Transcript

DR. ORNA GURALNIK Reframes What to Look For in Successful Relationships | IMO

From Michelle Obama · Episode page · Watch on YouTube

· 1 h 6 min · 11,252 words · 296 timestamped sections

This is the full, timestamped transcript of "DR. ORNA GURALNIK Reframes What to Look For in Successful Relationships | IMO", an episode of Michelle Obama published October 1, 2025 (1 h 6 min, about 11,252 words). It mentions 6 people, works and ideas, including Dr. Ora Geralnik, Coup's Therapy, NYU, American Cancer Society.

What this episode is about

Dr. Orna Guralnik discusses the dynamics of successful relationships, emphasizing the importance of open communication and vulnerability in addressing issues that arise in marriages. By reflecting on personal experiences and societal expectations, she reframes how individuals can better understand and navigate challenges in their romantic partnerships.

Key takeaways

  • Silence in marriage can be louder than arguments; the absence of communication hides deeper issues.
  • Sometimes, a spouse's 'fine' means anything but; honesty is the antidote to marital malaise.
  • Just because it's not erupting doesn't mean it's healthy; navigating emotions often requires more than just smiles.
  • Every family has its dynamics; even crutches can't escape the heavy baggage of unresolved conflict.
  • Running away isn't an option—everyone brings baggage; the key is choosing whose you’re willing to carry.

Who speaks in this episode?

What is discussed, and when

  1. – 20:00: Dr. Ora Geralnik, Coup's Therapy
  2. – 40:00: Acorns, Colagard, American Cancer Society
  3. – 1:06:13: Coup's Therapy

Notable quotes from "DR. ORNA GURALNIK Reframes What to Look For in Successful Relationships | IMO"

  • She, is, the, therapist, on, the, Showtime documentary series Coup's Therapy.
    about Dr. Ora Geralnik · at
  • This, episode, of, IMO, is, brought, to, you, by Progressive Insurance, who help people move forward and live fully. Owning a home can be one of the most powerful ways to build financial security. But.
    about Colagard · at
  • There are an estimated 60 million adults aged 45 plus in America who are not up to date with their colon cancer screening. So, we need to change that by spreading the word about another option.
    about American Cancer Society · at
  • Acorns is a financial wellness app that makes it easy to start saving and investing for your future. You don't need to be rich. Acorns lets you get started with the spare money you've got.
    about Acorns · at

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

  • Dr. Ora Geralnik — Person · Main guest / referenced expert (clinical psychologist & psychoanalyst) · 1 mention · first at
    Serves as the episode’s expert voice on couples therapy, boredom as a symptom of disconnection, vulnerability ('the edge'), and practical ways couples can cultivate meaningful connection.

Companies & orgs

  • NYU — Company · Affiliation · 4 mentions
    Mentioned as the affiliation of Dr. Ora Geralnik, a guest on the podcast.
    Is this is powerful here. Dr. Ora Geralnik is a clinical psychologist and psychoanalyst. She is on the faculty of NYU post-doal program in psychoanalysis and writes and teaches…
  • American Cancer Society — Company · Referenced organization · 1 mention · first at
    Mentioned in the context of colon cancer screening recommendations.

Media & podcasts

  • Coup's Therapy — Media · Referenced media · 2 mentions · first at
    Mentioned as a favorite show by the hosts, discussed in the context of therapy and relationships.
    She, is, the, therapist, on, the, Showtime documentary series Coup's Therapy.

Sponsors

  • Acorns — Product · Sponsor · 5 mentions · first at
    Mentioned as a sponsor for financial wellness, with detailed ad read.
  • Colagard — Product · Sponsor · 2 mentions · first at
    Mentioned as a sponsor for colon cancer screening, with detailed ad read.

Full transcript with timestamps

What are you thinking about? A, penny, for, your, thought., Like, what, are you thinking about?

And, then, do, they, do, you, really, go, there? And, then, do, you, really, say, because, how many times do somebody asks what are you thinking about? And you're like well let me make up a thing cuz I don't want to actually say what I was thinking about right now.

Which, was, like, the, way, you're, chewing makes me want to smack you upside the head.

Which, could, be, that? That, would, be, an, edge, and, that, would, be really interesting. You could like open something up there because you're chewing annoy me so much. Let's discuss.

Right. This, episode, is, brought, to, you, by, Rivian and Progressive Insurance. Well, hi there. How are you?

I'm, terrific., How, are, you? I, like, your, blue. Yeah,, I'm, I'll, wear, blue, more.

You're, looking, good. I, feel, good., I, feel, good., Yeah, that's, good. So today's show is going to be a knockout.

Yeah., Yeah., You, know,, one, of, my, favorite topics and one of my favorite people.

Yes. You, know,, talking, about, marriage,, the challenges of marriage and all that good stuff.

Yeah., You, know,, um,, one, question, is, now that, you know, I'm on my second marriage, people ask me, do we talk about our relationships?

Yeah. And, I, tell, people, all, the, time,, now, we do. Yeah. No, that I mean when you were on your first marriage, you we were very close. We were close with you and your first wife, lived down the street from one another

socialized, did, did, a, whole, lot, together,, but, then you know it was sort of a surprise when it was when it ended.

Yes., And, it, was, a, surprise., And, let, me help the audience understand why it was a surprise. because I was always of the mindset that it was going to work out.

We, were, going, to, figure, it, out., We, go, to counseling. We do this. We do all these things and things would work out.

And, that, if, they, worked, out, and, you, guys knew all the things that were going on I will have forgiven her and then you all would still be mad because I know how you and mom and mom are. So

but, the, thing, is, now, because, all, the those years that you guys were struggling and dealing with stuff, I I'd check in with both of you. How's it going? You'd be great. We're fine. And after that, I was like, don't you're fine means nothing to me.

It, does., It, didn't., I'm, sorry., No., It's like, so I guess that's the long way of saying no, we actually didn't really fully talk about our marriages. given all the stuff that we talked about too and continue to talk about. We never talked about our marriages and

and, and, by, me, not, wanting, to, talk, about mine made me not ask you about yours because then you'd ask me about mine and then I'd have to tell you what's going on. So

and, it, wasn't, good. And, it, wasn't, good., It, wasn't, good., And so, it made me think

about, mom, and, dad,, right?, And, I, I, I, I tell people all the time, I remember mom and dad having one argument in front of us.

