Does Faith Belong in Government? | Charlie Kirk Debate Compilation

What this episode is about

The discussion centers around the role of faith and biblical teachings in government, particularly regarding social issues like helping the needy, abortion, and gay marriage. The participants debate whether government should play a role in supporting the vulnerable, with one side arguing for the necessity of government involvement to fulfill Christian obligations, while the other insists that such responsibilities should lie primarily with the church and individuals, not the state.

Key takeaways

• Money talks, but so does the Bible; it's a shame they often don't share the same pulpit.
• Churches may feed the needy, but can they handle bureaucratic messes like SNAP? Spoiler: Not so much.
• Without taxes, church donations might not fill bellies, just hearts—while the needy prefer full stomachs.
• When it comes to helping the poor, relationships matter; but sometimes, a hearty meal trumps a friendly chat.
• Faith and food can coexist, but let’s not kid ourselves—government scale beats church bake sales every time.

Who speaks in this episode?

• Charlie Kirk (Guest) · 12 min speaking

What is discussed, and when

1. 9:00 – 12:00: Ten Commandments, Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Ma Tong
2. 12:00 – 15:00: Ten Commandments
3. 15:00 – 18:00: Ten Commandments, United States of America
4. 18:00 – 19:22: Ten Commandments

Notable quotes from "Does Faith Belong in Government? | Charlie Kirk Debate Compilation"

• Specifically over 2,000 times in the Bible, right? So we go back to the constitution because that's our core governance. So is it if it's in the constitution, it should be there such as border security, national security, printing of money,.

  about United States of America · at 1:37

• And state? Of course not. Now, the morality that built the West is the Ten Commandments. The Ten Commandments is the best rules of life for any society to flourish and to be able to succeed.

  about Ten Commandments · at 10:14

• Professor told you that. So let's go to the truth and I'm going to ask you a couple questions. What religion did Ma Tong believe in? Great murderer of China who killed 50 million people.

  about Ma Tong · at 11:04

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

• Ma Tong — Person · Referenced example in argument (likely misnamed) · 1 mention · first at 11:08
  Invoked as a 'great murderer of China' to argue that atheistic totalitarian regimes caused mass deaths; the name appears to be a mistaken reference to Mao Zedong.
• Joseph Stalin — Person · Referenced historical example · 1 mention · first at 11:15
  Used as an example of an atheist totalitarian leader to rebut the claim that religion is the main driver of war and mass violence.
  Yeah, he was an atheist. What religion did Joseph Stalin believe in who killed over 30 million people of the Soviet Union?
• Adolf Hitler — Person · Referenced historical example · 1 mention · first at 11:42
  Cited to argue that major 20th-century atrocities were not driven by Christianity; framed as anti-Christian/anti-God in the speaker’s argument.
  What caused more human suffering in the 20th century than not. Adolf Hitler was not a Christian. Adolf Hitler was at war with God and thought he was God and a total maniac. So…

Concepts & topics

• Ten Commandments — Concept · Key argument · 9 mentions · first at 10:17
  Presented as the foundational moral code for Western civilization and a proposed standard for classroom behavior.

Places & events

• United States of America — Place · Setting · 1 mention · first at 17:39
  The country where the discussion takes place, with references to its constitution, government policies, and moral foundations.

Full transcript with timestamps

0:00 You love the Bible, correct? It's the word of God. Exactly. Okay. Perfect. Perfect. Yes. Exactly. So, I just want to I'm just here not necessarily to debate, but more to understand your line of reasoning. I want to understand how when you practice the pre and like preach religious governance and issues like that, as with your abortion and stances on gay marriage. Why don't you also support things like free lunches for kids? The Bible over 2,000 times mentions it helping the needy at every instance. And that if you don't help the needy, you are not doing the word of God and he will not help you.

0:28 Yeah. Great. Did I mention the Bible once in my abortion argument earlier? Okay. I don't know. I'm just

0:32 No, you didn't. I just want to be clear, though. I'm just thinking of what I've heard before. Sorry.

0:34 No, but I I I I do believe it's the word of God. Of course, we should help the needy. Can you show me a specific verse where it says, "Make sure you pay a bunch of money to the government and taxes to help the needy."

0:44 I would say specifically that I think as Christians, it should be the number one priority to find a system that works to make sure that every single person is fed. And I think it truly, if we're looking at the word of God, you have to look at the fact that you should go through every cost to yourself. As the Bible specifically says, I can pull up a verse on my phone right now that says specifically in the Bible that you should feed the needy at the cost yourself. You should help those in needy at cost yourself. If it's a couple pennies out of my tax dollars to feed those don't don't have food, I think that's a Christian obligation of the government to fulfill.

