Transcript

Best of Wednesday 2025 | Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard

From Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard · Episode page · Watch on YouTube

· 1 h 21 min · 16,556 words · 410 timestamped sections

This is the full, timestamped transcript of "Best of Wednesday 2025 | Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard", an episode of Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard published December 24, 2025 (1 h 21 min, about 16,556 words). It mentions 16 people, works and ideas, including US Open, Scott Payne, Sean Lennon, Pakistan, Amy Lynn Bradley.

What is discussed, and when

  1. – 10:00: Scott Payne, Dak Shepard, Scott Andrew Callaway
  2. – 20:00: Sean Lennon, Bla1 Aguire, Robin Williams
  3. – 30:00: Mary Claire Haver
  4. – 40:00: Pakistan
  5. – 50:00: Amy Lynn Bradley, Chris Christie, Pakistan
  6. – 1:00:00: Amy Lynn Bradley
  7. – 1:10:00: Cali Cartel
  8. – 1:20:00: Cali Cartel, Marty Fish, US Open
  9. – 1:21:27: US Open

Notable quotes from "Best of Wednesday 2025 | Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard"

  • He's an out from episode 900 with Scott Payne.
    about Scott Payne · at
  • Not very humorous at the moment, but I remember Scott Andrew Callaway. So, I write that down. I take all my upper clothing off. I probably was layered cuz it was cold. I take my boots off. I pull my underwear and jeans down to my.
    about Scott Andrew Callaway · at
  • Like that was like their world. This and I remember waking up in the middle of the night and Robin Williams at the time Mor and Mindy was the biggest thing and I love Morg came…
    about Robin Williams · at
  • Huge apartment. Yeah. And I'm guessing if you're a couple blocks from, as you later met, Sean Lennon. Yeah.
    about Sean Lennon · at
  • Yeah, I was completely different person when I was in Pakistan. I was you were popular and outgoing, mischievous. I was in every competition, debate singing playing cricket,.
    about Pakistan · at
  • Yes. So, what happened in this country is that back in 1992, Senator Bill Bradley, former New York Nick, had passed a federal law that forbid states from legalizing sports gambling that didn't have it already.
    about Amy Lynn Bradley · at
  • And I think we all have preconceived notions, right? So, we're thinking head of security for the Cali cartel. He's going to be like a really bad guy.
    about Cali Cartel · at
  • Okay. So, you win the 2003 US Open. you are I'm dying to go to the US Open. No one will invite me.
    about US Open · at

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

  • Scott Payne — Person · 2 mentions · first at
  • Sean Lennon — Person · 2 mentions · first at
  • Amy Lynn Bradley — Person · 2 mentions · first at
  • Dak Shepard — Person · 1 mention · first at
    Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. I'm Dan Shepard. I'm joined by Monica Padman.
  • Scott Andrew Callaway — Person · 1 mention · first at
  • Robin Williams — Person · 1 mention · first at
  • Bla1 Aguire — Person · 1 mention · first at
    From episode 862 with Bla1 Aguire.
  • Mary Claire Haver — Person · 1 mention · first at
    Is tackle self-hatred. Why aren't any therapies tackling self-hatred from episode 871 with Mary Claire Haver?
  • Chris Christie — Person · 1 mention · first at
    Have it. New Jersey gets upset they can't do it and Chris Christie, governor of New Jersey, launches what seems to be a quicksotic and feudal lawsuit to try to get overturn Bradley's law. It succeeds in 2018 and in 2018 the Supreme.
  • Marty Fish — Person · 1 mention · first at
    Yes, that's true. I was playing my friend Marty Fish who ended up being a really good player. he was six in the world. And so we used to play this basically all the kids who didn't get picked by the federation, right? So.
  • Malala Yousafzai — Person · 1 mention

Companies & orgs

Places & events

Full transcript with timestamps

Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. I'm Dan Shepard. I'm joined by Monica Padman.

Hi. And today is Best of Wednesdays 2025 edition. He's an expert. He's an out from episode 900 with Scott Payne.

They carried me down clos line who's supposed to be my second closest friend. Says, "Yo, Tex, you got a minute." And I said, "Yeah." And then we he walks me through this door that I'd never been in. Even though I've been in that clubhouse I don't know how many times. It's the only door I hadn't been through. And it leads into a very tight stairwell down into a if I call it a basement, that's being generous because I couldn't stand up straight. It's

more of a crawl space. Yes. And I could I could touch the wall probably on both sides. I see rope.

Oh no. Um I see that they both brandished their pistols. One outlaw follows me and he stands on the steps with his pistol and he's watching and clos line proceeds to tell me I need you to he goes he says there's a lot of [ __ ] going on and it's my job to take care of my brothers. I need you to take off because I want you to write down your full name, date of birth, social security, all everything

and I need you to take all your clothes off because I need to check you for a wire.

So now I'm like I hate this. Yeah. Yeah. Me too. Me too. And there's no one in a van across the street.

We'll get to that. Okay. But really quick also you're you have to be playing the game in your head where you're like, "Okay, so I'm not wired. I am the guy. What's my reaction?"

Yeah. Right. You're trying to I would love to say yes to that answer, but I was [ __ ] gold.

I was going I was having an adrenaline dump. Yeah. I had that panic. And this is a fight or flight or freeze.

Yeah. Midbrain is in charge. And then you are hopefully doing what you've trained uh or rehearsed in your head. And that's what I did. I if I had not seen me do these things on the video, I would have never known I did them. But just like I can show you cops and and military first responders in shootouts, they have no idea how many rounds they shot. They have no idea that they did a magazine exchange behind effective cover. They just do it because they've trained it so much and it's instinctive.

So, in the undercover world, okay, now I'm down there. I'm trying to write my name down. I'm having that adrenaline dump. In other words, if you've ever been through a traumatic incident, whether it's a car wreck or whatever, everything just slows down and your auditory exclusion, everything's going whoosh, whoosh. What I'm hearing is like, Scott, I need

I've even had sight get minimal closing in. That's tunnel vision. So that happens. You're getting the tunnel vision and everything's time dilation. It's in clicks. It's like in frames, right? You go click, click, click. You can hear and feel your heart beating through your entire body. Palms are sweaty. I'm starting an Eminem song here. But

I'm trying to talk and I'm trying to write my name and I forgot my middle name. I've been this dude forever. I know.

I know I'm Scott Cal. Yeah. But because of the stress, I don't even know. And and it was uh I was blessed enough to put this training on to some Navy Seals and it was this guy that in one of the SEALs caught it and he said, "Man, if you look, your hands not even shaking the entire time you're trying to read trying to remember your name." And I'm like, "Well, my insides were shaking right now."

Um and and I yell back. I'm like, "And what else do you need?" I don't even know I do it. And he's like, "What?" I go, "My name and what else?" It didn't sound that clear, though, because I'm crapping myself. It sounds like what else do you need?

My name, you know, I'm not. Yeah, I'm not even annunciating. He yells up and I hear, "What do you need for that website?" So, I'm like, "Okay, they're going to Google search me." There was a who's a rat.com. There was things like that. And I go, "Okay, I'm cool with that."

Then I remember my initials were SACE cuz that, as I said before, is the head of an FBI office and I thought that was funny because I know I'd never be one, you know. So, I made my initials. Little humor for myself, you know.

Um, not very humorous at the moment, but I remember Scott Andrew Callaway. So, I write that down. I take all my upper clothing off. I probably was layered cuz it was cold. Um, I take my boots off. I pull my underwear and jeans down to my ankles. So, from ankle up, I'm I'm naked.

And, uh, it was cold. Sure. And you were scared. Wasn't your best showing is my guess.

I'm not attracted to you. I feel like I'm getting ready possibly getting ready to die.

In the in the in the terms of a Seinfeld episode, that was a whole different level of shrinkage. Oh my god. We're dealing with a woman. I thought he was an FBI agent. It's a woman.

I know. I don't care what I look like right now. I just want to get out of here, you know?

So, I I take all my clothes off and he checks everything. And I again, adrenaline dump. I'm going I'm trying to talk and if you it like I know clothesline for a year and a half at this point.

Yeah. So, if you saw what my face was saying to you, even though my words aren't saying it, my face is saying, "Tell me I'm okay."

Yes. And his face back to me is kind of like, "Look, it's just business." However, he doesn't know that I'm an FBI agent undercover who's wired to the hill.

Yeah. He's probably like, "Why are you that like don't be that worried?" He said, "Man," he goes, "Trust me." And these are his words exactly. I think they even quoted in the news in the press release after the takedown. He said, "Trust me, if somebody accused me of being a fed, I'd probably smash them in the effing mouth." And I said, "I'm not happy." And he said, 'I wouldn't be either. And uh and I tell him, I'm like, "Look, you guys asked for this.

