Transcript

The Long Fuse | This American Life | Episode 668

From This American Life · Episode page · Watch on YouTube

· 1 h 6 min · 10,908 words · 77 timestamped sections

This is the full, timestamped transcript of "The Long Fuse | This American Life | Episode 668", an episode of This American Life published April 7, 2025 (1 h 6 min, about 10,908 words). It mentions 13 people, works and ideas, including This American Life, Jennifer Lameasure, New England Journal of Medicine, Howard Steel, Robert Ho Manqu Quac.

What this episode is about

The main topic explores the origins of the misconception regarding monosodium glutamate (MSG) as a harmful substance linked to "Chinese Restaurant Syndrome," traced back to a single letter published in the New England Journal of Medicine. The narrative delves into how this myth has persisted over decades despite scientific evidence proving MSG's safety, highlighting broader themes of race and cultural perceptions surrounding Asian cuisine.

Key takeaways

  • One letter sparked decades of MSG paranoia—proving a single sentence can alter culinary narratives for generations.
  • MSG: misunderstood and demonized—42% of Americans still think it's harmful despite decades of scientific evidence proving otherwise.
  • The 'Chinese Restaurant Syndrome' myth is an origin story illustrating how misinformation can tarnish a culture's cuisine.
  • Dr. Ho Man Quack's identity swap highlights how academic misattributions can lead to real-world health fears—beware the names behind stats.
  • A retired surgeon casually admits to creating a panic—reminding us that sometimes, fear is built on a house of cards.

Who speaks in this episode?

What is discussed, and when

  1. – 10:00: Jennifer Lameasure, Howard Steel, New England Journal of Medicine, Michael Blanding
  2. – 20:00: Howard Steel, New England Journal of Medicine
  3. – 30:00: Charles Vance Miller, Elizabeth Wilton, Karen Nolan
  4. – 40:00: Charles Vance Miller
  5. – 50:00: Charles Vance Miller
  6. – 1:05:53: This American Life, Jennifer Lameasure

Notable quotes from "The Long Fuse | This American Life | Episode 668"

  • Just had this sort of throwaway line that yeah, this myth of MSG being harmful can be traced back to one letter in the New England Journal of Medicine.
    about New England Journal of Medicine · at
  • Published it in an academic journal in 2017. And then after that, she gets his voicemail on her work number. She's a professor at Colgate University. Yes.
    about Jennifer Lameasure · at
  • On a totally unexpected life of their own. And in all these stories, the words wreak havoc for years. From WBZ Chicago, it's This American Life. I'm Arag Glass.
    about This American Life · at
  • That's Michael Blanding, the journalist who did the interviews. He's the one you can hear typing during this call. I'm going to I'm going to take you back to the.
    about Michael Blanding · at
  • And excited and talking about this guy's plan that he set in motion for years and years. Stephanie Fu explains, In 1926 in Toronto, Canada, a 72-year-old lawyer named Charles…
    about Charles Vance Miller · at
  • Toronto to see what theirs was. I don't think anybody, fully knows why he did this. This is Elizabeth Wilton.
    about Elizabeth Wilton · at
  • Reporters started pounding on their doors. It was madness really. It was a media feeding frenzy. This is Karen Nolan. She worked with Elizabeth to develop a screenplay for a…
    about Karen Nolan · at
  • Goldenberg, Veronica Simmons, Astred Lang, Brandon Cppley, and Michelle Solomon. Jennifer Lameasure, who you heard at the beginning of the show, has a book, Inscrable Eating…
    about Inscrutable Eating · at

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

  • Jennifer Lameasure — Person · Referenced expert / main subject of Act 1 · 4 mentions · first at
    A Colgate professor who researched the origin of the MSG scare and traced it to a New England Journal of Medicine letter, triggering the episode’s first story.
  • Howard Steel — Person · Key figure / claimant in Act 1 · 5 mentions · first at
    A retired surgeon and Colgate trustee who claimed authorship of the famous MSG letter under the name 'Ho Man Quac,' complicating the story’s attribution and truth.
    Good afternoon. My name is Dr. Howard Steel. I'm a Colgate alum. In fact, I'm the oldest surviving trustee. That's Colgate. And I've been there since God and love it. At any.
  • Robert Ho Manqu Quac — Person · Referenced author / disputed attribution in Act 1 · 1 mention · first at
    Named signatory of the NEJM 'Chinese Restaurant Syndrome' letter that helped spark the MSG myth; later reporting suggests he was a real researcher whose family says he wrote it.
    Great extent for seasoning in Chinese restaurants. And that one line is what spawned this entire myth. The letter was signed Robert Ho Manqu Quac MD.
  • Charles Vance Miller — Person · Central subject of Act 2 · 4 mentions · first at
    Toronto lawyer whose prank-like will created the 'stork derby' contest, driving the episode’s second story about long-lasting fallout from a few written words.
  • Michael Blanding — Person · Interviewing journalist (Act 1) · 2 mentions · first at
    Conducted recorded interviews with Howard Steel for the Colgate Alumni Magazine, providing key audio evidence used in the episode.
  • Elizabeth Wilton — Person · Referenced expert (Act 2) · 1 mention · first at
    Researched the stork derby extensively and provides analysis of motivations, media dynamics, and social context around the contest.
  • Harold McGee — Person · Referenced expert (Act 1) · 1 mention · first at
    Science and food writer who states that the MSG harm myth can be traced to a single NEJM letter, providing the key 'origin story' clue.
    You did, too. But Jennifer knows this is a myth. In fact, the very next segment on the show is science and food writer Harold McGee saying just that. and he just had this sort…
  • Karen Nolan — Person · Referenced expert / adapter (Act 2) · 1 mention · first at
    Worked with Elizabeth Wilton to develop a screenplay based on the stork derby and comments on the media frenzy and cultural prejudice surrounding it.
  • David Chang — Person · Referenced public figure (Act 1 trigger) · 1 mention · first at
    Mentioned as the chef on a PBS cooking show whose discussion of MSG prompts Jennifer Lameasure’s interest in the myth’s origin.
    Few years ago, Jennifer Lameasure was watching this PBS cooking show and this chef, David Chang, started talking about MSG, monos sodium glutamates. And of course, lots of people believe MSG is.

Books & papers

  • Inscrutable Eating — Book · Referenced work · 2 mentions
    Jennifer Lameasure's book, which includes a chapter on MSG and American perceptions of Asian food.

Companies & orgs

  • New England Journal of Medicine — Company · Referenced work · 3 mentions · first at
    Central to the story about the MSG myth, as it published the controversial letter.
  • Colgate University — Company · Affiliation · 1 mention · first at
    Jennifer Lameasure's place of work, where she received the voicemail from Dr. Steel.
    Published it in an academic journal in 2017. And then after that, she gets his voicemail on her work number. She's a professor at Colgate University. Yes.

