Transcript

JONATHAN CAPEHART on Race, Faith, Family, and Becoming Himself | IMO

From Michelle Obama · Episode page · Watch on YouTube

· 1 h 1 min · 9,967 words · 252 timestamped sections

This is the full, timestamped transcript of "JONATHAN CAPEHART on Race, Faith, Family, and Becoming Himself | IMO", an episode of Michelle Obama published January 7, 2026 (1 h 1 min, about 9,967 words). It mentions 9 people, works and ideas, including Matthew Dominic, Jonathan King, Theaflu, Jonathan Kart, St. Margaret.

What is discussed, and when

  1. – 10:00: Jonathan Kart, Jonathan King, Theaflu, Yet Here I Am
  2. – 20:00: Theaflu, St. Margaret
  3. – 30:00: Jonathan King, St. Margaret
  4. – 40:00: Carlton College, Jonathan King, Matthew Brooks
  5. – 50:00: Matthew Dominic, Uncle McKinley, Jonathan King, St. Margaret
  6. – 1:00:00: Matthew Dominic, Jonathan King

Notable quotes from "JONATHAN CAPEHART on Race, Faith, Family, and Becoming Himself | IMO"

  • This, episode, is, brought, to, you, by Theaflu.
    about Theaflu · at
  • Coaching so I probably had lost the game and didn't want to I, don't, know, how, you, can, not, Jonathan Kart. I mean Jonathan Kart is like he's he's a fixture in, so, many, homes., Yeah,, I, know, of, him, of course.
    about Jonathan King · at
  • Mom was a single parent. and she did all that on her own. And I just want you to talk a bit about Margaret, who by the way I would want to have here because Margaret is actually my favorite K-part.
    about St. Margaret · at
  • And where I would where would I go. So speaking of college, I want to delve into the Carlton College because you write about knowing that you were gay since you were 10 years…
    about Carlton College · at
  • That's not how I'm going to treat someone. And especially when I had someone like my uncle McKinley branch who was the complete opposite of, him., I, had, I, had, the…
    about Uncle McKinley · at
  • And, this, is, from, Dominic, from, Washington DC.
    about Matthew Dominic · at

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

  • Matthew Dominic — Person · 10 mentions · first at
  • Jonathan King — Person · 8 mentions · first at
  • Jonathan Kart — Person · 3 mentions · first at
    And didn't want to I, don't, know, how, you, can, not, Jonathan Kart. I mean Jonathan Kart is like he's he's a fixture in, so, many, homes., Yeah,, I, know, of, him, of course but, you, didn't, remember.
  • St. Margaret — Person · 3 mentions · first at
  • Uncle McKinley — Person · 2 mentions · first at
  • Matthew Brooks — Person · 1 mention · first at
    Very nurturing environment, one, but two, it boils down to a person and his name is Matthew Brooks. Okay?

Books & papers

  • Yet Here I Am — Book · 1 mention · first at
    Associate editor at the Washington Post where he was also an opinion writer. His memoir, Yet Here I Am, was published earlier this year and was an instant New York Times bestseller.

Companies & orgs

Full transcript with timestamps

The formal name was Main Street. The colloquial name was White Street. And, so, grand, my, mother, would, make, that right. And I never understood why. I like, "Mom, you just go down there and go." But

you, know,, driving, down, south, in, your, uh brown 450 SL Mercedes which, I, was, like,, "Stop., Stop there, mama Kart

with, your, bins." I, know., With, her, bins. She, was, like, "And, we, going, down, White Street in our bins."

In, our, bins., And, as, I, write, in, the, book, it was like her, it was a slow motion protest at 15 m an hour.

This, episode, is, brought, to, you, by Theaflu. How, are, you? I, I, am, really, well., I, got, a, good, night's sleep last night. And I have I have the beds at the Airbnb to thank for it, too because

Oh,, that's, right., Yeah., You, you've, got So the beds are comfy, comfy where you're staying.

And, you, know,, not, everybody, not everybody has the same mattresses right? Mhm.

But, this, one, is, uh, on, a, platform,, so it's not like a box spring and a mattress. This is a just a mattress on a platform, but it feels like I'm on a regular bed.

Oh,, well, that, there, you, go. Yeah, that, that's, a, good, tip, off. Enough, about, my, night.

Uhhuh., Yeah. Let's, we, we, have, a, guest, here. We, do., But, one, of, the, things, we, said, we we wanted to do

today, because, we, we, you, know, we, want, to officially welcome back Natalie

our, producer who's been who, has, been, on, maternity, leave, and, she is a new mommy of a beautiful baby girl. Remind me of your daughter's name Leona.

And, she's, back., Welcome, back., And, uh, you know we also have and, we, also, want, to, say, thank, you, to Julia who substituted in yourstead and did an excellent job. So Julia thank you so much.

Welcome, back, to, Natalie, and, thank, you, to Julia. You hold it. I know. Do we get both of you now all the time?

Okay., We, we, have, a, friend, of, yours, and, I I I met him many years ago during, the, first, administration, in, the White House

but, I, told, him, I, it, was, so, many, people, I met and I probably it was I was still coaching so I probably had lost the game and didn't want to

I, don't, know, how, you, can, not, Jonathan Kart. I mean Jonathan Kart is like he's he's a fixture

in, so, many, homes., Yeah,, I, know, of, him, of course but, you, didn't, remember meeting him.

And, um, you, know,, Jonathan, is, a, Pulitzer Prizewinning journalist. He's also the co-host of the morning edition of The Weekend. He's an analyst on the PBS NewsHour.

This, man's, got, a, lot, of, jobs. I, know., I, know., Kart, was, previously associate editor at the Washington Post where he was also an opinion writer. His memoir, Yet Here I Am, was published earlier this year and was an instant New York Times bestseller.

