Ellen Huet (on wellness cults) | Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard

What this episode is about

Ellen Huet, an investigative reporter, discusses her book "Empire of Orgasm: Sex, Power, and the Downfall of a Wellness Cult," which explores the complexities and controversies surrounding wellness cults. The conversation delves into the dynamics of power and sexuality within these groups, highlighting the intriguing yet troubling aspects of cult culture.

Key takeaways

• Ellen Hwitt's 'Empire of Orgasm' reveals how sex and power unravel a wellness cult's hidden agenda.
• Living with 20 adults might be a commune or a sitcom—both lose significance when the Wi-Fi password is a joke.
• Cooking for 20 transforms communal living into an ad for culinary endurance—who needs a gym membership?
• Cults are enticing, but communal living features the real drama: who burned dinner and what deserves 'Chef of the Year'?
• Clothing swaps: the eco-friendly cult alternative where fashion meets fraternity without the mind control.

Who speaks in this episode?

• Dax Shepard (Host) · 1 h 17 min speaking
• Ellen Huet (Guest) · 52 min speaking

What is discussed, and when

1. 0:00 – 15:00: Ellen Hwitt, Empire of Orgasm: Sex, Power, and the Downfall of a Wellness Cult
2. 15:00 – 30:00: One Taste, Nicole Dayon, Theranos, WeWork
3. 30:00 – 45:00: One Taste, Allstate, Nicole Dayon, Into It Turbo Tax
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00: One Taste, Nicole Dayon, Reese Jones, Gwyneth Paltrow
5. 1:00:00 – 1:15:00: One Taste, Reese Jones
6. 1:15:00 – 1:30:00: One Taste
7. 1:30:00 – 1:45:00: One Taste

Notable quotes from "Ellen Huet (on wellness cults) | Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard"

• >> today we have Ellen Hwitt, and she is an award-winning investigative reporter, and boy does she have a barn burner of an investigation that we're going to talk about. She's got a new.

  about Ellen Hwitt · at 0:06

• Fast growing companies that sometimes didn't pan out in the way that was expected. So, I spent a lot of the later 2010s covering We Work.

  about WeWork · at 20:11

• Is a company that was started in San Francisco in the mid200s by this woman, Nicole Dayon. and they sold courses on orgasmic meditation, which was like their central spiritual…

  about One Taste · at 28:36

• Checking All State First could save you hundreds on car insurance. That's smart.

  about Allstate · at 30:59

• >> Visit turboax.com to get matched with a Turboax full service expert today.

  about Into It Turbo Tax · at 32:27

• Someone who was like wait orgasmic meditation what is this? oh well, it's been featured. Nicole Dayon has appeared on the Goop podcast or she's spoken at a Goop conference.

  about Nicole Dayon · at 58:12

• Dating. he's interested in One Taste, he's interested in supporting it, and he ends up paying for business expenses and giving loans to the company.

  about Reese Jones · at 59:50

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

• Ellen Hwitt — Person · Main guest · 2 mentions · first at 0:06
  Interviewee and investigative reporter discussing her reporting on OneTaste and her book 'Empire of Orgasm'.
• Nicole Dayon — Person · Central subject (referenced figure / alleged cult leader) · 4 mentions · first at 28:05
  Founder and public face of OneTaste; discussed as the charismatic driver of the Orgasmic Meditation business and alleged exploitation dynamics.
• Reese Jones — Person · Referenced financier / investor · 2 mentions · first at 59:42
  Described as a Silicon Valley investor who financially supported OneTaste early on via loans/expenses while dating Nicole Dayon; discussed as part of alleged coercive/exploitative arrangements.
• Tim Ferriss — Person · Referenced influencer/endorser · 1 mention · first at 58:01
  Cited as an influential figure whose mention of OneTaste/OM (e.g., in 'The 4-Hour Body') helped mainstream awareness and credibility signals.
  >> And I don't necessarily blame them either. Tim's I think Tim wrote about One Taste in the 4-Hour Body, and so it was like a little bit more…
• Gwyneth Paltrow — Person · Referenced influencer/endorser · 1 mention · first at 58:15
  Mentioned as a high-profile figure whose Goop ecosystem (podcast/conference) provided mainstream exposure/legitimacy cues for OneTaste/Nicole Dayon.
  Someone who was like wait orgasmic meditation what is this? oh well, it's been featured. Nicole Dayon has appeared on the Goop podcast or she's spoken at a Goop conference.