One, argument. And, I, don't, know, what, it, was, about,, but I do remember that dad and and we can laugh at this now. You know, for those of you out there didn't know, my dad was was uh disabled and he had crutches and

he, got, mad, at, my, mom, and, he, tried, to, act like he was going to get up and leave. And this would have been like one of those like a 20minute thing for him to leave. You can't just walk out when you got crutches. And so he's getting his c put his cap on and he's hearing these crutches crumbling around clanging around and he and my mom was like

"Frazier,, I, cannot, believe., are, you getting ready to leave? You're just going to leave in the middle of an argument? And I was standing there with my mouth open. Do you remember that?

I, do., And, I, remember, going,, "Dad,, we, we wouldn't let him leave." I mean, I think I was hanging on a leg. We were going to make it really hard for him to walk out the door because it was sort of like really? You're walking out the door?

I, cuz, you're, right., We, didn't, know, what the argument was about, but Yeah. Yeah. He was he called himself, "I'm just going to take a walk around the block." We're like, "No, we we've got you trapped in here."

Yeah., We, were, little., Yeah., Now,, now that you bring it up that, is, how, traumatic, that, was, because it was the one and only

time, that, they, had, a, fight., So,, I, don't remember them even talking about their relationship with each other.

Yeah., I, I, think, mom, probably, shared, more with me as I got older because I you know I I do remember because as I started get as I became a married woman and I I talked to mom I shared some of the frustrations and some of the ups and downs and you know one thing she divulged to me was she said that for a period when we were in school and she was at home because she was a housewife until I went to high school. Um, she said every spring she would wake up there would be a day she'd wake up and think about leaving. Dad, I was like what?

How, come, I, didn't, know? She, never, told, you, that. No,, of, course, not., I, would, have, been.

But, she, used, it, as, an, example, of, like, you know, well, what she would say is like, you think you have problems, you know, you think you can't deal with it but if you leave this one, you're just going to go out in the world and find somebody else. and you you'll have to deal with their issues because her point was everybody has issues. Um

so, when, she, told, you, this, were, you already married? Yes., Yes., This, I, was, older., She, didn't tell me this when I was eight. That would have probably devastated me. I was thinking maybe while I was in college and you were this was after I got married. This was during our conversations. you know, I'd get into the how do you put up with men and let me tell you what Barack did and you know, and she'd always say, you know, no one's perfect. Um, you know, everybody brings their baggage to the table. And she used that example. She said every year it was almost like the she had to renew her faith in her marriage and springtime was that time. It was probably, as I think about it, it's like you're sort of trapped in the winter the dark long winter of Chicago where nobody's going anywhere because it's just too cold

and, then, it, starts, to, warm, up., And, you know, she always had that spring cleaning ritual, too.

She, would, have, gotten, the, house, ready for the new season. And it was probably her ritual of kind of shedding all the stuff from the winter, including thoughts of her husband

cleaning, him, out., cleaning, him, out., But I think she replaced leaving with cleaning. And she said once she just sort of thought it through, she was like, "Well, where, you know, I do I really want to leave or do I or am I looking for something else?"

Yeah. And, that, I, found, that, to, be, a, helpful disclosure. And I think that's an example of the way I think mom and dad um tried to talk to us as openly and honestly about what life was, including marriage.

So, I, think, that, helped, me, not, walk, into my marriage with completely unrealistic expectations that this man that I was going to marry was going to be my all and everything forever and ever. Amen. That's just not, you know, the way it works. And I I am grateful to mom for for being honest. And that's one of the reasons why I try to be honest with the world, with the people who follow me and Barack

to, our, girls,, because you, know,, people, look, at, our, marriage, as the ideal, you know, because in in an Instagram world

you, you, know,, you, see, two, loving, people doing a hard thing in the world, you know, always on stage giving each other a hug after a big speech

and, making, it, look, easy and, making, it, look, easy, right? And, it's, not.

And, and, a, lot, of, young, people, could, look at that and go, I want a marriage like Michelle and Barack

right? And, it's, like,, well,, let, me,, you, know, let me talk about what marriage is, you know, cuz it's even when it looks good even when it's great, it's hard. Um

and, so, I, I, think, it's, important, cuz,, you know, it's very easy to quit on a marriage.

Yeah., Yeah., which,, you, know,, I'm thinking back now and I probably wouldn't have ever gone to a marriage counselor if I hadn't had trouble in my marriage. Like

did, you, guys, go, to, counseling, in, your first marriage? Oh, yeah. See,, I, didn't, even, know, that.

I, know., I, know., See,, because, I'm, not iconic and on social media, you don't Everybody doesn't know my business.

But, after, all, this, time,, I, never, knew that you guys actually gone. But we we tried some counseling and you know counseling only works as well as the people who are giving out the information. Well, I shouldn't say that. We'll have Dr. Ora come on and and tell us uh the real scoop. But, you know, the way I looked at it is I'm going to be completely open. You be completely open and maybe we can work on that.

But, I, didn't, even, know, that, there, was, an industry of, therapy., Therapy

counseling., Yeah., Yeah., That, wasn't anything that our parents' generation. No, way.

I, don't, think, I, knew, a, single, person, who went to individual, let alone couples counseling.

And, the, closest, thing, was,, you, know,, the counselor at school for the kids who had mental issues.

You, know,, you, only, you, only, thought about therapy if you had some kind of mental issue, especially in the black community, right? you people either went to their pastor or they went to their barber shop and talked to the rest of the fellas. And that was the that was the extent of dad giving me some

advice,, right?, We'd, go, to, the, barber shop and listen to stuff and then we'd talk about it in the car.

And, then, as, I, got, older, and, in, college and I would talk about girls, he was still of the mindset, don't settle down.

Mhm. Make, sure, you, wear, protection. Mhm., and, at, a, boy. Yeah. You, know,

did, he, ever, give, you, Did, dad, ever, give you any advice when you first got married?

So,, remember,, Dad, had, died, but, but, he, knew, Janice., He, knew, Janice. He, knew, Janice, and, he, knew,

but, it, was, before, we, were, having, issues. So, at that point, the advice went from the sort of add a boy, protect yourself to

there's, a, lot, of, temptations, out, here and you can possibly feel like you're getting bored in your relationship.

