Transcript

AI and the Transformation of Business with Leo Pajera

From Home Service Expert · Episode page · Watch on YouTube

· 50 min · 10,074 words · 146 timestamped sections

This is the full, timestamped transcript of "AI and the Transformation of Business with Leo Pajera", an episode of Home Service Expert published September 22, 2025 (50 min, about 10,074 words). It mentions 49 people, works and ideas, including Influence, Visibility trumps ability, Napster, EXP Realty, LimeWire.

What this episode is about

Leo Perea, CEO of EXP Realty, discusses his journey in the real estate industry and the innovative strategies transforming traditional brokerage models through technology and community-focused growth. He emphasizes the impact of a virtual-first platform on agent success and the evolving landscape of real estate in a dynamic market.

Key takeaways

  • The real estate bubble burst made Leo Perea a phoenix, reshaping him into an entrepreneurial guru.
  • Success at 20: House hacking before it was cool—Leo's real estate career was born in a frat house.
  • Capitalism's ultimate goal? Frictionless transactions, just ask Apple, Bezos, or Leo's cloud-powered property play.
  • AI will crush real estate friction like a wrecking ball—good thing Leo's tech-savvy and ready.
  • Future SAS interfaces: Text bubbles over buttons—businesses will chat their way to Z from A.

Who speaks in this episode?

What is discussed, and when

  1. – 5:00: Apple Wallet, EXP World Holdings, FHA loan, Leo Perea
  2. – 10:00: Large language model
  3. – 15:00: Service 10, smart contracts, title insurance
  4. – 20:00: Napster, Influence
  5. – 25:00: Bounty, Frontier, Greg Heg, Spirit
  6. – 30:00: 72 Sold, App Store, Rocket, Roy Williams
  7. – 35:00: Visibility trumps ability, Influence, Jared James
  8. – 45:00: Gino Wickman, Progress over perfection
  9. – 50:00: Do, delegate, delete, Getting Things Done, Influence, Leo Pa
  10. – 50:15: Volume trumps everything

Notable quotes from "AI and the Transformation of Business with Leo Pajera"

  • All right, guys. Welcome back to the home service expert. Today is awesome because this happened to be by chance.
    about The Home Service Expert · at
  • My first transaction was to myself at 20 years old. I bought a property with an FHA loan. My dad was my co-signer. I used my commission as my own down payment and rented out…
    about FHA loan · at
  • Billion in revenue about a $2 billion market cap company but NASDAQ you know S&P 600.
    about S&P 600 · at
  • Founded a tech company, I relied solely on engineers to build everything versus with the advent of large language models where you can vibe code even if it's just like the…
    about Large language model · at
  • I'm skeptically I guess I'm cautiously optimistic. I was with the founder of Service 10. He goes, I'm I'm so sad because my kids won't have a purpose like I do to build…
    about Service 10 · at
  • This morning when we were talking about AI, I said, Listen, we're playing with Napster and MySpace. I don't believe Instagram and YouTube have showed up yet. And so what I'm…
    about Napster · at
  • But I'll give you a sample size of one question. In your sphere of influence, Facebook, Facebook and LinkedIn are probably the two most prolific ones for this example.
    about Influence · at
  • It's visibility, right? And the speaker we had at our event yesterday said visibility trumps ability in today's attention world.
    about Visibility trumps ability · at

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

  • Leo Perea — Person · 1 mention · first at
    I've got Leo Perea in town and he's an expert in sales business real estate based out of Miami. You guys might have heard of EXP Realy. He's the CEO and it's one of the fastest growing real.
  • Greg Heg — Person · 1 mention · first at
    Dollar. And those are like the advanced thinking. I love this stuff. Have you ever heard of a guy named Greg Heg? 72 Soul.
  • Roy Williams — Person · 1 mention · first at
    No. His name's Roy Williams. He was the first guy to build the ad for Rolex and it sounded something like imagine yourself and he's got you know you're going to the mission impossible you've.
  • Jared James — Person · 1 mention · first at
    His name is Jared James. He's a good friend of mine.
  • Gino Wickman — Person · 1 mention · first at
    That's really good, man. I really like that. So but you still, Gino Wickman, you familiar with him?
  • Leo Pa — Person · 1 mention · first at
    Social, Instagram, my name, Leo Pa.

Books & papers

  • Influence — Book · 3 mentions · first at
  • The Picture of Dorian Gray — Book · 1 mention · first at
    And by the way, the question asked differently is did you ever do you remember reading the picture of Dorian Gray in high school or college?
  • Getting Things Done — Book · 1 mention · first at
    I'll give you a fun nerdy systems one that fundamentally changed everything in my brain, which is David Allen's Getting Things Done. And it's it's really like a framework of…
  • Bible — Book · 1 mention
  • The Richest Man in Babylon — Book · 1 mention

Companies & orgs

  • Napster — Company · 2 mentions · first at
  • EXP Realty — Company · 2 mentions
  • LimeWire — Company · 2 mentions
  • The Home Service Expert — Company · 1 mention · first at
  • EXP World Holdings — Company · 1 mention · first at
    It's one of the fastest growing real estate brokerages in the world and a core subsidiary of EXP World Holdings, a cloud-based company with market capitalization of around 4 billion.
  • S&P 600 — Company · 1 mention · first at
  • Service 10 — Company · 1 mention · first at
  • Spirit — Company · 1 mention · first at
    Front of the bus or a PJ versus Spirit and Frontier, right?
  • Frontier — Company · 1 mention · first at
    Front of the bus or a PJ versus Spirit and Frontier, right?
  • Rocket — Company · 1 mention · first at
    Four banks, 80% of the market. Number one in the US is Rocket, right? We all know who Rocket is.
  • 72 Sold — Company · 1 mention · first at
    Versus I'm not trying to build a super app. And so, 72 sold has their own mousetrap and they'll capture some market and so will other agents, with ranging business models.
  • Steak 44 — Company · 1 mention · first at
    You go there, feed a family of four for 40 bucks. But if you go to steak 44, you got to wait a week to get in there and it's going to be very, very, very expensive. And you cancel, you still pay the down payment. I'd rather be. But.
  • Acura — Company · 1 mention
  • EXP — Company · 1 mention
  • MapQuest — Company · 1 mention