Media & podcasts

  • This American Life — Media · Host · 4 mentions · first at
    The podcast hosting the episode, providing the platform for the stories discussed.

Full transcript with timestamps

Few years ago, Jennifer Lameasure was watching this PBS cooking show and this chef, David Chang, started talking about MSG, monos sodium glutamates. And of course, lots of people believe MSG is bad for you. Gives you headaches, a food hangover. That idea has been around for decades. I grew up hearing this. Maybe you did, too. But Jennifer knows this is a myth. In fact, the very next segment on the show is science and food writer Harold McGee saying just that. and he just had this sort of throwaway line that yeah, this this myth of MSG being harmful can be traced back to one letter in the New England Journal of Medicine.

A uh letter to the editor in the New England Journal of Medicine. And I was just sort of sitting there going, "Huh, one letter." It was like, "Oh, it's an origin story." At the time, Jennifer was a PhD student, very interested in the way people talk about race and Asian-Americans. So to hear that there was once this letter that led Americans to freak out about the dangers of an ingredient commonly used in Chinese food, an ingredient that was later proven totally harmless, Jennifer wanted to see that letter. So she went into the stacks, found this old journal from the '60s. And there it was, a letter to the editor from a doctor titled Chinese Restaurant Syndrome. So the letter reads, uh, for several years since I have been in this country, I have experienced a strange syndrome whenever I have eaten out in a Chinese restaurant. The syndrome, which usually begins 15 to 20 minutes after I have

eaten the first dish, lasts for about 2 hours without any hangover effect. The most prominent symptoms are numbness at the back of the neck. He runs through the symptoms that he's observed. Then he runs through the possible causes for this strange numbness and eliminates them one by one. Soy sauce, no. cooking wine. No. And then he gets to the sentence that's going to live on for a half century. Quote, others have suggested that it may be caused by the monosodium glutamate seasoning used to a great extent for seasoning in Chinese restaurants. And that one line is what spawned this entire myth. The letter was signed Robert Ho Manqu Quac MD.

So the first thing she did was look up Dr. Quac to get the whole story from him. What she learned was Dr. Clark had been a researcher and a pediatrician in Maryland and he was dead. She ran an obituary from 2014. So instead, she traced the history of how this letter blew up, led to all these other things by reading subsequent issues of the New England Journal of Medicine and newspapers from the time and other documents. She wrote a paper, published it in an academic journal in 2017. And then after that, she gets his voicemail on her work number. She's a professor at Colgate University. Yes.

Good afternoon. My name is Dr. Howard Steel. I'm a Colgate alum. In fact, I'm the oldest surviving uh trustee. That's Colgate. And I've been there since God and love it. At any rate, uh and at first I'm just like, am I in trouble? Like, you know, why is a why is a board member calling me? What's going on? Uh I have some information perhaps you might like to hear. And then he sort of pauses and he says, "I am the author of Ho Man Quack. I am the author of Ho Man Quac." My brain just sort of goes, "What?" And I have a lot to say about it. I just it just surfaced and I'm listening to the voicemail in my living room and my jaw is just dropping because up until then I had completely I had operated under the assumption that Dr. Ho Man Quac was a Chinese American researcher and all of a sudden I don't know what to believe. The confusion makes sense because remember there was a Dr. Robert Hman Quac the one who's

obituary she read. So who's this guy on the phone? I have a phone. I answer that phone all the time because I store the uh little thing that keeps it electrified in my left chest. He makes this little joke about how he keeps his phone in his pocket right by the thing that electrifies his pacemaker. So when the phone rings, my heart stops and I answer immediately. At any rate, it would be a pleasure to hear you hanging up now. Have a nice evening. Bye. Okay. What? Right. This message was just the beginning, the very odd beginning of a story that we're going to continue in just a minute. You will hear more from the mysterious Dr. Steel. Cuz this letter to the editor, I don't know. Is it possible that this is the most impactful letter to the editor in the history of letters to the editor? It launched an entire MSG scare that lasted for decades. Even today, 42% of all Americans think that it's bad for you,

and it's not. Since the '9s, the FDA has listed MSG as perfectly safe for its intended use, like vinegar, salt, pepper. Today in our show, we have three stories like this one, where people throw words out into the world that take on a totally unexpected life of their own. And in all these stories, the words wreak havoc for years. From WBZ Chicago, it's This American Life. I'm Arag Glass. Stay with

us. It's This American Life. Today's show is a rerun. Act one. Humor is not the best medicine. Okay. So, where we left off, it was the voicemail on Jennifer Lameshar's phone from this retired surgeon where he says, "Okay, I'm the guy. I made up a fake name. I wrote a letter and it set off 50 years of completely needless panic over MSG. Call me. Lily Sullivan explains what happened next. When Howard Steel left that voicemail for Jennifer Lameasure, she calls him back right away. Gets the whole story from him. She doesn't record it though. And a few months later, Dr.

Howard Steel dies. But before he died, the Colgate Alumni Magazine, remember Jennifer teaches at Colgate, Howard's on their board. They did a couple interviews with him, though. They did record. Okay, great. Hi, Howard. Hi. How are you today? I'm fine, thanks. How are you? That's Michael Blanding, the journalist who did the interviews. He's the one you can hear typing during this call. I'm going to I'm going to take you back to the beginning was a dear dear friend of mine and I were recovering from a Chinese meal we had downtown. We used to about once a week and we were perfectly happy.

Har's friend Bill was a doctor, too. They'd eat, drink, and talk shop. And they got to talking about being published in medical journals. Yeah. Bill Hansen, he he said, "You know, you're a stupid steel number one. You shouldn't expect to send articles out and then get them published in these dumb journals." Howard's friend was a doctor of internal medicine, which he was constantly reminding Howard is a much smarter breed of doctor. He told me that it was impossible for someone as stupid as an orthopedic surgeon, which I was, to write an article that could be published in something as magnificent as the New England Medical Journal. That was a threat. And he was willing to make a bet. Bill bet Howard $10 that he couldn't get published there. It's one of the most prestigious medical journals in the world, which Howard took as a challenge. and I decided, well, I'll write a little article and send it over

there. So, I went home and I sat down and wrote a letter to the editor of the Journal of Medicine in New England. And uh I didn't sign it with my name, but I signed it homeand quack. H O one word m one word quack quo k figuring that someone when they got this letter would realize that what that word really was was a breakdown of a not nice word we used to use all the time when someone was a jerk. We call him a human croc of you know what. Human croc homeman quack. I know, cringey. An offensive pun on a Chinese name, a white guy playing an Asian for laughs. Keep in mind this was the '60s. He said he made up the name of Dr. Quac's Research Institute and his title too.