Yes,, it, was. It, is, a, really, nice, read. It's, a, beautiful, book. It's, a, beautiful, book, and, I'm, looking forward to talking to him about it. So

without, further, ado,, Jonathan, Kart. Here, he, is. Good, to, see, you., Thank, you, for, having me.

Thanks, for, being, here,, man., you., Great. Nice to see you. Nice, to, see, you, again.

Jonathan., Jonathan,, welcome, to, IMO. Thank, you, very, much., We, did, this.

We, concocted, this, uh, this, visit, because of your best-selling book. We talked about it a bit. I was like, why don't we talk about it on IMO?

Yeah., And, I, was, thrilled, thrilled, that you wanted to have me on and and talk about the book. And I'm looking forward to these de Do you understand how weird this is? I'm the journalist.

Yeah,, I, I I'm, the, one, who, asked, the, questions, and try to find ways to get you to not get off your talking points and now I'm getting it from you guys. This is going to be funny.

I, don't, know., You, say, that, now. But, this, is, what, I, love, about, the, book. It's a beautiful book. It's, you know it it's a a wonderful journey through your life. But I love it because in telling your story, we get to see all of Jonathan Kart. it it gives us a real connection to you as a human being, as a man. Your journey is beautiful and it's beautifully told in this book. So congratulations.

Thank, you., Thank, you, very, much. And, I, it's, it's, a, nice, read., It, really is. And I'm I I didn't I I didn't become a reader until I was an adult. Not I knew how to read, but I didn't

I, know, the, way, you, say, that., I, was, like, "Wo, I missed that part school." And and I I've I've told the story many times that

the, the, first, book, that, got, me, to, be, a reader was Fire Starter by uh Stephen King.

And, so, I, try, to, I, have, this, pattern, of, I have to read two non-fiction books in order to get to read one fiction book.

And, yours,, of, course,, is, a, non-fiction book. So, and it was a nice one. So thanks for doing it, man. Sure. I feel like I now now I feel like I know I mean you don't if you don't know if I mean that book

I, don't, know, what, book, you, read. So, h, tell, us, about, the, process, of, it, and how it it sounds like it was wonderful but I want to hear from you. So what what was it like writing it?

So, during, the, first, Trump, administration I, decided, to, you, know what, this, is, a little intense. I'm gonna get off this merrygoround and all these stories that I had in my head for my summers as a kid, you know, spending them in North Carolina with my maternal grandparents I'm finally going to get them out of my head and onto the screen. And I spent the entire an entire weekend just writing what I started calling the down south chapter. Wow. writing about how the prominent thing is my I went to Catholic school in the north and then would go down south to North Carolina and spend the summers with my Jehovah's Witness grandmother.

That, was, that, that, stood, out, because, I don't think I knew of your connection to Jehovah's Witness faith and I didn't realize that your grandmother uh was such a devout witness. Are they called witnesses? Yeah. Yeah. So you had started you've been going down south since

Yeah., since, I, can't, even, remember, the first time I went down. But you know I went basically every summer until I was 12.

Yeah. And, so, going, down, south, being, in, the heat, the humidity, the mosquitoes, the thunderstorms, the rain hitting the tin roof. Uh, all of that just I mean those memories, the smells of the of the summer never left me. And especially going witnessing with my grandmother.

Was, this, woman,, she, only, had, a, fourth grade education. Um,, she, knew, how, to, read,, she, knew, how to write

and, she, was, such, a, devout, Jehovah's Witness that um, we would go witnessing on these country roads in North Carolina.

That's, a, trip., If, I'm, just, picturing this old lady and this well-dressed little man in the back talk about what you know, talk help us paint that picture for us.

Grandma, or, Sister, Ala, May? Sister, Al. Sister, Alam, and, I, made, for, quite, a, pair. Now, we'll put aside my my fashions for a moment. My grandmother, she liked to dress

and, she, would, get, a, simp simplicity., She would look through that. Was wasn't there a book or something you buttermilk? Uh uh there were there were tons of catalog patterns and

right, so, she, would, flip, through, and, then she would see a pattern and then we'd go into town Muffersboro and go find the pattern and bring it back home and grandma would make her dresses

right, there, on, the, kitchen, table., I could still hear the scissors crunching on the metal tabletop and then she would sew them. She kept behind her little Singer sewing machine.

And, then, on, Sunday,, you, couldn't, tell her nothing. She put just slip that sack dress on over her head, put her faux pearls on, cuff that wig on just right

and, put, her,, you, know,, purse, in, the crook of her arm, Queen Elizabeth style.

Yes. And, you, couldn't, tell, I, Sister, Isa, May kindred not a thing. And so then there's me, you know, little So my family calls me Todd. Everybody in my family calls me Todd. So there I am. Little Todd or Todd.

Todd. And, um, I, see, myself, in, like, khaki, pants. Um, a, little, shirt. Button, down.

Little, button, down. White., What? I, don't, remember., I, mean, I, I, do, remember like a khaki pants and a red like a red polo of some sort. I like to look good. There was because my grandmother, but also my aunt Annie. My aunt Annie Brandt. She was like, "I I like it when you dress up. You look nice." And so it was all about looking good for Aunt Annie, looking good for grandma. And of course, you're going to Kingdom Hall on Sunday. You got to look your your Sunday best. So it stuck.

Uhhuh. So, So, you're, pulling, up, to, somebody's house. I'm sorry. No,, I'm, just, going, to, say

we, didn't, go, down, south, as, often, as, you did. You went every summer. We went like a couple of times, three times maybe in our childhood. Oh

yeah., So, you, all, you, and, grandma, all dressed, up., You, go, go, go go go, down, a country road to witness and you're going to all kinds of folks house. White folks, black folks. Oh, I wasn't sure because one of her uh friends.