Products & tech

  • Tesla Model S — Product · 2 mentions
  • Apple Wallet — Product · 1 mention · first at
    Whether you know it's it's my Apple Watch and my Apple phone and my Apple wallet and my AirPods that are in my pocket. It's like four pieces of technology. And it's not that I'm obsessed with what Steve Jobs built as a.
  • Bounty — Product · 1 mention · first at
    Organic and, disintegrate when you're trying to wipe your hands versus Bounty at Walmart. And both are phenomenally multi-billion dollar businesses, right? They serve a different consumer sector. It's a different experience level, right?
  • App Store — Product · 1 mention · first at
    Do as a company is I look at myself as a platform. So, like I want to be the iOS and the app store, right? and let my agents build their own apps, right?
  • iOS — Product · 1 mention
  • n8n — Product · 1 mention
  • Power BI — Product · 1 mention

Concepts & topics

  • Visibility trumps ability — Concept · 3 mentions · first at
  • FHA loan — Concept · 1 mention · first at
  • Large language model — Concept · 1 mention · first at
  • smart contracts — Concept · 1 mention · first at
    Have some tech crypto bro tell me about how everything was going on chain NFTs were going to replace all smart contracts and like again I live in the epicenter of it and like…
  • title insurance — Concept · 1 mention · first at
    Definitively someone would come up to me and be say title insurance and settlements won't exist because everything's going to be a smart contract and again kind of like you…
  • Sherman Act — Concept · 1 mention · first at
    Well, forget that we have the Sherman Act, but by the way, which is 70%.
  • Progress over perfection — Concept · 1 mention · first at
    There's a principle that I talk a lot about. I did a keynote about it yesterday where I said progress over perfection. Progress over destination.
  • Do, delegate, delete — Concept · 1 mention · first at
    And so it's the radical prioritization of do, delegate, delete.
  • Paralysis by analysis — Concept · 1 mention · first at
    Whether that's AI or social, I think there's this paralysis by analysis of I have to get it right. And in this era, I think volume trumps everything. And that's probably true in every era, but it's I'm hyper aware of it in this one.
  • Volume trumps everything — Concept · 1 mention · first at
    There's this paralysis by analysis of I have to get it right. And in this era, I think volume trumps everything. And that's probably true in every era, but it's I'm hyper aware of it in this one.
  • CAC — Concept · 1 mention
  • CTA — Concept · 1 mention
  • EOS — Concept · 1 mention
  • house hacking — Concept · 1 mention
  • LTV — Concept · 1 mention
  • RFPs — Concept · 1 mention

Full transcript with timestamps

All right, guys. Welcome back to the home service expert. Today is awesome because this happened to be by chance. I've got Leo Perea in town and he's an expert in sales business real estate based out of Miami. You guys might have heard of EXP Realy. He's the CEO and uh it's one of the fastest growing real estate brokerages in the world and a core subsidiary of EXP World Holdings, a cloud-based company with market capitalization of around 4 billion. Appointed CEO of April of last year 2024, Leo now leads a company that has transformed the traditional brokerage model through its virtual first platform and innovative approach to agent growth and community. With deep experience as both entrepreneur and industry leader, Leo is uniquely positioned to talk about the future of real estate, the power of technology, and what it takes to thrive in a shifting market.

Thanks for having me, Tommy. I'm excited. And like you said, this this was a happy coincidence.

I really appreciate you being here, brother. You want to just tell us I always like to start with a story about how you made it and what you're uh where you're at today and what you're interested in the future.

Sure. So, I'm I'm um born and raised into real estate. Even though I didn't come from a real estate family, most most people enter the residential real estate space as a second or third career. I I feel lucky enough that I fell into it at 19 years old while I was in college. Um I got my license and sold uh my first transaction was to myself at 20 years old. I bought a property with an FHA loan. My dad was my co-signer. I used my commission as my own down payment and rented out three rooms and house hacked before it was a thing. Um and then that summer I ended up selling my fraternity brothers and any sority girl who take my call 11 homes during my summer vacation and made $60,000.

And um as they say that that was that was that tipping point in my brain where I said this is what I'm going to do with the rest of my life. Um I then went on to have a pretty awesome couple of years. thought I was special and thought I was, you know, God's gift to real estate and realized I had a license during the greatest bubble in the history of the world. uh got my ass handed to me, lost everything, and the financial crisis turned out to be one of those uh very important uh educational processes of my life cuz that's where I I went from being a entrep a soloreneur, a self-employed person to a business owner and I scaled and I learned how to win government contracts and do RFPs and uh became one of the top agents in the world. Um, then I went on to do a lending fund and then I did a tech fund where I ended up raising uh close to $50 million of venture and and private equity and scaled that business to be

80% market share in the United States from a diff distribution standpoint to real estate agents. And um after I exited those businesses, I got a cold call from the founder of EXP. And this is my first job in my 40s that I've ever had. and I lead a publicly traded company and we're we're about four billion in revenue about a $2 billion market cap company but NASDAQ you know S&P 600.

Oh that's great. Where where's the real estate market headed? What are you excited about?

I like I've been a really big advocate for transparency. I think if you have a consumer first strategy and and again this is agnostic of industry

right? You know I think if you do what's absolutely best for the consumer in the end you win. And that's been my philosophy whether I've been in real estate, tech, or finance. Right? I think the goal of capitalism is to remove as much friction as possible so they pick your product and service over everything else. Right? I think human beings go for the path of least resistance, right? Whether you know it's it's my Apple Watch and my Apple phone and my Apple wallet and my AirPods that are in my pocket. It's like four pieces of technology. And it's not that I'm obsessed with what Steve Jobs built as a human being versus the frictionless ecosystem he designed. And right, think about your favorite products and services. That's like the reason Jeff Bezos is one of the richest men in the world is cuz he made it painless for us to get what we want when we want it as soon as possible with the least amount

of friction. So, um, real estate is one of the most frictionful experiences American consumer makes. It is not simple. It is not painless. there's a ton of complexity from title and mortgage and all the other things. So, um I don't, you know, I believe that consumers will still overindex on having a expert advisor help them through a super expensive, highly infrequent uh highly emotional thing that they only do on average three times in their whole life.

