Trump was 'vastly more involved' with Epstein than the Clintons: Fmr. Clinton WH official

What this episode is about

The piece centers on expanding allegations about involvement with Epstein, including reactions from Hillary and Bill Clinton, and Congressman Nancy Mace’s deposition readout, with Clinton and his allies defending their positions and acknowledging possible imperfect recall. It highlights partisan responses, anticipated video releases, and differing memories of past interactions related to Epstein and associated funding.

Key takeaways

• Clinton-era disclosures collide with Epstein scrutiny, highlighting forensic memory gaps and political theater alike.
• Bill Clinton's oath risk is lower stakes than 1998, yet public memory still fixates on 'what is the meaning of is'.
• Epstein files expose selective accountability: presidents under oath vs. current executive remain the real inconsistency.
• Democrats frame inquiry as survivor justice; Republicans weaponize postponement and privacy to stall transparency.
• Public deposition theater may shape norms: when the video drops, perception could eclipse the actual testimony.

Who speaks in this episode?

• Matt (Guest) · 1 min speaking
• Ellie · 3 min speaking
• Joyce (Guest) · 2 min speaking

What is discussed, and when

1. 0:00 – 3:00: Bill and Hillary Clinton, Jeffrey Epstein, Hillary Clinton, Epstein file
2. 3:00 – 6:00: Bill and Hillary Clinton, Jeffrey Epstein, Epstein file, survivors
3. 6:00 – 9:00: Jeffrey Epstein, Donald Trump, Epstein file, Justice Department
4. 9:00 – 11:53: Bill and Hillary Clinton, Hillary Clinton, Congresswoman Lauren Boebert, Jeffrey Epstein

Notable quotes from "Trump was 'vastly more involved' with Epstein than the Clintons: Fmr. Clinton WH official"

• Ellie, first of all, have we heard anything from Hillary Clinton's camp about thatnd what more did we hear from the former president on that statement that was just.

  about Hillary Clinton · at 0:01

• BUT THAT WHAT HE DOES REMEMBER CLEARLY, AND YOU READ THIS IN YOUR OPENING REMARKS, TOO, HE DOESN'T REMEMBER SEEING ANYTHING THAT REEKED OF THE SEX TRAFFICKING AND TURN IT IN…

  about Bill and Hillary Clinton · at 2:00

• And that comes through the truth regardless of who is summoned upon to testify.

  about Truth · at 3:23

• He was fighting for his political survival.

  about political survival · at 4:53

• And as Joyce noted, the president of the United States, the sitting president is in the Epstein files more than 5,000 times and is credibly accused of THINGS AND THIS COMMITTEE IS NOT LOOKING AT ANY OF THEM.

  about Epstein file · at 5:49

• Donald Trump needs to come before this committee and we will not stop fighting until we get the truth and there's accountability and justice for the survivors.

  about Donald Trump · at 6:42

• That some of the Republicans in the Senate had picked up this cry for the full release of the Epstein files by the Justice DEPARTMENT THAT CONGRESS CALLED FOR IT WHEN IT PASSED THE UPSTEIN FILES TRANSPARENCY ACT.

  about Justice Department · at 8:04

• AND HERE IS BOBERT BEING ASKED ABOUT WHAT YOU'RE SEEING ON YOUR SCREEN RIGHT NOW.