I did not come to you. You came to me. Nobody has to do anything." Yeah. If nobody wants to do [ __ ]

Yeah. Nobody has to do [ __ ] Those are my exact words. Not as clear as that, but cuz I'm craping my pants. But

I think I'm done. And all the gears in your clothes somehow obviously some yes some no trade craft I will say you can't say but you aren't exposed currently like they didn't find they're not

they're not seeing correct I think I'm done and then I'm pulling my pants back up I'm putting my boots back on and then he grabs a particular piece of clothing

and when he grabs it I'm like oh and he says when he grabs it he goes hey I'm not going to find anything here I don't want to right like some naked pictures of my old lady and he goes and my laugh is like, you know,

Yeah. Yeah. So, I'm and I even say, "I hope not." Now, I'm sitting here up against the wall, my head tilted, and I'm watching him take this piece of clothing and go through it. We call this kneading. He's kneading it with his hands

and he's feeling it. And I'll just say this, technology-wise, in 2007, had he grabbed that part of that clothing, he would have felt something.

Yeah. Um, and he gets close. And he even looks directly at a camera and and misses it.

So while he's doing that, you think my adrenaline's here and then it dumps and then it's here and then it dump. It's evident and fluent. When he's doing that, I have no idea how I do it. But you can hear clear on the recording me watching and I go

cuz I don't even know I'm doing it. It's a verbal sound. Yeah. Because my insides are saying

it's over. Oh [ __ ] Yeah. And oh god. And then he says uh he misses it and um he hands it back to me and I go right into business. But it's just nervous chatter. Joking is a even though I'm a jokester anyway, it's definitely a self-defense mechanism.

Yeah. I feel like I can't breathe. I try to crack a joke. Things like that. PTSD is kicking in, whatever.

So I go right back to business. Um and and people ask um all the time, "Hey man, what would you have said if you had found it?" And I remember it like it was yesterday. Uh I had my first response probably would have been something funny.

If he would have said, "What is this?" I might have said, "I don't know, some naked pictures of you, old lady, to try to buy me some time to laugh it off."

The only other response I had is the gig is up. I'm an undercover FBI agent and I can walk out of here and we can see each other in court or all hell's going to break loose. And here's the kicker. That would have been a bluff on my part because up until that point, to my knowledge, my cover team could never hear. For whatever reason, thick walls, bad equipment, whatever. They could never hear me in that clubhouse.

What? But you didn't know that. Yeah, I did. You did. That's why that's what it would have been a bluff.

Yeah. Oh my. You would just have to be betting on the notion that they're they're going to assume they're watching

and if you don't come out now they've got a fed murder. That's what you've got to be hoping because best case scenario is they have and they've done the math

and you've got you you always try to plan contingencies. Contingency plan A, B, C, D, four or five moves ahead, right?

But um he didn't find it. He hands it back to me and that night my adrenaline dump just turns into anger. I end up going out with Joe Dogs in Scott Town. And luckily, they didn't take it personally or anything, but I I took it personal and I shouldn't have cuz I'm just undercover, but

I was pissed. Now that adrenaline is coming down, I'm like, who in the if I go, you know what? Tomorrow, if y'all do show up, I'm stripping you naked in the parking lot. How's that?

Yeah. Yeah. Come prepared. It's going to be chilly. Yeah. You know, that's good cuz that's what you would have done if you weren't undercover.

Well, it's also hard to know. You're just modeling these scenarios, you know? It's kind of like what what's annoying about some of these docs you watch where the cops come and they're like, "He wasn't acting like someone whose wife just died." It's like, "How the [ __ ] do you know how someone acts when their wife?" Like, that's [ __ ] That's what you saw on TV. That's what you thought of in your head. Nobody knows what anybody does until it's happening.

Yeah. And and again, I took it personal. I'm like, "You took That's the same thing I would have done if Scott Payne. Who do you think you are taking me into a damn basement?" Even though they were right. I wasn't undercover,

right? Yeah. Yeah, you didn't have the moral high ground. But that's what we all do. We justify things to ourselves. Even if we know we're wrong, we can find a way to be right.

From episode 941 with Mark Ronson. I'm always most interested in people's youth when I interview them. I'll even get comments like, "Yeah, why do you bring up this movie?" I'm like, "I don't care about that. I care about like how people ended up being capable of making that movie." So, I love it because this book is just you're just taking me to the end of the '9s basically. And even the beginning, uh, you have a very fantastical, is that the word? I mean, you have a really,

you have a really strange and unique childhood. Did you understand how unique it was?

Can you have a sense of that? Yes, I think I had a sense of both things. I I think what's um my parents were this young partying couple in London. They have money. My my dad my dad came from some money. So they they had this house there. All these rock stars always hang out back there and I'd wake up in the middle of

You started a publishing company. Yeah. A music publishing company. And like that was like their world. This and I and I remember waking up in the middle of the night and Robin Williams at the time Mor and Mindy was the biggest thing and I love Morg came in and woke woke me up. And I had this vague hazy memor for you. He's definitely gacked out of his mind.

Ged out of his mind. My mom is definitely having a good time too and he keeps running to the window to to look out stuff. But I was also like

my parents I was used to the fact I kind of say in the book that par adult adults were more fun at night. Adults in the day were a little scary and badteered and irritable and maybe you had to avoid them. But at night everything was all good.

Interesting. So, I remember thinking, "This is strange and unusual, but I'm sure it perverted my sensibility of what was normal from an early age."

But he's leaving the room and you say, "Yeah." I'm like, "You you you forgot their thing." And he turns back and he knows right away and he's like, "Nanu nanoo, you know, and I was just like, he knew what I wanted."

And would he go like that? Did he do this? I think he did. He might not have had the dexterity at that moment.

I let him do it. He had he had the thing and you know towards the end of the book I was out at a restaurant and and I saw him at the table and and I just wanted to go up to him but I kind of like punked out and uh to ask him if he remember my parents' house and the universe gave me a second opportunity. He walks towards our table going to the toilet and I'm like Mr. Williams. I know this is so crazy and there's no way that you'll remember this, but I one of my earliest childhood memories was you coming into my room like as a kid and he like stops for a second. He's like, "Wait, your parents had the house on Circus Road?" And I was like, "Yeah." He goes, "Man, they threw some [ __ ] crazy parties and kept walking like exactly what you want from Robin W from that thing." And and he he even remembered it. And

I bet he remembered it cuz it was at the beginning for him. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like I bet if that had happened for him 18 years later, you know, it gets in that merc of too many neat things happening at some point.

Yeah. Then you and your two sisters moved to New York. Yeah. To the Upper West Side or West uh what? Central Park West.

Yeah. In your what age? Sorry. At this point, um uh eight. Eight or nine when we moved to New York. Yeah.

And move into this pretty outrageous huge apartment. Yeah. And I'm guessing if you're a couple blocks from, as you later met, Sean Lennon. Yeah.

Were you in the San Remo building? Yes, we were. You were lived in the San Remo building when we first moved there. Well, first we moved there, my stepdad had like a little bachelor pad on Riverside Drive and suddenly it's like he's living with three kids in his like

champ. He really was. Three kids, right? He was. And then Foreigner were just hitting this amazing peak, you know, like all these smashes and he they bought this really fancy apartment. For reference, the next tower, or maybe it was your tower, but the Studio 54 guy had the top of one of those towers.

Yeah. Uh Tony Randall from the Odd Couple. Oh, sure. A deep cup, but he was on the set. Dustin Hoffman.

See, this is what I'm talking a very unique childhood. Extremely. Yeah. But there were like crazy [ __ ] that happened with this dichotomy of knowing that all this stuff was crazy going on. Like there was this one time that I stayed at Sean Lennon, who's one of my closest friends at his house when Michael Jackson came over for a sleepover. And I know

on the bad tour on the bad tour. Um also a sleepover. There's a lot here. Yeah, there's a lot. It does. It is different now to say some of these things for sure.

Wow. This is why. But even with that, I knew not to say anything school the next day cuz I didn't want to be teased mercilessly or be made to be like, "Oh, you [ __ ] dick." Or other or look like braggy. So like there was this thing of like I knew it was crazy. I also knew to keep as much of it to myself.

So that was a really Yeah, I that was a very specific part for me. Yeah. They're throwing wet toilet paper balls off the side, which I also did.

Soggies. Yeah, please get right. Milford Plaza Hotel as a kid for throwing soggies.

He just wanted to Michael Jackson was just really intent on packing wet mounds of toilet paper and just pelting them nowhere near people, but just hearing them splat on the sidewalk.

It's very rewarding cuz you start with and I don't want to encourage anyone to do this cuz it's dangerous, but I will say, okay, you start with a toilet paper this big. When that [ __ ] thing hits the ground, if you're 30 plus up,

it's 8 foot wide. It's very instantly rewarding if you're little. Wow, I made that huge thing.

It's like if you drop a penny off the Empire State Building or something. They say it would crush a cab. I don't know if that's true though.

I think they told us that as kids to tell us not to throw pennies. I I don't want to I I have didn't put this in in the book, but [ __ ] it. Um, we did hit the hood of a car and there was this just like [ __ ] sound. It sounded like a a tank blast on the 10th 10th floor. It's so telling because that is something you do as a kid. Yeah.