He said the Chinese food wasn't the point of it, except for that they were at a Chinese restaurant eating and drinking a little too much the night they made the bet. And Howard won that bet. Yes, it wasn't an article. It was a letter, but it was printed in the journal. Good enough for them. Here's Michael Blanding, the reporter who interviewed Howard. But once he saw it, once the letter was published, he was sort of mildly horrified. So, he was horrified at first. He wasn't happy that he won the bet. It's hard to tell. You know, I'd seem like in he would sort of go back and forth between uh being proud of the fact that he was able to to achieve this uh being published in this journal and and sort of being distressed by the fact that it actually made it into print. As soon as it came out, I called the uh the journal editor and told him it was a bunch of bunk that I you know I it was all fake. It was all

made up and he hung up the phone on me. He wouldn't talk any further. He thought I was a jackass. So I kept calling him and finally apparently he gave a message to the phone girl in the office that if anybody name Howard called hang up. So yeah actually for years I tried to call him and tell him that the whole thing was a hoax that it was not true. I didn't know anything about Chinese and particularly Chinese what's it called? Chinese uh restaurants. I I never saw anybody. Didn't know what the hell I'm talking about. So that's Howard's story. And then this joke of his snowballed. After the letter was published, other doctors wrote in, some of them making jokes about this Chinese restaurant syndrome, but also often recounting their own experiences and symptoms. The New York Times notices 10 letters from doctors, publishes an article. Remember, no scientific studies at this point, just letters, some of them jokes. The

headline was, "Chinese restaurant syndrome puzzles doctors. The news spread from there under headlines like Quarks que and Chinese cow numbs some. Here's Jennifer, the professor who traced the history. I mean, the titles were very, very offensive. Um, uh, let's see. Let me see if I can find the one from the Chicago Tribune. In broken English, the headline is Chinese food make you crazy. MSG is number one suspect. Wow. Chinese food make you crazy. I can't believe that was a headline. Yeah. So, I was like, um, they were all reacting to something that wasn't even real. It was all projection.

To this day, lots of Chinese restaurants post no MSG signs in their windows and printed on their menus. Everybody in the world is talking about the Chinese restaurant syndrome, and it's a lie. It's a big fib. The f hit the sh the It's astounding. Howard told lots of people this story over the years. He told groups of other doctors. He told Jennifer who believed him. She alerted the alumni magazine who recorded those interviews. They pitched the story to us. And we were like, 96-year-old man confesses to writing a prank letter that drove the nation to a decad's long scare about a toxin that's not actually toxic. He's dead, but you have recordings. We're in. But as we and Michael the reporter started looking into this more carefully, there were a few things that were puzzling. For one, the name of the research institute Howard said he invented, the National Biomed Research Foundation. Michael

discovered it was a real place and the real Dr. Quac had worked there. Kind of a coincidence if Howard made up the name like he said he did. It also seemed weird if the journal published a fake letter with Dr. Quac's name and institution on it and it was quoted in over a 100 newspapers naming him and the letter. It seemed weird that the real Dr. Quac never set the record straight. Never published a letter complaining in the New England Journal of Medicine or in any of those newspapers. Also, Howard said he tried to get the journal to retract it, that he called and the editor wouldn't take his calls. We reached out to the New England Journal of Medicine. They declined to comment. But it seems strange just on the face of it. Howard became a highly acclaimed surgeon. He invented important medical procedures.

It seems like for sure he could have gotten the attention of someone at the journal. It's hard to verify what really happened because everyone involved in this is dead. Howard is dead. The friend he made the bet with is dead. The real Dr. Quac is dead. But Dr. Quac has kids. We called them and talked to his family. We also spoke to one of his colleagues at the research foundation and the son of his boss there. They all said, "Yes, Dr. Robert Homeman Quac did write the letter. His daughter said he was proud of it, that he was a concerned doctor and a curious scientist who'd often pose questions like this. It wasn't a joke at all. The thought that Howard was going around telling the story for years, it creeped her out a little. And when you read the original letter, there are details that seem more likely to come from her father than from Howard. Like when he says he moved to the US, which

the real Dr. Quac did and how he's very specific that the syndrome happens with northern Chinese food in the 60s. How many white guys in Philadelphia would have made that distinction? Also, home on Quac is an actual Cantonese name. What are the odds that Howard Steel threw together random Chinese sounding syllables to arrive at that? I called up Jennifer, the professor that Howard Steel had left the voicemail for. Um, I finally reached the Quac family. Okay. And they told me something. Um, they say that their father did write the letter.

What? Yeah. They say that he wrote it and they're certain. Wow. Okay. What do you think of that? I honestly have no idea. Me neither. I just like I cannot believe that Dr. Steele made this up. Right now I'm like are there two were there two letters? Like did they just hap did like they happen to write about MSG at the same time and like one got printed and like one person thought it was edited? Like I don't even know. I mean I can't really like I mean man the timing of this I wish I wish Dr. Steel was still alive. I mean, for many reasons, obviously. Uh, there were two options. Neither of them good. Someone has been telling a story that's not true for 50 years. One of these two men, both of whom were, by all accounts, brilliant, upstanding pillars of their communities. Either Howard was fessing up to something he totally did not do, claiming responsibility for the whole MSG mess, when actually he had

nothing to do with it, or Howard was telling the truth. And Dr. Robert Homeman Quac, beloved pediatrician and researcher, had seen this letter to the editor in the journal with his name on it that he didn't write, was delighted with his good fortune and rolled with it for 50 years. I had one person left to call, Howard Steel's daughter, Anna. She grew up hearing this story. I told her everything I just told you. Okay, that's that is a shock, but actually not that big a shock. It took her about two seconds to make sense of all this. She believed the quarks, not her father. No, I I don't think anybody who knew him and loved him would would be would be surprised. It's just one one more thing in the life of my dad.

This she said this is exactly the kind of thing he loved to do. He liked to prank people and he told lots of big stories about himself. Many true and some not. You can never totally believe him and never quite not believe him. In fact, she says it would help explain this other thing that even though her father supposedly won the bet, his buddy never paid him. The fact the bet was never settled up is is is a suspect that maybe it was a wink wink between them both. Well, so now knowing all this, do you feel convinced that he didn't write the letter? It seems to point in that direction, doesn't it?

I mean, if I thought we were dealing with, you know, two straight laced, straight arrow, nononsense physicians, I might be arguing a stronger position. But knowing these two clowns, I I'm I'm not sure I can um there's not much I can say. So, it seems like Howard didn't write the fake prank letter that caused decades of chaos. His prank was that he said he had written the letter. He was claiming credit for chaos he didn't create. It was complicated to even think about. Oh my god. That's too funny. All right. Well, here we are.

First, the world believed MSG was bad for you, and it wasn't. And now we nearly believed a second piece of fake news. That it all started with Howard. Here's where Anna came down. Loving her father and his best friend. But also, what the hell? I wish I could give them both a piece of my mind. I'm not angry, but I just want to say you owe everybody huge apology. What is wrong with you? And he would just start laughing. I'm sure. And he would have a big mischievous grin and he'd say something like, "I don't owe anybody an apology. You all should have had your head screwed on straight to figure out this was a joke." So many people near the end of their lives are trying to make things right. He was trying to make trouble.

