Transcript
Talking Dateline: “A Perfect Spring Morning" with Lester Holt and Blayne Alexander
From Dateline NBC · Episode page · Watch on YouTube
· 23 min · 4,637 words · 61 timestamped sections
This is the full, timestamped transcript of "Talking Dateline: “A Perfect Spring Morning" with Lester Holt and Blayne Alexander", an episode of Dateline NBC published October 22, 2025 (23 min, about 4,637 words). It mentions 21 people, works and ideas, including Cold Case, Polygraph, Social Media, David Winston, Lester Holt.
What is discussed, and when
- – 5:00: Aer Spring Morning, John Hanks Alexander, Lester Holt, Maryland
- – 10:00: Cold Case, Polygraph, Montgomery County Police Department, Taylor Swift
- – 15:00: Cold Case, Genealogy
- – 20:00: David Winston, Shandra Levy, Social Media
- – 23:17: Dateline NBC, Julia Simone, Nashville, Richie Rich
Notable quotes from "Talking Dateline: “A Perfect Spring Morning" with Lester Holt and Blayne Alexander"
Hi everyone, I'm Lester Holt. Welcome to Talking Dine. I'm with Blaine Alexander today to discuss Aer Spring Morning, the title of her latest episode here on DLine. If you haven't seen it, go to the.
about Lester Holt · atYeah., We, of, course, reported, polygraphs are not admissible. not always reliable. But once again, the polygraph kind of started pointing toward the husband.
about Polygraph · atWas solved. And I think that it was these two new detectives who not only went through the cold case files saw this, but also spoke to Lauren and kind of heard her voice and…
about Cold Case · atIt, was, a, really, fascinating, I, wanted actually more on this issue of genealogy. We've heard about it, on occasionally in stories, but it's fascinating. not only DNA would…
about Genealogy · atAfter, the, break,, we're, going to, hear from some of you via social media, some of your burning questions about this episode and the way we do visits around here.
about Social Media · atOkay,, we, have, another, question., This, is from Winston at Peewee Winston who asks I've seen several stories on DLine where the boss goes to the house when the employee doesn't show up for work.
about David Winston · atOkay., Hey,, this, is, fun., We've, got, a couple of questions from our audiences at the Dine Live event in Nashville last month.
about Nashville · atDatine, we'd love to hear from you. You can reach us 24/7 on social media at dateline NBC. And if you have a question for Talking Dateline specifically, leave it on a voicemail…
about Dateline NBC · at
Who and what is mentioned in this episode?
People
- David Winston — Person · 2 mentions · first at
- Lester Holt — Person · 1 mention · first at
- John Hanks Alexander — Person · 1 mention · first at
Hi everyone, I'm Lester Holt. Welcome to Talking Dine. I'm with Blaine Alexander today to discuss Aer Spring Morning, the title of her latest episode here on DLine. If you haven't seen it, go to the Dline podcast feed. Pull it up and then.
- Taylor Swift — Person · 1 mention · first at
Mothers, working moms, as we said in the piece. they both happen to love Taylor Swift. literally have this who doesn't but they have a little banner in their kind of cold case…
- Shandra Levy — Person · 1 mention · first at
This as well because we talked about some of the other high-profile cases that kept popping up. Shandra Levy certainly being one of them. And so, put all those factors together…
- Julia Simone — Person · 1 mention · first at
This, is, from, Simone,, who, asked,, How long does it take to put a show together? It depends. we know that we had one already this season that was, at least, 2, years, in, in, the, making.
- Richie Rich — Person · 1 mention · first at
This story ends. So that's a big part of what we do. another audience member named Richie Rich asked, Has there ever been a time where any of you were certain that you knew who did it, but were totally wrong in the end?
