Episode 745: The Mysterious Case of Sunny von Bulow

What this episode is about

The discussion centers around the intriguing case of Sunny von Bulow, exploring the complexities of her mysterious hospitalization and the legal battles that ensued. The hosts also share their personal experiences, thoughts on recent events, and engage in light-hearted banter as they navigate their recording session.

Key takeaways

• Batch recording: the secret to balancing creativity and sanity in a chaotic world of content creation.
• Liquid IV might be a lifesaver, but beware of the unexpected consequences—like an urgent call from nature!
• Giraffes and urination: a surprising blend of nature's wonders and podcast humor that keeps listeners engaged.
• Thick books = thick thighs: turning literary love into fitness gains? That's one way to make readers feel empowered!
• Pre-orders hype: the modern publisher's secret weapon for excitement, exclusivity, and targeted target audience engagement.

Who speaks in this episode?

• Elena (Host) · 34 min speaking
• Ash (Host) · 34 min speaking

What is discussed, and when

1. 0:00 – 10:00: The Butcher Legacy, New Moon, The Butcher, Twilight
2. 10:00 – 20:00: The Titanic, Klaus von Bulo, Clarendon Court, Athena Doris
3. 20:00 – 30:00: Clarendon Court, Newport Hospital, Newport Hospital, Richard Q
4. 30:00 – 40:00: Clarendon Court, Alexander Isles, Richard Q, Klaus von Bulo
5. 40:00 – 50:00: Alexander Isles, Harold Faringer, Klaus von Bulo, Harvard Law
6. 50:00 – 1:00:00: Richard Q, Clarendon Court, Harvard Law, Alexander Isles
7. 1:00:00 – 1:08:32: Sunny Von Bulo

Notable quotes from "Episode 745: The Mysterious Case of Sunny von Bulow"

• Book in my Dr. Ren Mueller series is called The Butcher Legacy.

  about The Butcher Legacy · at 2:15

• Our Twilight episode is going to be coming out or excuse me, our New Moon episode is going to be coming out soon.

  about New Moon · at 5:11

• I'm so excited. All right, so let's talk about it. Martha, who was known as Sunny. Martha Sunny Crawford was born in her father's private train car.

  about Martha Sunny Crawford · at 6:38

• 24-year-old Sunny also got married in a very heavily publicized wedding to Austrian prince and tennis pro Alfred von Aberg.

  about Alfred von Aberg · at 9:17

• So, not long after they moved back to New York, Sunny ran into her old friend Klaus von Bulo. She had met him in London years earlier while she was still married to Alfred.

  about Klaus von Bulo · at 10:26

• Central Park. It must have been gorgeous. But a short time later, Sunny purchased Clarendon Court, which was a massive mansion in Newport, Rhode Island, and I believe still is.…

  about Clarendon Court · at 13:44

• Great question. Doctors at Newport managed to bring her out of the coma in a pretty short amount of time. And they said the incident was hypoglycemia, but they noted no other irreg irregular.

  about Newport Hospital · at 22:51

• Wow, Alan. But from his office at Harvard, he assembled a legal team, mostly made up of his law students, and they broke up into smaller teams, each focusing on specific pieces of the.

  about Harvard Law · at 50:32

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

• Klaus von Bulo — Person · Core topic (accused/defendant in case) · 3 mentions · first at 10:30
  Central figure in the Sunny von Bülow case; accused of attempting to murder his wife via insulin injections and tried twice in Rhode Island.
• Martha Sunny Crawford — Person · Core topic (victim/subject of case) · 1 mention · first at 6:41
  Primary subject of the episode’s case: heiress Sunny von Bülow, two comas linked to insulin, long-term coma and death.
• Alfred von Aberg — Person · Referenced background figure (first husband) · 1 mention · first at 9:22
  Sunny’s first husband; their marriage, move to Europe, children, and divorce set up her later relationship with Klaus.
• Annie Lorie Crawford — Person · Referenced background figure (mother) · 1 mention · first at 6:51
  Sunny’s mother; inherits fortune with Sunny, later remarries; her name is used for Sunny’s child (Annie Lorie/‘Alla’).
  On September 1st, 1931 in Virginia. All while her parents, George and Annie Lorie Crawford, were traveling to New York.
• Dr. Ren Mueller — Person · Referenced fictional character/series anchor · 1 mention · first at 2:15
  Named as the series identity for Elena’s promoted books; establishes the fiction franchise being advertised.
  I am so excited to share that the next book in my Dr. Ren Mueller series is called The Butcher Legacy.
• The Vanderbilts — Person · Referenced high-society family (context) · 1 mention · first at 13:56
  Cited as an example of wealthy families vacationing in Newport, framing the social environment.
  Island, and I believe still is. and obviously at that time, the wealthiest families in the nation were vacationing in Newport, like the Vanderbilts, the Ator, and Doris Duke…
• Athena Doris — Person · Referenced high-society figure (context) · 1 mention · first at 14:00
  Mentioned as part of the Newport wealthy set and as someone previously covered by the hosts.
  Families in the nation were vacationing in Newport, like the Vanderbilts, the Ator, and Doris Duke, who we also covered. So from that point forward, they split their time between New York and Rhode Island.
• Adolf Ash — Person · 21 mentions
• Richard Q — Person · 10 mentions · first at 24:13
  You should or I'm done here. So that put Klaus in a difficult position. The family's attorney, Richard Q, said he had no money and so divorce as he saw it was not an option. It…
• Alexander Isles — Person · 7 mentions · first at 19:50
  With each other. And in March of 1979, Klaus started having an affair with former soap opera actress Alexandra Isles. And before long, they had fallen very deeply in love with…
• Sunny Von Bulo — Person · 2 mentions · first at 6:26
  So, we're going to be talking about the mysterious case of Sunny Von Bulo.
• Harold Faringer — Person · 2 mentions · first at 41:31
  Yeah. So, in an interview with the press, one of his lawyers, Harold Faringer, told reporters, We're not trying to prove Sunny deliberately tried to kill herself those two times a year apart, but she was so very sick and.
• John Sheen — Person · 1 mention · first at 39:24
  Most recent one. He pleaded not guilty to both charges. And in a statement to the press, his lawyer, John Sheen, said Klouse was devastated by the accusation and the children's…
• George Crawford — Person · 1 mention

Books & papers

• The Butcher Legacy — Book · Promoted work (host announcement) · 2 mentions · first at 2:19
  Elena announces and promotes the upcoming release in her Dr. Ren Mueller series, including release date and special editions.
• New Moon — Book · Referenced media (upcoming bonus episode topic) · 2 mentions · first at 5:13
  Upcoming bonus episode content; hosts discuss rereading/listening and its tone.
• Twilight — Book · Referenced media (bonus episode topic) · 2 mentions · first at 5:11
  Mentioned as a prior bonus episode that listeners enjoyed; sets up upcoming New Moon bonus episode.
  I'm really excited because the first one was such a blast to do and I know you guys seemed like you guys really liked that the Twilight episode. So, I and we had so much fun doing it.

Companies & orgs

• Newport Hospital — Company · Referenced medical institution (critical events) · 2 mentions · first at 22:34
  Hospital where Sunny is taken after both coma incidents; blood tests reveal abnormal insulin levels.
• Harvard Law — Company · Referenced institution (Dershowitz affiliation) · 2 mentions · first at 49:38
  Institutional base for Alan Dershowitz and his student legal team working on the appeal.
• Columbia Gas and Electric — Company · Referenced company (source of fortune) · 1 mention · first at 7:15
  Company where George Crawford is named chairman; used to illustrate the Crawford family’s wealth and status.
  O. and then in gas and electric and that year he was named the chairman of the board of Columbia Gas and Electric.
• The Chapen School — Company · Referenced background institution (education) · 1 mention · first at 8:18
  One of Sunny’s elite boarding schools, used to establish her high-society upbringing.
  Died, Sunny spent most of her childhood at different very elite boarding schools all along the East Coast, including the Chapen School in Manhattan and St.
• St. Timothy's School — Company · Referenced background institution (education) · 1 mention · first at 8:19
  Another elite school Sunny attended, reinforcing her privileged upbringing.
  At different very elite boarding schools all along the East Coast, including the Chapen School in Manhattan and St.
• Newport County District Attorney — Company · 1 mention · first at 38:50
  So in early 1981, Ree took everything he had to the Newport County District Attorney who quickly convened a grand jury to review the evidence. And a week later, Klaus Fonulo was indicted on two counts of attempted murder. Damn.

Places & events

• Clarendon Court — Place · Core setting (mansion; incident site; searches) · 6 mentions · first at 13:48
  Sunny’s Newport mansion where both coma incidents occur and where the black bag/lockbox searches take place.
• Munich — Place · Referenced residence location · 1 mention · first at 9:30
  Sunny and Alfred briefly live in Munich after marriage before settling in Austria.
  Yeah. So after the wedding, they moved from the US to Munich where they lived briefly and then eventually settled in Kitsbell, Austria. The following year, Sunny gave birth to their first child who she named after her mother,.
• Kitsbell — Place · Referenced residence location · 1 mention · first at 9:32
  Stated as the Austrian location where Sunny and Alfred eventually settle (spelled 'Kitsbell' in transcript).
  Yeah. So after the wedding, they moved from the US to Munich where they lived briefly and then eventually settled in Kitsbell, Austria. The following year, Sunny gave birth to…
• Newport Hospital — Place · 2 mentions · first at 22:34
  So Maria called for an ambulance and Sunny was taken to Newport Hospital. At first, doctors couldn't figure out what had caused her to slip into the coma in the first place. But after several blood tests, they determined that she had very.