Don't Yeah., Right., Don't, do, that., Don't, do that. That's the deep That, was, the, advice, that, you, get, the, the therapy that would was supposed to carry you through.

Yeah., But, you, know,, you, know,, dad, had his way of talking about things and using humor and using the example of his friends and family who made bad decisions.

Yeah., Well,, there,, you, know,, there, were wonderful examples of what not to do

you, know,, but, there, weren't, a, lot, of, ex there weren't a lot of really guiding principles.

No. Of, what, to, do. And, speaking, of, that,, let's, have, our expert come in. Well, yeah. I guess we should we should get some real help.

I, now, now, this, this, is, an, introduction that I have to read because this is this is this is powerful here. Dr. Ora Geralnik is a clinical psychologist and psychoanalyst. She is on the faculty of NYU post-doal program in psychoanalysis and writes and teaches on the intersection of politics, dissociation and psychoanalysis. She is on the editorial board of psychoanalytic dialogues and studies in gender and sexuality. That's a mouthful right there.

But, you, did, it. She, is, the, therapist, on, the, Showtime documentary series Coup's Therapy.

One, of, my, favorite, shows. One, of, my, sister's, favorite, shows, now. One of Kelly and I's favorite shows because this was one of this was one of those shows that we just didn't watch cuz we still have kids at home and but we went back and watched.

Excellent., And, now, we, are, fans, as, well. Dr. Orno, would you join us? Come join us please.

And, we, have, Nico, here too. How, are, you?, It's, so, good, to, have, you here. Thank you.

It's, so, great, to, meet., Welcome., Welcome, Nico. I've, been, listening, to, your conversation.

It's, like,, let's, get, a, pro, here. No, one's, hugging, me. I, know,, Nico., It's, like, we're, now, we're now we're getting to work. What you're used to.

Well,, welcome., She, did, keep, coming, over when something intense was coming up.

Can, she, feel, it? She, feels, it., Yeah. Wow. Really?, See,, I, was, paying, attention, to my sister. I didn't even notice.

She, kept, coming, over, when, something intense. You know, it's like doing, her, job.

She's, doing, her, job., They're, doing, Well, welcome. Welcome to our our table, our conversation. uh my big brother and one of my favorite people in the world. I admire this woman deeply. I really do. I I love the work that you do and the way that you do it.

But, um, welcome. Thank, you. I, have, so, many, questions. Let's, go. This segment is brought to you by Progressive Insurance, a brand who believes that everyone should have the access and opportunity to own a home. What are some of the first that we were able to accomplish in our family?

What, were, some, of, our, first?, Well,, I, was probably the first first lady in our family. Um, you were the first person to get drafted by the NBA. I sure was. and the first to actually play professionally overseas

right?, Uh, we, were, the, first, in, our family to graduate from Ivy League schools. Um you were the first person in our family to live abroad. Uh

oh,, that's, a, good, one., That's, a, good one. Um we, are, the, first, people, in, our, family, to have our own amazing brother sister podcast.

Yes., And, that, has, been, an, amazing, first for us. That's, been, a, really, fun, first., That's been a really fun first. And and it feels like it's a first that the whole family can celebrate because, you know

uh, everyone, is, giving, us, ideas, and, uh opinions and uh it, has, been, really, fun, spending, time hanging out together and you know we it feels like we haven't been together in a long time and we've just been apart for about a couple of months which was no time. That was nothing in the past.

And, the, thing, about, um, being, the, first is that sometimes it can be a little scary like starting this podcast even though we're having a lot of fun. Now we've never done this before. Um and there was a little trepidation about how's it going to work? Are people going to enjoy it? Um are we going to have enough to say uh week after week? Um

can, we, get, guests? Can, we, get, guests?, Will, anybody, come, and talk to us? Um, so the first come with a lot of fear, um, but a lot of excitement and a lot of reward. Um, so we recommend being the first.

And, for, a, lot, of, folks,, that, first, might be buying a home, something no one in their family has done before. Home ownership is more than just buying a house. It's about creating opportunities. That's where Progressive comes in. through a $7 million commitment to housing initiatives in 2024 and the recent creation of a down payment assistant program called the UP payment. Progressive is helping people attain their first homes, maintain them through life's challenges, and build generational wealth. Home ownership isn't just a milestone. It can be your first step in changing your family's financial future. If you're ready to make your first move, visit progressive.com/openthehouse to find helpful resources and educational tools for every step of the home ownership journey. Progressive Insurance is here to help you open the door.

So, I just I'm trying to I mean, first of all, I told my sister this when I we started watching it, finding people to come on the show

Mhm. and, be, so, open, in, front, of, cameras., I don't know if I could do that. Can you talk about that?

Sure., Yeah., You, know,, when, we, started doing the show, we all had a question of whether people could do this, whether you could really do therapy on camera. You know, the the basic idea of therapy is typically like full confidentiality. Like I never talk about my patients with anyone. It's like

it's, a, very, different, way, of, framing therapy right? So,, um it, was, kind, of, a, wild, jump

to, try, to, do, this. But you know over time what I realized is that you know in a way when people come and talk to a therapist they're always talking to more than just the therapist. They're they're talking to some kind of internal audience that they have like a family member that never listened to them

or, the, world, like, wait, a, minute, there's something that didn't happen right in my life and I need the world to know this and I need I need to tell my story. M

so, when, they, talk, to, a, therapist, in, a way they're always talking to a certain kind of hidden camera anyhow it's not that different.

Wow. You, know, they're, trying, to, tell, their story and get it right. Um, what, led, you, to, couples, therapy?, I mean what's the advantage of working with a couple versus working with an individual or is there an advantage?

Yeah., Um, well, first, of, all, when, people are in therapy they most of what they talk about is their relationships right and what you want to do in individual therapy is you want to get into like the very personal story how a person sees

their, world, how, they, see, the relationship but you're always missing the other side right you're always missing well

what's, another, perspective, on, this people, only, know, what, they, know, about themselves and that's all they can shareactly So, I'm often curious like if I had the spouse in the room, what would they say? And if I had the mother in the room what would she say?

And, that's, what, got, me, kind, of interested in coup's work. So, I actually recruited the person who's my adviser on the show, Virginia.

Oh,, yes., Mhm. Years, ago,, I, hired, her, and, I, said, "Teach me the art of couples therapy."