That's what kids do. They make little balls of toilet paper and throw it at things. It's so reflective of him.

Well, he was playing laser tag. He said he was like more kidlike. Yeah. Like do you remember um the first time like you want cuz you're wonderful and young and the Sharper Image that first laser pen light that kind of shone that long infrared pen. They just decided that nobody ever needs that thing. So it was discontinued. I think it was also dangerous for your eyes if you

I'm sure it was everything about it was wrong. Um, Michael Jackson had made the guy who he obviously had incredible lasers and [ __ ] on tour. The guy who built those lasers for him built him his own little box that you could plug in the wall was about this big a metal and it shown a single green laser that probably shown like hundreds of feet, you know, cuz he was playing in [ __ ] arenas and stadiums. So we were running around and holding it up to the window and shining it floors down, but nobody had ever seen the only thing you compare it to would be like the thing on an Uzi like the the sight thing or whatever, right? So like we're shining it on the street and like there's a guy walking the dog. The guy can't see cuz he's sitting and the dog's just like like freaking out sing. It's terrible.

Everything about it. I would hate I would never do that now. But um yeah, that was what he wanted to do. And in an absurd foreshadowing of who I was to become, I was just like, "This fun games is great. Michael, give us a baseline. I want to go back and like make a demo." Like I was just like remember being really concerned with cuz my stepdad had a studio where I made demos. And I remember Michael actually was just like, "Okay." So he like he did this thing where it was like, of course I'll never forget it was so Michael. He like did like a like a arm out like snap and he started to sing this baseline that went and I was like, "Okay, it's a little ripoff from Smooth Criminal, but we'll take it." And made a whole [ __ ] song from this baseline that Michael Jackson gave us.

This is shocking. Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare. from episode 862 with Bla1 Aguire.

Okay. So, let's uh start if you're willing. What first of all, what is the difference between a mood disorder and a personality disorder?

Yeah. So mood disorder, you know, as we sort of think a little bit about it is is that you have discrete episodes of mood states, typically either depressed or manic,

that last for a certain period of time, 10 days, 2 weeks, um, and respond typically to treatment such as medication and cognitive behavioral therapy. and that there's really um when you're in that state, there's very little reactivity to that state. So when somebody's depressed um they stay in that state for this period, some period of time.

With personality disorders, there are traits about who you are. You know that the way that you experience yourself in relationship to other people and that those traits, so maybe it's uh maybe you're emotionally very intense. Mhm.

Um maybe you tend to be reactive to what people say and do. That those personality traits when activated interfere with your ability to function. So what's confusing is that say somebody has you know borderline personality disorder and everything's going fine. to the outside observer, they're just like doing fine. But then somebody says, so then they're on Instagram and they didn't get invited to a party and they see all their friends at a party and now there's incredible rage, incredible anger, incredible jealousy, envy and it spikes their emotional state and in that state they cannot function. Their uh relationships begin to be impacted. Um maybe their work does. Oh, so that's already revoly to me because I thought of it as like a status quo. You're in a state of this disorder. Period.

Exactly. And and this is what's interesting. Let's just say that somebody was drunk and they they walked into the studio.

Yeah. And we all walk in independently that we could see that the person is drunk. You know, that that that state is permanent in in that moment.

But let's just say it's somebody with borderline personality disorder and you guys have a good relationship with that person. But I really pissed them off.

So then you come and you're chit chatting and everything and I walk in and suddenly you see this spike of rage.

From your perspective, that person seems to be doing fine, but from my perspective, all of a sudden this person's angry and maybe they're devaluing me or very very upset and you guys are saying like, "Wait, what's going on?" So, so that state only manifests when there's something either interpersonal

or intrapersonal inside their own head, right? Um, that gets triggered. Now, is narcissism uh in a state of flux as well?

It's interesting that I don't know narcissism as well. And the reason why is because people with narcissism don't tend to come in for therapy.

Yeah, we had a narcissist expert and and she said exactly that. the one of the rarest cases to come seek treatment.

Yeah. You can't diagnose it really cuz who's coming in? Understand it correctly from the the expert we had on it's like you don't you don't suffer from narcissism the way you suffer from some other person.

It's the scariest one because they're in it in such a way that you can't even they don't want to feel better.

Maybe I could teach you a thing or two. Okay. No, what I'm saying is that's what the narcissist will say. But the most common co-orbidity with a personality disorder is another personality disorder. So you can have borderline personality disorder with some narcissistic traits.

And and one of the ways in which I have been able to work with a few cases of people with narcissistic personality disorder is to say

here's the thing is no one actually likes you. Yeah. And you also have to just call it out as the truth. You know, it's sort of like I know that you feel that people adore you and you're surrounded by, you know, people who you believe are supported, they don't actually. And the thing about it is you can't even see it. So, what I'm going to say is I'm going to teach you how to see the world differently. Even if you don't feel that what I'm telling you is true, because what's happening is that you're kind of lonely for a narcissist. Like, what's going on?

You know, you know what? Is it actually about everybody else or maybe it's about you? So, you know, so so mostly it's hard for me to answer that question only because I see so few people with uh NPD.

Yeah. So, what are the symptoms of of borderline personality disorder? Yeah. And I talk a lot about it in in the book because that's the group that I found with most self-hatred and self-loathing was the group of people with borderline personality disorder. Okay. So, if we go through the criteria, the first uh criteria is frantic efforts. to avoid real or imagined abandonment. So what do I mean by that? Nobody wants to be abandoned, you know, and say like, "Okay, I'm going to go home. My kids and wife have disappeared or whatever."

I know. I'm already scared. Every time we have someone on who's speaking about like psychology, I think I have it.

That's your OCD. No, what's so beautiful about this is that is I mean, we're all on the spectrum. I mean we all have like who wants to be abandoned but it's not so much that we fear like anybody would say I'm saying okay like you guys are going to go the people go home the people who love you aren't going to be there because they don't want to be there with you anymore. Well that would be terrifying.

Yeah. But the person with borderline personality disorder fears it whether it's real or whether it's not real. So um you know and sometimes it's like boy this relationship is so painful for me. um that I I can't be with you anymore. And so then that's real abandonment. But then the other one is like no one's ever liked me, no one's ever cared about me. I just worry that people are going to abandon me. And so then what they start to do is these are this is the first part of the criteria. Frantic efforts to avoid the abandonment.

What does that mean? It's constant texts, constant phone calls, constant seeking of reassurance.

Yeah. Then to the other person, it's like how many more times do I need to tell you I love you? And it becomes actually the kind of behavior that then creates the self-fulfilling prophecies like I can't do this anymore.

Yes. What I like about there's lots of excerpts of dialogue between you and patients

and I'm I don't know why but I'm blown away with how intelligent some of the patients are and how articulate and some of them are are downright confrontational with you which I think is so brave and cool. I think there there's something about the dynamic that

um makes that hard. Yeah. And uh one of your patients, a young woman, is like, "You're not listening to me."

Exactly. Yeah. I'm not like upset with myself in this moment. I hate myself across the board.

Right. Like, you need to [ __ ] listen to me. And I'm I'm like impressed and grateful that someone would have that conviction to push back against you like that.

I tell patients, I said, like, if I've gotten it wrong, you've got to just tell me I've gotten it wrong because otherwise I'm going to continue down this path believing what I believe to be. you you too are also limited by your own experience. So yes, you've learned from the DSM all these other things and you know how to look for them, but because you yourself can't necessarily relate immediately to a constant state of self-hatred,

right? It's a little inconceivable until it's detailed for you. Yeah. What does it mean?

Yeah. Like cuz I think a lot of people go like, well, I hate myself often. When is it a pathology sometimes or whatever?

I'm lazy. So let's just imagine a binary world. Do you identify as male? Yes. Female?

Yes. Okay. Now, how certain are you of that those states? 100%. 100%. Okay. What if I told you that you were wrong? What if I told you that you know what, I actually quickly snuck a DNA test and uh you're actually you're actually XY and you're actually XX. Now, how easy would it be for me to convince you that you're female?

It'd be impossible. Impossible. Male. I mean, I guess if you had proof, okay, no, but not only that. Okay, so here's Wait a second.

This couldn't be proven to you. It couldn't. No, but even if I had like, okay, here's your DNA. Here's your DNA. That's what I'm saying. But but Exactly. And and and so even if I said, "Okay, here's some proof." Now, you need to be convinced because

I would pull my dick out and go, "Great, you're holding that. I'm showing you this."

Right. Okay. No, but here's what I want you to do is I you're you're actually wrong about yourself. You are actually female. What would the relationship between me and you be if I kept insisting that you had to see yourself as female?

Well, you would be an adversary. You would be a threat. You would be someone that's living in certainly a different reality than I am.

Exactly. There's because there's nothing that I could do that would convince you to that. That's the that's the level of belief,

right? So So I'm saying like I'm worthless and I am toxic. This is they use often this

term toxic, right? doesn't matter what proof you present to them. Uh right, it doesn't matter. There is no separation from the isness of self-hatred.