Media & podcasts

• Watch What Happens — Media · Referenced appearance (hosts appeared on) · 1 mention · first at 1:39
  Elena and Ash mention they were 'on Watch What Happens' and plan to discuss it further.
  But yeah, so something cool that just happened was we were ON WATCH WHAT HAPPENS.
• The Titanic — Media · Referenced media (tangent) · 3 mentions · first at 14:06
  Used in a side discussion about the Astors and pop-culture memories; not central to the case.
  I've only watched Titanic like three or four times and I can't watch it anymore because it literally makes me ugly sobb.

Sponsors

• The Butcher Game — Book · Promoted work (series backlist) · 1 mention · first at 3:58
  Mentioned as one of the earlier books to buy before The Butcher Legacy.
  Go buy Butcher and the Ren in the Butcher Game and then buy The Butcher Legacy.
• The Butcher — Book · Promoted work (series backlist) · 2 mentions · first at 2:19
  Mentioned as a prior book in Elena’s series that listeners should buy before The Butcher Legacy.
  Book in my Dr. Ren Mueller series is called The Butcher Legacy.

Full transcript with timestamps

0:00 Hey weirdos. I'm Elena. I'm Ash. And this is Morbid. Oh, I can't get too crazy with it cuz my voice is still getting back together.

0:24 Yeah. And then you'll hack through my episode. Yeah. I almost hacked through your last one.

0:28 Yeah. We're we're like batch recording a little bit. Yeah. You know, we're going to New York. We just came off of the holidays.

0:36 We're just being responsible, you know, not too much so that we're not like aware of what's going on in the world and we like aren't able to talk to you about. We're just like kind of getting a couple done. But

0:46 I almost hacked my way through her last one, but then I realized that every time I felt like I was going to cough, if I just chugged water with liquid IV in it, this is not an ad, but it actually has liquid IV in it.

0:55 It should. You've been sick. Then it would make the cough go away. But then by the end of the episode, I had to pee so bad that I thought I was going to die.

1:02 And then I happened to find a fun fact about urination giraffes and which hopefully you just listened to.

1:07 It all worked out. I wonder Oh. Oh, hold on. Oh, all right. I took some water. I wonder what the fun fact will be today.

1:16 Uh, the fun fact today. We say it at the end, girl. That I know, but I'm just trying to lead into

1:23 Oh, you're segueing. Sorry to interrupt. You said [ __ ] that. We'll say it later. jumped in front of your segway.

1:29 Jumped right in front of MY SEGWAY. I DIED AND made me flip over. You crashed me.

1:35 That became so real. But yeah, so something cool that just happened was we were ON WATCH WHAT HAPPENS.

1:41 Every time I go to say that I I go to say watch what crapens, which is an amazing podcast. We love Rody and Ben.

1:47 Uh but amazing. Oh my god. I surreal. Incredible. Still can't believe it. I I need to like bask in it and then we can like do a full

1:57 Yeah. a full breakdown on the next episode. Exactly. And you know I will be doing that.

2:01 You need to let it settle for a minute. I just you know well in and something else exciting

2:06 tell me brother is um weirdos. Yeah. I am so excited to share that the next book in my Dr. Ren Mueller series is called The Butcher Legacy.

2:20 Ooh, that's crisp. It's crisp. That's my favorite title so far. Oh, I love that. And it's coming out on August 11th. You

2:28 mark your calendar and pre-order it now at butcherleacy.com. Legacy.com. Butcherleacy.com. You can get it anywhere you get your book. So, you'll have a little drop down menu and you can pick wherever you want to get it. But wait, there's more.

2:42 There will be a Target exclusive edition with sprayed edges and exclusive art. That's delicious.

2:49 And I'm signing a limited number of copies for Barnes & Noble. Oh my goodness. Stay tuned for even more surprises over the next few months. I'm going to keep you all updated here and on social media, of course. You're going to know about every little thing that's coming down the pipe.

3:05 All the things. All the things. Butcher legacy. I'm so excited, guys. You're going to love it. I can't wait to read it. And you can put it in your back pocket, but it's a little thick. Little thick. But go get either one. Whatever one you feel is calling to you, go get it. Pre-order it. Butcher Legacy. I'm really [ __ ] excited about this story, guys. So, I really hope you dig it.

3:29 I'm so excited because usually when Elena's writing a book, like the first two times, she has me read so much of it, but this time she didn't have me read any of it. I if anything, I read like a paragraph of a chapter here, like twice maybe. So, this I'm going into this like virtually blind.

3:43 Yeah. And that I'm really excited about. I do need to reread the last two over again so that I'm like up on everything for the third book.

3:51 Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. I'm really [ __ ] Everybody should do that. Why don't you go Why don't you go buy the first two books, you know?

3:57 Yeah. Go buy them. Go buy Butcher and the Ren in the Butcher Game and then buy The Butcher Legacy.

4:02 Put them in your back pocket. Put them in your back pocket. You know what? People are going to have to start buying cargo pants, which is good because they're in again or at least they were last season. But you're going to maybe make them popular for two seasons in a row because people are going to need more pockets to put your books into.

4:15 It's true. And this one's she's a little thick. She's a little thick. I love a thick. So, I love a thicky.

4:22 She might weigh down your booty a little bit, but you know what? It's worth it. It just means just you know what? Squat with them in your pockets.

4:29 There you go. Gains. Look at me. I'm trying I'm trying to help you with your fitness goals.

4:35 Gains. That's That's me in my book. Look at you. Ba. Put some respect on your name.

4:42 Sorry. Ba Ba. It's going to be awesome. I can't wait. And I'll come see you this this year to talk about it.

4:49 And maybe I'll tag along. Maybe depending who knows on the depending on where I'm at.

4:54 Yeah, who knows? So, go get the book. I can't [ __ ] wait. It's fun. I'm actually really excited.

5:00 I am too. Yay. What else is going on? Anything? I mean, those are two pretty big things.

5:08 Yeah, I said that like I needed more. Yeah. Our Twilight episode is going to be coming out or excuse me, our New Moon episode is going to be coming out soon. I gotta start. I want to um reread it, but I think I'm gonna listen to it so it goes a little faster.

5:21 Smart. Um and that will be such a different experience because that wasn't an option that I was at least aware of back in the day.

5:28 Yeah. So, that'll be fun. I'm really excited because the first one was such a blast to do and I know you guys seemed like you guys really liked that the Twilight episode. So, I and we had so much fun doing it.

5:39 Yeah. That I cannot wait to do New Moon because New Moon, as we all know, is batshit. [ __ ] crazy.

5:47 Yeah, it really is. New moon makes me really sad. It's a sad, but it's a wild [ __ ] ride.

5:55 It is. It gives me heartache to be honest. I remember being absolutely We'll get into it another time. Another

6:01 Don't worry. Another time on the bonus episode. Yeah, like next week. Yeah, we want to save it all.

6:06 Guess what I have for you today. What do you have? I haven't done one of these in a while. At least it feels like that to me. A high society case. Oh, you you love a high society case.

6:16 They just embody who I am. Yeah. Like I'm not high society. I wish I was, but I think I wasn't a pass.

6:21 Like your soul feels like it should be. One of them. Yeah. So, we're going to be talking about the mysterious case of Sunny Von Bulo.

6:28 Just that name alone. Any van in this case has Vaughn names up the wazoo. Oh, if there's a van

6:36 up the vanoo society. I'm so excited. All right, so let's talk about it. Martha, who was known as Sunny. Martha Sunny Crawford was born in her father's private train car.

6:47 Yeah. On September 1st, 1931 in Virginia. All while her parents, George and Annie Lorie Crawford, were traveling to New York.

6:55 So just on the way to New York, she gave birth to a child in a private train car.

7:00 What's richer than that? Yeah, that's that's pretty high cost. That's big money.

7:04 Yeah. So by the time she was born, Sunny's father had already made a [ __ ] ton of money. First in the oil industry.

7:10 O. and then uh in gas and electric and that year he was named the chairman of the board of Columbia Gas and Electric. So big [ __ ] money

7:21 of the [ __ ] board. We were talking about gains he was gaining. He and Sunny's mother had gotten married in 1927 when George was 66 and Annie Lorie was 27 and four years later Sunny was born. Given that he was 70 years old when his daughter was born and a very prominent figure in the world of finance and business, George didn't have much of a relationship with his daughter.

7:42 Ah, yeah. Yeah. And also just like fathers and daughters weren't really like hanging out a ton back then.

7:47 Uh, and in 1935 when Sunny was just four years old, George actually ended up dying after being sick briefly.

