Scott Hamilton: Ilia Malinin’s dominance, where he put his gold medal

What this episode is about

Scott Hamilton, the 1984 figure skating gold medalist and NBC Olympic host, discusses the current figure skating landscape, focusing on the dominance of Ilia Malinin and the significant scoring margins that set him apart from competitors. Hamilton also reflects on his own journey to Olympic success, the evolution of key skating techniques like the quad jump, and shares a surprising anecdote about his gold medal.

Key takeaways

• Ilia Malinin: skating's new superstar could make quadruple axles the new normal, defying gravity and expectation.
• From Scott Hamilton to Malinin, figure skating evolves: training, coaching, and ambition reshape the sport's limits.
• Remarkable margin: Malinin wins competitions by over 40 points—a leap that makes Olympic victories feel like distant dreams.
• Hamilton's gold medal journey began with audacious risks—now today's skaters are revolutionizing moves with each twist and turn.
• Malinin's success isn't just talent; it's a physics revolution, with early rotations giving him the edge like never before.

Who speaks in this episode?

• Scott Hamilton (Guest) · 20 min speaking

What is discussed, and when

1. 0:00 – 5:00: Scott Hamilton, Ilia Malinin, Yuma Kagiyama
2. 5:00 – 10:00: Jose Canseco, Finish First
3. 10:00 – 15:00: ISU, Alon's Travel Insurance
4. 15:00 – 20:00: Scott Hamilton
5. 20:00 – 25:00: Caori Sakamoto, Scott Hamilton, Alysa Liu

Notable quotes from "Scott Hamilton: Ilia Malinin’s dominance, where he put his gold medal"

• One of the highlights of the Winter Games for me so far is my conversation with 1984 figure skating gold medalist Scott Hamilton. He's now an NBC Olympic host, and we sat down for a wide-ranging.

  about Scott Hamilton · at 0:05

• Ilia Malin has had over the last three years is over 40 points. And he won the Grand Prix final this last December. He was third in the short program and was way behind Yuma…

  about Yuma Kagiyama · at 1:05

• Nearly the level that he's used to skating and that we're used to seeing him skate at. So yeah, I think if you're going to try to beat Ilia Malinin and you're going into the long program, you're going to need about a 30 plus point lead.

  about Ilia Malinin · at 3:08

• Wrote a book, I guess, eight years ago called Finish First. And, somebody always asks, What's it like to win an Olympic gold medal? Well, here's what it takes, and so to kind of lay it out in a very logical fashion, but it comes down to the.

  about Finish First · at 6:58

• That something that's been like taboo for so long? Well, I was a delegate at the ISU Congress one year and the newly elected president of the ISU said, Okay, I'm going to take…

  about ISU · at 11:46

• Support for upfirst winter games comes from NPR sponsor Alon's travel insurance. Get ready to give ordinary the cold shoulder with protection for adventures that give you the best kind.

  about Alon's Travel Insurance · at 12:59

• Intents and purposes. I think last year Alyssa Lou's u victory at the World Championships and her victory at the ISU Grand Prix Final, those are pretty significant wins for a…

  about Alysa Liu · at 20:44

• Representation from the US women, but I look at what happened in the team event. I think Caori is the favorite to win the gold medal in the ladies.

  about Caori Sakamoto · at 21:45

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

• Scott Hamilton — Person · Main guest · 5 mentions · first at 0:09
  Primary interview subject; discusses modern figure skating scoring/technique, Olympic mindset, and his own career (1984 gold, backflip history, post-Olympic identity).
• Ilia Malinin — Person · Primary referenced athlete / gold favorite · 2 mentions · first at 0:38
  Central competitive benchmark in the discussion; Hamilton explains why Malinin’s scoring margins and quad axel change the men’s event dynamics and how others could catch him.
• Caori Sakamoto — Person · Referenced favorite (women's singles) · 2 mentions · first at 21:18
  Positioned by Hamilton as the likely gold medal favorite in the women’s event; cited as highly focused/prepared and a multi-time world champion.
• Alysa Liu — Person · Referenced contender (women's singles) · 1 mention · first at 20:50
  Discussed as a major U.S. women’s medal/gold threat based on recent top results; contrasted with Japan’s Caori Sakamoto as favorite.
• Yuma Kagiyama — Person · Referenced rival (men's singles) · 1 mention · first at 1:17
  Named as Malinin’s biggest rival in a key example (Grand Prix Final) used to illustrate Malinin’s ability to overcome deficits and win by large margins.
• Jose Canseco — Person · Analogical reference (baseball example) · 2 mentions · first at 6:18
  Used as an analogy for an athlete setting an unprecedented goal and achieving it (40 HR / 40 SB), to frame how skaters like Malinin push boundaries.
  Knows who Yeah. So before that season began, right, before that season began, he decided he asked he was asked about his goals for the season. and he said, I want to hit 40 home runs and steal 40 bases. Everyone looked at each other.

