The Foster Kid to Prison Pipeline

What this episode is about

The discussion explores the connection between the foster care system and the increasing rates of incarceration among youth, highlighting how well-intentioned policies may inadvertently contribute to creating future inmates. It emphasizes a need for systemic reform, as the current structure of foster care fails to align with modern understanding of child development, resulting in instability rather than the intended permanence.

Key takeaways

• Foster care creates future inmates: a well-intended system ironically feeds the carceral machine.
• Kidnapped by neglect, not abuse: poverty often leads to unnecessary foster care placements.
• Good intentions gone awry: the 19th-century foster care model clashes with modern neuroscience on healthy brain development.
• Impermanence rules in foster care: constant changes hinder a child's chance at healthy development over time.
• Less foster care, more family support: redirect resources to keep families together and reduce systemic upheaval.

Who speaks in this episode?

• Dax Shepard (Host) · 9 min speaking
• Claudia (Guest) · 6 min speaking

What is discussed, and when

1. 0:00 – 3:00: foster care, brain development, CASA
2. 3:00 – 6:00: foster care, Neglect, Homelessness, CASA
3. 6:00 – 9:00: foster care, Neglect, Homelessness, Congress
4. 9:00 – 12:00: foster care, brain development, Washington State

Notable quotes from "The Foster Kid to Prison Pipeline"

• It is a well-intended thing. The problem with foster care is okay in 1890 whatever right but now you know in the last 20 years we American society we have learned an enormous amount about.

  about foster care · at 1:22

• [ __ ] So, this is the thing, okay? Most kids who come into foster care, it's not because of abuse and it's not because of sexual abuse either. It's because of neglect.

  about Neglect · at 3:36

• The refrigerator, the lights aren't on, maybe there is no house, right? Maybe they're homeless. You're not supposed to take kids from their parents because of homelessness, but happens all the time.

  about Homelessness · at 4:23

• This point. We're spending $31 billion a year on foster care. The prison system is insane. So if you could approach Congress and just go Hey, I'm here to save you $50 billion…

  about Congress · at 8:19

• Book. She got this chance after being sentenced and sent to adult prison when she was a teenager. adult women's prison, Washington State.

  about Washington State · at 10:24

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

Concepts & topics

• foster care — Concept · Core topic · 13 mentions · first at 0:35
  Central theme of the episode, discussing the systemic issues and impacts of foster care on children and society.
• brain development — Concept · Key argument · 3 mentions · first at 1:38
  Discussed in the context of how foster care systems are not aligned with current understanding of youth brain development needs.
  Last 20 years we American society we have learned an enormous amount about brain development particularly youth brain development and that is the problem that foster care as a…
• Neglect — Concept · Key argument · 2 mentions · first at 3:37
  Identified as the primary reason children enter foster care, often conflated with poverty.
• Homelessness — Concept · Key argument · 2 mentions · first at 4:25
  Discussed as a factor leading to children being taken into foster care, despite policies against it.
• CASA — Concept · Referenced organization · 2 mentions · first at 2:13
  Mentioned as an advocacy group within the foster care system, prioritizing family reunification.
  People saying that there are people saying the opposite right I know when my mom was a CASA person yeah she said the priority is to get the kids with their family that is the pri that is the priority regardless of what's up with the family.

Places & events

• Congress — Place · Policy setting · 1 mention · first at 8:23
  Referenced as a legislative body that could enact changes to the foster care system.
• Washington State — Place · Setting · 1 mention · first at 10:29
  Mentioned as the location where a new law affecting youth in the criminal justice system was implemented.

Full transcript with timestamps

0:00 So Art is also just a very bright guy and had and a very um say proactive. He is deciding from prison. Okay, life sentence is what he got. And we won't say what happened to Art, but um because it's a spoiler, but he got a life sentence and he decides, all right, despite that, I'm gonna try to reach out to lawmakers, policy makers, all these people on the outside who need to understand this thing, this phenomenon, this way that this system is creating its own um is an engine like the way foster care is an engine in his mind powering the carceral system. it is pumping out future inmates

0:43 in Art's mind. Um, and I think that there's really something to that and it was the same question I was wondering about.

0:50 That doesn't mean you need to leap into conspiracy theory that like this is all so some big cabal trying to

0:55 Oh, not at all. Right. I I can see people going in that direction. It's like no, without any intention this is happening. Correct. Yeah. In fact, probably the opposite intention this is happening.

1:03 I think that most people involved with this system are entirely well-intentioned. I think that the system was founded created in the 19th century out of good intentions for what do we do for kids who have no family who can care for them. It is originally conceived you know as a saving system. It is a well-intended thing. The problem with foster care is okay in 1890 whatever right but now you know in the last 20 years we American society we have learned an enormous amount about brain development particularly youth brain development and that is the problem that foster care as a system structurally it is not aligned structurally with what we now know about what All humans need to develop in a healthy way. That is the issue that the structure of foster care despite its stated aims of permanence is really

2:04 the experience is one of impermanence. Right? You're moved around. These people change. If your lawyer, your foster parent, your social worker, every your therapist, everyone's different.

