We Were Drowning in Debt and Didn’t Even Know It (With Jade Warshaw)

What is discussed, and when

1. 5:00 – 10:00: Better Help, Total Money Makeover Workbook
2. 10:00 – 15:00: Better Help

Notable quotes from "We Were Drowning in Debt and Didn’t Even Know It (With Jade Warshaw)"

• Like hey I remember there's this guy Dave like he has a book. Let's go to Barnes & Noble and get it. It was total money makeover workbook. went to get it and [snorts] there's a…

  about Total Money Makeover Workbook · at 8:11

• This is an ad for better help. I talk to hurting people for a living and yes, I can help out folks in tiny chunks of time here on the internets, but often more help is needed. That's why I.

  about Better Help · at 9:57

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

• Dave Ramsey — Person · 1 mention

Books & papers

• Total Money Makeover Workbook — Book · 1 mention · first at 8:14

Companies & orgs

• Better Help — Company · 2 mentions · first at 9:57

Full transcript with timestamps

0:06 You went to college on a full ride. Yeah. Like as an athlete. Um you meet this guy who I love. Um what was it about this Sam guy that you were like, I'm going to do the rest of my life with that guy.

0:22 He was totally different than everybody that I'd ever met. I didn't know till just now your dad was a college football coach. I can't think of a more not Sam thing.

0:34 Complete opposite. Sam is my grandfather. Tell me about that. So I remember reading once that a lot of girls like try to find a guy like their dad and marry their dad. Um that sounds weird, but you know what I mean.

0:49 No, totally. Um and I remember talking to Sam, this was after like a little after we'd gotten married and we were talking about that. He was like, "I am not your dad." And I was like, "No, you're not." And I thought for a minute and I was like, "Oh, you're my grandad." Like, "You're my grandfather." Like my grandfather I I didn't get to see him as much as I wanted to cuz he lived across country. But like he was always just very steady.

1:12 He never like got worked up that I saw. His his his tone was always right here. He was always saying something reasonable. Nothing really ruffled his feathers. like in my mind like that was such like a steady like steady Eddie and that Sam like Sam is

1:30 number one the only person that could be married to me and vice versa possibly. Um but he's just so like you know him he doesn't go

1:39 I call him a walking Xanax. Yeah. He just doesn't he's just right there. But his right there is not aloofness. It's kindness and generos like insane really perceptive generosity.

1:50 Absolutely. very he's very sensitive. He's very like aware of like what's going on. Um

1:57 Yeah. Yeah. Yes. So, you've got this story and we won't rehash it much here because you told the story and and I want people to to read your your new book. You go to college. You got a full ride. You take out a whole bunch of student loans because it's just free money and we're 18, whatever. And then you get married to a guy that also has his own stuff, right? Mhm.

2:18 You all sit down and y'all are pretty close to owing together and your new life together. Half million bucks.

2:24 Mhm. And a hodgepodge of stuff. Mhm. [snorts] Student loans and cars and Yeah. Mostly student loans by far. Yeah. What what's a moment like there has to be that add up moment where this stuff all

2:41 because you and I were talking about this a couple weeks ago like there's a million a million books a million voices a million people trying to tell the story about you should do this with your money this do this the psychology of money this this all that's fine and good

2:56 nobody has tells the story of oh god Right. Yeah. That gets left out. Everybody wants to run to the path and here's what you do, but nobody tells the truth about like

3:12 like the life that's happening around it. I I owe half a million dollars. Yeah.

3:17 Or for most reg like I I owe 300 or $200,000. Right. Right. Right. it. It's that, but it's the life happening around it that makes it even more like like crushing, right?

3:33 Tell me about what do you mean? Cuz Okay, so when we we got married, it was about a week after graduation. You know, when you get married or when you graduate, student loans aren't due till you've got that grace period, right?

3:44 Okay. Um, so nothing was due yet, but it was 2007 going into 2008, great recession. So it it was like right as we were turning the corner to 2008 everything starts gas prices are crazy real estate markets folding in that's when the student loan payments started coming in the mail

4:02 and it was like first mine came and then his started coming and I was like oh holy hell like what is going on

4:09 and that was when that was the first like I'll call that the first crack of when I was like hey like I know my student loans like it was like bills would come and we was like whoever saw the bill would pay it but it wasn't like we weren't having conversations Our money was combined, but we weren't talking about money. So, I was like, if a bill comes, yeah, I see it. I'll pay it. Um, Firestone, oh, that's a credit card. Oh, okay. I'll pay it. You know, Chevron, you have a credit card for your gas. That's kind of weird, but okay.