Books & papers

• Finish First — Book · Referenced Work · 1 mention · first at 7:00
  Scott Hamilton's book is mentioned as part of his advice on winning and the mindset required for success.

Companies & orgs

• ISU — Company · Regulatory Body · 1 mention · first at 11:48
  Mentioned in the context of figure skating rules and governance, particularly regarding the legality of backflips in competition.

Sponsors

• Alon's Travel Insurance — Product · Sponsor · 1 mention · first at 13:01
  Mentioned as a sponsor of the podcast, providing travel insurance for winter adventures.

Full transcript with timestamps

0:05 One of the highlights of the Winter Games for me so far is my conversation with 1984 figure skating gold medalist Scott Hamilton. He's now an NBC Olympic host, and we sat down for a wide-ranging conversation about figure skating. We talked about the 2026 US team, the evolution of the quad jump, and the history of the backflip. Hamilton also talked about the challenges he faced as a child and how that built him into the Olympic champion that he is today and you won't believe what he did with his gold medal. We started with who has the best chance at gold in this Olympics and the name everyone is talking about Ilia Malinin here now my conversation with Scott Hamilton. So Scott I mean who has the best chance possible if it's possible to catch Malinin at this point?

0:49 Well it's it's up to Ilia honestly. I mean, you know, if you're up against Ilia Malinin and he has a five-point lead after the short program, you're thinking to yourself, okay, Silver's probably going to be pretty good. You know, uh the the margins of victory that Ilia Malin has had over the last three years is over 40 points. And he won the Grand Prix final this last December. He was third in the short program and was way behind Yuma Kagayyama who is his biggest rival and he ended up winning the competition by over 30. So, you know, it's a it's a pointsbased system and I and for you know people that don't you it's really hard to understand point totals and how they get there and everything. So, if you're a football fan and you see that there was a three-point victory that came down that could have come down to the last second of the game, right? True. Yeah. So that's really tight. If it's a seven-point

1:46 victory, that means that one team had a distinct advantage over another. Ilia Malin and won Skate Canada by 74 points.

1:55 Wow. No, no, no. I mean, these kind of numbers have never really happened before. And I will say, and you know, this I don't know if this will be any any in any way, shape, or form um you know, contrary to, you know, the way that the skating is laid out. The points he gets for a quadruple axle do not reflect its difficulty or anything else. It's only two points more than a quadruple lutch, which many of the people. Yeah,

2:27 you'd think it would be more, but you know, I mean, I never thought I'd see a quadruple axle in my lifetime. It's four and a half revolutions with a forward takeoff an edge. Hello. Impossible. Maybe not so much with Ilia, but maybe for the rest of the world. So going into a long program with a five-point lead and skating last, I mean, you you couldn't put it on a silver platter any better than that for. And the only thing he has to do is rise above Olympic nerves, which he's, you know, he's shown that he's a human being in the team competition. Even though he came back to win the gold headto head with Japan, he still didn't skate at nearly the level that he's used to skating and that we're used to seeing him skate at. So yeah, I I think if you're going to try to beat Ilia Malinin and you're going into the long program, you're going to need about a 30 plus point lead.

3:23 Scott, when you were competing back in the day, I mean, what was considered the hardest thing to do on the ice? Uh that's when the Brians were doing triple axle and Fedev was doing triple axle as well.

3:33 But you know, but then triple axle three and a half revolution jump. Brian Orser was the first one to really land at Swish. Um it was 81 worlds.