Meaning they're as convicted about that as they would be about their biological

biological identity. And then if I say, okay, you know what? I want to start talking about self-hatred. It's it's as alienating as if it would be I want you to start thinking of yourself as this other gender. So like I know I've got kids. Like I know who I am. Like you're not going to convince me out of this. We're wasting time in therapy because I don't want to talk about this.

Yeah. So, it's very hard to tackle. It sounds like Well, that was the problem is that So, I thought, okay, so now what I need to do is tackle uh self-hatred. Why aren't any therapies tackling self-hatred

from episode 871 with Mary Claire Haver? For decades, when you look at why menopause hormone therapy was developed, it was to treat a hot flash. And forever the pathonommonic the poster child symptom was hot flashes or what we call medicine vasom motor symptoms. What was never taught to me ever and I learned like three years ago was we have estrogen receptors in every single organ system in this body and and what I also was taught is in perry menopause it's a slow gentle decline. That's all I learned one sentence to decline until full menopause when you lose function.

It is a rocking roller coaster and your worst symptoms tend to be the the ones like the mental challenges, the brain fog, the cognitive disorders, the frozen shoulder, all of it is perry and late per early.

That's when you're accelerating your loss of bone and muscle. Yeah. And the eggs, right?

We were born with all of our eggs. A million though, that was a shocker to me. So, one to two million at birth.

One to two million. Isn't this a weird? It's like that thing where you you're born with all your eggs and what's the like so really your grandma's eggs are your eggs?

Yeah. So like when your grandmother was pregnant with your mother Yeah. your the egg that made you was inside of your mother inside of your grandmother.

Yeah. So in some ways women have always existed. So there's all this like knowledge, wisdom, and trauma imprinting that goes on through a traumatic pregnancy.

Okay. So there are 6,000 women reach menopause every single day in the United States and there are only 2,300 providers certified in menopause medicine. So once this occurs to you and you're going through it and you start getting serious about your own reluctance to go through this, which is a great motivator, um how do you approach it? What do you start looking at or how do you even begin assembling what becomes the toolkit?

Yeah. So, I wish that I could tell you you could confidently walk into your OB/GYN, your family medicine, your internal medicine doctor and have a reasonable logical conversation about your plan of care in permenopause and menopause.

Yeah, that is not possible right now. It is not the fault of the individual doctor. They may have been excellent in your birth and your pregnancy plan, you know, in every aspect, but because of this six hours. So, right now, they surveyed residents coming out like three years ago, only 30% felt barely adequately trained to treat menopause. Like, yeah, it's it's awful. So, at least they're honest. So,

call ahead, you know, look on the Menopause Society website, which is menopause.org, and see who has passed the test and is certified there. It's not perfect. Not every, you know, there's always people out there who aren't great doctors, but who took the test. But it's somewhere to start.

We crowdsourced with my followers, and I've got thousands of testimonials, and we organize them by country, city, and state to help people find. They don't pay me, you know, just to go find a provider who might be able to help you. And right now, it's it's pretty slick. There's some great tele medicine companies that have been developed, mostly female founded, who saw a gap in care and they saw a need and they developed these tele medicine companies to serve them in a

so you don't have to live in Los Angeles or wherever. I have women calling me from New York, LA, London, you know, the most well-connected you would think. Exactly.

Who have the same basic questions and the same worries and the same fears and cannot find help as the woman sitting on the couch in Iowa.

Yeah. Okay. So as you start focusing on it and and and kind of pledging to get competent in it and start help and treating women.

Yeah. Are you yourself even shocked with the amount of symptoms? Cuz I wrote down symptoms and it's about the longest list of symptoms I've ever written.

I was shocked and most of that was driven by questions I got on social, you know, as my little social media platform was exploding. women are you when 10,000 women ask you about frozen shoulder or palpitations or vertigo you're like they can't all be lying

anecotally you're just starting to see these huge patterns of let me look into this

and so then I'm like digging and I'm like yeah there's a they there somebody did the study there's data we've got clear data here so I go online and I make a little video talking about the correlation between menopause and vertigo or menopause and shoulder menopause validations and the world goes crazy I get 10,000 comments oh my god oh my god why didn't my doctor know again were doing a terrible job of teaching, but I was literally learning alongside

my followers. As I learned, I'd make a video and teach. And that's what inspired me to write the book. And they're like, "Please write a book. I don't want to chase you all over social media. It's too complicated. Like, just put it all in one place." Frozen Children is that is scaring me. Like, my mom had it. My grandmother had it.

One of my mother-in-laws has been dealing with it for the last 6 months. So, this is a great this is a great story, and I hope I get the lore right. So if I don't exactly, you know, but the the the story goes the first study on frozen shoulder and menopause, I know it came out of Duke University. I read the paper and it was the head of OBG and the head of orthopedics who both happened to be women and it was something like they were sitting in the doctor's lounge or in the cafeteria and just shooting the breeze over. Can you believe all these women with frozen shoulder? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. You think there's a correlation? I don't know. Let's look into it. They started pulling charts and they were like, "Fuck me. Look at this." Women who are on HRT have a lower incidence of frozen shoulder and they have it they do better.

They have it, you know, they're getting it, but they're getting it less than women who aren't. And they're having a better course, right?

Uhhuh. So, they go to get it published and they go to orthopedic journals first. Nobody would touch it. Nope. This can't be right. Nope. This is an artifact. Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. So, one of the menopause journals published it. And so, then I have a friend Vonda Wright, if you follow her, she's an orthopedic surgeon. She does a ton of teaching and she wrote the paper on the muscularkeeletal syndrome of menopause.

How's that all work? What's the mechanisms there? Estrogen receptors and probably progesterone here as well are all over the muscular skeletal system. We know but we know bones. We got bones down, right? We've known about osteoporosis since I was a resident. I know that one really well. But what what wasn't understood was tendons, muscles,

and where the you know the connections between bones and muscles and how that all works together. And frozen shoulder is adhesive capsulitis. There's a capsule around the ball joint and the shoulder that gets absolutely adhesed and frozen and it's an inflammatory condition

and so it's you can't put your arm behind like you go to take a picture. Yeah. And it's very very painful and it you need early intervention, you need physical therapy, there's needling, there's all they have to break it up, right? Yeah.

And that we can delay the onset and the duration and probably prevent several cases for women on HRT.

And as you said, cuz there are aspects protective, so it's an anti-inflammatory.

But my mom didn't even know that this was connect. I've never heard her once say she had that because of menopause.

Well, no. Most women don't know. Most orthopedic surgeons don't know. You know, we're working to change that. All of this is that paper was written a year and a half ago.

Oh, wow. Okay. So ringing in the ears. Yeah. So ten tonitis. Tenidis. I still don't know how to say it correctly.

Yeah. I had it for a minute and I didn't know what to tell people. I've had it once and man, you know,

people kill themselves from it. It's a maden. Maddening. So again, this is an estrogen receptor problem. So there's, you know, and the vertigo is that the crystals break off quicker from like as is basically osteoporosis in the ear. Oh wow.

And the crystals break off and then float around and you're you're dizzy. But the tenitis, you know, it's the inflammation around the nerve and around some of the uricular bones. Yeah.

That is they feel like is leading to it and that women on, you know, all these studies say age match women, premenopausal women definitely have it less than post and women on HRT are less likely to get it.

Yeah. Wow. What are some other dry skin? So in the in the skin integumentary, you know, skin and the hair

tegimementary I've heard that word that's fancy. So and and all the like follicles and oil and sweat glands. It's the whole system. Right. Right. So

the largest organ in the body that is most absorbent. So we see um that we lose 30% of our collagen. You don't have to tell a woman that she knows in the first 5 years of menopause. We can attenuate that with topical or systemic hormone therapy. Topical works better actually. Which is why I'm on my vanity cream.

Is that a like retinol? No, it's estrogen for the face. Wow. So, it's compounded. Um, but some people take the vaginal product and will mix it in their moisturizer and put some on their face. You should talk to a doctor before you do. You shouldn't do that.

Don't do any compounding at home. So, yeah, mix it up a little mortar and pestl.

So, you lose oil production in the skin. You lose thinness and the transepidermal water loss is much greater.

So, you're just losing all of your barrier, your protection. So the skin is less healthy besides looking

dehydrating at a crazy rate. Yeah. Huh. Dry mouth that's the same. Dry mouth same thing. So mucus production the salivary glands dry up you know we have tremendous dry mouth and dry eyes dry mouth is the same kind of you know

guys I don't want menopause. This is [ __ ] miserable from episode 967 with Malala Yusfai. Now I find this to be the most interesting part because it's so human. So yeah, now you start you start this school in England and it's a disaster, right? It's doesn't high school's not

I I loved that school by the way. But what was really challenging for me was making friends.

