#96 Presidential Advisor David Gergen: Democracy in Peril and New Leadership

What is discussed, and when

1. 0:00 – 5:00: Ronald Reagan, Center for Public Leadership, Hearts Touched with Fire, Lynn Tomman

Notable quotes from "#96 Presidential Advisor David Gergen: Democracy in Peril and New Leadership"

• Careers and now your host and board member of schools at Harvard Princeton and Columbia Lynn tomman hi everyone it's ly tomman welcome to another episode today I'm excited to…

  about Lynn Tomman · at 0:16

• Figure especially for those of us who spend a chunk of our lives in the academy it seemed improbable that Ronald Reagan the class B movie actor could have become a significant…

  about Ronald Reagan · at 1:44

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

• David Gergen — Person · 10 mentions
• Ronald Reagan — Person · 2 mentions · first at 1:49
• Lynn Tomman — Person · 1 mention · first at 0:21

Books & papers

• Hearts Touched with Fire — Book · 1 mention · first at 1:05
  Founded the Center for Public leadership at the Harvard Kennedy School he's also just written a new book Hearts touched with fire how great leaders are made welcome David and…

Companies & orgs

• Center for Public Leadership — Company · 1 mention · first at 1:00
  A new generation in power to that end he has studied and taught leadership and founded the Center for Public leadership at the Harvard Kennedy School he's also just written a…

Full transcript with timestamps

0:01 welcome to the three takeaways podcast which features short memorable conversations with the world's best thinkers Business Leaders writers politicians scientists and other newsmakers each episode ends with the three key takeaways that person has learned over their lives and their careers and now your host and board member of schools at Harvard Princeton and Columbia Lynn tomman hi everyone it's ly tomman welcome to another episode today I'm excited to be with David ggen there's no one like him he's not only been a White House adviser to four presidents he's been an adviser to both Republican and Democratic presidents I'm excited to get a behind the-scenes look at US presidents and learn about leadership from their struggles successes and failures David believes that the success of the United States and other countries will depend heavily upon the success of a new generation in power to that end he

0:57 has studied and taught leadership and founded the Center for Public leadership at the Harvard Kennedy School he's also just written a new book Hearts touched with fire how great leaders are made welcome David and thanks so much for our conversation today thank you L I'm looking forward to it me too you worked as a White House advisor to four presidents seeing them on almost a daily basis so you got to know them in a way that almost no one else has I especially liked your insights on their temperaments and styles of leadership let's start by talking briefly about a few of those presidents can you tell us first about President Reagan well President Reagan was unusual figure especially for those of us who spend a chunk of our lives in the academy it seemed improbable that Ronald Reagan the class B movie actor could have become a significant president but I think he has been in terms of his

1:58 impact on the late 20th century it impact on our politics and by the way on how to govern we often talk about political figures whether they're comfortable in their own skin or not do they go through life being comfortable Reagan was Serene in his own skin unlike Richard Nixon for example whose very existence depended upon his power how much power he had and he was more interested in power than he was in doing good deeds Reagan didn't need the presidency to feel or believe the fulfilling life my final conversation with him before he went into seclusion in effect was a few weeks before he went into seclusion and I thought we would spend that weekend there was a group of us I thought we spend that weekend reminiscing about his presidency instead he spent the whole time talking about Hollywood and his stories from Hollywood and the presidency seemed to be sort of well yeah I was also president but look

2:52 at over here look at these people I knew and worked with and Jane w and all the rest in political science you talk about a lot of data and evidence of a proposition but the data is especially important bran wasn't into Data he was into how do you mobilize people emotionally you have one or two well chosen facts to make your case but most of it is about motivating you and stirring you up and making you feel you have the country as a real responsibility or you have a real responsibility to your society and depending on he's a conservative he stresses individual freedom and a small government going back to the question of temperament and versus the IQ or quality of his mind it was very very interesting my dad was a professor of mathematics he was chair of the mathematics Department of Duke for quarter Century so I grew up believing that the best leader was the smartest person in the group if you just

