Transcript

The Jaggedness Principle: Rethinking Talent & Success from Todd Rose

From Mick Unplugged Podcast · Episode page · Watch on YouTube

· 35 min · 7,316 words · 64 timestamped sections

This is the full, timestamped transcript of "The Jaggedness Principle: Rethinking Talent & Success from Todd Rose", an episode of Mick Unplugged Podcast published February 20, 2026 (35 min, about 7,316 words). It mentions 23 people, works and ideas, including Kevin Rose, Mick Hunt, Mick Unplugged, Jagginess principle, Neil Diamond.

What this episode is about

The discussion explores how conventional metrics of talent and achievement overlook true potential, arguing that extraordinary success can come from nontraditional paths and durable drives rather than standard credentials. It also critiques societal myths about leadership and culture, drawing on Todd Rose’s ideas to rethink what motivates people and how excellence is developed.

Key takeaways

  • From a 0.9 GPA to a Harvard doctorate, Todd Rose rewrites the math of potential, not limits.
  • Motivation > IQ: legends aren’t born perfect—they’re forged by accountability to a 'because' moment.
  • Honors programs reward curiosity over conformity; learning becomes a debate, not a recital of right answers.
  • GED to greatness reveals a counterintuitive truth: structure (like honors) can unlock anti-structure thinking.
  • Leadership myth-busting: success hinges on deliberate values, messy failures, and showing up for the people who depend on you.

Who speaks in this episode?

What is discussed, and when

  1. – 5:00: Kevin Rose, Harvard, Collective Illusions, Mick Hunt
  2. – 10:00: Neil Diamond, Weber State University, Kevin Rose, Harvard
  3. – 15:00: Jagginess principle, Collective Illusions, Kevin Rose, Major General Hank Taylor
  4. – 20:00: Collective Illusions, Social Media, Zero sum
  5. – 25:00: Collective Illusions
  6. – 30:00: Collective Illusions, New England Patriots, Social Media, New England Patriots
  7. – 34:58: Kevin Rose, Super Bowl, Mick Unplugged, New England Patriots

Notable quotes from "The Jaggedness Principle: Rethinking Talent & Success from Todd Rose"

  • Got a GED with a 0.9 GPA and went on to get a Harvard doctorate? You're about to listen to an amazing episode with my buddy Todd Rose, who's going to break down a lot of…
    about Kevin Rose · at
  • Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another exciting episode of Mick Unplugged. And today we are diving deep with the visionary who is reshaping our understanding of human potential, the.
    about Mick Hunt · at
  • I'm not, it's really hard. And so I decided, okay, I'm going to go to college. And I went to Weber State University in Ogden, Utah. that's where Dame Lillard went. That's our…
    about Weber State University · at
  • I'm walking out of his office, Marilyn Diamond, her desk was right next to the door. And I'm walking past and she reached out and grabbed my arm and she said, Listen, I…
    about Neil Diamond · at
  • Forward, I ended up graduating as the honor student of the year three years later with a 3.97 GPA and I had just gotten into Harvard for my doctorate.
    about Harvard · at
  • Individuals instead of groups of individuals, what we find is this really cool idea. It's called the Jagginess principle, which is human beings are multi-dimensional, right? Makes sense.
    about Jagginess principle · at
  • Excuses, the decisions that limit you from becoming the best person that you can be. And then I got introduced to this book called Collective Illusion.
    about Collective Illusions · at
  • Like this heck, this would be kind of rare. Like how often this happened, but because of social media, it's just everywhere. Everywhere. Like our my think tank populace is most…
    about Social Media · at

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

  • Kevin Rose — Person · Referenced family member · 6 mentions · first at
    Todd Rose describes holding his son as the origin of his 'because'—a motivating responsibility that triggered his life change.
  • Mick Hunt — Person · Host · 1 mention · first at
    He hosts 'Mick Unplugged,' guides the conversation toward leadership and collective illusions, and promotes Todd Rose's book giveaway.
  • Neil Diamond — Person · Referenced influential person in guest's life · 4 mentions · first at
    She encouraged Todd Rose to persist and helped him enter the honors program, becoming a pivotal catalyst in his academic turnaround.
  • Major General Hank Taylor — Person · Referenced historical figure · 1 mention · first at
    Referenced as the origin of standardization and interchangeable-parts thinking that shaped job descriptions and management practices Todd Rose critiques.
    Descriptions is a relic of the age of standardization where we thought first about like literally like Frederick Taylor is the guy that really implemented all this in society…
  • David Allen — Person · Referenced expert · 1 mention · first at
    Cited as the creator of the 'Getting Things Done' productivity method that Todd Rose uses as a daily organizational ritual.
    So, I am obsessed with organization because I'm not a very organized person like innately. And so, I am very faithful to David Allen's getting things done and I use these…
  • Damian Lillard — Person · Referenced example · 1 mention · first at
    Mentioned as a notable alumnus of Weber State University, used as a quick cultural reference point.
    Decided, okay, I'm going to go to college. And I went to Weber State University in Ogden, Utah. that's where Dame Lillard went. That's our only claim to fame. And I was just I…