- Fire Marshall Bill — Person · 1 mention
Books & papers
- Aer Spring Morning — Book · 1 mention · first at
Hi everyone, I'm Lester Holt. Welcome to Talking Dine. I'm with Blaine Alexander today to discuss Aer Spring Morning, the title of her latest episode here on DLine. If you…
Companies & orgs
- Montgomery County Police Department — Company · 1 mention · first at
Their kind of cold case area cold case office. It's down in the basement of the Montgomery County Police Department. I went down there and it's nothing but just rows and rows…
- Dateline NBC — Company · 1 mention · first at
- DLine — Company · 1 mention
Products & tech
- Polygraph — Product · 2 mentions · first at
- Peacock — Product · 1 mention · first at
Come right back here and listen to the discussion. By the way, you can also stream it on Peacock. So to recap, when loving mother and wife Leslie Prier was found brutally…
- Talking Dateline — Product · 1 mention · first at
Can reach us 24/7 on social media at dateline NBC. And if you have a question for Talking Dateline specifically, leave it on a voicemail at 212-413-5252 or send us a video on…
Concepts & topics
- Cold Case — Concept · 3 mentions · first at
- Social Media — Concept · 2 mentions · first at
- Genealogy — Concept · 1 mention · first at
- DNA — Concept · 1 mention
Places & events
Full transcript with timestamps
Hi everyone, I'm Lester Holt. Welcome to Talking Dine. I'm with Blaine Alexander today to discuss Aer Spring Morning, the title of her latest episode here on DLine. If you haven't seen it, go to the Dline podcast feed. Pull it up and then come right back here and listen to the discussion. By the way, you can also stream it on Peacock. So to recap, when loving mother and wife Leslie Prier was found brutally murdered in her Maryland home in 2010, investigators zeroed in on her husband Sandy only to clear him. As the years passed, the couple's daughter Lauren pushed to keep her case alive.
And finally, 20 years after the murder new detectives got the case and found the real killer. Lauren's high school boyfriend, Eugene Gleigor. Uh, first of all, Blaine, good to have you here. This is uh this is one you go in, you think you know pretty quickly where this is all leading and then there are several points we're just left shaking our heads in this one. Give me your overall impression of of doing this episode.
So, Lester, one,, this, is, our, first, talking dateine together, so I feel like this occasion should be marked. This is a special moment.
I, have, no, champagne,, but, I, do, have, a cold cappuccino. So there, you, go., And, I've, got, this, water right here. So there we go.
No,, I'm, I'm, glad, to, join, you., my, friend. I I mean, this one was a striking episode for me for a number of reasons. I mean, I think at the core of this this is about um a daughter who embarked on this decadesl long quest to find her mother's killer. Um in talking with Lauren Prier, it was very clear immediately that she and her mom Lesie had the kind of mother-daughter relationship that you dream of having right? If you're a mom, you dream of having with your daughters, that you dream of having with your mom. They were incredibly close and I mean just good friends. She was an only child and so that made her mother's very sudden, very brutal death all the more difficult for her to to to deal with over these years on top of the fact that they were without knowledge of who the killer was for so long.
So, I, was, also, struck, by, what, Lauren, has gone through in terms of the lasting impact obviously of losing her mother ultimately losing her her dad. Um, but she has some real I think justified fears now as a result of all this.
Yeah., I, mean,, I, think, a, couple, of things. We talked about in the episode about showers, right? Like how that was a difficult thing for her. Her mother was found dead upstairs in the shower. Um, and so her best friend Lisa said that she would feel fearful every time she needed to get in the shower. She would call Lisa. Lisa would come over basically sit with her in the bathroom. I mean, imagine that type of fear for a good majority of your life. The other piece of it is again that this was an unknown. So, there's always the question of who did this and why? And if they were angry enough or whatever it was enough to kill my mother, might they come after me?
Yeah., But, people,, members, of, the, family, certainly the police, all suspected in this case, the husband did it.
Yeah. Not, the, case, here., Um,, but, the, whole family seemed to pay a price because that suspicion went on for a very long time.
It, went, on, past, Sandy, Priier's, death., I mean, he went to his grave with people in the family still suspecting that he could have been the person who killed his wife. He went to his grave not knowing who the real killer was and still feeling like, you know, there were all these people and all these eyes on him. So, that's something that Lauren really spoke to when we when we sat down and talked. Um, and it's clear that that's a pain that she still carries. You know, one of the things that I've been struck with, Lester, when I do these stories is when there are stories that where kids are caught in the middle and whether it's, you know, a spouse did kill the other spouse and they were faced with the loss of two parents, uh in a way or if there's suspicion over one of the parents and they kind of have to deal with that and that's what Lauren dealt with. Um, but also members of the family. I mean, Leslie's parents
wondered, hey, is our son-in-law a killer? that there was just a lot of turmoil that that this caused in the family.