Wow. But where um where I think of the future right now, um I think AI is going to fundamentally change everything. And that's not just hyperbole. I I actually founded and scaled a tech company. So, I'm I'm I'm I'm more technical than the average um CEO. That's not that's not a um an engineer. But where I think everything's about to shift is the gatekeeping of technology is not what it used to be. So once upon a time when I founded a tech company, I relied solely on engineers to build everything versus with the advent of large language models where you can vibe code even if it's just like the first wireframe and the layout and I can you know verbalize with context what I want it to look like and then give it to an engineer. That's a game changer.

the speed at which we can do stuff. And I I believe that in the next 3 to 5 years, most B2B SAS products will no longer have the UI experience that that we're used to, right? Most B2B SAS products um are an interface that sits on top of a data layer. And I think what it's going to look like is more like that little talking bubble where you either type into it what you want to know like tell me how many garage doors we have in inventory. You don't actually need to go to a display that has these predetermined visuals like you like how many customers did inbound calls did we get? Um you know who have we not talked to in a while like what supplier like pick your industry and pick your KPIs and you'll be able to contextually talk to it. Um and so I I spend you know I speak at conferences often and most as of late I feel like I I have anxiety. I can't go fast enough. I have anxiety that

everything is moving at a speed that um I haven't felt before. Right. I'm I'm I'm 43 and I've experienced two gigantic tech jumps in my professional career. One was highspeed internet.

Yep. And again, I'm I grew up in the real estate business, but prior to highspeed internet, I actually had to drive into the office physically to look up listings.

Yep. Like Zillow didn't exist, right? It was like this gatekeeping of information. And I had to physically drive somewhere and then print stuff out and give it to you if you wanted to buy a house. And highspeed internet democratized that. And then the the next giant step that changed everything in my industry was mobile, right? I went from having to print maps on Map Quest. Like that's how old I am.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. And and we'd drive around with those like multi-page books that

Yeah, I remember those days. And so um that what both of those technologies did was actually compress time, right? So if it it it used to take me, you know, 3 to 5 days to schedule appointments and, you know, get information to people back and forth, fax stuff, I can do it in minutes now.

Yeah. And then mobile, you know, made it even faster because I didn't have to go back to the office to look stuff up. I could just do it on my phone. I could schedule an appointment. I could get a um instructions on how to show property from my car. And so if something used to take days or weeks, I could now do it in minutes or hours. That's that's the gigantic leap forward that I'm seeing with AI and I and I something I'm hyper aware of is everything's overhyped in the short term and everything's underhyped in the long term. Right? So like I think everyone's it's it's exhausting to hear AI as much as we do. But um I think over the next five or 10 years it'll be more impactful than we ever dreamt. And so it's this balance of staying in curiosity and testing and trying and not getting kind of lost in the hype.

You know, we we spent millions and millions of dollars building probably one of the more advanced data lakes with PowerBI and pulling in from APIs and I just went through 20 hours of advanced AI training and uh learned a lot more like I use chatbt 80 times a day. It knows me. I do complex irr. But now I'm starting to give it way more complex things. And you've heard of N8, N8N. And we're going in and I'm hiring the top minds. I can't pay $100 million to get one guy, but I'm paying the top minds that I could get cuz speed is everything. Speed of implementation.

Who's going to go first? Who's going to fail faster? And my my we're building Chetch Enterprise over the top of all of it. And that's, you know, I know a lot of private equity. I know a lot of these guys doing venture capital. They're looking at this stuff, but lawyers are going to be out of work. you the the I'm so glad 20 years ago I fell into garage doors. I didn't know that it was going to be cuz everyone was going be a developer, go into dentistry d and I'm like man I really like what I do. But now we're essential. I mean during co we were essential. Now everybody I know that's a developer most of my real estate buddies a lot of the people even doing SAS products are like we want to go into HF, we want to go into roofing. we want to do this because I don't think even though Tesla's going to have the robots next year, they're not going to be doing skilled labor anytime soon. But that's

what's scary to me and I'm not considered the smartest guy in the room per se, but when I just heard Elon might be doing a home service fund, um those aren't the type of guys I'm used to going against. So, I got to move quick quick. The one thing I found in our industry that you'll really appreciate is private equity guys can never build this company. They they they don't know they they kind of look down upon blueco collar people. They don't know how to keep the culture. I

I would argue that private equity looks down on operators because they're not. And so they they still private equity doesn't exist with the practitioner who's an operator.

And that's you want I was at this panel and there's five of the top PE guys in the world and they said what we've learned is you got to figure out how to keep the founder in the business and still excited. And I think that they think, well, let you can't cut your way to higher profit margins in IBIDA. And I think that that's what they just said, hey, how hard could it be? You replacing garage doors and HVAC units and mowing lawns. You know, we can hire anybody out the street. If they're not if they're not on time, fire them. And it's like, no, there's a lot more to this that these some of our people that didn't have a mom growing up, you know, some didn't pass 10th grade, but they're really good, faithful, like hardworking, loyal people.

Um, but you're right. I'm very nervous. I'm skeptically I guess I'm cautiously optimistic. I was with the founder of Service 10. He goes, "I'm I'm so sad because my kids won't have a purpose like I do to build something from nothing." Like what do you think's going to happen? I mean, AGI when is this happening? Nobody knows. What's your speculative what happens to society and wanting to grow yourself?

That that's a very, you know, open-ended question that no one actually knows the answer to. So the one thing that I do know um and again I'm I'm a I'm an optimist and I think we have to be to be entrepreneurs like it's not a choice it's a DNA thing. So one is I would go back over 2,000 5,000 years of recorded human history and you know the printing press fundamentally changed society and knowledge was gatekept by scholars and the church and when the first books were printed it it it allowed for literacy at scale right and then the the you know the railroad and the the the engine right there's been these dramatic jumps in productivity and if you actually read headlines from you know the eras of when this happened it was the end

it was the end of the world as we knew it because these jobs were being eliminated so one is I think we're a tribal species and what that means is we crave human interaction so I I think as as certain repetitive jobs go away and when you look at any advancement in technology it's normally that it's some logical process um so I think over time we will over index on human experience. And I was recently about 6 months ago at an event with a bunch of private equity and some of the biggest direct to consumer brands in the world. And it was super interesting because the capital allocators were investing in in real life events from sports teams to arenas to non-replaceable human experiences and then the direct to consumer brands were actually investing in similar um opportunities that had direct to consumer live events. meaning that