Companies & orgs

  • Weber State University — Organization · Referenced institution · 3 mentions · first at
    Where Todd Rose began college, discovered the honors program environment that fit him, and experienced a major turning point enabled by Marilyn Diamond.
  • Harvard — Organization · Referenced institution · 3 mentions · first at
    Represents the endpoint of Todd Rose’s academic turnaround (acceptance for doctorate) and supports the episode’s theme of potential and fit.
  • New England Patriots — Organization · Shared interest / recurring reference point · 2 mentions · first at
    Used as a cultural touchstone for leadership and team culture; both host and guest identify as fans and reference Patriots-related leadership examples.
    Down a lot of collective illusions that we have in society on leadership, on culture. We talk about all things New England Patriots, but at the end we really break down what…
  • Buffalo Bills — Organization · Referenced organization · 1 mention · first at
    Mentioned in a brief anecdote about a player Todd Rose likes (Damar Hamlin) and perceptions of another player's reputation.
    Know there's an other funny thing I'll tell you real quick is you know I've gotten to be a guy I really love Demar Hamlin plays for the Buffalo Bills and when we signed Stefon…

Products & tech

  • Pappy Van Winkle — Product · Referenced product (social plan / banter) · 1 mention
    Mentioned as a bourbon Todd Rose and Mick Hunt plan to share when meeting in person, reinforcing rapport and informal close.
  • Pappy Van Winkle — Product · Referenced product (planned celebratory drink) · 1 mention
    Used as a closing, informal bonding detail about meeting in person and sharing bourbon.

Concepts & topics

  • Jagginess principle — Concept · Core topic (human variability) · 2 mentions · first at
    Used to explain why people have uneven strengths across dimensions, supporting the argument for role fit and against one-size-fits-all job descriptions.
  • New England Patriots — Concept · Recurring shared-interest topic · 3 mentions · first at
    Used as a bonding thread between host and guest and as an example for leadership/culture; referenced in rapid-fire questions and Super Bowl discussion.
    Down a lot of collective illusions that we have in society on leadership, on culture. We talk about all things New England Patriots, but at the end we really break down what…
  • Social Media — Concept · Core topic (driver of distortions) · 3 mentions · first at
    Presented as a major amplifier of collective illusions by distorting perceived norms and increasing social pressure and self-silencing.
  • Artificial Intelligence — Concept · Core topic (future context) · 3 mentions
    Todd Rose frames AI as an 'answer machine' that will reshape society, arguing education must shift from memorizing answers to thinking and debating.
  • Personalized learning — Concept · Referenced example domain · 1 mention · first at
    Used to support the argument that studying individuals (not group averages) reveals jagged profiles and improves fit in education and work.
    Individual level. So things that give rise to like personalized medicine, personalized learning, personalized nutrition. And when we start looking at individuals instead of…
  • Zero sum — Concept · Core topic (framing) · 1 mention · first at
    Todd Rose contrasts zero-sum thinking with 'positive-sum systems' to argue societies can grow the pie materially and psychologically.
    In my wonky beliefs like as an academic I care a lot about positive sum systems right so we treat the world like a zero sum like for me to win you have to lose And it's just…
  • personalized medicine — Concept · Referenced example domain · 1 mention · first at
    Cited as an example of individual-level science methods that parallel Todd Rose’s approach to understanding people beyond averages.
    When I was a professor was in the methodologies that study science at an individual level. So things that give rise to like personalized medicine, personalized learning…
  • Personalized Nutrition — Concept · Referenced example domain · 1 mention · first at
    Another example of individual-level approaches illustrating why one-size-fits-all models fail for humans.
    Individual level. So things that give rise to like personalized medicine, personalized learning, personalized nutrition. And when we start looking at individuals instead of…

Places & events

  • Super Bowl — Event · Referenced event (sports context) · 3 mentions · first at
    Mentioned in a story about coping after a disappointing game and as part of Patriots-related banter; also referenced in a comment about Tom Brady.
    Listen, no, no kidding. Coming back from the Super Bowl, my buddy and I, we're What are we going to do? This was awful. We pulled in and literally went and got High West bourbon and just.

Media & podcasts

  • Mick Unplugged — Podcast · Primary show / setting · 2 mentions · first at
    The podcast where the conversation occurs; the host frames the episode around uncovering the guest’s 'because' and leadership insights.
    Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another exciting episode of Mick Unplugged. And today we are diving deep with the visionary who is reshaping our understanding of human potential, the.

Sponsors

  • Collective Illusions — Book · Core artifact (book discussed and promoted) · 11 mentions · first at
    Central book that frames the episode’s main thesis: people conform to perceived norms that are often wrong, producing distorted culture and policy outcomes.