  about Congresswoman Lauren Boebert · at 9:15

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

• Bill and Hillary Clinton — Person · Core topic (referenced witness) · 14 mentions · first at 0:02
  The episode centers on Bill Clinton's private deposition related to Jeffrey Epstein and what he may know from past contact. Discussion focuses on his statements, credibility, and what questions Congress should ask him under oath.
• Jeffrey Epstein — Person · Core topic (subject of inquiry) · 10 mentions · first at 1:36
  Jeffrey Epstein's sex trafficking crimes and how he 'got away with it' are the underlying subject of the congressional fact-finding inquiry. The discussion focuses on what witnesses (including the Clintons and Trump) may know about his activities.
  But I think the questions are similar it's who what when where why and how this is a fact-finding inquiry an effort to get to the bottom of what jeffrey epstein was doing and…
• Hillary Clinton — Person · Core topic (referenced witness) · 5 mentions · first at 0:01
  Hillary Clinton's deposition and the dispute with Representative Nancy Mace are used to frame the committee's approach and the politics of the inquiry. The transcript also contrasts her prior high-profile testimony (Benghazi) with the current closed-door process.
• Donald Trump — Person · Core topic (referenced target of inquiry) · 3 mentions · first at 6:42
  Speakers argue the investigation is incomplete without Donald Trump testifying and criticize the committee for not scrutinizing him despite claims he appears extensively in the Epstein files. His likely resistance to testifying is discussed.
• Nancy Mace — Person · Referenced lawmaker (committee participant) · 1 mention · first at 0:17
  Nancy Mace is portrayed as a key Republican questioner whose conduct and 'readout' are disputed by the Clinton camp. Her role is central to the episode's framing of partisan dynamics around the depositions.
  But in the meantime, we're hearing that readout from Mace.
• Congresswoman Lauren Boebert — Person · Referenced lawmaker (conduct controversy) · 2 mentions · first at 9:15
  Lauren Boebert is criticized for taking/releasing a photo from Hillary Clinton's deposition, framed as a rules violation and an example of partisan behavior. This supports the episode's theme about closed-door proceedings and political theater.
• Monica Lewinsky — Person · Referenced historical figure (comparison point) · 1 mention · first at 3:41
  Monica Lewinsky is referenced to compare Bill Clinton's 1998 deposition style and stakes with the current Epstein-related deposition. The clip underscores credibility, memory, and legalistic testimony.
  So, Matt, we have famously seen Bill Clinton under oath before in a deposition back in 1998, and that was when he was asked about his relationship with Monica Lewinsky.

Companies & orgs

• Justice Department — Organization · Referenced institution (records custodian) · 2 mentions · first at 8:11
  The Justice Department is discussed as the agency expected to release Epstein-related files under congressional pressure and a transparency law. Speakers criticize DOJ for missing documents and lack of forthcomingness.
• Clinton Global Initiative — Organization · Referenced organization (potential funding context) · 1 mention · first at 1:42
  The Clinton Global Initiative is mentioned as a possible locus of conversations or funding involving Jeffrey Epstein or Ghislaine Maxwell, which is used to question what Hillary Clinton could have known.
  And wasn't aware, for example, of funding that was being done or conversations around funding for the Clinton Global Initiative that might have been HAD WITH EPSTEIN OR MAXWELL.

Concepts & topics

• Epstein file — Concept · Core topic (evidence set / records) · 4 mentions · first at 2:56
  The 'Epstein files' are repeatedly cited as the documentary basis for subpoenas, testimony demands, and calls for public release. They are also used to argue that other figures (especially Donald Trump) should be questioned.
• survivors — Concept · Core topic (affected group) · 2 mentions · first at 3:18
  Survivors are invoked as the moral center of the inquiry, with the investigation framed as seeking justice for them. Their interests are tied to transparency and truthful testimony.
  Donald Trump needs to come before this committee and we will not stop fighting until we get the truth and there's accountability and justice for the survivors.
• Accountability — Concept · Core topic (normative goal) · 2 mentions · first at 6:47
  Accountability is presented as a key outcome sought through testimony and release of files, especially regarding powerful figures named in records. It is paired with 'truth' and 'justice for the survivors.'
  Donald Trump needs to come before this committee and we will not stop fighting until we get the truth and there's accountability and justice for the survivors.
• Congressional oversight — Concept · Core topic (process framing) · 1 mention · first at 2:29
  The episode frames the depositions as congressional oversight with a 'political twinge' rather than a purely prosecutorial investigation. It shapes discussion of legitimacy, public transparency, and scope of questioning.
  This is obviously congressional oversight that has a political twinge as opposed to how I might have conducted an investigation into Epstein as a prosecutor.
• Truth — Concept · Core topic (epistemic goal) · 1 mention · first at 6:44
  Truth is repeatedly framed as the mechanism for achieving justice and accountability, regardless of who is summoned to testify. It also underlies criticism of closed-door proceedings and missing documents.
• fact-finding inquiry — Concept · Core topic (stated purpose) · 1 mention · first at 2:46
  Describes the intended investigative posture: determining who/what/when/where/why/how regarding Epstein's crimes and impunity. It is linked to testimony under oath and justice for survivors.
  But I think the questions are similar it's who what when where why and how this is a fact-finding inquiry an effort to get to the bottom of what jeffrey epstein was doing and…
• Epstein Transparency Act — Concept · Referenced policy instrument · 1 mention
  The act is cited as the legal basis Congress used to call for full release of Epstein-related files by the Justice Department. It anchors the discussion about document release obligations and missing records.
• political survival — Concept · Referenced concept (stakes comparison) · 1 mention · first at 4:53
  Used to contrast the stakes of Bill Clinton's 1998 Lewinsky deposition with the current Epstein-related testimony, suggesting lower personal/political risk now.