Ah,, yes., Miss, Betsy. Miss, Bets, Betsy., Tell, us, about, Miss Betsy because that story was very sweet to me. So, I don't remember how Grandma met Miss Betsy, but Miss Betsy was a true character

true, character,, Jehovah's, Witness,, but her husband didn't know. Um,, her, best, friend, was, my, grandmother. Her husband, who according to Miss Betsy was just this outandout racist, so could never know that one, she was a Jehovah's Witness, and two, she was coorting with black people. And so whenever we would have to go not to Kingdom Hall on Sunday during the daylight, she could make her way, but if they went witnessing or at you know, in the evening or Bible study on Miss Betsy would call.

Mhm. And, the, phone, would, ring, and, we, would, go I'd go get the phone. Hello. And then there would be silence on the other end. And that was like, oh, this is Miss Betsy. It's time to move.

Right., So,, I, would, wait, to, listen, and then she would whisper into the phone like, "I'm on country road, Route 4 by the big tree across from the house on the bin. I'll be in the hiding in the ditch. You just you honk your horn when you get there." Like, "Okay, hang up the phone." I'd run in. Okay, I know where Miss Betsy is. I tell grandma and grandma driving

hour, later., I'm, just, picturing, Miss Betsy in the ditch wondering where is she?

No,, she, knew., She, She, knew., So, we, we pull up in this one instance that comes to mind and you know it's pitch black. The brights are on and grandma beeps the horn and we just sit and we wait because you know what if we were followed, what if her husband's following us? And then out of nowhere, Miss Betsy would pop up out of the darkness. And she's this white woman in her own sack dress

purse, crook, in, the, crook, of, her, arm, Bible in the other hand. The, white, version,

right?, The, white, version, of, grandma., And she would come running you, know,, old, lady, Wall-E, running, to, the back. Miss Betsy would dive into the back seat and get on the floor. And then we would drive away in case

her, husband, was, following, us,, which, he never did. And then she would get up.

Yeah. And, we, would, be, laughing, and, she, was just wet. She was always just

Well,, after, laying, in, the, ditch, and, then running in a sack dress. I mean, I'm like, I bet I bet she was humidity. Like, she would kiss us. You give us hugs and kisses and cheeks all wet. I hate that to this day, but it was so sweet. It was really, really sweet. I mean, it's it's it's a sweet story moving, touching on so many levels, but it's it spoke to the challenges of a deeply still segregated South.

Um,, and, you, you, witnessed, you, grew, up, in that. I mean, like Craig said, our experiences in the South were intermittent,

but, you, going, down, there, every, every summer and and living it and talk about what it felt like to be a a black boy in the segregated South. Um

I, mean,, I, didn't, know, what, it, felt, like until, you know, decades later and particularly when writing this book understanding well wait well what were those summers like? Oh, Se North Carolina is a Jim Crow relic of a southern town.

You, know,, my, mother, I, write, about, how, my mother when driving down south when you're coming down the road, the first right will take you down Main Street. The second right further down will take you down the street where she was born and raised. But my mom always took that first right down Main Street. Main Street,

wide, paved, boulevard,, the, double, yellow line. the the street was lined with these big houses and it the formal name was Main Street. The colloquial name was White Street.

And, so, grand, my, mother, would, make, that right and I never understood why. I like mom you just go down there and go. But you know, driving down south in your um brown 450 SL Mercedes

which, I, was, like,, "Stop, there., Stop there, Mama Kart with your bins." I, know., With, her, bins.

She, was, like,, "And, we, going, down, White Street in our bins." In, our, bins., And, as, I, write, in, the, book, it was like her, it was a slow motion protest at 15 miles an hour. you know the black the black, you know, daughter of Sever is back in town. She's announcing, "I'm here. I don't have to honk my horn. The let the car do the talking

and, I'm, home., I'm, here, with, my, northern address and my education and I'm bringing my kid."

Yeah. And, so,, um,, but, then, you, get, around, the ban in those early years in Sever that street wasn't paved. It was a dirt road. And then and it had no name. And one summer we came back and it was paved, but it was paved in sort of like tar and those pebble rocks. So when the sun was beaten down on the summer, it would bubble up in tar. So my feet would be covered in tar cuz I'm running around. I'm a kid in the summer running around in the street and on the grass and everything. Um, again, no formal name until they named it South Street

but, it, was, is, still, known, to, this, day, Colored Street. Yeah. Wow. We, were, the, first, generation, in, our family that didn't have to pick cotton.

Yeah. And, we, were, sort, of, the, first, generation of sort of quote unquote post civil rights movement um kids. I was born exactly 3 years to the day after the enactment of the 64 Civil Rights Act less than 2 years after the passage of the 65 Voting Rights Act. So

at,, you, know,, five,, six,, seven, years old, I'm the first child, we're the first children in our family to live in day freedom in the United States. And I'm doing it there in this, you know where segregation

is, still, kind, of, still, kind, of, around us. Um,, it, it, is, it, is, among, the, many memories in writing the book where I realize just how much those summers

shaped, my, my, world, view,, my, view, of, this country, my view of myself, Miss Betsy. This episode of IMO is brought to you by Theaflu. Theaflu, makers of fast acting cold and flu relief, believes everyone deserves the right to rest and recover when they're sick, no matter where they live or how much money they make. When I was coaching, if I got sick, I found it hard to choose between taking time for myself to rest and heal and showing up for my family and my team. Luckily, I had the ability to take paid sick time when I really needed it. But not every American has that option. In 2021 Theaflu launched the Rest and Recover Fund, and they've committed more than $1 million to provide micro grants to families and individuals, helping offset the cost of taking a sick day for those that don't have coverage. Everyone should be able to prioritize their health without risking their ability to

put food on the table. That's why Theaflu is committed to keep fighting because rest in recovery is a right, not a privilege. Learn more or help someone apply for the fund at theaflu.com/rightto recover. This episode of IMO is brought to you by Indeed. Typically, your college major is unlikely to be your profession, and that's certainly the way it was for me. So, it's really important to be extremely flexible and open-minded about what you're willing to pursue. Think broadly in your search. That's why it's important to think outside of the box and tap into your skills for your next career move. Indeed, Career Scout can help you land your next role fast leveling up your job search process with personalized recommendations and support. Being open to change helped me explore roles I hadn't imagined, which made my career richer and more fulfilling. Indeed, Career Scout can help you do the same by connecting you