Yeah, I was completely different person when I was in Pakistan. I was you were popular and outgoing, mischievous. I was in every competition, debate singing

playing cricket, playing a kid, everything. I mean, and I had friends. I had so many friends.

Now at this new school, I felt like a stranger. I just thought nobody could ever know me. I could not be that old self of mine. And you know, I I would try to like I would try to have a conversation with with people and it just like you started and it dies quickly.

Yeah. It's it's such a like stressful moment, you know? You're like I I hope like somebody picks up this topic and it could be a funny thing and it just it just

it just fell flat. Yeah. Look I mean you had so much working against you. You're from another country. I can't imagine your English was bulletproof at that point, was it? I mean, it was more like textbook English. Textbook English is very different than what people actually speak.

Yes. You have the cultural thing. You have the fact that you're famous, which is an awkward thing.

You've also just been shot in the face, so you're not like feeling 100%. I became very like self-conscious. Of course,

even if like if somebody's like looking at you, um you know, we all look at each other and we all just think sometimes like, you know,

what what what is that person actually looking at right now? Yes, of course. And usually they're not, but we just think that way. But I think at school, yes, I was very self-conscious and I was thinking about

the facial nerve damage on the left side because of the bullet and I just thought like maybe, you know, I I I just was hesitating even to smile because I now had like a crooked smile and

yes, I was when I had acne, I didn't want to go to school. When if I had pimples, I would not interact with anyone those days.

Like it's it's it's hard enough. Yeah. This is it's implausible. and you you you have to sort of carry the weight now. You're people are looking to you to be like the voice of of activism and you're 15 and you're in a new place and people are expecting wisdom from you. Like that's too much.

Well, thank God you were kind of delivering on that front because you're you're just it's a mess at high school.

Yeah. But luckily you are. You're you're rising to the occasion of the political stuff, making the speeches at UN. Like you're you're crushing that part of your life.

Yeah. I mean, I just thought maybe at 15 this is where I'm supposed to be at these UN conferences, bilateral meetings with world leaders, advocating for girls education, running a foundation.

I just thought maybe this is how my life is supposed to look like. I won't get this other thing.

And to be honest, yes, I wanted all of it. I you know I wanted to be a normal student at the same time to be

uh to have friends and to feel loved and and to be able to express myself and to try new things. But

somehow I thought that maybe because I'm supposed to live this activist life. It means

sacrificing. It's one or the other. It's one or the other. And and I was like, "Okay, you know, of course, like I'm I'm sad and I don't feel like lonely." And

but I thought, "Okay, this is how it's supposed to be." You did the cutest things to you, like you you enlisted on field day to to run the 200 meter.

Yes. Dash and came in last. I know. You did so many things. I know. It makes me love you so much

when this is going on and you're like struggling at school and you know I think a lot of American kids they would come home and like tell their parents and I feel left out and did you feel like you could do that

because I don't know how emotions were No I think when you are supposed to be this strong brave courageous girl you feel you cannot complain about not having friends or like you know crying alone in the bathroom to to get over this or feel like oh I wish like more people could talk to me in the in the school dining hall. No, I never I never really shared it with my parents. I would just go home and talk to my best friend in Pakistan.

I would ask her about everything that was happening, you know, with in our neighborhood with our friends and how her studies were going and just try to like reconnect with my old life. And I knew like that's just not a reality. I'm not there. But I used to just imagine myself being there and imagine what life would have been like if I were there. So I like deep inside I just I I wanted um I wanted to to make friends and just know like who is that true malal you know that

and what would my life have looked like if none of these things had happened. So the day when I saw most of the students at my school talk to me was the day when I heard the news about the Nobel Peace Prize.

Oh. So I had gone to school and I was not expected to like that I would get it. I was 17. Yes.

I was in my chemistry class. The school's deputy head teacher walks in and um and calls me outside and tells me that I have won the Nobel Peace Prize.

Oh my god. And I'm like wait what? Yes. And I'm like oh thank you. Thank you. Yeah thank you what she did. Yeah.

But I I actually went back to my class. I I finished my whole school day in hopes that people might engage with you and show interest.

More faces were looking at me that day. When you know when you feel noticed. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

But the day after it was just back to normal. Everybody's looking the other way.

They were all going to McDonald's and you weren't. Yeah. Yeah. Oh man. What a bizarre. You You're winning the Nobel Peace Prize and you're not getting invited to McDonald's. Like none of this makes this is too much.

Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare from episode 891 with Michael Lewis.

People get pissed off because there's a lot of money at stake already. Oh yeah.

Those two companies are 3040 billion companies. It is sinister. Yeah. Uh what we're doing to young men right now,

yes, it's not just with sports gambling, but we're we're creating young male anger at a fantastic rate. If you were going to set out to w to create as much young male anger as you could, you'd do a lot of things. You're doing a great job.

We're doing a great job. Let's take away manual labor jobs. Let's take away the trades. Let's stop sending them to college. Let's get that suicide rate up. Let's I mean it's

let's tell them they're evil and when they're from the from the minute they walk in the classroom when they're in first grade. And then let's create an industry that prays on young male overconfidence

and testosterone and rights of passage and all of that acts of bravery. Yes. And that has um with unbelievable precision the ability to identify people who don't know what they're doing and get them to do as much of it as possible.

Yes. At the same time, they can with great precision identify people who the very very very few people who actually know what they're doing when they're betting on sports and kick them out of the casino.

Yes, it's it's it's diabolical. Those algorithms, they can go, "Oh, this guy's too good of a gambler."

He actually is making edge bets, the bets that have positive expected value. He knows something about golfers that we don't know. We can't take the bet.

And he's gone. So, they just say, "You can't do this." Yeah. They only want [ __ ]

They're allowed to just Oh yeah. They'll say they'll say we we'll either ban you. We This We gave. So we got a pro gambler who knew what he was doing to give us his bets to place.

And we participated a little bit. So it was legal and we got booted out of everywhere in a matter of four or five bets. And it was even even where we'd lost money because they could identify that the bet even though the bet lost, it was a smart bet.

That's like a bar that's only letting alcoholics in. You got to prove there's an alcoholic first,

literally. And then anyone who can manage their drinking, you get the [ __ ] out of here. It's that cynicism.

You're just gonna drink water. We don't want you. Yeah. We want [ __ ] addicts in here.

Be legal. Well, let's go through it. Can we start? I I I was really fascinated with Dan Juan.

It's a great He's a great character. Yeah. So, Dan Juan started studying fans. Okay.

Which no one had really ever studied, right? And I think the con the reigning opinion of people who attended sporting events was a certain type of person. And then through his studies, he found out, well, you know, you'd be surprised to find out that fans are um they donate more money. They're more politically active. They have higher GPA. They're not the group you think they are.

They're socially engaged. They're socially engaged. Yeah. And you know, so they they are but they are not rational.

Right. So now we get into the kind of Conoran Danny Conaman Yeah. take on these guys, which is what happens to someone's thinking when they're a fan?

I mean, it's motivated reasoning, right? It's like you you you you will systematically think your team is going to do better than than you should think or your favorite players. You got one half your brain in a really irrational space already cuz you are a fan.

Well, I like it when he puts it so simply like just the the the original proposition is come spend two hours with us. There's a 50% chance that you're going to be very upset at the end of this and it costs a lot of money. You see the bias right there? Like

any rational person would be like, "No, those are terrible odds. If I'm going to spend a bunch of money, you say half the time I'm going to leave here totally upset."

Yeah. Yeah. And so that you're when you when you introduce gambling into this mind, you're it's already a mind that is it thinks it knows things it doesn't know.

He gets into the superstitions. Yeah. Like you know, and I myself just did this. I went to a Detroit Lions game, the one they lost in the playoffs, and I hadn't been to a game all year. And I went and it was like a big deal. And they lost. And I'm like, it's cuz I [ __ ] I hug I hugged the the coach. He didn't want to hug me. Like, why do I have to hug that [ __ ] guy? Cuz he's on TV. I had this whole story. I'm like, "Oh, Detroit hates my guts." And I'm like, I'm I'm kind of buying it. It's funny what gets studied by academics and what doesn't.

Uhhuh. And as he points out, he's just like the fan was just sitting there waiting to be studied. is such an important character in American life.

And he said, "But but pinheads like me generally don't like sports." Like do it's it's like people were just turning a blind eye to it because they thought it was not worthy of attention,

right? And and for our podcast, it's worthy of attention just to establish that the brain space in which this gambling industry is going to enter

because they are targeting fans. That's why it's very important to understand right out of the gates that a fan is is doing some irrational thinking.

So most people who who bet are a fan of the thing that that's surprising to me already. I would assume most people who get into sports betting aren't fans. So they could be sort of objective.

There are some who do that. Yeah. But but it's kicked off overwhelmingly they are fans.

Wow. Yes. So, what happened in this country is that um back in 1992, uh Senator Bill Bradley, former New York Nick, had had passed a federal law that forbid states from legalizing sports gambling that didn't have it already. And that grandfathered in Nevada, for example, and a couple of other little Atlantic City,

maybe Atlantic City. No, they didn't. Not Atlantic City. No. Oh, they didn't have a sports book there.