7:53 O, he left his entire fortune though, valued at more than $100 million back then.

8:00 Holy [ __ ] $100 million back then. He left his wife and daughter. Damn. Today that would be about $2.4 billion.

8:09 Whoa. Big money. Damn. So, after her father died, Sunny spent most of her childhood at different very elite boarding schools all along the East Coast, including the Chapen School in Manhattan and St. Timothy's School in Maryland. And in 1949, when she graduated from high school, she had her debut in New York's High Society.

8:29 Oh, she debuted. I've also been watching the um the old episodes of New York Housewives lately and when Tinsley's on it with her mother Dale.

8:38 Yeah. Next, this is giving that like next level. The Mortimemas. I'm so upset that I didn't get to make a debut in high society.

8:45 I know you are. Yeah. It's really I'm sorry that we couldn't provide that for you.

8:49 Thank you. Thank you so much. Maybe my 30th birthday we can have it be debutant themed.

8:53 Oh my god. Maybe I will come out to high society. There you go. Watch me. Watch this space. So in 19 Keep your eyes on this space. So, in 1957, 20 years after her father died, her mother, Annie Lorie, remarried to writer and sculptor Russell Atkin. And the two remained married until Annie Lorie died in 1984. That same year, 24-year-old Sunny also got married in a very heavily publicized wedding to Austrian prince and tennis pro Alfred von Aberg.

9:26 Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Of course. Yeah. So after the wedding, they moved from the US to Munich where they lived briefly and then eventually settled in Kitsbell, Austria. The following year, Sunny gave birth to their first child who she named after her mother,

9:41 Annie Lorie, but they called her Allah. A cute. She was followed one year later by a son, Alexander. But unfortunately, outside of their like very opulent wedding and the little short honeymoon phase that followed, Sunonny and Alfred's relationship wasn't a very happy one. Mhm.

9:57 They didn't have a lot of shared interest. Sunny hated his enthusiasm for big game hunting and the fact that he was like a shameless flirt. Like he would literally flirt right in front of her.

10:05 Ew. So in 1965, their marriage ended in divorce. In the settlement, Alfred actually received two houses and $1 million and Sunny got the kids and was able to return to the US.

10:18 Yeah. Which honestly like a million dollars is nothing to her. Yeah, that's true.

10:22 I'm sure it was something obviously, but you know what I but in her situation. So, not long after they moved back to New York, Sunny ran into her old friend Klaus von Bulo. She had met him in London years earlier while she was still married to Alfred.

10:35 Oh, but they were just friends. But, you know, she went back to New York and they met up and they rekindled their friendship and within a few months their friendship kind of evolved and they were dating.

10:45 Oh, look at Sunny and Claus. It's beautiful. And then in June of 1966, a little over a year after she got divorced from Alfred, Sunny and Klaus were married.

10:54 Oh, look at that. So, from the moment they got married, the press and the public were very interested in Klaus's story. But no matter how deep reporters dug, they really couldn't differentiate between fact and fiction when it came to Claus.

11:09 They did know that he was got a little Jay Gatsby in him. Yes. Very, very that. Very that. So he was born Klouse uh Borberg in Copenhagen, Denmark in 1926 to Sven and Janna Borberg. And after World War II, his father spend was actually accused of being a Nazi collaborator.

11:27 Yeah, horrible. And served 18 months in prison, which I say give him more. After his dad died, RI rest in distress, Klaus took his mother's maiden name, Bulo, but added the Vaughn later.

11:39 Oh yeah, he did. To make himself and fancy. Oh my god, he really is like Jay Gatsby.

11:44 And he also just gets it. You add Vaughn to your name and go fancy. And Bulo, Von Bulo sounds like a real fancy name.

11:52 It works perfectly. That's the thing like you have to be selective about where you van because

11:57 Yeah. It can't just be like Von I'm trying to think of. Von Kelly doesn't work.

12:02 Von Kelly. Yeah. Von Urkheart doesn't really work. No offense. It really doesn't.

12:09 I don't know who Von It's hard. It's hard to von. It's hard to vom. That's why it's exclusive.

12:13 That's why if you get a name that you can v with von with von von all the long von.

12:18 Yeah. Von. So von bula. So by the time they reunited in 1966, Klouse had graduated from law school and he was working as an assistant to the notorious oil magnet J. Paul Getty.

12:30 Oh, we know him. You remember him? We know him. Remember when you know he was going to get his ass beat?

12:36 Yeah. Remember that time? But Claus worked with him for a little while. I do remember that.

12:41 You remember that? Remember butthole vividly? Remember butthole change? But hole change.

12:47 That's what it was, right? But hole change. I think Imagine if I was just misremembering.

12:52 You were just like, remember that? No, I don't. I do remember you. I would beat your ass.

12:59 Listen, I stand 10 grand on that. Beat your grandpa's ass if he doesn't pay your ransom after your ear gets sliced off your [ __ ] head. Grandpa should get every right in the world to beat your grandpa's ass.

13:11 I don't I don't advocate violence often. 10 toes down, [ __ ] I'll put my hands down on that. I stand on B.

13:19 Fanges down. Beat your grandpa's ass if your ear gets cut off and he doesn't pay your rent.

13:24 Say that with my whole chest. Yeah. Titties out. I love when our cases connect though. Like whatever that

13:32 you can go back with. It's like whoa. Oh man. So he worked for the good for that. After the wedding, Klaus and Sunny settled in a large apartment on Fifth A in New York, right? Uh overlooking Central Park. It must have been gorgeous. But a short time later, Sunny purchased Clarendon Court, which was a massive mansion in Newport, Rhode Island, and I believe still is. Um and obviously at that time, the wealthiest families in the nation were vacationing in Newport, like the Vanderbilts, the Ator, and Doris Duke, who we also covered. So from that point forward, they split their time between New York and Rhode Island.

14:06 Makes sense. Also, the Aers makes me think of Titanic, John Jacob A. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

14:11 Yeah. And his new wife, who was with child, I believe. Yeah. Oh, yeah. But like

14:16 I think was she like a mistress? Yeah. Oh, [ __ ] I'm looking at Debbie for answers cuz I'm like, you and I watched this movie 100,000 times together.

14:23 I've only watched Titanic like three or four times and I can't watch it anymore because it literally makes me ugly sobb.

14:30 Yeah. I mean, I feel like watching it now would destroy myself. I can't do it. But I was thinking about this just a little little sidetrack

14:37 cuz John and I were talking about it last night. Actually, I don't know why it came up. Actually,

14:41 you talk about the Titanic pretty frequently. We do. I don't know why, but he was talking about how he saw that movie in theaters.

14:47 Oh, damn. For the first time, and he saw it with his mom. And his mom did not know

14:53 Oh. that that was going to be part of it. Oh. So, he was like he was like, "So, here I am." He's like those the first boobs I ever saw were Kate first boobs he ever saw. And

15:05 he's like and sitting in a movie theater with a million other people and his mom.

15:09 But I was like if you're first boobs being Kate Winslet in that movie I was like good for you.

15:14 That's a good first set of movies. That is I was like that's pretty elite. And I was saying how I feel bad that that uh kids that like young people today don't get to experience that era of Leonardo DiCaprio. The Romeo and Juliet Titanic era.

15:33 Yeah. Is a very specific era that nothing will ever replicate it and it will never come back. So it's just like one of it's this very specific era where it was just like yeah a very specific kind of Leonardo DiCaprio.

15:50 You know what though? We experienced a very different Leo DiCaprio and we have fun Leo stories that are alleged.

15:58 What you know like all the crazy stories about like headphones and stuff. Oh yeah. No, that's what I mean. like the the Leonardo purist of now is a very different situation than we had when we were younger. Again, I'm looking at Debbie like like confirm this for me

16:16 because that was him and his like nothing was no one was like him. We have like Lucas Matson.

16:23 I mean uh cuz remember they say that about him. I mean Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In Succession.

16:28 Yeah. Yeah. See? Yeah. That's what I mean. Different. Different. Yeah. I'm I'm I'm I'm chinning I'm I'm chin chinning your point.

16:37 He was so so pure then. I know. And I mean, you know what though? He has stayed so [ __ ] attractive.

16:43 Who? Leo. You don't think he's attractive anymore? Nothing beats Romeo and Juliet. Leonardo.

16:51 No, he was literally No, look up Le Romeo and Juliet. Leonardo DiCaprio. Just look at that specific. I mean, I've seen that,

17:01 but but you need to visualize it again. No, I know cuz that was a [ __ ] moment in my life that but watching that movie and when he came on the screen, I said, "What is this world all about?"

17:13 Yeah. I said, "What do you I said, what do you mean?" My closet still said Leonardo DiCaprio. I love Leonardo DiCaprio from you.

17:20 Him and the chain mail. That's I feel like Titanic. And poor John was like at that age, he thought it was just going to be this like action-packed

17:30 movie and he's like, I didn't know that there was going to be like a full love story involved in it.

17:34 And Karen also probably was like, oh, we'll just go witness history together. He just wasn't. He wasn't ready.

17:39 Well, they did witness history. They weren't ready. They did. And then that was it.