1:10 But no, that again, it's never biblically obligated to use the state to do that. The church should do that.

1:16 And that's so I personally give a fair amount of my tithes and my donations to local churches to help do these things. And I hope everybody else does that as well. And in fact, I believe the meat of my question if I could get more to the meat of the question then. So why do you think there should be some policies that should be governed at the state level but then not other policies when it's sort of governed like this when it's specifically over 2,000 times in the Bible,

1:39 right? So we go back to the constitution because that's our core governance. So is it if it's in the constitution, it should be there such as border security, national security, printing of money, the treasury, enforcing of interstate commerce, department of justice, those tariffs, collecting of duties. However, the government providing food to its citizenry is not in the constitution and it should be a last sta last gap effort. And I suppose the question is I I don't know if you're a Christian or not. And if you are, wouldn't wouldn't you say it's better for churches to feed people than the government to feed people?

2:12 Yeah. Okay. So I am a Christian and I do think that on by any means necessary the number one priority of every single citizen in society under Christian values as you like to preach should be to help their fellow man to help them feed help them get clothes and help the needy. And I think that out here preaching if you think that the government the government is a means of at the end of the day it's inevitable. The government is inevitable and I think that we have to have that means that has such a mass scale of outreach to help feed people and to help give them their needs. I think that churches, they lack a lot of central organization that they could that they the government has to help reach out with them to help feed them.

2:45 Let me ask you a hypothetical. If all the money we spend on the government to feed people went away, do you think the church would step up and make sure there's not a single hungry person in America?

2:54 Um, I think that they would try, but again, I think that the government is a unique position that as Christians we should be using to fulfill the will of God.

3:00 How is the government in a better position than the church? Build that out for me. Are are there more churches or more government buildings in America?

3:06 Yeah. So, let me actually get to that. Can the church make laws? Well, no, but the church actually can collect money and actually deploy it much more effectively than the federal government can. In fact,

3:16 Okay. Okay. Perfect. I Okay, a question that I got on taxes. I would love if my tax dollars went to helping people who needed food. That's my argument here. I think

3:24 it does. Over over a trillion dollars a year goes to food stamps and SNAP and Medicaid, but actually it doesn't help them nearly as much as you think. Let me tell you why. Because then we subsidize bad eating habits of the poor so that the working poor is very obese so they go buy Coca-Cola, Pepsi and Fredo Lays and the church is not involved where the church would then say, "Hey, instead of going to the local grocery store with a bunch of food stamps and SNAP benefits, why don't you come by our church and we'll feed all of you and a much more healthy meal made by our own members and then you can hear the gospel afterwards." That's the church in practice. What the government does, and I want you to respond. What the government does is it creates distance and it creates separation and it creates murkiness between the person issuing the help and the person receiving the help.

4:11 What private charity and philan philanthropy does as the church designed it is it's much more relational. So there is a single mom coming into the church saying, "I can't feed my kids. I need help." I would believe that every church in America would not say, "Sorry, we're closed here." They would say, "How here's our food bank. here's how we can help you. We will we will cook you a meal. We will give you what you want. Where the faceless government, we've seen this in Europe, and I don't mean to go on too long about this. In Europe, the state is huge. The government is huge, and the church is small. The church does not do charity. It does not do food banks. Does very little that because the government takes care of it.

4:46 I actually think that's deeply unhealthy. I want a small government and a big church where Europe has a big government and a small church.

4:53 Okay. Okay. I have a few key arguments against that. Just one quickly, I think that people despite like their uh monetary status and like where they stand in society like monetarily, I think that they should be able to choose what food they get to some extent at the grocery store, but also two on that like unhealthy food is substantially cheaper than good food. So that's also kind of that situation that you're pointing out.

5:12 But but it is cheaper at the end of the day. If they're pinching pennies, then ultimately they're going to weigh a cost.

5:17 We do not just I have to interrupt you just so we're clear. We do not have a starvation crisis in America. I I would say that we have I think that issues with it. I think that the thing is we don't have necessarily starvation crisis, but we have a mismanagement of resources to the point where kids are going hungry. I'm not sure the exact rate, but they are going hungry.

5:33 There 10% of kids claim food insecurity. That's 10% of kids. That means that they don't know where the next meal is coming from.

5:38 We don't know what that term means. Half of our kids are clinically obese by the age of 15.

5:44 That's a much bigger problem than food insecurity. We have too much bad food being fed to our kids.