Then what happens is that because Atlantic City is not granted, they don't have it. Um New Jersey gets upset they can't do it and Chris Christie, governor of New Jersey, launches what seems to be a quicksotic and feudal lawsuit to try to get overturn Bradley's law. It it succeeds in 2018 and in 2018 the Supreme Court says this law is unconstitutional. Any it's up to the states any state that wants to legalize sports betting can. And since then uh 38 states have legalized it and which creating all kinds of weird natural experiments like you know Alabama doesn't Mississippi does and suicide rates go up in Mississippi and savings rates go down in Mississippi. You can see the effect of bankruptcy all that stuff

from episode 944 Seth Harp. There's a lot of crime in these um uh secretive units and one of the big types of crime that you see frequently is theft from military supply lines because there's an enormous amount of money and material, weapons, uh ammunition, things like gasoline, uh and just straight up cash.

Yeah. Talk about the cash cuz I don't I doubt people would know how much cash is entrusted to these people when they get in these countries to train these soldiers. They have to buy equipment. They have to pay people off. like they do got to throw a lot of money around.

That's the main thing that they do. Just like the CIA, the main thing that they do is throw money around.

And there's just there's hundreds of millions of dollars that get thrown around. I don't think people understand the scale of it.

There's billions of dollars. A lot of it we know was stolen directly by the soldiers who are entrusted with these stacks of cash.

You know, I interview military wives in Fyville who talk about how this is kind of a thing. You know, your husband

comes back from a deployment and, you know, he's got several thousand dollars taped to his body when he gets off the plane.

Yeah. Just skimmed off the top of the OP fund is what they call it, the operations fund.

Wow. By the way, I would do it. I'm like, I'm going to give this bozo $60,000. This guy's a bozo. I'm going to take four. I mean, it's not hard to imagine how one finds themselves skimming when you're giving it to [ __ ] a lot of the time.

It's not hard to imagine, especially when you know, hey, there's almost no accountability over this. This is just a handwritten receipt that I'm signing off of. Nobody cares.

I have a friend who's an FBI agent. He too has to pay informants and stuff. And he said, you know, every time we come back, there's a lot of they have to polygraph after every single time they bring back the money.

And I don't think that's happening here. No, I don't think so. No. You know, the the there's so much less oversight over the military than an agency like FBI,

right? It's so huge. I'm also sympathetic to it. It's like when you're over there, it's like what a [ __ ] machine that's that's trying to run

and keep up. Yeah. And they spent a trillion dollars in Afghanistan. And so the the cash is just a tiny fraction of that.

Yeah. Yeah. Hard to detect, I'm sure. But we do know of um you know, cases where there were several cases, quite a few cases of special forces soldiers being caught, arrested, prosecuted, and convicted for stealing six figure sums of cash. So this is not this is not just an inference or a suspicion.

What's the do you know the what the most? Yeah, I saw one this guy 210,000 you know I think. Yeah. Yeah.

Actually no. You know what? There's there's significantly more because there's all different kinds of uh diversion from the supply lines. There was one sport brag soldier who got caught smuggling $1 million in cash. A female soldier named Tanya Long.

Go get it, girl. 1 million. a million dollars that she was smuggling back in a um in like VCRs or some kind of electronic equipment

really. But she had she had taken that money she and her like likely with conspirators co-conspirators

had taken that money not from the OP fund but through a kickback scheme whole different type of corruption that also exists. The war in Afghanistan was an incredibly corrupt enterprise. the Afghan client state was staggeringly corrupt. And it's no surprise that some of that blew back and rubbed off on our own people who were the ones pumping all the money into there. And one small part of it, but which ends up being important for the culture of the Green Berets is the theft of cash. I was going to point to the a study done um that showed or not a study so much as a count of all the cases that had been adjudicated and they total $52 million in thefts that US soldiers were convicted of stealing. Oh my god.

But that's just a drop in the just a conviction rate I'm sure versus incident rate is probably singledigit percentage.

A final fact I can tell you about this is that the largest transfer of cash in the history of the Federal Reserve was uh I think 343 tons of cash. That's that's a that's how much it weighed.

Yeah.$100 bills. They were put on planes and flown into Iraq and all of it went missing. Billions of dollars worth whole pallets of shrink wrap cash went missing.

Went missing. Say the number again. Here's what I know is accurate. It was the largest transfer of cash in the history of the Federal Reserve. And you wonder where it all went. All these um you know shadowy fortunes that were made out of the war.

And a lot of people that make a bunch of money and decamp for Dubai and never come back. Well, they came up through special forces or JCOK or the CIA.

From episode 9003, James Kimmel Jr. I have one. Great. I have one. Okay, so my apartment building currently um is so disgusting. Like there there this is so annoying. Um randomly nothing of mine is turned on, right? Like I'm not running any water or anything, but randomly there'll be like water soapy like water weird stuff coming up out of the tub into into my tub. Also, it happened in the laundry room and it flooded the laundry room. It's been an ongoing thing and I've had to say over and over again, "This is unacceptable.

This needs to stop now. Fix it." They keep sending in a plumber. The plumber's like, "It's not clogged." I'm like, "I know. Clearly, that's not what's going on here. What are you going to do? Like, what are we going to do? So, that's my grievance.

Okay. So, they're and they're not reacting. They're they're just they're not fixing this the situation at all. Right. Okay. So, let's just do it. Let let's just do it. So,

I'm going to add they're placating you. That's a trigger for me. To keep it shortish, we'll just say that you've just begun testifying as the victim. Okay.

Okay. So, imagine now that you're in a courtroom. Okay. You could close your eyes for a second and just sort of picture the judge's bench and the lawyer's tables and the jury box and maybe the defendant like is the landlord and they're over at their table

and you're over in your your thing. You're in your at your table and there's a judge up there and

you're now on the witness stand and you're testifying to what they've done to you and what's what what has happened to you. And this could be something really significant. So I've done this with people with serious sexual violence,

right? murder people who family members have been killed. So it can be as big or as small as your life, right? But let's just stick with yours. So you testify that that has happened and tell us how that has made you feel.

Um totally unresect disrespected. I pay money to live here and I feel that this is the basic level of care and um hygiene that should be handled by the landlord quickly.

Okay. So, it's very annoying. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So, let's um let's stop with the victim testimony for a minute and let's switch over to So, now you're going to play the role of the landlord.

Okay. Okay. So, the landlord was over at that table. And now the landlord's walking up to the stand and sitting down.

You're just sitting and watching. Y uh that's you as the victim, but now you are the landlord. So, it's actually you in the witness stand.

Okay. Okay. All right. So, you've got to switch that role. Okay. And now your lawyer.

Yeah. Very well- paid, good lawyer. Is going to ask you Jimmy Kimmel Jr. and his name's Right. Jimmy Kimmel Jr.

Thank you. Thanks for that advertisement. Uh, and he's going to ask you, so what's your side of the story?

Monica has complained about some um, water leaking into her building. She showed me pictures. It It looks bad. I've sent the plumber in multiple times. Uh, the plumber doesn't know what's wrong. He's snaked the drain. Um, and it's she's still it's still happening. She's still complaining about it, but um there's not much more I can do.

You would probably add that you you you're looking over like 18 units. There's one of you, you don't have access to everyone else's. The plumber thinks maybe if he chased down this problem and all these other people's units, I can't get them to agree to let the plumber in because they don't have an issue. There might be a lot she might feel like I, you know, I'm doing really everything one person can do with these 18 units and I keep sending the plumber and I'm as frustrated with the plumber as Monica is and she somehow holding me responsible as if it's I'm putting the subs in her tub and I I don't either have anything to do with it. We're on the same team here.

Right. So, you've just now Monica in your own role, you've just sat and listened to the defendant testify. Mhm.

Both ver versions. Uh-huh. How did it make you feel to, you know, hear the defendant's story? What was that like for you?

I understand that there's a lot on her plate. She's just a person. She's not, you know, a machine. She can't just make sure something gets done because I want it done fast. And I still think unfortunately I do think it is her job to make sure that the building is run up to code. So though I have compassion for her, I would still like the thing to be done properly.

So how do you find as the as the jury is the landlord guilty or innocent? Um I think she's guilty.

Okay. I I do think that objectively. That's fair. You're the jury and you get to say what you want. You don't have to apologize.

Well, I feel bad for her and I I do. Which is why I think I can really do this objectively to some extent. Like I don't think she's a bad person.

So, what should your sentence be? Since you found the landlord guilty. Yeah. You're going to have to hand down a sentence. and in the nonjustice system, which is what this is called, or the miracle court, because there's a free app that you can use that

Oh, cool. an audio-driven app where it it takes you through all the steps more methodically than I'm doing right now.

But, uh, in that, you do need to have a sentence. This is This part's hard. I definitely don't want her to get fired.

Okay. So, I'm not sentencing her with that. Can I suggest a sentence that I bet you would love?