Oh,, wow., Wow. And, um, and, just, tried, it, out, and, it, was amazing. It was just a really powerful way of working.

Yeah., I, think, you're, you've, done, uh taken huge steps to expose people to what therapy is and to demystify it. And um you know I I think that the way it's done,, the, quality, of, of of, of, the production and the way you approach the work because we've had Barack and I we've done I've done individual therapy. We've done couples therapy. There's just a way to, as I was saying in our earlier conversation, to, you know, bring our marriage uh down to reality for people. Yeah.

You, know,, and, to, let, people, know, that even in the best marriages, getting help, having periods where you need support, you need to think things through is a normal part of making it through. Um, and it's such a it's an amazing thing that you're doing by actually speaking about it. I was listening to your conversation earlier and like like just breaking through all these like

fantasies, and, illusions, that, people, have about marriage and about relationships trying to get like real and and open people up both to their own

inhibitions, and, struggles, and, then, to, be able to talk about it with each other. I mean, it's like

it's, incredible, what, you're, doing, from the place that you are. Yeah., It, can, be, a, little, scary, because you you don't want to jinx your own relationship.

Yeah. Or, or, you, don't, want, to,, you, know,, feel like because you say a little bit that you have to say everything

right? But, I, do, think, that, we, don't, talk, enough with young people agree

about, what, marriage, is,, what, building real relationships are. We spend way more time on the wedding

right? And, the, dress, picking., Yeah., And, the, you know, the the the wish board and the all of that. And I see that even now even as therapy has become more of the norm in our society, I see too many young people who haven't really thought through their why.

They, haven't, asked, real, questions. They're so busy rushing to the ceremony.

Yeah. And, that's, all, we, focus, on, is, the, day. Um, and then they're not prepared for the next year or the next 50 years. Um and that's one of the reasons why I I like talking openly because I think young people give up. They give up too soon.

And, and, Dr., Ora,, why, do, you, think, that is? Is it is it because we didn't have modeling with our parents or is there a fear of actually finding out what your partner thinks of you? Oh, there are many reasons why people don't talk about what's going on.

Um, there's so many fears of addressing. I mean, people love staying at the surface of things.

Um,, they're, afraid, of, themselves,, of what they're going to find out in themselves. They're afraid of what their partner might say to them. They're afraid of the world, what the world will think. There are many ways that people just hide all the time from like their most personal truth and the other person's truth

and, the, way, people, are, raised, and, then we have the extra layer now of social media and like all the disification that happens around that that people don't know how to make contact with their true self.

And, we're, not, even, trying., That's, not like a personal goal. Yeah. We, don't, we're, not, we're, not, raising, uh we're not raised or we're not raising our children to to do that work.

Yeah. To, even, understand, that, that, work, is, a part of being, human., Being, human.

Yeah., Yeah. But, I, think, that's, why, the, show, worked so well and we were surprised by how successful it was. But I think that's what people really need.

Yeah. And, they, know, it, when, they, feel, it., Like when people come into therapy and they can suddenly like, oh, I'm allowed to think about this. I'm allowed to talk about this. I can talk to my partner about this.

It's, such, a, relief., It's, such, a,, oh, this is what life is instead, of, this, like

defensive, way, that, I've, been, living. People, know, it, when, they, when, they, get it. They know they need it. So

well,, we, uh, typically, have, a, question from a caller or a viewer and uh I think now is a great time to get get our question in and answer our questions. So Natalie

you, got, it. Hi,, Michelle, and, Craig., I'm, Rachel., I'm 40 years old and a mom of three. Lately I've been feeling fairly bored in my marriage. It's like every day is kind of a repeat of the last. We wake up, do school, drop off, work, run errands, and then it's the same weekend routine. Even if my husband and I managed to carve out time for a rare date night, it still feels like we're just going through the motions. Last week, for example, we went out to dinner, but it turned into a quick meal where we talked mostly about the kids and then listened to each other's work complaints. It feels like we're roommates, not romantic partners.

Meanwhile, I find myself getting increasingly jealous of this close friend of mine who has two kids and whose relationship seems pretty vibrant and fulfilling. She often shares stories about how attentive her husband is, and I don't mean just emotionally. I know I shouldn't, but I can't help comparing our lives, and I'm realizing it's starting to make me unhappy. I do love my husband and I feel lucky for the life we've built together, but I am craving more depth and excitement in our relationship. I'm willing to put in the work. I just don't know exactly where to start or how to talk with him without him becoming defensive or scaring him.

Do we book a big vacation together? Do we try and write romantic notes to each other? I know that sounds silly, but I'm open. What's the secret to kickstarting a romance with a husband of 14 years? Rachel,

I, think, that's, a, great, question. It's, really, is., It, really, And, there's, so many different parts. So, as the only husband at the table, um

what, do, you, say?, Yeah., Really? I, want, to, help, Rachel, be, able, to, talk productively to her husband about her issues. M

how, do, how, how, can, we, help, Rachel, talk, a little bit more productively about this to the person that she should be feeling like she has her closest relationship with?

Yeah. Oh, my, god,, there's, so, much, in, this question. Yeah. So, much., First, of, all,, I, have, to, say that the the question of boredom boredom in my mind is I mean when patients talk to me about boredom to me it's like a big symptom of first of all a disconnect. a disconnect from some kind of deeper, more real layer of things.

It's, not, I, mean, there's, nothing, to, be, bored, about, ever in life. I mean

especially, if, you, have, a, two, and, a three-year-old or however old Rachel's kids are.

Exactly., I, mean,, just, think, about, like when you go to sleep at night and what our mind creates every night in terms of dreams.

We, are, full, of, interesting, interesting experiences all the time. I mean, look outside at the at nature. I mean, you can just stare at a flower and it's like the world is fascinating, but we're not we we don't think like that as especially in this day and age. I mean that's the first word out of a kid's mouth is I'm bored. And just the way you put it, it's like how could how could something there's nothing to be bored of. I mean

if, you, just, I, mean,, if, you're, a, mother and you're watching your children every moment that you look at them, it's like unbelievable what's happening. Yes.