3:44 went and found the person who brain power was the highest you get the best results from leadership Reagan convinced me that's not true he brought to mind a famous incident or a moment when Franklin Roosevelt who was newly inaugurated went to see Justice Oliver wend Holmes Jr who who been a member of the Supreme Court and iconic figure but he went to celebrate Holmes 92nd 93rd birthday and as FDR left Holmes turned to an associate and said last mind but first temperament that was a secret to FDR success and similarly was a secret of Ronald Reagan success temperament his equinity if you would his sort of joy of living I think really did sustain him as a leader in ways that you rarely you rarely see I love that Oliver W Holmes quote a second class intellect and a first class temperament it's wonderful that teaches you you don't have to have the mind that got you into Columbia University you don't have to

4:48 have take on life people who are going to community colleges people who are doing other kinds of things in life can still have a real impact as a leader in a community or indeed in a country Martin King kept stressing that it's not all your credentials it's sort what your soul President Reagan had a fairly narrow base about a third of the country were supporters of his conservative perspective and yet he broadened his appeal more broadly both among Democrats and among Democratic members of government and Congress as well as among the country how did he successfully do that well I think he radiated AR didn't have to be a conservative to appreciate Reagan's warmth and his seeming caring conservatives are different from liberals liberals tend to be um conservative first they tend to not identify very much with groups like blacks Hispanics or whatever they tend to think more in terms of individuals

5:48 and on the individual level conservatives are quite caring at the group level the conservatives can sometimes be uncaring because they have a rigidity about thinking about people as a group and it's just the opposite with the Liberals they love the group they're not very good with the individuals frequently I found that in White House as I've observed that on the liberal side they'll throw you under the bus pretty quickly if they need to they don't relate to you as individuals they relate to you as are you part of a group that matters to us Reagan just brought something different to the table and I want to stress part of his success as a political leader and part of the the reason he is regarded even now as being one of our more significant presidents he was quite willing quite eager to work across the aisle to get big things done I always felt that Reagan's rhetoric was pretty far right but his actual

6:40 governance was more center right it wasn't that far out but I think he kept his base with him and his rhetoric helped on that front but if you actually look at what he did the big things he got done tax reform and Social Security reform we both done with working closely with Democrats including tip o' who was the Speaker of the House in those days we had Reagan one of the most conservative presidents we've had in the 20th century in the white house and we have tip O'Neal in the House of Representatives one of the most liberal speakers of the house in history and yet they work well together they developed bonds of they had originally the two of them had sort of a informal pack that up until five o'clock in the day you could take a real swipes of the other guy you could go out and bang him pretty hard politics ain't bean bag as they say but after 5:00 you put down your differences you could raise a glass if you're were

7:32 Irish and tell Irish Yarns and and laugh and scratch have a good time they got along pretty well together so when tip turned 65 or 70 I can't remember which Reagan decided to have a big birthday party for him at the way house or lunch and the marry rean got up and to give a toast at the end of the lunch and he had written out this little dog girl as he liked to do Reagan said tip if I had a ticket to heaven and you didn't have two well i' give my ticket back and go to hell with you he had a great sense of humor by the way humor is a factor that people Overlook as important to leadership Lincoln understood and some other guys have understood he basically said if I don't laugh I cry I try to avoid that but Reagan was like that he loved the humor and we often play pranks on each other that made everybody laugh I love in your first book where you talk about President Reagan and how he invited

8:33 everyone to the table he respected everyone including liberal Democrats with views very different from his own and he sucked out the bitterness and essentially developed relationships good relationships across the Spectrum are there lessons for today from how President Reagan led oh yeah absolutely I think there are lessons especially from his generation what I would call the World War II generation I think that was a highly successful group of people in the governance process and Reagan was obviously a very important part of that and we had seven presidents starting with John Kennedy through George HW Bush whom we call the World War II presidents that's because they all came through every single one war a military uniform during the war or just after six of them served during the war itself one Jimmy Carter was still in the Naval Academy as a student when the war ended and he went on to serve honorably as in the military

9:35 and because they had fought under the same flag because they put their lives on the line for the country they had a special feeling of patriotism and a special pride in the country and they saw us as a can because we overcame both the depression and the war itself they thought of themselves as being part of a can do country we can do anything it was Kennedy calling for a moonshot we next to within 10 years we're be have a man on the moon and we had a man on the moon within seven or eight years it was faster than anybody thought and Reagan was part of that group of people who saw their role as properly one of having being an opposition but not being an angry opposition often trying to work across the off seeing if you can find common ground and moving ahead don't get stalled don't let the poison seep into the system with Reagan but also with these other six presidents we had a period of time when that World War II

