Transcript

Elizabeth Smart | Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard

From Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard · Episode page · Watch on YouTube

· 2 h 41 min · 30,111 words · 838 timestamped sections

This is the full, timestamped transcript of "Elizabeth Smart | Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard", an episode of Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard published January 21, 2026 (2 h 41 min, about 30,111 words). It mentions 8 people, works and ideas, including Brian Mitchell, Kidnapped: Elizabeth Smart, Wanda Barzee, Allstate, TurboTax.

What this episode is about

The discussion centers on Elizabeth Smart's extraordinary story of survival following her abduction in 2002, touching on the profound challenges she faced, including sexual assault, and emphasizing her remarkable resilience and positive outlook. The episode also highlights a recent documentary about her experience, providing a meaningful context to her journey and offering an important trigger warning due to the sensitive nature of the topics discussed.

Key takeaways

  • 10,000 episodes means over 320,000 minutes of wisdom—virtually a lifetime of expert opinions in one podcast!
  • Elizabeth Smart's journey from abduction to empowerment reminds us that resilience often sprouts from the darkest experiences.
  • Trigger warnings matter! Acknowledging tough themes lets audiences brace for impact—especially in Elizabeth's haunting tale.
  • Merch to celebrate a milestone? Clever marketing is the 'thank you' your loyal listeners didn’t know they needed.
  • The conversation around serious topics like abduction can spark valuable dialogues—even over a family movie night!

Who speaks in this episode?

What is discussed, and when

  1. – 15:00: Kidnapped: Elizabeth Smart, Mormon, Kidnapping
  2. – 45:00: John Walsh, Brian Mitchell, Mormon, Kidnapping
  3. – 1:00:00: Wanda Barzee, Brian Mitchell, Kidnapping
  4. – 1:15:00: Brian Mitchell, Mormon
  5. – 1:30:00: Wanda Barzee, Kidnapping
  6. – 2:00:00: Kidnapped: Elizabeth Smart
  7. – 2:41:02: Kidnapping

Notable quotes from "Elizabeth Smart | Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard"

  • That's where it ends. Yeah, this story is so unbelievable in so many ways. And there's an incredible doc out now on Netflix called Kidnapped Elizabeth Smart and it's an incredibly well-made documentary.
    about Kidnapped: Elizabeth Smart · at
  • So, I think I already had it because people I don't feel like people these days talk about kidnappings a lot, but it was being talked about back then.
    about Kidnapping · at
  • John Walsh from like America's Most Wanted had become like a huge support to my parents. So, my dad had gotten pretty close with him. And my dad had told John, Mary Katherine.
    about John Walsh · at
  • Hosted the thing described it was in 2002 in Salt Lake, you have a very obvious Mormon culture and then you have a pretty thriving counterculture and there would be these kind…
    about Mormon · at
  • Like I was just like I mean Wanda Barzi, her hand just like clamped down on my thigh and I was just paralyzed.
    about Wanda Barzee · at
  • Like another nail in the coffin so why not? And one of the things they brought up was a letter that Brian Mitchell had written, I think it was like to his mom or someone, but…
    about Brian Mitchell · at

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

  • Brian Mitchell — Person · Referenced perpetrator (abductor/captor) · 3 mentions · first at
    Identified as the man who abducted Elizabeth Smart and used the alias “Emanuel”; discussed as a manipulative religious extremist and central perpetrator in the case.
  • Wanda Barzee — Person · Referenced perpetrator (accomplice/captor) · 3 mentions · first at
    Discussed as Mitchell’s accomplice and co-captor (alias “Hepsah”); described as enforcing control, participating in abuse dynamics, and later receiving a prison sentence and release.
  • John Walsh — Person · Referenced media advocate / crime TV host · 2 mentions · first at
    Presented as a key supporter to the Smart family; used his media platform to release the suspect sketch publicly, which helped identify “Emanuel” as Brian Mitchell.

Products & tech

Concepts & topics

  • Kidnapped: Elizabeth Smart — Media Product · Documentary featured in the episode · 2 mentions · first at
    The documentary is a significant part of the discussion and context of Elizabeth Smart's story.
  • Mormon — Concept · 3 mentions · first at
  • Kidnapping — Concept · 6 mentions · first at

Full transcript with timestamps

Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. Experts on expert ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding. Happy 10,000th episode.

Can you even believe it? I can't believe it. I think of it very much like AA, which is like you can't stay sober for 30 years, but you can stay sober for a day and then you can kind of blink and it is 30 years. It's like if you told us like, uh, okay, man, you're going to you're going to do a thousand. I'd be that's too we can't we can't we're not capable of that.

Yeah. But look at it. And one episode at a time we got to a thousand. That is very exciting.

I'm proud of us. Me too. And then what an incredible episode to have for our our thousandth. Um

Elizabeth Smart, which you know I think if you were on planet Earth in 2002, you knew about Elizabeth Smart, but he could be like me

and knew someone was abducted. But that's where it ends. Yeah, this story is so unbelievable in so many ways. And there's an incredible doc out now on Netflix called Kidnapped Elizabeth Smart and it's an incredibly well-made documentary.

This is such an interesting conversation and and very meaningful and heavy. Yeah. Yeah. So, I'm sometime hesitant to give trigger warnings for all episodes, but boy oh boy, this this one warrants a major major uh trigger warning.

Yes. Obviously, there's abduction, there's sexual assault, there's a lot a lot a lot of darkness in this story. Um, but I think you like us will find Elizabeth Smart to be impossibly well adjusted and

a positive outlook. Yeah, it's it's it's remarkable. Um, so so so so grateful to her for telling us her whole story. It's a hard one. Uh, but it's a great episode

and we're thankful to the armcheries for sticking around for 1,000 episodes. We love you guys so much

and even the ones that came in co if you're around for 500. A big high five. If you're around for one, we'll take it.

We'll take it. We'll take it. Um, all right. Please enjoy Elizabeth Smart. Hi. We're back right after the intro. This is very special because

it's our thousandth episode. Yeah. And you wanted to commemorate it. I did cuz it's really special and it's really rare.

It is. And it'll only happen once, Monica. This will be the only episode that's 1,000.

That's right. Um, and I am very proud of us for just sticking to it for this long,

but mostly just thankful to the armcheries because without them, we would not be able to still be here.

Yeah. They've really hung around for a lot of them. They've been on the ride with us and it's so so fun. So, I want to do something special and do a little very small um merch collection to celebrate the thousandth episode.

Yes. So, there is a t-shirt on the site that's very fun. It requires fast math, which is

That's right. Which is made me happy. That's for you. That's for Dax. And on the back of that shirt, it has all of the thousand guests, which is very fun.

Yes. And then there's a really fun sweatshirt and another sweatshirt, too. I'm not going to give it all away, but go check it out.

In a pair of engraved brass knuckles. Nope, that's not a That didn't make it. No, that didn't make the

the switchblade in there. Nope. That also we're sticking with the classics, the clothes.

So, go to armchairexpertpod.com and go to the store and it'll be there. It'll be there. And go ahead and get on the list and um you'll get your thousandth episode merch and we're happy to have you.

And on to the episode. He's very You want a shake? Hi. I'm a hugger. Hi. So, I set the bar which

You always do that to me and then I look like a pervert. What nicknames did you grow up with? with everyone.

No. Beth or Bit? We have a friend named Bit, which I think is so cute. I was I loved a girl across the street from me growing up named Betsy. And I'm I think her name is Liz.

Is Betsy the I could I mean I've heard Yeah, I've heard. Yeah, I've heard people go by Betsy.

Yeah. Or Liz. There's a lot Lizzy. Sky is the limit with Elizabeth. It is. But my mom was always like, "You are Elizabeth. You will go by Elizabeth."

Yeah. And so that's just what I've always been. Now I'm lazy. If someone has more than two syllables in your name, I'm like, we got to get down to one.

Maybe because I'm Dax. Yeah, you're just you're just projecting. And mommy, I'd prefer just man.

That's two. Probably. You could have done man. M man's very popular. M cup. Too much.

That's a lot. Too much. Is Elizabeth three? Elizabeth. Elizabeth four. But Elizabeth is such a pretty name. I understand why not wanting to shorten it out. I like the name Elizabeth. When is the last time you did an interview?

Right before. Right before you came from one. Are you exhausted? No, I'm good. Okay. What was the other one?

Um, it was just in in house at Netflix. Oh, sure. Um, I watched Kidnap last night and I made a really kind of questionable decision. I was like, I'm going to watch it with my daughters.

Oh, I was wondering. Yeah. Yeah. So, I watched it with my 11 and 12year-old and we all snuggled on the couch and ultimately I'm really glad I did. It gave it started a lot of conversations that I think are really good to have and uh and they got to see me ball uh at the end excessively and they love that. The the end [ __ ] me up. Uh, I'll get to specifically what that was about it, but um I guess first and foremost I was aware of all this and yet at the same time not. This is 2002.

Mhm. So I was 27. I just wasn't like dialed into everything that was going on. But now you and Monica are the exact same age virtually two months apart.

I was very aware of it. Did this give rise to your unnatural fear of being kidnapped? Would you credit Elizabeth?

So, I think I already had it because people I don't feel like people these days talk about kidnappings a lot, but it was being talked about back then. Like, it was like a fear. It was like a known, not a, you know.

Do you know anything about the statistics? Is it more or less? Does it change? I couldn't tell you if it was more or less now, but I know a person goes missing about every 70 seconds.

Wow. And every nine minutes that person's a child. Wow. Oh my god. That is Wow.

Every 70 seconds. So that means Yeah. By the end of this 110 people have gone missing is crazy. Let me ask you first. Your comfort level with talking about it seems high, but I definitely wanted to talk before we like got into stuff. I would never want to be going in any direction or anything that you wouldn't want to go in. But it am I right? You seem pretty comfortable.

No, you could you you can ask me whatever you want. Okay. You can also tell us if you're like actually I don't want to talk about that.

Yeah. Yeah. I've been talking about it a long time. Like you can ask away. Also, I feel like I've learned over the years how impactful stories are. I mean, again, like we can sit here and like chat about statistics. Actually, I'm not that great with numbers. Like, I forget them kind of easy.

But I remember stories. Yeah. And I feel like if someone's story is really meaningful or impactful, I'll remember that a lot better than if it's just like a fact. And so I guess for me, I also saw this as an opportunity to reach out to other survivors, other victims to let them know that they're not alone because again, I didn't feel like I heard people talk about

rape or sexual violence or abuse as a kid. And I definitely didn't hear anyone saying, "Well, that happened to me,"

right? And so I felt a lot of shame and embarrassment around what had happened. And um took a long time for me to get over that. And then as I started kind of in the advocacy world, I mean it was the same story everywhere I turned.

Yeah. So much shame, so much embarrassment, so much guilt. Um even though they're all victims. And so

I also just felt like this was an incredible opportunity to be on a stage that I could never imagine being on. a universal one.

Yeah. And just be able to hopefully reach out to other people to let them know they're not alone.

So, personally, and I do not want to compare at all apples to oranges cuz my mine's so far less severe, but I was sexually molested and I talked about it quite openly on here and some other places. And um I have my own baggage with all the things that come with that. Uh and similarly I wasn't having a lot of people come up to me and go like me too. But I would say over the years that has happened more and more and more and it's a a nice feeling I think. I mean, it's like you're alone and scared. And actually, I think maybe this is a hot take, but I think one of the saddest things I see is that when someone dies or heaven forbid is murdered, that's it. Like their life is done.

Yeah. But when I see too many survivors of sexual violence, um, they just stop living. They're alive,

but they stop living. Yeah. Yeah. And that loss of life, I find heartbreaking. Yes.

Because they have to be present for their own death in a way on Earth. Yes. Yeah. So, let's go before 2001. Let's start in ' 87. You have what seems at least from the dock to have a pretty idealic childhood up to 2002.

Where are we? Salt Lake City. Salt Lake City. Okay. Great. Mormon family. Yeah.

And in a very nice Federal Heights. Is that the name of it? Yeah. Federal Heights. So a very very nice affluent area of Salt Lake City.

Brothers and sisters. I'm second of six. Nice. Yeah. You rode horses. Yeah. You played the harp.

Yeah. You have a you have a bachelor's degree in playing the harp. Yeah. Well, I studied it.

You studied it? Okay. I actually didn't graduate. I actually had two professors pull me out of class one day and they just said, "Elizabeth, what what are you doing? Why are you here?"

And I was like, "What?" And they're like, "You don't need a degree for what you do.

We'll still be here in 5 10 50 years." Wow. go do what you're doing and come back when you are ready to be done with it. And I was like, wait, you're my teachers. I'm pretty sure you're the ones like supposed to be encouraging me not to drop out of

and they're incentivized for you to stay financially. Well, that's how you know it's real real good advice. But yeah, I ended up following it and I don't have my degree, but I don't regret it.

Yeah. Yeah. So, prior to 2002, what kind of sights had you set for your life? Like, I I don't want to sound like I didn't care about what happened in my life, but I couldn't imagine that my life would be like that remarkable

or that interesting. I mean, I thought it would just kind of be like run-of-the-mill. Like, I'd go to school, finish high school, go to college, eventually get married, have kids, like maybe teach harp lessons out of the house. Yeah.

And that would pretty much be it, right? So I Yeah. I didn't think anything could ever happen to me.

Yeah. So you shared a room with your sister? Mary Katherine. Mary Catherine. Yeah.

So Mary was nine and you were 14. Yeah. And you shared a bedroom or an actual bed?

We shared an actual bed. Oh, you shared an actual bed. Mhm. Yes. So what happens that night as you're sleeping? Well, I mean, you know, the night started off like totally normal. I mean, it was a little bit chaotic because like my grandpa had just died, my mom's dad had just died, and it was the end of the school year, and like that there's a lot of us, right? There's a lot of things going on.

Yeah. Was it a weekday? Sorry. I don't know why that matters to me. No, it was a week day. Like the next day was a school day.

Yeah. But it was still like a pretty normal day. like there was nothing bad about it or

like there were no I don't know feelings of foroding or anything. Yeah. No omens.

And yeah, I remember just going to bed and the next thing I remember was waking up to a man standing above me, knife at my neck, telling me to get up and get out of bed. Don't make a sound. Go with him. Oh my god.

How detailed is your memory of all that? Is it pretty? Yeah, it's pretty detailed. Yeah. I mean you try I guess for all of us it's this hasn't happened to you try to imagine yourself in that situation which I guarantee your imagination is not going to do it justice but

first thoughts like yeah you're like this is a prank or horror or no just like this can't actually be real and I mean like I remember I remember as a kid like I chose to sleep closest to the door because I was like oh if anything ever happened like it's my responsibility is to watch over my little sister. Like, I'm older than her, so I'm going to sleep next to the door.

Yeah. Never actually thinking anything could happen. I felt like my nightmares would like like

the movie that scared me most as a kid was The Never- Ending Story. Oh, yeah. Sure.

What scared you? Oh, I hated it. You hated a train with a huge dog or this? I mean, honestly, I haven't watched it since then, so I couldn't even tell. Oh wow. It's a beautiful story about a little boy on an adventure.

I just remember being terrified when I watched it as a kid. Yeah. And I remember thinking that was more likely to pop out of my nightmares than to have someone break in. That was never even a thought that someone could break into my home.

Yeah. And so I'd imagine there's like enormous confusion about what's happening. And then you're very quickly on the move out of the house obviously.

Yeah. Out the front door, out the window. So I was on the top floor of my house. I was probably in like the highest point of my house.

Okay. And so we had to I mean obviously come out of my room, come down through like the big flight of stairs in the middle of my house and then we went out through the back kitchen door.

