Transcript

Dare To Fly: How Martha McSally Transformed Fear into Fearless Leadership

From Tommy Mello · Episode page · Watch on YouTube

· 35 min · 7,875 words · 76 timestamped sections

This is the full, timestamped transcript of "Dare To Fly: How Martha McSally Transformed Fear into Fearless Leadership", an episode of Tommy Mello published January 9, 2026 (35 min, about 7,875 words). It mentions 5 people, works and ideas, including Martha Msali, Dare to Fly, A-10 Warthog, Msali v. Rumsfeld, Arizona Community Foundation.

What this episode is about

Martha McSally, the first American woman to fly an Air Force fighter jet in combat and a former US senator, shares her journey of overcoming barriers and transforming fear into fearless leadership. Drawing from her extensive military experience and subsequent political career, she emphasizes the importance of resilience, empowering others to embrace challenges and pursue their goals without limitations.

Key takeaways

  • Martha Msali turned legislative limitations into her launchpad, proving that rebellion can lead to groundbreaking achievements.
  • From cookies to combat, every unexpected detour holds potential; Martha redefined her path with fierce determination and courage.
  • Embracing vulnerability, Martha transformed grief and rebellion into strength, showing us that our struggles can forge resilience.
  • Beneath combat boots, lies an adventure enthusiast; Martha navigates both the skies and souls through nature-driven experiences.
  • Martha’s mantra: Change begins with bold dreams; she literally willed her identity into existence in a sky-high defiance.

Who speaks in this episode?

What is discussed, and when

  1. – 5:00: Martha Msali
  2. – 10:00: A-10 Warthog, Msali v. Rumsfeld
  3. – 20:00: Arizona Community Foundation, Dare to Fly
  4. – 25:00: Dare to Fly
  5. – 30:00: Dare to Fly
  6. – 35:00: Martha Msali

Notable quotes from "Dare To Fly: How Martha McSally Transformed Fear into Fearless Leadership"

  • Ambitious, empowering, brave, Martha Msali is a former US senator and military fighter pilot. She was the first American woman to fly an Air Force fighter jet in combat and the first.
    about Martha Msali · at
  • Allowed Martha to become the first female pilot to fly in combat, operating the A-10 Warthog in support of Operation Southern Watch in Iraq. It took two more decades for…
    about A-10 Warthog · at
  • That and then legacy I mean I have a scholarship fund right now and it's called the Dare to Fly scholarship I partner with the Arizona Community Foundation and my The intent is…
    about Dare to Fly · at

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

Books & papers

Companies & orgs

  • Arizona Community Foundation — Company · 1 mention · first at
    Scholarship fund right now and it's called the Dare to Fly scholarship I partner with the Arizona Community Foundation and my The intent is to find people who are diamonds in…

Products & tech

Concepts & topics

  • Msali v. Rumsfeld — Concept · 1 mention · first at
    Went off base, even though male service members weren't similarly expected to adopt local religious dress. In Msali v.

Full transcript with timestamps

So, I got to the Air Force Academy and I found out it was against the law for women to be fighter pilots and it just pissed me off and I took that was where I took my rebellious spirit and I was like, "Well, that's what I'm actually going to do."

Ambitious, empowering, brave, Martha Msali is a former US senator and military fighter pilot. She was the first American woman to fly an Air Force fighter jet in combat and the first woman to command a US fighter squadron.

Don't ever tell me you can't do something cuz you're a girl. That's exactly what I'm going to go fight. Over her 26-year military career, Martha flew hundreds of combat hours in the A-10 Warhog during her deployments in the Middle East and Afghanistan.

Oftentimes, the very things that almost crush us are the things that can help strengthen us and propel us.

She earned the Bronze Star Medal in multiple air medals, retiring as a colonel. She then represented Arizona in the House of Representatives from 2015 to 2019 and served as US Senator from 2019 to 2020. I've dedicated my life to protecting our country and ensuring a safer world for our allies.

Get ready. This interview will encourage you to embrace fear, transform doubt, and reach new heights.

Welcome back to the Mellow Millionaire. Today I've got Martha Msali with us. She's a former US Senator, US House of Representatives, Arizona, former fighter pilot of the US Air Force. Her impressive military and political career have made her an enduring icon of courage conviction and barrier-breaking leadership. It's great to have you.

All right. Well, thanks for that intro. Yeah. So, you're living the best life these days. You uh how often do you work out and go hiking and all that?

