Transcript

Patrick Lencioni: 8M Books Sold, 'I Was Miserable Doing Work I Was Good At', 5 Dysfunctions of Team

From Founder's Story · Episode page · Watch on YouTube

· 22 min · 4,885 words · 49 timestamped sections

This is the full, timestamped transcript of "Patrick Lencioni: 8M Books Sold, 'I Was Miserable Doing Work I Was Good At', 5 Dysfunctions of Team", an episode of Founder's Story published December 22, 2025 (22 min, about 4,885 words). It mentions 12 people, works and ideas, including Patrick Lencioni, Working Genius, Galvanizing (Working Genius), Organizational health, The Five Dysfunctions of a Team.

What this episode is about

Patrick Lencioni discusses the crucial role of effective leadership in fostering a healthy organizational culture and enhancing team performance. He emphasizes that the alignment of leaders' passions and skills with company goals contributes significantly to success, while highlighting that functionality and interpersonal effectiveness often outweigh mere intelligence in driving company health and achievement.

Key takeaways

  • Leadership isn't just a title; it's the key to unlocking a healthy, functional organization.
  • Great companies aren't necessarily smarter, but healthier—good leadership fosters less dysfunction.
  • Mismatch alert: Leaders need passion-job alignment to thrive and drive businesses forward.
  • Leaders shape culture, but their skill set must sync with business goals for real impact.
  • Innovation often sparks from solving personal pain points; enter the 'Working Genius Model.'

Who speaks in this episode?

What is discussed, and when

  1. – 5:00: Working Genius, The Working Genius Model
  2. – 10:00: Working Genius
  3. – 15:00: Management consulting, Screenwriting, Unlimited Possibilities: How to Live Without Limits
  4. – 20:00: Working Genius
  5. – 22:18: The Table Group, Working Genius

Notable quotes from "Patrick Lencioni: 8M Books Sold, 'I Was Miserable Doing Work I Was Good At', 5 Dysfunctions of Team"

  • What is your working genius? So there's six different things and the two that are mine, everybody has two. And your genius is where you get joy and energy.
    about Working Genius · at
  • Incredible. But Pat, I'm very excited to have you on the show talking through your new book, The Working Genius Model.
    about The Working Genius Model · at
  • It's called unlimited possibilities. How to live without limits. Thank you. But how does I want to know what it's like to celebrate once it starts selling and once it takes off. Like how was that.
    about Unlimited Possibilities: How to Live Without Limits · at
  • Wasn't going to study that in college. I had to get a real job. So I got a job as a management consulting consultant, but I was always writing stories and I took a…
    about Management consulting · at
  • My company is called the table group. So tablegroup.com you can find out more about me and what I do and just know I'm in the middle of this journey like everybody else dealing with wounds,.
    about The Table Group · at

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

Books & papers

Companies & orgs

Concepts & topics

Full transcript with timestamps

What is the impact good leadership, effective leadership versus the opposite to a company or a business?

Obviously, it's profound. It's it's everything. But what I found is that leadership and how you create the right environment is what allows you to tap into your intelligence.

You could have, you know, the best products and services, but if you don't have the right leadership or effective leadership, you're going to fail. And that's maybe why a lot of companies have failed.

Yeah, definitely. I mean, the first thing you have to do is make sure you have a culture and that the leaders fit that culture and promote it. But then you have to make sure that the leaders skill set, their their passions line up with what you want them to do. And a lot of companies don't know how to make that happen.

What is your working genius? So there's six different things and the two that are mine, everybody has two. And your genius is where you get joy and energy. And I get joy and energy out of inventing new things. The second one is called discernment. I like to come up with new ideas and I like to evaluate them before I present them. And so usually by the time I present them, they're pretty close. And so many people think that good companies come about because they're smarter than their competitors, but usually they're healthier. They're they're less dysfunctional. They're more interpersonally effective. And that allows them to tap into the knowledge they have. Purpose of being a leader is to create a healthy organization.

Hey everyone, welcome back. Today we have a very special guest who impacted my life. It might be like 15, 12 or 15 years ago. I read his first book, Dysfunctions of a Team, which has sold millions upon millions. Every corporate job I had, I think we've used that book. But Patrick Lenon, who is a best-selling author of over 10 books, millions and millions of books sold, which is incredible. But Pat, I'm very excited to have you on the show talking through your new book, The Working Genius Model. I was able to take it. You've already given me uh an an individual assessment as well, which I'm excited to go through. But um we're we are really honored to have you on the show today.