3:44 I was in third place going into the long program and uh I skated uh very close to the end. Uh I might have been the last one to skate maybe. I don't remember. But anyway, I knew that he was going to do triple axle and nobody at that point had seen a beautiful one. And when I tell you that Brian Orser's triple axle was perfect, it was perfect. So I I had to find a stairway where I wouldn't hear the applause when he hit it cuz I just didn't want that to be in my psyche. And so I found this empty stairway that was going up and down in the back of the building. And I was in there. I was like la.

4:23 and I heard wow. Oh no. So how does that happen? How how does this evolution happening? Is it just training? The athletes are getting better. How what's what's the main reason?

4:35 Um I think a lot of it happens because um coaches know that they'll need that little extra, right, for their student, right? If you want to win, it probably be better if you did this, right? And skaters are always challenging themselves. I knew that double lets was one of my best doubles. So I started working on triples, thinking that if I got triples, I could get ahead of the game a little bit. And so I worked on it the first year and I ended up falling on my hip so many times that my um right side was swollen just below my rib cage all the way down to my knee. So I started landing it and I got it so down that um I never missed it in competition and that put me ahead of everybody for those four years. You have these guys that introduce it and going back to the coaching

5:27 when I learned how to skate it was up and in. Right. Up and in. Okay. Right. So you jump up in the air and then you start rotating. Well, Iliam Malanin is rotating the second his feet leave the ice and the physics of that I think gives him a second up because it gives him that height. It just the rotation of it carries him in the air.

5:49 Yeah. And it's almost like he's he's suspended there. It's almost like he's defying gravity.

5:54 Well, he's got to start the spin early though, doesn't he? I mean, to get those second the second his feet leave the ice, he's rotating. If I would have learned triple axle, how they're teaching it today, totally would have had it.

6:08 With Mullen, I'm wondering how much is it just an athlete deciding, I want to do something different and and maybe better than before because I'll never forget. Okay, so in Major League Baseball in 1988, there the Oakland A's had a player named Jose Conco. Everyone knows who Yeah. So before that season began, right, before that season began, he decided he asked he was asked about his goals for the season. and he said, "I want to hit 40 home runs and steal 40 bases." Everyone looked at each other. No one had ever done that in Major League Baseball history. And they told him, you know, no one's ever done that.

6:38 He's like, "Well, that's what I plan to do." And then he just went out and did it.

6:42 So, I'm wondering with today's athletes, and in this case, skaters, they're just saying, "Look, I want to do this." And they just work on it and manage to achieve it.

6:51 Again, it comes down to many, many, many things right? So, I always tell my kids, you know, I I wrote a book, I guess, eight years ago called Finish First. And, you know, somebody always asks, "What's it like to win an Olympic gold medal?" Well, here's what it takes, you know, and so to kind of lay it out in a very logical fashion, you know, but it comes down to the greatest strength, like you think about that for a minute. What would be the greatest strength in figure skating or pretty much any sport where it relies solely on you? Let's say you're a tennis player or a golfer or any individual sport. What would be your greatest strength?

7:30 Um, I would say consistency. Training training consistency. No, it's a lack of weakness.

7:37 Ah, okay. If you hit the ball off the tea 350 yards and you can't sink a three-foot putt, you're not going to win any anything, right? So, you've got to be good all the way through.

7:48 All the way around. Yeah. You know, it's like, well, how are we gonna how are we gonna do this? You know, well, you just got to start now and start bringing up these little kids to start rotating like Ilia Malin and then you're probably going to be okay. But in that, it's he has to be a good spinner. He has to pull the levels on his spins, otherwise you're given points back to the field. He's got to get the levels. And levels mean there are certain um elements to every element that allows it to have greater difficulty and better value. Like the way he enters um triple axle in his um short program is he's going backwards on a left outside edge and then he does a turn forward without putting his other foot down and he jumps straight into triple axle. Okay, that that is hard because everything is moving, but everything has to be in the right place at the right time in order to get you in the air so that you can rotate straight.

8:47 I saw so many athletes, they'll swing that left leg under and all of a sudden, you know, my coach would say for every action there's an equal and opposite reaction. As soon as that leg comes to your right leg on an axle comes too far over to the left,

9:02 you're going to be rotating like this, right? And so the other way is, you know, if you're rotating right, you your foot can come down. You might be able to land it. If you're rotated left,

9:13 it's going to hurt really bad. And so, you know, but it just it it it comes down to you have to be strong in every aspect of the competition, otherwise you're giving points back to the field.

