Transcript

Evolution on Trial | Monkeytown | American History Tellers | Podcast

From American History Tellers · Episode page · Watch on YouTube

· 37 min · 6,566 words · 50 timestamped sections

This is the full, timestamped transcript of "Evolution on Trial | Monkeytown | American History Tellers | Podcast", an episode of American History Tellers published July 16, 2025 (37 min, about 6,566 words). It mentions 11 people, works and ideas, including John Scopes, John T. Rston, Tom Stewart, American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU), ACLU.

What this episode is about

In Dayton, Tennessee, during late May 1925, the community is abuzz with anticipation for the Scopes Trial, where teacher John Scopes faces prosecution for teaching evolution, a contentious issue that ignites debates about science, religion, and education. Amidst the trial preparations, local merchants recognize the economic potential of the event, highlighting the clash between progressive ideas and traditional beliefs.

Key takeaways

  • Monkey business fueled by trial hype shows commerce can eclipse conviction in small-town America.
  • In '25 Dayton, evolution wasn't just science; it was a retail opportunity—a lesson in capitalism's unfiltered ambition.
  • Frank's reluctance reveals the deep social anxieties surrounding evolution—fear mingling with the scent of cigar smoke.
  • From 'Monkey Town' to headlines, the trial blurred lines between morality, education, and market savvy—welcome to America!
  • Scopes' trial: where the clash of faith and reason doubled as a bustling tourist attraction—irony served on a platter.

Who speaks in this episode?

What is discussed, and when

  1. – 5:00: John Scopes, Genesis, HL Mencken
  2. – 10:00: Tom Stewart, American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU), Roger Baldwin, John Scopes
  3. – 15:00: John Scopes, Roger Baldwin
  4. – 20:00: John Scopes, Dudley Field Malone
  5. – 25:00: John Scopes, John T. Rston, Tom Stewart
  6. – 30:00: John Scopes, John T. Rston, Genesis
  7. – 35:00: John Scopes
  8. – 37:05: John Scopes

Notable quotes from "Evolution on Trial | Monkeytown | American History Tellers | Podcast"

  • Dayton to decide whether there was sufficient evidence to formally indict Scopes. The district attorney, Tom Stewart, presented the case for the prosecution. He began by…
    about Tom Stewart · at
  • The presiding judge was John T. Rston, a conservative Christian circuit judge who was up for reelection. He relished the spotlight and believed that God had chosen him to…
    about John T. Rston · at
  • Protesters and labor organizers. The ACLU had sponsored this test case. So, in early June, John Scopes and lead council John Neil traveled to New York City to meet with ACLU…
    about John Scopes · at
  • Anything, I want to make sure science wins. Darrow's our best shot, and I'm sticking with it. And the case will have to proceed without my involvement.
    about Roger Baldwin · at
  • Reflected the values of everyday Americans. So to project the image of an all-American teacher, the ACLU staged photo ops with scopes in front of the Statue of Liberty in…
    about ACLU · at
  • Dayton Progressive Club hosted a banquet in Brian's honor where he gave a speech warning, The contest between evolution and Christianity is a duel to the death. By contrast, 2…
    about Genesis · at
  • Sitting in the stands, writer HL Manin concluded, It was obvious that the jury would be unanimously hot for Genesis.
    about HL Mencken · at

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

  • John Scopes — Person · Central defendant; high school teacher in the Scopes Trial · 12 mentions · first at
    He is the accused teacher whose case is used as a test case to challenge Tennessee’s anti-evolution law; his public image and legal strategy are managed by the defense/ACLU.
  • John T. Rston — Person · Presiding judge (mis-transcribed name) in the Scopes Trial · 3 mentions · first at
    He controls courtroom procedure and is depicted as a conservative Christian judge whose ambition and religious conviction shape rulings (fast-tracking, prayers, motions).
  • Tom Stewart — Person · Lead prosecutor (district attorney) in the Scopes Trial · 4 mentions · first at
    He presents the indictment evidence to the grand jury and serves as the prosecution’s day-to-day courtroom lead, with Bryan as the star addition.
  • Dudley Field Malone — Person · Defense attorney; prominent outside counsel aligned with ACLU effort · 2 mentions · first at
    He joins the defense team, partly motivated by personal animosity toward Bryan from prior government service, and is described as a witty courtroom speaker adding drama and publicity.
    Malone was eager to provide his own services to the defense because a decade earlier he had served under Brian in Woodrow Wilson's administration and he still harbored animosity toward his.
  • HL Mencken — Person · Referenced journalist/commentator covering the Scopes Trial · 1 mention · first at
    He supplies influential media framing—labeling Dayton “monkey town” and commenting on the jury’s pro-Genesis bias—reinforcing the episode’s theme of spectacle and press influence.
  • Roger Baldwin — Person · Referenced organizational leader; ACLU executive director · 4 mentions · first at
    He represents the ACLU’s strategic and reputational concerns, pushing to remove Darrow and keep the case narrowly focused on academic freedom rather than religion.
  • Arthur Garfield Hayes — Person · Defense attorney; ACLU general counsel / free speech advocate · 1 mention · first at
    He is identified as a key defense team member tied directly to the ACLU’s civil-liberties mission and legal support for the test case.
    Former boss. Malone was witty and deonire and he could be counted on to deliver a stirring speech in court. The fourth and final member of the defense team was Arthur Garfield…