Books & papers

• Empire of Orgasm: Sex, Power, and the Downfall of a Wellness Cult — Book · Primary recommendation · 1 mention · first at 0:22
  Ellen Hwitt's book investigating One Taste, providing deep insights into its operations and impact
  Book out now called Empire of Orgasm: Sex, Power, and the Downfall of a Wellness Cult. these cults are juicy.

Companies & orgs

• One Taste — Company · Business focus · 43 mentions · first at 26:55
  Central topic of discussion regarding its practices and controversies as a wellness cult
• WeWork — Company · Case study · 1 mention · first at 20:14
  Discussed in the context of Silicon Valley's investment culture and its parallels to One Taste
• Theranos — Company · Case study · 1 mention · first at 20:23
  Mentioned as a comparison to One Taste in terms of corporate fraud and cult-like behavior
  Fast growing companies that sometimes didn't pan out in the way that was expected. So, I spent a lot of the later 2010s covering We Work.

Sponsors

• Allstate — Product · Sponsor · 2 mentions · first at 30:56
  Mentioned as a sponsor of the podcast, promoting its car insurance services
• Into It Turbo Tax — Product · Sponsor · 1 mention · first at 31:25
  Mentioned as a sponsor of the podcast, promoting its tax preparation services

Full transcript with timestamps

0:00 Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert, experts on expert. I'm Dan Shepard and I'm joined by Modest Mouse. >> Hi. >> Uh, today we have Ellen Hwitt, and she is an award-winning investigative reporter, and boy does she have a barn burner of an investigation that we're going to talk about. She's got a new book out now called Empire of Orgasm: Sex, Power, and the Downfall of a Wellness Cult. You know, these cults are juicy juicy juicy. >> It's so juicy. You want to talk juicy?

0:28 Uh-oh. pun intended. >> Whoa. Better coming out of your mouth. Um, I feel like I should join a call. I'm so interested in them. I should at least do it for a couple months. >> Give it a little try. >> Like go live on, you know, some federal land or something. I know. I'd be a bad cult. >> So bad. >> Please enjoy Ellen Hwitt. He's an expert. He's an object.

1:05 >> Hi. >> Nice to meet you. >> Hi. >> Hi, Dax. >> I'm Ellen. I >> Oh, that's okay. No, you're good. And I love your shirt. Thank you. That's so sweet. I like bread. But I'm really >> Tell me more. The color, the texture, the cut, >> all of it, actually. Every single thing. But also, I'm really feeling red this season. >> Feeling red. >> How um high are you on the fashionist?

1:32 Uh what would you give yourself? >> I got this at a clothing swap. >> Okay, great. Okay. >> Oh, you're you look very stylish. Your pants are cute, too. >> Thank you. >> So, you got lucky. >> Yes. Yeah. >> Well, I have a good eye, but there was a period of time in my life when I shopped more and it took up not just money, but emotional and mental energy and I decided >> to like not do it anymore >> to liberate yourself from it.

1:52 >> Yeah. So, now it's like clothing swaps are a big But I also live with like a lot of people who like to host clothing swaps. So, I think unless you have that >> Yeah. Exactly. >> in your life, it's a little harder for that to be like where you get clothes. >> Are you currently still with 10 roommates or is that in the past? >> No, I I actually now live with 20. What? Oh, is it a >> explain explain this structure to us? I might be breaking the story about you, which would be fun. It'd be like a baton handoff.