Places & events

• Benghazi — Event · Referenced historical event (analogy) · 1 mention · first at 11:05
  Benghazi is referenced to recall Hillary Clinton's prior lengthy public testimony and to argue Republicans prefer closed-door settings now due to past political outcomes. It serves as a comparison for committee dynamics.
  This was after Benghazi, and she got the best of them, and they know it.

Full transcript with timestamps

0:01 Ellie, first of all, have we heard anything from Hillary Clinton's camp about thatnd what more did we hear from the former president on that statement that was just released a short time ago? Well, they're right. We will end up seeing the video. That's supposed to come. Democrats are hoping for in the next 24 hours. But in the meantime, we're hearing that readout from Mace. And then, yes, I have heard from the Clinton camp, a spokesperson for Clinton telling me in quite colorful language that Nancy MACE IS FULL OF BLANK, I WON'T USE THAT LANGUAGE AROUND NOON TODAY.

0:33 HE THEN GOES ON TO EXPLAIN WAS CLINTON APPALLED THAT CONGRESSWOMAN MACE WOULDN'T LET HER ANSWER A QUESTION ABOUT HER WORK AS A SENATOR AFTER THE MURDER OF THREE DEPOSITION VIDEO, BECAUSE THE QUESTION MACE WAS ASKED WAS ABOUT CLINTON RESPONDING WHEN REPUBLICANS ASKED HER.

1:10 I WANT TO SEE WHAT HAPPENED. I WANT TO SEE WHAT HAPPENED BECAUSE ALL OF US ARE GOING TO BE ABLE TO SEE FOR OURSELVES. AND FRANKLY, CHRIS, THE SAME IS GOING TO BE TRUE FOR BILL CLINTON AS DEPOSITION IS HAPPENING PRIVATELY BUT WILL LATER BE RELEASED. I THINK IN HIS STATEMENT HE MAKES THE POINT THAT HILLARY CLINTON SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN CALLED IN. I THINK MANY OF US AND DEMOCRATS ON THE COMMITTEE CERTAINLY WERE QUESTIONING WHAT insight Hillary Clinton might have, given the way that she has said she doesn't have a relationship with Epstein and wasn't aware, for example, of funding that was being done or conversations around funding for the Clinton Global Initiative that might have been HAD WITH EPSTEIN OR MAXWELL.

1:45 CLINTON WAS A U.S. SENATOR AT THE TIME AND NOT PART OF DOING THAT KIND OF BUSINESS. BUT THE OTHER THING THAT BILL CLINTON SAYS IN HIS DEPOSITION IS THAT HE WARNS MEMBERS THERE ARE THINGS THAT HE MIGHT NOT RECALL MORE THAN TWO DECADES AFTER THE FACT, HE SAYS HE'S GOING TO TRY TO STICK TO WHAT HE REMEMBERS. BUT THAT WHAT HE DOES REMEMBER CLEARLY, AND YOU READ THIS IN YOUR OPENING REMARKS, TOO, HE DOESN'T REMEMBER SEEING ANYTHING THAT REEKED OF THE SEX TRAFFICKING AND TURN IT IN GROSS CRIMES THAT EPSTEIN HIMSELF COMMITTED OR ELSE CLINTON SAYS HE WOULD HAVE TURNED EPSTEIN IN HIMSELF.

2:15 ALL RIGHT, JOYCE. WHEN COMPARED TO I THINK FOR HILLARY CLINTON THERE IS A LOT MORE BILL CLINTON CAN BE ASKED ABOUT. SO WHAT DO YOU THINK ARE THE LEGITIMATE QUESTIONS THAT HE MIGHT BE FACING today? You know, this is obviously congressional oversight that has a political twinge as opposed to how I might have conducted an investigation into Epstein as a prosecutor. But I think the questions are similar it's who what when where why and and how this is a fact-finding inquiry an effort to get to the bottom of what jeffrey epstein was doing and how he got away with it for so long and there's certainly some suggestion in the epstein files that bill clinton might be able to shed light on some of those questions so i think that they're fair game I think he, and he has said as much, is obligated to respond under oath.