Books & papers

  • Hunter Civic Biology — Book · Referenced work · 1 mention · first at
    The textbook used by John Scopes to teach evolution, central to the prosecution's case against him.
    Scopes. The district attorney, Tom Stewart, presented the case for the prosecution. He began by introducing the textbook Hunter Civic Biology and reading out passages that…

Companies & orgs

  • American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) — Company · Business focus · 2 mentions · first at
    The ACLU sponsored the test case against the anti-evolution law, playing a pivotal role in the defense strategy.
    Often working without pay defending protesters and labor organizers. The ACLU had sponsored this test case. So, in early June, John Scopes and lead council John Neil traveled…
  • ACLU — Company · Business focus · 1 mention · first at
    The ACLU is involved in the defense of John Scopes, highlighting its role in civil liberties and legal battles.

Concepts & topics

  • Genesis — Concept · Key argument · 3 mentions · first at
    The biblical book of Genesis is central to the debate over evolution, representing the religious perspective in the trial.

Full transcript with timestamps

Wonder. Imagine it's late May 1925 in Dayton, Tennessee. You're the owner of a dry goods store on Market Street, and you're standing in the window arranging a display of stuffed monkey dolls. You look up to see a regular customer named Frank walk through the door. He takes a long drag on his cigar as he eyes your display. What? You're selling toy monkeys now? Nah, just responding to the demands of the market. Hey, would you mind giving me a hand with something? Well, maybe what? You reach behind you and pull out a large sign you've been working on. Above a drawing of a monkey swinging from a coconut tree are words painted in bright red, "Stop monkeying around," and start shopping. Frank squints at the sign and shakes his head.

What in the world's for the trial of Mr. Scopes, you know, the fellow that taught evolution over at the high school. Folks are going to be coming to Dayton from all over, and I've got to get ready. Well, I know about the trial, and I don't like it one bit. I'm glad they passed that law. I mean, imagine teaching kids that we came from apes. It's blasphemy. Well, what does it matter? Monkeys are no monkeys. Evolution's all in the past. You got to think about the future is what I say. Well, it matters to me. It's not like the law is going to get overturned. Not with William Jennings Brian on the prosecution. He's got them licked. In the meantime, though, there's money to be made. People are going to travel miles to see him thunder on about Genesis. You position a stool in front of a wooden beam and climb up the steps.

Hey, could you pass me that hammer on the shelf behind you? Come hold this up. Frank rolls his eyes, but does as he's told and holds the sign against the beam where it will be visible to people passing by. You tilt your head, eyeballing to make sure it's straight. Hey, push it up uh a little to the right. How's this? Uh, looks good. You grab a nail from your shirt pocket and hammer the sign into place. Satisfied that it's secure, you step down to admire your work. Well, ain't that a beauty? If you say so. You really think this trial is going to drum up business?

Oh, I know it will. I'm already selling those toy monkeys, and the trial hasn't even started yet. Yeah. For how much? 50 cents. 50 cents. For how many? 50 cents each. And people are buying them at that price. I'm selling them as fast as I can unpack them. Frank takes another puff of his cigar and scratches the back of his neck. Well, maybe all this monkey business ain't so bad. Getting folks in stores bringing money into town. Just as long as our kids aren't getting corrupted. I don't think you have anything to worry about. This is a god-fearing town. Nothing's really changed except now. More customers, more money. Frank nods. All right. Well, I'm glad for you. Just don't expect me to buy any of those monkey dolls.

You give Frank a hearty clap on the shoulder. You're counting down the days until the trial begins. You don't really care about who wins, just as long as there's money in your pocket when it's all over

from Wondery. I'm Lindsey Graham and this is American History Tellers. Our history, your story. In May 1925, the small town of Dayton, Tennessee, eagerly anticipated the looming trial of John Scopes, the high school science teacher accused of violating the state's law banning the teaching of evolution in public schools. Local merchants hoping to cash in on the publicity filled their stores with monkey themed souvenirs and shop window slogans. But while Dayton's merchants prepared for incoming crowds, the prosecution and defense teams plotted their legal strategies. The anti-evolution crusader and three-time presidential candidate William Jennings Bryan prepared to go up against the famous criminal defender Clarence Darrow, known as the attorney for the damned. But no matter how carefully they crafted their strategies, no matter how many witnesses they summoned or headlines they chased, neither side