Well, thank you for having me. It's good to be here, Dan. So, let's dive into just the impacts of leadership. What do you see in terms of what is the impact of good leadership, effective leadership versus the opposite to a company or a business?

Well, I think that there's a lot of ways to say that. Obviously, it's profound. It's it's it's it's everything almost. Um, but the way I like to look at it is the purpose of being a leader is to create a healthy organization. Um, which is the which is what my my firm does, what I've been doing for the last 27 years. The other side is the smart part of an organization which is like do we have the right strategy or marketing or technology all of that's really important and I started my career as a management consultant working on that. But what I found is that leadership and how you create the right environment is what allows you to tap into your intelligence. And so many people think that good companies come about because they're smarter than their competitors. But usually it's their healthier. They're they're less dysfunctional. They're more interpersonally effective. And that allows them to tap into the knowledge

they have. Well, reading through your books, I I would almost come to the conclusion that you could have, you know, the best products and services, but if you don't have the right leadership or effective leadership, you're going to fail. And that's maybe why a lot of companies have failed. Something that I've noticed is many times companies don't do a great job of really matching people with the right leadership or even the right leadership in the right positions.

Yeah, definitely. I mean, the first thing you have to do is make sure you have a culture and that the leaders fit that culture and promote it. But then you have to make sure that the leaders skill set or or or their their their passions line up with what you want them to do. And a lot of companies don't know how to make that happen.

Wow. Yeah. I I love that skill set and passion. So, let's dive into the working genius model. What was the inspiration for you to create this? It was accidental slight desperation and that is for 20 years more than 20 years in my own company. I would come to work and was excited to go to work every day but I would get grumpy when I was there and I didn't know why. And one day someone on my team said to me she said why are you like that? What what happens that makes you get grumpy? And I said I don't know but I want to figure it out. And so I just sat down by the grace of God with a whiteboard and a pen and started thinking about okay when am I happy?

When am I not? What's going on? and and I came up with this model of that that there's actually six different kinds of work that have to happen in any endeavor and nobody likes doing all of them and I was constantly coming to work and being asked to do things in my own company that I didn't like and it was preventing me from doing the things I loved and over time it was burning me out. So that's how we came up with the model. I thought I was just solving a problem for myself. Some other people saw it and people started to say this really works.

And so we developed an assessment and just a couple weeks ago we hit a million assessments in the last four years. So it's it's really growing like crazy.

Wow. It's always amazing when somebody finds a need within themselves, you know, sees a problem that they need to solve for themselves and when they solve it, they realize like the world needs it. Like there's so many other people that think the same way or have the same problem. So what are you finding like what is your working genius?

Oh that I nobody ever asked me that in the interview. So so there's six different things and the two that are mine everybody has two and your genius is where you get joy and energy and I get joy and energy out of inventing new things. I just love it when somebody says we don't know what to do about this. We need a solution and I'm like let me come up with something. Let me come up with a new idea, a new product, a new approach. The second one is called discernment and that is I love evaluating things. I love curating things. I love looking at something and and seeing what's probably going to work or not. So I'm an ID which I'm called the discriminating ideiator. I like to come up with new ideas and I like to evaluate them before I present them. And so usually by the time I present them they're pretty close because I do both of those things. That's my combination.

So now that you know this, how do you then effectively apply this to your team?

Well, so the the thing I was doing for more than 20 years every day was one of the other geniuses which is called galvanizing which is not a genius of mine. And it doesn't give me joy and energy and after a while it drains me of joy and energy. And galvanizing is constantly reminding people and motivating people. Now I like to do it once or twice and I don't hate it but I don't like to every day keep doing it. And there are people who have the genius of galvanizing. They wake up every morning and they want to get up and inspire people. They love to sell people with new ideas. They like to remind people and get people moving. And I was doing it every day. And after a while, I was burning out. And it was preventing me from doing what I really wanted, which was inventing and and discerning.

So I found another person in my organization that had this as a genius. I said, "How would you like to be the chief galvanizing officer?" And he goes, "Well, I don't think I've been here long enough." And I said, "No, no, you have a genius. I want you to keep us on task. I want you to keep us motivated. And he said, 'Well, that would be the best job in the world for me. And I said, 'Well, it'd be a great thing if I didn't have to do it all the time. So, I still have to do it sometimes, but we're not meant to do the things. I don't think God put us on earth to be miserable in our work.