17:43 I can't imagine having to watch Paint Me like one of your French girls with my family.

17:47 The car scene with the hand. Yeah. Oh, honey. Yeah, that would ruin me. I would probably leave. I think I'd go to the bathroom.

17:56 Yeah, I think that would be the end of me. That'd be upsetting. All right. Well, um, how did we get there?

18:03 Oh, John Jacob asked. Oh, the Atos. The a because I had a weird moment of remembering that entire conversation.

18:09 Good for you, though. I love it. All right. So, so back to Sunny and being Vans. Uh, in 1967, a year after she married Klaus, she gave birth to their only child, Kosima, I believe is how you say her name. So, at first things in the Von Bulo's life together were pretty much going great. Like things were great. Claus was no stranger to high society. You know, he was that like Jay Gatsby type, which is also funny because then we went into a whole.

18:35 But he mixed in easily with Sunny's friends and associates. Everybody found him charming, entertaining, I don't know, probably hot. But not long after Kosima was born, things seemed to change. Sunny didn't love how Klaus was working very long hours and um carrying on with other women in full view of the public.

18:52 Oh, I that would also be something I would be pissed off about. Yeah, I would be pretty pissed. He on the other hand complained that she had completely lost interest in their relationship together after their daughter was born, which like maybe give her a [ __ ] minute.

19:05 Yeah, just like a quick a hot minute. Yeah, just a sec. But eventually they reached an impass and they decided to move into separate bedrooms, keeping up appearances for the sake of the public, but leading very separate lives.

19:15 I feel like that's like such a thing in high society. Like they just like don't Richard and Emily Do they have the same bedroom?

19:22 They do. Yeah. Oh, they do. Okay. Yeah. Well, anyway, throughout the 1970s, they separated at one point.

19:26 They do. I I can't talk about that. Don't worry, it's it's fine in the end. It's Yeah.

19:30 I don't want to bismerch the Richard and Emily. Don't you dare. You never would.

19:34 I never would. Oh gosh. So throughout the 1970s, Klaus and Sunny appeared to the outside world to be the very picture of American aristocracy. But behind closed doors, they continued to have very little to do with each other. And in March of 1979, Klaus started having an affair with former soap opera actress Alexandra Isles. And before long, they had fallen very deeply in love with each other. But Alexandra had absolutely no intention of being somebody's mistress or carrying on an affair behind Sunny's back. And she repeatedly pressed Klaus to divorce his wife, which you know,

20:10 sorry, something about that, like the moral high ground of being like, I will not continue [ __ ] you

20:16 unless you divorce your [ __ ] wife. Who do you think I am? Yeah. Like, I love that she was just like, I have no intention of being a mistress, babe. You are.

20:23 I know. I will not carry on an affair. You are. I know. Divorce your wife. Wow.

20:30 Yeah. It's all very messy. It's a very high society. Shaky ass moral high ground to be standing on. So for months, Klaus talked about leaving Sunny, promising Alexandra that he was I think that name is so pretty. I'm not talking about like her being a mistress or anything, but the name Alexandra is so pretty.

21:00 Oh, it is. It's a very pretty name. But I don't like the nickname Alex very much. Like I don't dislike the name Alex, but if I had an Alexandra, I would only want people to call her Alexandra.

21:09 Well, it's such a pretty name all together. I don't mind the nickname, but the name All I was going to say all the way.

21:15 Yeah, all the way. All the way name. Uh the all the way name is it's so pretty.

21:20 Pretty. But anyway, so he kept promising Alexander that he was planning to break up with Sunny when the time was right. But the time obviously is never that great to leave your spouse. Yeah. So, their affair dragged on with Klaus making promises of getting a divorce that he seemed pretty unlikely to keep. Then, in December 1979, a health scare kind of threw a wrench into Klouse and Alexandra's plans, causing Claus to at least temporarily recommmit to Sunny. It was about a week before Christmas and Maria Shrawlhammer, the maid at Clarendon Court, was cleaning the hallway outside of Sunny and Klaus's bedroom when she heard Sunny moaning on the other side of the locked door. So, she tried to enter the room, but from the other side of the door, Klaus insisted that Sunny was fine and that they didn't need any help.

22:06 When she was finally able to get into the room, Maria found Klouse and Sunny lying in bed. And Sunny, she said, did not look very good. When she suggested that they call the doctor, she said that Klouse strongly objected, said Sunny was fine. She was just sleeping and actually she had gotten up a few times to go to the bathroom. So like everything was fine. But by the end of the day, it was very clear that Sunny was essentially comeomaosse and Klaus was not doing anything to help her according to Maria. So Maria called for an ambulance and Sunny was taken to Newport Hospital. At first, doctors couldn't figure out what had caused her to slip into the coma in the first place. But after several blood tests, they determined that she had very unusually high levels of insulin in her blood.

22:50 How did that get there? Great question. Doctors at Newport managed to bring her out of the coma in a pretty short amount of time. And they said the incident was hypoglycemia, but they noted no other irreg irregular I can never irregularities.

23:04 Thank you so much. Irregularities at the time. So that was all very strange, but they were like, "Okay, I guess you, you know, ate too much something."

23:13 Yeah. I don't know how any of that works. You just did some too much of something.

23:18 You hypoed near the glycemia. So in the months after Sunny's return from the hospital, things basically went back to normal. But by the middle of the year, Klaus's affair with Alexandra had started once again. But it had reached a breaking point. Klouse argued that it would have been pretty cruel to propose a divorce to his wife since she had just been in a coma and that he needed to be there for her recovery. Valid me, I would argue that it's pretty cruel that you're still carrying on an affair with your wife on your wife when she was just in a coma.

23:46 Also valid. Maybe you could end that. Yeah. Yeah. But by June, Sunny was in good health and Alexandra was once again getting the feeling that Claus was not going to leave her. So she didn't want to continue on.

23:58 No, it's not. She didn't want to continue on with the affair. So she gave Klaus an ultimatum. Divorce Sunny within the next 6 months. I was like, damn, that's a nice ultimatum.

24:07 You should or I'm done here. So that put Klaus in a difficult position. The family's attorney, Richard Q, said he had no money and so divorce as he saw it was not an option. It would leave him penniless. But if Sunny was dead, then he would have her title to her house in Rhode Island, her wonderful apartment in Manhattan, and a great deal of money.

24:28 Oh, this is always when it gets a little little sticky. Yeah. And that's a quote, by the way. That's not my words.

24:33 Yeah. So, the months passed on and Claus dragged his feet, promising Alexander that he was going to go through with the divorce as soon as he felt like the time was right. But in December 1980, another emergency occurred at Clarendon Court. And this time, it was a lot more serious than the last one.

24:49 So, on December 20th, Sunny's son, Alex, arrived home and found his mother on the first floor struggling to get up the stairs. It was less than a week before Christmas and Sunny had spent the last week just preparing for the holidays and you know you know I was going to say you know mom's on holidays you just got done with that and you got sick as a dog.

25:07 Mhm. So Alex assumed that she was just very exhausted from all the work that she was putting into it. So he scooped her up and he carried her upstairs to her room and he laid her in her bed, said good night and just gave her some time to rest.

25:19 But the next morning when he went back to check on her he found her face down on the floor of her bathroom.

25:24 Oh jeez. She was unconscious. Her night gown was gathered up around her waist and there was a small amount of blood around her mouth.

25:31 Oh. So, he was panicked now and called for an ambulance, which luckily got there in just a few minutes. Former paramedic Paul Ripa said, "I knew as soon as I walked into the room and knelt beside her, she was in trouble."

25:43 So, the paramedics made a quick evaluation of Sunny's condition, and they noted that cut that she had on her upper lip, which appeared to be where the blood around her mouth had come from

25:52 and the presence of blood. now made sense. But neither Ripa or his partner could find any explanation for the cut itself. There was nothing on Sunny or near her that could have caused the cut. And if she had hit her head during the fall, it would have caused more damage than just that small cut on her lip. So, the scene didn't really necessarily make sense.

26:13 Yeah. So, they couldn't revive her there. So, they loaded her back into the ambulance and took her again back to Newport Hospital. And Klouse rode in the back with her. Now, Paul Ripa had been a paramedic for a long time at this point. So, he had seen all kinds of different behaviors from people in very stressful situations, not unlike this one, and he found Klaus's demeanor to be very odd in his opinion. He said, "Mr. Von Bulo looked at his wife with ice cold blue eyes and there was absolutely no feeling." Ooh. And it's like in most cases, we're generalizing, but in most cases, somebody in this position where like their spouse is unconscious and nobody knows why,

26:53 maybe you would make like an attempt to comfort your loved one no matter and like maybe you'd continue talking to them even if they can't hear you. But according to Paul Ripa, Klaus just seemed very removed from the situation and never said a word, which you can understand would look a little bit weird,

27:09 but also like sometimes people disassociate in stressful situations. Yeah, for sure.

27:14 And honestly, like I mean, I've never been in a situation like that with my spouse, luckily. But I I feel like we've been in similar situations in other

27:23 with other family with other family members. And I I kind of like do disassociate a little bit. Yeah, I definitely go into like straight up like just like what needs to be done mode.