9:27 Yeah. Now, Scott, one of the things that you two have in common is the backflip. Um Mullin does a back flip. You did a backflip.

9:34 Thousands. Yeah. Give it give us a history of the backflip because I mean it's still I know it's been done before, but it's still impressive every time I see it. Well um it's funny that uh there's this guy in the 1940s, his name was Skippy Baxter, and he was really good. He was really talented. He could do anything. And from the way the story is told, um he said, "You know what? I bet if I go backwards really fast and stick my toe in the ice, I could get over on a backflip."

10:05 And so he did that. And he got over on a backflip. He did his last backflip at 70 years old.

10:14 70 years old. A backflip. Wow. And when I turned pro in 1984, I joined the ice capes. So I um I started working with a gymnastics coach. He taught me how to get over in a back flip. And then some of the ice show skaters um would tie a towel around my waist and they would spot me going up and down in this flip until my body learned the motion.

10:39 And I remember I was in Salt Lake City the first night of my second year of ice capes.

10:45 And I put the backflip at the beginning of the program because I didn't want to do it on tired legs cuz I didn't want to like land on my head.

10:51 Smart. That's really smart. Well, you know, so I come around, I'm building up speed. Nobody ever saw me do anything like that before. And the adrenaline was flowing so thoroughly that I I I went up in the backflip and it felt like it was in the air for 20 minutes. It just wouldn't come down. And a second my feet hit the ground, the reaction was so outrageous that I said, I am never leaving the house without one of these bad boys in my in my suitcase. So for the next 19 years, I did back flips in my programs and on the ice. And a lot of people think I invented it. You know, Terry Kabika did it in the 76 Olympics and got marked down. You know, he got penalized for it. And there's a lot of people like um you know,

11:41 why was why was that penalized? I mean, it's one of the most amazing things that anyone could ever see on the ice. Why is that something that's been like taboo for so long? Well, I I was a delegate at the ISU Congress one year and the newly elected president of the ISU said, "Okay, I'm going to take some questions and and I I raised my hand." He said, "What's your question?" I said, "Why are back flips illegal in competition?" Now, he's a short track speeding official, so I I know that it was not probably a fair question.

12:11 And he stared at me for probably five seconds. And then he said, "Next question, please." I was like, "Okay, I'll sit down."

12:23 Did he ever give you an answer? Did you ever get an answer? No. It was just one of those things where they just felt like it was a carnival trick. I think, you know, the way

12:31 figure skating, you know, in general year to year, um, has struggled, you know, building fan base. Um, we could spend two hours on that, but um,

12:41 Right. Right. I it it came down to we need to start giving people more of what they want and what we think will ignite conversation. So when you see um Jookovic watching the men's short program and Iliam Allen does a backflip and he absolutely freaks out. It's like okay there's something here to mine.

12:59 Support for upfirst winter games comes from NPR sponsor Alon's travel insurance. Get ready to give ordinary the cold shoulder with protection for adventures that give you the best kind of chills. Learn more at Alon's travel insurance.com.

13:14 So, Scott, you mentioned giving the fans what they want because a lot of times with uh with skating, it kind of shifts every so often between artistic expression and also just pure athleticism. And here's the thing with artistic expression, sometimes it's up to the person seeing it how artistic it is. But when you land a quad, I mean, everyone knows that it's like between, you know, power hitting, hitting a home run and hitting singles. There's a difference, right? One impacts the game more than the other. Uh, where do you think that pendulum is right now between artistic expression and athleticism?

13:46 Well, I think, you know, skating by its nature, even the jump elements, they have to be aesthetically attractive, aesthetically beautiful, aesthetically well performed. you know, meaning that they have a takeoff, they have this beautiful rotation that's straight up in the air, and then they toe edge on the right foot, they land, and they present this landing. I've seen too many skaters sort of just blow off their landings. And it just it's like, really, how many times did you fall in that jump to learn it? Now you're just going to like blow it off and go on to the next thing. It's like there's got to be this beautiful um marriage of of aesthetic look like what you're wearing is is important because nothing h can stand out to be jarring or um something that pulls focus right. So the way that you present your music, the way that you connect your elements through choreography, the steps and the

14:43 difficulty and the intricacy, all these things are really important to creating a complete performance. So much of it is it's got to look a certain way. It's got to you have the right handhold. You've got to be in the right position. The legs have to be just so. But no one's going to win unless they have the complete package. So, that's another thing I wanted to ask you about because when you see a skater for the first time, and it doesn't matter the age, may maybe a younger one for for the sake of this conversation, what do you see that would make you say that could be a potential Olympic champion someday?