Like a last like a last act, like a lifelong legacy prank. Kind of. You got the last laugh. I'll do anything you want to with this. Oh, I'll talk to anybody. They won't believe me anyway. I'm here and happy to screw things up further, but I can't believe what I did for 50ome years. So, I don't know what anyone would want to do with it except shut my mouth, but it's getting kind of late. God will shut it pretty soon. And you know how she is. Howard died just a few months after he laughed his way through those interviews. He was 97.

Lily Sullivan is one of the producers of our show. Fact two, Baby's Got Bank. Okay, I know how unlikely this sounds, but we now have another old guy basically pranking the world right before he dies, but on a scale that gets hundreds of thousands of people involved and excited and talking about this guy's plan that he set in motion for years and years. Stephanie Fu explains, "In 1926 in Toronto, Canada, a 72-year-old lawyer named Charles Vance Miller was at lunch at the Queen's Hotel with two lawyer friends. They got into an argument over some legal matter. Miller told them they were both wrong and he'd prove it if they followed him up to his office. He eagerly ran up three flights of stairs, grabbed a law book, plopped it on his desk, and then died. Just put his head down on the desk, and was gone. A couple days later, rumors started swirling. Charles Vance Miller had done well for himself, gotten rich.

He'd avoided scandal his whole life, was an upstanding citizen, though he had no family, never married. He'd hinted that he'd leave his fortune to the University of Toronto. But when his fellow lawyers brought out his will, that's not what they found. As soon as Miller's people started executing his will, they realized that his will was like an elaborate prank, as if he'd thrown a bunch of money out of a window to watch what would happen. He left stock in a brewery to prohibitionist pastors. He gave his racing stock to people who didn't believe in bedding. He said he wanted to leave his vacation home in Jamaica to three other lawyers. A nice thing for them to share, except for the fact that the three lawyers all hated each other. But by far, the clause that unleashed the most mayhem was the last one. It's about all the rest of his money. I'll just read it to you. at the expiration of 10 years from my death.

Give it and its accumulations to the mother who has since my death given birth in Toronto to the greatest number of children as shown by the registrations under the Vital Statistics Act. End quote. In other words, the woman who had the most babies in the 10 years after his death would be awarded a whole lot of money, 9 million Canadians in today's money or almost 7 million. There were immediately a number of theories as to why Miller did this. But none of them were charitable. If he really wanted to support a young woman with a bundle of kids, he could have just willed all the money to her at the time of his death. But setting this up over the next 10 years created a twisted contest. Some said he was an avid supporter of birth control, so maybe setting off a babymaking storm could be a wicked way to force a conversation about it. Some said he was trying to test the legal systems ability to hold

up a crazy will, but that he'd really expected it would be thrown out. that the money would automatically just be donated to the University of Toronto, his alma mater. People said that Miller had been obsessed with the idea of what people would do for money. He liked to talk about how everybody had their price. Maybe he was testing the women of Toronto to see what theirs was. I don't think anybody, you know, fully knows why he did this. This is Elizabeth Wilton. She wrote a 200page dissertation on the contest. I just think he saw it as a big joke. I feel like the modernday word for it would be that he was basically a troll. That would be a good word for it.

Yeah, he pretty much cops to it in his will. He says, "This will is necessarily uncommon and capriccious because I have no dependence or near relations, and no duty rests upon me to leave any property at my death. And what I do leave is proof of my folly in gathering and retaining more than I required in my lifetime." Apparently, Miller really liked to drop dollar bills on the sidewalk and hide and watch people pick them up. When I think about the kind of person who'd plant a wallet in the street and put it on YouTube today as a commentary on human nature, yeah, I feel like I know who that guy is. For the first few years after Miller died, nothing happened. A few newspaper articles were written. Nobody took it very seriously. Some relatives went to court arguing that the money should go to them. And then 6 years after his death, the attorney general introduced a bill trying to nullify the will and have

the money donated to the University of Toronto. This was a mistake. Totally backfired. Before this, not many people knew about the will. But now that the government was trying to invalidate it, the press picked it up and there was a huge public outcry. But not in the way you might think. The public was like, "Baby making race? Hell yeah, we want a baby making race." Women's group supported the contest because they felt women should have a fair shot at the money, which what can I say? It was a different time. Others disagreed with the government intervening in people's wills and affairs. Altogether, it caused an uproar. The government backtracked, said, "Okay, fine. You people have fun.

And with that, the race was on. Usually when the story has been told, it's like, haha, a man created this zany will that set off a wild babymaking storm in Canada. It conjures Brady Bunch images of big families happily stuffing their way to fame and fortune, kneedeep in Cabbage Patch Children. But the way it unfolded was actually much darker. Because of course, the story is about an old man encouraging women to go through the excruciating pain and danger of childbirth as often as possible in a 10-year period. A 10-year period that was already half over. This contest didn't really get started until 6 years in. That made it skewed from the start.

It meant suddenly the only contenders were women who had about six babies in the last 6 years. Women who didn't even know there was a contest to be part of. They found out about it quick when reporters started pounding on their doors. It was madness really. It was a a media feeding frenzy. This is Karen Nolan. She worked with Elizabeth to develop a screenplay for a movie based on the contest that aired on Canadian television in 2002. As soon as the will was verified, reporters went through the birth registry, found women who had already given birth to about six children since Charles's death, and dashed to their homes to try and get the exclusive. you know, they coined the phrase the stork derby um comparing it to like a horse race. So, there was a mad dash to track down the women, get their exclusive stories, and to follow them and hound them um on the very intimate and personal details of their

life. It must have been a jarring experience to be an automatic front runner in this bizarre contest, but most of the mothers went along with it because of the $9 million. Many of the contestants were desperately poor. During those first six years, the Great Depression had taken hold. Nearly a quarter of Toronto's families were on welfare. Families were living in shacks or camps. Some even ate groundhogs to keep from starving. Canada's birth rate had actually plummeted at the time. And so most of the families that suddenly found themselves in the running to receive this dork derby money agreed to media scrutiny because they wanted the chance at the prize and because in the short term the newspapers offered them money exclusive contracts where reporters could come and photograph and interview the families whenever they wanted to. Sometimes the families even got advertising deals for things like

soap. In many ways this was sort of like an OG reality show, albeit a really perverse one. The front runners of the stork derby even became household names like John and K plus8 or maybe more like Octimom. After all, it was build on the news reels as freak Canadian race. Papers all over the world from the New York Daily News to the Marshfield Wisconsin News Herald picked up the story. The press followed a bunch of contenders, but I'm only going to run through three of the long-term favorites to win. One of the first competitors that the newspapers dug up was Mrs.