27:32 Yeah, same. Exactly. Yeah. So maybe that's where he was. Who who's to say? Who's to say?

27:37 But at the hospital, Sunny's situation unfortunately did take a turn for the worse. The doctors in the ER weren't able to revive her, and they couldn't determine what had caused her to slip into a coma in the first place. But when the results of her blood test came back a couple days later, they were mostly normal, but there was the exception of her insulin level, which was 216 microunits per milliliter.

28:00 Wo. The normal range is between 5 and 15. Holy [ __ ] And hers was at 216. That's wild.

28:08 Like bananas. So, the amount of insulin in Sunny's blood was obviously extremely high for any person, regardless of circumstance. But it was especially peculiar for Sunny who aside from the one incident the previous year wasn't known to have any health problems whatsoever.

28:24 So under the circumstances the doctors concluded that her body hadn't just generated that amount of insulin on its own.

28:31 That insulin had to have been administered either by Sunny or somebody close to her.

28:36 But like why would somebody do that? Yeah. So weeks passed and unfortunately she just seemed to slip deeper and deeper into her coma and she wasn't showing any signs of improvement. So in early January, she was transferred to a long-term care unit at Columbia Hospital in Manhattan. Meanwhile, back in Rhode Island, Alex and his sister Alla started to grow suspicious of their stepfather. The tension blame,

29:00 which like yeah, I can't blame them cuz they knew like the tension between Claus and Sunny wasn't a secret and I don't think the affair was a secret either. Yeah. So, I mean, they're probably,

29:10 you know, like that is going to make you pretty suspicious. So, among other things, within a few weeks of Sunny being admitted to the hospital, Klaus was taking a lavish vacation with Alexandra Isles like nothing had happened.

29:23 Ew. In a few weeks, that's icky. Like, your wife is lying in a both their part.

29:30 Yeah. So, while Sunny's children from her first marriage may have grown suspicious of Klouse, there was nothing about Sunny's condition to doctors at that point that suggested foul play for like enough for the police to investigate the situation, which is really weird to me, but

29:46 I'm like, I don't know, different time. Yeah. So, still, Alex and his sister were convinced that Claus had done something to their mom. So they reached out to the family lawyer, Richard Q, and he was a former Manhattan district attorney and the family's, like I said, personal lawyer. So he suggested that while they really had no cause yet to go to the police, there was nothing preventing them from looking into things on their own.

30:08 Yeah. So Alex kind of started looking into Klaus's behavior in the months leading up to Sunny's coma. Like kind of like looking back on a few things.

30:16 These these are some kids right here. Yeah. Yeah. These are the kind of kids you want to have. So, like I said, it wasn't shocking or new information that their dad was having an open affair. But what was surprising was that in the months before the incident, Klouse was allegedly spreading rumors about Sunny, including a rumor that she was struggling with a drinking problem. What the [ __ ]

30:37 And an addiction to prescription pills, which he said had started long before he met her.

30:42 But as far as her own children knew, Sunny was never much of a drinker. And this rumor kind of seemed to come out of nowhere. Hm.

30:48 It's like why are you like why would you even do that? Yeah. Why are you setting her up to be like a

30:54 tarnish her name, you know, and like make it look like she has Yeah. issues with

31:00 substances. Yeah. So, the next and possibly the most consequential aspect of their in investigation came in Alex's casual discussions with the maid, Maria. At the time of Sunny's incident, both Alex and Maria remembered seeing Klouse regularly in possession of a small black leather bag, which he used to carry his own medications.

31:21 Oh. Alex became absolutely convinced that the bag had something to do with his mother's coma now, and he was determined to find out what was in that bag. But knowing that he might need some help, Richard Q suggested that Alex not search the house alone. So he hired a private detective and a locksmith to accompany him as he searched the house. So one afternoon, a few months after Sunny had been transferred to New York for care, Alex and the other two private detectives searched the entire house in Rhode Island and they found nothing out of the ordinary. But when they came to Klaus's room, because remember they had separate bedrooms, they discovered that the closet where the housekeeper Maria said she'd seen the black bag, that closet was locked. Oh.

32:07 So, at Alex's direction, and he has every right in the world because this is his house. Yeah.

32:11 The locksmith broke the lock and inside the closet, they found the black bag. What's in the black bag?

32:17 At the time, it didn't occur to Alex or the private detective that they should photograph the bag as they found it or that they could have dusted it for fingerprints or anything like that. They just wanted to look inside and find out what was in there.

32:29 I mean, private detective. Yeah, like Alex, I get not thinking of that. private detector.

32:36 There's two private detectives, too. But Alex took the bag to Richard Q and at his office, they opened the bag and they found several bottles of pills, mostly sedatives, a used syringe, and a bottle of insulin.

32:49 Ding, ding, ding. Weird. So, even though Sunny's coma had obviously been caused by an insulin overdose, Richard Q still didn't think that there was enough evidence to suggest that a crime had been committed. So I think I mean you like to us it's like he literally has everything that you would think caused that but you do need a lot.

33:08 Well it's like the way it was found all this kind of stuff. It could get a little hairy.

33:11 Yeah. It's shaky. Yeah. Exactly. So he believed that the police would probably declined to investigate and also you have to remember these are connected people like in high society.

33:20 Yeah. Exactly. So instead he sent the contents of the bag to the family's doctor who immediately noticed that the needle appeared to have been used. Oh.

33:30 So, based on his suspicions, the doctor sent the needle out to be tested and the results showed that it had contained insulin at one point.

33:36 Oh, [ __ ] But as far as the family doctor knew, Klouse nor Sunny had ever been prescribed insulin, so neither of them would have a need for it to be in their possession.

33:46 Huh. So, given the result of the test, the doctor brought his suspicions back to Alex and the family attorney and said either they could go to the police at this point or he was going to.

33:55 Good for him. He's like [ __ ] weird. Exactly. So, a few days later, Alex and Richard took everything that they knew to the Rhode Island State Police and they handed over the black bag and its contents. They gave the detective the entire backstory on Klaus and Sunny's entire relationship leading up to her coma, including the fact that this was not the first time that she had mysteriously slipped into a coma.

34:16 With high insulin levels. With high insulin levels. Exactly. And based on the evidence he'd been given, Detective Jack Reese started speaking to the other members of the family, including Klouse, who was very cy, he said.

34:28 Ree said, "There was a lot of inconsistent statements, and the more we got into it, the more they pointed toward Klouse."

34:34 Ooh. So, the first thing that struck him as strange was the way that Sunny had been found on the bathroom floor. According to the paramedics, her head was positioned under the toilet. There was that blood on her face, and like I said, her night gown was pulled around her waist. And so it was kind of it looked like she had been placed there, not that she had fallen right there.

34:53 Yeah. So feeling that Sunny's position on the bathroom floor was one of the keys to understanding everything, Reese actually enlisted the help of his wife who was right around Sunny's height and weight. And they used their own bathroom as like kind of an informal crime lab to to test these things out.

35:10 Wow. So over and over they went through various scenarios that could have led to Sunny landing in that position and none of them resulted in Reese's wife landing the way that Sunny

35:20 under the toilet. Yeah, like head under the toilet seat. But then to test another hypothesis of his, Jack carried his wife into the bathroom and slowly let her slip out of his arms and onto the floor. And when he did that, not only did she land on the floor in the exact position that Sunny had, but as she slipped from his arms, her night gown got hung up on his arm and it bunched around her waist.

35:45 Wow. So, holy [ __ ] Interesting. That is very interesting. I just love like that kind of detective work when they like bring it home.

35:53 They had to go like really down deep in it. Yeah. So given everything that they learned, Ree was pretty confident that it was time to have a formal interview with Klouse. But he also didn't want to give Klouse any advanced notice to like get answers ready or anything like that or craft a story. So he surprised him outside of his Manhattan office and brought him in for an interview.

36:13 Oh damn. For the most part, his answers to the questions were to be expected. He maintained that he didn't know how Sunny landed in a coma. He did confirm that he and Alexander Isles had been having an affair for the last 2 years. So he was honest about that. So at that point in the interview like was pretty standard. Nothing nothing big was popping out. And at the time Klaus was unaware though that Sunny's son Alex had found the black bag of medication at Clarendon Court and was also unaware that the family lawyer had been investigating him. So when Ree off-handedly asked if Sunny would have any reason to use insulin, Klaus rep replied, "By god, that's the last thing she would need."

36:53 Oh, it's like the lime in your bag of medications. Yeah. So, at now at this point, he tipped them off to the fact that he was being investigated and Reese was pretty confident that Klaus was going to go back to Rhode Island to go get his black bag. So, he quickly filed a request for a search warrant for Clarendon Court. And a few days later, state police met Klouse in the house in Newport. Before sitting him down for the second time, Ree participated in the search of this home, which is literally a mansion. So, it was like intense. Yeah.

37:26 So, they're listed at the house since fell into a coma. So, the bedroom closet was still locked, just like Alex and the locksmith had left it when they found the bag. Two, on a pad on Klaus's desk in the bedroom, there was a note in his writing that simply said black box. Ooh. And three, during the search of the closet, investigators found a black metal lock box where Klaus was known to keep his bag of medications.