And, what's, happening, inside, of, you, when you're with your children, all the different emotions, the fears, the

the, memories, that, it, brings, up, for, you. I mean, there's nothing to be bored about

ever. So,, if, you're, bored,, something, is disconnected. So, that's already something for me as a therapist to think about, work with, and is it something within Rachel

to,, you, know,, you, Okay., Mhm., Um,, so, I start with what's going on with each person. Like what are you disconnected from in yourself that first of all you're looking to your husband to fulfill before checking in with yourself.

If, you're, bored, and, you're, looking, at your husband, that's already not exactly the right direction to be looking at.

There's, nothing, to, be, bored., Let's, start from that. If you're bored, something is disconnected. So

so, we, can, deal, with, that, aspect, of things like what are you what's happening inside you that you're bored with

that, you're, are, you, not, giving, yourself enough time to have an inner life are you, running, running running, and, I, mean having three kids and she's 40

so, the, kids, are, young, I, mean, it's, going to be this is a phase of life where

this, is, not, like, fun, and, games, I, mean this is intense like you're at the level of Are you getting any sleep? Is there money around? Like are you you're at the level of the body? It's it's very hard to carve out space to have an inner life during that period. So what are you expecting?

I, mean, this, is, a, period, where, you're giving out a lot. Um how are you dealing with that?

Yeah. Are, you, giving, yourself, the, space, to really have an experience when you're with your kid? Do you have the moment to actually notice the wonder that's in front of you? The wonder that's inside of you? Like can you take 10 minutes in the morning before everyone wakes up and just sit with yourself?

Jot, down, a, few, thoughts,, a, few, feelings, even meditate for a few minutes. Just create an inner space so that you can notice the wonder around you and inside you. Not only the wonder, the intense anxieties, everything. like have an inner life

before, you're, turning, to, your, marriage and your husband to kind of supply you with something.

And, and, don't, mothers, in, particular, feel guilty about doing Yeah. about everything, let alone taking the time out

to, focus, on, an, inner, life., Yeah., How, do you even help um especially a a a new mother dealing with all kinds of guilt to even think differently

right, about, that, investment, in, self? Yeah,, there's, been, quite, a, lot, of, recent more feminist literature that's trying to help women think through that, think through the the intense experience as a woman is going through as a as a mother and a young mother. There's so much there and there's so much I mean talking earlier about like all these like Disney ideas

so, many, ways, in, which, mothers, are prevented from really noticing what they're going through because you're supposed to be this that and the other.

You're, supposed, to, be, perfect, in, this way and perfect in that way and anyway all these different ways contradict each other so there's no way to be perfect and then you got your mother over your shoulder. Um, so to there's there's a lot out there now in terms of feminist writing that helps women think through their experience and honor the complexity of their experience as mothers.

All, of, this, is, like, inner, work, before you even turn to your marriage. Um,

but, then, let's, talk, about the, marriage., the, marriage similar, to, like, the, way, you, can't, you know you can't show up for your kid and say okay I have 10 minutes now

I'm, going, to, be, a, perfect, mother, now, for 10 minutes are you ready for me

and, the, kids, like, who, are, you, I yeah, right so, similarly, for, a, marriage, I, mean, you have to to connect between two people the connection between two people requires a certain amount of um attention ion or space, a certain kind of space. You can't just show up for dinner and just like, okay, we have an hour. Let's have a really meaningful experience and then we're

back, home. So,, what, does, that, mean? Um,, first, of, all,, how, do, people, spend their time?

I, mean,, it's, really, interesting, when, you do like a detailed analysis. I do it with myself every day and fail. But when you do a detailed analysis of how you're spending your time, a lot of it is spent on basically crap

right? Mhm. For, me,, like, my, vice, is, the, news,, but for other people, it might be, I don't know, doom scrolling through Instagram or

Real, Housewives, shopping,, bad, TV, um OCD, like cleaning. Cleaning just to empty your mind.

Oh,, and, our, endless, phones., endless phones. So,, how, are, you, spending, your, time?, Are you are you arranging your life in a way that meaning can emerge or are you basically cutting yourself off from anything that could be meaningful?

And, I, mean,, that's, the, the, problem, we're all stuck in nowadays, especially with these like phones.

Um,, and, then, between, So,, the, couple needs to understand how they're spending their time. What how are they creating conditions where they can have an experience with each other? And by experience because that sounds like that that could sound overwhelming because you say experience and does that mean we have to go skydiving and does it have to look a certain way because again in the ideal world you're walking hand in hand through some magical date you know like date nights become a thing right so the experience feels like it needs to be big and especially as women we think that attention has to look like flowers and prince charming coming in but What what counts as an experience?

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What counts as an experience is when each of you is willing to come a little bit to your edge to the thing that matters to you really

and, speak, from, there. Listen, to, each, other, from, there., Be curious. Say, that, again., That, was, deep.

All, right. It's for each of you to bring yourself to the edge of your experience, to the thing that really matters to you. The place where you tremble a little bit where you're a little not sure about what your mind is going to bring, how you feel about things

the, thing, that, really, matters, to, you, the the thing the place where you tremble.

Yeah. And, to, be, able, to, be, there, with, each other and, ask, your, partner, like, it, could, be about anything. Like you could talk about I don't know I mean I think she talked about like

the, the, boredom, of, talking, about, work every day you, could, talk, to, someone, or, talk, about the kids but everything you talk about

you, can, get, to, your, edge, and, to, that thing that really again made you tremble

like and, speak, from, there, and, listen, from there. Ask your partner like, "Okay, so that thing happened with your boss, but what did you really think or what were you really feeling in that moment? And what fears and hopes did it bring up for you in that moment? And what did it remind you of from when you were, I don't know, 12?

What, did, your, dad, do, in, that, situation?" There's so many places you can go.

Everything., I, mean, Barack, and, I, are, even we're we're in these conversations about what what are the experiences that we have each with each other. Yeah.

You, know, that, that, build, connection between us, right? Because we are very different people with very different habits, very different needs and we're we're we're constantly throughout our marriage trying to bridge that gap. So this is fascinating to me. Um, but a lot of people talk in terms of love language because all of this experience being at the edge sharing this stuff that sounds like, well, your love language is talk you know, and if talk isn't his love language, like he doesn't want to go to the edge of anything, you know, because he just wants you to hold him. That's the experience he wants. Or he wants you to just leave him alone.