Uh a lot. I'm on Martha 3.0 right now. You just talked about Martha 1.0 and 2.0. So, yeah, I'm in the private sector. I'm on the board of a few companies. I'm doing keynote speaking. I'm leading adventure experiences. uh doing some online coaching. So yeah, people I you know I'd go give keynotes and people would be like, "Let's go deeper with you. How do we do that?" And so I was like, "Oh, you want to go into the Grand Canyon with a big heavy backpack on your back? Let's let's go let's go deeper." So I I started this uh additional part of my business to bring people on adventure experiences. So did Machu Picchu, Inca Trail to Machu Picchu this summer. Um got another Grand Canyon one coming up. It's just a few times a year. I mean, you know, like if you're gonna there's so much noise and we're so busy and especially driven people, driven entrepreneurs, driven leaders, there's just so many distractions and,

you know, ultimately the growth comes from being able to like create the space, but that's hard to do when we're in the middle of it all. And so like get it, you know, get to where there's no cell phone coverage, get out in nature, move your body, get some light into your eyes, you know, get around some inspiration, have those deeper connections with yourself, with others, with God, the divine, with nature, right? That's when you can really like get the [ __ ] out of it and like have those real conversations around a campfire, if you're allowed to light fires, depending on where we go. So that yeah, that's the purpose of of that part.

Well, what's a story from flight school or the Air Force that fundamentally shaped who you are today? Well, let's see. So, I would say um I went off to the Air Force Academy when I was 18 and I had no idea what I was doing. Like anybody who has teenagers who's listening to this, you know, you're making decisions at 17. I was clueless. I mean, on, you know, if I had made my decision on Monday, I had my own chocolate chip cookie business and I was going to go to college and continue my cookie business and, you know, who knows, you know, I would have I would have been u poisoning America with sugar right now. But instead I end up flying fighter jets. Um I I had lost my dad when I was 12. So that was deeply deeply impactful. Like just rocked my world. He suddenly passed away. He told me to make him proud before he died. Like it I was dealing with the grief and I was you know and I was trying to make my dead

father proud. And you know the journey was not an easy one, right? So, I I I went to the military in part because I knew I was very driven, but I knew I also could go either way because I hadn't unpacked my [ __ ] yet, and I was a little volatile and rebellious. And I just thought um it could give me some guard rails for me to grow up. I wouldn't have used those words at the time, but just to do do something meaningful and purposeful uh you know, while I was, you know, continuing to, you know, continuing to drive, you know, and and uh do something meaningful. So anyway, I mean I had no idea I was doing but I didn't want to be a pilot. Like I was motion sick as a kid and so I got to the Air Force Academy. I was in the what ninth class that had women and I found out it was against the law for women to be fighter pilots. And it just pissed me off and I took that was where I took my rebellious spirit and I was like well

that's what I'm actually going to do. I'm going to I'm going to become a fighter pilot. And people are like it's against the law. I'm like I don't care. We live in America. Laws change. And so I just I literally willed that into existence for my life. Like I didn't say I might be. I hope I'll be. I was like I am a fighter pilot. Like I this is what I'm going to be. It was my identity. I just took it on even though it looked impossible. And there was all these barriers and I made I had nothing to do with the change when they uh eventually like eight plus years later when they repealed the law but then they didn't change the policy and then eventually they changed the policy. But I just kept blooming where I was planted and I kept making decisions to keep the dream open.

The jet doesn't care if you're a boy or a girl. Just cares if you fly, you know, fly well and shoot straight. So, I, you know, I got the phone call saying, "You still want to be a fighter pilot? You know, we've identified you, you know, you earned one and uh you're going to be in the group that goes first." And I was like, "Fuck yeah, let's go. Let's go." I mean, it to it took a couple years before I eventually, you know, trained in A10. So, then I picked the A-10, brought me to Arizona and Tucson to fly the A-10. I had a choice of any fighter.