could truly prepare for what would unfold when religion and science finally had their day in court. This is episode two, Monkey Town. In May 1925, the citizens of Dayton, Tennessee threw themselves into preparations for the trial of John Scopes. A group of civic boosters voted to raise a $5,000 advertising fund to promote local businesses during the trial. One resident explained, "Since Dayton had found her way into the headlines all over the country, I cannot see why Dayton should not reap the benefits." Journalist HL Manin dubbed Dayton monkey town, and the monkey quickly became the symbol of the looming trial over evolution. Local businesses decorated their shops with pictures of monkeys. Robinson's drugstore offered a Simeon soda. and even the constable placed a sign on his motorcycle that read Monkeyville Police. Meanwhile, the legal proceedings against Scopes moved forward. On May 25th, a grand jury

convened at the Ray County Courthouse in Dayton to decide whether there was sufficient evidence to formally indict Scopes. The district attorney, Tom Stewart, presented the case for the prosecution. He began by introducing the textbook Hunter Civic Biology and reading out passages that explained how humans evolve from earlier life forms through natural selection. Next, he called on three male students to testify that Scopes had used this textbook to teach evolution. Scopes had encouraged the students to testify against him and he had carefully coached them in their answers. But when questioned by reporters, the boy seemed confused about the particulars of evolution. One student told a journalist, "I believe in parts of evolution, but I don't believe in the monkey business." A reporter lamented the students poor understanding of the science, affirming this was the real crime established in the jury room.

The presiding judge was John T. Rston, a conservative Christian circuit judge who was up for reelection. He relished the spotlight and believed that God had chosen him to oversee this trial. His blend of personal ambition and religious conviction would shape the proceedings. He had already fast-tracked the case by convening the grand jury in special session and offering to start the trial within a month's time. Now he was determined to secure an indictment against Scopes. And after lead prosecutor Tom Stewart finished his presentation, Rston read out the Tennessee anti-evolution statute in the entire first chapter of Genesis. He all but instructed the grand jury to indict, describing the evil example of a teacher openly and flagrantly violating the law of the land. The jurors did as they were told and quickly returned with an indictment against Scopes. Rston concluded the court session by

scheduling the trial to begin in Dayton on July 10th. Both the prosecution and defense would spend the next 6 weeks preparing for what the press was already hailing as the trial of the century. It pitted two very different legal teams against each other. For the prosecution, district attorney Tom Stewart would serve as lead prosecutor, assisted by three Daytonbased attorneys, as well as star lawyer William Jennings Bryan. During May and June, Brian traveled up and down the East Coast making public speeches attacking Evolution. But despite his busy schedule, the prosecutors managed to meet for two joint planning sessions, and Brian was open about the prosecution strategy. In his public statements, he was adamant that the trial was about defending the right of the state legislature to control public education as opposed to a debate over evolution itself. He anticipated a speedy trial that would

end with a conviction. But privately, Brian hoped not only to win, but to discredit evolution through expert testimony. He wanted a moral victory as well as a legal one. But because of his lack of trial experience and his unfamiliarity with Tennessee law, Brian delegated the particulars of the case to local attorneys. Meanwhile, he took charge of recruiting anti-evolution scientists and theologians to serve as expert witnesses. But he had a hard time finding witnesses willing to testify against evolution who were also credible scientific experts. And Brian grew increasingly worried about the prosecutor's lack of courtroom experience compared to the formidable lineup of trial attorneys who had joined the defense. The defense team had grown since the disheveled Knoxville law professor John Neil drove himself to Dayton and appointed himself as league counsel. At the time that the famous criminal defense attorney Clarence

Darrow joined the case, he was consulting with a friend, international divorce attorney Dudley Field Malone. Malone was eager to provide his own services to the defense because a decade earlier he had served under Brian in Woodrow Wilson's administration and he still harbored animosity toward his former boss. Malone was witty and deonire and he could be counted on to deliver a stirring speech in court. The fourth and final member of the defense team was Arthur Garfield Hayes, a free speech advocate and general counsel for the American Civil Liberties Union, often working without pay defending protesters and labor organizers. The ACLU had sponsored this test case. So, in early June, John Scopes and lead council John Neil traveled to New York City to meet with ACLU officials. They quickly learned that the ACLU wanted Darrow off the case, fearing his involvement would turn the trial into a

broader assault against religion itself. Imagine it's early June 1925 in New York City and you're sitting down at a conference table at the headquarters of the American Civil Liberties Union. You and your lawyer, John Neil, are meeting with the ACLU Executive Director, Roger Baldwin. Ever since they arrested you for teaching evolution, things have been moving fast on the legal front. Perhaps too fast. So Baldwin called you to discuss your legal strategy. You and Neil exchange nervous glances as Baldwin paces back and forth. Well, I don't know what you were thinking, accepting Daryl's help without consulting me or the team. Neil's eyes flash with anger.