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your mom. I want to talk about your mom too, because um just a lot of things you said in describing uh your time down south. Number one, uh Southern Girl comes back after with an education, um a a beautiful car, successful, but your mom was a single parent. Um and she did all that on her own. And I I just want you to talk a bit about Margaret, who by the way I would want to have here because Margaret is actually my favorite K-part.

You, know,, she, is, going, to, dine, on, out, on dine out on that forever. Well, tell us about uh your mom's story, her journey um and you know, how she pushed through and what was she like as a mother to you, all of that good stuff.

So,, a, few, things., Um, foundational foundational facts. Yes. Um, I, know, you, know, how, to, do, this.

My, mother, my, mother, my, mother, and, father married two years before I was born

right?, Um, they, moved, to, Brooklyn, to, Park Slope and then moved to Newark.

Um, my, my, father, died, when, I, was, 4, months old. He had a blood clot that went from his legs to his lung lungs to his heart. Um I found out from my godfather years later that the doctors told him he needed to have his legs amputated. And so my father apparently said to them "Well, I like to dance." Um, and so you are not taking my legs.

I, was, born, with, two, legs., I'm, gonna, die with two legs. And, my, godfather, told, me, that, from, that moment he decided to live life the way he wanted to live it. And unfortunately that meant he left his pregnant wife.

Um, you know, before I was born. And so when he passed away in 1967 my, no, one, called, my, mother, to, tell, her that he had passed away. Oh, I left out a key point. All when he left, he moved in with the girl with another woman. No one called her to tell her that he had passed away. She would call daily the hospital to check in on him because my mother is is a nurse. It wasn't she's now retired, a nurse. and they said he passed away. And then she told me a guardian angel called came to the came to the apartment in New York and said, "You need to get over to Kart's place now and get his legal papers."

Mhm. Go, and, get, all, of, them., My, mother, said, you know, he always he he always traveled around with an entourage. And so she goes over to the house um with police officers and she said walked in and there were just people sitting around.

Any, of, these, jokers, were, like, call, his wife cuz he didn't divorce her. She, got, the, legal, papers, and, then another person, another guardian angel as she described them

told, her, that, you, know, you're, entitled to veterans benefits for, the, rest, of, your, life., And, it's those two guardian angels who changed the trajectory of our lives.

I, would, also, say, that,, you, know,, Willie Kart changed the trajectory of our lives by not divorcing my mother because as a result, we were able to avail ourselves of those things. So, um, my mom, you know, she worked her butt off double shifts. She um taught me how to iron how to do laundry, how to how to Okay mom even knows this.

She's, not, a, great, cook. Oh, but, but, she, did, teach, me, how, to, boil water to make pasta. Um she taught me things so that way

um as, she, said,, you, don't, want, to, have, to rely on anybody else. You want you have to be able to depend on yourself.

And, you, know,, there's, some, upsides, to that. There also some downsides some downsides to that. But she instilled in me

an, independence um, that, she, knew, I, would, need., She sheltered me as much as she could from the slings and arrows of life particularly when it comes to matters of race. And we left Newark and moved predominantly

white, towns., And, the, first, day, of school, she would say, um, okay, two things. One, anybody calls you the nword, you let me know right away. And two, don't let them put you in vocational education that they're always trying to push us into voc college prep courses like yes, ma'am.

And, did, she, intentionally, move, into, a neighborhood where she felt you would have did she think about education and you know and the fact that she lived in a predominantly white community? I think you said she made choices about where she was going to live to ensure that you got

Oh,, sure., No,, it, wasn't, as, like, today folks like, "Okay, what is the elementary school? What are their scores?" And you know, their placement in within the state. No, mom was like "We got to get out of Newark."

Um,, and, we, got, to, go, someplace, where it's not Newark. So, the first place was North Planefield.

Lovely., Not, ideal., We, only, lasted, two years. And then we went further south to Mammoth County to this town called Hasllett, New Jersey.

And, we, were, only, there, for, 4, years., But to me, that was an incredible lifetime. And you know, another predominantly white school, white town

where, I, just, dove, I, just, dove, in., I, ran for student council. I, became, student, council, vice, president at Beer Street Elementary School and then did the same at Raridan High School. like dove right on in

and, you, felt, accepted., Did, you, have issues of of race? Um, teachers, uh lowering your expectations. Did you have any of those kind of challenges?

When, I, got, to, Raritan, High, School, you, know,, I, was, like, looking, forward, to, you know, going to home room with my fellow nerds and instead my home room was the shop.

Yeah. Yeah., You, know,, sitting, sitting, around this giant wedge table with the what is that? That

what's, that, thing, called, then?, The, vice. The, vice., Yes,, that, vice, thing., Smell the tarpentine and wood and oil and metal and stuff.

Jonathan's, like,, "Where, am, I? This, isn't, Kansas, anymore. Wait, a, khaki., They're, going, to, get dirty."