So yeah, another moment I remember like yesterday is when they cleared me for takeoff in the A10 for the first time and there were no simulators and there's no two seat models and I'd never flown the plane before. You you went through three weeks of training. You had to learn everything about the plane. Basically had to build it, you know, all the electronics, the hydraulics, the like everything. You had to deal with any emergency, all the checklists, but it was all kind of fake. Like you know, you would just verbally say, "This is what I would do if the engine was on fire." And then your engines are revving, you're taxiing down the end of the runway, and they clear you for takeoff. And I just remember like, I feel like I'm going to throw up. Like, I've never flown this plane before. It was almost 10 years from when I entered the Air Force Academy to when I was clear for takeoff, right? And I had a

decision and that moment, right? What am I going to do? Am I gonna like throw up in my mouth and taxi back in and say like, "This is crazy. I'm not doing this." Or am I going to take off afraid? So that was a pivotal moment for me to like a lot of people think courage is, you know, where you don't feel fear, but courage is actually when you feel the fear and you choose to do things afraid anyway. So I took off afraid. If you're really called to do this, then like do it afraid. That's the only that's the only way you'll feel courage. Hey guys, I wanted to jump in and give you some context here. And in the 1980s when Martha was in flight school, the Department of Defense had a combat exclusion policy that prevented women from flying in direct combat roles, especially in fighter aircraft. It wasn't until 1995 that the Air Force allowed Martha to become the first female pilot to fly in combat, operating

the A-10 Warthog in support of Operation Southern Watch in Iraq. It took two more decades for Martha's advocacy to pay off. In 2015, the Secretary of Defense finally opened all combat roles in the US military to women, a landmark shift in American military history. Martha's fight for equality didn't stop at combat roles. She also challenged military policies that treated female service members differently overseas. While stationed in Saudi Arabia, US military policy required women to wear a traditional abaya, a headtotoe robe, went off base, even though male service members weren't similarly expected to adopt local religious dress. In Msali v.

Rumsfeld, she sued the Department of Defense, claiming that the policy treated women as inferior to men, which led to the policy being changed and Congress passing legislation that prohibited similar DoD requirements in the future. All right, history lesson over. Let's get back to the episode. So, what decision-making framework did you develop that you now translate into leadership coaching? Because I'll tell you what, leaders are built. And this is the one thing the world needs is more leaders. I mean, I look at this business, I look at every business and everybody's saying, "How do I get the next leaders? How do I get the the right people to actually lead from upfront and actually like look after people and understand it's a privilege?"

Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. No, it leaders are like they're not born, right? They're built and it's it's like going to the gym and doing reps, right? So there are tools that people can do to become a leader and to develop the leaders below them. Um when I'm giving keynote speeches these days, I focus on a theme of how to be unbreakable. Be an unbreakable leader. And what does that mean? Doesn't mean that you're not taking hits. It doesn't mean you're not failing. It doesn't mean that challenges are not coming. What it means is that you have the capacity to deal with anything that is thrown your way. And you are showing up authentically.

You are not reacting. You're not acting out of fear. You're not acting out of something that you haven't unpacked from your own past that that you're still walking around with, right? And you are truly, you know, showing up to your team, leading people through their fear to bend and not break, you know, with whatever challenge comes your way. And so I walk people through a framework, but you know, the the theme of it is lead yourself first, right? Like leadership starts with leading yourself first. And a lot of times when we're talking about leadership, we want to give people external strategies and kind of operational stuff or tactics. And my approach is from the inside out, not the outside in. And the best leaders that I've worked for, the best leaders I've worked with, the be when I'm in my best higher self as a leader, it's because first I am truly connected with who I truly am. Like my zone of genius, um,

which is uh Gay Hendrick's uh words that he used. What is it that I uniquely am gifted with that I am bringing to this to this company to this to this team and not trying to be somebody else not trying to operate outside your zone of genius but truly like connect with your authentic self like the essence of who you truly are right not not what somebody else wants you to be not trying to pretend because that's when people get into imposttor syndrome and they get into like whatever in their head is when they're actually trying to be something they're not right so I I bring everybody through it's it's the wedge framework wedge is my call sign when I was in the military And we can't go through all of it today, but the first the the the W stands for who are you? And really making sure that that leader is connected with their true essence of what they bring to the table. Is it innovation? Is it is it vision? Is it

followthrough? Is it whatever it is like those go through a process so that you are you are very aware. I I literally have like 15 words on my wall. It starts with I am unbreakable. I am courageous. I am in integrity. I am generous. I am growing. There's like 15 of them. I went through an exercise and I bring people through it like how do you connect with the who you are when somebody asks you who you are? It's not I'm an entrepreneur. It's not I'm uh you know the COO. It I mean that's what we say in this world, right? That's we usually are focused on roles. But I wish people could like have under their title I'm an innovator. You know I'm a follow-through person. I'm a systems guy. You know I you know I am I'm generous. I'm a team builder. I'm whatever it is. So, um, go through if if this were your 80th birthday toast or your eulogy. What words would you want people to use that actually capture who you are? Uh, when

you can be the best leader is when you're truly grounded in yourself. You're being honest about where you are. You're even honest about what you're afraid of, you know, right? And and you're leading teams as other human beings authentically. They're not they're not robots. They're people.