15:17 Uh, I don't know. Um, I think it's you look at um body type, right? That's really important. Um, you look at the way they naturally take the ice, the way that they're able to feel and coordinate. Um, when they starting to learn how to move forward with control and skating on one foot, you look at their personalities. Are they timid or are they adventurous? Are they um do they love the music and want to, you know, you know, I was the last place guy in novice nationals, right? Um, well, I was ninth out of nine. in the first year, ninth out of 10 the second year.

15:57 And both the, you know, the young men that won those competitions after that, they they struggled, you know, to have success in the higher levels because I think a lot of it they just felt like there was expectation or maybe they've already won or whatever. Um, for me, I was the last place guy. I had nowhere to go but up, you know. So, I always look for that, you know, that young man at nationals who's kind of sitting in a corner kind of like cuz he's embarrassed cuz he came in last at novice nationals. Now, um, YOU'RE MY MAN. YOU GET OVER HERE. ALL RIGHT.

16:35 SO, you're telling me you're looking for a mirror? If you see what Scott Hamilton used to be there, that's a champion right there.

16:41 Well, no, because I'm the most unlikely person ever in the history of the Olympic Games to ever win a gold medal. Honestly, the most unlikely.

16:49 Why? Why? So, I was very sick as a child. So, to give my parents a morning off, I go to Saturday skating lessons. And uh you know, it was one of those things where I I realized that I could skate as well as well kids cuz I was always the youngest, the smallest.

17:05 I was always the weakest. I was always the sickest kid in my class. And so, I was always the last one chosen for any sport, always. And so I thought, well, I'm get I get on the ice, you know, I'm, you know, it's fun to be out here and it's 120 well kids. This is great. You know, I was on in and out of hospital so much. I was used to being around sick kids. So it was just, you know, a few weeks and I was skating as well as the well kids and a few more weeks I was skating as well as the best athletes in my grade. I mean, it's crazy because I look at pretty much anyone else, you know, and I I could see their path, but for me, it just it doesn't make any sense.

17:43 Wayne Gretzky was often the smallest kid on the ice, and look what happened to him. He became the great one, just like you became a great one. Yeah. Where do you keep your gold medal just by

17:51 I got rid of that as soon as I possibly could. No, no, you didn't. And please don't say You really You did?

17:56 Yeah. It was in a brown paper bag in the bottom of my underwear drawer for eight years. And you got rid of it. Yeah. I gave it to the US Figure Skating Hall of Fame Museum along with every other medal I've ever won. They're gone. I don't have to look at them. I don't have to acknowledge them. I don't have to

18:15 No, it's I've seen too many athletes get stuck. Huh. Stuck. they can't they can't move forward past their Olympic experience and identity and it's toxic. It can be. Um first thing I did when I got back from the Olympics was met the governor of Colorado and he said, "Have you ever heard of the hometown hero syndrome?" I said, "No." and he says kind of when the high school quarterback throws the bomb at the end of the game to win the state championship and um he gets carried off the field on everybody's shoulders and he expects his whole life to be that way.

18:58 And I go, "Yeah." And he goes, "I want you to enjoy the fruits of your labor. Just know it's going to end

19:04 and be ready for when it does." And I thought that was the most generous thing anybody's ever done for me. And then I went to the speak at the parolympic banquet the next night and I was told to wear my medal and my Olympic clothing and I did. And I walked in and I saw every description of human being you could possibly imagine. Losing legs, sight, hearing arms like really having to dig deep just to live a normal life. And they're winning Olympic gold, silver, and bronze medals. And they're competing at the Olympic Games. And in that I was it affected me like who am I? Like nobody like I'm nobody. So I got the medal I it offended me in a really weird way. And it wasn't until I came to faith that I understood it it could have become an idol.

20:00 And and so I just decided I'm not going to acknowledge it. I got to get rid of it somehow, but I want to do it responsibly. And so when I was inducted into the World Figure Skating Hall of Fame, they said, 'Would you like to put anything on display? I go, "Everything." And they go, "What do you mean everything?" I go, "Everything." And they're like,

20:20 "Wow, you want us to have everything?" I go, "Yes, I want you to have everything." I just felt like it was going to prevent me from moving forward.