Sure. She has to have the same foam coming out of her toe tub and her laundry room.

Whoa. Cuz now she'll be heavily incentivized to deal with the core problem. Unless foam doesn't bother her.

Well, we'll find out. We'll find out. That's funny. That doesn't even cross my mind.

Interesting cuz that's a very I mean your what you did, Dax, is a very, you know, that's a very reciprocal type of of view. And research shows that males are much more

caught up in that. Oh. than women who their empathy centers are more readily available. Males, it goes quiet. When there's somebody does something wrong, males just go towards revenge seeking. Correct. That's right. I

So, I have to deal with this and you should have to deal with it, too. My hunch is once you have to deal with it, you'll be motivated to fix it. Right.

Oh, I don't have that. And I wouldn't want to sentence her with that. Okay. I think I want her to have the phone.

Say, "Oh, well, which is basically what you've already done." Yeah. Which is actually something that does happen from time to time in these trials. As in some people will stop at right after the defendant has testified. They'll get some new insight by adopting the other view that was completely unexpected to them and it'll be shocking to the person. They they may find that they themselves were at fault

or that you know they understand at a very deep level why and they might have done the same thing in the same circumstances. It is a workaround to force you out of attribution error because no one's going to get on the stand and go, I did it cuz I'm a piece of [ __ ] I did it cuz I'm a selfish monster. You have enough integrity even in your own court trial to know that no one would do that. So, in the absence of that, you really have to fill in what they could possibly been have been motivated by or what their explanation is. And it it'll it'll kind of um uh uh inoculate you from attribution error,

right? Well, and it also I mean what we find from the research is it will also reactivate if it wasn't your empathy.

It's a different part of your brain. It's a different part of your brain that was silent like I was saying for males in particular. So it reactivates that

and you gain some uh new insight, but not for everyone. And most of the trials go the whole way to the end, but some people will stop at the defendant's testimony or where you're at here right now. It's sort of almost like it wants to be stopped because you really don't have a sense. You don't have a punishment. Exactly. But you did want to be heard.

I did. And you got to be heard, didn't you? Yeah, it's true. And you're holding them to account in the sense that they had to come and be put on trial.

Right. And I guess the sentence part is interesting because even though I still at the end I'm like yes I think she is guilty of negligence as a landlord but when it comes to sentencing do I think that's worth a sentence?

It makes you start doing that like is that really worth a punishment right? You know

and in your case because the case wasn't a super serious case I mean part of it's driven by the type of case that

you just did. If this was something a romantic betrayal, like I'm gonna be doing this uh next week on Dr. Phil with somebody who's lived through a romantic betrayal, like really bad

and there won't be an easy go through that. You know, that's going to be a seriously difficult thing because the pain of that betrayal.

Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare. from episode 932 with Chris Feel and Dave Mitchell. Here's the head of security for the Cowi Cartel. First, he tells me, uh, let's meet at SEAP, but come alone. I'm like, I'm not coming alone. Are you crazy? I have to come with my partner. And he finally says, okay, all right, come with your you can come with your partner. And then he says, uh, no Colombians, right? Because he was one of the guys that was paying off a lot of the Colombian, so he knew about the corruption. Cuz if I see anybody who's even looks Colombian, the deal is off.

Oh wow. Even if they brought you Monica, he might you might have stood too brown. Yeah.

So we're So we're sitting there thinking like the head of security, the Cali wants to meet us an hour outside of Cali. He's telling us to come alone, telling me to come alone and not to bring any Colombians. And we're thinking like, dude, this could be a trap. This could be an ambush. We weren't sure what to expect. We're not even supposed to leave the base. And then here we are going to go meet this counter intelligence officer. in the middle of a cane field an hour outside of Cowi. So, it was it was pretty uh pretty hairy. I think we outlined that pretty well in the book how we felt because honestly we were we were we were pretty scared. Yeah.

It's funny when we were there. Everything's funny now. At the time it wasn't. But I looked at Chris. I said, "Chris, you ever seen that movie Onion Fields?

This could be our onion field." Why? What happened? I haven't Well, that actually happened in California. It's where some police officers were killed and in the onion field and they made a movie about it.

Uh, okay. So, you meet with him and do you like him? He's not at all what we thought. Right. And just to just to backtrack a little bit when he he says, "Meet us at the Canfield at 3:00." Right. We get out there at 12 before 12, right? Because we're terrified it's going to be an ambush or they're gonna set us up and try to kill us or kidnap us or whatever. So, we're out there in this blistering heat like sitting around for three hours waiting. But we had a good vantage point. So at least we can see

everything coming for a while. So if anybody came in, we were prepared and we were we were pretty heavily armed. Like I say, we we looked like Neo and Trinity when they went into the government control building to get Morpheus. We were loaded.

But as we were there, we noticed we didn't see anybody. Nobody came. Maybe this guy's for real.

Yeah. And I think we all have preconceived notions, right? So, we're thinking head of security for the Cali cartel. He's going to be like a really bad guy.

Something out of the movies. He's going to Exactly. He's going to look a certain way. He's going to talk a certain way. And when we saw him, he was the exact opposite of what we thought, right? Came alone. He wasn't armed. You know, we made sure Dave, you know, patted him down. We checked the car. We were still wary for a trap.

And he said our names first. We went to introduce ourselves. He knew who we were. First though, Dave Mitch. That was a That was a power play for us. They knew everything about us. They had nicknames for us. We were called Los Monos.

What is Los Monos is a monkey. A monkey. But what they would use it for is if somebody is

complexed like the gringos. Where the gringo gringo that's born, they would call them moto.

Oh, that's interesting. It's almost a universal racial slur. Yeah, for real. There's something comforting about that. That was what the cartel called us. They referred to us as the models. But um but he talked real softly like with a very low voice and very like uh the cadence.

Was he even an imposing man or was he just very normal looking? The clothes that he wore the way he walked like not trying to make a sound or an impression. So I look at they like man this guy is like the exact opposite of everything that we

that we thought. And then of course and he the first thing he says to us is like, "Hey, this is going to be a one-time meeting and it's going to be real quick because I got to get back to Cali cuz I'm on standby for Miguel, the head of the cartel."

But as we started to talk and go over things, we ended up being out there 3 hours that first meeting until it got dark.

Was your mind being blown? Were you learning things that were unimaginable? Open up the book.

We learned more. We learned more in those three hours than the whole year on the ground.

Wow. Absolutely. Can you remember one of the most shocking things you heard during that?

Well, there's one thing I I looked at him. I said, "Hey, is I just need to know is DEA a threat?"

He looked at me just like a father would and says, "You and Chris, you work very hard."

Oh, so patronizing. No, he goes, "You guys are hard workers, but no, DEA is not a threat, and this is why." He goes, "You and Chris can go out, talk to anybody you want to gather information, intelligence, but at the end of the day, you don't have arrest powers. You have to deal with the Colombians." And that's where we got you.

Yeah. Yeah. That's not Yeah. It all unravels a second. You got to get official.

And by that point, we were very well aware of the systemic corruption that existed within not only the security forces, but in the government. But just talking to him and how plainly and how simply he would just put out there, oh yeah, well, you can't deal with this person because he's corrupt and the cartel's paying that guy and we paid this guy and and this and that. And it was it was staggering. It was overwhelming the amount of corruption that we were dealing with.

Ask why should we trust you? Well, we did. We talked all about that. But then when we started to hear his story, right? And we talked about that how he got involved in the cartel and that he couldn't get out.

I'd have such a hard time believing it. Really? You don't have a choice. I do. You don't have a choice. And then also I I think you'd be reasonable to conclude

it's not worth them [ __ ] with us. As the as he said, you're not they're not a threat. They don't have to be appeased. They could be ignored.

So why do this? They already know where you're at. Unless they want to kill. Yeah. I would trust it because there's almost no incentive for them to be keeping an eye on you. They're already doing that.

And plus, when we started to talk to him, and at that point, we were pretty well verssed on on the cartel and what they were doing. But talking to him, it just took us to a whole another level. But

we would ask a lot of questions that we knew the answers to. Mhm. Just trying to vet him. And he was basically doing the same thing to us. Like, hey, you guys are kids. You're, you know, we were 30 years old at the time. You know, he's like, "You guys are here trying to bring down the head of the Cali Cartel. you guys. So he was like, "How can I trust you? How do I know that you guys are going to be able to handle it?" Right?

And then he then he asked this. He goes, "Listen, it's not only my life, but my family's life.

So it's my family's life is in your hands. Can I trust you?" It's like you see in these old movies where you you push the wall and it opens. Highly sophisticated. So he tells us, "Look, there's supposedly is there a big red desk in the apartment because there's these really sensitive documents. So, we're looking around for latches. We're pushing. We can't find [ __ ] And then one of our uh partners who's there, Jerry Salame, he comes and he picks the desk up and he just turns it over and it smashes on the marble floor and it breaks open. And in the back of the desk is a hidden compartment in a desk.