That's great. I really appreciate that. It's figuring out who you are and what your strengths are and

and in areas that you, you know, you just feel expansive in, right? And I mean, you keep pushing yourself so you get better and better. It's not that you're just resting in your strengths,

right? But we each have unique attributes that are strengths of ours. So yeah, why would we be if you're a quick start, why would you put somebody in charge of the spreadsheets and the follow through and the project? Like not only are they not are they going to suck at it, it's going to feel contractive to them. like they're going to get out of bed in the morning and be like, "Oh god, you know, I got to work." And then you think they're showing up as the best version of themselves on your team. No way. They're they're looking for another job probably or they're hiding, you know, and then they feel bad because they're not, you know, just like figure out what those strengths are and put people in the right seat on the bus and make sure you have all all the right, you know, the understanding of what attributes are needed for each seat on the bus.

A lot of people that tell me that, they're like, "Dude, I just want to do what you did." I'm like, it's like I I enjoy it, but I had to work for 20 years to kind of learn how to handle it, you know? That's why lottery winners go broke right away, cuz it's like all of a sudden people start showing up in their lives that are like, "Who are you? I you went to grade school, you know?"

Yeah. I think the other part of that, not to go off on a too much of a tangent, but I do believe that our outer world matches our inner world. And often times lottery winners go broke because they don't think they deserve it. And their inner world is still one of scarcity. for their outer world. They end up making decisions that that have them lose this abundance and they get back to matching their inner world.

I got three questions I ask on every and we still got plenty of time, but um so what's one piece of game-changing advice you wish you knew in your 20s?

Oh man, I wish I understood that everything doesn't have to be the hard brute force. work harder than everybody else and like brute force your way through every wall. Like sometimes you can go over the wall or around the wall or blow up the wall. Like you I just thought everything had to be hard when I was younger and I was going to outdo out work out persevere like everybody and and that served me until it didn't right and I now real and I had to go through all that to kind of get to a better understanding now where I was like all right I've graduated from those lessons.

It doesn't mean you're not working. It means that you create the space to connect with who you are and kind of get inspired as to what action to take, right? And if you if you're able to like sit with yourself and kind of allow that spaciousness to get the divine downloads or whatever you know whether it's your right brain intuition the answer comes to you in the shower like you got to create the space if you're trying to solve something like ah that's the person I need to call like take take inspired action instead of brute forcing everything uh in order to achieve uh you know it worked for me. I think I've tried to take the shortcuts and not meaning like you got to do hard work if you want to get in shape, but the shortcuts where I bring an apple to my teachers. I said, "Listen, I'm getting a scholarship, although I was getting a $2,000 PEL grant." And I say, "If I fall below a 4.0, I'm going to lose this

money. So, can you let me know I'll work with a teacher's assistant? I'll get a tutor." And I'm telling you, so many times I was on the fence of a B or an A. And they'd say, "Look, if you kill this last presentation, I want to make sure." They'd circle my name. It was always circled in the roster. And I I try to go above and beyond most of the things I do, but I'm like, "Wait a minute. If there's a way to get home quicker."

Yeah. Smart. If you had to start over with $10 million tomorrow, where would you put the money? Would you put it into stocks and bonds or businesses? Would you put in the S&P? Would you put it in the Bitcoin? What would you do with it?

I think for me, you know, abundance is about experiences. It's about making good investments so that it can keep creating more abundance. And it's about so it's not about hoarding it, right? It's about legacy and about, you know, giving to others. So I'm not going to pick one investment over the other, but I think it's like, hey, don't be hoarding it. Don't be only focused on like all right, I don't make the 10, the 20, like, but make responsible decisions about like allow the money to be spitting off what you could, you know, live off of if you wanted to just like get in your camper van and, you know, just do whatever you want for a year, right? So you don't have the golden handcuffs but also you like the resources are for experiences like you talked about right so as long as you keep it about experiences and it's not about status what kind of experiences can I use this resource these resources

for so that you can you know have those experiences with friends and family and others you love do something new do something challenges you so focus on that and then legacy I mean I have a scholarship fund um right now and it's called the Dare to Fly scholarship I partner with the Arizona Community Foundation and my The intent is to find people who are diamonds in the rough who have been through adversity or often have generational trauma, generational dynamics, but they have shown some inkling of saying it stops with me and they're fighting their way forward and I invest in them and I mentor them so that they can stop the generational cycles and they can you know have an inflection point in their life that changes their lives. So definitely that kind of invested in what you know what you care about in order to make a difference in other people's lives.