But, dare, they? But, Jonathan,, I, want, to, go, back, because there I think there are a lot of mothers who are like Margaret. Mhm.

single, mothers, who, are, raising, black kids. And somehow she gave you the confidence to walk into these spaces

and, be, okay,, fit, in,, not, feel intimidated. Mhm. How, did, she, do, that? That's, a, that, is, a, great, question., Um,, I mean, I think it's a combination of her parenting, but then also just sort of the way I was.

I, took, it, upon, myself, to, be, like,, "Hi, I'm here. Let's let's be friends." Also you're an only child.

You, You, want, to, go, make, friends., So,, it was just perfect. My mother I'll never forget she, again, her admonition was, "If anyone drops sandbomb, you let me know." Well, it happened one day in HLlett right outside our apartment

and, um, it, was, a, kid, who, was, not, part, of our crew, but he dropped it and I ran in screaming to my mother.

IT, HAPPENED., HE, SAID, IT., He, said, it. Mom, he comes running out. Halfway, wanted, to, see, what, would, happen. Right. Right. So, mom comes down and she she breaks it up and says, "My little friend's home."

And, then, she, says,, "You, know,, Todd,, come here. We have to talk. Sit down on the sofa." And and Skip, my next door neighbor was also my very best friend. And she says, "Now listen, you and Skip right now, you're equals. You're right here. that as you get older

and, you, move, through, life,, Skip, is, going to climb higher and, he's, going, to, climb, higher, because he's white.

I, I, was, screaming, at, the, tops, tops, of, my lungs. How, can, you, say, that?, That's, not, true. You're lying. Why are you doing this? I really like She tore my heart out

this, conversation. Tears., I, I, screamed, myself, horse., And, I remember just the look on my mother's face in hindsight was one of um sorrow.

Um yeah, sorrow is the way I would put it because just think about it. She has had to have this. She knew this conversation was coming.

Mhm. She, probably, knowing, me,, she, knew, what my reaction would be. Yeah. And, you, can, steal, yourself, against, that and prepare yourself for that as much as you can. But when you see your child respond in that way, how could that not be heartbreaking?

But, also heartbreaking because you know at some point that same child is going to come back to you decades later and say, "You were right.

I, was, naive.", In, a, lot, of, ways,, I, still am that naive little boy. But it was that naive that gave me the blinders

to, plow, ahead,, to, walk, into, rooms, where people would look and like, who's this black kid?

Who, does, he, think, he, is? And, also, you, know,, back, to, my, mother,, my, mother always made a point of ensuring that you know, education was front and center.

We, would, go, out, to, the, mall, and, she would say, "Don't even think about going into, Toys, R Us,, KB, Toys., Not, going, not buying you not buying you a damn thing. But

we, go, into, Barnes, &, Noble, cuz, mom, would always go into the bookstore. You I'll spend whatever whatever you want on any books. She said you are going to college and if you are 18 and not in college you are not living here cuz I'm not taking care of a grown man.

So, I, was, always, going, to, college., It, was all it was just a matter of getting in and where I would where would I go. So speaking of college, I want to delve into the the Carlton College because you write about knowing that you were gay since you were 10 years old, but you did not feel comfortable until you got to Carlton. Can you talk about that because I'm just fascinated by that because I'm a Midwesterner and I think people in the Midwest are nice. What was it about Carlton that made you feel comfortable enough to sort of be yourself?

Well,, two, reasons., One,, Carlton, is, a very nurturing environment, one, but two, it boils down to a person and his name is Matthew Brooks. Okay?

And, he, was, a, year, behind, behind, me, in college. And we met my sophomore year his freshman year, and it in good Hugh Hall. And he was gay.

He, didn't, tell, you, he, was, gay., You, could just look, he's gay. He, didn't, run, away, from, it., And, in, fact, he took over. took over. He, you know became part of the leadership of the gay group on campus.

Okay. Moved, it, from, the, basement, of, the, chapel to the second floor of the student union

and, um, just, symbolically, bringing, it, out of the shadows, putting it someplace where you know, yeah, people might see you, but guess what? You're not hiding. This is not something to be ashamed of. And so, you know, coming out at Carlton was easy. I mean, relative relatively easy.

And, what, was, going, on, with, you internally in this process? I mean, you know, you're you're having this awakening at Carlton on so many different levels. Um, but you're doing it away from home. And there was the Jonathan at Carlton, but then there was this whole Todd back home at home. And how did how did you feel as you were coming into your own? What did that what did that do to you? Did you was it frightening? Did you worry about, you know, what this would mean? Um

talk. It, never, I, never, feared, that, my, my mother would disown me. Yeah. um that my family would kick me out and and you know horrible things.

Why, did, you, know, that?, For, sure. I, just, did. I, just, did., And, also, I'm, of, the, even then I'm of the mind that um you're going to kick me out of the family because this is who I am. Okay. Well bye bye. Exactly. Bye.

Um so when I was at Carlton, sure you know you're dealing with these things. just struggling like who am I? Is this me? What's going on? How will my friends react? And then but there's a liberation there. But then you go home

and, now, you're, under, the, roof, of, your mom and me at the time, my my stepfather. But um

but, you, get, home, and, now, you've, have, to go back into the closet. Yeah., Uh,, and, so, finally, when, I, came, out to my mother, it was, you know, it was a relief.

Was, she, was, it, a, surprise, to, her?, Was did she was it sort of like I was just waiting for you to tell me?

It's, a, yes, and, no., All, moms, know., You know, I maneuvered I maneuvered the conversation so that she would ask me

cuz, so, many, times, I, came, up, to, the, line of saying, "Mom, I'm gay." And, and, chickened, out., So,, I'm, back, from I'm back from Carlton. I graduated and stayed a year to work as assistant to the president of the college.