10:29 generation was basically running the country and they weren't perfect they I don't want to mislead this they gave us Vietnam and they gave us Watergate so there was much about what they left behind and they were too slow frankly on advancing women and people of pillar and we've made a lot of progress since then on some of those fronts but if you look at the overall contributions of the World War II generation they left behind in America that was the strongest Society country since ancient Rome in terms of our political and economic power in terms of our military power in terms of our cultural influence America was right there on the top and there was this sense that we could do anything we put our mind to Reagan firmly believed that America was capable of doing almost anything it wanted if it was United and if it was committed to a project and I think there was a lot of Truth to that and what we've seen since of course is

11:21 an erosion in all those the models of how to get things done and as a result we're losing faith in the Democracy itself for losing faith in each other and I think we're on a very dangerous path on that regard in terms of our democracy is more vulnerable than it looks can you tell us about President Clinton and what we can learn from his leadership I worked for Bill Clinton for a year a year and a half when he first came into the presidency and he floundered in the beginning he had a hard time finding his footing I had known him a long time and he thought I knew knew my way around Washington or how to deal with the Press Corp and that sort of so six months into his presiden he asked me if I'd come in taking into account that I had worked for three Republican presidents and I was pretty much a free spirit and I'm more of a Centrist than on either one of the extremes but Bill Clinton when I got

12:14 there when he was in trouble he was sort of in a ditch what I found was that he had lost his self-confidence it's a big leap from place like Arkansas land bound state to go from there to the presidency it's asking a lot of a person Carter ran into the same problem making a leap from Georgia I was a peanut farmer into the White House that's hard to do so Clinton have been knocked around a little bit but our approach my Approach and that of others was to not try to remake him I don't think you can recast people very well especially people who are in their 60s or 50s or 60s they are who they are who they are you can't sort of come up with a new persona what you can do is to restore their self-confidence that's what we tried to work on with Clinton and what I found was he was a very apt student he snapped to very quickly as he we created this sort of safety zone around him and he gradually got out from

13:09 under all the criticism that was coming his way and worked his way out and he worked his way out of the ditch and one of the things I think is important about a president is he kept growing he kept learning some people reach an apley in in their leadership and then they sort of flat line and the world is changing so quickly if you're not curious about how the world is evolving you just don't get it and Clinton when I first met him he was reading a book on the Japanese quality circles and at that time you know everybody was scared the Japanese were 10et tall going to come another Japan too often we exaggerate the threats to the country in order to get people stirred up but Clinton was I think he was the smartest man I've met in the presidency when he literally quite literally you could go into a conversation in the Oval Office and be three or four people talking to him and he was an active participating in the

13:58 conversation he would listen carefully but while you were talking he would be filling out a New York Times crossw word puzzle now I found that daunting that somebody could be filling out a New York Times cross he'd look up in the middle of something say who is that character in the second act of AA so I found it daunting ultimately I found it insulting that our wor meant so little that he could focus somewhere else but nonetheless he was bright and I think he did roll with the times he obviously had not really come fully to grip with his own personal weaknesses Temptations and that sort of thing and that I think he paid a price he's paid a price with historians because he was seen as sort of taking advantage of women or praying upon women harassing that was not my experience with him my experience with him was he was completely seductive he was seductive with men and women but it was all consensual as far as I could

14:49 tell certainly it was and with everybody I knew around him and uh but that's just who he was and he had a huge sharp mind to remember people he was such an extrovert that he could remember people extremely well he met my mom during the Carter years I think it was or during the no I'm sorry it was late a little later than that but he met her and had a couple of conversations with her and then I brought her in two years later I brought her into the White House to say hello to him he remembered her nickname he remembered the conversation he'd had with it a couple years earlier then she was Florida I mean she was completely captivated she was completely seduced and my mom was like 75 years old but she fell in love with Bill that is wonderful how do you see President Obama's leadership and what lessons can we learn from his leadership clearly he's going to be an historic figure as the first black president and I think

15:44 that he is stayed pretty close to his true north in his days in government and his days out of government I think he remains a moral leader in many significant ways he didn't have huge accomplishments that you could say will he pass this bill he passed that bill he came a long way on healthare obviously but I think he left a mark and he opened the door for a lot of other people who have been coming through we have a lot more people of color we have a lot more women coming through the doors and who want to be in the arena and I think that's partly the ties that he built in the black community those ties lived on they were a major asset for Joe Biden when he ran for President Biden wouldn't have won had it not been for the strong support he got for the black community and I think that was partly a legacy from Barack Obama how do you now see President Biden and the Biden White House Biden as as a human being one of