You shake your head at him and clear your throat. Well, Mr. Neil was thinking about winning. We'd be crazy to turn down Daryl. He's offering his services for free. I mean, Clarence Darrow. Baldwin stops and folds his arms across his chest. Well, be that as it may, I'd like to discuss alternative options. I've spoken with two law professors who may be interested. They're bright, serious men with stellar reputations. One's from Harvard. The other teaches at Colombia. Well, do they have any experience in criminal defense? No, but they have written extensively on academic freedom. This isn't a murder trial. We don't need an expert in defending anarchists and killers. Darl doesn't belong anywhere near this case.

He's more interested in garnering headlines than defeating the anti-evolution law. Well, with all due respect, they're going to be headlines either way with William Jennings Bryan on the prosecution. Why should Brian hog all the attention? I think we need some publicity on our side, too. Yes, but with Darl in the case, the press is going to frame this as a great battle between atheism and religion, between Darwin and the Bible, between Darl and Brian. But this is supposed to be about civil liberties, about the state of Tennessee stifling academic freedom.

Well, the way I see it, it's about me. You know, I I don't know Daryl well, but I do know that last year he saved two murderers from the electric chair. This isn't a murder trial, but it's still my neck on the line, my name in the headlines, and I want the best defense lawyer there is. Baldwin throws up his hands in frustration. This is supposed to be a test case, not a boxing match. Well, it still is, and more than anything, I want to make sure science wins. Darrow's our best shot, and I'm sticking with it. And the case will have to proceed without my involvement.

You can deal with my colleagues here at the ACLU, but I I'm not going to be a part of this circus. Baldwin walks out the door. You look at Neil and he just shrugs. It seems like you've lost the support of the top man at the ACLU, but you wonder if that really matters. You're going into battle this summer, and with Darrow, you know you've got a fighter by your side. When John Scopes traveled to New York, ACLU officials tried to persuade him to kick Clarence Darrow off the case. Scopes would later write, "The arguments against Darrow were various, that he was too radical, that he was a headline hunter, that the trial would become a circus." But as Scopes found himself at the center of a growing media frenzy, he insisted that Daryl was the man with the right experience for the job. He later recalled, "It was going to be a down in the mud fight. I felt that situation demanded an Indian fighter rather than

someone who graduated from the proper military academy. But Darl wasn't the only attorney the ACLU didn't approve of. They also tried to persuade Malone, a divorced Catholic, to stay away from Dayton and assist the case from afar. But Malone refused to back down in what the Chattanooga Times called another victory for those who want to introduce a dramatic setting into the case. The jazz factor, as it were. When a reporter questioned Scopes about Darrow and Malone, Scopes simply replied, "I would certainly be an imbecile not to accept them." But although ACLU officials had failed to assemble the legal team they wanted, they did succeed in carefully managing Scopes public appearances. Both the defense and the prosecution sought to demonstrate that their arguments reflected the values of everyday Americans. So to project the image of an all-American teacher, the ACLU staged photo ops with scopes in front of the

Statue of Liberty in Capitol Hill. At the same time, they urged him to avoid speaking about his personal political and religious beliefs. And the ACLU also arranged public appearances with America's most prominent evolutionary scientists to demonstrate scientific support for Scopes's case. But while the ACLU focused on optics, the defense team got to work on strategy. As a test case, their goal was not to get Scopes acquitted, but to secure a conviction that could be appealed. They wanted a higher court, ideally the US Supreme Court, to declare the laws forbidding the teaching of evolution were unconstitutional.

But in order to attack these anti-evolution laws, they needed to frame the case in the right way. They plan to focus not just on the actions of scopes, but on larger issues of intellectual freedom, science, and religious interpretation. This broader view would give them a better chance of proving that the Tennessee law violated constitutionally protected freedoms when their appeal reached the higher courts. And in the meantime, they could use the trial to educate the public about evolution. And just like William Jennings Bryan, the defense made no secret of their plans. In the weeks leading up to the trial, the defense lawyers made frequent public statements announcing distinguished scientists who might appear in court as expert witnesses despite not having any guarantee that the scientist would actually testify. These statements were designed not only to build public support for their side, but also to keep

the prosecution off balance. Because when Brian and the other prosecutors learned of the defense's plan to use expert scientific testimony, they were determined to oppose as part of their goal of keeping the case to a narrow discussion of state control over public education. So Brian depicted the defense's proposed expert witnesses as a group of scientific elites trying to override the will of the common people. But Darrow did his best to undermine Brian's claims of elitism with his downto-earth manner. In the month leading up to the trial, Darl made speeches and public statements promoting the defense. And in late June 1925, he made high-profile visits to Dayton and Knoxville, where despite his reputation as a radical and an agnostic, Daryl won over the locals with his foly manor.