I hate to laugh, but it just it really reminds me of working in the corporate environment before where I was always forced to do jobs I was not good at or I just hated. And I looked around and then when I became a leader, I would many times talk people out of the job that they were in and say, "Look, I'm not going to fire you, but this department is not right for you. Like, I'm going to help you get a job in a different department." And people thought I was crazy for that. So, what are you seeing in terms of the the organizations that are using this? Like, what are they telling you?

Yeah. So, here's the thing. There's three steps to building teamwork in an organization. The first thing is to get the right people on the bus. Jim Collins used to talk about that and and and that's a are they a cultural fit? Do they belong in your organization? That's one thing. But the second thing is you have to get them in the right seat on the bus. And what you are doing, which is a great service, is saying, "Hey, you belong here. You're a great person, but this is just not the right position for you. This is not the right place for you to be working." And that's an act of love to help people realize that. And that's why the working genius can be so powerful is because people take it. It takes 12 minutes to take the assessment.

They look at the results. One guy was going in for the his performance review the next day and he had had a horrible year. He thought he might get fired or demoted. He walked in, handed them the report, and his boss looked at it and says, "Well, heck, you're in the wrong job. No wonder you've struggled. Let's put you in this other job." He goes, "I got promoted instead of demoted because they finally understood what I was good at." And that's the that's the purpose of this is to find out where you get joy and energy and what you're naturally good at and to figure out what you what drains you of joy and energy and what you're naturally going to struggle in.

And my first job out of college, Dan, was supposed to be this fantastic job. It paid well and it was supposed to set me up in my career. And it was exactly the opposite of what I liked doing. And I I did it for two years, the longest decade of my career. And I never knew why I was struggling. And today, you know, 30 years later, I'm going, "Oh, no wonder I should have never taken that job."

I was fired from my last corporate job. And for many years, I kept telling them like, "Look, this is not for me. Like, I need a different position." And they're like, "Well, there's no one else that can do the job. No one else wants to do it, so you have to do it." And they end up firing me. And which was the best thing ever because like you're saying, I was miserable doing this job that I didn't want to do. But how do you what do you find that people can use this for besides maybe just the workplace?

Well, you you go home and you realize so my wife, God bless her, she was doing work for years raising our four boys, our youngest, just went to college and it was not aligned with her genius. And she didn't know that. She felt guilty and like why are those moms good at this and why do I struggle with this? And and finally when I wrote the book, she read it and she said, this is great and I'm kind of pissed off. And I said, why? And she goes, "Because I realized I was in a job that wasn't allowing me to exercise my genius." And had I known that, cuz I'd always say to her, "Can why don't you outsource some of these things? Why don't you why don't you borrow from your friends and you do different?" And she goes, "No, I'm supposed to be good at this. I'm a mom." And so even in that job, even in that, even in the way you run your house, it's like, why do some families are good at this and others are

good at that? Well, the profile of the parents has a lot to do with that. That doesn't mean you can just abdicate things, but you shouldn't feel guilty about not being good at the things that you're not good at. You're wired that way.

I think that's really great, right? Outsource those things that you're not good at, whether that's in the home life, or whether that's in work, in business, finding somebody else can do the things, and then you're less miserable, and then you can focus on these things that you're best at. Uh so how does it feel when you hit that one million assessments done? Like how does this feel as a writer, author, consultant, business person when you know that a million people or over a million people have taken the assessment and are impacted?

Well, it's it's gratifying because you know that the stories we get from people around how it's changed their lives and how it's changed their careers and how they see themselves, it's wonderful. But I have to say I've got some issues that I'm not very good at celebrating things. I'm always like on to the next thing. That's part of my personality, which is not good, by the way. And so I I I like it. I appreciate it, but not enough. I need to practice being more grateful and living in the moment. I'm always in the future. But but it was really I mean, man, the day we came up with this, if you'd have told me four years ago that today more than a million people would be taking this and it's growing like crazy, I'd have thought, no way. We just came up with this out, you know, we didn't have any idea what we were doing.

Celebration is always a hard one, right? Like it's like we're we're constantly moving 100 miles an hour. So, who can stop? Who can stop to celebrate? Who has time to celebrate success? So, when you look back to dysfunctions of a team and when that took off as well and now you're selling millions of books because I'm I'm a first-time author. I just submitted my first draft of our book.

Oh, what's it about? What's it called? It's called unlimited possibilities. How to live without limits. Thank you. But how does I want to know what it's like to celebrate once it starts selling and once it takes off. Like how was that feeling to you? Because it's it's a lot to write a book. I don't think people realize like how much energy and effort goes into it and how much emotions. But h what was that like when you like man it's validated, it takes off and it's been going for, you know, decades.