Wow. And do you remember on that walk hoping someone would hear you guys or Oh, absolutely.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then because they didn't, I remember then thinking, well, because nobody woke up. Is it because he killed them already?

Sure. Yeah. How could you know? Is that why? Cuz I mean, like felt like whenever my older brother and I tried to sneak down to like see what presents were for Christmas, my parents always caught us.

So, how did they catch us then and then not wake up now? And of course he explicitly said like if you scream I'm going to kill you. If you don't I'm not going to hurt you.

Yeah. Yeah. So I love how the doc is um structured. It's it's a very very compelling story because we really are going to talk with your sister for the most part of the beginning of this story which is apppropo cuz she's the only person who has any idea what has happened. So, she heard this go on or was she sleeping through it? Also, did he have a mask on? Sorry, I have so many detailed questions about this.

No. So, um she woke up, she heard it, but she didn't open her eyes like wide because she didn't want him to know she was awake.

Pretend you're invisible at that moment. Yeah. But she said she was like kind of looking through her eyelashes

um to try to see him. So, I mean, she gave the police a description of him. Okay. But um when I later read the description of him and then obviously knowing what he looked like, I was like that's that's not right.

But like if you're a 9year-old girl like and it's dark like looking through your eyelashes like

panicked panicked. Would you No, I don't think you're it's possible to register it

in 9 years old. I mean that is so so tiny to be uh giving a detailed account of what happened.

Yeah. But uh the police obviously questioned her and and the first really compelling thing is that she recognized the voice.

Yeah. Yeah. She said she like she knew the voice. She didn't know she couldn't place it immediately,

but she knew the voice. Like she recognized the voice. Oh my god. So did she like once you were out of the house, I guess she like ran into your parents' room, I guess. So, we have an alarm system or we had none of us live in that house anymore.

Yeah. But we had an alarm system in the house and so she was waiting to hear the alarm system go off

to know whether or not it was safe for her to get up and go wake my parents. But like, as luck would have it, for whatever reason, I think I feel like someone explained to me once, and I could be totally wrong, but like when an alarm system goes off, it's because like there's a magnet set in the frame and a magnet set in the door, and when they disconnect, that alerts the system.

Yeah. Breaks a circuit. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Sounds like you know what you're talking about.

I don't. Yeah. But um I think the magnets had fallen out of the door frame. What? Oh my god. So, and none of us knew about it.

Yeah. And so, when the back door opened, it never went off. So, my sister was lying in bed and she never heard it go off. And so, she waited and waited and waited. I think she probably waited about 45 minutes before she went and like told my parents. But like that would have been terrifying for her and would have taken like a lot of courage for her because for all she knew,

she was still in the house. Exactly. And if she gets up now, she's next. Yeah. Or or he could kill you. I mean, there's just a million bad options.

Yeah. It's unimaginable. What is painful to watch, but of course, absolutely required. And you again, you would know you work in this space. Sadly, most of these cases are family related.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like a pretty high percentage. Yeah. Really high percentage. Obviously, the police have to begin trying to clear your family and there's a lot of you.

Yeah, there is. Oh, yeah. Also, there's press. So, from your point of view now, what is it like for you? Because of course, you were not present for any of this, but when you have since seen everything they kind of went through for the next few days after your disappearance, what are your thoughts? I mean, it depends when you ask me. Like, when I first was rescued and I saw glimpses of it, like initially I was just like, you guys didn't have it that bad. Like, you're all there together. Like, you're not alone with like these monsters.

Like, the bad things aren't happening to you. Like, you're on the good end. But then like now as a parent myself, like I'd gladly go through it again, right?

To make sure it didn't happen to my kids. Yes. And so now as a parent, I'm like

I don't know whose was worse, but I know I would do whatever it took to protect my children.

Yeah. Well, as a fellow dad watching your father Ed speak about your primary job is to protect your kids and your little girls

in the amount of shame and guilt uh and self flagagillation I'm sure about failing at that job uh is probably was real rough. But additionally um is it Uncle Tom?

Yeah, Uncle Tom's a character. She has an uncle. Is he the oldest? He is. He feels like the oldest.

He got wy in these interviews, Monica. Yes. Even I because again I I felt blessed by the fact that I hadn't followed all the twists and turns. So really when I'm if I wasn't interviewing you and my children kept asking, is she alive? And I'm like, she has to be. I'm interviewing her. But beyond that, I don't know. So stop asking me questions like I don't know. Entering the dock.

I forget a lot, too. I think a lot of people forget. I entered the dock not knowing if it was your a family member, right? So, I I'm along for the ride ride the way America was. And I got to be honest, I'm watching these interviews and I'm watching Uncle Tom and Uncle Tom goes on this kind of weird path about how everyone is flawed and everyone has secrets and I'm like, what the [ __ ] is this guy talking about? Sounds like you. It's some highway secret. I take this moment to be honest about the reality, the complexity of life.

Like, what? And so we're watching that and my kids are like, "OH MY GOD, HE DID."

I know it seems crazy. And then of course now America, it takes America by storm. And so you have all these different pundits now evaluating every sentence that's said.

Oh, first of all, like my uncle is just one of the best people you could actually meet.

That comes out in the wash. By the end of the day, you're like, I [ __ ] love Uncle Tom.

I mean, like, he's he's all my uncles are the best people. Um, and I believe it was after that interview because sleep deprivation was at an all-time high that family members had to like enact certain rules before family members went before the media so they didn't

come off sounding that way. Yeah. You mean like media training, but you're going through this crazy fear and loss like

I mean it was like you know the most intense worst thing my family had ever experienced.

Yeah. So yeah, everyone was just like Yeah. He he says later uh in this doc you know he had been awake for about 5 and a half days at the point because he also took a polygraph that was inconclusive whatever that means. This is kind also like we we had Amanda Knox on and kind of similar like you end up doing things and saying things because you you're just being put through the ringer.

Yeah. You've been interrogated for 36 hours and then you're expected to give a cohesive

be normal. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Again, so we're watching that and then my kids are like, "Yeah, he he did it right." And I'm like, "Well, he's in the dock, so no, I would have presumed he'd be in like the weird detective work we were trying to do." Hey,

but then you're also seeing all of these things that really end up frustrating me when I see investigations. And look, these are people are not sent down from heaven. They're human beings doing the best they can. They're scared. Everyone's scared. They're being relied on to have the answers and they don't have the answers. But some of these immediate things that are coming out are very frustrating, which is the man looks at there's a, you know, um the attacker uh put a chair against the wall and then cut a screen and then climb through a window.

That's how he got in. Mhm. Okay. And the detectives look at this and say there'd be a scuff on the wall.

Yeah. This is these kind of like I know it would this would happen. Those things are very frustrating.

Yes. Um and I suppose that is how they work, right? You're just trying to knock down things that don't make sense, but at the same time, it's like, what are we talking about? And then people saying your father, Ed, in the on TV in the interviews didn't have real tears when he was crying. Like this micro examination of what someone's supposed to be doing.

I I can guarantee like I don't have to be there to know like he he would have been crying.

Yeah. Like he cries every time he gets emotional. Yeah. you daughters do that to us.

I didn't cry before I had them and now I can't stop. But also, even if he didn't, the fact that like that then means is a problem. It's like we Yeah. We all have these ideas based on like movies

movies. Yeah. How you're supposed to react in trauma. And it's like everyone acts differently in trauma and you can't just like make an assumption.

Yeah. It's really bad. Yeah. Here's my great curiosity now that I know the end. So now they bring in the the whole town activates, right? It it gets an enormous amount of coverage and really everyone shows up to try to find you. Um there is a point where the they bring out the the basset hound dog and it gets the scent of you and it and it leads them for a very long time in your neighborhood, but then it stops. Do you have an explanation for that?

I always wondered that, too. Yeah. I always thought, "Oh, they'll bring dogs because I never got into a car like and I mean, right, they said the scent stopped at the street, but right across the street it's like a pretty popular trail head and so like

you go up it." Yeah. Yeah. And and they just said it just stopped, which I I don't understand.

Yeah. And so they conclude, oh, they went to here, got in a car, and now the car drove away, and that's why the scent's gone.

Well, and then I remember, I mean, it rained, not like a huge downpour, but it rained like the second or third day that I was kidnapped, and I remember thinking, "Oh, maybe that washed the scent away." But then,

and I assume this is correct, but I'm not an expert. But I asked a dog handler like years later, while it rained, did it wash the scent away? And they're like, no, that actually enhances the scent. like reactivates it. That kind of makes sense.

Weird. And I was just like, "Okay, well, I I never got in a car." Like, well, once we find out in this dock where you were, it's absolutely maddening. Like, that that's a that's a heartbreaking bit of information. You were not that far.

I wasn't, but I like I hiked back up there just this past October. Uhhuh. And like it is not easy to get to. It is hard. It is very very difficult to get to

like like I've run marathons and it that's like harder. Wow. Really? And um when you were on that walk, were you even aware of how hard it was or you probably just such in a state of shock?

I had like so much adrenaline just pumping through me. I had no idea just how like far back we were. Like I thought I was a lot closer to the city than I actually was. Which I mean again when you think oh 3 and 1/2 miles 3 and 3/4s of a mile like that's not that far but like straight back into the mountains that's that's a decent distance.

Yeah it's like 20 miles on flat ground maybe feels about like it. So you walked the whole time like in silence

pretty much. I mean I remember asking him a few times like why are you doing this?

Yeah. Like where are you taking me? Why are you taking I remember asking him questions, but he'd always kind of shut me down. He'd say something like, "Oh, I'm taking you hostage." Or, "Oh, will be revealed in due course."

Oh. Was he already cryptic in biblical speech or was that I'd say he was in and out?

In and out. In and out. Yeah. Will you tell Monica this horrendous thing you had to ask him and why?

Well, I asked him if he was going to rape and kill me. Yeah. And uh because I mean What? Like

you're like what is this about? Yeah. Like we didn't have enemies. Right. Right.

Right. We never started a feud or hurt anyone. But you didn't recognize him. Not immediately. But I did recognize him like once we started getting up further into the mountains. Yeah, I did.

And I was like, why are you doing this? My parents tried to help you. Like, oh my god. But you had asked if he was going to rape and kill you because this is so heartbreaking, but also so pragmatic of you even at 14. You wanted it to happen close to the house if he was going to do it so your parents could find you.

Yeah. I mean, there were like it's not that different from here. like there are mountain lions, there are coyotes, and like as a 14-year-old had a pretty active imagination, and I was like, "Oh my gosh, if we get far up here, like

these coyotes are mountain lines are going to tear apart my body and then I'll just vanish and no one will ever find me." Which

which again, like as active as imagination is, like it could have happened. Like just this last time I hiked up there, like I saw some endrails on the way up and that was it. animal.

Yeah, I know. I know. I know. But still. Yeah. Yeah. You never know. Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare. We are supported by All State. Checking All State first could save you hundreds on car insurance. That's smart. Not checking your phone's battery before heading out. That'll get you every time. Of course, your phone dies on the way to meet someone, leaving you wandering around quietly panicking about being in the wrong spot. Yeah, checking first is smart. So, check All State first for a quote that could save you hundreds.

You're in good hands with All State. Potential savings vary subject to terms, conditions, and availability. All State North American Insurance Co. and affiliates, North Brook, Illinois. We are supported by Into It Turbo Tax. You know that feeling when you drop your taxes off with someone and then nothing? You're just sitting there wondering if they've even started, if there's a problem, if you're getting everything you're owed. It's like sending your car to the shop and never getting an update. That's what I appreciate about Turboax.

With Turboax Expert Full Service, they've completely transformed that experience. You get matched with a dedicated tax expert who actually does your taxes for you. And here's the part that changes everything. You can get realtime updates on your experts progress from start to finish. You can literally see when they're working on your return. No more guessing, no more waiting by the phone. And if you have questions, you get unlimited help from your expert at no extra cost, even nights and weekends during tax season.

They're focused on getting you the best possible outcome in every dollar you deserve.

My dad loves Turboax and he's a meticulous man. He doesn't cut corners. If you're not going to trust me, trust a shook.

That's right. Visit turboax.com to get matched with a Turboax full service expert today. That's turboax.com. Only available with Turboax full service experts. Real-time updates only on iOS mobile app.

Yeah, the fact that you have to think like that is terribly adult kind of a thought to have. I think and the first few days of this there's 40,000 leads are phoned in. So what they're trying to you know sift through. Um, and ultimately the family is cleared.

And how do we get to Reissi? H how did how did he come to be a suspect? My parents had built the house that we were living in and they really project managed the whole thing and like my dad was in there like laying tile with everyone else and painting walls and doing all the things. What line of work was your dad in?

He was a mortgage broker. Oh, okay. Yeah. So, he, you know, he would contract out with people or um like he went to um like I can't even remember exactly what it's called, but basically like the Mormon church services where they try to connect people in need with work. And they had recommended this Richard Reesei to my dad. And because it came from the church, my dad was like, "Oh, he's good. he must be fine.

Yeah. Fed somehow. Yeah. So he um brought him to our house, had him like working on and around the house. Um and like neither my parents knew that actually he was like a convicted felon and he had like a whole history. So when the police were asking for a list of everyone who had been to our house before, you know, his name was on the list, and then of course they're like, "Oh, well, he's a felon.

He had killed a a cop in a uh an armed robbery gone wrong." Oh, yeah. So obviously for them, they're pretty excited at that revelation. How could they not be?

Yeah. They're like, "It's him." Yeah. It's got to be this guy. and they bring him in and he's, you know, he's a wild dude. There there's a lot of footage in the dock of them uh interviewing him and he again he's also presenting as someone guilty. He's very combative. He will not explain your father gave him a a car, right? A Cherokee.

Yeah. So it was in exchange for like some work instead of money. He would rather have the car and so that's was the deal. But then there was like I'm not exactly sure on the details but like I don't know if he had completed all the work or there was some something that like

it didn't end well. Yeah. That they were like he was supposed to follow through and

it was like a weirdness. I mean he ended up stealing some of my mom's jewelry as well.

That's another thing. They go to his house to arrest him and when they have a warrant to go through everything they find stuff he's stolen from their house. So God Yeah. If you're them this is looking more and more promising.

Yeah. It's a bull. This feels like a bullseye. And then even crazier, somehow they deduce this, and I don't know how, but but he had put a few hundred miles on that car that was given to him

the night of this abduction. Yeah. And we never found out what it was for. He refused to tell,

but everyone thought it was like he drove out to the West Desert and buried me out there.

Right. I mean, yeah, that's kind of a natural conclusion. And if you're the police, you're like, "Oh my god, now we have a radius of 150 miles. Like this is now good luck."

Yeah. Oh. And he won't tell them anything. And he's really really combative. And uh they decide let's offer him a deal, an immunity deal, which is as so long as it has nothing to do with a murder or some other very serious thing, you can tell us where you drove and we won't care about the crime.

Right. And so as that's being pitched and they're evaluating whether or not to take that opportunity, he dies in his jail cell,

which my grandpa, who my other grandpa, my dad's dad, um he was a doctor and at the time he said, "Oh, Elizabeth hit him over the head and he had a brain aneurysm and that's why he died."

I'm glad he I'm glad he thought that, but that's not what happened. Yeah. Oh my god. He So he did he had an aneurysm. He just like healed. What?

Yeah. And the doctor like stroke or aneurism? I don't know if it was ever decided, but but now we're in a very And you're still missing.

Yeah. This is like a string of impossibly bad luck things to happen. Like that nobody woke up, that the magnets on the door fell off, that this guy just dies out of nowhere. Like what? That's so crazy.