Full transcript with timestamps

So, what if I told you the smartest person that I know graduated or actually got a GED with a 0.9 GPA and went on to get a Harvard doctorate? You're about to listen to an amazing episode with my buddy Todd Rose, who's going to break down a lot of collective illusions that we have in society on leadership, on culture. We talk about all things New England Patriots, but at the end we really break down what everything means to Todd and why he does the things that he does. Ladies and gentlemen, I present my really good friend, the esteemed, the honorable Todd Rose.

This is Mick Unplugged. Let us uncover the because that thing that drives you. That thing that fuels you. I'm ready if you are. Let's go. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another exciting episode of Mick Unplugged. And today we are diving deep with the visionary who is reshaping our understanding of human potential, the future of leadership. He has a GED and several Harvard degrees to back it up. But the most important part of this conversation to me is he is a New England Patriot thie hard just as much as I am. So, please join me in welcoming the insight, the visionary, the incomparable, my god, Mr. Ty Rose. Ty, how you doing today, brother? Great.

It's good to see you. Good to see you, too, man. Ty, there's a lot I want to get into. Um, I'm a huge fan of the work that you do, but I'm an even bigger fan of your journey, bro. And, you know, like you have a story that only Tai Rose can tell. And I'm I'm so proud of you, man. And you know, I always start my conversations with my dad by asking them what is their because that thing that's deeper than your why. That's your true accountability. And it changes over time. So if I were to say, Ty Rose, today 2026, what is your cause? Why do you keep doing the things that you

Yeah, that's I love this about what you do. And it it's made me think deeper than why, you know, as as you taught us the You know, it's funny. I' I'd like to think that it's different than it's been, but but actually my because that still animates me. It's blossomed and grown, but it really came back to this moment in Leight in Utah in a hospital room when I held my son for the very first time. And you know, I was 19. I probably don't recommend that as a as a starting point. You know, um you'd mentioned I have a GED. I didn't even have that yet. I had been kicked out of high school uh with a 0.9 GPA. I had had a string of minimum wage jobs and here I am sitting there and they and they hand me my son Austin is his name and I just realized you know it was one thing to mess up your own life it's very different when you realize the responsibility you had to this this person that didn't ask to be born right

and you know the reason this became important to me is it kicked off I didn't necessarily believe in myself then but I knew I had to do right by my son And so that became a really powerful because for me and you know since then and we can talk about that journey really that that because led to a series of other because along the way so you know here I am I had had like 10 minimum wage jobs in two years. Everybody was frustrated with me. I knew something had to change and I decided I'd get my GED and I would try my hand at college, which is kind of funny since, you know, high school. Literally 0.9 GPA. Like I didn't even get socially promoted, right? Like this was so bad. And um you know, my my dad told me, "Hey, look," he said, "I think you're really smart, but you have to be motivated." He's like, "When you're not motivated, you're just not very good." Which is so true. like if I'm passionate, I'm on fire and I and

I'm as good as anybody. But the second I'm not, it's really hard. And so I decided, okay, I'm going to go to college. And I I went to Weber State University in Ogden, Utah. Uh that's where Dame Lillard went. That's our only claim to fame. And you know, I was I was just I knew that what I had done before hadn't worked. Trying to to learn the way everybody told me people were supposed to learn. And I I really recognized there was something different about me and I needed to to embrace that. And you know I was doing okay and there was this really defining moment for me which unlocked another because and it was this. So I'm sitting in a really large auditorium for a history class which I tried to avoid. That kind of setup didn't work so well for me. And I was complaining to my friend Steve about it that you know this was not a good setup. And he says he goes well this is nothing compared to the what I

got myself into in the honors program. And I was like I don't even know what that is. And he said oh it's so bad. And he said, "There aren't big auditoriums. They're just like 10 people in a class." And I was like, "Well, that's interesting." And he said, "There are no tests. You just write stuff. That's interesting, too." And then he goes, "I don't even think there are right answers. All we do is argue all the time." And I was like, "This sounds amazing." Like that. I didn't never in a million years thought that it could be that way, that learning could be. And so I immediately bolted up to the honors program. It was on top of the hill. It had its own little second floor of the library. And I went in and I said,"I want to see the the director of the program." And the secretary who's one of the most important people in my life and gave me a new because her name was Marilyn Diamond. And she said, 'Okay,

let me get you in. And I sit down with the with the the director of the honors program and I said, "I want to be in the program." And he said, "That's great. Just a few questions." He said, "What was your high school GPA?" And it was no kidding. I said, "Um, 0.9." And his response was, "What 0.9?" Like I like I left off the most important part. And I said, "Oh," and he was really nice about it. He said, "You know, I'm sorry you can't be in the honors program." You know, I was so mortified. I grabbed my stuff and I just as fast I could get out of there and go crawl in a hole. And as I'm walking out of his office, Marilyn Diamond, her desk was right next to the door. And I'm walking past and she reached out and grabbed my arm and she said, "Listen, I overheard the conversation. If you want this, don't take no for an answer." And I was like, "Wait, you can do that?" and she said, "Sit on that couch and don't leave until

he let you in." So, I did and it for a few hours and finally he called me back in and he said, "You know, look, why do you want to be in the honors program? Like, on paper it makes no sense." And I started explaining that I'd learned a lot about myself in the first year or so I was there and I knew what it took for me to to do well and this all seemed to be a perfect environment. And um he said, "Okay, I'm going to let you in on a provisional basis." and he said, "You take one class and if you do well, you can take another and another." Flash forward, I ended up graduating as the honor student of the year three years later with a 3.97 GPA and I had just gotten into Harvard for my doctorate.