Grace Bignado. I don't want to give away who won or how many kids Mrs. Bignado actually had during the race, but over her lifetime, Mrs. Bignado was pregnant 24 times, though only 12 of those children lived. She was a working mother. She was a wiz with languages, picked up Polish, German, Yiddish, and worked as a court interpreter in Italian. All the while, she raised her 12 children and would get up at 4:30 in the morning to make two dozen butter tarts macaroni meatballs sausage and her famous red sauce for her family. But the public didn't exactly see her as a hero. Here's Karen again. The cultural makeup of Toronto at the time um was a very waspy waspy society. And we have this Italian family here who is, you know, reproducing children at a rate that outpaced the the white Protestant uh Anglo-Saxons.

Mrs. McNat's husband was an Italian immigrant, and some papers weren't kind about that. These were the years leading up to World War II. Of course, it didn't help that one of the other Italian contestants named one of their derby babies Little Bonito Mussolini. But because of their nationality, Italian families in the race received phone calls calling their families fascists and threatening to kidnap their children. Contestant number two was Mrs. X. She was the scandalous one. She was a social outcast because her children were fathered by different men which was you know taboo and she was shamed for that.

She was considered to be a trolop u you know by having uh children with more than one man. That's a saucy word. I should start using that. Mrs. X had five children from her husband but then her marriage fell apart. He moved out and she entered into a new relationship with a man and had another five kids with him. She wanted to marry him but didn't have enough money to go through with her divorce. All in all, Mrs. X had 10 children by the time she was 24. She tried to hide her identity because of the circumstances of her situation, but her name was eventually revealed.

Pauline May Clark. Contestant number three was Mrs. Kenny. She's my favorite character in the whole whole story. Why is she your favorite? I think her eccentricity for one thing. Um her passion and her undeniable belief that she was the chosen one, if you will. Mrs. Kenny was in it to win it. She was under 5t tall, but over the course of her lifetime, she wound up carrying 19 pregnancies to term. She was French Canadian, married to an Irish man, and she believed that money was hers. She said she had the gift of second sight and a divine connection with Miller who told her she was going to win. So, of course, it had to be true. Mrs. Kenny was a talented wood carver and often sold her carvings in the street. And she carved a large number of statues of Miller, even named one of her children after him. At one point, a bunch of the leading derby mothers got together and said, "Screw this whole race. Let's just

share the winnings." It was a ton of money. They were all poor. It would still result in plenty for everyone. But Mrs. Kenny was the sole hold out. The only one who insisted, "No, I'm the winner," she shouted once. "And I won't split with anybody. Why should I? It's my money, and if the judge doesn't give it all to me, I'll walk right up to the bench and punch him in the eye." So, yeah, Mrs. Kenny was tough as nails, but she probably was the poorest of the three. Her family lived in a slum, and their home was infested with rats. One night, rats attacked three of her children. Tiny 3-month-old Patrick had the worst of it. Here's Karen. So, yes, it had bitten the baby on the um in the face and neck area.

And you know, as we all know throughout history, rats carry diseases. Um but they couldn't afford the hospital. They couldn't they it is this is so difficult to even talk. I mean, it's unbelievable that it still chokes me up. Mrs. Kenny and her neighbors tried desperately to have the public health nurse visit her home, but to no avail. The baby died. And then it was all over the front pages of the newspaper, but all written in terms of what this meant for the chances of Mrs. Kenny or whatever other woman was, you know, that the coverage was centered on. every loss or tragedy or triumph was always put in terms of their chances in the in the race, you know, um not in terms of what kind of a system do we have where someone's baby can die of rat bites in the first place. It's hard to say how many women had babies specifically for this race.

When they talked to reporters, everyone always said the same thing. I would have had this child anyway. I tend to believe Mrs. Bignado and many of the other Catholic families in the race. I don't think Mrs. Biggnado was ever playing the game. She'd been cranking out a baby a year long before she heard a word about the derby. So, the whole contest was just an added bonus to her. But then there was Mrs. Kenny, who was obviously playing to win and said outright that she was trying to make babies. And then you have Mrs. Clark. Mrs. Clark's situation was the most unsettling. It came out that Mrs. Clark's lover had drawn up a contract with her where he could get half her winnings if he impregnated her enough. Mrs. Clark's lover was also abusive. He'd given her a black eye, broke her door down, chased her out into the street after a fight.

So maybe she didn't want to be pregnant as many times as she was. Maybe she was forced to. Here's Elizabeth. You sort of wonder, was she basically abused? Was she taken advantage of? Because if you think about also the kind of power dynamic that Miller set up between men and women and at that time like if your partner or if your husband or your lover thought that if he got you pregnant over and over that you might win millions of dollars. And she was a very young woman. And um so you were sort of insinuating that maybe these these women might have been coerced or you know I mean I don't know. I mean, I think it doesn't take a lot for someone to put together with this young woman and so many babies and with this huge prize. In 1933, it looked like Mrs.

Bignado was going to win. Then in 1934, headlines read that Mrs. Kenny had taken the lead. In 1935, another woman, Mrs. Timlick, quote, sped to the front. In 1936, Madame X was listed as a late entry, tied for second. All the while, the physical toll for these mothers was enormous. Mrs. Bnado suffered a hemorrhage near the end of her final pregnancy, and many of the STO Derby mothers were in and out of the hospital for operations and transfusions, and all three mothers suffered the emotional toll of having stillborn babies during the race. Most of the women couldn't afford to have their children in hospitals and so the infant mortality rate of the derby babies was six times that of the national average. 34% of these babies died. But aside from an article or two, again, the press only saw these deaths in the context of the race. The headline in a 1936 Montreal paper was, "Stillborn infant may assure

prize." Underneath, "A stillborn child may assure Mrs. Matthew Kenny the prize in the stork derby under the will of late Charles Vance Miller. Her nearest competitor is believed to be Mrs. Joseph Begnado. The race ended on Halloween 1936, but at first it wasn't clear who had won. Here's how our three competitors stood on that date. Mrs. Kenny claimed to have had 11 children. Mrs. Clark said she had 11 as well. Mrs. Spado had nine, but Mrs. Kenny and Mrs. Clark didn't walk away with the prize that easily. With Mrs. Clark, the scandalous one who had tied for the largest number of children, the lawyers in charge of the estate, had some questions about her case and raised the question of whether children born out of wedlock should count. This is where it was clear that there had been a huge oversight. Nobody had actually set rules for this contest at its beginning.

Remember, Miller explained this whole contest in two sentences in his will. So, as the court saw it, there were nuances that needed to be figured out, rules to be set, but of course, only after the fact of everything, after the babies had been born and the blood transfusions administered. A massive multi-way court battle broke out. All of the contestants had to go to court to prove that they had the most children. Each woman had to lawyer up and go up against the lawyers for the executives of the estate. The fight went on for 2 years, and of course, now the rules would be determined in front of an audience. To figure out if her illegitimate children would count, Mrs.