No, right. It shouldn't be. Yeah. How is this even my life? Right. Right. And now, how long had you been gone when Reissi died?

I think it was probably like at the four or five month mark. Oh, that long been gone.

Yeah. For four or five months. And so obviously national intentions dying down.

The police department's running out of people to talk to. They have this guy. They thought it was it. He's dead.

I don't want to say they they said it was over, but kind of it was over for them.

But that leaves your parents with, "Oh my god, what where is she if that's what happened?" I mean, just the agony of that being the conclusion must have been

Yeah. I mean, everyone was like, "The secret of what happened to Elizabeth has gone with Richard Reesei to his grave."

Like, we will never find her. We will never know what happened. We can only assume she's dead.

Okay. Now, tell Monica this crazy thing that happens to Mary Catherine waiting for dad to come tuck tuck her into bed. So my sister,

she's just like randomly looking at the Guinness Book of World Records and she said she turned to this page of this extremely muscular woman. I know she's like I she like to this day she's like I have no idea.

The mind's weird, isn't it? That's what joged. No idea. But as she's looking at this page,

most muscular woman in the world, muscular woman, like the name comes to her. No.

And my dad comes in to tuck her in and she's like, "Dad, I think I know who kidnapped Elizabeth. I think it was that guy, Emanuel, who came to our house and did some work for you that one time." Oh,

and yeah, who you guys had originally seen downtown right? Yeah. I I'd only seen him once. It's like I was out school clothes shopping with my mom at the beginning of the year and I mean he only saw me like one time and just that one time he's like yep she's the one I'm going to kidnap her

and he was a homeless guy who was preaching some his own version of the scripture

at that point in time like he wasn't he didn't preach to my mom or anything his spent a lot of time talking about his twisted past but

he I think he basically found that the best way to manipulate people and get what he wanted was through religion

or if he needed to justify something, just blame it on religion. And so he had done that for years.

Um like he'd done it to his family. He like when he married my other captor, that was I think his third wife. And like then he and his third wife, they just like fed off of each other. But um like they had both used that tactic for years and years. However, I think if you like look at that time period, you know, he saw me in like September, October maybe of 2001, right around 911. Like I think any form of extremism was kind of

uh people just pulled away from him, frowned upon. Yeah. Yeah. It was just made people very cautious. So he had

stopped wearing like the robes he usually wore and he had like stopped kind of pushing that facade as much. So when my mom saw him, I mean he was clean shaven, he had like clean clothes on. He just kind of looked like a guy who had hit hard times. Not necessarily like your average homeless person.

Yeah. Yeah. So, and he didn't even ask my mom for money straight out of the gate. Like, he asked her for work.

When you were out clothes shopping, he just like random. Okay. And so, my mom was like, "Well, I don't have any work, but you can call my husband. You can talk to my husband."

And he only asked for work because he saw me and wanted to find out where we lived. And so from the time he saw me,

God, back in like September, October, um, all the way up until June was when he kidnapped me. He he planned it.

What the [ __ ] Okay. So, Mary Katherine uh, knows it's a manual. And then and then we bring in a sketch artist.

Yeah. And they do a sketch. Mhm. Uh, and they would they want the police to release this sketch and they do not want to release it. I can't remember the reason they were

I mean they just thought it was Richard Reesi. Like they just they just didn't think that it was this this other guy who came to our house one time

and they said if you put this out in public then the if that person is does have Elizabeth now you're in danger.

Right. right? This is the rational. It's not insane, but but whatever. Um, but thank God your family grew so frustrated

uh and hopeless, I imagine. I mean, John Walsh um from like America's Most Wanted had become like a huge support to my parents. So, my dad had gotten pretty close with him. And my dad had told John, "Mary Katherine thinks she knows who took Elizabeth." and we've gone down to the police station and we've had like a sketch artist come in and sketch this guy and like she thinks that's who it is and and John was like, "Well, you got to release it." And they're like, "But the police don't want us to." And so, actually,

John went on Larry King Live back in the day and he actually released the sketch on Larry King Live.

Wow. Good for him. Yeah. As it turns out, great for him because pretty quickly,

the brother-in-law of Emanuel, in quotes, Dax just did quotes. I did quotes if you're listening, not watching. Um, Emanuel in quotes, um, brother-in-law calls and says, "I think I know who Emanuel is."

He knew that was the name that Brian Mitchell was going by. So, now we know who it is.

Yeah. And but now, where are they? Okay. So now let's go back to walking you. Yeah.

So as you just said, there's a second person involved. Mhm. Who goes by the name of

Heb. What happens when you get to the end of this 3 and 1/2 mile hiking trail? Well, I mean, he had said while he was taking me up into the mountains that we were going to his wife. And initially when I heard that there was going to be a woman there, I was like, "It's going to be fine." You know what? It's going to be fine. Like

I tell my kids, "Find a woman if you're lost." I know. That's right. Yeah. Women can be crazy, too.

Now you should tell them, "Find a woman with kids." Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We Well, that is we go step one, find a police officer or a woman with kids, and then next. Yeah.

Yeah. It's a list. Yeah. It's terrible with what it is. Yeah. Um, and so like initially I was like relieved cuz I was like, "Oh, you know, like nothing that bad can happen." Plus like I mean I could tell that he was older and I was like I feel like your brain goes in so many different ways to try to protect you.

Like try to make you think, okay, or at least mine does. The situation is not as dire as it seems. Like it's going to be okay. It's going to be okay.

You're okay. There's a woman there. Like maybe they're just kidnapping you because they want a daughter. really. That's what I was honestly just thinking. I was like, "Is that why?"

Or maybe their daughter died or something and like they're just heartbroken. Well, you're grasping for any ray of hope.

Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And so we get back up into the mountains to like this hidden mountain camp and sure enough there's this woman and um I feel like relief at seeing her. She comes up to me, she hugs me, but at the same time like there's like the hug was I don't know. Is there such thing as an Yes, there is such thing as an aggressive hug.

Sure. Or a possessive hug. Yeah. A hug of like domination kind of thing. Yeah. I'm claiming you.

Yeah. And she's also dressed in by my sorry. Yeah. No, you're right. A crazy outfit. She's in She looks like she is in these long sort of like tunic like robes on.

All white. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Just different. Yep. Very different. So, she hugs you. She hugs me. She leads me inside of the tent. She sits me down on an upturned bucket.

And I need to add, it is a camping tent. Get no illusions of grandeur. This is a threeperson tent.

It's probably like a sixperson tent. You're right. This is, let's be fair, it's a sixperson tent.

Okay. But that's where they're living. That's the Yeah. Like there's like inside the tent there's just like bedding on the ground. And there's this one upturned bucket. That's what she has me sit on. She brings in like this little small blue basin, has water in it. She like takes off my shoes, starts like washing my feet, like goes to reach to unbutton my pajamas. And I was like, what? Yeah. And I mean, I was shy kid. Yeah. And like

I'm a late bloomer in lots of things. So, like I hadn't really hit puberty yet.

And I don't know anyone who goes through puberty gracefully anyway. No, not me.

No, it's not easy. I was I could not of course help but imagine my own 12year-old situation. And it's just devastating. It's [ __ ] devastating.

Yeah. So, you know, as she's like trying to undress me, I just remember like grabbing hold of my pajamas. The last thing you want to be is naked in front of anybody, much less strangers. No.

Yeah. Who knows what's going to happen when these clothes come off, too. Exactly.

It's very scary. Yeah. So, did she let you keep them on? No. No. She's like, "If you like, if you don't let me take them off you, I will have Emanuel come in here and he will rip them off of you."

And I remember just being like, "I showered last night before I went to bed. Like, I'm not dirty. Like, if you want me to change, I will change myself. You don't need to touch me."

Yeah. And so she finally hands me a robe like the one she has on. I remember pulling it on and then taking my clothes off underneath the robe.

Oh my gosh. And she scoops them up and she walks out of the tent. And you're just sitting there.

I'm just sitting there. Yep. I could hear them right outside the door. God. So the woman walks out. I honestly don't know how much time passed. Could have been 30 seconds. Could have been 10 minutes. I don't know. But not too much time passes and the man comes in the tent and he's changed out of like the dark sweatpants and sweatshirt and like stalking hat that he wore to kidnap me in and he has on these long robes like the woman

and he comes in and he kneels down next to me and he starts speaking to me and at first I'm really not paying attention to what he has to say

and then I have the thought that maybe I should because maybe there'd be like some reason why he was kidnapping me or what was going to happen next.

Did you think as a religious person, did you think at any point, oh, these are satanic, like they're some kind of devil worshipy people?

Like at that point, I did not realize like he had already mentioned God, but because I grew up in such a religious like environment,

Yeah. That didn't just automaticly make me think, "Oh, crazy person." Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right.

But then as I listen to what he says and he's like, "I seal you to me as my wife before God and his angels as my witnesses."

They're getting married. My God. Yeah. And is it at that moment he tells you you are one of seven I will be. He doesn't tell me right at that moment, but I mean he does tell me later how I'm the first of seven wives. And he had this whole thing like so he had this whole set of books that he viewed as scripture and he called them um the seven diamonds plus one because like the seven books it was like the Old Testament, the New Testament like

they were standard stuff. Yeah. I don't know how standard all of them were but they were books like published books and then his plus one was like

the book he wrote of like revelations his book his book cuz he's a prophet exact he's not just a prophet he's the Davidic king

I know like half of these things I'd never even heard of before. Yeah. And um that was like the same thing how he viewed me and the future six other girls he was going to kidnap. So we were going to be the seven wives plus the one. And the one was Wanda Barzy Hepsaw.

Oh yeah. And she was like the queen that would reign over us all. She was the mother of Zion. That's what she claimed. Boy, you think about all the psychology that goes behind a master manipulator like that and how offering her that high status role somehow made all you know all the other obvious this dude's obviously wants to have be with a ton of women but I've anointed you as the you know this is the sav I'm going to put on that is give you super high status and hope you're good with that.

You know she had a prior marriage as well. She had six kids from her prior marriage. But that makes it even darker to think of someone who's has had children.

Yeah. But it's unimaginable. I feel a little bit torn because on one hand I don't want to like be like you're not totally at fault because you are,

right? But at the same time like I don't think she had like a healthy I don't think she knew what a healthy relationship was. And um I think she probably had quite a few struggles herself in life.

You must be in a very complicated situation when it comes to her in particular,

right? Cuz she is your predator, your oppressor. Uhhuh. And you're smart enough to know she too is caught in some web of oppression herself probably. Yeah. Or no?

No. I mean there is definitely a cycle. Uhhuh. And I think she probably was so desperate for love. She wanted to feel special. She wanted to feel like she was important because I think she probably had never felt that in her life. Yeah.

And so he's there telling her, you know, you are like my queen and you've experienced all of these hardships because God was testing you and he has found you worthy and you know you are going to be the mother of Zion and even though you've had a hyerectomy and you're 58, one day you will bear me a son who will be the future Davidic king. I mean, wow. Yeah.

You know, I mean, part of me is like you were a mother or maybe you just gave birth six times. Maybe you don't understand what it is to be a mother because a mother would never harm a child.

Yeah. How? And it's like mindblowing to me that like even another woman because we've all we've all been through puberty, you know? We've all been through that

awkward kind of miserable time in life, you know, self-conscious. Like, why would you exploit a young girl probably at her most vulnerable? Why would you sit aside and encourage her to be raped?

Yeah. And watch it. Yes. And what kind of bizarre psychology to watch someone you're married to rape someone? It's It's Yeah, it's quite

She must have really been so sick and manipulated that she had to probably believe that

because she didn't. Yeah, exactly. You can't live. Then she's triple monster. Yeah,

exactly. Or conversely, maybe she's an equal monster. I don't know. That's what I'm kind of asking. Like, are you even able to evaluate that? That's

that's why I go like back and forth is because sometimes I'm like was she in such a bad place herself from her whole life's past experience that like she just was so desperate for love for the feelings of wanting to be special that she allowed this to happen. It was just easier to believe and go along with

than to stand up and be like, "No." Yeah, you're sick. That's is wrong. And did she ever crack and show signs of jealousy? There must have. Yes. So, was she she was probably cruel to you at times.

Like, she never stood up for me and protected me, right? But I mean, I not only was supposed to be his wife, but I was supposed to be her handmaidaden.

Mhm. So, I was supposed to like wait on her. And so I felt that it was better for me to support her claims um because then sometimes her jealousy would be so much that um like it would be so much that like he would come out with a new revelation to try to plater. So like it would be things like um he'd come out and he'd say, "Oh, you know, God has said that your glory is like that of the sun and so I can only be with you when the sun is out." And

and me that I was just more like the moon and so he could only have me at night.

He'd have like some kind of revelation to plate her that way. And like I never wanted to be raped. But then if I supported her in that, then at least I'd know I'd have a reprieve for 12 hours, 8 hours, however long the sun was out.

I would imagine if I were you, and I could be wrong, that I'm in survival mode. And I would recognize that if I could convince her I'm loyal to you,

that that would help me. Yes. Later. Yes. and probably playing this bizarre game where you're trying to make both people feel like you're loyal to them.

And so, I mean, they would have like massive fights like screaming at each other, which like my parents disagreed, but I never saw them scream at each other. Yeah.

And so, like watching them just like be like straight up nasty to each other and scream at each other, I was like, "Oh my goodness."

Yeah. And would you be ever hoping like, "Oh, good. I hope they're they break apart. That that'll help dissolve all this if she goes somewhere.

She maybe will tell someone." That thought crossed my mind, but it became pretty quickly apparent that like she wasn't going to betray him.

Yeah. And I mean, one time she did actually leave the like the hidden campsite and I was just left alone with with Emanuel, Brian Mitchell, all day. Um, and she went down into Salt Lake cuz she was she was really mad at him because I mean food was always scarce, water was scarce. And so she and I would be up in the mountains starving and he'd go down to Salt Lake and like he would just like steal food,

steal beer. He got arrested while Elizabeth was in the camp. He got arrested in Salt Lake for stealing beer.

Yeah, he actually got arrested a couple times. Oh, he did a couple times. Yeah. He got arrested in Salt Lake. He got arrested in uh

Lakeside. Lakeside. Yeah. Where he was like held in jail for almost a week. Oh my god.

Like I thought I was going to die of starvation. Okay. Now, this wasn't in the dock, but I It just occurred to me there's also you This is insanely boring, too. No. I mean, you guys are sitting in a [ __ ] during months. Like, well, yeah. What? Do you remember the tedium of that?

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It's It's Was there a TV in there? Not for I just mean more just to see the news. Like were you seeing yourself?

There's no electricity. There's no water. There's nothing. I mean they had like their scriptures

and like they would pray and like when they'd pray it would be like 45 minutes like an hour.

Yeah. So long. Yeah. like you know like my family prayed growing up but it was like 90 seconds 2 minutes at a stretch

reasonable. Yeah. Whoa. And I mean they just like kept on going and then like my average day would be like wake up and they like actually he'd probably rape me and then he'd pray for like 45 minutes an hour and then he'd want to read sometimes whatever scripture he chose. But most time it'd be like what he wrote, which that would take like I don't know, an hour and a half, two hours, I don't know. And then if there was food, then I'd be allowed to eat something. I mean, I'd be given what I could eat. I just couldn't take whatever.

And then they'd mostly just talk all day. They're both crazy. I mean, there's two crazy individuals.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean like I don't know what was worse sometimes like just listening to them talk or actually being raped.