Back, home, in, my, childhood, room, in, Hlet, which suddenly feels a whole lot smaller now. Rights. I'm sitting on the futon

and, my, mom,, she's, she's, mad, because, I corrected her on some of her language

about, college,, right?, and, she, said, "Ever since you came back from college you've you've become so so liberal." It's

like,, "Ooh,, slap, me, in, the, face.", I, was like, "Dear you." Uh, and I said, "Well what are you talking about?" And so we go back and forth and I said, you know I just And somehow made the way to, you know, gays and lesbians. They're always talking about, you know, wanting to be accepted and blah blah blah. Well they're doctors and lawyers and journalists and all these things. You are part of the mainstream, blah blah blah. And my mother standing at my door

she, she's, like, this,, well,, are, you, gay? And right then, I'm sitting on my futon feel like this beam of light, like I'm in my own oneman show.

Yeah., And, it, was, a, moment, of, truth., And I said, "Yes." The first thing she said first she goes, "Why?" And I said, "I don't know."

And, then she, says,, "Why?", Oh,, that's, sweet. And, then, I, said,, "It's, not, your, fault." I said, "It's not your fault. It's

it's, just, me., It's, just, who, I, am.", And then the next thing she said to me was "Don't tell anybody.

You, don't, want, to, you, don't, want, to, ruin your career." And, I, looked, at, her, and, I, said,

"Too, late., I'm, not, going, to, go, out, and tell, you know, if someone asks me, I'm not going to lie

right? You, know,, and, also, besides,, have, you seen I, got, a, big, there's, a, there's, a, there's a, gay, bar, in, I, don't know, if, it's, still there in Minneapolis called the Gay9s. And it has a big neon sign. It says gay '9s. And then it has like these rainbows that come down in neon lights like this. And I said, I've got this neon sign over my head. K9 K9. So I mean if you got your eyes open

you, know,, you, already, know., So,, but, I'm not I'm not going to lie. And, you, know,, this, was, a, part, of, the tension between my my mother and me.

She's from, the, older, generation, where, you don't talk about these things, you don't put yourself out there like that, you don't make risks like this. And I'm from the new generation, the post civil rights generation. I'm still that that kid. I'm free. And the world is the world is changing while it's not changing as much or as fast as I think it is or that I hope that it is.

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View important disclosures at acorns.com/imo. Now Margaret was your protector. I mean in so many at so many stages of your life she was you she was being honest with, you, pro protecting, you, from, the truth preparing you making sure that you she was taken care of. And the reason why I want to talk about her her second marriage your stepfather became one of the voices that could have made you think that you weren't worthy. He was someone, you know, we can learn lots of lessons

from, people. Yes. You, know,, good, people, and, bad, people. Good lessons and bad lessons. And I learned from him

what, not, to, do. How, not, to, be Yeah. Uh, how, not, to, treat, people. Yeah.

And, so,, um,, if, he, did, it, or, said, it, or, I knew, you know, this is not this is not right. This isn't kind. this isn't how you, should, treat, someone, or, at least that's not how I'm going to treat someone. And especially when I had someone like my uncle McKinley branch who was the complete opposite

of, him., I, had, I, had, the, counterbalance and, he, had, been, in, my, uncle, McKinley, had been in my life since birth

right? My, favorite, aunt, and, uncle,, Annie, and McKinley. And from him I learned what it meant to be, you know, a good dad, a good person, a good man.

Um,, he, was, so, caring, and, loving, of, his of his wife and his son of, the, family.

Yeah. At, large., I, mean,, Annie, McKinley,, they were they were like William and Kate in our family. They came that they came back.

And, you, spent, time, with, them,, too. A, lot, of, time. When, did, you, come, out, to, them?

Oh., and, how I, was, going, to, bring, my, first, long-term partner down south.

Mhm. Um, for, Thanksgiving,, grandma, was, still alive, but, my, and, my, grandmother, said,, "Yes, come on down. I want to

and, she, knew, she Yeah., Wonderful., Oh,, yeah., I, I, want, to, I want to meet him." And then I got a phone call from my grandmother about a week before Thanksgiving or two weeks saying "Um um I can't have that in my house." Oh

and, I, said,, "Excuse, me., Um,, you, know,, I was talking to so and so and and I can't I just can't have that in my house." And I said, "Are you talking about Joseeppe and I can't come down?" And she said "No." And so I was heartbroken

and, grandma,, we, were, close. Yeah. Super, close., I, didn't, talk, to, her, for, a good 2 years

after, that., And, it, was, Uncle, McKinley who said to me, he called up and he said, um, something like, I heard what happened and I want you to know, Annie and I want you to know that we love you and, um, you know, you are always part of the family and

you, know,, and, and, Jeppe, and, it, was, all just it was loving and affirming and he didn't have to do that.

Yes. But he did. And, you, know,, an, Africanamean, man picking, up, the, phone

and, calling, to, tell, me, that. Yeah. Told, me, everything, that, I, needed, to know. Um, well, one, I already knew this about him

but, the, fact, that, he, called, me, um, just sort of showed that this is a guy who pays attention

and, knew, that, I, would, be, hurt, by, this. Yeah., he, knew, you and, called, and, wanted, to, make, sure, that I knew that, you know, don't

don't, get, it, twisted like, we, are, here, for, you., We, we, love you. And then I go and talk to grandma grandma and I finally talk after a couple years of not talking.

Come, to, find, out, she, was, fine. It was my aunt Darthy that's always dot, dot., I, died ear. You don't want none of that down here. She's like, "Maybe I don't."

Right. But, it, was, good, that, you, found, out, your your grandmother's intent. Oh, yeah.

You, know,, where, where, her, heart, was., I mean, I'm sure, you know, you you can't win them all and and people will be who they are. But I just sense in you um you know just an internal security that isn't always there in in young people as they are dealing with their sexuality. Um and you've continued to hold on to that. It's it's a reasonable man approach to things.