Scopes remembered it was easy to like him. He drawled comfortably and hadn't any heirs. But while he was trying to win over the locals, Darl always kept a national audience in mind, consistently framing the trial as a fight for tolerance and personal freedom, warning, "The country has fallen upon evil times. It seems that every organization has some law it is endorsing to force upon the people." Darl and Brian viewed this case as a serious moral issue. For Brian, democracy and majority rule were at stake, and for Darrow, individual freedom was under threat. But despite the attorney's warnings, the nation's media was treating the looming trial as a joke. And soon, the circus was on its way to Dayton.

In early July 1925, the residents of Dayton, Tennessee, transformed their town in anticipation of an influx of visitors. The Southern Railway added extra passenger service to Dayton and workers built the county's first airirstrip in a nearby pasture so that newsreel cameramen could fly out footage of the trial to northern cities. In the meantime, state officials sent experts to oversee sanitation and ensure that there was safe drinking water. The finest hotel in town raised its rates and then even placed cotss in the hallways to make more room for guests, while a temporary tourist camp was also set up to accommodate the large numbers of people expected to stay as the trial proceeded. Other preparations were made to facilitate media coverage of the trial. Western Union stationed 22 telegraph operators in town and strung extra wires to nearby cities. A storage loft above a hardware store was turned

into a makeshift press room, and workers updated the courthouse with a fresh coat of paint, 500 additional seats, a bank of telephones, and a newsreel camera platform. The jury box was moved from the center of the chamber to the corner to make room for three microphones connected to loudspeakers installed on the courthouse lawn. This trial was the first in American history to be broadcast live with the microphones transmitting the proceedings not just to the lawn outside, but to millions of Americans across the nation through the Chicago radio station WGN.

200 reporters would cover the event for newspapers as far away as London, joined by dozens of photographers and newsre camera crews. Officials also roped off six blocks of the town's main street to turn it into a pedestrian mall, which was soon packed with vendors and proilitizers. Peddlers sold Bibles, toy monkeys, lemonade, and hot dogs. Preachers took to the streets to shout about the evils of evolution, and atheists drew crowds as they spoke out against Christianity. Visitors could even shake hands with a trained chimpanzee dressed in a plaid suit and fedora. A New York Times reporter who described the scene concluded, "Whatever the deep significance of the trial, if it has any, there is no doubt that it has attracted some of the world's champion freaks." But despite the circus-like atmosphere in Dayton, most Americans were not deeply invested in the debate over evolution. Public interest in the trial was more focused

on the famous figures involved and the prospect of a dramatic face off. As one tourist told a reporter, he simply wanted to see the show. And there could be no doubt the main attraction of the show was William Jennings Bryan. Despite a July heat wave that sent temperatures soaring into the 90s, crowds swarm the station to greet Brian as he stepped off his train from Miami 3 days before the trial was set to begin. By arriving early to Dayton, Brian was able to monopolize the spotlight. He strolled through town munching on radishes, which he believed to be good for his diet.

Along the way, he stopped to pose for cameras and speak to reporters. The Dayton Progressive Club hosted a banquet in Brian's honor where he gave a speech warning, "The contest between evolution and Christianity is a duel to the death." By contrast, 2 days later, the New York defense attorneys arrived in Dayton without much fanfare. Divorce lawyer Dudley Malone joked, "Am I too late for the trial? I have been reading Mr. Brian's speeches in the newspapers, and I thought the trial had already begun." Later that same evening, Clarence Darrow rolled into town on the last train. Newsre cameras captured footage of him embracing his client John Scopes at the depot. But for the most part, Scopes faded into the background, a bit player in the looming contest between science and faith starring Brian and Darrow. Before leaving New York, Clarence Darl had summed up the stakes of the case, declaring Scopes is not on

trial. Civilization is on trial. Nothing will satisfy us but broad victory. a knockout that will prove that America is founded on liberty and not on narrow, mean, intolerable, and brainless prejudice of soulless religio maniacs. The following morning, nearly 1,000 people streamed into the Ray County Courthouse for the trial's opening, walking beneath a banner with the words, "Read your Bible," that locals had hung over the courthouse door. Some arrived as early as 7:00 a.m., 2 hours ahead of schedule. Reporters claimed the best seats in front while spectators spilled out into the aisles and hallways, craning their necks for a view of the action. Overflow crowds sat under the shade of maple trees on the courthouse lawn. Some farmers and overalls had even traveled over mountain roads and muledrawn wagons for the day's proceedings, though they were not the wealthy tourists Dayton leaders had

hoped for. But there were still plenty of people to witness the spectacle despite temperatures predicted to reach 100°. The crowds who jammed the upstairs courtroom waved palm leaf fans in the air, desperately seeking relief from the stifling heat, made worse by the exploding flash powder of the photographers's cameras. One reporter compared the courtroom to a blast furnace. Then, at 8:30 a.m., Judge John Rston walked into the courtroom with a Bible under his arm. Because of the heat, he relaxed the rules for courtroom attire, allowing the attorneys to do away with coat and ties. but he banned smoking to the disappointment of most of the attorneys who were forced to resort to chewing tobacco instead using spatons carefully placed around the courtroom.