Yeah, you said that like what was Yeah, I stand by that. But again, just not to not to be uh salacious, but I think it's relevant. It's that first night he rapes you. It's unimaginable. Obviously, you're in so much pain, you're bleeding, and then the next day multiple times.

Yeah. And then that just continues for months. Yeah. I mean, forced me to go naked. He was like, "Oh, we need to be like Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden."

I must have just been so And so, we're going to go naked all day. And then like, "Oh, you know what? A wife needs to know how to make love to her husband. So, we're going to demonstrate. You need to watch."

Oh my god. And we're going to demonstrate. And then it'll be your turn. And if you don't watch, like, you won't get any food. You won't get any water. get your clothes back.

Like, you won't get your clothes back. Won't be able to go to sleep tonight. Like, nothing is going to happen until until you do this.

Oh my god. Now, the other mind-blowing part of this is you were also going into town.

I mean, not right away, but yeah. How far into captivity before you guys all go into town?

Was probably probably about 3 months in. 3 months. Mhm. So he takes them to town in their in the white outfits and both of them have their faces completely covered other than the eyes.

I mean even they added like a sheerville for the eyes. For the eyes as well. Yeah.

And he took you guys to a kind of illegal nightclub. I mean it was just a house party. House party. Yeah.

Yeah. I guess the way that the guy who hosted the thing described it was in 2002 in Salt Lake, you have a very obvious Mormon culture and then you have a pretty thriving counterculture and there would be these kind of off-grid after hours parties where people did drugs and did whatever. So he comes to a place like this.

Yeah. And the man offered you a beer or all three of you a drink. Yeah. And Emanuel said, "Uh, the ladies are not allowed to drink, but I can drink." And then the man said to Elizabeth, he's this guy seems kind of controlling.

And then Hezbollah or Hezbah Heepsah uh says you you can't talk to her, right? Or

Mhm. So, I mean there's like think how close this is to being Oh, that's so I bet that guy when everything, you know, came out like he probably I'm sure was like, "Oh my god,

he's in the dock saying he feels terrible that he didn't like push harder." But the one that is absolutely You hear these stories about I don't know if it was Dolmer or one of these serial killers where like

one of his victims got away and a cop brought him back to the house. This is a very famous story. this guy getting away and

what? Yeah. Um, so tell us about going to the Salt Lake the the the library. I mean, winter's coming on and there's just no way we could have survived like a northern Utah winter.

Yeah. There's no way we could have gotten enough food or like a tent. Yeah. We would not have survived.

Yeah. And so, uh, they're like, "We need to find somewhere to go. we need to find somewhere, you know, for this winter. So, it was decided we'd go to Southern California. And they're like, "Okay, we need to find maps of the area. We need to figure where to go in Southern California." So, we went to the public library and um they like had maps spread out on the table. They decided we'd head to San Diego. They were like looking at the maps of San Diego. There was a place called Lakeside, which he's like, "Oh, Lakeside, that sounds like kind of remoteish. Like there must be a big lake. So there's probably a place to hide somewhere around there,

which is actually kind of funny because it's a man-made lake. Oh. Surrounded not by rural areas.

Yeah. It was decided that's where we go. So, they're looking at the map and all of a sudden like this guy starts walking towards us and he gets closer and all of a sudden he flashes his badge and he says, "I'm a homicide detective and I um you know, we've gotten a call and I just need to talk to you cuz there's a girl who you know, we're trying to find and you know, we just need to verify that she is not that girl."

Oh, wow. Yeah. Really quick before you tell the outcome, can do you remember what was happening in your body as that was happening?

Shock, adrenaline, fear, like fear. Like I was just like I mean Wanda Barzi, her hand just like like clamped down on my thigh

and I was just paralyzed. Yeah. It was like being kidnapped all over again. It was like reliving every bad thing that had happened to me. And it just made me feel like it reminded me of how invincible my captors felt to me,

right? And that they had the control and not me. And they had gotten away with so much already.

Yeah. Um, and who was this police officer that he thought he could protect me when no one had found me?

Yeah. Oh, wow. So, I mean, I just like I was frozen. Yeah. Which I mean, you know, everyone has kind of heard of fight or flight.

Yeah. Or freeze. And then freeze. And And I froze. Yeah. Yeah. Of course. I mean, it wasn't even like a consciousness.

All of us would freeze. Yeah. Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare. But wait, what did they say?

The the Emanuel, he explains to the cop that their religion forbids her to show her face. That the only people that are ever allowed to see her face are her father and her future husband.

Okay. And the police officer said fine. Yeah. And I just I mean he pushed he was like well can I just convert to your religion for a day? Oh

like if you just let me see her face you know anyone else who calls I can you know I can assure them that

you know she is who you say she is. Like just let me see. I mean he did push like he did try.

Wow. Oh, but now that's the guy who I imagine has the most amount of guilt. Way beyond

I actually think he's passed away since then. Yeah. Okay. But I mean I saw him during the trial and like he

devastated. Yeah. He just apologized so much. Yeah. But I think that also just goes to show like what a master manipulator were. There's like there is some spengali quality he clearly had that he could not panic in the face of this situation he was in you know and then stick to it and convince the and get out of it. I mean, it was also really interesting during the trial like the prosecuting team like found so much stuff about him and and it was interesting because the defense team even brought up a lot of stuff that the prosecution was like we were thinking about bringing that up and then we're like we don't need to but this is just like another nail in the coffin so why not? And one of the things they brought up was a letter that um Brian Mitchell had written, I think it was like to his mom or someone, but talking about what a good actor he was and how much he enjoyed acting and tricking people and

convincing others of whatever he felt like, right? Oh my god. Oh my god. Can you believe that? So they take a Greyhound or you take a bus out of Lakeside. Mhm.

You're there and now I think this is a very savvy moment for you. What it tells me is like as frozen as you were at many times that were terrifying, you also hadn't surrendered. There was still you were still

you had hope because I got to say there's there's moments in the doc where I wonder like do we ever get Stockholm syndromey? Is there anything happening? I mean it's just I I I really can't um fathom what happens mentally. But do you think there

do you know that Stockholm syndrome? I am well aware of it but no but I act I mean

I'm not sure that I even really believe in Stockholm syndrome. Yeah. I feel like it's actually as we just mentioned fight, flight, freeze. But I think there's another response which is appease which is basically

which I don't even like the word fawn because that makes it sound like that you're flirty.

Oh, it makes it sound like you're fawning over someone like you're flirting like you're looking for attention.

Yeah, that's true. It does kind of sound but you're just satiating someone's ego is what's happening.

But basically, it's just doing whatever you have to do to survive. So if that means going along with them, then that's what you do.

Yes. But you do get this pretty clever idea because you know you're not the further away from Salt Lake City you are, the less your chances of getting found are.

So what how do you plant this seed? I'd watch them do it for 9 months. um like how they'd get away with whatever they wanted um by claiming God commanded them or um saying it was part of their religion. And I think you'd find with most rapists, it's not so much like the uncontrollable need for sex. It's it's like the power and control over another person that they want more than anything.

Yeah. Right. And that's what they wanted was power and control. And so I remember just thinking, well, if they can do this and get away with it like

why can't I? I like I can only try. Yeah. What's the worst thing that can happen? Like

I guess they could kill me. Yeah. At least I wouldn't be with them, right? And so I thought, I'm just going to give it a try. And so I Yeah. I went to him and I was just like, "Oh, I just have this feeling." I know it sounds so crazy. Like God would never speak to me. Like I am so like sinful. I am just so filthy. Like he had forced me to drink like so many beers one night like not that not that far away from this day that I'm talking to him. um where I'd ended up like throwing up because I was a 15 year old girl at this point

and he just like left me there. And so like I woke up the next morning like my face was all crusted to the ground and throw up and it was like all in my hair

and so I mean I remember being like you know I'm just nothing like you know that showed my true like spiritual state. I'm just faced down in my own vomit but I keep having this feeling like we should go back to Salt Lake. But again, like I know God would never speak to me. So do you think you could ask him? Cuz I know he would tell you.

Wow. Like you are his prophet and I know he would tell you. So could you please ask him?

Yeah. And I think for him in that moment, he was like, not that he didn't already do everything he wanted to to me,

but I think he felt like that was like him at last getting full control. He got

like he got me. Like not only had control of my body, but my mind too in that moment.

You are now a believer. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And so that's when he was like, "Oh, I think you're right. I think we should go back to Salt Lake. Oh my god.

And now America knows the sketch is out. So that's how they they they know who they're looking for, but you know, where are they going to find this guy in country?

He had been following like the case at all. I wouldn't say he was like following it. I guess he couldn't have been following it that

say, but like sometimes when he'd go down into Salt Lake, he'd bring like newspaper articles back about the search.

Okay. Or um he'd talk about how every tree in Salt Lake had like a light blue ribbon tied around it and how every window in Salt Lake had a picture of my face in it. How did that make you feel when you knew everyone was thinking about you?

It's one thing to say that, but to like see it or I guess experience it. I mean, I only experienced after I got home and in like the days and weeks after I got home, like the post office couldn't put mail in our mailbox. They brought it up to the house by the box full. Wow. And I remember at one point there were so many flowers in our house that even the countertops in the bathrooms had vases of flowers on them.

And like I mean I could never imagine like I mean even now it's hard to like we all know like the number oh there's 7 billion people in the world or however many. I mean, it's one thing to say that number, but then to actually even like begin to realize just how many people that actually is like

to put faces, to put bodies to that number, Yeah. is overwhelming. And like I don't have 7 billion people like sending me stuff, but like however many people it was.

The whole country was aware of like overwhelming. Did it buy you a little hope to know that everyone was paying attention?

Yeah. I mean, it was it was comforting to think that there were people looking for me because,

you know, again, like, who was I? Why would people look for me outside of my family,

right? Like, I thought my vision of it would be my parents calling the police, my my family, and the police looking for me.

Like, maybe one news story, right? And and that's it. Yeah. Yeah, like in my mind's eye, it was like my mom driving her car through neighborhoods looking for me.

Now, probably my most hated part of the whole story is is something I've also experienced, which is um after the first rape, um you know, virginity is cherished. What were your thoughts after that?

I thought I was ruined. I 100% thought I was ruined to the point where you didn't even know if your family would want you back.

Yeah. [ __ ] Thought I was going to be like a if if I managed to survive this, if I ever made it back to civilization, would I just become a pariah?

Oh my god. Like, how could anyone have anything to do with me once they knew the truth?

Did you have any fantasies of like, if I'm returned, I'm just going to pretend this part didn't happen? I wanted to, but then also like what would happen if I ever got married and on my wedding night my husband's like,

"Where's your What the hell, Elizabeth?" Like, "You're not a virgin." Oh, so you felt like you there was no escaping this. And I mean now, like now as an adult and someone who's been in this field now for a long time, like unfortunately when you do hear about a kidnapping, you just automatically assume they've been raped.

Yeah. And I mean at the time I was like, "Oh, no one's going to know." Yeah. Of course.

But that was probably naive of me to think that. Yeah. Okay. So, you return to Salt Lake and um pretty quickly upon arriving Yeah.

Mhm. someone spots the three of you in these crazy outfits. Mhm. And calls the police.

I mean, actually, at that point, we weren't even in the robes. Oh, you weren't?

You weren't? No, because we hitchhiked back from um California and my captors were like, "Oh, no one will pick us up like hitchhiking if we're in the road."

[ __ ] no. Looks like children of the corner. So we need to we need to look more normal.

Look a little more normal. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So then you hitchhiked back. So it was right after you guys got there.

Yeah. It was the first day we were back in Utah and you're on foot and a police officer pulled up.

It was multiple. Yeah. Multiple. Yeah. Yeah. Now explain this whole situation once the police offer because this is this is the part I could imagine it just felt like getting suffocated or something like this this moment that I would think in a movie you're going to run towards the cops but there's no way that's what's going to happen.

I mean it was like the library all over again. Yeah. Exactly. You have to assume they're he's going to get out of it. You're going to be with him and if you do something wrong he's going to punish you. That has to be your assumption. Well, he could kill me. Yes.

Or he could go after my family. Um, and I mean, I had a captor on either side of me like physically touching me. It's not like I was just like hanging out by myself on the side.

So, like again, that threat was very much in the forefront of my mind. Yeah. And I absolutely knew what my captors were capable of, but I didn't know what police officers were capable of.

Well, yeah. So far, they haven't been able to do anything. Exactly. Yeah. So, um

in in my mind in that moment, it seemed safest to turn to my normal survival instinct, which was to do what they said.

How did it unfold? Yeah. So, um I mean my chapters had like a whole backstory prepared um that they told me to say if we were ever questioned and um the police officer showed up and I mean it was I don't honestly remember how many there were but it felt like a lot felt like a lot of them

were there like questioning my captors and then they started started to question me. And I mean, they were they were aggressive. They weren't like kind and polite or comforting in any way. Like they were pretty aggressive.

Yeah. So that was that was intimidating. That was scary. Felt like I was receiving scary from both ends.

Yeah. And my captors, I mean, they were adamant about who we were. And police officers tried asking me questions. I gave the answers I'd been told to give. And then finally, one officer, I mean, they were they were much more aggressive this time than any other interaction we'd ever had with police. And finally one of the officers was like, "We need to separate her and talk to her alone."

Yes. This is a good instinct. Yes. Yeah. But they weren't like, "Well, no, it's against our religion for her to be anywhere." I'm sure they tried.

I mean, at that moment in time, like they we weren't in the robes or anything, right?

And so they actually they actually didn't say that. Wow. Maybe they knew at that point like, oh no, like the jig is up.

Yeah. I don't know. So they took you aside. I mean, not not like that far. I mean, I was still in view. It was like just a few yards away from my captors. And again, this officer was like very aggressive towards me like in his questioning. And and I just remember like

just feeling scared. Yeah. It's just horrible. Like you're in trouble. Yeah. Exactly. There was like no softness or comfort in in any of this no part of this situation. And um I yeah, he kept on questioning me, started saying, you know, there's a girl, she's been gone now for a long time. Her family's never given up hope. Like, don't you want to go home? I mean, of course I wanted to go home. Of course, I wanted to be back with my family, but like just everything that had happened was so extreme.

Yeah. How did he phrase it? He was in He's in the dock, the officer who ultimately got it out of you.

He said something I need to ask you. Yeah. He is like, "Are you Elizabeth Smart?"

And you were kind of frozen again. Yeah. Yeah. Because on one hand, like my my capttors, they like once we were in the camp, they didn't speak with you, yours. It was always like thee, thy, thine,

like it was all the thous. So I didn't know how much my captors could hear, right,

from where I was at. So, I felt like I couldn't just say, "Yes, I'm Elizabeth Smart." Because also like they had given me a whole different name as that

while I was with them. And like I was like told like you're not allowed to speak about your past. You're not allowed like your name's not Elizabeth. Like

they had tried to strip me of of everything. Yeah. My identity, everything. And um and so when the police officer said, you know, "Are you Elizabeth Smart?" I just felt like I had to speak the way that I'd been told to speak, hoping that maybe my captor hadn't heard the question so that if some way he had been released, which had been the norm?

Yeah. I wouldn't be in trouble. Yeah. And so I responded with, "Thou sayest." Oh my god.

Think if you're the police officer. I know. I know. I know. I know. She's like, "What does that mean?"

14-year-old girl, if she's Elizabeth Smart, and she says, "Thou say yes." I know.

Oh my god. So that means Yes. I mean, I don't even They put you in the car. I'm handcuffed. Jesus. Okay, guys.

Do is there do you remember a point where you actually felt like, "Oh my god, it's over." When did that moment happen? I mean, honestly, it wasn't until my dad was there.