And I I shared this because it it taught me something really important that became not just personal. It's still personal because, but has driven everything I've done since, which was I was still the same kid. So, the kid that had done so poorly, um, it taught me two things. one, the incredible value of fit, right? So, we tend to think I try something once, I don't do well. Well, I'm not good enough at it. That's not what I'm like your strategy could be wrong. It could be the wrong environment. But getting that fit between you and your environment is so important. And things get a lot easier when you get that fit. The second thing was, you know, I I had sort of thought about talent and potential as almost like this thing I do. There's something inside me and if I work hard enough, it'll come out. It'll be fine. what it taught me and I have a dozen other stories just like it was yeah you got to

work really hard but there's a role for other people in your success that is so important and again it doesn't negate that I worked hard I did but Marilyn Diamond it you know she changed my life and here's what's really funny just a couple years ago we state invited me back and gave me an honor right like hey look you did good and I'm sitting there in this auditorium I'm speaking to all these people and I found out that Marilyn Diamond was retiring and she was there in the audience. I thought, well, what a great chance to to really acknowledge the role she's played. So, I told the crowd some version of the story I just told you and the the president of the university says, "Marilyn, why don't you come up and say a few words?" She comes up, she's short, she adjusts the mic, and she says, "You know, Todd, it's good to see you. I have to admit, I I don't remember this." And I thought I thought she was saying I was lying or

something. And I was like, "Oh, it happened." She goes, "No, no, I believe it happened. I just don't remember it." Well, it turns out everybody had a Marilyn Diamond story because that's the kind of person she was. And it really dawned on me that when it comes to our role in other people's lives, we tend to think that it's going to be some herculean effort, right? Like like when in reality, this thing that was life-changing for me was so inconsequential, she didn't even remember it. And you know, so when we think about what what it means to to develop our fullest potential, make our best contributions to society, succeed, you know, there does involve other people and we can be that for other people as well.

And that story, hearing you say it in that just I've heard it before, but I've never heard it one directly from you and the detail that you gave, it's so touching, man, because you know, one of the things that I heard in that story is keep going, right? what happens, you got to keep going. But there's a couple of things I want to unplug because you and I have so many similarities in what we talk to business leaders about. And I want to start with this one right here. I think as leaders, a lot of times we ask our team members to do too much because of what the title says right?

Yeah. and and and when there's a title and and I don't care how big the title is. It could be a small title, but we like to encompass a lot of responsibilities into one human and we forget the gift or the actual skill set that was why we hired them or why we have them a part of the team in the first place. I'd love to get your take on that because I've heard you talk about it, but a lot of times I'm going to use salespeople as an example, right? We've got a salesperson or salespeople that are killing it, but then we want them to do admin work or we ask them to that aren't sales. And so then when they struggle, it's like, well, what do they struggle with? And it has nothing to do with sales, right? It's all the other things. Or we have people that we don't have sales roles. And I hate when people say, but everybody sells, but whatever.

Then pay them to do that or hire them for that specific thing. When they don't do that, it's not there. or we have people that are are designed to do research and development, but we also want them to do two or three things and that dilutes who they actually are and a lot of times forces people to leave. So how

listen you're I'll just say amen to that and I'll just push down on that a little bit like they it it's kind of remarkable, right? So first of all, you know, my professional background early when I was a professor was in the methodologies that study science at an individual level. So things that give rise to like personalized medicine, personalized learning, personalized nutrition. And when we start looking at individuals instead of groups of individuals, what we find is this really cool idea. It's called the Jagginess principle, which is human beings are multi-dimensional, right? Makes sense.

Like take body size. Size is not one dimension, right? Height, weight, chest circumference, whatever. Same is true cognitively, all this stuff. And what we look at is we tend to think with body size, well there's a small, medium, large, extra large as if it just scales up. It's not how it works. It is it's remarkable. So everyone's jagged is that is they're going to be on the high end on some things, on the low end on others, and in the middle on some things. every single human being. And the reason this is really important is the best if I were king for a day, the best possible thing I would tell a leader to put people in positions where they're really going to thrive and contribute is if you could I still believe in, you know, division of labor.