Yeah. What's the biggest professional dream at the current moment for you? I'm in Martha 3.0 right now. And so I'm in a state of reflection. Martha 3.0 is about maximum freedom of time because I never had that in the military and in politics, right? So for me, it's maximum freedom of time, maximum abundance to me and through me, maximum impact, and minimum grinding. And that's the stage that I've been in for the past now, I mean, you know, kind of five years into it. I've been in a reflection state for the past few months of like all right you know just kind of meditating prayerful whatever people's beliefs are for me I just you know kind of spend time throwing up to you know God like am I doing what I'm supposed to be doing right now is there some our friend Jeff Hayes is constantly telling me I'm playing small right now and I have something bigger that I should be doing and I usually tell him to go away

because I've already done enough grinding in my life. I've already done enough big things and I feel like I don't need to prove anything else to myself or anybody else. Like I've served, I've I've worked hard, but I'm about like impact, experiences, solving problems for people and abundance. And so what does that look like? Is there a big calling I have to do something new and different? Is there a Martha 4.0 coming where I'm a leader? You know, uh I'm talking to somebody right now about maybe starting a business together and I'm just trying to be reflective about I don't want to get myself where I'm all of a sudden grinding again. um because of somebody else telling me I need to be doing more. So, I'm just being reflective like all right, all right, you know, what do you want me to do?

What's the next mission? I want to make sure it continues with having some freedom of time for me because that's it's really important. So, we'll see to be continued.

Man, a decade goes by and you're like, you could learn so much from the past. So, I like that quality.

Yeah. What would you rather be? This was an interesting question that popped up a couple episodes ago and I had to really think about it. And it's a t it's a very hard question. Would you rather be loved or respected?

I think my life has shown that I'd rather be respected. That I think that's that can it can tend to be women probably answer it more wanting to be loved.

I I wanted to be loved but but at the same time the best mentors I've ever had and that was my next question is

I really respect them. They told me the hard truth. They were honest with me. So I I think it could be both. I think it's a it's a it's a trick question because I also think if you're and I'm trying to get too woo woo here, but if you're looking for somebody outside of you to make you feel loved and feel like you're enough, then you got work to do. You got inner work to do, right? Like we can't if we outsource feeling enough and feeling love and feeling bliss to another person, then you also outsource your misery to them. like they they get to do they get to you know you're you're you're outsourcing instead of insourcing saying like you know what I'm going to be on the journey where I am love and I am enough and I am respect and then I'm going to exude that to others and then I'm going to attract that to myself and I am in a status of well-being overall and I'm not looking for someone else to

validate that. It's not we're not there. I'm not there. I'm on the journey though and I am very more aware of when I'm outsourcing versus when I'm like just staying in my um you know in my inner contentment. We're not fully outsourcing our wellbeing to

Yeah. No, you shouldn't. You're right. You do give the misery away, too. And and I would say like I want to be valued. I don't need to be like there's a lot of haters out there that never met me, right? So like look, I I don't really care what a lot of people think. And I don't read I don't need to read a million books. I need to read the same 10 books a lot. You know, the the people that I'm the closest to, they don't call me out, they call me up. But it's tough sometimes. I mean, I've teared up talking about it. When someone calls me and says, "You're better than this."

I have a question. Are you do you feel like you can call them up when you're in a place of doubt or feeling alone or feeling like you're you're just like you're struggling. You've got an emotion coming up that's uncomfortable. Like, do you have people who you can be honest with?

You know, I don't really do that very often. that the you know what I've learned to do is go on long walks and actually um the I have a funny shirt that someone bought me and said sometimes I um some sometimes I need to talk sometimes I talk to myself cuz I need to talk to an expert but I I kind of live in my own head a lot of the time so I go on these long walks usually three or four miles not that long compared to most people but

sometimes I just need to be in my own head and like think through things and I do like to hear other people's perspectives I I I'm probably the most on my grave I wanted to be the best dad ever I'm not a dad yet I wanted to be the most curious guy and he fell in love with the game. He fell in love with practice. Okay, so Dare to Fly is your book, The Simple Lessons of Never.