4:34 Yeah, let's pay it. Uh, Express, you have a credit card for clothes. Oh, all right. I'll pay it. Student loans. Holy moly. Like, that how much are your student loans? Like, so that's how it started happening. um is seeing the bills come in and I was like I remember one day I was like, "Hey, I need to know exactly how much your student loans are because your bills are high." And he was like, "Oh," he was like, "I think they're like around 120." Like I remember I remember we signed one for 120. So it's like as I would ask him, I could tell he really didn't know. Like he had an idea, but he really didn't know. And

5:10 let me pause here. That right there is an important thing that like we go through dating for four or five years. We or two or three however long we dated.

5:18 We meet each other's families. We do holidays. We fall for each other. We go get married. We may do premarital counseling. We do all the stuff

5:27 and we don't know that part. No. Right. I don't even know what I'm walking into. Yeah. Yeah. It didn't even occur to any of us to ask that question.

5:37 Yeah. That's a that's a wild thing, right? It is. It is. It tells me what's so backwards about how we do love now, which is how do you feel first

5:48 and then every and then the rest of it, like you say, like we don't have to deal with reality because the only thing that matters is how we feel about each other, right? No, no, there's a reality to this.

5:56 Gez. So, he doesn't know the number. He doesn't know the number. And like the more I asked him, like the more I realized like, oh, this is a pain point. Like there's something there. And I kind of got to the point where I was like, are you keeping it from me? Like, do you really know and you're just not telling me? because I could see that he was getting agitated about it. But truly, he was probably getting agitated because me being me was like, "How much is like how much are the loans?" You know? Um,

6:18 so early on, I will be honest, like early on, my personality versus his personality, I wasn't the most tactful,

6:27 okay? Like I am going to say that. Um, [snorts] and so that didn't really do anything to help him want to divulge something very like vulnerable like, hey, I have a lot of student loan debt. So, I didn't help that process. Um, and it wasn't until a couple of like really like one or two years later, we had gone, we had moved down to South Florida and uh, his grandfather had passed away and left him a little bit of money. It was supposed to be a lot of money, but because of the great recession, they cashed out at the bottom and so it was like crazy. Well, anyway, um we were there at the house and uh he had just gotten access to the money and it was like, "Okay, we're going to use this to pay off some student loans." And it was like $30,000. And I remember like hearing somebody like reading off like the different debts and that kind of struck me as like, "Well, which one do we want to put this $30,000 on?"

7:21 Meanwhile, I'm like, "I only have $30,000 of debt." Like that. I remember specifically like where I was sitting in the living room that struck me. I was like, "Oh, there's more here than I thought." And so that's

7:32 I remember being 22 or 25 like 30,000 bucks is a million dollar. That's a lot. That's a million dollar. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's a ton.

7:38 Especially in a check. Someone cuz I was thinking, "Oh, he's going to get this money. Like maybe we're going to like pay off all these debts."

7:43 Yeah. Yeah. No, no, no, no. Like that that was just a small piece and that's when I realized it. So that was a that was an eye openener moment for me that I didn't really share much with him cuz it was just I'm like around his family and I'm just like picking up this information.

7:59 It wasn't until we had moved into an apartment and I remember just having like a moment of we have no money like something's wrong here. And so I was like hey I remember there's this guy Dave like he has a book. Let's go to Barnes & Noble and get it. It was total money makeover workbook. went to get it and [snorts] there's a part in there where you're supposed to like list out your debts and like it it's kind of like walking you through exercises and like I still have the book and you can see the point where it was like no more of this.

8:29 Like the the writing in the workbook just stopped because I remember in that moment we were starting to list out the debt and it was so overwhelming that it was like if I see this number I'm going to give up.

8:42 Yeah. Yeah. And you can't give up. But most do because it's so big. Yeah. Yeah.

8:54 Because after $400,000 it's $5 million. I mean it's it's an it's a monopoly money at that point, right? I mean it's like when you start writing down I it's funny you say that. I was in a Barnes & Noble when I went and got the workbook. That's where I went.