Next, Darrow and the other defense lawyers arrived. As Daryl shed his coat, he revealed his trademark pastel shirt and colorful suspenders. Local attorney Neil was as unckempt as ever, anxiously chomping on a half burnt cigar. Scopes sat at the defense table with his sleeves rolled up to his elbows, leading one reporter to remark that he looked like a college senior on vacation. Scopes tried to hide his nerves, later writing, "The whole scene to me was unnatural. I realized that I was on display." Then, just before 9:00, Brian entered the courtroom alongside District Attorney Tom Stewart and the other prosecutors. The crowd burst into applause. Brian and Daryl clased each other's shoulders and posed for pictures with Judge Rston. Already Brian was struggling to withstand the heat. His sleeves were rolled as high as they would go, and he often fanned himself with a large palm leaf. Then Judge Rston

sat down behind the bench and called for order. He opened the trial with a lengthy prayer from a local fundamentalist minister. Scopes later called this sermon interminable. While the prosecutors bowed their heads during the prayer, the defense attorneys looked out the window. Then after the minister concluded, preliminary procedures took up the rest of the morning. Shortly before noon, Rston broke for lunch and the spectators all spilled out onto the courthouse lawn. Outside, visitors mingled. A string quartet performed and children competed in carnival games. But soon the crowd returned to the courtroom to witness the start of jury selection.

The baiff ushered in 20 potential jurors and Rston had his young daughter choose names out of a hat. One by one, these potential jurors stood and faced questioning. But rather than feeling a sense of civic duty, most were eager to get a front row seat to the spectacle. Imagine it's July 10th, 1925 at the Ray County Courthouse in Dayton, Tennessee. You're the defense lawyer for John Scopes, and you and the other lawyers have just questioned three potential jurors. Prosecution has just finished questioning the next in line, a suntanned middle-aged man named JP Massingill. You rise from your chair and tug at your shirt collar. inwardly cursing the unbearable heat. Now, Mr.

Massingill, what's your occupation? Massing fiddles with a straw hat in his hands. I'm a minister, sir. The corners of your mouth twitch. I see. And do you preach on the subject of evolution? No, I I don't think so. That is, I I I don't think I've preached on evolution as a sole topic. Well, let me clarify. Do you ever preach on the subject of evolution in any capacity? Um, I have may have mentioned it in connection with other subjects once or twice. I see. And and when you mentioned it, were you uh for or against it? Well, I'm strictly for the Bible, sir. I'm not asking you about the Bible, Mr. Massill. I'm asking you about evolution. Did you preach for or against evolution? Massagill scratches his head and looks to Judge Rston. Um, uh, your honor, is is that a fair question? Rston nods. So, Massagill draws a breath. Well, I preached against it, of course. The courtroom erupts in applause. Rston bangs his gavvel, his

face turning red. You fold your arms across your chest and look at the reporters in the gallery, hoping they're recording this clear show of prejudice against your case. Mr. Massing, knowing that you have preached against evolution in the past, do you think you would be a fair juror in this case? I think I could be. Have you heard about Mr. Scopes? Yes, sir. Have you heard that he teaches evolution? Yes, sir. I have heard that. And in your opinion, is what he teaches contrary to the Bible? Yes, sir, it is. So, you have the opinion that evolution is contrary to the Bible and that my client has been teaching evolution. That is your opinion? Yes, sir. You turn to Judge Rston. Your honor, I've heard enough. I would like this man excused. I can serve, sir. I I swear I can be fair.

Your honor, I cannot accept a juror who preaches against evolution from the pulpit. Judge Rston sigh and nods. Mr. Massing, you are excused. Massing steps back with a look of bitter disappointment on his face. You certainly don't expect to assemble a jury that believes in evolution in rural Tennessee, but you do think it's only fair that they hear the evidence with an open mind. This man's glaring bias is just too much for you to stomach. The jury pool for the trial of John Scopes consisted mostly of uneducated church-going white male farmers. Several admitted they did not know what evolution was and many had fundamentalist leanings. Clarence Darrow later recalled, "We realized that a jury drawn from Dayton, Tennessee would not allow scopes to go scot-free." But even though Daryl knew the deck was stacked against him, and he and the ACLU were expecting a conviction that they could appeal to a higher court, Daryl managed

to have a few jurors excluded because under Tennessee trial law, each side was allowed to issue three challenges. One of those he dismissed was a minister who initially denied, but then admitted to preaching against evolution. But Darrow did accept others who didn't believe in evolution as long as they said they were willing to approach the trial with an open mind. Scopes later reflected it was part of Daryl's philosophy of choosing juries. He would take a juror who seemed opposed to him if he thought the man was honest. The jury selection was completed in just over 2 hours. And in the end, those selected included just one non-churchgoer.