Yeah., When, Lauren, finally, confronted, her dad and asked him point blank, "Did you kill my mom?" And he said, "No." I um that was that was a very powerful uh segment.
Can, you, imagine, that?, I, mean,, it's, it's one of those things where Warren admitted she was like because the detectives in her telling because the detectives were kind of so sure that it was her dad, she started to have that thought in her mind too. Now, she was pretty clear with me. Um, she never really believed that it was him. She really, you know, in her heart, but she did allow doubt to creep in to the point that she sat down and asked her dad and he said, "I'm only going to answer this once, no, it was not me." And she said "From that moment on, I dropped it.
Believed him. That was it." Yeah., And, I, was, struck, by,, man,, what, if you're the parent and and your child asks you a question like that? It's so This is whole thing is sad in so many ways. How worried was she when the police kind of hit, you know, that that point where look, this is what we got and boy, it sure looks like looks like the dad in this case.
It's, hard, because, she,, you, know,, she, was so sure that it wasn't ultimately, you know, once she believed her dad, she was frustrated because she said, "Listen, I know it's not him. Um perhaps you all are not working the case as well as you should because you are focused on him." And um so that did lead to some frustration for her too over the years. I'm wondering if he did himself favors the way he handled the police pressure. Obviously, they got him in the interrogation room um and you and laid out their case and said facts don't lie.
Uh in this case, looks like they got the wrong facts. Well, watching this and I'm sure that some of our viewers could agree. Um there were some seemingly unforced errors there by Sandy, right? And you never know how someone is going to react when they're in a traumatic situation like that when they're told that their loved one has been killed, when they have to answer questions on police. But it seemed like almost every single thing that he could have done wrong, he was almost checking all of those boxes, right? Um the reaction that he gave when he was told that Leslie had been killed. Uh just the acting strange at the scene according to a couple of people's tellings, going to a dump the night before her body was found, right? like just all of these kind of things that would lead investigators to say, "Well, that's that that's kind of suspicious."
Yeah., We, of, course, reported, polygraphs are are not admissible. Um not always reliable. But once again, the polygraph kind of started pointing toward the husband.
When, you, volunteer, to, take, a, lie detector test and then you fail it, that just doesn't look good, right?
When, he, when, he, said,, "I'm, going, to, do it." I'm like "Well, that's a that's a standup thing. That's That's what innocent people do. Like, yeah, test.
Yeah,, test, me., Exactly., That's, what, you think, too. And then you fail the test. It's like, oh, no, that that's what not innocent people do, right? So
yeah, but, we, know, that, there, are, so, many different factors that go into a polygraph. Let's say that you take it but obviously you're you're nervous you're upset, your wife was just brutally killed. Who knows what's going to happen to impact the results? Um, and to your point, that's why um again these are not foolproof. They're not admissible. Uh but again, it just never looks good when you when you fail one of those.
And, I, know, police, don't, want, to, jump, to conclusions, but as you point out, this this one had a lot of arrows point that seem to be pointing in in one direction. Um the the use of science of course to rule the day. They had a lot of evidence in terms of you the blood patterns and what they found in the shower and the upstairs. Um it seemed at one point that that was going to really solve the question of who killed her. that and once the DNA came, once they said "Okay, we've got DNA." And I'm sure a lot of our, you know, our consistent viewers will know, well, you hear DNA it's like, okay, great. What does that mean? Yes, exactly. Case closed. Let's find this person. But when it's not when it doesn't match anyone, then you're left with this question of, okay we've got something in our hand that would theoretically solve this case, but we just don't know who to connect it to.
For investigators, that's always a very frustrating thing in the first place. But I will say in this case, uh, and I asked Detective Tara August in this, I said, "Did the fact that there was DNA that didn't match Sandy Prior, did that keep him out of jail?" And she said "Absolutely." Like, he would have very likely been arrested had it not been for the fact that his DNA didn't match. So yes, the DNA was there, and in many ways that saved Sandy.
All right,, we'll, take, a, break., When, we come back, we have an extra clip of Leslie's brother, Bill, speaking at Gleeor sentencing. We'll be right back. Do you think that this case would have been solved if not for Lauren's persistence? I mean, she was on the police on a regular basis.