2:13 Your CASA advocate different. Your mom WAS A CA. OH, GOOD JOB. HOW DO you know that

2:18 reporter dude? um people change in your life. It's all about impermanence. The system is not aligned. It it is it is it is structurally built around impermanence which is not helpful to to healthy brain development. So that is the thing like an inherent fault an inherent problem built into it.

2:42 Yes. So people go Claudia what should what should happen here? Right. Yeah. I'm

2:48 not a policy maker. I'm not an advocate just a writer but um but I do have a thought or two. Yeah,

2:55 please tell me also even you know in the book there are many people saying minimally than if you left every single kid in every single abusive situation that that exists currently the outcome would be better saying that there are people saying that

3:09 there are people saying the opposite right I know when my mom was a CASA uh person um yeah she said the priority is to get the kids with their family that is the pri that is the priority

3:21 regardless of what's up with the family sometimes yeah And my mom saw all these. I mean, like, there couldn't be a a harder situation society. I mean, difficult.

3:31 You're talking about leaving a kid in a house where they're going to get molested or beaten or maybe killed.

3:36 [ __ ] So, this is the thing, okay? Most kids who come into foster care, it's not because of abuse and it's not because of sexual abuse either. It's because of neglect.

3:48 It's called neglect, right? This is the the sort of majority reason on every kid's

3:53 admission form, right? So, neglect can look a lot like poverty. Kid shows up at school in the same dirty clothes for 2 weeks or never has,

4:05 you know, food at lunchtime and a teacher is going to make a phone call or kid is left at daycare, you know, the parents never show up. Somebody's going to make a phone call to CPS like what's up with this kid's

4:17 family? And if you visit the house and there's three little kids and no parents around,

4:21 you visit the house, there's no food in the refrigerator, the lights aren't on, maybe there is no house, right? Maybe they're homeless. You're not supposed to take kids from their parents because of homelessness, but happens all the time.

4:32 Yeah. And you can understand why it would. So, yes, too many kids have been taken into foster care because just because you're poor doesn't mean you don't love your kids. And maybe there are, not maybe, there surely are some parents who are on the margins, do not have the means to support their kids. And if we supported people more, families more, we wouldn't be taking their kids into foster care, right? If we help people keep the lights on, have housing stability,

4:58 basic stuff, some basic stuff. We wouldn't be compelled to take their kids into foster care. Okay? So, yes, make the system smaller. use the savings that you're not giving to foster parents now for family preservation services more mental health substance abuse treatment all stuff there are kids who cannot be safe at home

5:19 really quick I want to say the number because no one would know it off the top of their head but there's 400,000 kids in foster right now

5:24 which is down from even a couple of years ago because everyone goes oh foster care is such a damaging system so we are yes the priority is keep them with their families

5:33 however you can um say you did these things and but there certainly are kids who are being sexually abused or tortured at home and cannot be safe at home. Okay. So you have a smaller system that is just focused on those kids these extreme cases. You've

5:52 you've given more services. This is like a dreamy hypothetical. You you give given more services to their biological families. Okay. So some kids are staying at home more safely. The system itself is smaller now. Maybe it has 200 or 300,000 kids in it or maybe 100,000. But

6:11 the system is a housing system, right? It is essentially you got a bed, you'll be fed.

6:16 Yeah. Right. It needs to be a healing system. It obviously needs to be conceived as a rehabilitative system because we know that every single kid in there has undergone really damaging trauma. Even if it is merely the trauma of being removed or ripped away from their biological parents who they love and forgive even for neglect, whatever, right? Even if the kid

6:42 should have never been taken into foster care and if you just help their family, right? and they love their family and maybe they'll be reunited, but that kid is in foster care and is has severe trauma from being removed and then moved around all these people that they don't connect with cuz they can't connect because they're going to be moved.

7:00 Yeah. Okay. So, that's a housing system. That's sort of a we'll keep you housed until you're 18 and then thanks, goodbye.

7:07 Yeah. That is insane. It is not working. It needs to be a rehabilitative system and not like psychotropic drugs which

7:23 have been drugged since they were little kids with this combination of like antiscychotics and anti-depressants and drugs to sleep and anti-anxiety and you know drugs [ __ ]

7:33 never these drugs were never designed for use on children and children are taking like four or five like a

7:40 cockail And that's the healing. Okay. So, no. Yeah. Yeah. And then they go and they sell drugs and people are like, "Oh, put them in jail." It's like, "What? They've been

7:50 Also, then you're 18 and you're cut off and you don't have your meds anymore." Maybe.