That's the experience he wants with his wife. His love language is solitude. Well,, there

that's, interesting,, too., That, could, be interesting, too. You can ask plenty about, that., But,, but, you, know what?, It's true that I rely a lot on language

but, you, can, be, at, the, edge, with, another person without words how, you, it's, a, it's, being, present., It's feeling each other. There's so many ways that people communicate

that, they, send, I, mean, so, much, of, what transpires between people is actually beyond language.

Yeah. I, mean,, you, know,, we're, sitting, here together. There's body language, there's facial expression, there's

the, smell, and, sound, of, things., There's I, mean,, that's, why, Zoom,, for, example,, is so reduced in terms of like a a therapy encounter.

Yeah. There, there, are, many, ways, that, we, can, be on the edge of things with each other that are not only in words. It helps when there's a connection between the experience of the body and the words when when it all kind of works together. But you can listen to music together and like have like a really intense experience with no words.

You, can,, I, don't, know,, watch, an, amazing movie together and you're having a profound experience.

It's, not, only, words., It's, it's, about bringing yourself to a place of vulnerability where you don't know you don't know what your partner's going to say, what they're going to do, and you don't know what's going to come out from within you. And you're

touching, each, other, in, one, way, or another by being on that edge. Of, course,, it, could, be, physically, sexually, there's many ways.

Why, are, we, so, scared, of, that, naturally? Is it just straight up scary? It, is, scary.

It, is., I, mean, when, two, people, are, in, are in the presence of each other in some

naked, form. Yeah. I, don't, only, mean, naked, body, but, naked mentally. It is scary.

Yeah. There's, a, lot, of, risk,, a, lot, of vulnerability. And, I, I, I'll, jump, in, here., You, know, from the time young men are developing

we, have, been, the, ones, who, had, to, ask girls to dance. M. And, you, know, what?, We're, afraid, of

rejection., Yeah. So, then, you, just, keep, adding, that, on until you get to be 60 years old and you're still afraid of rejection cuz I'm listening to you, Dr. Ornet, and it's just fantastic. And Kelly and I, my wife, we still have young kids. So we have a 14-year-old and a 12y old.

But, we, don't, just, talk, about, the, kids. We talk about a lot of different things. And I'm now I'm trying to see how can I get my when am I on the edge and

yeah, maybe, you're, not, on, the, edge and, it's, not, superficial, because, I've never I don't feel like oh I'm I'm too scared to bring up anything you know I'm not scared to bring up anything

although, you, said, you, started, by, talking about rejection right, so, I'm, trying, to, I'm, trying, to, see how I'm preventing myself from bringing from being rejected

stay, out, of, this, from, being, from, being rejected am I not getting to the to the meat of the matter.

You, can, I'm, I, promise, you, you, can, always push yourself further. Yeah,, that's, what, I'm, hearing., It's, you know you're you're like an athlete. You can always go and do more and maybe we're just right at the surface here

because, the, thing, about, because, you're still in kid mode, but Rock and I are empty nesters, right? So the funny thing is it's like we now we don't have the kids. I mean we always have the kids to talk about. Right. right?

Um, but, not, on, a, day-to-day, basis., They live in other another state, another city. They're living their lives. Um and we've noticed how much of our time we spent talking about them, right?

Yeah. So, now, that, we're, empty, nesters,, it's like, well, what are we going to talk about? So we're together all day and we we do this thing where it's like I'll see him and it's like, what you been doing? It's like, "Oh, don't tell me until dinner because we're we got to have something to talk about at dinner." So, if all throughout the course of the day I'm getting caught up on his stuff then it's like we're sitting staring at each other.

Uh,, are, we, all, missing, something, to, talk about? First, of, all,, that's, not, true., That's not true. That's not true.

It's, not, true., You're, wrong., I'm, just getting her back for my discussion. No there there's first of all there's there's I mean this is a little radical what I'm saying but there's a way to be next to another person even in silence that can be very alive

right, like, you, know, people, sit, and meditate next to each other there's a way that you could be together that is very alive

to, me, it's, a, question, of, like, again, are you sitting there from a in a place that you know what matters to you in that moment

and, are, Are, you, curious, about, your partner's edge or where they're at? Like

what, are, you, thinking, about? You, know,, a, penny, for, your, thought, like what are you thinking about?

And, then, do, they, do, you, really, go, there? And, then, do, you, really, say, because, how many times do you somebody asks what are you thinking about? And you're like "Well, let me make up a thing cuz I don't want to actually say what I was thinking about right now."

Which, was, like,, "The, way, you're, chewing makes me want to smack you upside the head." Which could be an edge.

That, would, be, an, edge., And, that, would, be really interesting. You could like open something up there in a big way.

You're, chewing, annoy, me, so, much., Let's discuss. Right. Yeah., I, don't, know, if, I'd, bring, that, up,

but, that's, an, edge., That's, an, example, of an edge. That's, an, example, of, an, edge., And, it actually and symbolically it's a great example because chewing is hearing another person chewing is you're hearing the essence of who they are

their, otherness,, their, bodily, functions. It, is, like, that. It's, like, it's, not, like, that, at, all.

No., No., Because, the, girls, and, I,, you know, misophonia, it's a thing. The chewing. It's

I, didn't, realize, that., That's, good, to know because the girls and I are very irritated with the way Barack chews.

Oh, my, god. Well,, that's, chewing, is, the, essence, like you hear the otherness of a person right? You hear they have a body, they have saliva, they're they're like you it's like

but, why, does, it, annoy, us?, Should, we, does that is that a statement of something deeper?

And, if, it, doesn't, annoy, you,, is, that, a statement of something deeper? No

that's, not, fair. Wrong, again,, Craig, Robinson. That's, not, fair. Sorry., You, got, one, more, strike, and, then you'll have to leave the table.

You, guys, could, be, sitting, here, crunching on cereal. Doesn't bother me. I'm, sure, we, can, find, other, ways, in, which we can dig in there.

Yeah., But, we, digress, though., But, it's it's fascinating that that's a even that edgginess.