3:09 The shame, as Ali's in your comments point out, is that it's not being done publicly, so we can all see it and understand for ourself what's going on, but this is at bottom an inquiry into getting justice for survivors. And that comes through the truth regardless of who is summoned upon to testify. You know, if Bill Clinton can testify, Others who show up in the files should testify, too, including the current president and his wife. So, Matt, we have famously seen Bill Clinton under oath before in a deposition back in 1998, and that was when he was asked about his relationship with Monica Lewinsky.

3:45 Here's that. The statement that there was no sex of any kind, in any manner, shape or form of President Clinton was a utterly false statement is that correct yeah it depends upon what the meaning of the word is yes if the if is means is and never has been that is not that's one thing if it means there is none that was IT WAS A COMPLETELY TRUE STATEMENT. AT THE TIME, BEYOND THE LATE- NIGHT TALK SHOW HOST WHO HAD A TALK SHOW HOST WHO HAD A FIELD DAY WITH THAT, SO DID A LOT OF LAWYERS AND THE AMERICAN PUBLIC. BUT I'M WONDERING WHEN YOU LOOK AT THAT COMPARED TO WHAT HE SAID IN HIS OPENING STATEMENT JUST A SHORT TIME AGO, YOU'LL OFTEN HEAR ME SAY THAT I DON'T RECALL.

4:39 THAT MIGHT BE UNSATISFYING BUT I'M NOT GOING TO SAY something I'm not sure of. This was all a long time ago. What are the stakes here for Bill Clinton? Well, they're a whole lot lower than they were in that testimony when he was present. He He was fighting for his political survival. And look, that was probably the lowest point of his presidency. I think he would certainly stipulate to that. And he was parsing IT IN AN INCREDIBLY LEGALISTIC AND LAWYERLY WAY. I DON'T THINK YOU'RE GOING TO SEE ANYTHING LIKE THAT TODAY.

5:13 I THINK HE'S GOING TO TESTIFY FULLY AND TRUTHFULLY, BUT THIS WAS, YOU KNOW, UP TO 20 YEARS ago, this contact that he had with Epstein. So he'll probably do his best. But I don't remember details of things happening 20 years ago and I'm younger than Bill Clinton is. So it probably is true that he's going to have a hard time recalling the kinds of details that the committee is looking for. But let me just say that all of this inquiry and all of this kind of pearl clutching that some of the Republicans are doing around Bill Clinton is a little hollow, given the fact that as you noted and as Joyce noted, the president of the United States, the sitting president is in the Epstein files more than 5,000 times and is credibly accused of THINGS AND THIS COMMITTEE IS NOT LOOKING AT ANY OF THEM.

6:04 SO, CONGRESSMAN, WE DID HEAR FROM VIRTUALLY EVERY DEMOCRATIC MEMBER HERE TODAY. AND EXACTLY TO MATT'S point that today's deposition, in their minds, sets a precedent. Here's what they said. We are now asking and demanding that President Trump officially come in and testify in front of the oversight committee. Let's be real, we're talking to the wrong president today. President Trump is the one who released has not released two and a half million files. This investigation will not be complete until we bring President Trump in to answer questions under oath.

6:42 Donald Trump needs to come before this committee and we will not stop fighting until we get the truth and there's accountability and justice for the survivors. Realistically, Congressman, where do you put the likelihood of Trump ever testifying about Jeffrey Epstein? I think it's highly unlikely that he would testify. He'll fight it all the way as a sitting president, even though it's, I think

7:18 which is many consider likely after the elections. I suspect there'll be renewed efforts to force the current president, Donald Trump, to testify. But you can be assured that he will use every legal avenue at his disposal all to decline that invitation. So I wouldn't bet on Donald Trump testifying any time during his presidency. Even if he doesn't testify, Joyce, there is still a lot of material out there TO SHARE FROM THE EPSTEIN FILES IN PARTICULAR SOME THINGS THAT PEOPLE WANT TO SEE FROM DOJ THAT MAY HAVE INVOLVED A VERY FOR A VERY YOUNG TEENAGE GIRL.