37:54 Oh. So, while technicians and troopers continued the search of the house, Jack Ree sat down with Klaus for another interview, and that's when he brought up the bag of medications. Now, right after the question was ra uh was raised, Klaus excused himself very abruptly just for a moment and then returned a few minutes later when the interview was over, Reese went into his bedroom, Claus's bedroom, and found that the note on the pad was now gone and that the closet had been relocked.

38:24 Oh [ __ ] He said, "We surmised that he hadn't found the black bag and was probably a little concerned that he may have misplaced it."

38:30 Oh wow. So based on his possession of the insulin and the used needle and the statements from friends about his affair with Alexander Isles and the ultimatum that she'd given him, Jack Reese was like, "Yeah, I think Klaus Von Bulo probably had the means and motive to kill his own wife."

38:46 Yeah. So in early 1981, Ree took everything he had to the Newport County District Attorney who quickly convened a grand jury to review the evidence. And a week later, Klaus Fonulo was indicted on two counts of attempted murder. Damn.

39:01 Cuz remember, Sunny's literally in a coma during all of this. Yeah. Like she's still alive, so they can't get murder.

39:08 So on July 31st, 1981, Klaus was arraigned in a District Court of Providence, Rhode Island on two charges of attempted murder. One for the attempt on Sunny's life in 1979 and then the most recent one. He pleaded not guilty to both charges. And in a statement to the press, his lawyer, John Sheen, said Klouse was devastated by the accusation and the children's belief that he tried to kill their mother. He told reporters, "I can't conceive of a doctor saying with reasonable certainty what happened to cause the coma." Like, I think that's literally a doctor's entire job, babe. I It's like, isn't this is this the attorney being like, "Yeah, I can't even [ __ ] fathom that." Like, well, that's not for you to fathom, so don't worry.

39:47 But it's also pretty pretty fathomable. Like, babe, that's literally his job. Yeah, it's literally why he went to medical school.

39:54 I can't imagine how he would know this medical thing. I can't conceive of it. Like, okay. Yeah.

39:59 I'm like, have you heard of medical tests? Like, he's a doctor. But he insisted that whatever the reason was, and that Sunny had slipped into a coma, it had nothing to do with Klouse.

40:08 No. And in their own statement to the press, Sunny's two children, Alex and Allah, told reporters, "We feel very strongly that he tried twice to murder our mother. We believe that he deprived her of life as we now know." Why do I keep saying that? as we know it.

40:21 As we know it, deprived her of many years of happiness. You're like, I really want now to be a

40:26 I know when I think when I see no, I just want to say now, too. So, as far as the prosecution was concerned, the case was pretty straightforward and it was just a matter of greed because of, like I said, if Klaus was to divorce Sunny, he was going to be written out of her will. He would have lost access to the $15 million that he felt he was entitled to. But if she died, he would have received $5 million immediately and the rest would have been placed into a trust fund and he would have been able to access that after a period of a few years.

40:55 So basically they were saying that faced with losing either his relationship with Alexander Isles or access to Sunny's fortune, he decided to kill his wife so that he didn't have to give up either.

41:05 Wow. He could keep his affair and get all the money. Have his cake and eat it too.

41:09 Exactly. So within days of the indictment, Klaus Von Bulo's criminal team was already planning their defense strategy that not only refuted the prosecution's charge of attempted murder, but also then pinned responsibility for the coma on Sunny herself.

41:24 Wow. Which is like, that's nice. Cool. Real shitty, classy. Yeah, it's hella. Yeah. So, in an interview with the press, one of his lawyers, Harold Faringer, told reporters, "We're not trying to prove Sunny deliberately tried to kill herself those two times a year apart, but she was so very sick and reacted so badly to so many foods and drugs that whatever happened was clearly her own fault."

41:48 Nice. Wow. Nice. Wow. And they're like, and since she's not here to defend herself, seems like we can just close this book, right?

41:55 Yeah. We'll just [ __ ] all over. And to prove his claim, Finger said there was an incident a few weeks before Sunny fell into the coma the second time where she went to the emergency room after fearing that she had taken too much aspirin. He said that may have been a suicide attempt

42:12 or just a [ __ ] I'm like, I don't think that she would have tried to end her life by taking aspirin. No. Like, and probably not.

42:19 Also, why would she then go to the the ER, you know? Exactly. Like, okay. Yeah. So by the time the trial started on February 1st, 1982, obviously the story was plastered across the front pages of like every newspaper from one side of the country to the other and everybody had their own opinions on whether or not Klaus was guilty. Some news outlets maintained an objective even tone. But a lot of people didn't really have that much trouble accepting that Klouse probably tried to kill his wife for money.

42:47 Damn. I mean, it's a tale as old as time. It is. It's true. But what was surprising for people, especially outside of Newport, was the composition of the jury because most people knew Newport to be full of very, very wealthy people who lived in town. So, it came as a surprise when the jury actually turned out to be made up of a lot of middle-class residents. Actually, people were like, "Wait, middle class people live in Newport?"

43:09 What? So, prosecutor Steven Fametti asked rhetorically in an interview, "Where are you going to get a jury of his peers? It's almost impossible to get 12 people with his socio socioeconomic background.

43:20 Which is valid, but honestly, you probably could find them in Newport. I know that's true.

43:25 So, despite the evidence against Klouse, the prosecution had no illusions that it was going to be quick or an easy trial. Steven said, "I thought it was an extremely difficult case, primarily because it was a circumstantial evidence case, meaning there was no eyewitnesses to the alleged criminal conduct. There was so much medical testimony which I wasn't sure I was ever going to be able to tie together in order to establish proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

43:49 Love that he's like I did not know if I can do my job here. Yeah, pretty much. I mean, it's a tough one.

43:54 So, in their case to the jury, the prosecution did their best. They presented multiple medical experts who explained that the only way for Sunny's insulin level to be that high would have had to have been for somebody to inject her with insulin.

44:06 Yeah. Which is Yeah. I mean, you all you have to do is say what a normal one normal insulin level is and then say what hers was.

44:13 Yeah. And that's pretty compelling. I would say it was compelling to me when I first read this.

44:18 Yeah. Now, when one of the doctors was asked directly whether he thought foul play was involved in Sunny's condition, he replied that he believed the coma was caused by the surreptitious administration of insulin, aka like overdose of insulin.

44:45 And her own physician testified that she was in very good health and as far as he knew, she again had no need for insulin. Yeah.

44:52 And he also testified that to his knowledge and contrary to rumors that were believed to be spread by Klaus himself, Sunny didn't have any kind of drinking problem or any problem with drugs.

45:02 And that's her doctor test. That's her literal doctor. Like that's big. So the most critical testimony came from the maid. It's like a game of clue.

45:10 Yeah. Maria Shallheimer or Hammer who told the jury about her previous experience with Klouse when she said he refused to help his wife and then she went into the coma that first time in 1979. So both Maria and Sunny's son, Alex, testified that after Sunny's first coma, that's when they started seeing Klaus with that black bag of medications, which they now knew contained medications, including insulin.

45:33 Damn. So, the biggest blow to Klaus Vonulo's claims of innocence came a little over two weeks into the trial when Alexandra Isles was called to testify. Uh

45:43 oh. She confirmed that yes, she had given Klaus an an ultimatum because she didn't want to be involved in an extrammarital affair anymore. And she said at no point did she encourage he do anything other than divorce his wife. And when she learned that he was under investigation for attempted murder, she told the court, "I thought it was a pack of nonsense." But then when the prosecutor asked her whether she still thought it was nonsense, she looked away and then replied, "I don't know."

46:09 Whoa. And when the prosecutor asked her whether or not she was still in love with Klouse, she said, "I don't know."

46:15 Whoa. So, it was very clear that her feelings had shifted in a big way. Hearing what was going on,

46:20 and that's going to hit with a jury after it is. So, when the prosecution rested their case, obviously, the defense took over for what would be a pretty short presentation. In his opening statement, Sheen told the jury, "What happened to Sunny was not anyone's fault but her own, and that sad fact will emerge in this case if the truth is to prevail." I would like I'd be a little pissed off at this.

46:41 That's a dick move. It really is. It just is. I know it's his job, but I'm like, damn, you sound like an [ __ ]

46:45 Yeah. I would not want to I would not want to find him innocent just because of that statement.

46:51 Shitty statement like it's their own fault. That's really wrong of me, but I feel that way.

46:56 But like, don't put me on this jury. Yeah. Don't. So that if you're mean, don't put me on a jury.

47:01 Yeah. Maybe that's how I could get out of jury duty. Yeah. You're like, I'll immediately think that if you're mean, I'll I'll just go the other way. I'll convict your client. They're like, okay, you can go now, miss. So, I'll convict your client. Jesus Christ. So, the defense alleged that Sunny was a psychologically disturbed woman, they said, who took insulin in a reckless attempt to lose weight. Whoa. They also argued that if it appeared that Klouse was responsible for his wife's condition, that was because her family had gone out of their way to make it seem that way.