Great. And specialization. But you really got to do two things. One, where's your comparative advantage, right? So like I'm actually better at this thing because of my jaggedness. Two, I have to care about it. if I don't care like as you know like listen I will tell you like if you can have all the talent in the world and you don't care about the work you're doing it's not meaningful to you there's only so far you're going to get but what's so funny is this idea of like job titles and job descriptions is a relic of the age of standardization where we thought first about like literally like Frederick Taylor is the guy that really implemented all this in society in the night and we're still living in his shadow today where he really saw he said forget about talent we just want people to be able to interchangeable parts and and he really meant that like you just plug people in. And so in that case, the

job description became everything and you just kind of wedged people in. Well, when you realize and take into account human jaggedness and the fact that everybody can be excellent at something, but no one's excellent at everything. You find you get people into that space where it's like to your to your example, they might be like the best salesperson that you have and for whatever reason you put more on their plate on doing things that at best they're mediocre. like at best and at worst it's literally draining the passion that they have and then they end up exiting and you get into this sort of like treadmill of like hire rehire and it's just it's it's wild you know I my dad who just retired he designed airbags for a living one of the one literally has so many patents in that space to save so many people's lives the president of the autole which was the airbag company told me personally if it weren't for my dad's

inventions in this razor thin margin industry they might be out of business Okay, awesome. Congratulations. He loves it. Like, he was built to be an engineer in this space. Well, as everything's succeeding and he's like, "Of course, I'd like to make a little more money and be recognized." And they're like, "Well, the only way you can do that is you have to get on the management track." And I'm like, "Listen, I love my dad. He would be a terrible manager, right? He just wants to get the job done. He doesn't want to deal with people like this." And it's like, you structured something where the only way they can be acknowledged and rewarded for their contributions is to change what it is they're doing. Like it makes no sense.

Now to their credit, they made one carveout. My dad's name is Larry. They gave him the Larry carve out. So they let him have this path of an engineering path and I'm like what? Why would that be specific to him like let people do what they are good at and passionate about and everybody's better off.

Yeah. Yeah. Amazing man. Totally amazing. And another thing that I've learned directly from you and it's weird because I've been I have this concept that I call get out of your bed, right? and and it's beed the beliefs, the excuses, the decisions that limit you from becoming the best person that you can be. And then I got introduced to this book called Collective Illusion. And I sat there and said, not that it validated my thoughts on beliefs, excuses, and decisions, but it gave me a deeper way to look at how we do those exact things. And so I want to give you the floor to talk about collective illusions. you know what was the framework that said yep I need to do this book and this is the book now and then let's get into it a little bit man because it's changed my life

well so I didn't like it was not on my bingo card to be in this this line work I just follow the things that matter to me you know it a couple of things that I care deeply about that might qualify as my because now um I because my own journey and look I've been at the very bottom academically I've been arguably at the top um and what I realized is all along the way there were people with unbelievable potential and you know for some lucky breaks or whatever and you just realized we had a a system that not only didn't try to cultivate it just didn't care right it was about selection rather than development of people and in in my wonky beliefs like as an academic I care a lot about um positive sum systems right so we treat the world like a zero sum like for me to win you have to lose And it's just not true. It's not true. The pie can grow, not just materially, but also psychologically, right? Like my thriving can benefit you

and your thriving can benefit me. Well, so I was obsessed with like, okay, how do we create the conditions for that kind of positive society? And it was funny. It was in before the 2016 election, like we were up and realized, oh wow, hold on. We thought we were doing like polling to try to understand where people were and then it was like what just happened? Like nobody saw this coming and we realized what we like what's going on. So we started digging in and it turned out that people just didn't feel comfortable being honest about their views. And it was shocking like in fact to this day like right now just a couple months ago our last stuff we did twothirds of Americans right now admit to self- silencing that they are not telling the truth and every single demographic group in the country is outright lying on multiple issues that matter in ways that distort fundamentally what we think those groups

believe. So we were digging in and we're like wait why would why would people say things they don't agree with? and my background is in neuroscience and psychology and I was like okay so there's group think but like so we thought well maybe that's it maybe they're just going along but they kept seeing agreeing to things publicly that I was like that's weird and so we started asking a simple question in everything we we were doing with polling back then we said what do you think most other people would say to this question and that was a simple unlock because we had all the data on what people really believed and then they kept saying well I don't think anyone else agrees with this. I was like, you're just spectacularly wrong. So here's so here's what it is. Collective illusions are simply group think, but you're wrong about the group. If you can imagine that, right? Group thinks bad enough.

They don't just go along with the crowd to go along. But that's even if the crowd is right and you're just changing your mind. So So collective illusions happen where like whole groups of people end up going along with something they don't personally agree with just cuz they incorrectly think that most everybody else agrees with it. So therefore, group think, but you're wrong about the group. And you might think like this heck, this would be kind of rare. Like how often this happened, but because of social media, it's just everywhere. Everywhere. Like our my think tank populace is most famous now for this private opinion research, right? That can get around the distortions of social pressure. It's it's just wild. Like you name anything that matters in this country right now, it's a coin toss whether you're even right about what most Americans believe.