9:04 Yeah. And um but I guess the the conversation I've never heard had is like the pacing around the middle of the night

9:17 like the like the I can't I can't eat and like I remember Sheila my wife not knowing.

9:26 Yeah. I remember she would just she just would go to sleep. Yeah. And I was like I don't we don't have any money. You know what I mean? Like I don't have a It was wild, right?

9:36 I do know. So, how's how's the reckoning conversation happen cuz there has to be like a

9:42 we're writing this down. Um, let me let me over this like you take me back here cuz you're here now. Like you're you're there now. Like you're looking at this workbook. Is Sam sitting with you? This is an ad for better help. I talk to hurting people for a living and yes, I can help out folks in tiny chunks of time here on the internets, but often more help is needed. That's why I recommend people go to therapy. And if you're thinking about therapy, try BetterHelp. It's 100% online, so it's affordable and convenient. They've got over 30,000 therapists and they're great at finding just the right one for you.

10:20 Visit betterhelp.com/deloney for 10% off your first month. Is Sam sitting with you?

10:28 Yeah, we're sitting we're sitting together in our apartment and we're going through the numbers and it was like at a certain point I was like, "Okay, close the book. We already know what we have to do. Like we don't need to just sit and list this out and get more depressed."

10:40 Like, you know what I'm saying? Like probably the smartest thing I know like over here we teach list all your debts, write them all out. If I had written out all the debts that night,

10:48 John, it would have been curtains. Like that's it. I don't [snorts] know what I think we would have been so overcome. I don't think we ever

11:01 like we just need to work and like make a lot of money. Like we need to figure out ways to make money because that's the only thing that's going to get us out of this. And so we came out of that uh we came out of that knowing, okay, we're going to do this baby step thing. [gasps]

11:16 Our first course of action is figuring out how we can make more money. Um, and then it kind of like the way I think of it in my mind is like then somebody turned the lights out because right about then we went to work on ships and it was like we had had this thing in our mind that we were like ready break like looking each other in the eye and then it was like my grandfather died little while later Sam's dad died and it was like dark for a couple years.

11:50 Yeah. And like in the darkness, we were like toiling and like doing stuff, but there was it wasn't like

11:55 Yeah. It wasn't like that. It was like we're just It's like when you somebody calls you in the middle of the night and and you're just like putting your clothes on real quick. Like you don't even turn the lights on. You're just like

12:07 But suddenly you wake up in a car and you're a mile away from your house. Yeah. Yeah.

12:12 Yeah. And it was it and then it was like a couple years passed and the lights turned back on

12:18 and then it was like okay whenever whenever somebody dies and and two people are married somebody passes away kid or a parent

12:28 and ever they come over to my house and say what do we do next? The first question I always have is do you all want to stay married

12:34 because people grieve differently. Yeah. And that's the tension. I can't believe you're not over this yet. I can't believe you haven't moved on yet. And that starts numbing behaviors that go like this, right?

12:45 How did y'all stay? Because that's a lot on top of a lot on top of a lot. Cuz as you're describing it, I'm realizing my marriage is not safe. I'm realizing this guy I just pledged my life to owes what and I didn't know.

13:02 And then I lose this man that is the paternal figure in my life and then he loses his dad. That's a lot for a young couple to absorb. That's a lot for a couple married for 30 years to absorb.

13:14 Yeah. Um I don't know that we did a good job of it. Like I mean I'm not going to sit here and be like well I just

13:22 every morning we Yeah. No. I mean I can tell you right now like sometimes I think back on it and I'm like I just didn't know how to handle it. It was a lot going on. Um things I can't say in this room.

13:34 Sure. And I don't I didn't know what to do. Yeah, I didn't I mean he didn't know what to do either. I think I mean at that point

13:46 totally staying alive staying alive man like I mean I love Sam and that's all there is to it

13:55 man and he loves me [snorts] and the best advice I ever got and as as like I don't know like as simple as it may sound it was the best advice I ever read it didn't somebody didn't tell me I read it was like you have to remember goodwill

14:14 and at the end of the day you have to remember like this person I married are they do I really think like cuz stuff is going to happen all the time right like you hurt Sheila's feelings sheila hurts your feelings you know something's happened at the end of the day it's like if I'm really honest with myself do I really think this person's out to hurt me

14:32 right or do I think that they have goodwill towards me and they're just struggling

14:37 but somebody can have goodwill and that that doesn't make them safe to anchor into

14:41 it doesn't but it does make it make you not make them the bad guy. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Like and that was the thing I think he had to remember about me and I had to remember about him is hey I have goodwill towards you and you have good will towards me. There are things in our past that have really jacked with how we are able to process problems.