I got one for you here. I'm going to sign it for you. Let's do it. So, what's the hardest uh what was the hardest story to write?

I would say two things. One was writing in the book about um being abused by my high school coach after my dad died. people who know me knew that this happened to me, but like saying it to the whole world that I had been through this was a whole another step for me to be able to not just survive it, not just heal from it, but integrate it into it's a part of who I am and it's a part of what made me who I am. I I don't think I would have said, "Don't tell me I can't fly fighter jets because I'm a girl." Um, had I not been through that. So, I'm I'm grateful in a weird way for the traumatic experiences I've had. But writing it down, I didn't get into gory details. The point was about like so many women and men have been through something similar. And you know, it's easier for women to talk about it than men, but a lot of men have been been through some sort of abuse um when they were kids, sexual abuse or assault when

they were younger. And so just being able to say that out loud to be an example for others that it doesn't have to define you. It doesn't have to hold you back. It can actually I turn it into jet fuel. Um that was that was really challenging. and writing about losing my dad. What was interesting is, you know, this is back in the in the, you know, 70s where people just didn't, we didn't go to counseling. Nobody really talked about it. We all just sort of went on our own journeys of dealing with it. And I actually reached out to my siblings to get their perspectives of what happened in that 48 hour period and what their recollections were when my dad was in the hospital. And that was actually beautiful. I mean, it wasn't hard, but it was kind of beautiful to get because I was 12 and I just was experiencing it the way I was. And so for the first time, you know, like decades later, we're actually as a family talking about

the night we lost our dad. And and so that was actually a beautiful connection to have and to hear very different perspectives from my siblings.

Yeah. Look, it's I always think about that day, you know, tomorrow's not promised even for me. And it's it's like, you know, there's this thing I saw. It's a death clock. And it's like if you're going to live to be 75, some people live to be 100, but it actually is ticking down. It makes you think a little bit about like clock's ticking and a lot of the AI stuff I've been reading is like you're you're losing life. You're dying today. You're dying every day.

So there's a great our friend Jason Campbell, you know, right? He leads a breath work uh program that I jump into. And so he's always dropping little wisdom bombs in that. And um he talks about it's like an old ancient practice of practice dying every night. And it sounds morbid, but I love this practice and I've been instituting it where you essentially you're intentional about when you put your head on the pillow and you're getting ready to go to sleep, you've you've experienced enough. Like you actually reflect just briefly like if I don't open my eyes tomorrow, I'm complete. My life is complete. I've experienced enough and I'm going to sleep. I kind

I want to say a really good prayer. I Yeah, I go through a little debrief of the day too about like, hey, is there anything I need to um do differently tomorrow? Is there anything or I didn't show up as my best self? So I do that and it's literally the last thing is I'm falling asleep and then every morning the first thing when I wake up like I I mean it's literally now part of just my morning routine is I got another day. I literally say I got another day you know and so it's like just to have that perspective of like wow we got another day. Now it doesn't mean you have to go you know climb a mountain or do something big. You may have to just do your laundry and go to the grocery store. But just having that gratitude of I got another day. like live each day truly with gratitude because we don't know. I mean, I my dad was there one day and gone the next. I've had friends who died in the military. I've had friends

who died in car accidents. And again, not to be morbid or fearful, but just living a full life every day without regrets.

We'll get the closeout question. We'll go quick here. So, you got to pick up the book Dare to Fly if you're looking for a great speaker, Martha Meli. World of Experience, great leader, been through a lot. Is there any other book that's changed your life that you'd recommend? Um, I'd probably say The Untethered Soul. Um, is that by Michael Singer? I think it's it's essentially it's part of kind of just our, you know, our spiritual journey to be able to be present where we are to he the way he even talks about the voice that everybody has in their head and how if like if it was a person sitting on your couch, how like you'd kick them out of the house because of how crazy they are, right? just being honest about being the kind of observer about what's happening in your life and not being attached to, you know, not being attached to the things that usually are like bogging us down. I don't know. It's it's worth just

reading. It was deeply moving for me. Kind of a part of my emotional spiritual journey. Um, and it just resonated as deep truth. Deep truth.

I'm going to read it. Um, I'm curious, you know, I've always really wondered because you you'd never really talked about this. I've never heard you talk about But it was almost like something that you just wanted to stay away from like your time as in the House and Senate and you know I understand it's like if you don't play those games and if you it's kind of they call the swamp for a reason but is that something you you'd be open to talking about?