47:34 Oh [ __ ] we're pulling the family in now. Yeah. And the uh she in there even called into question the discovery of the black bag and went as far as to suggest that Alex had planted it himself in order to frame his stepfather and make sure he was cut out of the will.

47:48 Team Alex. Absolutely. Because No, that's so [ __ ] I don't believe that. If I know Alex, which I don't at all. Never even seen a picture of him. Literally, I don't even know if he's real.

47:59 He is real, but team Alex. If I know Alex, he didn't do that. I'm like, come on. That's really plant it.

48:06 I don't think so. No. So, after almost two months of testimony and evidence, the case went to the jury for deliberation in mid-March. And in his closing statement, Harold Faringer made his case one final time. He said, "I don't know what happened here. I don't know if anybody ever will." Then, as if to undermine what he just said, he basically went over and whispered to the jury "Suicide." Like, what a douchebag. Is he a 12-year-old boy?

48:31 I'm fully confident. The most insane behavior I've ever heard. He's just like I feel like it was like suicide.

48:39 Like, it's just what? It's like a performance. It's like he did he tiptoe over there probably and like like twiddling his mustache like a villain.

48:47 What? And like just so you know, like I don't know what could have happened. Yeah, I do.

48:52 Mind you, this woman is laying in a coma. That's like what is wrong with you? And she has she's a mother to three children and you're like you you literally just said you don't know what happened, but then you're going to go suicide.

49:02 That's circus behavior. You're a douchebag. That's circus behavior. Yeah. Ridiculous.

49:06 That's dumb as hell. The case may have all been circumstantial, but in the end, the jury could not deny that all of the evidence did point to Klouse. So after deliberating for 6 days, they returned to the court and they found Claus Vonulo guilty on two counts of attempted murder and the judge sentenced him to 30 years in prison.

49:24 Damn. Now, everybody was actually very shocked by this because if we know anything, wealthy people do get away with a lot of things often, especially back then.

49:32 Yeah. But Klaus Vonulo had no intention of staying locked up. And within a few days of the verdict, he had already placed a call to Harvard law professor Alan Dersuitz. By that time, Durowitz had built a reputation as a very capable lawyer, representing clients like Patty Hurst, uh, adult film star Harry Rees, and he represented people in cases where the odds of an acquitt were slim. In the years after the Vonulo case, he actually would go on to become a pretty controversial figure. He represented Mike Tyson, OJ Simpson, Jim Baker, Donald Trump, and Jeffrey Epstein. And I'm just going to leave that right there.

50:07 And I'm going to leave the room. Bye. After speaking with Klouse, Ellen. Yeah, [ __ ] hell.

50:14 Like I said, controversial. Gross. After I'm gonna leave it there. After speaking with Klouse and reviewing the evidence used to convict him, Duruititz actually agreed to take on the case.

50:24 Shocked. Later, he said, "I hadn't followed the case very closely. I knew he'd been convicted. Like most people reading the newspaper, sounded to me like the evidence was convincing."

50:32 Wow, Alan. But from his office at Harvard, he assembled a legal team, mostly made up of his law students, and they broke up into smaller teams, each focusing on specific pieces of the prosecution's case. He said, "First meeting, I knew this case was going to turn on those Q notes." Meaning Richard Q.

50:47 Ah, so when the district attorney took the case to trial, nobody had actually bothered to subpoena Richard Q's notes.

50:54 That's kind of wild. It is a little wild. Even though he had been involved in the investigation with the family even before they had gone to the police. Yeah, that was a choice.

51:02 Yeah, it really was. So, Duruititz believed that the notes must have had some kind of information vital to clearing Klaus's name, but now Richard Q was refusing to hand them over and he cited the previous trial judge's orders not to surrender them. So, he was doing what he believed was right.

51:18 Judge tells me not to. I'm not. But Duruitz was like, "Okay, now I definitely have to get those."

51:22 Yeah. That just made them so much more enticing. Yeah. Exactly. So he worked on subpoening them while another team evaluated the medical evidence used in the trial. According to the prosecution, originally the lab test showed that Sunonny's insulin level was 216 when she arrived at the hospital. But it turned out while one test did show 216, the lab had actually run three additional tests and the results of those tests varied between zero and 350.

51:50 I'm I'm sorry, what? Zero and 3. None insulin and all the insulin. It's That's actually exactly what it translates into. None insulin and all the insulin.

52:02 How is that? None insulin. What medical test is that? Uh beats me. What? I don't know. I don't know a lot about medical tests, but those seem

52:13 inconclusive. That seems I would go wildly I would go ahead and stamp inconclusive across that. Maybe retest. That's That's

52:24 I don't know what to say about that. I didn't see that coming. I didn't either. None.

52:30 I don't think either. No idea. So, Dersowitz's team questioned the reliability of those tests. Now,

52:37 I mean, I can't I can't blame them on that one. And then now they were also questioning the test conducted on the syringe.

52:43 Which remember, they were like, "Oh, yeah, it's been used and it definitely was used with uh insulin." So they decided to test the lab by sending several just random needles for tests. And within a few weeks, the results came back showing several false positives, which suggested that if they had been wrong in Dersawitz's test, they also could have been wrong when they were tested originally in Claus's case.

53:08 Sloppy as hell. It gets worse. Finally, Durowitz turns his attention to the biggest piece of evidence, the black bag itself. As a resident of Clarendon Court, like I said, Alex was within his rights to search the house and even to hire a locksmith to open Klaus's closet. He was also within his rights when he handed over the bag to Richard Q. But Durich would later argue that even though Alex was in his rights, Jack Ree and the other investigators had no legal right to accept the bag as evidence without a warrant or with Klaus's consent. And in doing so, they had violated his constitutional rights. How did no one catch that?

53:46 Yeah, the chain of custody was a little [ __ ] up here. Two like private detectives on this thing and they weren't like, "Hey, this is getting a little sloppy with the chain of evidence here."

53:56 Yeah. Like no one called that out and was like, "We could [ __ ] this whole thing up."

54:00 I don't know if maybe like chain of custody became bigger later, but it's like they should know that that could be a potential issue,

54:06 you would think. And they should have at least accounted for that. I mean, this is like this is like a smoking gun situation. So, it's like that's your biggest piece of evidence. You don't want to risk that being thrown out. So, you I would think you would go above and beyond to be like, let's just make sure we are doing all the things to make sure that every tea is crossed, I is dotted, and we don't [ __ ] this up so this gets thrown out.

54:30 Yeah. Well, they did cuz that's not like Alex's No, it's not Alex's fault. He thought he was calling the right I mean, he's like a regular citizen calling.

54:38 He did call the right the detectives, you know. Damn. So in April 1984, Alan Dersowitz presented Klaus Vonulo's appeal to the Supreme Court of Rhode Island. By that time, he narrowed his appeal to just two areas. One, he argued that the black bag of medication should never have been admitted into evidence in the first place because it had been obtained through questionable means.

54:59 [ __ ] and two that the notes taken by attorney Richard Q should have been admitted in the previous trial since they were detailed as a critical part of the investigation before the proper authorities became involved. Based on those two things, he argued that Claus should be granted a new trial. After reviewing the evidence, hearing the testimony, the Supreme Court sided with his team. They agreed the black bag, which was the motivation for the arrest in the first place, had been obtained illegally and should have been deemed inadmissible at trial. And honestly, if that was deemed inadmissible at trial,

55:34 who knows if they would have been convicted. So now he was entitled to a brand new trial.

55:39 [ __ ] And in the spring of 1984, the prosecution and defense prepared for that new trial, this time without the black bag and evidence.

55:47 Oh no, that's huge. That's Yeah. Now, just as importantly, attorney, the family attorney, Richard Q, had been ordered to hand over his notes from his initial meetings with Sunny's first two children. In the notes were Alex's mention of the black bag, and in subsequent notes, Q cataloged the contents of the bag before handing it over to the state police. Missing from that list of contents that he originally wrote down was the vial of insulin, meaning that the notes directly contradicted the testimony given at the previous trial by the housekeeper who stated that she saw insulin in the bag.

56:25 And the defense said if she saw insulin among the other medications, then surely it should have been on Richard Q's list.

56:33 Oh no. So, the omission of the insulin on that list turned out to be one of the most significant aspects of the defense. And

56:40 I can't imagine being on the jury and hearing that. I'd be like, you're here. Yeah.

56:44 The black bag had been a critical piece of evidence during the first trial, but now the prosecution's case was that much weaker without it. And in its absence, they were hoping that testimony from the maid, Maria Shreheimr, would now be sufficient enough to establish that the insulin was in Klaus's possession. But now that the notes basically undermined the credibility of that testimony, a second conviction was pretty unlikely at this point.

57:10 Oh no. So prosecutor Steven there pinned his hopes Steven uh Steven F pinned his hopes mostly on the testimony of Alexander Isles whose relationship with Klouse ended long ago by that point at like at the time of the second trial. As she had in the trial before, she told the jury about the ultimatum that she gave Klouse, but this time she heavily implied that Klouse had done something to cause Sunny's first coma.