Yeah, I brought home. Like, they had handcuffed me. They brought me to the police station. I'm like, if you thought I was innocent, like, you would have taken me home. Like, isn't it my right to like have a phone call? Like, I remember being a kid going into my parents' room at night and they'd be sitting there watching Perry Mason. I was like, I swear I get a phone call. I saw that on Perry Mason.

Like, I didn't get a phone call. They didn't take me home. How far is Sandy, Utah from your family home?

I mean, cuz that's where this happened. Sandy, that's 20, 30 minutes. Okay. You didn't have to wait an eternity for dad to Okay.

So, they called him immediately. Monica, there's footage of him coming into the

room she's being held in and hugging her for the first time. And it's [ __ ] I mean, it wasn't until then that I was like, "It's going to be okay."

Like, I still honestly didn't even know if I was in trouble or not, but I was like, "My dad's here." Yeah.

He's not going to let anyone hurt me like these two people have hurt me. Yeah. Like it's going to be okay.

Oh my god. Kind of insult to injury. It takes eight years for this trial to happen.

It so broken. Everything's so [ __ ] broken. Broken and disappointing. And like we don't have a justice system. We have a legal system.

Yes. Mhm. Yeah, exactly. Oh my god. So 8 years. So then what's happening in that 8 year? Are they in jail? They are in jail. Well, I mean they're in the state hospital for some of it. They're in jail for some of it.

The statute of limitations comes up in Utah. It has to be moved to the federal courts because otherwise he's going to walk free.

What? Yeah. Oh my god. I'm going to fast forward to he he he he's in prison for life. Well, I like that.

And she got 15 years. She's out. She is out. She's out. She's out. But what is not in the dock and and and what I got left with so many questions is when do we dare return to school and what on earth is that like? I mean, this recovery process has got to be just so challenging.

So, um I was rescued in March and I remember my parents asking like, "What do you want to do?" I was like I want to see my friends. I want to go back to school.

Normaly I had a lot of FOMO. Um my parents were like you can't go back to school yet.

So I went back to school in the fall. Were they also like you're not leaving our side ever again.

Yeah. I cannot The amount of paranoia I would have I would never I'd be like I'm going with you for the rest of your life everywhere. That's that's it.

I mean my mom basically said that. Yeah. Yeah. Um, were you offered immediately therapy?

Um, I was offered everything, but I did not know what therapy was. I mean, it had like a I'd say it had like a pretty negative connotation attached to it.

That's what New York liberals do. Especially back then, too. I'm like, I just knew it was something that psychiatrists did. And I had such a bad experience at the Children's Justice Center with the psychiat with psychiatrists like a few days after I was rescued because we were told if I talked to them they could stand as proxy for me during the trial.

Uhhuh. Um that of course did not happen, but it was like, you know, I'd just been kidnapped by a middle-aged white man um claiming God commanded him to. And then I was being very intensively questioned by two middle-aged white men clearly religious.

Yeah. Yeah. And like No, you know, again, like I was very sheltered as a kid. Like my parents didn't call a penis a penis. It was like your privates. Your privates.

And so like I I had to go down the whole pathway of being like, "Oh, he hurt me. Oh, he mlisted me. Oh, he raped me. Oh, well he you know he he stuck himself inside he stuck he forced his penis inside my vagina. Like I had to get to that level of language

with the psychiatrist with the two psychiatrists. Must have been so uncomfortable

that I was like this is the worst thing ever. I never want to talk about this again.

Yeah. I don't want to think about this anymore. And if this psych if these are psychiatrists

Yeah. like I am not going near anyone ever again. That makes sense. And now in retrospect, do you think you would have benefited from the right therapist at that time?

I think if I really understood what it was, it could have it could have benefited me. But I will forever be grateful to my parents because they were understandably panicked when I was like, "Nope, nope. I'm not doing this." My parents went to therapy

and their therapist was like, "If she doesn't want to talk, like, it's okay. It's not going to do her any good if she doesn't want to.

And like you need to let her make her own choices and you just need to make sure you're taking care of yourselves cuz whatever she's been through will have been awful

and you need to make sure you're both in a place that if she wants to talk to you, you can be in a place to hear it.

And so I'm I'm so grateful that they gave me that choice. Well, for all of you guys to heal from this, your father has to accept his own shame, forgive himself, move beyond that. You have to deal with your shame. Everyone's got to get their shame out of the way kind of before we can possibly process all this and talk about it. I just feel like it's so ripe for, you know, this is dangerous emotion and feeling uh to be caring. And I bet everyone was carrying a good deal of it.

I actually asked my mom if she ever felt guilty about the window being left like just cracked open. It wasn't like wide open.

Yeah. And she said no. Oh, that's good. Because she was like, I didn't invite him into our home. Like he broke into our home. He violated our home. That wasn't because I said here, come on in. Take my daughter. That's so healthy cuz when these bad things happen to you, you I start blaming myself. You know, my guilt over my and shame over my situation was

so different from yours. Obviously, I wasn't abducted. I was lured. I had bad feelings in my stomach. I ignored those at times. I had to deal with, mind you, I was eight, but I had to really reckon that like, yeah, I didn't listen to my gut. I know I didn't. I feel so guilty and shameridden about that. And at some point I have to go and you were eight.

I mean, even if you were 50 and it happened like at the end of the day. So like my foundation, the Elizabeth Smart Foundation, one of our main programs is called Smart Defense. And it's a like a holistic approach uh to self-defense, traumainformed, but it's a combination of Muay Thai, Kravaga, Brazilian jiu-jitsu. But like my director, she is like a world, like a five-time world champion in her weight group, weight class for Brazilian jiu-jitsu. But she'll tell you like even with all of her training, she could still be raped tomorrow because at the end of the day, the only way for sexual violence to end, for rape to end, is for rapists to stop raping.

Yeah, that's right. To put it the the the onus on the victim is a little crazy.

Yeah. It like it doesn't it doesn't matter how old you are, who you are, anything like those details don't matter.

Well, the part that was healing for me, Elizabeth, that sent me [ __ ] balling is at the end you say you changed your story from you should have done this or you could have done that to you can finish this. You're strong. Keep going. You can survive anything that comes your way. And there's some pride to be had in that cuz you can kill yourself with I should have done this and why didn't I say to the cop and why like the the self abuse you can give yourself cuz you didn't act like a [ __ ] hero in a movie but that a hero is someone that can survive and make it to today. Uh is [ __ ] so beautiful. Um I really appreciated that. I mean, like each one of us has survived our worst day.

Yeah, that's the [ __ ] victory. You're a hero if you survive. And yeah, actually, like there have been times in my life where I've been like I like I hate where I'm at or I I don't like what I'm doing or I willingly signed up for a marathon and I'm at like mile 18 and I've hit the wall and I'm like, what the hell am I doing? Why am I here? Why did I pay to torture myself?

Yeah. What's wrong with me? Yeah. Exactly. And then I'll be like, "No, if all these other people around me can do this, I can do this. I survived nine months of being tortured and kidnapped. If I can survive that and all these other people haven't experienced that, not to judge them because I know everyone has a story.

No, you can survive. No, you're you're a bad [ __ ] You're a bad They probably haven't done that. And so if they can do this, I can do this."

That's right. Yeah. Yeah, you can do anything. Oh man. Yeah. Um, how was having your name? How did that play out? Did you you everywhere you went, you were Elizabeth Smart, you went to college, you went to BYU, like what did it ever what was the weight of that?

I mean, and did you ever consider changing your do you have any desire like I don't want to be Elizabeth Smart, the the girl who got kidnapped? I bet you probably like I would assume you understand like there's Elizabeth Smart who everyone thinks they know.

Sure. And then there's me, right? Well, and then how do you deal with like pity? Because I bet a lot of people even upon meeting you have like this like

oh like you know maybe they think fragile or they like how do you deal with that?

I mean the people that like have pity for me they don't know me. Yeah. Yeah. But that's so healthy to to know that. Do our mom want people's pity? No. But like if it helps them feel better just to be like, "I love you. I prayed for you." Like,

you know, like, "I'm so grateful you're alive. Like, I followed your story." Like,

that's that's fine. I can listen to that. But like, I feel like if you get to know me,

Yeah. then you're like, "Oh, she's fine." Right. You can kind of separate. So, it wasn't a burden for you to have been so well known and then tried to carry on with a normal quote. I'm quoting again Monica here quotes normal life.

Nor it was hard. Yeah. Like there definitely have been times where I'm like I am sick of being Elizabeth Smart. Like where is the

benefit in all of this? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Or what about when you fell in love? Did you feel like did it did it re ignite that cycle of like I'm damaged. This guy's got to know this about me. Or was that you had worked through all that by then?

No. At that point, by that point, I was like, if anyone ever judges me for that, they're not worthy of my time. So, good. Yeah.

Um, no. And my husband, he he didn't know who I was. I mean, he's from Scotland, born and raised, like had no clue who I was.

If the Scots are anything, they are stubborn. So, he was never afraid to like push back or tell me exactly what he thought, which like

I still appreciate it. But back then I was like, "Thank you." Cuz I felt like everyone just like would tell me yes or like go along with whatever I said.

Yeah. Like probably cuz I thought I'd break or they didn't want to hurt my feelings or something. But he was like,

"Nah." Yeah. I don't think so. That's a good partner. I love that about him. Most days 51% of the days.

No, I love I love that about him. What did it do to your um relationship with religion?

It's so funny, Monica, I was just about to say the one thing that was really not addressed in the dock, which is it seems crazy to me that it's not we're not addressing it, is like exactly that. Like how do you think religion is intertwined in this story?

Uh too much too much. It's a huge part of it. I have seen enormous beautiful positive outcomes of religion. It's working for the vast majority of people and it's a gift to people's life and I see that. And I also want to say I'm AA that's my religion. There's [ __ ] knuckleheads in AA and if they go out and they kill someone in the name of AA, that's not AA. That's a [ __ ] knucklehead who wanted to use that. So, I I'm going to recognize all that and and and I don't want to disrespect anybody when I say what I'm about to say, which is the three Judeo-Christian Old Testament religions, the prophets are all male, the apostles are all male, the characters are all male, the leaders are all male.

I think if you're inundated with that and you are a little bit off, I think if you're a male, you think you are entitled to a lot of [ __ ] that this thing said. Well, clearly only the men talk to God. Only the men lead the people. And this entitlement and then also this historic thing with child brides and multiple brides. It's all religion too. And without religion, that scene in the it doesn't work. The scene doesn't work at the library.

Why on earth would this person honor that? That's for postposters when it goes bad. This is the part it goes bad. And and um and I'm just curious, what did it do? Yeah. What did all this do to your feeling about religion? And are you scared to even say it?

I am so grateful for like the values that I was raised with. I am grateful for the importance that family played in my life. Um

for the belief that God is kind and loving and not and he's merciful and not vindictive and like a harsh, cruel God. Yeah.

Um I'm so grateful for that. But now as a grownup and looking back on everything that happened and honestly looking at a lot of things in this world like I think it's too easy for a religion to again I agree with you. There's many beautiful things. I'm grateful for all of those things but also now as an adult like just because someone tells me something doesn't mean I believe it. And it sounds maybe like I'm cynical, but also I just know how quickly people take religion to fanaticism.

When someone thinks they're talking to a supernatural being, there's this is dangerous because that supernatural being has the ultimate morality and the ultimate everything. So your justifications are so built in. Like I don't it's hard for me to get into Brian uh David Mitchell's head and find out if he really believed all of it. But if he really did believe all of it and he is receiving what he thinks is these messages from God, then the laws of the land mean nothing. The police mean nothing. Your judgment means nothing.

That's a dangerous tool for a megalomaniacal narcissist to have. Mhm. It's dangerous. What about your dad leaving?

My dad leaving the church as we're talking about. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, was that part of like So, your dad came out as gay, right?

And so, he left the church. So, I have a really great friend who was raised very, very religious and she had her struggles with it, but what for her was the breaking point was her brother came out as gay and the family was like, "No way." And she was like, "Hold on a second. There's no [ __ ] way that I believe in a god that doesn't love my brother as much as everyone else. I'm out. If that's if that's what you're saying it's about, then I'm gone." Um, and I just wondered if anything with you, you and your dad.

I mean, he called me. It was like 6:00 or 7 in the morning. It was it was like really early and like I was in a such a sleepdeprived state cuz like the baby wasn't sleeping and I swear I was up all night. So,

you know, when you see a phone call at like 6:00 or 7 in the morning, you're like, "Oh, it's horrible."

Who died? Like, who's in the hospital? Like, what happened? They don't draw the lottery winning ticket at 6:00 a.m. It's not like he's calling with great news that's in the evening.

I mean, honestly, I thought my mom was in the hospital, but my dad, he just like it's like word vomit. He's just like, um, Elizabeth, I'm I'm leaving the church. I'm divorcing your mother and I'm gay. Like all in one, like a run. Just like,

wow. And I was like, what? I'm sorry. I haven't had my coffee yet. May I come again?

Sorry, what' you say? And he just like kept going and going and going. I was like,

"What?" Yeah. And like all I could think to say at the end was, "Well, you're still my dad. I still love you."

See, what I was thinking was so weirdly unique about that situation. And why I bring it up is not to be salacious, is you had this thought that I might get rejected from this dirty secret I have and I would no longer be loved.

Mhm. And your dad hugged you in that police station. It was very obvious that would never be the case. And then you're weirdly in a situation where he's got this

shame in and you get to be the person that also would never ever abandon him. Yeah. He'll just never stop being my dad.

Yeah. Yeah. And actually like over the years I'm It's not that my dad and I weren't ever close but it was almost like because I was so close with my mom, like I'd call my mom and my dad would be in the background. So, I didn't necessarily feel like I needed to call my dad cuz he was like next to my mom.

Dad's mostly pick up the phone and say, "I'll put your mom on." Pretty much. Or like if I went to like my parents house, like I'd mostly be there to like hang out with my mom and my dad would be like in and out and be like, "Oh, hi dad." Like, "Hi, whatever." You know? But so then when this happened, like the one like something really nice that came out of it was that like it made me really establish my own relationship with my dad and not just piggyback it off of my relationship with my mom.

Right. Right. Right. So like when I when I talk to him now, like it's very intentional and not just like, "Oh, hey." Yeah, that's lovely.

Yeah. I think you're astounding. I can't I can't believe how well you have managed and healed from uh this insane once in a generation story. And well, no, I shouldn't say that. As you said, it's happened a bunch of times, so I shouldn't say that. Um, but the fact that you've not only succeeded and kept moving forward and built a family and a life that you also started your foundation and you've been very active and you've been to Congress and you are on it. You took the worst situation and seemed to have made the best possible outcome from it.

That's very impressive. It is extremely and I really really appreciate how openly you talk about all of the shame and guilt and the experience in the dock. I think it's enormously helpful and uh yeah, I'm just really I'm glad my daughters got to see that.

I actually asked my daughter if she wanted to watch it with me and she was like "No."

Yeah. Yeah. Do what? How do they compute what happened to you? They don't, right? Cuz you're just their parent. They've only had one and that parent got abducted. That's how parents are.

They know what happened. I mean, they don't know like details, but they know like they know I was kidnapped and they know like I'm like no sleepovers ever

because of Yeah. Yeah. totally fair and things and like whenever I say no to something they're like they're like why? And I'm like you know one to keep us safe.