How do you do that with three uh three briefcases? Oh my god. And in these briefcases, check this out. This is staggering. Are all these super sensitive files, corruption related information, letters from the president's office, you know, about money that they had donated. And there was a list of, check this out, 2800 corrupt officials

just in those briefcases. 2800. 2,800. Yeah. Good luck finding the straight one. So, we find that that buys us a little more time. Then he tells us, look, he's in this secret compartment in the bathroom. He's hiding. He's in the bathroom.

He's there. So, he's been there for the last 12 hours. How was he telling you this on the phone?

Well, we were going outside, you know, making phone calls. He was at a pay phone.

Oh. And we were at another phone about 100 yards away and we didn't even know. We didn't know we were that close.

Oh my god. And then he would go back in and get more information to come out. As the head of security, he was able to get out and to relay, hey, I got to go check on my guys. They're telling me this. So it didn't cause a lot of attention. So finally there are like four bathrooms in the apartment and we're knocking on walls and we're thinking how the hell can there be a hidden compartment in the bathroom?

Yeah. So finally, you know, we take measurements of the apartments below and above. We get the thing. We're in the bathroom. We go, "This is smaller. This bathroom is smaller. This is the only one that doesn't make sense."

And we open the the sink cabinet and it hits the toilet. We're going days and days with our limited sleep.

Oh, yeah. We're We're exhausted. We're We're beyond exhaust at this point. We're not at our best. We're We're We're exhausted.

Chris and I, we're in the restroom and we just You know, you had the sink right here with the um door right under it

and it doesn't open all the way. It hits the toilet and we are so exhausted. We go, "Look at this. Who would make something like that?"

You're just of the construction. This is Kavetta. And then we saw a little yellow hose over there. This is it. And that's when we started getting drills.

So you start drilling into the walls and you break three drill bits. You run out of drill bits.

Corrupt captain that was supposed to been our leazison who was the main source for him. He grabbed me by the arm. This guy was literally in a panic and he goes, "Who's your source?

Who's your source? How do you know this? How do you know this? Who's your source?" none of your business, [ __ ]

I said I said there's a space not accounted for. And then once we started drilling through the walls, he looked at, you know, the their lawyers for the government and said, "The Americans are doing Yeah. prosecutors are doing unilateral action."

So that's when they detained us. Some say maybe arrested us, but they got everyone out of there and he escaped. They had drilled holes right next to him. He's imagine his experience in the wall.

He's just standing listening to you guys [ __ ] about the construction quality.

Oh, just wondering like the [ __ ] are they going to get? I mean, I can't imagine what his body was feeling like dodging

in there. And now drills are coming through. Yep. Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare. The prosecutor is getting this information that the Americans are conducting a unilateral operation. He comes in, shuts the entire operation down. We're within a minute

Oh, of accessing this compartment. This is no lie. I You couldn't have drawn it up any better in a movie script if you tried. We were literally a minute away from grabbing this guy. And the prosecutor came in. He shut it down. He brought us out to the living room, took the keys, locked the keys to the door, put them in his pocket, typed up a formal complaint against us, and then escorted us and made us leave the apartment.

Just full corruption. And we said, "Can we leave?" "No." I said, "So, we're arrested?"

"No, no, you're not arrested, so we're You just can't leave." "All right." Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. From episode 958 with Andy Rodic. Okay. So, but with your height, um, that has to be a part of your serve, right? Cuz the crazy part about your game was you had this insane serve.

Yeah. I like this detail of it. You had numerous different coaches over the years. And I do want to talk about that. I want to know how one

you're like, you got to break up with someone and hire someone. That's got to be a very stressful part of the experience.

But as you hired coaches, your whole game was on the table except for the serve.

The serve was to not be talked about. Is that right? It was to not be talked about. Um, it was Yeah, it was

proprietary. Were you afraid? Were you superstitious about the serve? No, I just knew it backwards.

You knew it backwards. I knew the cadence when it started. I knew the this little three count that I had. There was I knew the feelings of it. I knew what more than they did.

And I I don't say that lightly because we'll get to the coaches and I was obviously always in in in pursuit of something new, something different, something additive. And also don't talk about my serve

ever. Yes. Is Is the origin of it true that you got really frustrated at like 16 and you served in a weird way out of anger and it worked? Is that true?

Yes, that's true. I was playing um my friend Marty Fish who ended up being a really good player. Um he was six in the world. And so we we used to play this uh basically all the kids who didn't get um picked by the the federation, right? So the people not funded by US tennis anymore. Okay.

Kind of the throwaways. Yeah. Um, we played at Crystal Palms apartment complex in Florida.

Okay. Uh, and there were like six of us. And out of that group, a couple, you know, a couple of us made top top five, top six in the world, but I was playing against Marty who was really really good and at that point better.

Um, and just got pissed off and I had like this little half motion of tears, but it's not conventional,

right? Hit one irresponsibly out of anger. Yeah. And it went in, which by the way is the thing they tell you to never do in, right? Don't try to kill it. Don't try to crush it. Don't try And you did. You're like, I'm going to [ __ ] murder this ball cuz I hate it.

And that was it. Had I won that day, had I had I been playing, had I been doing well with Marty that day, I wouldn't I wouldn't be here having this conversation.

Crazy. And how do you like when you recognize it clicked, do you then think like, okay, how do I commit this whole thing to muscle memory? Like I got to

replicate. You just over and over again you do it or what? Just started doing it and it it was

and you didn't have to overthink it. It was immediately. Well, a lot of the muscles building like your shoulder still goes over. It's just your feet is was different, but it was like it there it was no time

and it literally took you it it went from and there were some other things that needed to be adjusted. But yeah, I mean you literally figured it out and then the year before you're 40 or 50 in the world in juniors which sounds good but that means you're going to college.

Yeah. And then 4 months later it was you were number one in Florida and signed a rebuck deal.

Okay. So this uh one thing I just want to end on with your serve which I find just so incredible. So you you had the record for the fastest serve in history at 155 mph.

It has been beaten, but it's still only at 156. Wow. That's so massive. Like the the serve is described in many of the things I was reading as unreturnable.

Well, to to most except for these the Avengers that came out career, but um yeah, I mean I I wasn't a natural tennis player. I was like a a work guy, but I could throw it. That was it.

Yeah. Yeah. Like I could make your life uncomfortable for a little bit. Okay. So, you you win um the 2003 US Open. Um you are

I'm dying to go to the US Open. No one will invite me. Let's do it. Okay. Whenever.

You just have to be a guest on this podcast and then Oh, great. Invite me and then let's

You have to You have to pay. You have to, you know, earn your way. You don't even You don't even have to do that. It's

very easy. I know why you want to go. I want to try the that honey juice. Yeah,

that's a cocktail. Yeah, it's they basically invented a signature cocktail like that everyone pretends like has been around for 100 years. Like a mint in like 8 years ago.

Have you had this at the US Open? Like no, cuz they didn't [ __ ] have when I was playing. It's a madeup thing.

What's in it? It's genius though. I don't know. I've never You got to buy it to find out. No. A little sham board, lemonade,

gray goose, and Sprite. Yeah, I want that. I'll make you one and serve it on the factory. us open and then also

she wants to overpay for it. That's right. You can't imagine how well you know her.

You literally know everything you need to know. It doesn't taste as good if you don't pay $28 for it.

And if it doesn't Yeah, that's really cool. My favorite thing about that is they have these cups with like, you know, they they have their the honeydeuce cups that have all the winners on them.

It's like, oh my god, I know, but I know I paid $30, but I got this souvenir cup.

I got a free cup. It's worth 75 cents. So, I won. Yeah, I want that. I want that. I'm gonna do that. I'm gonna do that.

I saved thousands by getting this. But also, the US Open's gotten so cool. Like,

everyone goes, it's definitely a social event. It's the Metball. It's the Metball of

It's really I do really, really want to go.

Questions about this episode

What is discussed in "Best of Wednesday 2025 | Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard"?

In order: 0:00 Scott Payne, Dak Shepard, Scott Andrew Callaway; 10:00 Sean Lennon, Bla1 Aguire, Robin Williams; 20:00 Mary Claire Haver; 30:00 Pakistan; 40:00 Amy Lynn Bradley, Chris Christie, Pakistan; 50:00 Amy Lynn Bradley; 1:00:00 Cali Cartel; 1:10:00 Cali Cartel, Marty Fish, US Open; 1:20:00 US Open.

What is mentioned in this Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard episode?

16 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including US Open, Scott Payne, Sean Lennon, Pakistan, Amy Lynn Bradley, Cali Cartel. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "Best of Wednesday 2025 | Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard"?

The episode runs 1 h 21 min; the transcript is about 16,556 words in 410 timestamped sections.

More from Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard

About this transcript: the episode's spoken words as captioned on YouTube, split into timestamped sections. Reclip.Me locates every person, work and idea in the text, keeps the time it is first named, and quotes the words around it verbatim. Last updated January 24, 2026.