I hate politics. I hate politics. Like I joke that I left the military in part because it was so damn political and bureaucratic. Um, but I just part of who I am is I can't walk by a problem. Much to the frustration of me and people in my life because sometimes I wish I could walk by a problem, but I can't, right? So, if I'm complaining about something, I'm always looking myself in the mirror like, "What are you going to do about it?" Like, get your ass in the arena. Like, the man in the arena, the the Teddy Roosevelt quote, like I've got that yellowed cutout of when I first read it as a cadet of the Air Force Academy, still that same cutout on my refrigerator because it spoke so deeply to me. I'm the woman in the arena kind of person. And so it's a crazy story where I'm overseas. I had retired. I was I was working as a professor work teaching national security studies to all these um people from former Soviet

countries and I just felt this call to duty like I had more to I had more to do and more to give and I was like no no no. I was trying to lie down that feeling went away like I just do not want to get involved in politics. But I ended up like very abruptly um quitting my position, flying home and saying I'm running for Congress. What do I do? Do I file a paperwork somewhere? Uh I had no idea what I was doing and I would not advise anyone else doing it that way. But when you feel that call to duty, when you feel that fire in bed that you can't turn off and in this case it was running for other people maybe like you know starting a new business or they feel like there's a real problem they can solve to help people like you can't turn that off. You know what that feels like right? you you either can turn it off and then go scroll on Netflix or get a drink and try to numb yourself or you go, "Okay, let's go. Let's let's go."

Right? So, next thing you know, I'm like running for Congress, you know, building a team, trying to figure it out. And I was just trying to serve and make a difference, you know, just like I did in uniform. It's a different combat zone to me. It's just Washington DC. And I I'd rather be in the arena than complaining about the arena. So, took me three years to get elected. I got elected by the narrowest victory in the House. 67 votes after a 43-day recount. Um, actually in 2012, I thought I had won. I went to freshman orientation, voted for the speaker, and then they counted more ballots for 14 days and I ended up losing by like 084%. So then I ran again for, you know, two years of trench warfare and then very, you know, very split district that I was representing down Tucson south of the border. And so I did that for four years and then I was appointed to John McCain Senate seat after he passed away. served there for

two years, didn't hang on to the seat in 2020, and now I'm on Martha 3.0 in the private sector. Look, it's it is a frustrating place by design. Like the founding fathers set the federal government up to be frustrating where you can't just do massive change all at once, right? Like just wa the pendulum swinging one side or the other. Like they set it up so we've have the checks and balances. So like there's supposed to be some oversight of you know if the executive branch tries to overreach then you have the legislative and the judicial branch that have different levers they pull an oversight of that and similarly you may have a brilliant idea as a legislator but if you can't figure out how to get consensus and get it through the house and get it through the senate and get it signed by the president which may be opposite parties and you know I can't remember who described it this way but you know the

house is supposed to be like the hot cup of coffee that like the voice of the people every two years, right? The people are like, "Ah, they're mad about whatever." And that's what the House is supposed to be. And the Senate was supposed to be like the saucer. Like, whoa, whoa, whoa. You know, they're supposed to be the adults in the room. Hey, hold on. Like, let's look at the longer view. Let's look at the big picture. What's best for the country because they're supposed to be every six years. That's what it was supposed to be, and that's what it kind of used to be. Um, even though you would always see the friction on, you know, cable TV, but it so it's always been frustrating even in this is not new. If you look at the early days of of our country or even obviously you know time of Abraham Lincoln like it it was canankerous it was it was combative right so it's frustrating by design so the way I would

look at it is so I would look at it like all right somebody would bring me a problem and I would say is this a government problem first question right and sometimes it is but I philosophically didn't think it should be like I'm conservative right I think the federal government should be limited and effective in what they do to do some of the basics but it's grown grown too. It's grown too big. It's doing way too much. Right? So, philosophically, I may believe that something is not a federal or a government issue at all. So, okay, is it a federal government issue?