it doesn't people are going to want to gather people well and do stuff that machines just won't be able to do

live venues live music live performances what you're having this week exactly exactly and and you know let's talk about the last couple of hype cycles you and I have been a part of I live in Miami that's the epicenter of the crypto hype

oh yeah and five six years ago I couldn't go to anything in Miami and have some tech crypto bro tell me about how everything was going on chain NFTs were going to replace all smart contracts and and like again I live in the epicenter of it and like six years ago it's like oh this is happening definitively someone would come up to me and be say uh title insurance and settlements won't exist because everything's going to be a smart contract and again kind of like you just said just fire them I'm like do you realize that title's kept across 3500 100 disperate municipalities in this country with different rules and states and do you know that that's all like government regulated and like there is no magic button wand anything and so when when when I hear you know we won't have a purpose all like I a I don't see it from a technology standpoint um and two like we designed this stuff and we built it

and I think we'll still crave certain parts of the human experience Um, I have a a habit of not worrying about stuff I can't control.

Well, that's smart. I mean, it is. It's tough. I mean, when you think about AGI, when you think about this code is smarter than all humans combined. And people think it's 10 years. Some people think it won't happen in our lifetime. But I feel still feel like it's the best opportunity I've ever had. 10,000 baby boomers a day retiring. 12% of them own a business. Uh, most of them don't have a next of kin. There's so much opportunity. But it is to me is like I enjoy myself. I go on vacations. I do fun stuff with my fiance. Never been married, no kids. So, haven't started that chapter yet. But, uh, it's a race and it's speed and I'm out learning all the time. That's why I love this podcast cuz I'm learning so much from you. Have you seen all that show about Uber?

Yeah. Is they had to cheat? What do they call it? The gray gray zone or whatever where they used to get around regulations in Portland and some other areas. like you got to break glass to get these things through, but somebody's always going to figure it out. I was watching this investment panel. Some of the smartest people in the world on AI, they said, "I wouldn't invest in what's hot today. You're not probably going to rebuild Chetch GBT, but there's something next coming." And that's what venture capitalists do. They take a 20 shots and hopefully one of them score and those are

Well, the way I verbalized it to someone this morning when we were talking about AI, I said, "Listen, we're playing with Napster and MySpace. I don't believe Instagram and YouTube have showed up yet. And so what I'm encouraging everybody is to stay in curiosity, try taste, right? Like

Oh, I like that. I like that analogy. Like look, MySpace was first and Facebook improved upon two or three things. And like, you know, my kids and folks that are Gen Z have no idea what I'm talking about when I say naps or MySpace

or Lime Wire and and and let's let's just go down to that analogy. Lime wire or Napster failed because they didn't understand copyrights, right? It was simple stuff like and then YouTube basically, right, a distribution of of content came up about and said, "Hey, we're going to only do it with unique stuff that you give us the rights to." And then boom, but Lime Wire and Napster were first before YouTube. And then,

you know, Facebook and Instagram, MySpace was first. So, go back to the la the end of the 1800s with the Guilded Age in the United States. we had 118 railroads within like 30 40 years we had three. Right? So there's there's this like crazy boom in opportunity. Right? I I I I like to say that capitalism I said about the removing friction, but the goal to create opportunities or a lead funnel in any business is to have an outsized return on effort or dollars, right? meaning if I spend a dollar and I can make $5. Whatever a funnel is, whatever customer acquisition channel you go after, um, you do it for as long as possible. And to quote Gary Vaynerchuk, marketers ruin everything, right?

Because if you do it very successfully, every other competitor goes, "Well, Tommy's crushing it with this one strategy." And you will be able to do that for 3 6 12 18 24 months and then everybody else will catch up or or the platform will monetize it differently, right? like um

yeah, you can sell data. That's what I think of Pizza Hut 20 years ago said they make most their money off of data.

So I I heard this this stat uh yesterday that when a lead converts through Chat GPT, it closes at like 600 times better

Google than Google. And the reason intuitively people trust it more intuitively we trust it more because as of right now they haven't put sponsored ads.

Right. Right. But they will. I promise you they will. Why wouldn't they? They haven't figured out how to make money yet. So when when you look at um almost every product, go to market, you know, land and expand, get as much reach as you can, and then you try to figure out the optimization for monetization. But I I'll give you a sample size of one question. In your sphere of influence, Facebook, Facebook and LinkedIn are probably the two most prolific ones for this example. Have you noticed in the last six months friends that you know couldn't string a sentence together are now Shakespeare?

I have noticed that and instant like intuitively right like you can you can you can see the person's name and then all of a sudden you read the first two sentences you you maybe see the mdash or you see the emojis and oh yeah

how quickly do you go you just skip like you don't actually read it. Well the way you do that is right you you teach how to write like you

no hold on hold on I'm going somewhere with that. Okay. Immediately you invalidate the robot necessary.

You're right. Exactly. So right now the reason leads convert so much higher from a chat GPT response is because we still trust it. Like we will build a reaction. So 1999 email open rates was ridiculous. It was like 20 30 40 50% on a cold list. We loved email so much Tom Hanks made a movie about it.

Yeah. No 100%. And do you remember how excited you were when you got a phone call?

Oh man. Like in 2002 or or even the doorbell rang? The doorbell, text message, email, like, you know,

we're over bombarded right now. We're we're we're like elder millennials. Yeah.

Right. Like they said we were the first generation not to see the sidebars in a browser, right? Cuz to the left and top were the ads in Google,

right? So it this is a moment in time. Nothing lasts forever. no, you know, funnel conversion metrics because what happens is if somebody hacks it and figures out how to get a 5 to1 return, that's called arbitrage. Everybody runs towards it, either the platform monetizes at a better clip, right? Facebook ads, YouTube ads, Instagram ads, or everybody does it and you'd get down to like a one to two return, a 1.5 return, and then that's diminish insurance kicking.