Sitting in the stands, writer HL Manin concluded, "It was obvious that the jury would be unanimously hot for Genesis. The most that Mr. Darrow could hope for was to sneak in a few bold enough to declare publicly that they would have to hear the evidence against Scopes before condemning him. So with jury selection complete, Rston adjourned court for the weekend. Brian had not yet spoken in court and did not plan to until it was time for closing arguments, but he was determined to do what he could to curry favor in the court of public opinion. So with the trial on pause for 2 days, Brian got ready to appeal to the audiences of Dayton's packed churches.

As temperatures climbed and tempers flared, Darrow and his team had a plan of their own to regain the offensive. After the rockous opening day of the trial, Dayton quieted down over the weekend. Most visitors fled town for the entertainments of nearby Chattanooga or the cooler temperatures of the Great Smoky Mountains. But William Jennings Bryan stayed behind in Dayton to prepare speeches against evolution and to coordinate potential rebuttal witnesses in case the judge allowed the defense to introduce expert testimony. And on Sunday morning, he delivered a sermon to a standing room only audience at the local Methodist church. Later that afternoon, he spoke to another 3,000 people on the courthouse lawn. One of the defense lawyers complained to a reporter declaring, "What is that but an attempt to influence the judgment of the community?" Court resumed the next day, Monday, July 13th, 1925. Once again,

Judge John Rston opened the proceedings with a prayer. Darrow informally asked Rston to refrain given the religious nature of the case, but Rston dismissed him and called forward another conservative pastor. In a clear reference to the evolution debate, this pastor began by calling God the creator of the heaven and the earth and the sea and all that is in them. The second day of the trial then began and presented a major opportunity to the defense and they were ready to seize their moment. Law professor John Neil stood and submitted a motion to throw out the indictment of John Scopes on the ground that it violated the Tennessee state constitution. Neil was asking Rston to dismiss the charges against Scopes before going through with the trial.

This was not unusual. Defense lawyers often began cases by asking the judge to throw out the indictment. But in this case, it would give the defense a chance to argue the constitutional issues at the heart of the case. If rston denied the motion, the trial would proceed, but the defense would at least have an argument entered onto the record for future appeals. If Rston approved the motion and threw out the indictment as unconstitutional, then the prosecution would likely appeal the decision. Either way, the defense would achieve their goal of arguing that the anti-evolution law was unconstitutional before a higher court. In response to Neil's motion, Rston sent the jury out of the room, much to the disappointment of the jurors who were eager to witness some rhetorical fireworks. But under established procedure, it would be up to the judge alone to rule on constitutional issues. Then, once the

jury was cleared, both sides made their case. The defense saved Darrow for the end to make sure he got the last word. He read aloud from the Tennessee Constitution's guarantee of religious freedom and argued that under the Constitution, the state legislature could not mandate a curriculum that favored one religious view over another. He affirmed that the anti-evolution law favored Christianity, declaring, "It makes the Bible the yard stick to measure every man's intellect, to measure every man's intelligence, and to measure every man's learning." He insisted that the state had no more right to promote the Bible than the Quran, the Book of Mormon, or any other religious text. Pacing the floor with his thumbs hooked in his lavender suspenders, he decrieded fundamentalism for spreading ignorance and hatred. He branded the anti-evolution law as brazen and bold an attempt to destroy liberty as was ever seen in the Middle Ages. He

continued on for 2 hours until rston interrupted him at the scheduled time for adjournment. Even then, Darl spoke for another 10 minutes, and at last he delivered his dramatic conclusion, declaring, "After a while, your honor, it is man against man and creed against creed until we're marching backward to the glorious ages of the 16th century, when bigots burned the men who dared to bring any intelligence and enlightenment and culture to the human mind." When Darl was done, the courtroom sat in stunned silence, but the defense team rushed forward to congratulate him.

Telegraph operators transmitted a record 200,000 words from Dayton that day, and Daryl's speech was printed in full in newspapers across the country, with the national media heaping praise on Daryl. The New York Times wrote, "His words fell with crushing force, his satire dropped with sledgehammer effect upon those who heard him, and as a thunderstorm rained down on Dayton that night, reporters joked that Darrow had brought the wrath of God upon the town. The storm disrupted power though and in the absence of electric light, Judge Rston was unable to do his work. So when court resumed the next day, he insisted he needed more time before issuing his ruling. The only business for the day was the opening prayer.

Imagine it's Tuesday, July 14th, 1925 at the Ray County Courthouse in Dayton, Tennessee. You're a circuit judge presiding over the trial, John Scopes. The baiff has just called the courtroom to order. And with a Bible under your arm, you walk up to the bench and take your seat. Sweeping your gaze across the packed courtroom, you lock eyes with Reverend Stribbling, the local minister you've invited here today. Reverend Stribbling, will you open with a prayer? Defense attorney Clarence Darrow springs to his feet, his face taught with anger.