20:28 Yeah. Before I let you go, Scott, I wanted to ask you about the the women's singles competition next week. It's been a long time, what, 20 years since an American woman has won a medal there. What What do you see happening there? Well, it's USA versus Japan, you know, really, just like in the men, you know, for all intents and purposes. I think um, you know, last year Alyssa Lou's u victory at the World Championships and her victory at the ISU Grand Prix Final, those are pretty significant wins for a young lady that really came back to skate to have fun skating. you know, she she kind of quit for a few years or a couple years and then she said, "I just want to see what I can do." She came back and she won Worlds in Grand Prix final. So, coming in, you'd think she would be the ultimate favorite, but then you watch the team event and you see a very focused and a very prepared CORE Sakamoto who's a, you know, three-time

21:25 world champion. and you're thinking, okay, this is going to be a bit of a climb for the American women. And and uh so I I would, you know, if I had to bet on this, I would probably um you know, I I think there's going to be a a great uh representation from the US women, but I I I look at what happened in the team event. I think Caori is the favorite to win the gold medal in the ladies.

21:55 Okay. Scott, one of the things I think everyone feels about you is that you are as about as passionate as the Olympics as any person on the planet. So I need to ask you when you think of the word Olympic, what does that word mean to you?

22:10 Well, you know, it's kind of goes back to City of Salius 40. It's faster, higher, stronger. It goes um the Olympics is sort of the one event where all eyes are on the games and you look at um you know the the main qualities of an Olympic games and that is people are watching who may never watch your sport right so the audience is bigger it's deeper and then you look at the Olympics as um the world coming together in peace to have friendly competition and a celebration of culture and diversity and all the things that we as human beings should embody like year in year out every single day. But the Olympics showcases all of it. All of it in such a beautiful and powerful way. And when I see, you know, athletes trying to make some sort of political statement, it's like, take the day off. You know, we're above that, right? The Olympic movement is above politics.

23:20 There's going to be problems in the world always. There always has been. There always will be. And if you got a voice, use it. Whatever you want to do is fine. But I do think for the 16 days of the Olympic Games, let's celebrate the world coming together in peace and harmony and celebrating youth and excellence and sport and and and it's beautiful and everything about the Olympic movement um is is beautiful. U when I think about what other global governing body could say lay down your arms for the next 16 days and they'll do it. the Olympic movement, you know, because people respect it and they admire it and they want to protect it and they want to make sure that that this movement stays strong and alive and vibrant and influential. You know, I I I think um the Olympics are so much greater than the sum of its parts, but in that I think it all inspires us to maybe just be a little bit better in whatever

24:27 capacity, be a little bit more um acknowledging of other people's uh identities and cultures. and and it's and it's really an amazing thing that the world can come together and just celebrate life.

24:45 That is Scott Hamilton, Olympic champion and NBC host. Scott, thank you very much for the conversation.

24:51 Oh, my pleasure. The Olympics are about more than medals. They're about the stories, the sacrifices, and those rare moments that bring everyone together. NPR is covering the wins, the heartbreaks, and everything in between. From firsttime athletes to history makers, if you're enjoying the ride, support the coverage by hitting the blue donate button. Thanks for being part of the team.

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "Scott Hamilton: Ilia Malinin’s dominance, where he put his gold medal"?

Scott Hamilton (Guest).

What is "Scott Hamilton: Ilia Malinin’s dominance, where he put his gold medal" about?

Scott Hamilton, the 1984 figure skating gold medalist and NBC Olympic host, discusses the current figure skating landscape, focusing on the dominance of Ilia Malinin and the significant scoring margins that set him apart from competitors. Hamilton also reflects on his own journey to Olympic success, the evolution of key skating techniques like the quad jump, and shares a surprising anecdote…

What is mentioned in this NPR episode?

9 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Scott Hamilton, Ilia Malinin, Caori Sakamoto, ISU, Alysa Liu, Yuma Kagiyama. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "Scott Hamilton: Ilia Malinin’s dominance, where he put his gold medal"?

The episode runs 25 min; the transcript is about 4,644 words in 61 timestamped sections.

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