Well, yeah. you know, in the garage door industry, you know, I studied 2017. I decided I'm going to go study HVAC because it was a $250 billion market cap. Garage doors was a 10 at the time. And I said, who is who's got all the private jets that I know? They're all HVAC guys. So, I went to every hundred million shop in the country. I learned what financing meant. I learned service agreements. I I really studied arbitrage and Ibida, Iba, Iba. And uh that's so we built in the same framework, but now we're building all these tools like AI dispatch. Like now it could do regression testing. It could actually dispatch for dollars, put Tom Brady in the Super Bowl at the right time. It could understand the best person to run that job. Like if you're an elderly person that was a vet and we can match that up, we know we're going to be more successful. It's really not u not bad things to do. This isn't like

black hat wrong things to do. And I'm trying to stay above board with everything we do. Uh, and it's a race, I think. And, and you're right, a lot of people try to rip off and duplicate, but it's very hard to I always say we're a technology company that does garage doors. The problem I have with most my vendors is it's very hard. If you think about a garage door, how many different variations, permutations, and it just you can get different sizes, different installation, different styles, different window sections, different radius track. So, a lot of it's made on demand and you can't there's no small machine that like can make your gutters.

Like these are massive 25 30 each machine's a $30 million machine. It's got to be warehoused. Somebody might come up with something to keep it a little bit closer like Amazon did. But that's why I like this industry cuz the combinations and everything else. So, it's like how do you get the product quicker, better, faster for your clients? These are all the things I'm thinking about. This is like right up my alley.

I I've always loved industries that have a higher barrier of entry or legal complexity. a higher barrier of entry.

A high barrier of entry. That's that's the problem is anybody can start a garage door company off the streets. You don't there not much licensing.

But maybe for the installers, right, versus the manufacturers versus how much you can vertically integrate,

right? There's not a lot of great manufacturers that can compete. Yeah. What I like what what we're trying to build right now is systems to talk to their systems. Like I want to know what's on hand. Did you have a mess up order? Like then I could call my client, be honest with them, and say, "This was a order that messed up with the manufacturer. I could get this in the ballpark you were thinking cuz they're selling it to me for pennies on the dollar." And those are like the advanced thinking. Uh I love this stuff. Have you ever heard of a guy named Greg Heg? 72 Soul.

Yes. So Greg lives down the street in Paradise Valley. Known him pretty well. He's starting a He's all over the TV. Only here, I think. He used to be

mostly. Yeah. But he's like, you know, Tommy, he's like, the way I'm running this is, uh, I'm not going to take any fees to sell a house. He goes, I own the title companies. Most of the time, they don't have to use my title companies. I also now own, you know, the the pest control companies. When you move in, I got access to the pool company. He's like, I'm playing the long game, but he goes, I'm making it a lot easier. Uh, you know, they sometimes they they'll use my lender. And so, and he's like, even if they don't, he goes, eventually someone's going to do it. What are your thoughts on that?

Yeah. No, I I believe in capitalism. If if you build a better mousetrap, good for you, right? I I I think um especially like specific to our industry, we actually've had multiple forms of doing things, right? There's companies that do it for a flat fee. There's companies that do prefer for a percentage. There's companies that will do it all cart fee.

It's pretty straightforward in business and and this applies to your business. If you are too expensive, you go out of business,

right? If you do it for too cheap and don't have that magical IDA word that neither one of us can pronounce, well,

you go out of business, right? And and there is a happy medium between the product and service you're willing to render a consumer for the product and service they're willing to accept. Right? So, both Walmart and Whole Foods will sell you a head of lettuce or blueberries or paper. And you know, at Whole Foods, it's going to be like organic and, you know, disintegrate when you're trying to wipe your hands versus Bounty at at Walmart. And both are phenomenally multi-billion dollar businesses, right? They serve a different consumer sector. It's a different experience level, right?

Front of the bus or a PJ versus Spirit and Frontier, right? Both get you to where you're going. They service a different customer. And I think the argument of like I'm playing the long game, I'm like for a certain segment of the market. And this is the one thing I love. And it's it's it's it's very an American ethos, right? So, um,

Canada, the top four banks in Canada service 80% of the purchase mortgage business in Canada.

Wow. Four banks, 80% of the market. Number one in the US is Rocket, right? We all know who Rocket is.

Yeah. My cousin works there. They have 8.6% market. Are they out of Detroit? out of Detroit.

Yeah, that's where I'm from. Uh, by the way, remind me if you want a tour of their campus, it's it's Disneyland for entrepreneurs. It's one of the coolest physical campuses.

I haven't been there, but she gives me the Well, I can't even say, but yeah. Yeah. Um, but I will I'll remind you,

but let's US, right? 88.6% is number one in market share. Yeah. We have thousands of lenders and then it goes down from there, right? So, um, no real estate company, no garage door company has 100% market share.

No, it would be a monopoly. Well, forget that we we have the Sherman Act, but by the way, which is 70%.

Yeah. That's why you need a strong competitor. That's why Bill or uh Steve Jobs gave Bill

or Bill Gates gave Steve Jobs the money, right? and and when I don't know if you know the the story of Japanese cars in in the US, but like when Honda was growing so fast, they actually launched Acura as a subbrand to create a competitor.

So, um it's it's it's part of our American ethos as a as a culture. And so, I don't I don't like good let him create a differentiated product. And you know, again, one of the things that we do as a company is I look at myself as a platform. So, like I want to be the iOS and the app store, right? and let my agents build their own apps, right? Versus I'm not trying to build a super app. And so, um, 72 sold has their own mousetrap and they'll capture some market and so will other agents, you know, with ranging business models.

You know, I always talk last week I was in front of my own group, 1500 people, and I said, "Listen, um, McDonald's is right across the street from our office. You go there, feed a family of four for 40 bucks. But if you go to steak 44, you got to wait a week to get in there and it's going to be very, very, very expensive. And you you cancel, you still pay the down payment. I'd rather be. But man, if you go in there, they greet you by your name, they sit down, a manager stops by, you're halfway done with your martini, they reshake it, it's an experience. So, how important is the brand?