Uh safety. I'm like that's my job. That's right. Yeah. What's the tension like? Cuz I have this with my wife. I'm like, um, I don't like that dude. Why does he take so many pictures of kids? Why is he a youth c uh sports coach and doesn't have kids? Like, I'm always I'm like way hyper vigilant about all of it. And I think my wife is generally pretty tolerant of it. Occasionally she's like, "You're being nuts. You know, this is this is nuts." Um, how does that play out? Do you guys have these kind of debates?

Um, I say I'm pretty cautious. Um, but also like I like also remind myself like it's not only is it my job to keep them safe, but it's also my job to like prepare them for when they leave home

and like make sure that they know how to like trust their gut and like work through their emotions and figure out their own problems. And so like my natural instinct is like to always like intervene and like

always just be like hovering around them. And so I would say I fight a lot against my natural instinct.

It's hard. That's hard. Which it is hard. But does your husband ever have to say, "Elizabeth, this is not the we're good. This is your stuff." And

he's I'd say we're a lot on the same page like Like my son decided it'd be a good idea just to go to his friend's house for Halloween instead of like coming home first.

Uhhuh. And we didn't know. Oh no. No thank you. So we were like calling the school like calling all of his friends and I mean we we found him.

Yeah. Um and then my husband's like I'm coming to get you right now. Yeah. Can you not do a Scottish accent? I would assume if you live with a sc.

Uh well, again, thank you so much for your openness. Appreciate it. Come to see us. We really appreciate it.

Yeah. And um and and the documentary is outstanding. It's incredibly well made. Um it it's it's flawless. It's so good. It's called Kidnapped Elizabeth Smart. January 21st on Netflix. Um I appreciate it. and um you know, good luck with everything. Oh, where should people go uh for the Elizabethsmart Foundation if they want to?

Yeah, just go to elizabethsmartfoundation.org or we're on social media. Okay, great.

Yeah. Okay. Thank you so much. Thank you. All right. Hi there. This is Herium. Herium. If you like that, you're going to love the fact checker, Miss Monica.

Okay, so we heard back from the New York Times. Big deal. Cuz last week we were talking about

Monday. Oh, yeah. Monday we were discussing the armchair expert on connections.

Yes. And I said, you know, we don't know for sure if it's about us or if it's just a phrase,

but I took matters into my own hands. I posted and tagged Wina, which is why we're here.

They reached out. Hi, Rob. Hope you're well. I'm on the PR team at the New York Times and work closely with WALO, the creator of Connections. Actually, Winoo, we know that that's actually how her name is pronounced, but we just keep saying it wrong. Yeah.

I saw Dax's recent Instagram story about Connections, which inspired me to reach out. We're huge fans of Armchair Expert, and knowing that Dax is a fan of Connections and New York Time New York Times games more broadly made this feel like a particularly fun and natural overlap. Anyway, they're going to send us some Connections New York Times swag, which is exciting. But, um,

I think we can conclude from this that we're right. I don't know. I just don't I need to hear it. I need proof.

I'm a fact checker, so I need to hear it from um ass. Yeah, from WA. Well, first of all, wa um harded it.

Great. Confirmation number one for me. And then this is like it's a done deal. I think it would for me to feel good. It would need to be armchair expert podcast.

Okay, that's asking for might as well spell out our names. She can only be so blatant about her

fandom. He has ethics. No, she spells out there's there's stars on there. What would be fun? Well, a I want to talk to her. So, we're going to try to talk.

We're going to try. Yeah. Second, I wonder how many other things she's a fan of that we're missing. I want to find out her list of her little fun hobbies that she's winking at. Like, how many people is wa winking at?

She winks, but the wow wink, they'll call it from now on. But this Okay, so this is to my broader point. Like sometimes she'll do categories and it'll be like, you know, what what it'll end up being is like movie stars in horror movies. Yeah. Or whatever.

I don't think that means necessarily that like she's a huge fan of those people.

No, for sure. If she's just trying to do a person and connect through four projects.

Yeah. But this isn't that. Maybe she thought we'd win and so that's why she had that set.

Um Yeah. Maybe she when went out went out without money. She was like she's like how do we change it to good hang?

Yeah. She thought it was going to be a celebratory wink. Yeah. Anyway, we do love connections. So it's

if you had to pick between a wink from Wina on connections or a Golden Globe. What's your pick?

Oh, winner 100%. A thousand%. Yeah, cuz I like it entered our other life. Like it entered our real life. Even though this is our real life,

it also entered our real life. It entered in a way that was like we engage with this, we like it so much to feel like, oh, maybe she

likes it would be great. So that was fun. Um, did you have a postshow comedown?

Yeah, I think of my adren I had an adrenaline dump, but also as I keep saying, but I keep cutting. Um, my mouth really hurts

very badly. And when your mouth hurts Uhhuh. And you and you use your mouth to make a living.

Exactly. You're like a prostitute or a flute player or a podcaster. Oh, I can't imagine being a flute player right?

What about a prostitute? No, I could just use my hands. No, you have to use your mouth. Your clients really, really insist.

Trust me, they would not want me to use my mouth if they saw the inside of my lip right now. It looks gross.

You're overestimating John's in general, and that's kind of you. You are never judgmental. Yeah, but your your mouth, you know, you used to talk, used to eat. That's when it's really activated

to drink, which is why I'm extremely dehydrated. And because it gets so much action, it's just not healing. It won't heal.

I keep biting it. It won't heal. But you had a huge output. I just want to acknowledge cuz I was with you yesterday and I was like, I can tell she's had a really busy week. like you were at you w went to six events,

lots of events, different outfits and the and the the stress of the interviews and the picture like

I could tell yesterday was like a oh my god what have I been through in the last six days and I was doing that with a flu as well. Yeah.

Yeah. It was a mix because it was it was a lot of events over the course of the week which were fun. like they're fun, but they, you know, I think people I'm just going to get, you know, people look at celebrities, movie stars mainly, and TV stars and stuff, and they're like, what do they have to complain about? They just go and get their makeup done and their hair done, and they wear cute outfits, and they take pictures and like

like annoying for you to complain, which I get. Yeah. But it's not that easy to like it it takes a long time. These glam routines

take a long time. Unless you're a dude. Yeah, exactly. If you're a woman, you it's it's hours and hours. And if you have a job as I do,

you don't have other things fall by the wayside. So then there's like stress building because you're like, "Oh, I'm behind on this and I'm behind on this and I'm just sitting here getting my makeup done like eek."

Yeah. I don't think being prettier is going to help with the edit. Exactly. And then the main thing for me, and this is this is weird because it's normally not very cold in California. It was cold last week. Very

chilly. It was cold. I was outside in a You can't wear a jacket, right? You're not allowed if you're a if you're a woman

No. to wear a jacket because there are pictures and you got to stand on your tiptoes and your purse is a [ __ ] joke. I was thinking this because I'm always in this sit with Kristen. I'm going places with her and she has this clutch. It's a joke. It's not even a thing. And so I'm holding all of her stuff. You phone won't fit in there. You know, the [ __ ] nicotine spray won't. So I'm, you know, come multiples and I'm just like, why is a why is a bigger purse ugly? What the [ __ ] Why can't you have like a normalsiz purse on the

kind like in life like you there are big My purse is enormous and it's very cute I love it

kit yeah I have a full pharmacy in there your apothecary but I can't no you can't that would be a big like bad thing to do faux paw to bring a big purse you bring a tiny purse it's a you can't wear a coat because that covers up your outfit and so you're also freezing cold but have to act very very comfortable.

Oh, but I just had a breakthrough idea for you for your first billion dollar um business.

Okay. You need to design a very elegant handbag that has like it's designed to hold your pharmacy.

Oh, like it has individual compartment, you know, it's got like pill packets that come in there and like little uh sleeves like you put a coat can in, but it's for pillsiz things and it cuz generally it's just slloshing around. But if you the whole inside was lined with like little railings to put all your pills and your bottles

and you somehow do a play on apothecary. I don't know. I don't have it yet. But it's like apothecary. You know, it's a bag of gary or something. You some bag and apothecary are mixed.

Okay. And that's your new billion dollar idea. The problem is I only want 100 million of it.

I just want a little million%. Uh-huh. The issue is, although I could do a good marketing campaign and stuff.

Yeah. Yeah. But like I'm the only one walking around with a pharmacy in my bag.

It may be as complete as yours, but I'm telling you, most women when I say I need something, they have like they have [ __ ] Advil in their purse. Like they have stuff.

They have the basics. All you women have medicine in your purse to varying degrees. Okay. But people have the basics. But mine is extreme. And it it comes I know cuz I'm with other women and people be like h I'm

wish I had a maid doll. Yeah. And then I'm like I have it and they're like I didn't even know they still made those anymore. And it's like I have it or it's old but I have it.

There's a spill and I'm like here's my Tide stain stick. No one else has it. You know I have it all.

Yes. And so I need to figure out a way to convince the world that they need it all. I can men get on board too. And it's like there's also a man bag. We don't believe in medicine or carrying medicine until

you know that. You know that. I know. But I've also provided from my pharmacy to men because they're like they're so injured and hurt.

I'm all over the place. Sorry. ADHD now. But this hit me as a theory the other day. I was reading an article about that sad seasonal affected disorder. Effective disorder.

Yes. Which I suffer from. Women suffer from five acts of men. I just read this two days ago and I started thinking, of course it is because y'all were gatherers

and you're gathering when it's sunny and in the winter time there's not much to be picked. Now granted, I understand women were doing a lot of other stuff, but the trips out, the exercise, the walk, the gathering, the chatting that happened in hunting gathering, all that stuff is diminished during these cold and uh nonh harvesty months. And I think there's some connection there. That's my new theory.

Okay, I like that theory. Now, when did daylight savings start? It started I wanna I'm gonna guess Rob, you're gonna look it up, but I'm gonna guess it started in the 50s and it has something to do with farming.

Oh, right. Yeah, it has something to do with farming and some Oh, it has something to do with kids working before school. So, I think when school got mandatory, you needed daylight to get the kids to be able to work a little bit before they went out. What is it, Rob?

All right. It was a wartime measure in 1918 for seven months during World War I. the uh it was added in the interest of adding more daylight hours to conserve energy resources.

Oh wow. I [ __ ] got that way wrong. Why do we both think that thing I just said?

Yeah, I heard that too. Maybe you told me. Urban legend. I think either work. Okay.

No, we're here for facts, Rob. Early 70s there was another energy crisis and they passed a bill in Congress to make it permanent.

And then Arizona said, "Fuck that." And Hawaii said, "Fuck that." I know. And I wish California had said [ __ ]

We already said [ __ ] it. I don't know why we can't enact it. It's We looked it up once, I forget.

But you know, I've changed my tune on it a little bit. I know. Do this. And you may too as you age.

Because I now get up earlier. Oh. And I love my favorite thing is I'm on my bed meditating and quite often I start it's dark and then at the end of that 20 minutes I open my eyes and I can see the hillside of Griffith Park is now lit up.

That's nice and I love that. And but right before daylight savings kicks in, I'm doing that whole thing in the dark

and I'm like I'm up and it's depressing to be starting my day in the dark. But you sleep a little later. So you're never dealing with when it's dark. It doesn't get light till 7:30. You don't really know.

Okay. I've been wanting to bring this up forever. Okay. I wrote it down in my notes of fact check stuff.

Great. About a month and a half ago. Okay. As you know, I cut my hair. Uhhuh. And my bathroom isn't back lit. It's all front lit.

Uhhuh. So when I work out, I get this crazy view of stuff going on behind my head that I normally can't see.

Yeah. And so I have moved a set of scissors into the gym. Right. And so you might know that I I trim my hair while I'm working out pretty often. I'll always trim it in two different spots and then I get the vacuum out and I vacuum where my hair fell.

Okay. But as I'm doing that, I realize I'm seeing your guys' hair everywhere. Oh no.

Yeah. Like you you guys are just dumping [ __ ] hair everywhere and it's long as hell and you guys never think I better vacuum that up. So, I'm seeing in the gym there's just like long hairs laying everywhere. And then I think,

why can't I just leave my cutings on the ground? But isn't that funny? But if you think about it, there's more of y'all's long crazy hairs than my little short trimmings. But I would feel insane to leave those short trimmings, which you probably can't even see.

But it's Why isn't it the same? Okay, it's different because our hair isn't falling out in like a big clump on the ground and then there's just a big clump there. It's like one like probably just fell out and then like later over there one will fall out.

And then after a week of that, if I look across my gym floor, there's long hair everywhere. You actually can't see any of my trimmings.

But you can't I'm not going to get a vacuum to vacuum up one hair. Thank you. You're right. I know you won't. And and none of you will. But but it's insane. God,

it's insane that mine's like tinier and I'm like, "Of course I'm going to clean up the hair that I put on the ground."

Okay. But if like when I get my hair cut Uhhuh. I clean up that hair, right? Because it's an enormous pile.

Well, cuz there's it's it's in a pile. It's not like it's scattered around. Well, let's not use hypotheticals. Let's use the one that's happening in my gym. So, there's these little tiny like I'm cutting, you know, probably a quarter of an inch off in places.

But how much? Like how much? You can't see it. That's what I'm trying to tell you.

Like eight hairs, you know, whatever. I just do a snip. But my my here's my point. We're miss where we've missed the forest for the trees or whatever the saying is.

No, that's these are important questions. You can't even see where my hair is on the ground after I trim.

Okay. And yet I know I would feel insane to not get the vacuum out and vacuum where I was standing cuz I know he just cut my hair over the floor. So, are you suggesting women should should carry a a little mini vacuum to just every

Let's see how your bag turns out. If you can figure out how to get a dustbuster in there without a big bulge in it, so it doesn't look like you're carrying around the

Well, the cumulative length is probably similar too. Probably less. The cumulative length of Dax's hair versus long hair,

one of your one of your strands. It's like if you mass if you walk through and you see a big clump.

But you don't that's Listen, I just want to see it for myself to see what the what if I can see the hair.

This is where I'm going with all of it. I'm not asking you to do anything. Okay.

Okay. I'm trying to see if I could just unethically cut my hair in there and just forget about it because there's already [ __ ] hair everywhere and I can see the other hair and no one seems to care about that. So why am I so worried about my little shavings that you can't even see? I'm I'm questioning. I was like having a moral dilemma up there.

Wow. Wondering if I'm free to just cut and run. It's your house. You can do whatever you want.

I know, but I wanted your opinion on it. I mean, look, I guess if you can't see it, you could live

and we're living with the other hair that's very visible until the whole space gets vacuumed, right? Like that's that's the thought. You shouldn't probably never vacuum.

Well, no. But I guess then sure I guess you could leave it until the weekly vacuum.

I just was vacuuming. I'm like this is kind of crazy. Why do I even do this? I can't see my hair and I see all this other hair.

I have a question now. If you're cooking Yeah. and little like you know I don't know salt gets on the floor or something. Just a little bit like a one or two.

Do you vacuum it up? Not for two grains of salt. Right. Exactly. So it's kind of like that. Like when you're cooking it's like sometimes things get on the floor. I don't vacuum after every time I cook.

I know. Which we probably should, I guess. But then, yeah, by the time the end of the week, it's like, yeah, the floor is dirty. It needs

you walk in there barefoot and you've got basically um seasoning like seasoned fries.

So, I think if you're comfortable with it and your family's comfortable with it, you can wait during for the weekly vacuum.

Oh, man. It just felt like a um a pointless endeavor. Yeah. when we were already accepting of all this twoft long hair that's everywhere. The issue is I think the women probably unless it's like how I imagined it in like a big clump

that's bad, right? But if it's like you're saying you can't see it, I don't think I have a pro. I don't think anyone has a problem with it except you.