Yeah., and, particularly, a, young particularly a young black man because I you know we I'm a little bit older than you but in black families being gay is tough cuz we're tough on gay folks

and, your, level, of, sec, security, in yourself young people should look look at that and and our our mom always said you know just be yourself never be afraid to be yourself people will like you or they won't like you but your but all the people who care about you will it won't matter.

Mhm. They're, going, to, like, you, no matter what. So as, you, get, older,, you, you, soon, realize what you don't like me.

Yeah. Great. Yeah. One, less, I, don't, care., One, less, person to deal with. Seriously.

Yeah., That's, a, good, uh, seg, time, to, move into our uh our our listener question.

Um, thank, you, Jonathan., Thank, you, for that. Yeah. Um yeah,, we're, not, done, yet., Oh,, okay., I'll settle back.

Yeah., and, Natalie, will, read, it, for, us. And, this, is, from, Dominic, from, Washington DC.

I'm, writing, as, someone, who, is, hurting and feeling deeply frustrated. As the only openly gay man in my family, I often feel isolated, especially when spending time with my brothers. One is a professional athlete, and our social outings usually revolve around straight bars or environments where I feel like I can't fully be myself. Recently, I invited them to join me at a gay bar for the first time after going to multiple straight bars, and they wouldn't even come inside. They stood outside and waited. I ended up crying, feeling rejected and unseen later in the night.

Am I wrong to feel frustrated? How do I keep showing up for my family who don't always show up for me? Dominic in Washington DC.

Wow, Dominic,, I've, I, have, so, many, reactions. So many so many emotions. One, I wonder how many like where does Dominic fall

in, in, among, the, among, the, siblings?, Is he older? Is he younger? Is he in the middle? Is like is is he the Jam Brady of of the family? Mhm.

Um,, two,, and, this, gets, back, to, something that I said earlier um, uh, about family and maybe this is because I'm an only child and an only child of, of a widow who taught me to be self-reliant.

Yeah. And, it's,, you, know,, being, taught self-reliance to the point where it is not hard for me to even say to family members, um, mm- you're not going to treat me that way. Mhm.

Uh, this, is, who, I, am., This, is, what, I, am on a whole range of issues. And if you don't like it, well, you will not have the pleasure of my of my company. And I wonder Dominic

at, a, certain, point,, you, are, going, to have to stand up for yourself, family or no family. Sometimes I think family uses the family tie

to, keep, you, to, keep, you, in, place. Um,, and, sometimes, you, know, what?, If family's not treating you right in the same way that friends aren't or strangers aren't, a certain point family needs to learn who you are. And so those brothers of yours I don't know how close the relationship is. It must be close if they're at least going to come and to a gay bar and stand outside. I don't know what that's about.

Right., Right. But, um, if, they, don't, want, to,, you, know, see you you, know,, the, full, you, by, coming, inside the gay bar

but, at, a, certain, point, you're, just, going, to, have, to, like, who where is your your chosen family? M

at, a, certain, point, the, real, family, has to give way to the chosen family because as you get older family ties can be corrosive

toxic, not right. Yeah. Uh, and, sometimes, you, it's, difficult,, but you're going to have to say, you know what, you're not treating me right.

Um, I, treat, you, with, all, the, love, and respect because you are my brothers. You are my family. But if you are not going to give as much as I give, well, I'm going to have to go and take care of me what makes me happy. Um, and if that means we don't spend as much time together because I'm with my chosen family, where I am seen

where, I, am, respected,, in, the, end,, that's what this is about. Family or no family. Are you seen? Are you respected? Do people do people really care about you? Mhm.

And, that's, what, you, you, should, feel you should feel shouldn't feel guilty in demanding that

certainly, of, family. Definitely, of, family. Um do, you, think, Dominic's, potentially afraid of losing that connection because again you were an only child. Um the connection was was different. Um, what do you say to, you know, the the kids out there who are, you know

do, have, they, feel, like,, well,, this,, you know, yes, I have a chosen family, but I don't want to lose this relationship to my brothers.

No., And, I, and, I, and, I, I, understand, that and recognize that as an only child, I don't know

what, it's, like, to, have, brothers, and sisters with all the teasing and the joshing and the talking over each other. And yeah, it gets sometimes.

Yeah. Yes,, it, does. But you know in the end I think what I'm trying to get to is Dominic when you know who you are when you are just firm in your belief like this is who I am then everything else should flow from that

and, that, should, that, should, dictate, and determine how you relate to your brothers how you relate to your to the rest of the family. I'm not saying, "Oh just give up on them. Dump them, you know, tell them bump you. I don't ever want to talk to you again." That's not what I'm saying. In the end, what I'm saying is, Dominic

learn, who, you, are. And, then, once, you, know, who, you, are,, and by that I mean

what, do, you, like?, What, don't, you, like? What will you put up with? what you won't put up with just as a human being from people, regular everyday people

but, also, from, family. Yeah. And, just, because, they're, family,, that does not give them a pass to not treat you with respect or the way you want to be treated.

And, so, whether, you, are, an, only, child, or you are the middle of five or the oldest of five or the youngest of five or however many, as long as you know who you are

then, you, will, know., Yeah. How, to, navigate, this, and, never, never stray from that. You'll you will always be

safe, and, secure, when, you, know, exactly who you are. How, old, did, Dom domin? Oh, yeah. He didn't say. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and that's

young, like, in, his, maybe, in, his, 20s. Still, not, self, assured, yet. Right., Right.

Right., But,, you, know,, life, has, a, way, of doing it, right? It's all about boundaries

you, know., Um,, and, it, takes, a, while, to learn uh, what, your, boundaries, are, and, then learn how to protect them.