15:03 But at the end of the day you're doing the best you can. I'm doing the best I can. And we might be like not able to be there for each other in the way that each of us needs right now, but no one's going anywhere.

15:16 Yeah. And that [snorts] was one of the thing that we said one of the things we said like early on is like I'm not going anywhere.

15:23 I I'm just not. And I I and I knew that about him too. And so it almost that can almost be a curse at all in Right. Yeah. Yeah. There's so much here.

15:37 Get rid of me. It's I'm also and he's not here to defend himself. I'm also I cannot imagine the the only word I can think of right now. I can't imagine the shame I would feel.

15:53 Yeah. Like trying trying to say like I'm a husband and we're not we're going to have to postpone having kids. We're going to have to postpone this house. I'm going to have to postpone this. I'm supposed to a problem.

16:06 Financially, she's worse off because she's with me. Like that would I remember cuz emotionally I was like that for my wife. Like

16:14 you are worse off because you're with a crazy guy. Yeah. And that like I felt like every day I was waking up with already like a ruck bag on. You know what I'm saying?

16:25 That was my biggest that shame was the biggest fear I had in our marriage. His or yours?

16:32 Mine. because I saw it and and I mean I'll say uh when I was writing the book, this was the story, this was the part that I that I I knew I wanted to write about, but it was very hard because and I I said to Sam, I was like, "Hey, I'm putting this in here." He was like, "Yes."

16:54 Because I think that this is what people feel and they don't say it. Like shame is such a it's such a secret like it's like it wants to be your biggest like your deepest darkest secret, right? That you're you have become this identity.

17:10 Mhm. And even though like in the light of day or like in conversations it'd be like, "All right, ready break." Like we're on the same team. Like we're paying off our debt. D I just and I'll never I'll just never forget this John because it it was like it went into my soul. We Okay, so at the time we were living in a townhouse. It was my mother-in-law's townhouse. She was letting us rent it at at cost. And we had roommates. Roommates were living downstairs. We were living upstairs. And [snorts] my husband was in the, you know, it was night time. We were getting ready for bed. He was in the bathroom brushing his teeth. And he was just, I was walking by the bathroom and I could see him in the in the mirror. He was just standing there brushing his teeth, but he was like st like his eyes were like gone.

17:54 Yeah. I mean, they were gone. Yeah, they're good. I just never saw that. Yeah. I'd never seen that level of despair.

18:14 And I in my mind, I was like, it's my job to make sure he keeps his life. Yeah.

18:21 This is my job. Yeah. And that it was my job for 5 years. And I remember one time I told him I was like the hardest conversation I had with him. I was like, I got to my I feel like I can't carry this anymore. Like I feel like and he cuz he didn't know. I never said anything. But like I was afraid like I was like man he doesn't see his Oh, I just was [snorts] I just told him I was like, "Listen, I'm afraid you're going to take your life like flat out."

19:02 Yeah. And he was like, "I understand that." Yeah. And so saying that stuff out loud, that's the stuff That's the stuff that eats you alive.

19:19 Yeah. Um, and that's what shame does. It makes you feel like you're just not worth being.

19:28 Yeah. And that you've ruined everything and that your very existence is messing up somebody else's existence.

19:34 Yeah. You're a burden. You're a burden. And that's just not true. Yeah. It's just not. And

19:44 that was the hardest part. [clears throat] But that's not in the numbers, right? That's that's the thing.

19:50 That's not in the math, right? That's not in the math. And that's that for me is what's been missing from all of this. I'm like, bro, there's people on the other side of this.

20:00 Yeah.

Questions about this episode

What is discussed in "We Were Drowning in Debt and Didn’t Even Know It (With Jade Warshaw)"?

In order: 5:00 Better Help, Total Money Makeover Workbook; 10:00 Better Help.

What is mentioned in this The Dr. John Delony Show episode?

3 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Better Help, Total Money Makeover Workbook, Dave Ramsey. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "We Were Drowning in Debt and Didn’t Even Know It (With Jade Warshaw)"?

The episode runs 20 min; the transcript is about 3,862 words in 86 timestamped sections.

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