You should see what I pull out of our drain. I call it fishing. Sure. And about once a year I'm in the shower and I'm noticing, huh, this stuff's starting to back up a little bit. Like the water's not flowing the way I should. Time to go fishing. And I have a fishing rod I've created. It's a uh it's a coat hanger unwound. And then I've bent up a little hook at the bottom. I get it down in the drain and takes a bunch of And then I twist.

Oh yeah. And then I get it out. And Lincoln generally will join me cuz she likes a good cuz it's what gets pulled out of there.

I know. Full possum. No, it's it's a mouse. Like back to your water fear. Yeah.

It's a mouse and it smells so gross and it also turns into like oil. Like somehow it's decomposing. is always like in a black tar.

I know. I don't get that. But let me tell you something. I think you need to teach the girls in your house about hair walls.

No. Yes. No. Because they're not going to then clean the wall. No, they they have to clean the wall.

They have to going to I'm I'm like trying. There's like what they should do and what what's going to happen.

Okay. But would you Okay. So then would you Dax rather have hair on the wall or hair in the drain for you to have to pull out as a rack?

If I have to pick between cleaning the wall every time I shower, no. My resentment would get it's like [ __ ] you put your hair on the wall, take it then to the trash. I like it' be a daily resentment probably. Oh wow.

Versus once a year I go fishing. And there is I must admit it. Well, there's a reward like when you pull that rat out of there.

Yeah. You're like, "Oh my god, I'm so glad it's out of there." It's the same thing. I don't understand what's going on. I need to talk to an evolutionary biologist. When you pop a great pimple,

Yeah. the amount I think about the moment it popped for the rest of the day. Oh, I don't have that.

You don't. I just keep going back to back to the moment. Like there's such a wave of relief. You've gotten that out.

Yeah. And and I'm talking a pop like a satisfying moment. It's like, "Oh, thank God I did that." Usually you regret it. You're like, I shouldn't do this. But occasionally it goes really well. Just went really well for me at the hotel night before Golden Globes. And I just kept think I was even thinking about it two days later.

Like I just want that moment to keep happening over and pop pop. Don't say that cuz then you don't but you don't you don't want your skin to be bad enough that see I think this is skin privilege personally because because I don't have that because it happens enough like it's not like

if do you not get that huge wave in the moment it's like thank god it's out thank god

yes okay great we get that yeah but it's the recurring thing that I think is skin privilege because like I know that's coming I'm doing the opposite I'm like I just like hope I can get a lot of time in between the next time I have to do that.

Yeah. I don't want more. But I love that moment so much. There's something going on.

Yeah. It's like this isn't supposed to be here and I got rid of it and now I look better.

Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare. So, wait, what were we saying before? Skin. Oh, the rat. Yeah. Okay. So, hair walls are great. Um, for the listener, it um

you you wash and like when you condition and it's it's like it's coming out, you know, it's coming out. You feel it in your shedding and you you like grab it in your hands and you stick it on the wall.

And then you do that throughout the shower. It's important. This is important stuff because you're then you're not clogging your drain. And

but do you take it off the wall? Okay. Sometimes I Okay. Sometimes I don't. But I live by myself. I get I That's my privilege.

Did you rub boogers on your headboard? No. No. I don't want to talk about boo. I did not. I hate the hair wall, too.

You hate it. But you put boogers somewhere. Rob Kleenex. Oh, [ __ ] We didn't have Kleenex. What you guys were the Rockefellers? I would You know what I would do? Kids, a lot of the kids I knew, they were just rubbing it. They're disgusting. I would lean over and put it on the metal railing under my bed so no one would ever see.

I want to cut this cuz this is so disgusting. And yes, I did that. Okay. You put it under the railing.

I put it like under the bed. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Think I Every kid in America must be doing this. I bet like every kid's bed is just full of boogers.

I just flick it on the carpet. Yeah. Some people do carpet. I never did that. I wonder what age you outgrow the booger under the bed

when you can afford Kleenex. Oh, but I don't have Kleenex. I do have Kleenex by the other side of my bed, but I don't use it. Like I don't

What are you doing with your boogers? I don't get I don't do that anymore. I don't get nearly enough boogers. I miss them so much. When you're a kid, you have boogers all the time. I never have boogers now.

Maybe it's because you're It probably is because we were picking them out and so it was creating like more and more and more

like my throat clearing. Yeah. When you don't touch it, it's just like it's fine.

Once in a blue mountain, I'm digging around cuz God, I inspect all the time. I'm constantly in my nose like looking for one. There's never any.

That's often on camera, by the way. Me looking. You do touch your nose a lot. No, I don't.

Yeah. Stop. Well, my [ __ ] nostrils. Like, nobody, you know, I can put two fingers in my nostrils. No problem. Most people can't do that.

Yeah, I can't do that. Well, I can almost ow. I mean, I have the biggest nostrils. You remember my People Teen People magazine shoot when I was Yeah. skydiving and I look like Porky the Pig.

You told us about it, but we never We couldn't find it and we shouldn't find it.

No, I hope if anyone has it, please burn it. Yeah. Um or tuck it under your booger railing under your bed.

No, don't. Guys, I don't want to talk about boogers. for some reason of all I know for some reason of all the things we talk about so much gross stuff and I'm I'm actually I'm fine with

all of it but there is something about boogers that is disgusting to me and I don't know what where that line is drawn like why

probably because when I was a kid like boogers are the thing that makes you gross

yeah they're disgusting on other people but that's Just like farts. Reading so many new articles that it's really good to smell your farts. I sent you one and said you're going to die.

No, it didn't. Not to smell them. What did it say? It said the gas is good for your body

to It says it's it holding in farts is bad. I sent you another one. There's some Yeah, there's some chemical compound that they have figured out is good for you to breathe in.

Oh my god. Yeah. And I said you're going to die if you don't start farting and breathing them.

I'm not doing it. I'd rather I'd rather die. I guess this is This is where we're at.

I know I've already told this, but it reminds me of the time I went to my brother's field hockey game and I was like six and I was sitting on this log and in fact it was a telephone pole laid on its side that was a makeshift bench in a field.

Okay. And uh and I'm sitting on it and I'm watching my brother play field hockey and another little boy sat down next to me. He was my age and we're just he's probably watching his brother.

Yeah. And then out of nowhere we're both just looking forward and he goes, "You eat your boogers."

Just that was the icebreaker. You eat your boogers. And I didn't I'm not judgmental of it, but I didn't eat my donuts.

And I was like, "No." And he's like, "No." And I'm like, "No." He goes, "I do."

Oh, like he had to get it off his chest or something. Maybe I've always Monica, I'm about to compliment myself. I've always had the skill. Maybe people just want to tell

I've always had the skill bringing out people. People want But I didn't even do I didn't even do anything. There's just something about my face where people like, "Look at this piece of [ __ ] I'll tr I'll tell him anything when he's not going to be judgmental.

Maybe it's your nostrils. Ding, ding, ding. Could have been. But what a great moment in child.

I like that boy because you know what? After you said no, he could have said me either. My brother does. That's what I was asking.

Yeah. He was so into it. He was probably like, "Ah, I can't wait to talk about how the the joy of doing this. I can't wait to find out this guy's doing the same."

Like your joy of pulling out the rat from the drain. It's weird. But anyway, I do want to show you a picture of the rat. You don't want to see. I don't like rats.

I know. No one in my house wanted to see the picture either. I was so bummed cuz I want to I That's like the closest I can get to going and killing a gazelle.

Like I want my family to reward me that I was willing to do the gross thing cuz that's the guy's job is to like handle the that stuff.

So if I do it, I want everyone to go like, "Thank you, Dad. We didn't want to touch that, but you're brave enough to do it."

You know what? What they would do that for? What they would say thank you for? What

is if you clean the hair wall every day. Okay. You're still on this hair wall. Yes, the hair wall is is important and um it it's preserves the drain. Sometimes it's cool like at the end of the at the end of the shower you're like, "Oh my god, like so much hair."

Yeah. And then you're like, "Oh no, I'm in pmenopause cuz all this hair is coming out." And then you forget about that the next day and then happens again. Once you have your period and it's healthy and

well, you still have your period during period menopause. I know. Um anyway, um hair wall. Do you think I could Okay, maybe I could have a a product a new product.

Well, I was just going to say, why don't you have a suction cup with a little bucket on there,

right? That you can just dump the hair in there. Yeah. It's just like more fun with cuz it's not even about It's efficient cuz you're just like you're doing this and then you just

She's running her hands through her hair. cuz of the water. Um, are you going to duck and do this in your new fancy bathroom? Of

course. Oh my gosh. I'm not going to clog up the drain in my new fancy. That's true.

And the the primary bath has blue tile. So, I bet my black hair on that blue tile would be so nice.

Oh, yeah. Really nice. I have a humongous thing. I have to pause this. I thought we were doing this tomorrow, so I had prepared for this, but now I'm remembering I have something enormous. Can you give me one second? and I'll be right back.

Okay, I'm back. Okay. Um, Groot, what happened? Got fan mail. Oh wow. Hi, Groot.

And Delta is so pumped. Oh my god, she's I came home yesterday and I said, "Where's Delta?" And Kristen said, "She's upstairs because Groot got fan mail." And they were up there going through the fan mail together.

What is it? Groot was sent by Joseph Lopez a book. Oh, wow. Yes. It's called Mave and Charlie Meet the Neighbors.

Oh. It's about a dog and a I guess that's a squirrel or chipmunk or ringtailed lemur.

I'm not good. Animals as you know. Okay. Um but he got his first bit of fan mail.

Was there like a Groot is he's famous. Oh my god. Groot. He hasn't acted the least bit different. But this book has been dedicated to Groot and signed by the author.

Much love. That is so cute. Joseph Lopez, thank you. This made everyone's day. This is so sweet.

I am I'm a little I'm concerned. I already predicted this in my head. What's your concern?

He's a kid. He's handling it so well. He doesn't acted entitled at all. He's completely humble.

Okay. He's humbled by the gesture. He's more humble post fan mail than prefan mail.

Okay. I just, you know, it's like child stars is a tricky thing. It is a tricky thing. But if you've got great parents Yeah.

who have been through this. That's true. That's helpful. You mean greatgrandparents.

Grandparents. I'm his grandpa. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. His grandpa who he lives with though,

right? But you're his grandpa. Okay. I'm his only male in his life. And he really looks up to me cuz he's a boy in a tree.

I mean, I guess since you did drugs, maybe you could talk to him. Yeah. But like I just

What ones are good? See, that's my worry. No, he's not. As you know, he has a lot of different challenges cuz his cardiovascular system is half tree, half boy. Yeah.

He he breathes carbon dioxide and oxygen. Yeah. So, I don't think he should inhale anything.

Yeah. I want him to do anything. I wouldn't mind that he does mushrooms and expands his mind

as a kid. No. When he's an when he's an adult. I know. So, you need to talk to him about that cuz he's going to have the opportunity young

because he's famous. Yes. And and drugs are going to come to him. But he's not Drew Barry anymore. He's not going to nightclubs. He just is here at the house.

I'm just worried he'll start sneaking out, hanging out with other celebrity kids.

Celebrity kids. Who are the hot celebrity kids now? I feel like when we were young, there were so many celebrity kids and I don't feel like there's a lot now.

Yeah. There were the Stranger Things kids, but now they're adults. You're right. Um,

can you say you saw one? He was hot. Yeah, he's hot. [ __ ] Yeah, he's not a kid anymore. He's 33. No, the um adolescent boy. The boy from adolescence.

Yes, he's he's a child star. Kid star. He's won every award they make. Exactly. Yeah. Who else? What happens is a few child stars go awall and then we just think all child. But look, I was friends with Josh Hutcherson and Jonah Bobo. I' I'm all the ones I knew have done just fine.

Yeah, that's true. Okay, this brings up my last point. I'm done with points. Okay.

The more that the film business has eroded, which it has so dramatically. Mhm. Yeah.

The Oscars means less and less and less. I was even thinking like what who even comes now? You got like two good movies that I or four good movies.

Wow. It's It's really like more and more that show's going to mean nothing. H cuz of the movies that are getting made, they're like big spectacle movies.

Yeah. And then there's a couple movies no one sees. There's not like this huge, you know, treasure trove of 35 to $60 million movies that were made. Your, you know, your Michael Clayton's all these incredible movies that we all love.

They don't exist. There's really tiny independent movies and then there's a couple big movies and just all in all it means less and less and yet that's still somehow got the most cache and it makes less and less sense now. Like are they going to use are they going to incorporate TV or what?

Well, no, I still think it used to it used to still kind of be that like there would be indie there'd be you know critical darlings.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. and then one or two like big movies. And I think that's gonna happen that hap that's gonna happen this year.

But the point is is in 2004 there were 35 movies that all did well that everyone saw that big stars were in.

Yeah. And now there's about five. I mean, it just really has just quantity has shrank by 85%.

And it was a real shootout. It's like right now it's like, you know, it's really between a couple movie. There's only a couple of big great movies. It means less and less.

Mean, but it's I guess then it's like getting into that club like being a critical darling.

But at what point do like like certainly viewership like no one's even seen the couple movies that they're going to have up there? You know, back then you like you had a bunch of favorite movies. You saw 10 excellent movies that year. You wanted to see which one was going to win best picture. It's like right now it's like you either want m Marty Supreme or one battle after another. Like there's your 50/50 shot.

Well, no. I mean, Hamnet won the Golden Globe and people really like that, but also is supposed to be so sad.

Yeah. Um and you know, Train Dreams, people like it. It's just Well, also Train Dreams is on Netflix, so it's like that's confusing. Will that be at the Academy Awards? I don't think so.

Of course. Yeah, it was in they release. But again, it's a it's a it's a it's a joke release to get to qualify for that. It's just not it wasn't in 3,000 theaters the way it would have been in in the in the early 2000s.

It matters necess Yeah, I haven't seen this amount of movies came out in one month in 2002,

right? Like from September to December, there was 15 wellfunded, beautifully shot,

podium seeking films. And so are they going to either invite in what people are watching,

which is TV. Oh, sinners will be sinners. Yeah, that's true. That's a good one. Um, you know, will they will they will they widen their net because they're getting less and less relevant. M maybe

people aren't gathering around talking about movies. Like Hammond's probably amazing. People in Oklahoma are not at the supermarket chatting about it right now. Guarantee it. But people were at the supermarket talking about many of the movies that were coming out in the 2000s. The way they're now at the supermarket talking about Stranger Things,

right? And every other great show that's out. Yeah. Maybe. I don't know. I don't know. What's the most popular movie box officewise this past year, 2025? Wicked,

right? Which will probably get an Sinners. Uh, uh, what was in the box office category? They have that now. See, they were smart enough to add that. They're like, "Okay, this thing has changed, so we got to recognize what's working, right?"

Whereas to me, the Academy Awards just like, "No, we're this thing. It's very prestigious, but it's meaning less and less and less." And I just wonder if they're going to evolve. Minecraft, Lilo and Stitch, Superman, Jurassic World, and Zootopia 2.

So, all franchises virtually. Superman. Good for our friend James. James Gun, Friend of the Pot.

Yeah, I like James Gunn. Yeah, that was a great episode. And the Emmys now people want to know the Emmys. They have 10 favorite shows, right?

The Emmys is what the Academy Awards was. You said 2004 Oscars. Yeah. What do we got?

Let's look. Okay. Best picture nominees. Master and Commander, huge movie. I didn't see it.

And original, not a franchise, not IP. Master and Commander, The Far Side of the World. I have to sneeze, but it's not coming. Sea Biscuit.