16:38 the most attractive figures we've had in the white house I think the crucibles that he went through with the loss of his wife and daughter automobile accident when he was young and then the loss of his son Hunter we've all learned a lot about that I think that he has demonstrated an empathy and a concern for people who are and trouble that is very admirable he comes from a deep place what I think he's also discovered is that empathy and a very positive personality of the kind he had is not enough to necessarily be a big president the presidency is a tougher place than that and I think that he's had the word of mouth on it that you find in Washington about a lot of people who know him pretty well is he was a very strong man but he goes through life almost as a senator still the people surround thems with or almost all staff people from his Senate days or his Congressional days they go back and that

17:37 group of people while they're fine individuals they're having a hard time finding out what their strategy is their own footing he doesn't have two or three big big goals he has like 20 goals and it's very hard to govern and it's very hard to get big things like done when You' got so many different objectives you're following usually I found mm Baker did a lot to teach me about about this if a CEO has like two or three big goals what you want to do is focus on those and almost solely until you get them solved and then you move on to something else but don't get intermixed with every day something new the spotlight moves on and we'll wait and see how it all turns out but we were starting to see a pattern there's a lot of talk for a few days and then the search light moves on there's a famous book by Walter Libman written back in the 1920s about journalism and about the way the national discourse and he

18:31 compared it to a search light and that the search light moves slowly across the landscape but it keeps moving and you're going to be in the spotlight for a while and you got to get your big things done then because that search light's going to keep moving on it's gonna leave you behind and part of governing well part of leading well is understanding the context in which you find yourself and building on that what do you think so far have been President Biden's biggest successes and biggest failures I think his biggest successes have come in recently reuniting the Western Nations he spent a lot of time reuniting them and I think that he gave real strength to the Marshall planet and going into Ukraine I think the Afghanistan part of the was botch but the Ukrainian part of it and we still as we speak here we're still working our way through it I think reuniting the Western Nations was the big asset what

19:23 he's had trouble doing is reuniting the American people and that has been a failure so far what do you think caused his failure on Afghanistan that was almost at least to me unimaginable the way that exit worked out I thought it was a turning point in his presidency I mean so because it was so clearly a moral issue as well as a logistical issue in terms of getting people out but I think that was the if not the low point one of the low points of his presidency frankly I don't know what happened what the thinking that went into it was so badly I don't think there was strategy and there was certainly no sense of the Tactical plan to get there there was a failure on many front and I agree with you I don't see there's any way you can get around it if our military Prides itself on no man Left Behind no person left behind and we left thousands upon thousands of people who put their lives on the line for

20:18 America many of native afghanis with the Taliban is marauding again and going after women and variety of ways going after young school children it's a gig mess and we bear significant responsibility the search light moved across Afghanistan and we all got excited and one of these see have done about Afghanistan then the search light moved on and now it's on Ukraine and Afghanistan is in darkness again and we're not taking it as seriously as we should our continuing responsibility to protect the interpreters and others who work so hard to protect Americans for so long we still need to get them out of there but yet there's not this National sense of urgency because were into Ukraine and that's what I mean on the search light question and on the question of governance in general if you're going to get it done you need to stick around long enough and be wrestling with it long enough to wrestle

21:08 It To The Ground you can't just sort of get up and say well that was interesting and go on to the next event you've worked in the white house for four presidents and you've also advised several additional presidents which of our recent presidents do you think were our greatest leaders and why I think if you go all the way back to World War I I think there's no question that Franklin Roosevelt Rose above the pack I think he was our most successful president of the 20th century the most important president of the 20th century there were some others I believe and I'm not as conservative as he was I believe that Reagan was the best president the best leader as president or let's not say best puts too much emphasis on the quality of what he was stood for I think he was the most effective president we've had as a leader Linda Johnson is getting more credit than he used to get yet because we're focusing more on civil