Objection, your honor. What is it, Mr. Darl? I object to opening court with yet another prayer. Mr. Darrow, I am responsible for the conduct of the court, and it has always been my custom to open with prayer. I see no reason why I should not continue this tradition. Your objection is overruled. Your honor, I have no objection to opening court with a prayer the first day, but now this is the third day in a row you've called for prayer. Given the religious nature of this case, I believe it is inappropriate. It could influence the jury. The juryy's not here, Mr. Darrow.

Yes, but if you persist with these daily prayers, it may sway their deliberations. Your honor, I have no objection to prayer in private, but I do object to bringing it into a court of law. You have no right to do it. This is a courtroom, not a church. Darrow is getting on your nerves, and you've heard enough. Mr. Darrow, I see no reason why prayer should influence the jury. I've instructed the ministers I've invited to make no reference to the issues involved in this case. It is my practice to look to divine guidance whether I am on or off the bench and I see no reason why I should not continue. Your objection is overruled. Reverend Stribbling, will you please open the court with a prayer?

Stribbling stands and bows his head while Daryl slumps back in his chair. And you hope this is the last complaint you hear from him. However famous he may be, you're in no mood to allow him to come and tell you how to run your courtroom. On the third day of the trial of John Scopes, Clarence Darrow issued a formal objection to public prayer in the courtroom, framing it as a clear show of bias in a case about religion. But Rston overruled him, so Darl sought out a compromise. After lunch, he petitioned for Rston to invite prayers from clergymen who did not represent fundamentalist churches. Rston referred the petition to the local pastors association, asking them to oversee the matter. This decision marked a small victory for Darl because for the rest of the trial, the association would alternate prayers between fundamentalist and more modernist clergymen. But as the third day of the trial wore on, tensions

mounted in the sweltering courtroom. With the power still out, there was no relief to be found from electric fans. So participants sat in the oppressive heat, waiting for Rston to issue his ruling on whether the indictment would stand. A rumor began to spread that a wire reporter had scooped him and leaked his ruling to newspapers. Rston heard this and was furious. He appointed a committee to investigate the rumor and then adjourned court once again without issuing his decision. That night, a group of reporters gathered in a hotel room with a stash of bootleg liquor and staged a mock trial for the young wire reporter. It turned out the rumors were true. The young man had leaked the story about Rston's decision to let the indictment stand to the papers. But after several drinks and coaxing from his peers, the accused finally revealed his source, Rston himself. The judge had informed the young reporter that the

trial would resume after the ruling, accidentally indicating that the indictment would stand. But the official ruling came on the morning of July 15th. After 2 days of deliberation, Rston denied the defense's motion to quash the indictment and thereby affirming the constitutionality of the anti-evolution law. Now all that remained was to determine the defendant's guilt. John Scopes would be tried for the crime of teaching evolution. And the showdown the country had been waiting for could finally begin from Wondery. This is episode two of our three-part series, Evolution on Trial from American History Tellers. In the next episode, the prosecution and defense battle over the inclusion of expert witnesses. William Jennings Bryan addresses the court for the first time with a blistering speech against evolution. And Clarence Darrow makes a surprise move to bring the trial to a dramatic climax.

American History Tellers is hosted, edited, and produced by me, Lindsey Graham, for Airship. Audio editing by Christian Paraga. Sound design by Molly Bach. Supervising sound designer Matthew Filler. Music by Lindsey Graham. This episode is written by Ellie Stanton, edited by Dorian Marina, produced by Alita Rosanski. Managing producer Desi Bllelock, senior managing producer Callum PL, senior producer Andy Herman. Executive producers are Jenny Lowour Beckman, Marshall Louie, and Aaron Olity for Wondery.

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "Evolution on Trial | Monkeytown | American History Tellers | Podcast"?

Lindsey Graham (Host), John Scopes (Guest), William Jennings Bryan (Guest), Clarence Darrow (Guest), Tom Stewart (Guest), John T. Rston (Guest), Roger Baldwin (Guest), Dudley Field Malone (Guest).

What is "Evolution on Trial | Monkeytown | American History Tellers | Podcast" about?

In Dayton, Tennessee, during late May 1925, the community is abuzz with anticipation for the Scopes Trial, where teacher John Scopes faces prosecution for teaching evolution, a contentious issue that ignites debates about science, religion, and education. Amidst the trial preparations, local merchants recognize the economic potential of the event, highlighting the clash between progressive ideas…

What is mentioned in this American History Tellers episode?

11 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including John Scopes, John T. Rston, Tom Stewart, American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU), ACLU, Genesis. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "Evolution on Trial | Monkeytown | American History Tellers | Podcast"?

The episode runs 37 min; the transcript is about 6,566 words in 50 timestamped sections.

More from American History Tellers

About this transcript: the episode's spoken words as captioned on YouTube, split into timestamped sections. Reclip.Me locates every person, work and idea in the text, keeps the time it is first named, and quotes the words around it verbatim. Last updated January 24, 2026.