5:49 Okay, perfect. on that argument again of food insecurity. That just means they don't know where their next meal is going to come from. That's what that means. But also more on to this specifically. I think that again obesity can be a problem to solve. But when there are kids that are going hungry, I do think it is a responsibility of the government because like I said, churches can't make laws. I think that they are important, but they cannot have the outreach and the standard of providing free lunches to school kids every single day because they can't afford food. They don't know if they're going to go home and have dinner on their table. So all I'm arguing here today again my final question before I get off is just do you think that you are upholding your Christian values by not holding the government accountable when the government is the easiest way to get food to people?

6:24 You know I actually don't think it's the easiest way. I think that private charity individuals helping individuals is the best way to offer

6:30 is that working enough right now or should we have a system to give free lunches to kids?

6:34 We do that problem is you're actually living in the big government era and it's not working. We spend hundreds of billions of dollars on your desired objective. We have food stamps. We have school supported lunches. We have t

6:46 How how widespread are the school supported lunch? Can you can you give me the statistics because most of cuz I know that growing up in the state of Idaho I never once had a free school lunch unless no neither did anybody I know unless it was during co I

6:57 and I I will say something controversial and it's I actually don't think it's the role of the state to feed a kid at school. It's the role of the parents to feed those kids. Okay? And I I I and you might say, "Oh, if the parents don't have money, the parents, I think, have to get more and more involved to taking care of your kids." And the more the state grows into that realm, the smaller it actually makes the American family. Final point.

7:20 Okay. One quick followup on that. I think that specifically parents are often struggling. They often give up their own meals to give to their kids. But hang on, let's

7:28 Okay. Exactly. Now, let's move. But they shouldn't have to. They should also be able to get food themselves. I think that the key argument here is that they need to be able because the government has so many resources to provide food for people and I think that if you are up here and that your religious values I know that you're against gay marriage and often that's by your religious values. So I would say that specifically when we look towards issues like that if we're going to have some religious governance you have to do what the Bible says over 2,000 times and provide food to the needy and help heal the needy.

7:52 And yes and we do. And what I'm saying though is that it has been proven to really not work very well. the best way to help the needy.

7:59 Then do you not think it's the Christian duty then to find everything we absolutely can do to help them?

8:03 Yes. And we know how to do it and that is the local church helping them. Okay, perfect. So then do you think that also then comes from government ordinances and government support and tax cuts for the churches?

8:11 No. See that? Well, first of all, tax churches don't pay taxes. Well, that's what I meant like not no longer adding taxes cuz I've seen that things that people want to add taxes.

8:18 We shouldn't. No, they're taxexempt organizations. But again, our view as Christians and conservatives is the government doesn't do it well. The government operates by force and the local Christian nonprofit, the local Christian church or whatever will it does a much better job of delivering help to those in need than a big government. Thank you for your time though.

8:38 It's believed to be back to the fundamentals of when this country was started and the constitution was made that there's supposed to be a separation of church and state, but it seems you don't believe that anymore.

8:48 Well, where does it say that in the US Constitution? It was written in the Constitution. I don't exactly remember what part, but it hasn't.

8:55 It's not actually. So, and that's okay. I'm going to help you out here. There's the free expression clause and the establishment clause. So, what you're thinking is the of the first amendment. What you're thinking of is that Congress shall make no law prohibiting or or promoting the exercise of religion or the free exercise thereof. Now, mind you, the separation of church and state is not in the US Constitution. And that's okay. Not a lot of people know this. It is from a letter that Thomas Jefferson wrote in 1803 to the Danbury Baptist Convention in Massachusetts saying to the church, the government will not come after you. There was no question at the time of the founding that God played a central role in all of our government. In fact, God is there in four times mentioned in the Declaration of Independence and never should and you would agree there should never be separation of morality and state.

9:45 But then I have another question, not the second question, but do you believe there should be a separation between those two things, church and state?

9:52 Well, it depends on Well, let's play it out. Do we currently have that? During COVID, the government was able to shut down the church. Should that be allowed?

10:00 I mean, I don't believe so. No. Okay. So, the point is that we don't even have separation church and state because the state was able to tell the church whether or not that you could practice on Easter. Now, that's the standard that they they currently have. Do I believe in a separation of morality and state? Of course not. Now, the morality that built the West is the Ten Commandments. The Ten Commandments is the best rules of life for any society to flourish and to be able to succeed. You shall have no other gods before me.