22:00 rights and the social issues and the focus is off his Vietnam policies which obviously didn't work it's hard for me to say that any one of the recent presidents we've had is the equal of a Franklin Roosevelt or Teddy Roosevelt or any of the people on about Rushmore what skills and temperament are important early in a career and which ones are important as one climbs the ladder that's a good question one climbs a slippery Pole what becomes increasingly important as you grow up the ladder is you move beyond the skills of being able to run a good team I think increasingly as you go up the ladder is important whether you work well with others outside your team whether there's collaboration with the Great Men Theory how change has made has taken a beating here in recent years we haven't seen many great men what we see occasionally is great groups who come together and we saw that in the Second World War I

22:58 projects that were involved there but we've seen it since I think that the capacity to collaborate constructively with others has become very very important to contemporary leadership but another skill and quality that I think has become extremely important is that a persuasion how does one persuade others to do hard things not easy and and too often now of course political figures especially on the right are resorting to disinformation as way to persuade but I think the true leaders the ones who are going to go down in history are the ones who see that the presidency is ultimately a moral institution and the big questions that come there are moral questions place of women in society the place of blacks in society and opening the doors to people have more opportunity unless you're into that stream I think you have a really really hard time governing how do you think leadership is changing well as I say

23:55 leadership is changing and that the skills that one needs have evolved I would include another skill Beyond those we've talked about and that is uses and understanding of the social media uses understanding of the internet age one of the problems I think the current generation has the baby bone population as it gets increasingly older it's losing touch with younger people how they communicate how they work together what values they hold there's such a gap now between people who are running the country and people who are knocking on the door and would like to run the country over time that I we don't translate easily Joe Biden is a figure who in many many ways has the values and their good values but of someone who's older and it doesn't connect with the younger population and what we need in my judgment one of the most important things we need is it's time to pass the Baton from the generation running the

24:48 country to younger Generations who are knocking on the door I think the people who are now running the country the Baby Boomers there are many fine baby boomers there are many fine people who are Generation X that was the group that came just after the baby boom with people born between 1965 and 1980 and they're knocking on the door now to the Generation X and they deserve their time at B but I think it's becoming hugely clear that as much as the baby boom generation has some wonderful individuals in it as a group they seem incapable of getting the big things done getting the leadership to follow through on their on their goals as leader and so there's an emptiness kind of question of a lot of people s have lost faith in our institutions lost faith in our leaders and we have to win that back and from my way of thinking there's a lot of talent in the younger Generations they have shown that they

25:40 can lead when they're young you can look anywhere from overseas to grunberg and Sweden or Malala in Pakistan or look at the woman ardern who's running New Zealand now so on one hand we have people overseas on the other hand we have a lot of veterans who are coming back now from Iraq and Afghanistan whom I think make terrific political leaders they're hardened up they remind me so much of the World War II generation so I'm I'm spending a fair amount of my professional time trying to help that group they returning veterans but we also have another stream of people whom I admire greatly and that is the people of color especially women of color I think black women have taken to moral High ground and they deserve to be listened to and you know it was young black women who came up with the me too movement it was young black women who came up with the black lives matter young AOC of a different background and

26:32 ly I firmly believe that the people are coming out provide something that's extraordinarily important and that is we need fresh blood we need fresh energy we need fresh Vision we need people who are not so bogged down by the arguments of the past we need to stop looking backwards in that sense and looking forward how are we going to get things actually productively done how are we going to get the environment under better control it's astonishing we've kicked this can down the road again and again and again and now we're up against it there's an urgency now about change and people coming into a position where they have responsibility for the future David how do you see the state of Democracy in America threaten beyond anything we've seen in my lifetime I think this goes far beyond where we were in the Civil Rights Movement the anti-war movement of the 1960s and early 70s I think that there's an anger people

27:25 who were once seen as Rivals now see each other as anime they now think of Politics as a zero sum game if you win something I lose something and politics is usually as in the past when successfully practicing a democracy is a win-win and we've lost so much of that capacity and it's really hard to think there were there was time when I was growing up this before you came along that we had a sense of Heroes in our country and some of them were in in political leadership but some were in sports and some were the Robinson of that day and heroes now become celebrities we interested because the Kardashians or who would but they're not our heroes the question becomes where are the zalinskis in our America we don't seem to have any at the moment I think they are going to be out there I think that there are some individuals are coming along and one of the three I'm so much in favor of the Millennials