Clark and her lover's abusive sexual history was scrutinized on the stand. He recounted his physical violence with her, admitted to giving her a black eye, and busting down the door to her house and to the contract he drew up. When he mentioned the contract, the courtroom burst out into rockus, mocking laughter. And in fact, the lawyers regularly threw in crude jokes during the trial, soliciting giggles from the audience. In the end, it was decided that illegitimate children could not be counted within the derby. And so, Mrs.

Clark's number got knocked down to five. She was out of the running. Then came Mrs. Kenny, the one who believed she was the winner and had carved statues of Miller. She'd also tied for 11, but apparently two of her children had not been properly registered. Probably because Mrs. Kenny was too poor to deliver her children in hospitals. She'd had them at home instead. That brought her count down to nine children, but no big deal. She was still in the running. Then the lawyers pointed out three of her children had been still born. Quick warning, I'm about to talk about a lot of traumatic births. Until this point, everyone had assumed that still children would count for the derby. Again, this hadn't been in the rules, and after all, these women had carried these children to term. But now, at Mrs. Kenny's trial, lawyers for the executives of the estate started questioning that. And so, Mrs. Kenny had

to sit while a pack of lawyers argued around her about how legitimate her dead children were. They brought up doctors and had them give graphic descriptions of the still births, if each baby breathed, if its heart ever beat. She had to relive the moments all over again. Mrs. Kenny cried throughout this and eventually ran from the courtroom. It was just all too much for her. And at one point, she left the courtroom just screaming that she was being treated like a dog. And you know, there never was a sensitive portrait of this woman. It was all sort of caricature style. So, I think the coverage just continued in that way. You know, the newspaper report said she was shrieking, insinuated that she was drunk, and said, quote, "During the scuffle, Mrs. Kenny dealt at least half a dozen hard blows on the arms and bodies of the officers who showed great restraint in their tactics. In the end, it didn't help her case." "The child

born dead is not in truth, the child," the judge wrote. "It was that which might have been a child." Her count was knocked down to six. Mrs. Kenny was out of the running. Lastly, there was Mrs. Bignado, who again had nine children, but one was still born and another was unregistered. Mrs. Bignnado suggested that there was some conspiracy with this. She said she'd registered the child herself at the Parliament buildings. She was quoted as saying, "If they can't find the record, it'll be just too bad for them up there. I will tear the parliament buildings apart before I give up. I'm supposed to be in the hospital now with another baby coming, but I'll stay on my feet until I drop or this is cleared up.

But her protestations didn't sway the judge, and she eventually did give up. After all, she did have a job and almost a dozen mouths to feed. At the end of 2 years, none of the three favorites wound up at the finish line. Four other women with nine babies each won. Each of these women walked away with what today would be about$2 million Canadian dollars or one a.5 million US. Most were late comers who really only became candidates when the heavy hitters were eliminated. And these four women had something else in common.

Here's Elizabeth. I mean, the families that won were white Protestant families who were essentially middle class and who had homes that when the reporters went into them and described the homes, it was always, you know, the clean and tidy home and the well-kept this and the, you know, the forerunners through the whole race were workingclass people and unemployed people and they had varied ethnic backgrounds. Maybe it wasn't a coincidence that these women didn't win. Maybe they didn't win because they didn't have the means to navigate the system as elegantly. Or maybe the judge who decided the contest had his finger on the scale. In its last four years, the public's view of the contest had turned as people saw how it played out. It had encouraged the poorest women to have the most children. That set alarm bells off for a big group of people in what was a growing and popular movement at the

time. Eugenics. Teddy Roosevelt was into eugenics. Alexander Graanbell, Web Dubo, even Helen Keller. A refresher. Eugenicist believed that in order to improve the human species, some people shouldn't be allowed to reproduce. And yes, that's just as creepy as it sounds. At the end of the contest, they came forth in droves to say that the money shouldn't be given to any women. Here's Elizabeth. The social commentary was around, you know, who are these people and should they be reproducing? They're not Canadianborn. They're poor. They're not the right people. A minister, Reverend Clare Silox, submitted written testimony against the participants as quote unspeakable women and argued that these poor children would eventually reduce wages and lower the standard of living.

An editor for a Canadian newspaper said that the contest attracted quote those whose progyny would be of little use to the state. Elizabeth and Karen believe that this environment influenced the judge, that he eliminated on technicalities all the contestants who had not made the right kinds of babies. Here's Karen. Yeah, I do believe that it was intentional. I mean because they went to such lengths to discredit those that were the others. The French Canadian Catholic, the woman with the illegitimate children, the Italian, you know, uh Catholic with a immigrant husband. It became a platform for them to send the message of to to use a a modern phrase, stay in your lane, like immigrants know their place.

They were definitely trying to send a message. After the lawsuit took place, Mrs. Clark and Mrs. Kenny both filed appeals and both received settlements for the equivalent of $200,000 Canadian dollars each. Mrs. McNado, the immigrant translator, walked away with nothing. Ladies and gentlemen, the anti pasta bar is now open. Last December, I shuffled around a table piled high with pushcido and provolone. Santa came into the banquet hall and little kids ran past me to get their gifts from him. I was at the 89th annual Begnado holiday party, which as you can imagine is bigger than most holiday family gatherings. Mrs.

Bnado, remember, had 12 children, and they had children who also had children who by now have had children, too. One of her great granddaughters gives me a rough estimate. There are over 150 people now who are direct descendants of Grace. About 110 of the descendants and their families are in a reception hall giving generous air kisses, then turning, screaming, "Oh my god, Uncle Paulie." Everybody kitsy kitsy everybody. Among the attendees, many teachers, an agent for the cast of The Young and the Restless, a few writers, and a former mayor. So take that, eugenicists. But talking to a bunch of the BNA, not that many of them know much about the derby, and those who do don't seem to care. But does it make you mad that Grace didn't get any money?

No. Life's not all about money. But no, I don't I don't think so. From what I hear, she was just that amazing woman with an huge heart, and I don't think she would get angry. Her oldest daughter, Mildred, told me a story that might answer that question. you know, her her mother made a huge b pot of sauce on the stove for Sunday dinner and and she asked Mildred and one of the boys to put it out on the back porch to cool off. And when they went out to get it, it was gone. And Mildred was very angry. And her mother said, "But just think, Mildred, somebody's having such a wonderful dinner tonight." After the derby, Grace told the whole family that they weren't ever to talk about that dumb contest ever again. but she otherwise seemed unfazed.

She continued having more kids, even took in an orphan from off the street. It's true that the chaos of the stor derby turned her into a laughingtock and rocked Toronto for over a decade. But a century later, it's mostly forgotten. Just a funny old tale from 100 years ago. Charles Vance Miller didn't have any children, and unless you preface it with, "Remember that crazy stor derby guy?" Nobody remembers his name. But more than 100 people get together every year to share stories about Grace Bnado. There's more than one way to leave a legacy. Stephanie Fu, she used to be one of the producers here at our show. She's the author of the book What My Bones Know, a memoir of healing from complex trauma.