Yeah. It's it's almost kind of hard to put in perspective because again you don't and I just say thank God for it all, you know, but I remember I used to write in this hotel not very far from my office because I'd have to go get focused and and people would come there and I would show them what I was writing. They give me feedback and I remember the room I was in writing the five dysfunctions of team and I remember like the characters cuz I write fiction stories and and like how I was crafting the characters and naming them and what their backstory was. And it is weird to think that 22 years later, people are still reading that book and applying the principles. And what I guess what I'm really happy about is two things. One, that it's universal. We we we wrote it about a a a small technology company, but they're using it in churches and the military and sports and places all over.

I remember you're in the Philippines right now. I remember the Philippine national basketball team used it. We found like 20 years ago, we heard that. I was like, that's and Filipinos love basketball. So, we thought that was pretty cool. The other thing I like is that I write I try to write my fiction to be realistic. I want people to read it and go, "Oh my gosh, that's exactly how we talk in our meetings. People think that I'm writing my books based on real life stories and they're not. It's fiction based on what I've experienced."

But I love the fact that people can relate to the dialogue and the characters and feel like it's real and it's not fluffy and silly.

So, was your strategy all along to do that fiction style? because I've seen that with you and and I think it's it's something that's almost maybe becoming more popular because we were even approached when we about our book to do that. The the uh the editor said, "Hey, this might be something you want to look into and I thought it was so I started really diving into this style." But was this your approach all along to do this fictional style or did it just happen to be that way?

Well, you know, two things happened. I think first of all, throughout my life, I've been writing stories. I've I've always wanted to be a fiction writer. I was we were pretty poor growing up and I wasn't going to study that in college. I had to get a real job. So I got a job as a management consulting consultant, but I was always writing stories and I took a screenwriting class in college and my books read more like screenplays than book. Like it's a lot of dialogue and quick setup of what's going on. I don't go into a lot of like physical detail.

It reads more like a screenplay. So that's that's where that came from. I've always loved fiction writing and I spent a lot of time practicing it for fun. But the other thing was I remember when I wrote my when I started to write my book somebody said you should write a book about this and I remember thinking I love writing fiction and I want to write something that will keep people's interest even if they don't like to read that they'll that I want something they can finish on a two-hour plane ride and at the end of it they can go I I can't believe I just finished that because it's I want it to be like a page turner.

So, I did that on purpose and then in the back I kind of describe what it's about and I didn't know if people were going to like that or not. We didn't have a publisher when I first started writing. So, um and then we wrote one book that wasn't fiction. It was really hard. It was really hard. They're both hard in their own way, but I would say I do like bringing the principles to life through story.

I'm with you. I can I have a really hard time reading books and nonfiction is really it's it's a struggle for me. I can maybe listen but fiction though like you're saying I get captured into the the storyline and I'm like envisioning it. It's it's way better. And if the fact that you're learning something which I think is one of the reasons why your book is the book you know 15 years ago dysfunctions of a team was like one of the first books I think I I I read because the company was always giving us books but it's the only one that I really read. Um and I just lied to them.

I always said I read all the other books. I am I am curious though in your life is there a leader or somebody that's had a major impact on you? The answer is of course yes, but it's always been little steps along the way and it it wasn't like there was one that I can recall. Um you know I mean I had a my I had a track coach when I was in high school um who became like a dear friend and a mentor to me and so he was only like four years old five no five years older than me but he was very much a leader and a motivator to me and he was killed in a car accident right when I graduated high school which was tragic.

died when he was 23, but his name was Joel. And Joel was a leader. He was passionate. He was unafraid. And I loved that. And then in the corporate world, every once in a while, I'd meet some and they all had different qualities. I remember this one guy, Mark, who was super humble, and I loved that. And I had this woman, Sally, I worked with for and and she was she was really appreciative and interesting. Um, but I learned a lot from the leaders who weren't good, too, because I would see them and I would think, "Oh, man, if they didn't do that, this would be so much better." So, so there were leaders along the way. Certainly,

I can totally remember the bad leaders I've had and what I've learned. It's almost hard sometimes to remember the really good leaders, unfortunately. Right. But I really I'm with you on that. So, where do what's next for you? What do what do you see in the next few years? Like uh where are you going with this assessment, your new book? Like what do you see the future of pet? Well, one of the things I've realized, Dan, is that in addition to people understanding their working genius, which is what they like to do, and then and then you have to understand your MyersBriggs and other there's other wonderful tools out there that are more about the noun, about who you are, but the working genius is about what you like to do.