Because people would come to me at the dog park, you know, complaining about potholes, like, sorry, call the city. That's not that's not me or the county. So, if if the answer was yes and yes is a federal government issue. I used to sarcastically say, "Does this literally take an act of Congress to fix?" Because not everything should like sometimes in our oversight of federal agencies, especially when they're of the same party, we usually have a better relationship. Or we can like get the cabinet secretary on the phone and be like, "Hey, what's going on with this issue? This regulation is just crushing small businesses and like it's here's all the negative effects. See if you can get them to, you know, adjust it or whatever." And if it literally takes an act of Congress, then you need to craft the legislation. You've got to get support, get it out of committee, get it on the floor. 98% of the bills, you

know, like die on the floor of being introduced. So, I would actually try to get it across the finish line, which is not being on cable news every single day in Twitter. It's actually like doing the job of a effing le legislator, right? It doesn't sell, right? And so I I mean my freshman term I was an outside group evaluates members of Congress and I was ranked the ninth most effective member of Congress my freshman term. So I was like getting [ __ ] done, right? So so it was frustrating um by design it was frustrating. I would say you know there's an opportunity though because you're in the room so you're not you don't feel helpless. You feel like I'm hearing from my constituents. I can actually do something about it. And there I mean we were able to I was able to be as effective as possible in a very very challenging and frustrating environment but was able to solve problems for very real people. Um and so

I'm proud of that. I was really grateful for the opportunity. What is the best way to get a hold of you if someone wants to reach out?

Uh my website's martha mcsali.com. We're redoing it right now, but there's a way to get on my email list. Um they can certainly email me if they want directly. Um mmarththa.com. And

is there a social handle you like? Martha MSali is pretty much on all the all the uh profiles. So I'm LinkedIn more on the business side of things and I'm on uh Instagram and Facebook, you know, more on the personal side of things. Yeah.

And then we talked about a lot of things. You could give us anything you want to close us out, anything you want the audience to hear.

I I would just encourage everybody who's listening. I'm sure you're all driven people and you're changing the world. You're doing amazing things. You know, you're you're running companies. you're you're a part of, you know, doing really important things in the world. You're building wealth. You're getting a lot of resources and abundance for you. That is awesome. You know, keep doing what you're doing. The world needs you. But also like connect with who you are and do the inner [ __ ] work. Like do the work because that is never going to satisfy you. And you can do both. You can be successful on the outside and successful on the inside. But our journeys on this earth are about really connecting with the essence of who you are, expressing yourself in the world through work and through relationships based on that true essence. And so don't leave that part behind. It's really important and how you show up in your

business, in your relationships, for you to like unpack the [ __ ] that's holding you back, to be honest about the fears that you're dealing with that are holding you back and and really be showing up as your authentic higher self. It's the hard it's the most courage it takes is to do that work. just

was great. I got a lot out of this, Martha. I really appreciate you coming in today to this.

Yeah, thanks Tommy. It was great conversation. Fantastic. Thanks so much for listening to this episode. Like always, we're going to close it out with the Tommy truth, which is a little slice of wisdom from me to you that can help guide you in whatever you're striving towards right now. A lot of people say, "I'm just not close to a gym. I don't have time to work out." That's not true. I did 150 push-ups this morning. I walk a/4 mile on the treadmill, 25 push-ups. When you're at a mile and a half, you've done 150 push-ups. And then I did 150 sit-ups. I do 75 at a time. I just do crunches. So, if you don't have a lot of time, you travel, this will fit in a bag anywhere, right? It's so easy. It's just a band.

You can do a lot of push-ups. You can do sit-ups. You can go like this. You can change it around where you're getting your chest in. You can do things for your back. I can't tell you enough how important it is how much less stress I have, less anxiety, no depression because I work out regularly. And that's it, guys. We'll talk to you next week.

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "Dare To Fly: How Martha McSally Transformed Fear into Fearless Leadership"?

Tommy Mello (Host), Martha McSally (Guest).

What is "Dare To Fly: How Martha McSally Transformed Fear into Fearless Leadership" about?

Martha McSally, the first American woman to fly an Air Force fighter jet in combat and a former US senator, shares her journey of overcoming barriers and transforming fear into fearless leadership. Drawing from her extensive military experience and subsequent political career, she emphasizes the importance of resilience, empowering others to embrace challenges and pursue their goals without…

What is mentioned in this Tommy Mello episode?

5 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Martha Msali, Dare to Fly, A-10 Warthog, Msali v. Rumsfeld, Arizona Community Foundation. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "Dare To Fly: How Martha McSally Transformed Fear into Fearless Leadership"?

The episode runs 35 min; the transcript is about 7,875 words in 76 timestamped sections.

More from Tommy Mello

About this transcript: the episode's spoken words as captioned on YouTube, split into timestamped sections. Reclip.Me locates every person, work and idea in the text, keeps the time it is first named, and quotes the words around it verbatim. Last updated January 10, 2026.