I, think, that, it, was, certainly, her persistence, but I also think that it was the, you know, we always kind of say in dine, it takes fresh eyes to crack a case. Fresh eyes on this case. This case passed through the hands of eight detectives um ultimately uh before it was solved. And I think that it was these two new detectives who not only went through the cold case files saw this, but also spoke to Lauren and kind of heard her voice and and heard the things that she'd been going through over the years that really kind of, you know, lit this fire in them to solve it as well. I want to talk about the detectives themselves. Detectives Augustine and Deploy, they were, we could have done a whole lot more on them because yes, they were a dynamic duo.
These are two ladies. They're both mothers, working moms, as we said in the piece. Uh they both happen to love Taylor Swift. uh literally have this who doesn't but they have a little banner in their kind of cold case area cold case office. It's down in the basement of the Montgomery County Police Department. I went down there and it's nothing but just rows and rows of boxes and files and a few desks and then they have this little Taylor Swift kind of banner hanging up there uh in the midst of all of these files. So they are very very big Swifties but they really had this fire in their belly of we are going to solve this case. And we talked a little bit about the science of this thing, but the DNA is obviously very important.
It, led, them, down, this, this, path, to ultimately this new technology that allowed the investigators to kind of process this DNA evidence in a way that they weren't able to do back in 2001 or back, you know, in the years immediately following the case. And that's what ultimately led them to to be able to find Eugene.
It, was, a, really, fascinating, I, wanted actually more on on this issue of genealogy. We've heard about it, you know, on occasionally in stories, but it's fascinating. Um, not only DNA would link to a specific person, this would link to a family group. Um, and and march police down a certain direction.
When, we, talk, about, that, genealogy,, it's fascinating, yes, but it's really tedious work and it's not a given that they get to use it. We could have given so much more in this episode on it, but we didn't want to sound all like science wonks here. But it's this thing of going through and bit by bit looking at names that match family groups that match from all of this um information that's available. I mean it really is this kind of painstaking work that they embarked upon.
Yeah., And, then, uh, when, they, when, they find they think the match uh the description of that moment was really I think it was very cool. It was it was so I I was in the the you know I was in their cold case office. So I was able to see you know her desk is kind of in the back of this room and I can't emphasize enough this is a basement. So imagine being back there pouring over this information for days on end and then finally she shouts out, "I got it. I got it." You know, you kind of feel that electricity of like, "Oh, is there something?"
It's, the, movie, moment. It's, the, movie, moment., That's, exactly it. That's exactly it. And sure enough she had it.
So,, what, do, we, know, about, Eugene, Gleor? What's his story? So,, one, thing, that, we've, learned, from him and speaking with Lauren, speaking with Lisa, speaking with other friends of theirs is that um I think the biggest chilling thing is that he was able to proceed and kind of live this life um for more than two decades as though nothing had happened. Married, divorced traveled a lot. I mean, he was, you know, it was an airport return that that ultimately got him. Um, Lauren had come face to face with him several times and at one point he even, you know comforted her. And that always seems to just be so chilling uh to me that not only can you commit this crime, but then proceed to live your life uh as though nothing had happened and even come face to face with the people that you hurt so badly.
Yeah., And, it, really, justified, Lauren's sense of, you know, looking over her shoulder literally and figuratively with that same knowledge that this person is is likely somewhere in my in my circle. It's that's frightening.
And, can, you, imagine ultimately finding out who that is? And realizing this was a person that was in my house. This was a person that I saw. It kind of it messes with your, you know internal barometer of of how do I trust people?
The, knowledge, that, the, killer, was someone she knew. Um, that's a that's a pretty heavy burden to carry around.
Not, only, knew,, but, had, spent, time, in, the house, would go on vacations with them. I mean, their house, when you think back to kind of like your high school years most friend groups have a house where all the friends would go, whether you had a pool there or the parents were really cool and would let you hang out and didn't mind the noise, whatever. Their house was kind of like that cool house. That was the hangout house. And so Eugene was, of course, part of their friend group, was part of that group. So he was always at the house. He would be there hanging out. So he was familiar in the sense that Leslie was always very welcoming, would you know, talk to the kids when they were there. So when you think about all of that, all of the kind of motherly love that that Leslie poured into any kid who was in her house back in the day, including Eugene, then that just kind of heightens the sense of
betrayal here that that Lauren certainly feels. And the, question, that, hovers, over, the, whole thing is why? Why did she die?