Coming up, something said in the middle of a race between one racer and another that eats at both of them for years after. It's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues. It's American Life from Ira Glass. Today's program the long fuse. We never really use sound effects on our show. Isn't those totally worth it? Anyway, today's show, The Long Fuse, is about people saying things that end up having consequences for years after we arrived at act three of our show. Act three, meatball and chain. This last story is about three little words uttered at 25 miles an hour during a sporting event and the years and years of feelings that those words unleashed.

Jared Marcel tells what happened. Ian Dilly was 21 when this whole thing happened. He was competing in a big bike race, a national championship. It was in Gainesville. Ian's from Austin, and when they got there, he saw that the roads were pretty flat, just like home. Plus, it was humid, but not too bad, just like home. So, he was like, "Hey, I have a good shot at this thing." When the race starts, everyone comes out blazing. Everybody was racing really aggressively in that race. Um there was just a lot of attacks. There'd be a lead group of five riders and then it would become 10 and then 15 and 20 and and then a group would come out of that of five riders and it was kind of like this amoeba that kept kind of like breaking up and coming back together. Ian wasn't considered one of the favorites, but on this day in this race he was better than most. He kept attacking, taking a lead, staying near

the front the whole time. And then at one point, he realizes, "Oh man, I'm first." Now, you'd think being in first place is a good thing, but for the majority of a bike race, competitors play hot potato with the top spot. Chances are, if you stay in first early on for too long, you're probably going to lose. No, you're definitely going to lose because the person in first takes on all the wind. In cycling, this is a big thing. The front runner basically works the hardest, and that makes the person that's pedaling behind them have to work a lot less hard. I mean, scientifically, it's like 30 to 50% less hard. That's why in bike races, you see bikers lined up behind the lead guy. I I remember like bending my head over kind of as I was pedaling as hard as I could and looking behind me and um and yeah, I just saw um this kind of white and black checkered jersey coming across to me and that was that was Mike. Mike Freriedman.

Ian knew who the favorites at this race were and this Mike Freriedman wasn't one of them. And so I just sprinted as hard as I could. He would like claw his way back to me and I just couldn't believe it. like he seemed so done, but like he he just he was just really tenacious. Like he just kept coming back. Ian was worried now if he kept the lead, blocking all the wind for Mike, he was going to get tired. Mike might burst ahead and win. So Ian was like, "Let him get in front for a bit." I started like coasting and then we were kind of just like coasting and he would look back and the group would be like getting closer to catching us and um and he said uh you can win.

You can win. Three words. I knew instantly like what it meant. He means if I stop attacking him and and let him stay with me um and let him sit in my draft, then when we get to the finish line, he won't sprint me. He'll let me win the bike race. Now, in cycling, this type of gentleman's agreement happens all the time. Competitors will temporarily agree to a truce so they can conserve energy and stay ahead of the pack. It's a strategy. Sometimes this happens at the end, which could end up deciding who wins. Like, hey, there's two of us here at the top. I won't sprint on you if you take on the win resistance for me. We can beat everyone else. Ian went for it.

I just put my head down and went as hard as I could. I mean, I felt like I was just going so fast. And we had um we had a like a a motorcycle like a motorcycle referee that would uh follow the race and they they come up and give you time splits on a um they'll either just tell you or sometimes they'll have like a whiteboard that they'll write the gap between you and the chasers. And so they kept coming up and it would be you know you have 20 seconds and then it was like 30 seconds and then 40 seconds and like the gap just kept going out and out and out. I mean, I remember with like one lap to go and just like feeling so happy like I'd already won the race. And then so we we go around and then we're coming towards the finish line and we're we're getting ready to take a kind of the final left-hand turn to the finish. Um, and I turned to him and I was like, "Yeah, you you remember our deal, right?" And then Mike just

started sprinting and I just remember watching him come by on my left and my leg started cramping as we went up that hill and I was just like, I can't believe this is happening. It felt like this dream just all of a sudden kind of turned into a nightmare and I didn't win the bike race. Mike did. Mike won. disbelief quickly turned to total rage. I was like so upset. Remember riding up next to him and hitting him on the back and yelling something like what the first place takes home a jersey with stars and stripes like Captain America.

I've watched them put Mike's medal on and then uh they gave him a jersey and then traditionally like everybody um raises their arms on the podium um after the national anthem plays and I was standing right next to Mike and I didn't I wouldn't hold his hand. I didn't raise my arm and that that was like the photo of the race. Ian was not having it. He immediately told the reporter what happened. He was like, "Mike cheated. He cheated." His side of the story was that um there was no deal that I was just confused. Like like when he said like you can win this race, he was like no no no. Like what I was saying was like if we work together, if you stop attacking me, you can win. Stop attacking me. stop trying to get rid of me. You can win if you just keep pulling. Um, and and don't let this group behind catch us. As if to say, "Hey, man, you're doing well. If you keep it up, you might even win this

thing. I said you could win. Not that I'd let you win." And so life goes on. Ian races professionally for a bit, but gets injured and becomes a journalist. Of course, he covers cycling. Mike becomes an Olympian. The whole time, they're sort of circling each other's orbits, but avoiding crossing paths. And annoyingly, everyone in the racing world really likes Mike. He had this nickname as like Meatball, and he had a blog. And um there was a lot of sort of like love for meatball. And I was a little bit resentful about that. I was always thought like they don't know the real Mike like he's a cheater and he go he goes back on his word and like I would tell people or people would ask me about like what happened in that race and I'd be like well Mike's a a cheater and they'd just be like well doesn't seem like something he would do you know and I'd be like no you don't know people would sort of look

at me sideways when I was like I I hate Mike Friedman be like nobody hates Mike Freriedman what are you talking about. It's like saying you hate Mr. Rogers, right? Like Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, as time passes, this race stays like a thorn in the inside. I realize like saying that sounds like a high school football player like talking about competing in the state title game or whatever else. And then I totally get like how kind of like ridiculous and small that sounds as a as an adult, but it's it's weird. It's just weird how like how you cling to those things. Then one day about 15 years later, Ian's covering a race in Colorado near where Mike lived. He's on the tour bus hanging out. And then one of the guys on the bus. I was like, I'm going to give Mike a call and see if he'll he'll come to the start line and and hang out with us on the bus before we start. And um Mike came onto the bus. He we didn't even

like look at each other and then he left. And then when he came back, I was um standing outside the bus and he had like a tray of coffees and he handed me one and um and I think he was just like, you know, I I just want to talk to you about that day. I think about that race all the time. And and I was like, man, me too. And I remember seeing his lower lip shaking, just shaking. And that is Mike Freriedman. That day on the bus, Mike didn't fully fess up and apologize. For Mike, it's complicated. Here's how he remembers those final moments of the race. I wasn't even thinking. I was just, man, we made this left-hand turn and the finish line is right, you know, within sight, you know, 250 m. And before I knew it, man, I was sprinting.