Oh, original. Huge movie stars. Lost in Translation. Oh, Bill Murray, Scarjo. Okay,

what a movie. These are all so low though on the uh box office. See, that's what

No, not the first two. Uh 33 for Master and Commander. Yeah. Okay. What was the second one?

Seab Biscuit. Seab Biscuit. $200 million movie. Okay. So 17 Seab Biscuit did not make $17 million.

No, it made 120 17th in the box office. Still hundreds of millions of dollars globally.

But he's saying on the list like it's not just the best the biggest movies. It's usually not correlated.

You're just saying more people saw it saw movies. It's more than that. The movies were wellunded. They're visually stunning. The the craftsmanship, they have the budget for the quality of the movies has fallen.

I I disagree with you on that. I think the movies that were nominated this year are very high quality and and good. Whether people see them or not,

I don't know. But they are good. What's the budget of Hamnet? See if you can find that. or any of these really other than a one battle got a budget and that's because of Leo.

30 to 35 million for Hamnet. For Hamnet. Yeah, that's not tiny. It's not terrible, but it's not great. I mean, generally these

these high-end dramas were like 40 to 60. It doesn't matter. Okay. No. Anyway, also Lord of the Rings is on there.

Okay. I mean, come on. Lord of the Rings and then Mystic River. Yeah. Sean Penn [ __ ] Clint East. No. Uh yeah. Yeah. Um, but they were like, yeah, people went just people went to the movies more.

Yeah. And so people were invested. So like they had fallen in love with that movie

and then they want to see if it's going to win. But I think with Netflix and stuff like

people are still seeing it. They're just seeing them in their house and great. So what I'm saying is instead of doing this like fake

we're going to release it in 13 screens for one weekend so we qualify. That's just a loophole. We would acknowledge the real distribution is on Netflix. So just if you're the Academy Awards, even if you don't want to include TV, forget this [ __ ] distribution thing, right?

Include the ones that there's other great movies on other streamers that didn't do the theatrical distribution. Amazon wouldn't put out Roadhouse on five theaters so they could be, you know, there's a lot of these movies, but they're not even playing that game. So it's like Academy Wars, how about you [ __ ] get over this distribution thing. just to get more. I mean, if they want to save this thing,

right? I guess that's true. I um but I like that they're putting movies into theaters. I I've I saw a I saw a fair amount of movies last year.

Let me be clear. I wish everything was I wish it were 2000. Yeah. But because it's not and that's not what's happening.

Who's Why watch the Academy Awards? Yeah. They're probably going to need to um That's my whole point.

Add in the the streamers. They're going to have to do something. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I just looked up 2000. This is like now fun.

Okay. Yeah. What's happening in 2000? Okay. Cider house rules. Great. I didn't see that.

45th Toby. But again, Rob, even 45th is 60 times more box office than any movie that's nominated other than

Do we have that? And Marty Supreme is doing well. It is. Mhm. Because of that kid,

right, Timmy? I admire how much he worked to get that movie to work. He did. He pushed hard. Then we have Green Mile. Great movie. Oh, Tom Hanks,

Sam Rockwell, Friend of the Pie. Yeah, he was great. Crazy. That's a great movie. Succent.

Oh my god. Great movie. Breakthrough movie. Such a good movie. Um, The Insider. That's Michael.

Michael Man. I didn't see it. So good about uh the Philip Morris 60 Minutes debacle.

I'll watch it. Um, can you guess? Can you Okay, I'll give you a hint. Okay. See if you can guess the last movie. It's all It's This is a This is a tough year. Um

they were all tough. That's my point. I guess you're right. I guess you're right. Um this movie is scandalous.

Oh, Eyes wide shot. No, it has It had someone in it who's now been cancelled. Kevin, whatever his [ __ ] name is.

Spy, the big one. Seven. No. No. Uh Usual Suspects. No. Uh Scandalous. Is this where he got sexually harassed at work by Demi Moore?

No, that's Michael Douglas. There's two women. Oh, sexy women. And well, there's three women.

I think I know what it is. You know what it is? What is it? American Beauty. Yes.

Oh, my favorite. Great movie. I love that movie. What about 98? God, did I love American Beauty. That is such a good movie.

Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh god. Okay. We're gonna have to cap it at here. I want to do more.

I know. Maybe we'll do We'll do Well, maybe this will be a runner we do. Okay. But can I do one more?

Yeah, do one more. That's why I said here's where we cap it. Okay. Cuz I just did a random year. I didn't even think about it. Go to a hunting.

Oh, I know this. I should know. This is 96. This is 98, which I also thought was too late.

God, I thought I I know. It's weird. I'm very confused by that. Okay, hold on. Let me Now I'm nervous. But this is what AI um

No, 98's right. This year. This year is so hard. Goodwill Hunting. Titanic. As good as it gets.

Oh, a great movie. Yes. The Full Monty. Oh, show it. An LA Confidential. [ __ ]

Man, Russell Crow was on fire. He was really This is an impossible year. I guess God, you are. You're right. All these years we're putting in, all the movies, at least three movies are like nailbiters.

How will we know? I know. Yeah, it's different. It's insanely different. And I was like, I don't know. Yeah, there's

cuz even if you want like I want it to be sentimental value because I that movie is so beautiful. And there's also a movie called Sorry Baby that I think is incredible, but they're smaller. Like they definitely Yeah,

there things that would have been at the Independent Spirits Awards that year and they would have been in the smaller, you know,

or they might have made it in, but it would have The point is there were studio movies that were phenomenal. Now there's only indie movies that are phenomenal. That's the point I'm trying to make.

We got there. Oh my god. Love you. Let's do some facts. Okay, this was wild. Yeah, it's one of those I we have like five or six a year where after the interview, every single person that bumps into me is going to hear the entire story because I think like most I don't think we were alone in not knowing all the twists and turns of this case.

Yeah. I mean, the fact that she interacted with law enforcement, that he got arrested while she was in captivity, all this stuff is like

if you were watching it in a movie, I I you might call [ __ ] I know. I've also since watched the dock

and you know we talk in depth on the episode which is amazing but there's a lot more in the dock like a lot more little pieces where you're like what the [ __ ]

Yeah. So like watch it. Definitely watch. It's it is so you need to see all the visuals like them in the white outfits is so creepy. Oh my god. I was talking to my mother

um because I was very inclined to share her parting message in the dock as my mother is also a survivor

and uh so she's laying in bed with her boyfriend Dan when I'm facetiming her and he's like overhearing me talk about this whole thing and she and and he goes

cuz he lived in Salt Lake during that time. Oh my god. And he said my ex-wife and I saw them.

No. Yeah. We saw the three people in the white outfits and we were like, "What is wrong? What's going on?

Stop it." Yeah. I wonder if I saw them. If I I mean, no, but like what are you going to do? Call What are you going to do? Call the police every time you see something that looks a little weird. Like, you can't you can't in this city.

Yeah, it's it's um it's a tricky line. I don't know. No, I'm not going to act like I would have somehow done something, but I I the thing I get yelled at a lot for if there was a girl missing. I saw a girl covered head to toe. I think I would, you know, like I think I would

cuz I don't mind confrontation, right? But you know what's weird in that picture? Rob just showed a picture and like

because she's so covered. Yeah. It's hard to tell that she's a young girl. I don't think it is.

I mean, she's so youthful. That eye that whole eye section forehead without a single wrinkle.

I mean, I bet there's a lot of people insult like that feel bad that they saw them around.

Well, that was about to be my question. Do you think Dan's like, "Oh, fuck." Like, I wish I had done something, but you can't do that because like

No. Well, I don't think he thought Elizabeth smart as much as he thought, who are these freaks in our town?

Exactly. That are walking around like it's the 1600s. Exactly. Yeah. He didn't connect the dots like, "Oh, that might be Elizabeth Smart." Cuz then maybe he would feel anyone who Look, any human with a conscience that then learns what happened to her that knows they could have intervened is going to feel guilty. I think some level of guilt.

Yeah. But you'd have to have the inclination that like, oh, do we do I think maybe that's that girl?

Yeah. Okay, I guess I won't think about it again. Then you'd feel bad. But I what I'm saying is in this city if this was happening now and it was this city.

Yeah. I wouldn't I wouldn't there's so many people looking crazy. I mean just being honest like I wouldn't know what was what. I wouldn't I don't you know what I mean?

I do know what you mean. But for me this is different. Uh this is when you cover a woman's face or you're not Muslim.

But I guess we we might have to assume they like are well they don't wear all white.

That's true. Yeah. So, and there would be they're white. I know. But people convert.

Yeah, people convert. Uh, that to me looks pretty distinctly different. That to me looks like when I went to Colorado City, Arizona to Warren Jeff's fundamentalist compound,

you know, I went there three times. And drove around that thing and it's it's immediately wrong.

Yeah. the women are dressed as like pioneer people. The the rate of kids that have genetic issues is so

unignorable. Yeah. Uh it is like a movie. Yeah. And it's not my place to go into their community per se, but yeah. For me, if women are are being subjugated Yeah. I'm like it's on. And I think if you're walking around with one dude and he's got four women covered head to toe and they're not Muslim, I'm not cool with that. I'd have to hear the scenario where everything was honky dory there,

right? I've yet to hear the scenario where that was like a good thing. This uh hearkens back to our last fact fact check which is like you have an idea of what's right and wrong for you.

But we can't really put our right and wrongs on other people unless someone's being hurt. That's right.

Which she was. That's right. But Hezbah Yeah. Um wouldn't say she was being hurt.

She wouldn't say she was being hurt, but she was being by our standards. So this is where things get very slippery.

Well, they get into autonomy and liberty. Yeah. Do you have the liberty to be subjugated if you choose, which is interesting. Like Yeah.

But I mean, yeah, if you can tell this is a kid, but at the same time to pretend we can't delineate the difference between these things, I think, is also a lie. Like I think when when when when men are abusing people, I'm I don't think that's terribly subjective. I don't think um clitorctomies are subjective.

I don't either. But I think you would say in anthropology in areas like that is a part of their culture and you can't really have a judgment on that.

And this was my pretty big issue by the end of my anthro degree is I was like I think it serves an incredible an imperative tool to walk in without any goal of judging so that you can actually learn and understand. Mh.

But we have learned and understandtood now what the clitorctomy is about. Yeah.

And that is to deny women pleasure so they don't cheat on their husbands. Yeah. It's horrifying.

And you can suck a dick. I I have no You know, I can't I'm not a a moral relativist when it comes to hurting little girls.

Well, you Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I guess it's like at what point is it like once they turn 18, once it's like, you know, again, there's some blurry weird It's hard. It is

obviously. Yes. I mean, I think I think that children have to be protected to the fullest extent, but I don't know if you saw that if you're just like, that's I don't know. It's so crazy. It's so horrible. I can't believe she was just walking around

and people were walking around. She was stuck like that and so scared to like It's horrible. I think a trick you could I could get into is when I look back at myself at these different ages, I think I'm older than I was. And I think that's pretty common for people. You're kind of using your modern mind to think about what you were.

But because I have a 12-year-old, it is just crystal clear to me what that experience would be like for her.

And it's so gruesome. So, it's just terrible. It's so terrible. Um, but she's amazing. No, the fact that Elizabeth is functioning and walking around and not only functioning but thriving and has a family is productive is like so one in a million for this scenario.

It's so aspirational. Yeah. And admirable and Yeah. Okay. A couple facts. Also, you asked me, you were like, was that part of why you were so scared of kidnapping? But when I was thinking about the timeline, no, because she's my age and that I was in

You were done with that by 14. Yeah. Or I was still scared, but it had started when I was five or something. But you know what's also really upsetting is like when I was first scared of kidnapping and it was in my prayer and stuff, robbers and kidnappers. Um I I like Pauly class that she was one of the first ones that was kidnapped and that I was young for that.

I don't recognize that name. Oh, it happened in San Francisco and she was kidnapped and it was I I think like a birthday party or something.

Yeah. Yes. Horrible. A slumber party at 12. Yeah. My mom like was like obsessed with the poly class thing.

So she was infected too with the Yeah. She was scared and then it you know came trickled down effect

trickled down economics to me it works and then we were in San Francisco for my mom's work and like there were signs for her up but I was so you know you do forget to your point when you're like you think you're older I didn't know about rape looking back I can only assume that I just thought like they just take you and keep you and you're They're kidnapped,

right? Maybe they spank you a lot or something. Yeah, but I had no idea what it really meant.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The kidnappings really just the beginning. Okay. Now, okay. Kidnapping statistics 2002 versus now. There are many factors stats involved in this that it's hard to find a simple answer. But from AI, kidnapping statistics, particularly for children, show that while public perception in 2002 was heightened due to high-profile cases, the actual number of abductions by strangers has remained relatively low and stable or even decrease over the past two decades.

I think social media and smartphones has to have an impact on the decline. I don't think you could get away with it for as long.

That's what I said after she left. I was like, I don't think that could happen today. In the same way.

In the same way. Um, okay. So, total missing children reports in 2002, around 725,000 children were reported missing annually to law enforcement. And then in recent years, approximately 2024, missing person files for all ages in the US in 2024, although this is still under the children thing. Um,

and also missing person is like your your kid didn't come home from a night out and you report it.

Mhm. It says there's over 533,000. The FBI reported a 40% drop in total missing children cases between 97 and 2014. Okay. Also, could you type in what percentage of kidnappings are from a relative or

known person uh friend or a significant ma majority of child kidnappings involve family or acquaintances not strangers with older data from the Department of Justice showing 49% by family members, 27% by acquaintances, and 24% by strangers. That's actually higher than I thought.

Yeah, it is higher than I would have thought, too. So, almost a quarter. Yeah, I bit my lip yesterday really really bad and so now it's like it's like so huge upper or lower.

Interesting. Cuz I was looking at your upper lip and I was like did you get a little injection or

Oh no I did not. Oh wow. Congratulations. That's the goal. Like I saw in a comment some some woman wrote you have to stop wearing eyeliner.

You Yeah. And I wrote I don't wear eyeliner but thank you for the compliment. Exactly. Exactly. Okay. You said alarm systems work in doorways, windows using magnets. Yeah. When the contact of the magnet breaks, it sets off the alarm. That is correct. Well, those are the facts.

Those are the facts, Jax. Well, that was an incredible episode. I'm so I'm so grateful she came here and my god. And was able she's just able to talk about it and help people like it's so helpful. And you know, we have a handful of people like that, like Amanda Knox and even like Monica Lewinsky who are just like decide to to put their own trauma kind of aside for in order to help other people. And it's like

it's not easy. No. And it's like we have to just be so grateful for it. Yeah. All right. Love you. Happy thousandth.

Happy thousandth. Ding ding ding ding ding ding.

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "Elizabeth Smart | Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard"?

Dax Shepard (Host), Elizabeth Smart (Guest), Monica (Guest).

What is "Elizabeth Smart | Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard" about?

The discussion centers on Elizabeth Smart's extraordinary story of survival following her abduction in 2002, touching on the profound challenges she faced, including sexual assault, and emphasizing her remarkable resilience and positive outlook. The episode also highlights a recent documentary about her experience, providing a meaningful context to her journey and offering an important trigger…

What is mentioned in this Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard episode?

8 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Brian Mitchell, Kidnapped: Elizabeth Smart, Wanda Barzee, Allstate, TurboTax, John Walsh. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "Elizabeth Smart | Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard"?

The episode runs 2 h 41 min; the transcript is about 30,111 words in 838 timestamped sections.

More from Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard

About this transcript: the episode's spoken words as captioned on YouTube, split into timestamped sections. Reclip.Me locates every person, work and idea in the text, keeps the time it is first named, and quotes the words around it verbatim. Last updated January 24, 2026.