So, prosecutor's, theory, of, this, was, that Eugene had a drug habit back then and was trying to rob the house to get money to feed his drug habit. Was surprised by the fact that Leslie was there in the house when he went there and turned on her. Um they kept the back door unlocked. That's something that he would have known. Um they believe that's what he used to come in, go out, use the path to get away. And so they believe that he was possibly thinking, "Hey, I can go in, grab some things." Leslie was there and then it just unfortunately went downhill from there.
Okay,, so, the, the, suspect, in, this, case, of course, confesses, so there's no trial, but there is a sentencing in court and that always provides, I think some really telling moments in any case. We've got some sound here, uh, that did not make this episode. It's the family. It's uh the brother in this case of of Leslie addressing the court on the issue of sentencing. Here it is.
As, we, sentencing lessons kept mystical attempts to give some relief to lessen family and friends. But to those of us who are blessed, a person who never had an end, never met a stranger closure is impossible. Obtaining a ring for the rest of our lives. There was no closure to proceeding for less than a year. He went to his grave in 2017. nor was the closure for my parents who went to bed never knowing if your son-in-law was in love or possibly accused. May 2nd, 2001, Sandy Per was sentenced to life without his loving wife and his best friend. May 2nd, 2001 Lauren Buddha was sentenced to life without her mother and dearest print was sent but pain and sorrow she will carry as long as she lives.
May 2nd 2001 less seven brother sisters sent to life without sweet unloving and caring sister. The horror of his murder should be reflected in the sentence.
He, makes, a, he, makes, a, good, point, blade. How is the family supposed to find closure in a case like this, especially one that's dragged out over years and has implicated, you know, many people at points along the way?
I, always, think, that, closure, is, one, of those words, Lester, that it's often difficult to apply because what does closure really mean? And I think that yes, do they know who killed Leslie? Yes. Um, has he been sentenced? Has he admitted to his crime and and vested up to it? Yes. But that almost opens up a whole new set of questions and feelings. I can speak only from having sat down with Lauren uh for an extended period of time twice that closure maybe in the sense of the of what we think about it that that's not going to exist here. I think that a piece of the nightmare for her is over in that she's able to, you know, have that question not hang over her head. Certainly a big relief that she can now say with with uh certainty that her father didn't do it and have the world know it too. Uh but finding any sort of closure or or relief, that's going to be hard a hard fought effort.
After, the, break,, we're, going to, hear from some of you via social media, some of your burning questions about this episode and the way we do visits around here. As always, uh our stories generate a lot of discussion on social media. We've got some questions in there. You want to take a few?
Yes,, please., I'd, love, to. All, right., Our, first, question, comes, from Pam on Facebook who asked, "Why didn't the police follow up with the daughter's list of people like the ex-boyfriends?"
Pam,, thank, you, for, watching, and, that's, a great question. Uh, that's something that Lauren wanted to know as well. I mean, you know, in her telling, she certainly believes that there was a lot of focus because there was so much focus on her dad, on Sandy, that police kind of just leaned in on that and didn't really go back uh over some of the other folks. I mean, we mentioned in the story that at the time she mentioned Eugene Leor's name, he was living out of state. There were a couple of other people that she mentioned that were out of state. It would have taken time. It would have taken resources. It would have taken a lot of things to travel and see them.
And investigators really were strapped for resources at different times. in this as well because we talked about some of the other high-profile cases that kept popping up. Shandra Levy certainly being one of them. And so, put all those factors together plus the fact that they were looking so closely at Sandy, a lot of those things just slipped through the cracks.
Okay,, we, have, another, question., This, is from Winston at Peewee Winston who asks "I've seen several stories on DLine where the boss goes to the house when the employee doesn't show up for work." Interesting because this was this this is how this started. the boss, you know wants to check on on Leslie as to, you know, where are her whereabouts because she's apparently chronically late and that, you know, obviously led to where we we ended.
I,, you, know,, it's, so, interesting, because this was a uh and thank you, Winston for your question. This was a point of discussion when we were kind of reviewing the story and putting it together., I, don't know,, Lester,, I, mean, I think I think our bosses love us. Uh I'm not sure if someone would show up at our house physically if we did not show up to work. I I just I I don't know. So but I could see on the other side people saying, "No, that's that's completely normal. I'm going to go to my employees house and check." I'm curious what you thought though. Did that feel surprising?