Uh,, and, that, that, takes, some, practice. And if Dominic, if you are young and you're just learning it, that's what you know,, you're, you're, pl, you're you're going to have to figure that out on it's it's for so many levels of your life cuz if you're not able to do it with your your brothers, you're probably not doing it on the job. You may not be doing it with your chosen family and friends.

Um, and, that's, that's, work, that, you, know some point you can't avoid that right., Um,

there's, sacrifice. There's, sacrifice, in, when, you, set boundaries, you then learn

who, your, who, your, friends, are and, really, sometimes, who, your, family, who your family is

and, with, that, sacrifice., So,, you, have, to be comfortable in the sacrifice. I know

because, of, the, boundaries, I've, drawn, and the things that I won't do um, that, I've, probably, limited opportunities for myself. And you know what? I am just fine with that. just fine with it. You have to be just fine

with, um, the, known, sacrifices, that, come with setting those boundaries. And on the other end of that, those boundary settings, there's room for new better, more. Um uh because if you free yourself up from the things that don't serve you and bind you down, you'd be surprised, Dominic, that there's room for something really special in there. I mean, you talk uh in your book Jonathan, about your chosen family, this beautiful New York, you know, life that you've built for yourself. Um and you know having that attitude, you know, um led you to what felt, as you described it, this amazing community of support full of diverse people who accepted you and the dinners that you all would have together, the travel, the what that all did to expose you. you you know you you developed a love for other countries and because you created some boundaries that opened up opportunities to bring other people into your world.

Mhm., And, also, with, this, New, York, family as I read I met these people through a friend who said come to this party and then he didn't come to the party but I walked into this room that felt like just a giant hug because in the room

were, the, nerds, other, other, black, nerds. They're not going to like that I call them that. But these were

they're, special, right?, Well,, these, these, were, these, were African-Amean um mostly not all but young professionals

to, whom, I, didn't, have, to, explain anything. They, knew, they, understood where, I, was, coming, from., Um

similar, similar, backgrounds,, you, know, we all watched Old Train Saturday morning. We all knew the music and the songs and we bonded over that from disperate parts of the country. And here we are in New York, young black professionals and we have this common language

and, we, have, this, com, these, common, common aspirations. We came to the city to do stuff

to, make, names, for, ourselves, to, just forge forge a life on, our, own., And, when, you, realize, that you especially for a for an only child of a widow who had this you know destination with no road map doing all this stuff on my own and I walk into this room and I'm surrounded by people who are all doing the same thing

generally, speaking, but, come, from different backgrounds and differentized families and we all have this common cultural ancestry. I mean, yeah, just the shoulders come down. I mean, that's why Martha's Vineyard is such a

special, such, a, special, place., That, is a, place, where, shoulders, come, down.

Come, down., That, is, my, New, York, that, this family was formed in the mid '9s in New York.

And, then,, you, know,, come, to, Martha's Vineyard in, you know, my tender age you know, late early 50s. And again it's that place where the shoulders come down. And I am with I am with friends who I know from outside the vineyard but we're there and we

don't, have, to, explain, a, lot. Yeah. If, anything, and, sometimes, we, just, we, need

to, have, those, those, places. And, I, would, encourage, Dominic, to, focus his energy on building that that place you you call it and the chosen family. Mhm.

Um,, and, it's, not, to, replace, the, current family, but we all have a cho cho chosen families. I mean, I love my brother, but he's not coming to the vineyard.

I, come, to, the, vineyard. I, come, to, the, vine. Thank, God, for, my, chosen, family, because my actual family is not choosing me.

Dominic,, just just, hit, your, brothers, one, at, a, time. One at a time. Take them out one at a time. find out which one is the leader and which one you can pick off and then slowly get them into your chosen family. So

that's, actually, a, good, point., Why, are you doing all this stuff with all of them? That's yeah

which, one, are, you, closest, to, and, just, go and just hang, out, with, him, and, and, and, and, do that with each one. And I think I think you know it's life is a is is individual relationships.

Yep. Jonathan, thank you. Jonathan,, you, are, a, beautiful storyteller and your life is um it it is rich. Uh and uh thank you. Thank you for your willingness to share it and thank you for being out there on the front lines uh fighting for our democracy. Uh it it is sometimes thankless work, but you do it with grace.

Thank, you., It's, a, calling. Yes,, it, is., It, has, been, a, calling, from the time you were reading the National Geographic.

It's, a, little, kid. A, little, big, kid., But appreciate, the, truth. It, is, a, It, is

It, is, such, a, pleasure. Oh,, thank, you., This, is, fun.

Questions about this episode

What is discussed in "JONATHAN CAPEHART on Race, Faith, Family, and Becoming Himself | IMO"?

In order: 0:00 Jonathan Kart, Jonathan King, Theaflu, Yet Here I Am; 10:00 Theaflu, St. Margaret; 20:00 Jonathan King, St. Margaret; 30:00 Carlton College, Jonathan King, Matthew Brooks; 40:00 Matthew Dominic, Uncle McKinley, Jonathan King, St. Margaret; 50:00 Matthew Dominic, Jonathan King.

What is mentioned in this Michelle Obama episode?

9 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Matthew Dominic, Jonathan King, Theaflu, Jonathan Kart, St. Margaret, Uncle McKinley. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "JONATHAN CAPEHART on Race, Faith, Family, and Becoming Himself | IMO"?

The episode runs 1 h 1 min; the transcript is about 9,967 words in 252 timestamped sections.

More from Michelle Obama

About this transcript: the episode's spoken words as captioned on YouTube, split into timestamped sections. Reclip.Me locates every person, work and idea in the text, keeps the time it is first named, and quotes the words around it verbatim. Last updated January 24, 2026.