28:20 and the j z going forward is they have been knocked around they had had hard times in life they've had a lot of adversity in their Liv they've seen country knocked down but that toughened them up Abigail Adams wrote a letter to her son John Quincy when he was a teenager it a famous letter in which he made the argument that adversity brings opportunity opportunity for people to grow and people and from National adversity so often come Statesmen it's important to remember that my friend Warren Bennis who was a leadership Guru dear man he used to ask me the question how is it that when we were a country of three million people back in the early days of the Republic and we produced six worldclass leaders in a small population you know there was Washington Adams Jefferson Franklin Madison Hamilton all six of them world class leaders and then W Bennis would say today we have 330 million Americans

29:17 and we have a hard time finding one worldclass leader in the group and something happened there that we need to address and I think Abigail was right in this adversity we could see some of the real leaders re emerg are emerge and I'm encouraged about that I confess that I'm a short-term pessimist I think the next few years are going to be extremely rough next five or six years maybe become ungovernable but I'm increasingly in long-term Optimist I do think there're glimmers of hope that are out there now that were not there a few years ago and I see them coming through my classrooms I teach at the Kenedy school at Harvard and I've just seen the quality of students coming through has gone just straight up it's good it's really impressive and you teach Columbia so you know this you see a lot of the nonprofit world the Cheryl dors of the world we certainly need great leaders David before I ask for the three

30:11 takeaways you'd like to leave the audience with today is there anything else you'd like to mention that you haven't already touched upon I think you gave me an opportunity right the end to say what I really want okay so what are the three takeaways first takeaway is we're on an un sustainable path continue down this path very long without paying a huge irreversible price I've analogized it too somebody in a car riding along the side of a cliff 3 o'clock in the morning it's raining like H and the headlights don't work you can write along that Cliff for a while but eventually you're going to go I think right now we ought to be paying attention about what a perilous State we find our democracy in the next thing I would argue to second takeway is that help can be on the way are people out there who are younger now who are dedicated to rebuilding the Democracy I think would Thrive if given more

31:06 responsibility we have seen young people can make a difference already so the second big takeaway is much of our future could rest upon the quality the capacity of the new generations to take the Reigns the passing of the torch has become important the third takeaway I would suggest we need to do a much better job of preparing the younger Generations for leadership we have a small group of people who are doing things in the nonprofit world but we need to be able to expand that and it's one of the reasons I think one of the most important changes we can make is to be serious about national service to have a robust program of national service and which every person between the ages of 18 and 24 is strongly encouraged not drafted but encouraged to volunteer to work in their communities to work in their hometowns or more importantly I think the opportunity is if you're living in rural America you

32:00 have an opportunity to go work for a year or two in at Urban America and see what it is like and while the gunfire and what is happening and there but in turn people in urban America to go out and and in Rural America or they ought to be in the forest there was a precedent for this back with the Franklin Roosevelt again but just shortly in in the second or third month of his presidency 1933 I think it was March April of 33 that he called for the creation of the civilian and conservation core and by that summer we had 250,000 young men in the forest and parks around the country refurbishing those parks and to this day you can go into parks and find what the CCC did way back when it was the most popular program in the New Deal they had brought a lot of young people into the system so you had it was democratizing just as a World War itself was democratizing when you have a Sal and stall from

32:53 Massachusetts saluting a Polish Kid From Brooklyn you know you're moving in the right direction and the CCC was that and I think we could have another CCC already there the makings of it on the environment as for First Responders you know we have some nonprofit groups that are doing that I think this will largely build around the nonprofit Community but I believe there are opportunities out there and working with the younger generation that we will surprise ourselves with how good they can be David thank you thank you for our conversation today thank you for your service in government for your teach teaching of leadership and for your two books on leadership both of which I really enjoyed thank you so much Lyn it's good to be with you and I appreciate the effort you're making here the work you're doing and I look forward to seeing you next week in Washington good that'll be terrific if you enjoyed today's episode

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Questions about this episode

What is discussed in "#96 Presidential Advisor David Gergen: Democracy in Peril and New Leadership"?

In order: 0:00 Ronald Reagan, Center for Public Leadership, Hearts Touched with Fire, Lynn Tomman.

What is mentioned in this 3 Takeaways episode?

5 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including David Gergen, Ronald Reagan, Lynn Tomman, Center for Public Leadership, Hearts Touched with Fire. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "#96 Presidential Advisor David Gergen: Democracy in Peril and New Leadership"?

The episode runs 34 min; the transcript is about 6,418 words in 38 timestamped sections.

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