Yeah., I, I, like, this,, you, know,, the, that poet Keats that has the idea of like negative capability

like, create, emptying, yourself, in, a, way and really opening yourself up to be curious to another person

not, listening, so, that, you, can, talk but, listening, so, you, can, really, hear another person like what matters to them

and, that's, endless. Yeah., And, that's, an, interesting, thing., I don't want to genderize this. Right. Then there are a lot of people who are are not curious. They're not, you know

o, open., They're, they, have, a, way, of dialogue that is I'm going to relay information to you and then I'm going to move on or I'm going to solve a problem or I'm going to there isn't a curiosity. We aren't taught that. And I wonder whether that's some of what Rachel might be experiencing or might want to consider in her marriage. Um

but, as, a, Yes. I think many people are not taught to look for that in themselves and speak in that way to other people. But you can cultivate that.

Yeah. I, mean, when, that's, what, I, do, as, an analyst. I I sit next to people and I turn my curiosity towards them and I create an environment that invites them to look inside and talk to me.

Yeah. And, you, can, do, that., You, can, do, that with your husband even if he doesn't know how to talk. There was um in the last series that we did there was this wonderful um Chinese American man Rex.

Oh,, I, remember, him. You, remember, Rex? Who, I, don't, think, growing, up, I, don't think anyone ever asked him a question.

That's, right. Ever. Yeah. And, he, had, no, clue, what, was, going, on inside him. No clue. And their conversations in the beginning were like dead ends.

But, you, just, sit, there, for, a, few, minutes and ask him a question and suddenly the whole world would open up and he'd be shocked by what's coming out of his mouth.

Just, give, the, person, a, chance., Ask. Yeah. Ask., Invite. Yeah., Yeah. Okay., I'm, just, jotting, down, some, notes. And and to to Rachel's point of um looking externally and the comparing the

I, mean, I, comparing, I, know, we, haven't become begun to scratch the surface of so many other things but I know she she's in that comparative mode which so many of us are in this day and age.

Instagram., Yeah. Compare, and, despair., M, I, think, if, if, you want to look at other people for something useful rather than compare and despair, you can look at other people and get inspired. Just like you were saying earlier, talk to people in order to learn something.

If, you, have, friends,, a, couple, who, are doing something well, you can learn from them. You can ask them about it and learn from them. If you're just looking at other people in order to feel bad about yourself or to generate envy, it's a complete waste of time. Really like

really, like, an, addiction, to, be, gotten rid of. Yeah, it, it, seems, and, and, maybe, it's, just technology that I don't remember folks trying to be like the Joneses as much as I do today.

I, agree., I, agree., There's, some, I, mean there's something about this the younger generations they live a very different life than ours you know. I don't want to be like one of those like older people that's like oh the younger generations they got it all wrong.

It's, different, the, way, they're, living. Definitely it the the the the world on social media calls on people to perform their lives compare more than we did.

There's, a, there's, a, a, saying, in basketball that my assistant coaches used to always say to me you never know what's going on in the other guy's huddle.

Yeah., And, whenever, I, was, worried, about the other team doing this or having better players than this, he's like "Stop worrying about the other guys huddle. They got they're yelling at each other over there. We can win this game." It's the same thing in relationships.

But, I,, you, know,, I, want, to, turn, back, to Rachel talked about is there something I can do to kickstart our relationship? And

that, sounds, like, that, could, be, good, or bad, but is there a switch? Is there something that she can do? Is there something you can tell her that she can do while she's working on this other stuff?

You, know,, I'm, a, psychoanalyst. So,, I, don't, I, don't, believe, in, like quick fixes and tricks.

Seven, steps, to, feeling, more, connected. I, know., I, don't, have, them. Yeah., Mhm.

But, I, think, what, we're, talking, about, is like this inner orientation both towards like e every minute you can bring yourself to a place where you're taking more risks

and, you, can, ask, your, partner, to, do, that. I actually liked what she said about like writing notes. Writing notes to each other. It doesn't have to be love notes but it

sometimes, when, people, write, they, have, to go deeper inside themselves to generate something. So maybe communicating through writing as a way of in a way announcing to each other we're trying to speak from a more interesting place to each other.

That, could, be, interesting. Um read poetry. Read, poetry, to, each, other., Poetry, is like a very direct line to like

when, when, I, feel, like, I'm, losing something in myself, I I there are certain poets that I turn to and I pull up and

gets, me, right, there. Listen, to, music., I, mean,, things, that that that get you there, that get you to a place where you're alive. I wanted to ask you guys earlier like

what, what, makes, you, feel, alive?, What makes you feel like you're present in, the, life, I, live, which, is, so, abnormal now it's really it's like being outside

you, know, I, mean, we've, I, say, this, a, lot um something that comes with fame that people don't that that they don't appreciate they're not cautious of is the loss of anonymity.

Yeah., Um,, like, it's, hard, for, Barack, and I to just be in the world unobserved.

Yeah. And, as, a, couple,, so, much, of, your interaction just happens because you two are experiencing the world together sitting in a park. Yeah.

And, watching, life, go, by,, you, know,, uh, stopping at a cafe and getting a cup of coffee and then the conversation turns to the conversation next to you, right? We're always the conversation next to the people we're sitting, right? Um so you find yourself not looking out at the world.

Yeah. So, for, me,, aliveness, these, days, comes from those kind of experiences is just

taking, a, walk,, you, know,, breathing, fresh air, um hearing the sound of the ocean and being completely unnoticed and just being able to experience the world in that way. Um, which is I would have never thought that that would be.

And, conversely,, that's, what, we, have, fun doing. Like we can go for a walk and we can experience autumn and the trees turning and and our discussions range from the kids to work to family to politics and um that's how we generate our joy is doing family things. That that reminds me of something else with Rachel and and and the focus on the husband and you you mentioned it earlier that your your spouse can't be everything. I mean, especially at that phase of life

right? You, need, you, need, friends,, you, need family, you need you need to kind of

you, need, more, people, in, your, life, to carry the the intense load of what it means to raise young children. And I I've said this before. We now have this crazy notion that we're supposed to be this little unit of a family. Uh the parents and children toughening it out together. Uh you know, in some kind of isolation when in fact throughout humanity that's not how families were

structured., Absolutely. There, was, an, extended, family., There, was always a big community. There were always others, cousins, aunts, uncles neighbors, friends. And totally agree.