Yeah. Yeah. And isn't it crazy when you really break that down? What I appreciate about collective illusion is while you talk theory, there's a lot of research that backs up the things that you were actually countering a little bit, right? So again, this is why I love it. I'm a I'm a research and history nut anyway. So there are a few things in there I'm like, dang it, why didn't I think of that? Right. So So give us a couple examples of some of these collective illusions that that we've had, past, recent, whatever. So, I'll give you a couple recently. Um, one that was pretty politically charged and then one that's not I think is more important. And we could we could we could spend all day talking about these.

It's unfortunately they're just all over the place. But so remember the defund the police movement. Whatever true injustices that they're addressing, the idea that you're going to essentially defund the police, there was at its peak on that in in 2020 over 60% of Democrats publicly said that they supported defunding the police. We had private opinion data on it that showed it was never more than 9%. Okay, this is a big problem because and this is the problem with collective illusions is you think they're sort of harmless. Well, I'm just going to say what I think I'm supposed to say so I stay with my group. Well, okay, except for politicians implemented policies in places like San Francisco and Seattle and everything because they thought that's what people wanted and it those were disastrous. Not just in my opinion, they've since rolled back those policies, right? And it's like it's bad enough when you get sort of bad policies

because people actually wanted them, but it's pretty tragic when it's all done under a collective illusion, right? You just thought this is what you were supposed to say. Okay. But here's a here's a more like I think a more profound one is the biggest collective illusions we've ever identified have to do with success. What a successful life is. And if you think about it, what what's really more important than the kind of life you aspire to, right? That you want to live. So, we did the largest private opinion study ever on how people define a successful life. And the thing that I'm really proud of on this research, and it's all available on our website, you want to see it is with success, you can't have everything. It's always a trade-off, right? And so, we studied, we used a a methodology called conjoint, which is really cool. It forces real world trade-offs and it's impossible to game. And so, I can get

for you what your trade-off priorities are for a successful life. And we studied over 65 of these things. Everything from being the richest person you know to having a family, everything in between. Now, here's what's crazy. When we had them do the the private opinion instrument for themselves, and then we say after each question, we say, "What do you think most people would say?" Right? So, we're building a model of what they think everybody cares about and what they really do. So, this was wild. The number one thing that people think that most other people care about for success is being famous. like kind of kind of tracks in private, it is dead last. Dead last. And instead, when when you look at what people privately aspire to, the number one thing they actually care about is doing work that has a positive influence on other people. They want to contribute. Like that's number one for the life they want to live. The

other things that really blew my mind in the top 10 for every demographic are all character related things, their relationships. And this one blew my mind. every single demographic has in their top 10 wanting to be actively involved in their community is wow I never now they're not getting it and in fact we measured achievement on these things like how you doing right turns out being involved in your community is the the lowest achieved of any top 10 priority this is no kidding more people in our study reported being debtree than involved in their community at the level they want to be like so here we have this we have this American public across demographics including young the youngest, you know, Gen Z in our studies, they they aspire to live lives of of meaning and purpose and contribution and they're not getting it right. And when but they think, well, what do they think society cares about?

Fame, fortune, power. And so it's not it it's fine. Like I like I love what I do and I also like the fact that that something I have did matter to you, right? It's nothing wrong with wanting other people to see you as successful. Nothing wrong at all. But you can see the slippery slope where I can either do the thing I care about and then hope people acknowledge it or if I think listen I think everyone else cares about fame. So if I chase fame then people will think I'm successful. And this is as you know this is a dead end because we look at our research and we also study how people's think about their lives like life satisfaction. Achieving on your own private priorities is the fastest way to having much higher life satisfaction. Like it's it's incredible.

No amount of achievement on things that other people cared about increases life satisfaction at all. So that's it. So for me it's like there are literally we found these collective illusions on almost 100 different issues so far. This one around success to me matters most because as we start to corrupt the choices we make about the lives we live, it's a dead end for us. It's the fastest way to like being miserable and resentful and things like that. And meanwhile, we don't want to do it. And so as as we get back to who we really are and we try to reclaim some of that authenticity that's the kryptonite of collective illusions, it's like I have a lot of hope for us individually and and collectively as a people.

Dude, you you've blown my mind. It's a book, man, that like you you can't put down when you get into it. And that's what I love. again the research aspect of it. You know, we were talking about early education um when we started this and one of the things that I did uniquely different with my children was have the conversation about research and debate more than you actually do work. A lot of parents as my kids were growing up, they were like, "Well, well, why are you doing that or why is that something that you do?" And I said, "Well, one, I didn't have the internet when I was a kid. So it was one of those things where when somebody told you something, it was the same thing they told your parents and maybe even your grandparents, right? And so it was just kind of like there was no growth for what we were doing. Like I want my kids to be smarter, more educated than I was. And I was an honor student, right?