7:55 Exactly. You need it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Okay. Here's what I've been saying for a very long time. I want you to um evaluate this uh theory. And when you look at these numbers, I This is a fiscally responsible approach. Like if you added up what 25% of the prison population costs a year. If you added up what homelessness in LA costs in San Francisco, you're talking on the order of hundreds of billions of dollars at this point. We're spending $31 billion a year on foster care. The prison system is insane. So if you could approach Congress and just go like, "Hey, I'm here to save you $50 billion, but here's how it works. If you are unlucky enough to be born into a house that you have to be removed from, you should be then lucky enough to go to Hogwarts. I think that our foster care should be a place you die to go to with the greatest services and the best health care professionals and it it should be all

8:49 hands on deck. Let's save this group of people and let's spend a [ __ ] fortune doing it. And that is going to save us money down river. half the cost to take these incredibly unlucky kids and make them the luckiest kids immediately. Like that's to me what the approach should be. Is that flawed or impossible or

9:09 it's not flawed? And so one thing that has really surprised me. Um so in general the response to this book has been like yes yes this is it. This is it.

9:22 Yeah. But there are some people who have not felt that way and who have written to me, including researchers who have built their whole career on researching foster care, who have said to me, it's not that many, but it's a couple. And it has stuck stuck out to me, hey, you know, there are some kids you can't do anything for. This one researcher who, you know, is a very credible person wrote to me and said there's like 18% so you know roughly 20% of 18% of kids that are chronically criminally involved and and there's and it's too late for them.

9:58 This is not the only person who said that to me. Yeah, I am shocked. I maybe you feel that way. I I

10:07 I'm kind of offended by that attitude and I saw through the reporting in this book

10:14 that that that need not be true even with Maryanne who got this chance. I don't want to give away the end because there's actually like a narrative arc to this book. She got this chance after being sentenced and sent to adult prison when she was a teenager. adult women's prison, Washington State. There was a chance because there was a new law and it allowed for people um charged and convicted as adults when they were minors.

10:47 Yeah. To be in a youth facility until they're in their mid20s. The thinking being brain development, youth facility, more

10:56 oriented toward therapy, education, right? A more therapeutic environment. Wouldn't this be better than putting teenager directly into snake pit prison

11:05 where she falls in love with an inmate immediately 11 years older than her two doors down

11:10 in in prison. She gets this reprieve. Yeah. After a year in prison, she is sort of in the first cohort to experience this new law. And she is sent to a youth facility even though by this point she's 20 years old. So I visited her there a lot and I saw a change. really

11:30 a clear change. I don't want to say then what happened because that is a spoiler, but I will pivot to another person in the book who his name is Jay's a foster kid in New York City. He has been kicked out or dropped out of three high schools. He lands at his fourth high school. This is a kid lugging his stuff around New York City in a garbage bag. His clothes, his food, his birth certificate. like this is his in literally a garbage bag.

12:00 He lands at his fourth high school. He's I think 17. Nobody thinks he's going to even get a high school diploma. It sure doesn't look like it. He connects with this 23-year-old youth advocate at this last chance high school. She's 23. She's not some highly trained credentialed therapist, anything like that. Her job is get the kids over the finish line. Get them to graduation. That's it.

12:28 Get them off our desk. Whatever it takes. Right. So, this kid Jay is very gang involved. And one reason he doesn't go to school ever is cuz he's always afraid of getting jumped by a rival set. In fact, he has been jumped and nearly killed and landed in the hospital. He has also assaulted other people. He's heavily involved.

12:50 Yeah. Um he connects with this youth advocate. He explains he's this huge dude, tatted, massive, weeping in her office. She's 23 years old. She doesn't She's like, "Oh my god." Right.

13:04 But they connect and their connection is merely Jay coming by her office once or twice a week and they look at Google Maps and they decide a new route to school. You can go this way. You could go this way. Go this way.

13:19 That's it. Yeah, it's not something, right? It's not a deep deep thing, right? They do that nine months.

13:26 Jay gets his high school diploma right before this book was published. I watched him defend his dissertation and be awarded a PhD. This is a kid, right? Like this is a kid no one thought would graduate high school. He's now a a professor on a tenure track.

13:45 He was already violent. He had been and he was able to course correct. Yeah. You're saying it's it's a possibility.

13:51 And Mary, like you it could happen. It can happen. Will it happen with every single kid? Right.

13:57 Say no to everyone because it's not going to work for every single person. Doesn't like I hate that.

14:02 Right. If it doesn't pencil out, don't bother. It work for 10% of the kids. Right. If it worked for Exactly. I'll take it. Right. as

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "The Foster Kid to Prison Pipeline"?

Dax Shepard (Host), Claudia (Guest).

What is "The Foster Kid to Prison Pipeline" about?

The discussion explores the connection between the foster care system and the increasing rates of incarceration among youth, highlighting how well-intentioned policies may inadvertently contribute to creating future inmates. It emphasizes a need for systemic reform, as the current structure of foster care fails to align with modern understanding of child development, resulting in instability…

What is mentioned in this Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard episode?

7 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including foster care, brain development, Neglect, Homelessness, CASA, Congress. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "The Foster Kid to Prison Pipeline"?

The episode runs 14 min; the transcript is about 2,505 words in 57 timestamped sections.

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