10:24 You shall have no other idols. You shall not take the Lord's name in vain. Honor your mother and fathers, may live long in the land of which you are in. Honor the Sabbath day and keep it holy. Do not murder. Do not steal. Do not, you know, bear false witness. Do not covet. Do not commit adultery. It is out of order, but is that still the ten commandments? That those rules for life is what the founders believed. So much so that they're in the halls of Congress and the Supreme Court that we believe is transcendently transmitted to us and that when we do not submit to those ten commandments, our country starts to fall apart.

10:53 But if you think about it, most wars in um when religion gets entangled into a culture and even government, most wars have started because of that.

11:01 So that's a talking point that has no basis and that's okay because a professor told you that. So let's go to the truth and I'm going to ask you a couple questions. What religion did Ma Tong believe in? Great murderer of China who killed 50 million people.

11:14 I don't know. Yeah, he was an atheist. What religion did Joseph Stalin believe in who killed over 30 million people of the Soviet Union?

11:22 An atheist. He was an atheist. So that's 80 million people murdered in two countries in just the 20th century that did not believe in any religion. So it's an easy talking point to say that religion causes war. But in reality, it seems as if actually totalitarian dictatorships rooted in atheism and a lack of the the divine is what caused more human suffering in the 20th century than not. Adolf Hitler was not a Christian. Adolf Hitler was at war with God and thought he was God and a a total maniac. So there is no basis for what you're saying. You might be thinking about like the Crusades or something like 6 or 700 years ago or the Inquisition. If that's the if that's the case, I think you need a better argument. Uh because religion actually keeps people sane, free and moral, not towards war and conflict.

12:06 But isn't the war that's currently occurring in um Israel and Palestine over religion and their land?

12:12 Yes and no. It's more over territories and boundaries. Of course they're religious wars. But if you look at the major wars over the last 30 or 40 years even, some are religious, some are not. But Russia and Ukraine, are they fighting over religion?

12:26 No. No. Or Central African Republic Civil War, are they fighting over religion? No. So, it's an easy talking point. There really is no truth to it in the modern era.

12:35 I've researched your positions. I know you've come out and said you don't believe in the separation of church and state. And um I'd like to ask you why even though there's the non-establishment clause uh freedom of religion uh and then there's you know lawsuits in the like historically like Angle versus Vitel that come out to say that church and state should be separated.

12:54 It's a fair question. So, I don't believe in a national church. More importantly, let's forget church and state. Okay.

12:59 Can we both agree there's no separation between morality and state? I agree. It's just lawmaking.

13:04 That's cool. That's where I really live in. What I'm saying though is the church should influence that morality. That's what I mean by that because at some point people are going to have to make a decision of what is good and what is bad, what is permissible and not permissible. And I think the church or Christianity should inform those decisions.

13:20 So, okay, I I understand where you're coming from and it's undeniable that there's been a heavy Christian influence on our nation, right? Um, I think 55 out of 56 founding fathers were you know my stuff.

13:29 I do. Yeah. I' I've looked at your stuff. Yeah. But where I disagree is putting the ten commandments in classrooms, you know, things like that.

13:36 Well, so let's let's pause on that if that's okay. Yeah. I'm guessing you're not a Christian. That's okay.

13:40 I'm Hindu. That's fine. So even as a Hindu, what moral objection to the Ten Commandments could there would you agree if everybody followed the Ten Commandments, better place to live?

13:51 For sure. Yeah. I So there's obviously commandments like thou shalt not kill. I mean these are just moral standards that

13:56 I think in Hindu philosophy the only one that would be is you know don't take any other gods before me being a polytheistic fa faith right having no idols that would violate Hinduism right

14:06 but I mean honoring your father and mother Hindus are pretty good with that right we try

14:10 uh not coveting right uh not stealing not committing adultery I imagine that's against Hindu religious teaching right it is what I'm getting at is despite the monotheism that is embedded in the ten commandments you can agree that it does have good external moral teaching Right.

14:25 And that's what I'm getting at is that I encourage anybody to show me a better book, a better teacher than the Bible to create good citizens.

14:35 Well, does the does the Constitution morally teach us the the Constitution is a template? Right.

14:39 I think But is it is it the the place of classrooms to tell children what their moral should do?

14:46 Does in a classroom, this is a really important question you asked. If a kid is sitting in a in a in a desk and another kid and he hits the other kid, should the teacher say that's wrong?

14:55 Yes. Teacher is teaching morals. If the kid goes and steals his lunch, is it for the teacher to say don't steal? If the kid goes around and starts harassing and bullying another kid, should the teacher say don't do that?