Yeah. and and so brand especially um I just listened to something Gary Vaynerchuk that's the second time I'll I'll I'll quote him today um where and then it resonated and hit very personally with me he said when when you talk to skilled salespeople they kind of disregard brand and marketing because they're really good at closing right so it's like I can I generate a lead convert it down the funnel and turn it into business which again applies to everybody versus companies who very successfully have leaned into marketing and brand and then it's more of a pull attraction versus hunting and gathering,

right? And so, you know, the answer is both. But it's, you know, it's that branding experience that differentiates like you you have this little thing on here that just sold for a billion dollars to Coca-Cola. Y

and and it was it was a brand play that appealed to a specific consumer demographic um that made them infinitely more valuable than other commoditized products. Right? So I think a brand differentiates a commodity in a you know typically for an ex for for to make it a premium product.

Have you ever heard of the wizard of ads? No. His name's Roy Williams. He was the first guy to build the ad for Rolex and it sounded something like imagine yourself and he's got you know you're going to the mission impossible you've got a quest you are going up this impossible goal set and he goes through it and he he's done it for me live and he knows it by heart and he goes you've reached the pinnacle you've accomplished Mount Everest Rolex you deserve a roller. And and it's just like that whole brand. So he did every major jewelry store. He's doing a little bit of home service. But what I found is people want to do business with me even though we've got a thousand people, my co-workers that we work with, is they want to know that I'm going to back it up. They want to know that I'm going to make you happy. They want to know that the story instead of being transactional like we could do it for less or we're

slashing all prices or you know, it's these are our values. And now I've realized more than ever I need to be upfront and center. I do all the radio, TV, billboard, and it's not a it's not a u a vanity thing. It's just I wanted to get I'm not going away anytime soon. No one could quit and say, "Hey, I'm taking away all of my clients that that I help build with you." So, do you think you need to be as a CEO more doing Instagram and LinkedIn post and you know, call it Tik Tok X whatever. Uh what is your theory on that?

Yeah. Uh yes, 100%. Right. So um and you know I I joke that I blame Elon and Zuck for this right cuz I felt that before that I I couldn't name too many publicly char publicly traded CEOs right but we've we've moved our attention right and TV killed the radio star right and then Google did it to TV ads and um social is doing it to every other form of paid consumer push media versus consumption media and I and and the the thing that I think is extremely exciting is we are switching from a social graph to an interest graph across every one of those platforms. So when social started exploding 10 years ago and I you know I I was told very much to my face I needed to do that and I ignored it.

Yeah. Uh but the game was create a following and then sell to that audience. uh the algorithms and by the way the reason the algorithms have been able to move to a social an interest graph versus a social graph is because the AI inside of the algorithms is getting much much better at pairing people

right but you can open up a brand new Instagram or Tik Tok account today that which by the way this didn't work 18 months ago where you hit the right product market fit on message and you go viral um and so what to answer your question is where is the attention? That is the most basic construct of lead funnels and conversion and commerce. And I don't care what industry we're in or what century we're in, right? You need like 200 years ago, you needed to be in the town square. Yeah.

Cuz there was there was no direct mail. So if you weren't at the right block, no one saw you, right? And once upon a time, it was the billboard on the highway then the the right Instagram ad. the audience and again I'm in the real estate industry and our my goal is to partner and attract the best agents in you know the world because we operate in 27 countries. So what better ROI as part of my time to speak to the audience um I'm talking to right so you know I've been very focused on social and yesterday in front of the whole group somebody said take out your phone and see you know what is the views on your content over the last 30 days and it's it was at 394,000 right and and at a minimum we post once a day from my Instagram account we post the same content on LinkedIn Facebook X threads. Uh, and we do a lot of I say yes to a lot of this because then we repurpose this same content into shorts

that drive to another, you know, CTA. But think about that. If I open up my Instagram right now, it says in the last 30 days there's been 394,000 views on my content. What would you and I pay for that?

Oh, yeah. Right. Like that's organic. That is Well, and it's hyperargeted. it's to my sphere of influence because the people that like it non-followers it's because the algorithm is showing them are it's being shared quite a bit and so how much longer will you know the platforms let me get away with that level of free viewership I actually don't know right because Meta's got a pretty good track record of putting some pay walls behind it but like why wouldn't I

well you take advantage while you have it but I know a guy that's like smartest guy in the room he's a developer um He controls 800 million queries through Google. Like he figured out kind of knows Google's algorithm better than them. And he goes, "Tim, can you imagine an organic you're going against every major programmer in the world because their job is to get you to pay something. That's how the that's how the platform makes money. So you can make it work, but it's not longived usually." Like that's what's so hard about building a budget is we're so good. It used to matter our domain authority, right? And now I it's crazy but things are changing and so we got to be willing to learn and

and I think it depends as to you didn't ask me the question of like what is the goal?

What is the goal? It in in my role because you asked me specifically as a CEO. It's visibility, right? And and the speaker we had at our event yesterday said visibility trumps ability in today's

attention world. What what was the speaker? His name is Jared James. He's a good friend of mine.

That's awesome. Visibility trumps ability. Right. And I'll ask you this. Is there a chance that there is a better technical garage door installer in a local market than you?

Oh yeah. Yeah. But do they know he exists? No. Right. So visibility trumps ability 100% of the time.

Well, a lot of uh companies that spend there's better products in Silicon Valley than the network effect, but I mean somebody could come up with a better Facebook, but they got the network effect. But you know, the fact is no one knows who they are. Marketing is like essential. If I had to pick one skill that trumps everything, sales and marketing are

Does that Rolex do anything better than this $600 Apple Watch? No. Tells time. This actually tells me text messages and emails and my heart rate, right? Function. This actually does more. But if I had a Philip Petique, you know, right? Like that that tells society something about me and that's why you're paying for brand and status.

I will say that those watches amazingly, not the last two years, but they go up in value, too. So, they kind of hold their value. I bought these two amethyst rocks, massive amethyst.

And my cousin's a geologist. He sourced them through Uruguay. And I said, "How long?" He goes, "It'll take me a year to get these." I said, "All right." Uh I think I paid 70,000 for both of them. Uh he said, "I can sell them each for a hundred." And he goes, "They're only going to go up. Those aren't like rocks you find very often." So everything I look at is like is it going I I have some fun stuff but but rarely I I we I showed Scott the I got kit from Nightrider. There's not a whole lot of those out there. It it's kind of a collector's piece. So I hope it goes up in value. That's a whole different topic. But where do you spend your money? I mean literally like you've probably got enough money where you don't need to work. So, the fun part about being a human is like there's no rule book or rule set that has to happen, right? And and I'm I'm a I'm a husband and a father and my kids are 10

and eight. And the one of the thoughts that I've been really um hyper aware of right now is that um there's seasons to life.