But it was what I learned was when I debated, when I had debate, I cared more and and I researched more and I could argue points better and I remember things more. And and to me, that's what that that's what collective illusions takes me back to is,

hey, I'm gonna I'm gonna argue. I'm gonna debate, but I'm gonna do it with stats versus opinion. Right.

I love what you're bringing up here because if you think about it, how far ahead you were on this because if I were thinking about what it means to prepare kids for an age where AI, I know we're sick of talking about it everywhere, but like it will be the new operating system for society and it is it is an answer machine, right? It's, you know, search was search. Now it's no, it's it's answers. And it like we've trained generations of kids in school to be answer machines. Like there's a right answer, learn how to say it. And you know, you see some of the most worst excess of that in higher ed right now where they don't even know how to debate. They just know that there's a right thing to say, and then they're just stuck. But like I would say the single most important thing to prepare a kid would be exactly what you did because it like we are going to go through some really interesting times.

And the people that can actually think for themselves, argue constructively, are gonna grow and they're going to surf this wave. And if you're one of those answer machines, you are going to get crushed by it. It is going to be really tough.

Yeah, totally agree, man. Totally agree. Well, Todd, dude, I could talk I could talk with you forever. We didn't even talk about the Patriots, bro. Like,

because we're gonna have gonna have our own podcast. Yes. Patriots after dark. Patriots after dark. Patriots at the dark. I will have bourbon because it will be dark time and I'm allowed to have bourbon when it's dark.

Listen, no, no kidding. Coming back from the Super Bowl, my buddy and I, we're like, "What are we going to do? This was awful." We pulled in and literally went and got High West bourbon and just drowned our sorrows right after the game.

So much that we have in common. Like, I don't know how we haven't got like, we're going to remedy that. We got to hang out.

Absolutely. One of the things I want to do, Todd, and I do this especially with authors that I love and books that I love. Um, and it's become like a popular part of my show apparently because I get more I get more DMs when I do this than anything in the world. If you DM me collective, and if you can spell it right, you get bonus points. Uh, the first 20 going to go ahead when this recording is over, I'm going to order 20 copies of the book. Um, and I'm going to send out that copy to the first 20 people that messaged me collected. As always, if you're number 21, I apologize, but you can go get it yourself because you should. And Tide for number 21 through 2000, where can they get their copy? Amazon is everything, right? It's I was just told it's been a funny thing because the book came out. It's been a few years now, but it sort of now has provided answers to some of the things we've been

witnessing. the way social media distorts what kids think like some of the problems everything from you know a lot of the problems in the world and so it's it just had another spike it got sold out but I was just told that that there's more in stock now so that's good

all right so 21 through 20,000 you got to collective Illusions but the first 20 that me that message me collective I've got you covered I'm going to get you out of here on my rapid fire quick five questions ready

I'm ready all right What's one non-negotiable ritual uh that you have on a daily weekly basis? Like what's one non-negotiable for Todd?

So, this is going to sound really nerdy, but it's been really important to me. So, I am obsessed with organization because I'm not a very organized person like innately. And so, I am very faithful to David Allen's getting things done and I use these organizational systems. And what I found is as you know working on a million projects, things like that, and people want your time, every single morning, I spend the first 15 minutes deciding what my priorities are because if I don't, then it's last in first out. And I'll I'll go for days and think, what have I actually accomplished? And so just making sure I have a clear set of priorities in my own head about the things that matter to me allow me to navigate my professional world. Important. And I will say on a personal level, I've learned through some tough experiences in my own life.

Do not take for granted the people that love you. And so the second thing I do is I decide I I want to let somebody in my life know in a very concrete way why I'm grateful for them. And so I try to tee that up. And I'm not as good at that. I'll be honest. I try to do that at least a couple times a week. But that that sense of forcing myself to not just feel the gratitude, although you do have to kind of it's it's hard sometimes, but acknowledge it. And you know, it's we just go so long uh taking for granted the people in our lives that matter. And we think, well, of course they know, but they don't always know. And even if they do, it's great to hear.

There it is. I like it. I like it. What's I'm going to ask this one differently. If you could master one new skill, what would that be?

It doesn't have to be realistic. Listen, I want to throw the football like Drake May. I'm just saying like I know it's all on the hips, you know, but I watched him on on his college clip where he threw a ball almost 80 yards and hit the crossbar. Like I was like, how do it's unbelievable? I know that's a that's a kind of lame one, but it's it's like I am so in awe of peak excellence of any kind.

Yeah. And former target, by the way, just incredible. Absolutely. Absolutely. So, speaking of Patriots, we both are Patriot guys. You can't say Tom Brady. Who is your next favorite Patriot of all time?