15:06 But what about those two commandments? I'm not answer. No, hold on. I'm going to get there. The teacher of course should come and say stop it. Don't do that. Because the teacher is appealing to a moral order. We think that moral order should be in every classroom. from the ten commandments should be referring to that. This is why you shouldn't do that. This is why that. Now, as far as those two commandments, I have a brutal truth to tell you that albeit I'll posit that not every founding father was Christian. They were all monotheistic.

15:33 Polytheism does not mix very well with western social order. I'm not criticizing Hindus. It's all good. But monotheism is a western idea. One god, one morality. And here's why. When you have multiple gods, you get different moralities. And the west largely has embraced the idea that there is a standard of conduct that there is a best way to live. Uh CS Lewis called it the Dao or the way or the uh the best path in in in his book abolition of man. What I'm getting at is that it's tempting to say, "Hey, the teacher should just stay neutral." But we all know the number one thing a teacher does is not instruct.

16:09 It's to control the behavior of out of control kids. And by controlling behavior, you're actually imparting morals on the kids. Does that make sense?

16:16 It does. But even then the question still arises that yes there are moral codes that the you know western civilization has kind of built been built on which is the ten commandments you know we should go back right we shouldn't

16:26 however the we have you know school codes laws district laws and all of these most school codes have these

16:33 but they're all a reflection of a different moral code why original so go back to the roots the roots the best because why why would we cut off the life force of our civilization if we know that something has given us life and given us prosperity and has grown into the greatest civilization ever. Isn't going back to the roots really finding our way home? Well, I and like to an extent you're right. Absolutely. I understand your point and I can totally understand. But, you know, when you have these ten commandments and you see you have a child such as me, you know, a Hindu person. If I was a child and I see the ten commandments on a wall, to me it's an endorsement. Not so much as, hey, here are some rules that you should follow. Because even with those two, I'm still feeling cognitive dissonance that like I'm being told this, but I also believe this at home. So why not stick with those school codes and those, you

17:18 know, local laws? I think we're actually agreeing at some point. I agree. At some point there has to be rules for life.

17:24 Absolutely. We think the best rules for life were given to Moses on Sinai. We think that was the best way for human beings to live.

17:30 We slightly disagree. We disagree. And I would contest though, can you show me a civilization that is as prosperous as the West that embraces polytheism?

17:39 The United States of America. Well, we're not polytheistic. We embrace it. Well, no, we don't.

17:43 First Amendment freedom of religion. No, no, no. We don't embrace polytheism. Okay. We we we we are a monotheistic civilization fundamentally. For example, in the declaration, God is mentioned four times. It even says ordination in the constitution. Now, you are right. You can be a polytheist, right? At some point though, the western moral order does believe in the idea of a singular god. That that has been a tradition and it's worked really well for us. And if the solution is like, hey, we're going to have a school code. What we want to do is peel back that school code eventually back to where it came from.

18:17 But what's the point inherently? Again, I apologize. I keep No, it's okay. The point is the point of peeling this code instead of keeping this code that's more inclusive to people like

18:24 I wouldn't say it's I will be I'm not I don't mean to offend you. I don't seek to be inclusive,

18:29 reasonable. I seek what is best. Okay. And the ten commandments are what is best again. And so would it be offensive to a young Hindu kid? Maybe. Maybe not. But it also was a reminder they're living in a country that is a monotheistic country. If I went to India and there was you know the the Vishna or whatever Vishnu right code I wouldn't be offended because I'm a visitor in a polytheistic country. Does that make sense? So if I go to China and they have the Confucian code for kids to live by I wouldn't be like well take that down because I'm a Christian. So it's sometimes when you're a visitor into a monotheistic culture think you have to you can still have your own beliefs but understand monotheism is one of the most import ethical monotheism is one of the most important worldview elements that created this amazing civilization.

19:17 Absolutely. So thank you for your time. I appreciate it.

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "Does Faith Belong in Government? | Charlie Kirk Debate Compilation"?

Charlie Kirk (Guest).

What is "Does Faith Belong in Government? | Charlie Kirk Debate Compilation" about?

The discussion centers around the role of faith and biblical teachings in government, particularly regarding social issues like helping the needy, abortion, and gay marriage. The participants debate whether government should play a role in supporting the vulnerable, with one side arguing for the necessity of government involvement to fulfill Christian obligations, while the other insists that…

What is mentioned in this Turning Point USA episode?

5 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Ten Commandments, United States of America, Ma Tong, Joseph Stalin, Adolf Hitler. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "Does Faith Belong in Government? | Charlie Kirk Debate Compilation"?

The episode runs 19 min; the transcript is about 4,526 words in 82 timestamped sections.

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