57:38 She said under oath, he said the next day when she was unconscious, he watched her knowing she was in a bad way. And finally, when she was on the point of dying, he said he couldn't go through with it and he called an ambulance and saved her life.

57:51 Which does check with what the maid like observed. She was saying like he wasn't helping her and she was being like something needs to be done here

58:01 and like wouldn't let her do anything. But also it looks a little weird that Alexander's now like and I'm not saying she's lying but you also sitting on that jury have to take into account that she didn't say that the first time around they've broken up. There's bad blood and now she's saying that.

58:16 But you and then you also have to flip it and say are you lying under oath though?

58:19 Exactly. Like who knows? cuz if you get caught lying like that under oath, you're you're [ __ ]

58:25 Both of us are like, you're [ __ ] Perj. So, similarly, she told the judge that prior to the trial in 1981, Klaus begged her not to testify. And she said under oath that he said, "If you testify that we were more than friends, you'll be putting nails in my coffin."

58:42 Whoa. Yeah. And remember that first time she was on the stand, she was in a relationship with him. She was still and she was very

58:49 so maybe she didn't reveal that cuz that was told to her in confidence by someone she's in a relationship

58:55 somebody she loved and also she was very like pretty cy she just said I don't know the book

59:01 yeah so on June 7th 1985 both sides made their final arguments to the jury with the prosecution alleging that Klouse had attempted to kill Sunny for the inheritance and the defense arguing that Sunny's coma was a result of her own actions. After just a few days of deliberation, the jury returned and they found Klaus Fon Bulo not guilty of attempted murder. So now that he was acquitted of attempted murder charges, he was never going to face criminal charges for what happened to Sunny. But that didn't mean that he was free of all potential consequences.

59:33 Civil suit. Civil suit. You know, you always know in these cases a civil suit's coming. A month after he was acquitted, Alex and Allah filed a civil suit against Klouse for $56 million.

59:45 I can't blame them. And it was in a complaint that the press described as mirroring the charges raised by Rhode Island prosecutors. So, they're just saying the same things. In addition to the $56 million in damages, the suit sought to invalidate his claim to any part of Sunny's fortune and required him to return any money or property that he had received from the estate since Sunny first fell into a coma in 1979.

1:00:09 So, that's a big deal. Yeah. Unfortunately, the civil suit was unsuccessful for them, and there wasn't a lot else they could do. But rather than pursue additional legal challenges, they decided to take a different approach. And this is intense.

1:00:24 They convinced their grandmother to remove their stepsister from her will. Whoa.

1:00:31 So, as the only member of the family to have supported Klouse, they felt that Kosima betrayed their mother and wasn't deserving of any money. So that both sides argued back and forth for years until late 1987 when Klouse finally agreed to drop any claim he had to Sunny's money on the condition that Kosima be written back into the will because she was written out at one point.

1:00:53 Whoa. And both parties agreed. Whoa. So he gave up his claim so that his daughter

1:00:58 could get her could get hers. Whoa. Yeah. In the years that followed, he kept a pretty low profile. Even though he'd been acquitted, the charges against him brought a whole bunch of scandal and it tarnished his reputation and he was basically outsty and Sunny were officially divorced and he just moved back to London where he lived until he died in 2019.

1:01:23 Wow. Unfortunately, Sunny von Bulo remained in a coma in the nursing home in Manhattan.

1:01:28 Oh god, I couldn't I for some reason my brain was saying like she had died. Oh, no. That's why I I was trying to say like a couple times like remember she's still lying in a coma.

1:01:37 Getting that like she is still in a coma at that point. She remained in a coma for 28 years.

1:01:44 Holy [ __ ] Until she died at 77 from cardiac arrest on December 6th, 2008. 28 years.

1:01:54 Can you imagine how utterly horrific that for her family? No. Not even for a millisecond to be

1:02:02 waiting for someone to wake up and still wake up. Strangely like grieving at the same time for like decades at that point.

1:02:11 Yeah, that's so hard. Yeah, it's a tragic story. It's a really really tragic story.

1:02:17 You never know what happened. Mhm. Like you can have ideas about what happened but you don't actually know what happened here. It's awful that cuz we don't know what happened to you and I but it's like it's awful that like people who were closer to it

1:02:30 feel like they do know feel like they probably do know and that justice wasn't sought out or people who were close to it feel like they do know and that justice wasn't even though like I think like Kosima probably feels like her dad got [ __ ] in all of this

1:02:45 and then Allah and Alex feel like their mother like was lost in all of this and that justice wasn't served for who they believe did this

1:02:53 exactly But the but we don't know. And how sad is that too that like the sibling relationship was obviously fractured.

1:03:00 Yeah. You know, and and the family in general. Exactly. Holy [ __ ] That's a gnarly gnarly story. And

1:03:09 wow. Like that's that's a tragic family tale right there. Cuz it like trickled down to the kids, too.

1:03:16 Yeah. Like multiple generations. And for Sunny to be in a coma for that many years, like 28 years. That's my entire life. Almost.

1:03:28 Holy [ __ ] That's literally almost my entire life. That's unbelievable. I just like think of everything I've done in my life and I'm like And she was just laying in a coma in Manhattan for

1:03:37 And we still don't know so much about like coma states and like what people experience in them and what they don't. new stuff and I feel like everybody's differenti it's just like holy [ __ ]

1:03:57 that's a lot damn I feel really bad I feel really bad for the kids I do too all of them

1:04:05 cuz it's none of them obviously have anything to do with the what occurred it's just like they had to eat up the

1:04:13 aftermath of it And they were just trying to defend their parent. Yeah. You know, both of them,

1:04:20 right? Or all three of them. Yeah. No, it's it's really really it's tragic. Yeah. That's really sad. Holy [ __ ]

1:04:25 High society, man. Damn. That was really high society. It was honestly one of the most high society we've ever gone.

1:04:31 That really was like holy [ __ ] Well, we have to end on a fun fact. We do. And Mikey found one. So, we'll credit Mikey for this one.

1:04:37 That's also high society. Yeah, it's pretty high society. Allegedly, according to Cosmopolitan. Allegedly. And according to Cosmopolitan,

1:04:46 yes, Kim Kardashian has a glam clause in her will and it states that if she is ever in a position where she cannot get ready herself, cannot communicate, or is unconscious, somebody has to make sure her hair, nails, and makeup are all perfect. And when I do my will, I will be adding that to mine. And that's a fact. I don't know what to say about that.

1:05:09 I'm obsessed. I literally don't know what to say about that. I am obsessed with that. I

1:05:15 it kind of reminds me of our nanny like she when she was in her nursing home her hair and her nails and her makeup were dead.

1:05:22 And I respect that. It's true. I respect that. I'm just thinking of you comparing my nanny to get I'm like those are two different ladies.

1:05:34 Two very different ladies. Nanny is wherever she is right now going are you [ __ ] kidding me?

1:05:38 No, but I'm I'm putting respect on that. The fact that she was done, those nails were did, that hair was perfect, and her skin and and makeup were flawless.

1:05:48 That's true. I remember thinking she was like the most beautiful woman. She She was a gorgeous lady.

1:05:53 She was She was Leverne. Lever. Love that. Love that lady. But yeah, that's your fun fun alleged fact.

1:06:00 Allegedly. According to Cosmo, it's your fun reporting. Yeah. According to Cosmo,

1:06:05 who knows? They said it. Would you put that in your will? No. No. Would you adhere to it in my will?

1:06:13 Yeah. Good. Of course. I always listen to everybody's wills. Good. You know, I'm not here to try to tell people what to do with their wills.

1:06:19 Would you judge me? No. Really? You can do whatever the [ __ ] you want with your will.

1:06:22 Hell yeah. I'm going to I haven't written my will yet, but I'm going to. I really

1:06:26 judge what's important to people, you know? No. And being a 10 is important to me.

1:06:32 There you go. Yeah. Or trying at least. Being real cozy is important to me. So, I don't want people judging me.

1:06:37 Oh, I'd like to be cozy. Cozy and beautiful. That's my goal always. Be a 10. Be in a cozy 10.

1:06:45 And with that, we leave you. We hope you keep listening, please. And we hope you keep it weird,

1:06:51 but not so weird that you don't add whatever the [ __ ] you want to your will, baby. It's yours.

1:06:56 Be a cozy 10. No one's going to judge you. Nope. Me either. Nope. Nope. Nope.

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "Episode 745: The Mysterious Case of Sunny von Bulow"?

Elena (Host), Ash (Host).

What is "Episode 745: The Mysterious Case of Sunny von Bulow" about?

The discussion centers around the intriguing case of Sunny von Bulow, exploring the complexities of her mysterious hospitalization and the legal battles that ensued. The hosts also share their personal experiences, thoughts on recent events, and engage in light-hearted banter as they navigate their recording session.

What is mentioned in this Morbid | Podcast episode?

31 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Klaus von Bulo, Martha Sunny Crawford, Clarendon Court, The Butcher Legacy, Newport Hospital, Alfred von Aberg. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "Episode 745: The Mysterious Case of Sunny von Bulow"?

The episode runs 1 h 9 min; the transcript is about 13,713 words in 352 timestamped sections.

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