7:51 WHAT ARE THE CHANCES THAT VERY SPECIFIC THINGS THAT DEMOCRATS AND FRANKLY EVEN SOME REPUBLICANS ARE CALLING FOR MIGHT GET released. Where does all that stand? Well, there was reporting last night, Chris, that some of the Republicans in the Senate had picked up this cry for the full release of the Epstein files by the Justice DEPARTMENT THAT CONGRESS CALLED FOR IT WHEN IT PASSED THE UPSTEIN FILES TRANSPARENCY ACT. HOW SERIOUS THEY ARE REMAINS TO BE SEEN, BUT IT'S CLEAR THAT PUBLIC PRESSURE ON THIS ISSUE IS SUSTAINED.

8:24 IT'S NOT going anywhere. And it does seem to be animating the response by Republicans in Congress at this point. You know, the reality is that this will go as far as Congress pushes it. It's their law. They're the ones who are entitled to go to the White House and the Justice Department and demand the release of files that it's increasingly clear or missing. This is not a Justice Department that's been forthcoming with the courts. There's no reason that they should any longer have this presumption of legitimacy that the courts have typically applied to TO THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT ASSUMING THAT THEY'RE DOING THEIR JOBS IN THE RIGHT WAY, IT'S CLEAR DOCUMENTS ARE MISSING.

9:05 IT'S UP TO CONGRESS TO DEMAND THAT THEY BE PROVIDED. MATT, THE NEW YORK TIMES REPORTS THAT HILLARY CLINTON THE CONGRESSMAN, THE CONGRESS WANTS TO RELEASE A PHOTO FROM HER DEPOSITION. AND HERE IS BOBERT BEING ASKED ABOUT WHAT YOU'RE SEEING ON YOUR SCREEN RIGHT NOW. WERE YOU REPRIMENTED by Chairman Comer for that? No, there was no reprimanding. There were no rules violated with a photo. No rules violated? Yeah, we're good. What stood out to you, Congresswoman, from the deposition so far um well i mean i really admired her uh blue suit so i wanted to capture that for everyone anything anything else that she said why did you send the picture why why not just to be clear so people understand the agreement very clearly that was made to have the secretary clinton testify was that there would not be anything like this release and certainly not during her testimony even though she wanted it all to be public

10:04 but do you think that makes bill clinton re-evaluate anything today? Probably not. I think the negotiations are over. He's going to go testify. There's not much he can do about the fact that there are people like Lauren Boebert, who is a social media influencer posing as a member of Congress in that hearing. I mean, look, of course it was a violation of the rules. Everyone knows that. And of course, the chairman Comer didn't do anything to reprimand her because that's how MAGA Republicans operate. They just violate the rules and pretend that they didn't.

10:40 Look, I don't think it was a huge deal that a photo was released, but I think it's important to emphasize and to keep emphasizing that it isn't the Clintons that wanted this to be done behind closed doors. It is the Republicans. And one of the reasons for that is the last time that Hillary Clinton, for example, testified before the Republicans, she just batted them around like a cat with a ball of yarn for 11 hours. This was after Benghazi, and she got the best of them, and they know it. Bill Clinton is pretty quick on a speed still, and I think he's going to do pretty well also.

11:16 So I think the The Republicans were aware that making this public might not go well for them. And it puts a further spotlight on the fact that they are not asking these questions of Donald Trump, who is vastly deeper and vastly more INVOLVED WITH EPSTEIN THAN EITHER OF THE CLINTONS.

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "Trump was 'vastly more involved' with Epstein than the Clintons: Fmr. Clinton WH official"?

Matt (Guest), Ellie, Joyce (Guest).

What is "Trump was 'vastly more involved' with Epstein than the Clintons: Fmr. Clinton WH official" about?

The piece centers on expanding allegations about involvement with Epstein, including reactions from Hillary and Bill Clinton, and Congressman Nancy Mace’s deposition readout, with Clinton and his allies defending their positions and acknowledging possible imperfect recall. It highlights partisan responses, anticipated video releases, and differing memories of past interactions related to Epstein…

What is mentioned in this MS NOW episode?

18 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Bill and Hillary Clinton, Jeffrey Epstein, Hillary Clinton, Epstein file, Donald Trump, Justice Department. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "Trump was 'vastly more involved' with Epstein than the Clintons: Fmr. Clinton WH official"?

The episode runs 12 min; the transcript is about 1,921 words in 18 timestamped sections.

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