So, I won't say Tom Brady now that he's said he didn't have a dog in a fight for the Super Bowl. I mean, come on, man. Of course you do. Um, so I got to be honest, and this is an easy one, but I love me some Randy Moss. I just just watching watching what happened, you know, and he's just incredible. And you know there's an other funny thing I'll tell you real quick is you know I've gotten to be a guy I really love Demar Hamlin plays for the Buffalo Bills and when we signed Stefon Diggs I was like oh he's got a bad reputation damar played with him in Buffalo he said this is just not true like he has he has high level of demanding excellence of himself and of other people but he is a leader and sure enough he just he really added so much to the Patriots and it taught me you know it's Yeah. Yeah. Just again that don't judge a book by its cover. You know what I mean? You just someone you think they

have a reputation. It's like yeah, it turns out a lot of guys around him didn't want to work. And uh so so Diggs is really high up there for me right now.

Okay. I like it. I like it. I like both of those answers. That's really cool. What is one leadership myth that you wish would disappear? I think that so often we think great leaders, it's like almost like you're this top- down control sergeant that that somehow I'm the puppet master. I can move people around places rather than every time I've been around a truly great leader. They inspire and they empower. And instead of making me do something, they get me to see why I want to do the thing that they're telling me. And you know, let's go back to the Patriots. I literally think this is why I mean what Mike Rael has built from a culture standpoint and as a leader. I mean this is a team that had four wins last year as you know and four and four year four wins the year before and in one year yeah we got some lucky breaks whatever but you are a Super Bowl team runner up barely [clears throat] but you know but

the point is it was culture and it was leadership and he got those guys to buy into what he was selling. But look as a coach he could he could dangle playing time over their head. He could do whatever, but he inspired and he empowered and it it was remarkable. And I think there's there's a lesson in there in terms of what real leadership's like?

Totally agree. Totally agree. Last question for you, Todd. As the story of Todd Rose is being written, what's one word you want to define that story?

You [clears throat] know, I would hope it would be optimism that like life is life can be hard for for everybody. We all face challenges, but if you're willing to to work hard and and you're willing to learn and and and have some humility, it's pretty remarkable what we're capable of as people. And you know, I I feel like, you know, so much of my life I could have just called it, been like, well, and I could have made excuses or whatever. And look, I I can have a pity party with the best of them. So, I'm not pretending that I don't. But but you know, I I I just don't see much benefit in complaining all the time.

Either you can do something about it or you can't. If you can't, then why are you complaining? And if you can, then do something about it. And when we start thinking about getting back to building and contributing, I just think we got a great future ahead of us. Right now it seems a little dim, but I I'm I'm all in on on on us as a people. And I think that so I would hope that when people listen to me, I I I don't want to share false hope, but I do believe there's a a realistic optimism about our own lives and about the future of the country.

Amazing. Amazing, Todd. And I'm honored to have shared some time with you today. We definitely need to do this again sometime in person, Meg, because there's a lot we need to talk about. You just you you tell me tell me when and I'm there and I will bring the bourbon.

Done. Do listen listen. I'm I got to take it one step further. Let's find a time to get together. Maybe even do another round on this in person and I'll get some papy and we'll do some I'll bring the papy van winkle.

The glasses. There you go. I love it. That's a deal. What's up, Todd? Where can people find and follow you?

You know what? You could just on social media. It's on all the platforms. I go by, it's L. Todd Rose because my parents named me Larry and never never intended to call me that. So, it's I go by my middle name or just Todd Rose.com is easy.

Amazing. I'll have links to all of that in the show notes. This has been an amazing episode. Make sure you go back and relisten to this one because Todd gave so many nuggets throughout this episode. It was really a master class. So, to all the viewers and listeners, remember your cause is your superpower. Go unleash it.

You've been plugged into Mick Unplugged. Don't just listen, take action. Rate and subscribe, follow me on social, and get the full experience at mick huntofficial.com. Keep building, keep leading, and most importantly, keep dominating.

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "The Jaggedness Principle: Rethinking Talent & Success from Todd Rose"?

Todd Rose (Guest), Mick Unplugged Host (Host).

What is "The Jaggedness Principle: Rethinking Talent & Success from Todd Rose" about?

The discussion explores how conventional metrics of talent and achievement overlook true potential, arguing that extraordinary success can come from nontraditional paths and durable drives rather than standard credentials. It also critiques societal myths about leadership and culture, drawing on Todd Rose’s ideas to rethink what motivates people and how excellence is developed.

What is mentioned in this Mick Unplugged Podcast episode?

23 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Kevin Rose, Mick Hunt, Mick Unplugged, Jagginess principle, Neil Diamond, Weber State University. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "The Jaggedness Principle: Rethinking Talent & Success from Todd Rose"?

The episode runs 35 min; the transcript is about 7,316 words in 64 timestamped sections.

More from Mick Unplugged Podcast

About this transcript: the episode's spoken words as captioned on YouTube, split into timestamped sections. Reclip.Me locates every person, work and idea in the text, keeps the time it is first named, and quotes the words around it verbatim. Last updated October 29, 2026.