There's this other thing about life experience and wounds that when people don't know how they've been wounded in their life, sometimes they they're acting out of their woundedness, a lot of leaders do this almost as though it's a it's a superpower. And when they realize what their wounds are, it can change everything. There's a lot of leaders who are successful, but they're kind of fearing failure or they're they're addressing problems in their life that aren't really healthy. And I I've I've discovered that in myself and I'm exploring all those things and I'm going to write a book about how to help leaders and anyone identify what wounds they might have so they can begin the process of looking into them and getting healed.

Wow. I guess that would be when you say wound, is that like trauma? Yeah. And sometimes it's trauma that happened during your whole life when you were a kid and you learned to cope with it and then that turned into how you actually succeeded. Like in my life, I was I got really good at things I hated because I wanted approval and I wasn't getting it. And so I decided I better just be good at everything that every coach, teacher, parent asked me to do. So I had this perfection complex that carried over into my adult life. And the problem was I was actually pretty good at stuff I hated. And that's not a good thing because then you just keep doing more of that. And so when people realize who they are and what they're great at and then they can invite other people who have different talents into their life to to supplement them and they can come to terms with why they work so hard and why why they're motivated, you can

really heal. And that's a that's that's the next step I think for me is helping people heal who might not realize what's going on.

Wow. So everyone needs to take the assessment today and then 12 minutes. It takes 12 minutes to fill the assessment out.

Very easy. But when you come out with your new book, you have to come back because the I need to find out the reason why I always feel like I have to prove people wrong. I have to work through this. You know, I gotta I have to figure these things out. Now that you're saying it, I think this next book might be the most emotionally intense but required by everyone because everyone I know I mean you know like entrepreneurs who are super motivated leaders like they they're doing this because they have a lot of trauma like they have things that they don't deal with and we know it comes out like we've seen so many people have successful companies

and then their traumas come out and then they end up like destroying the culture or for whatever reason and they never face it. So you got to come back. But if people want to take the assessment, they want to get in touch with you, how can they do so?

So the working genius assessment is at working genius.com. workinggenius.com. There's two G's in the middle and there's all kinds of free resources. The assessment, you can get it there. You could do a team map where a whole team can do it and see where the gaps are as a as a team. It's very interesting. There's all kinds of assess stuff there. My company is called the table group. So tablegroup.com you can find out more about me and what I do and um and just know I'm in the middle of this journey like everybody else dealing with wounds, dealing with what what I'm good at and figuring out where we're headed and through a lot of prayer faith in God and trying to keep learning. And that's what you're helping people do is keep learning. That's how we we move forward.

Wow. Well, I'm honored. I never thought, you know, 15 12 years ago that I would meet you. Like you never know in life how things will go. like I was just a sales associate, you know, like I never thought that I would one day get to have this conversation. You are one of the most humble I can tell amazing humans in just 15, 20 minutes. The fact that you ask questions is rare. Most people don't ask questions or inquisitive about other people. So, I really appreciate you coming on today and I think a lot of people are going to get huge benefit uh from what you're doing and what you're doing in the future and what you've already done in the past. But but Patrick, thank you so much for joining us today.

Thank you, Dan, and good on you for what you're doing. God bless you.

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "Patrick Lencioni: 8M Books Sold, 'I Was Miserable Doing Work I Was Good At', 5 Dysfunctions of Team"?

Dan (Guest), Patrick Lencioni (Guest), Joel (Guest), Mark (Guest), Sally (Guest).

What is "Patrick Lencioni: 8M Books Sold, 'I Was Miserable Doing Work I Was Good At', 5 Dysfunctions of Team" about?

Patrick Lencioni discusses the crucial role of effective leadership in fostering a healthy organizational culture and enhancing team performance. He emphasizes that the alignment of leaders' passions and skills with company goals contributes significantly to success, while highlighting that functionality and interpersonal effectiveness often outweigh mere intelligence in driving company health…

What is mentioned in this Founder's Story episode?

12 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Patrick Lencioni, Working Genius, Galvanizing (Working Genius), Organizational health, The Five Dysfunctions of a Team, Working Genius (website/assessment platform). Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "Patrick Lencioni: 8M Books Sold, 'I Was Miserable Doing Work I Was Good At', 5 Dysfunctions of Team"?

The episode runs 22 min; the transcript is about 4,885 words in 49 timestamped sections.

More from Founder's Story

About this transcript: the episode's spoken words as captioned on YouTube, split into timestamped sections. Reclip.Me locates every person, work and idea in the text, keeps the time it is first named, and quotes the words around it verbatim. Last updated January 24, 2026.