Even going up to the line, I knew what I was doing. I was was wrong, but I could I couldn't stop. Do you know why you did what you did or have a better understanding of why you did it? Well, I think there I I was 17 years old at the time. So, you know, I I just Yeah, I don't know. I just It's just kind of one of those things that I don't have an answer. You know, I I try my best, but I don't always do my best kind of thing. It wasn't pre-planned. And it wasn't done in a way to be nefarious. It wasn't I'm going to tell this guy I'm going to do this in this sprint. It wasn't done in that way. It wasn't done that way at all. That's it.

You know, I mean, that's it. That's the only time I've ever cheated ever at a bicycle race ever. He immediately regretted it. Did it change how you saw yourself as a athlete, as a competitor? It did change how I saw myself. You know, this is just I don't have anything else like that that I can definitively say affected me the way that this had. That was the one thing that I knew, you know, like that I had done wrong. It ate at him. He didn't race for 2 years. Mike didn't even tell anyone for a really long time. Fessing up that he cheated would mean that he was just that, a cheater. Not a kid who lost himself for a minute in a race.

Dude, I didn't admit that this happened until like, you know, I was with someone that I wanted to marry, you know, and then there was one other person that I told why I was drunk and he's my best friend. It never meant as much to anyone else as it did to him. But he couldn't let it go. He thought about it for years. After his cycling career was done, his life sort of tanked. His marriage ended, hit bottom. He was living in a camper in his friend's land when he realized he wanted to reach out to Ian, that he missed his opportunity on the bus a year back. Here's Ian. He was moving back um to to Colorado. He was driving back and he called me and that's when he said, "Um, yeah, I mean, you're you're right. It was a deal." and and I'm sorry um that I crossed the finish line first that I didn't hold up my my end of the bargain. Mike also wanted to give Ian the jersey, the Captain America one.

He'd stuffed it deep in a drawer all these years. So, they agreed to meet up. He drives like this really like revved up like uh I think it's a Jeep or a pickup truck or something and you could like hear it like rumbling down the street like you could hear him pull up and I mean I was like kind of nervous and he came up and he was holding the jersey and um he gave it to me right away. He looked me in the eyes and he said sorry and I said thank you. like he had talked about like he had I think he had even called like the governing body and asked them if there's any way that the actual results could be changed and like um yeah he he was just like every effort to make it right. I was just like wow like when does that ever happen in someone's life?

I don't I mean I don't even know when I've ever done that, you know, like just like made something that I did wrong right like decades later. This event set off by a few words had just ballooned and ballooned in their heads for about 15 years. Even though in the grand scheme of things, this race didn't matter. It's not like it was the reason Mike made it or the thing that ended Ian's career. And fixing it took something that's so simple. Three words, you were right. Jared Marcel, he produces WNYC's local news podcast, NYC Now. New episodes every Saturday. Ian Dilly, the racer who got cheated out of his victory, wrote about this in Bicycling magazine. That's how we heard about the story. He has a book called The Cyclist Bucket List. The other racer, Mike Freriedman, now runs a nonprofit teaching kids about bikes called Pedaling Minds. Today's uh program is a rerun. And when we reached out to Mike,

he said he regretted replying, "I don't know." When Jared asked him why he did it, he said he does know why, and it was self-doubt. He wrote us in an email. quote, "In the heat of the moment, I made a poor decision and paid for it with my character, honor, integrity, and self-respect. Today, as I write, I feel selfish. My apologizing to him when I did so long after is inherently a selfish act, but the only way to truly free my heart was to admit it." He said, "Apologies are powerful and they do matter. How long do I have to wait for you honey before a girl like me can move on? Oh, baby, tell me how long do I have to wait for you honey before I can. Our program was produced today by Diane Woo. The people who put our show together includes Ben Calhoun, Zoe Chase, Dana Chib, Sean Cole, Viva Dornfeld, Neil Drumming, Jared Floyd, Damen Grave, Mickey Meek, Stone Nelson, Katherine Rayondo, Ben Failen, Nadia

Raymond, Robin Seamian, Alyssa Ship, Lily Sullivan, Christopher Sutala, Matt Tierney, and Nancy Updike. Our managing editors for today's program are Susan Burton, and David Kesnbal. Help on today's rerun from Angela Jervasi. Special thanks today to Talammy Sloum, Chuck Long, Chris Baitman, David Goldenberg, Veronica Simmons, Astred Lang, Brandon Cppley, and Michelle Solomon. Jennifer Lameasure, who you heard at the beginning of the show, has a book, Inscrable Eating, about Americans perceptions of Asian food with a whole chapter on MSG. Our website, thisamericanlife.org, where you can listen to our archive of over 850 episodes for absolutely free. This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the public radio exchange. Thanks as always to our program's co-founder, Mr. Tory Malatia.

You know, I called him earlier today and when I called him, I don't know. He was exercising in the middle of his sprint intervals. I mean, I can't really like I mean, man, the timing of this. I'm Glass back next week with more stories of this American life. Yeah. I'm in awful state, baby. You said you love me so, but I just don't know how long I can wait. Next week on the podcast of This American Life, Micah was killed in a hit and run. And when her parents found out that the driver was out of jail and charges were dropped, they called the investigator who said, "I will try and get back to you as soon as I can, but to be honest with you, every time I try and seem to do something lately, it ends up going to poop and I end up." So, Micah's parents take matters into their own hands. Did some extraordinary things.

That's next week on the podcast or your local public radio station.

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "The Long Fuse | This American Life | Episode 668"?

Ira Glass (Host), Jennifer Lameasure (Guest), Howard Steel (Guest), Michael Blanding (Guest), Anna Steel (Guest), Lily Sullivan (Guest), Elizabeth Wilton (Guest), Karen Nolan (Guest).

What is "The Long Fuse | This American Life | Episode 668" about?

The main topic explores the origins of the misconception regarding monosodium glutamate (MSG) as a harmful substance linked to "Chinese Restaurant Syndrome," traced back to a single letter published in the New England Journal of Medicine. The narrative delves into how this myth has persisted over decades despite scientific evidence proving MSG's safety, highlighting broader themes of race and…

What is mentioned in this This American Life episode?

13 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including This American Life, Jennifer Lameasure, New England Journal of Medicine, Howard Steel, Robert Ho Manqu Quac, Charles Vance Miller. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "The Long Fuse | This American Life | Episode 668"?

The episode runs 1 h 6 min; the transcript is about 10,908 words in 77 timestamped sections.

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About this transcript: the episode's spoken words as captioned on YouTube, split into timestamped sections. Reclip.Me locates every person, work and idea in the text, keeps the time it is first named, and quotes the words around it verbatim. Last updated January 24, 2026.