Yeah. Right. In my 20s, all I cared about was awards. Like I wanted to be the number one agent on the planet. And I actually achieved it by the time I was 28 at the largest company in the world. Um I wanted, you know, 30 under 30. I wanted number one in the world on this list and number and like I was actually very highly driven by that. And the craziest thing is I actually I I the dog caught the car. Like I actually did it and it was the most empty and meaningless feeling of my entire life. Um because I didn't feel any different. My EBIDA was not higher. It was actually probably lower than other years where I was optimizing for net net profit.

Um, and so I feel very lucky that I I got my ass handed to me in my 20s, right?

I lost everything and rebuilt it before I had kids. And uh, what it put me is in these really interesting relationships and rooms at a very young age.

And I asked every single older man or woman who had made hundreds of millions of dollars what they would do different. And they were all super clear. like it didn't even take 2 seconds that it was don't screw up time with your family and your loved ones. You can't get it back. And so, um, the other thing they told me is there is an indifference point past a certain number. And I've had friends exit from 20 million to a billion dollars. And by the way, as long as you don't have a car watch or now all

rock habit. Yeah. Rock habit. Um, so you know, we the last two companies my wife and I exited. Um, we already had the house. We have we live in a very nice neighborhood in Coral Gables, Miami. You know, we I have a Model S with everything on it. She has a Model X with everything on it. Our kids go to one of the best schools in Miami. Nothing changed like past this certain indifference point.

What is that point? The reality is it's it's for the lifestyle that you optimize for. So, one of the things that um I can tell you as an entrepreneur, I held resentment to the words lifestyle business or SMB because it felt not big enough. And then I went and did one where I raised a bunch of money and had big numbers involved. But the reality is I think most of us and again this I blame the culture and the glorification of the entrepreneur and the massive eggs and the massive raise. But at the end of the day, it's like how much money do you actually need to live the life you want to experience the things you want to experience. And so um I and and I am eternally grateful for the stuff I can't control. Meaning like my DNA, my IQ, the parents I had like

living in the United States. Exactly. And I actually lived overseas for six or six countries before I was turn turned 15. Okay.

So I have a lot of context to that statement. And so, you know, I don't think we can control certain parts of the DN, but I like I don't need or want for stuff, right? Like I don't I don't have sports cars. I I love spear fishing and the water, but I don't buy a boat because I've done the math and like charting's cheaper. Yeah.

So, that that question I think is like how do you how do you prioritize time and effort? For me, time with my 10 and 8-year-old and my wife, my siblings, my parents, my cousins is actually the most valuable thing on the planet for me. And back to the DNA thing, it's probably because I'm Latino and I was bred to do that. But it's how I prioritize things. So for me, it's experience over things, right? Like we spend 2 to 3 months every summer on the road with my entire family and I run a global company. So we spend time in the south of France and Barcelona and wherever we want all the way to you know the west coast and surfing in Costa Rica

and and again like that is expensive but I don't you know have a Ferrari habit so

I think it's and and and by the way there's no right or wrong. Yeah. like this is like there's no rule set here. And um the one thought I go back to all the time is in two generations no one will have remembered you or I lived.

Oh yeah. So just really enjoy the ride. That's really good, man. I really like that. So but you still, you know, Gino Wickman, you familiar with him?

Mhm. Yeah. Um he he was on a podcast recently and he said, "I sold my EOS system, 87% of it." And he goes, "Tommy, a massive pot of gold. I won't even go into the numbers, but I felt so empty. And a lot of people have that when they they sell their business, they got freedom, they can do whatever they want,

but they kind of lose purpose. There's a great book, a man search for Meaning. I talk about it in every podcast, I think. But they still want to like

like like some people are like, "Man, I retired for a year and I just was like driving myself nuts."

Yeah. So, so A I love his stuff and we actually have a partnership with the US that we we preach in in our in our ecosystem. B is part of the entrepreneurial experience is that it becomes your identity. So, I've exited three times and you know after the first one it was painful and traumatic and then the second one you're like okay now I like

know what to expect. Simple things like hey my email is now leo.com. It's no longer at the business.

Right. Right. cuz that's like that email was with you for 5 10 15 years. Like even just little things of how you log into the bank, you have to change that email cuz that domain no longer belongs to you.

Yeah. Right. And so one is identifying who you are outside of the identity you've built as an entrepreneur.

By the way, I I I spent about six months spear fishing. I got really good at it. I'm a rescue diver. But you know, as as I was on my third spear fishing trip of that week after we sold the last business and I was contemplating buying the spear fishing charter, I was like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa." Like my brain's doing that thing where like I think when you are a builder

Yeah. you that's your thing, right? So look, I I know people who sold their business and buy a ranch and become like really good at that, but then they optimize and love and play and do that. So again, most things you you can't know it without experiencing it, right? So like that famous Jim Carrey quote is to that it's like I wish success and money and fame on everybody so they know how empty and meaningless it is. Right.

Right. Like you don't know what you don't know. And there's a principle that I talk a lot about. I did a keynote about it yesterday where I said progress over perfection. Progress over destination.

Yeah. Um because like there is a body of psychology that says that the only commonality on happiness comes from progress, right? So take take the woodworker who can take a piece of wood and turn it into a chair. Take the steel worker who can take, you know, raw and turn it into a sword, a hammer. Um there's actually a documented amount of happiness in manual labor and bluecollar work of taking something that's raw and turning it into a completed product. And um you know I view myself as highly creative even though my my canvas is business and sales and conversion. Like if we can go from X to Y,

I like that. And it's that iterative process that I enjoy. And so again I I've been pretty fortunate to do it in multiple industries and experience it. Once you zoom out and you understand like demand, CTA CAC LTV IBIDA margin gross net, all that stuff, like to me it's like colors in a pallet and I'm painting. Yeah.