Some, of, what, Rachel, might, be experiencing is what typically happens in young families. They're trying to do it all alone, all by themselves. Um

and, that's, a, piece, of, advice, that, I, give when I'm out and about. What got me through as a young mother was, you know there came a point in that mother the mother father relationship when I felt like my husband had all this free time that he was going to the gym and you know he was still prioritizing his life and I was just stewing about it

and, I, realized, I, can, go, to, the, gym, too right now but I have to organize it make it happen. That was sort of the kickstart to me to stop looking to him for what I needed.

Yeah. And, once, I, started, doing, that,, I, gave, my p self permission to do other things like

go, out, with, my, girlfriends, or, have, my friends over or build a strong community of other mothers. Um

it, made, me, feel, more, alive, less, alone,, less, bored, of, course., But, it, was, almost, like, I, had to give myself permission because you were just you thought that being a parent meant you spent every waking moment with alone with your child.

Yeah. By, yourself. Yeah. And, if, Rachel's, trying, to, follow, that, she's not bored. She's probably mad.

Yeah., Right., Right., She's, probably, very angry. Yeah., Yeah., That, is, a, it's, what, you're describing is a very um common phase that women go through and men are somehow freer from that. They they they somehow know better how to take care of themselves. Well, let's start there.

That's, what, they, focus, on, taking, care, of themselves, which, is, important.

It, is, good., It's, important., You, know,, we criticize it. I think we're, envious, of, Yes., We're, envious, of it. We should learn to emulate it.

Yeah. This, sort, of, sheer, laser, focus, on, one's self. Well,, this, this, is, a, great, time, to, to, to give Rachel two or three tidbits to walk away with. If you had if you had two or three things that we could give Rachel that she could come away with from this episode, what would it be?

Okay., Okay., So,, I'm, actually, going, to start with what you said, Michelle which is like, how about you carve out

some, space, for, yourself where, you, make, sure, you're, alive,, you're not bored.

Could, be, like, 30, minutes, a, day and, figure, out, what, what, brings, you there. What brings you to a place where you feel alive and content in yourself before

you're, talking, to, your, husband,, before you're thinking about your husband? M number one. Number two, when you're spending time with your husband, how about you get you try to bring yourself to a place where you're really present and really curious. Like ask questions.

Oh,, that's, good. Ask, questions, that, will, surprise, you. Yeah,, I, love, that., You, know,, if, I, could redo a lot of things in my early motherhood time in my marriage, it would be to communicate my feelings to a husband that was actually willing to listen.

But, you, have, this, fear, of, like,, well,, I if I'm complaining, if I'm not doing it all, then maybe I'm failing, maybe I look weak. Maybe I don't look like I can handle it. And that's all you want to be as a mother is somebody who

it, appears, to, be, handling, it, all., Yeah. So,, you, don't, want, to, share, those,, you know, vulnerable moments, those moments of doubt, those moments of loneliness because you might be accused of not being a good mother.

Absolutely., And, I, would, add,, as, a husband and a father, if you were to open up and say to me, I'm worried that I'm failing or I'm worried that I'm not doing it right, I would I would I don't have any empirical data, but most husbands would be sympathetic and be helpful.

Yeah. But, the, reason, why, I, think, you, don't, do it is because you're worried about him being negative. And it's

Boy,, I'd, like, to, hope, that, it's unlikely. Yeah. Well, then we can just tell Rachel to have her husband listen to this episode.

Rachel's, husband. And, it, gets, back, to, the, husband., Rachel. Rachel's, husband., The, message, from, from us to you. Listen. Be curious. Be on your edge. And you know, make sure she gets to the gym in the spa, dude.

Yeah. Focus, on, her. Yeah. If, you're, not, doing, that,, Rachel's husband, right?

You, think? Yeah., And, and, and, Rachel's, husband should know that his wife's feeling bored, but she's going to work on it.

Yeah. And, if, you're, feeling, bored,, you'll, have to work on it. Absolutely.

And, go, to, counseling. Get, some That's, another, thing, you, can, do., I, think that that's also a piece of it. It's

carve, out, that, time, right?, It's, it's, okay., I, think,, you know, you may find that in 10 years you may need another checkup. And I'm finding that cuz we're, you know, we're I'm doing therapy now because I'm 60 and at the end I'm an empty neester.

Yeah. I'm, at, a, different, phase, in, my, life., I'm trying to figure out who am I now? You know, now that I can make all all the choices that are make are mine. And now how do I give myself permission? How do I deal with the new level of boredom and the newness? So it never ends. you know you're always figuring out yourself yourself in relationships, and that's what therapy is for. It's to help you see parts of yourself that you can't see on your own. You know, you'd never try to fix the back of your hair without a m a mirror, right?

You, know,, you, can't, see, behind, your back. Uh, and wonderful therap. But you also have to find good one like Orna

and, they're, out, there., And, if, you, can't find Orna, watch couples therapy because the beauty of that show is that you sometimes you see often you see yourself in the couples that you selected.

Um, and, then, you, get, Orna's, therapy. Uh, I, I, highly, recommend, it., It, is, truly one of my favorite shows. It really makes me think deeply about myself and about my relationship. And it could be a good kickstart to couples out there who don't know what couples therapy is, but you know can gain some insights just from watching those amazingly brave people share their stories with all of us.

So, thank, you. Thank, you, for, being, here. This, has, been, terrific. Thanks, so, much. Thank you very much.

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "DR. ORNA GURALNIK Reframes What to Look For in Successful Relationships | IMO"?

Michelle Obama (Host), Craig Robinson (Host), Dr. Orna Guralnik (Guest).

What is "DR. ORNA GURALNIK Reframes What to Look For in Successful Relationships | IMO" about?

Dr. Orna Guralnik discusses the dynamics of successful relationships, emphasizing the importance of open communication and vulnerability in addressing issues that arise in marriages. By reflecting on personal experiences and societal expectations, she reframes how individuals can better understand and navigate challenges in their romantic partnerships.

What is mentioned in this Michelle Obama episode?

6 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Dr. Ora Geralnik, Coup's Therapy, NYU, American Cancer Society. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "DR. ORNA GURALNIK Reframes What to Look For in Successful Relationships | IMO"?

The episode runs 1 h 6 min; the transcript is about 11,252 words in 296 timestamped sections.

More from Michelle Obama

About this transcript: the episode's spoken words as captioned on YouTube, split into timestamped sections. Reclip.Me locates every person, work and idea in the text, keeps the time it is first named, and quotes the words around it verbatim. Last updated January 24, 2026.