Well,, I, mean,, I, was, trying, I, was, trying to think what kind of an office, you know, what kind of job is it? You know is it a small group of people? I but I I was hung up on that for a little bit like what that's a little suspicious.
That's, a, lot. Yeah,, it's, a, lot., But,, uh, that's, why, I'm not a police officer. Linda Deforest on uh Facebook asks, "The police seem to go by first reactions of family members way too much. Not everyone has the same reaction. Sometimes they're in shock." And that and that's a good question. Um regarding, you know, the father, the husband in in this case, um you know some might argue, well, he didn't act like someone who's innocent, but then of course he consented, as we mentioned, he consented to the uh uh lie detector test.
Who knows how someone is going to react in that type of situation, right? You might expect someone to fall over crying. You might expect you just don't know. Um, and so I completely agree with that. And you've seen people give what you would think could be a spot-on reaction of a grieving family member or grieving, you know, spouse, and they're the ones who did it. So, you really can't you can't tell.
And, Glegor, shed, a, few, crocodiles, tears as well. That, was, one, of, the, that, was, one, of the memorable moments of this episode, the the crying the crying. And then finally the detective was like, "You're not there's there's nothing coming out of your eyes." And he says, "Well, I'm I'm dry. I'm parched." So, uh, yeah certainly a telling moment there.
Okay., Hey,, this, is, fun., We've, got, a couple of questions from our audiences at the Dine Live event in Nashville last month.
Oh,, fun. This, is, from, Simone,, who, asked,, "How long does it take to put a show together?" It it depends. Uh we know that we had one already this season that was, at least, 2, years, in, in, the, making because the nature of a lot of these stories um um there's trials, there's retrials, uh there are delays, and you know, we need to know at some point how this story ends. So that's a big part of what we do. Uh another audience member named Richie Rich asked, "Has there ever been a time where any of you were certain that you knew who did it, but were totally wrong in the end?"
M Richie Rich number one that's very cute. Uh you raised your hand Lester. Yes.
Yeah., I, think, I, think, uh, you, know, when you know when we see these stories in advance sometimes I try to before we do these I try to watch them in isolation as a viewer and try to you know record my my impressions of them. Uh but yeah I mean listen life doesn't doesn't follow us a smooth track in in real life. So why should it in these cases?
Absolutely., Absolutely., I, love, that, you watch it as a viewer though. Like don't even read into it. you just kind of hit the link and just start watching cold.
It's, a, fun, way, to, watch., Um, I, try, to, do that much of my career actually is is as watch stuff in real time. Well, Blaine absolutely fascinating story. Thanks for bringing it to us.
Of, course., Thank, you, so, much, for, having me Lester. All, right., Well,, that, is, going, to, do, it for talking dine this week. Remember, if you have any questions about stories on datine, we'd love to hear from you. You can reach us 24/7 on social media at dateline NBC. And if you have a question for Talking Dateline specifically, leave it on a voicemail at 212-413-5252 or send us a video on socials for a chance to be featured on an upcoming episode. We're going to see you Friday on DLine. Until then, so long everybody.
Questions about this episode
What is discussed in "Talking Dateline: “A Perfect Spring Morning" with Lester Holt and Blayne Alexander"?
In order: 0:00 Aer Spring Morning, John Hanks Alexander, Lester Holt, Maryland; 5:00 Cold Case, Polygraph, Montgomery County Police Department, Taylor Swift; 10:00 Cold Case, Genealogy; 15:00 David Winston, Shandra Levy, Social Media; 20:00 Dateline NBC, Julia Simone, Nashville, Richie Rich.
What is mentioned in this Dateline NBC episode?
21 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Cold Case, Polygraph, Social Media, David Winston, Lester Holt, John Hanks Alexander. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.
How long is "Talking Dateline: “A Perfect Spring Morning" with Lester Holt and Blayne Alexander"?
The episode runs 23 min; the transcript is about 4,637 words in 61 timestamped sections.
More from Dateline NBC
About this transcript: the episode's spoken words as captioned on YouTube, split into timestamped sections. Reclip.Me locates every person, work and idea in the text, keeps the time it is first named, and quotes the words around it verbatim. Last updated November 17, 2025.