Right. And so like and and I say that because I have an art degree and so I actually did paint and do sculptures in college and then I went into the business side and enjoyed that 10 times more. So, I think it's just finding out what gives you joy and passion in in the season of life. Like, I don't miss my kids jiu-jitsu when I'm in town. Like, I travel very little. And um when I do travel, I concentrate and try to do as much as possible, like fitting this in because we were in town. But I what I care about in this season over anything is making sure I can take my son to jiu-jitsu, my daughter to her singing class and make them breakfast and dinner, right? I we we have people who help, but I choose to.

Yeah. Right. Because I have a and and math drives everything in my brain. Like my daughter's 10 years old. I probably have

I don't know 700. Put her to bed nights. She's like, "Dad, leave me alone. I got it." Like

think about that. And so that's a finite resource that I can't buy more of. I love that, man. Yeah. Well, I was on the stage and I said, "Listen, guys. Um, when I die on my casket, I don't want to say best garage door guy, best entrepreneur, best leader. I wanted to say best dad." And I don't have kids yet.

Well, I I would one up that and said when I take my last breath, I want those people in the room because they care enough to be there and hold my hand.

I love that. I love this, man. I want to talk just a couple quick things. Uh, then we'll get you out of here. um you know a lot of people who who do you look up to a lot in the business world and why cuz a lot of them are frustrated they're just not happy people.

Yeah. No, I think that is a fantastic question and um I've been asked that a lot like who are the two people historic and all that stuff and and honestly the question I always go back to is my dad.

First of all, we are all flawed human beings. Yeah. Right. So do not put anyone on pedestal including me. Right. Like I I I say to my people like, "Oh, you're this and that." Or like, "Look, at the end of the day, uh we're just trying to figure this out as we go along." And and you shared fatherhood as a goal. And it's, by the way, it's like central to my identity and what I love to do most. And I was super clear I wanted to be a dad from the like since I was 6 years old. I was talking about my future wife and kids.

Yeah. When you take that child home, that is the scariest moment of your life cuz you like there's no manual.

There's there's no nothing. Yeah. But the comforting part is 100 billion humans have done it in recorded homo sapien version of the species that we are right now. And so to me is like look up to the folks that you can learn from but don't put anyone on a pedestal. Like when I look at someone I would admire, I want to look at like how are they seen as a father, husband, brother, son. That's way more interesting to me cuz everything else is just a skill or a tacter system in my opinion.

You know, there's a guy you should meet. He's 80 now, 81. Robert Chadini. I don't know if you ever heard of him. Wrote the book Influence. He's a amazing guy, amazing dad, amazing grandpa. Um, is there one book that other than the Bible, The E-Myth, The Richest Man of Babylon? Just going through a few here, but is there a book that's kind of out of the norm that really just changed your life?

Um, yeah, I have a couple. So, again, real estate, right? Like the one that and and and by the way, the the question asked differently is like, did you ever do you remember reading the picture of Dorian Gray in high school or college? It was by um um oh my god I'm forgetting the name of the author but um it's it's a book about a character who reads a book and it fundamentally changes the course of his life.

Um and for me it was Rich Dad Poor Dad by Robert Kiyosaki, right? Super basic real estate book.

A lot of people in real estate said that that business changed their life because

again being millennials like we didn't have the glorification of entrepreneurs growing up. like we were basically told go to college and get a good job and hopefully climb the the the the ladder.

Yeah. The corporate ladder. Yeah. Um but that was the first book that explained leverage of people, time, and money for me.

Y So, you know, kind of almost in that category of like that's too easy. Uh but I'll give you a fun nerdy systems one that fundamentally changed everything in my brain, which is David Allen's Getting Things Done. And it's it's really um like a framework of how the brain works from short-term memory to long-term memory storage and how to create a for for folks who have the schedules we have where I've officially ran out of time, right? I I lead an organization of 83,000 agents in 27 countries with 2,300 staff people. I will never get anything everything done,

right? And so it's the radical prioritization of do, delegate, delete. Yep. and being at peace with stuff not getting done.

I love that man. I always say I got to delegate to elevate. I'm working right now getting ready to start with um oh man let and I always used to listen to him say I can work three shifts in a day and I just always looked at him and I always say I'll delegate you all day like I don't want to be in control like and I want my people to fail fast. I mean failure is not an option. We need to fail. We just fail quicker while they're still loading the gun. We've missed the target 80 times now. We're hitting bullseye every time. But again, going back to my seasons, like when I was 21, I did work like 8:00 in the morning to 10:00 p.m. at night, and that was the right season for that. Now, I I like don't want to and don't care to.

And that's okay. Yeah. Right. Could I be more productive or more successful? Sure. But, you know, I want my kids to be there at the end.

That's so cool. How do people get a hold of you if they want to reach out, Leo?

Um, social, Instagram, my name, Leo Pa. I'll let you close us out, man. I I know we should have talked more about EXP and everything, but I just kind of went with this and just wanted to know more about you. So,

no, absolutely. And and I and that's the beauty of this era, right? Like once upon a time in order to get to know people like we happen to be able to do it in person, but even the ability to be in each other's orbit is because of this visibility trumps ability. So, um I would take tell people to stay in curiosity and taste and play, right? Whether that's AI or social, I think there's this paralysis by analysis of I I have to get it right. And in this era, I think volume trumps everything. And that's probably true in every era, but it's I'm hyper aware of it in this one.

Well, it was a pleasure to have you on. I really appreciate it. This was killer. Thank you so much.

Thank you for having me. All right.

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "AI and the Transformation of Business with Leo Pajera"?

Tommy (Host), Leo Pajera (Guest).

What is "AI and the Transformation of Business with Leo Pajera" about?

Leo Perea, CEO of EXP Realty, discusses his journey in the real estate industry and the innovative strategies transforming traditional brokerage models through technology and community-focused growth. He emphasizes the impact of a virtual-first platform on agent success and the evolving landscape of real estate in a dynamic market.

What is mentioned in this Home Service Expert episode?

49 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Influence, Visibility trumps ability, Napster, EXP Realty, LimeWire, Tesla Model S. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "AI and the Transformation of Business with Leo Pajera"?

The episode runs 50 min; the transcript is about 10,074 words in 146 timestamped sections.

More from Home Service Expert

About this transcript: the episode's spoken words as captioned on YouTube, split into timestamped sections. Reclip.Me locates every person, work and idea in the text, keeps the time it is first named, and quotes the words around it verbatim. Last updated December 18, 2025.