2:21 >> We joke about um the Wi-Fi password at our current >> I call it a commune, but I'm mostly joking. It's communal living compound. >> The Wi-Fi password is not a cult. So, like we like we joke a lot about it. It definitely like doesn't qualify in a lot of ways. Um, for many years I lived in a group house with 10 roommates. That was like one house. >> Okay. >> And then I lived elsewhere for a bit and then I moved to a different like communal living compound where there are currently 20 adults including me and eight children under the age of four.

2:56 >> Oh my goodness. Yeah. >> So obviously it's co-ad. >> Yes. There's a lot of married couples. Mo most people are married. >> And is there bed uh hopping going on? I just don't know how you get that many people together and there's not bed. >> It's like a lot more um kind of like trying to fix the ailments of life when you have a young kid. And so imagine you put your We talk a lot about baby monitor distance.

3:18 >> Yeah. >> Put your kid to bed 7:30 or 8:00 p.m. and then you can come over and like >> Yeah. >> Yeah. It's a village with other people. We have dinner together six nights a week. >> A >> and each of us takes turns cooking. So you cook once or twice a month >> for 20 people. Well, that's a lot. >> Which has been fun. Like that's a new skill that I now have, which I didn't have before.

3:39 >> Wow. >> So, that's nice. >> Yeah. How big are the pots and pans in this house? >> Restaurant. Great. >> We have a pot we like to call mondo pot, which is literally this big >> and this tall. >> Mondo pot >> and like that's what you know, if you're making like a big soup. >> Now, listen, between the 20 of you, first of all, I don't know how that divides by seven, but let's forget about that. So, maybe you cook less than once a week.

4:01 >> It's a little more complicated than that. I had a hunch >> half well maybe like a third of the people have decided that they would rather pay into a chef than cook. Okay. >> And everyone's happy about that because some of those people if you're not enthusiastic about cooking you're probably not a good cook. >> That's where I was going with this. >> Exactly. >> So there's going to be nights where it's like a [ __ ] Devon's he's going to make that cowboy stew again.

4:23 >> You're totally right. It was like that for a long time and that's why they set up this system which was like a godsend. before I moved in, but I've been friends with these people for a long time. And so it used to be like, "Oh no, Phil's cooking." Like, "No one's happy about this. Phil's not happy." >> You almost wake up in a bad mood that day. It's Tuesday. Phil's cooking. >> Or you make other plans and then all of a sudden it's like, "No one's showing up for dinner." >> Can you order in on your own just like in your bedroom ever if you want?

4:48 >> Of course. Yeah. And then but then Yes. Then we found this wonderful woman named Julie and she comes and she cooks twice a week. >> And so either you can have a cooking shift or you pay into Julie. And how often are you in a pinch and you have to bring Julie in? What percent? >> Oh, no. We plan ahead. >> No, you personally. >> Oh, no, no, no. I love I love doing the cooking. It does. It's like takes up my evening, so it's like I tend to set aside 3 hours for it.

5:10 >> Yeah. It's Thanksgiving. You're >> making I usually make like a big soup or one thing that's on the stove. Maybe one thing that's in the stove. Salad >> and like maybe like rice or like roasted veggies or like >> Wow. Yeah, we eat a lot of tofu. You might not be surprised to hear that. >> Did you u did you take this structure from the Swedes or somebody or is this proprietary and you guys just worked it out over time? Cuz they do this in Sweden and in Norway.

5:41 >> They're like all over basically my friend Phil. >> The shitty cook. >> Yes. The shitty >> cook. Yeah. Yeah. Shitty chef. >> This is kind of his life's work is like trying to come up with concepts that allow people to live near their friends. >> Yeah. And with the idea that it makes life easier, happier, better in all the ways that you can imagine. >> So >> there are different versions of it. Like he encourages people, you know, obviously the most involved one which is hardest for people to do is like buying property together with your friends or you could like rent next to your friend or you could befriend your neighbor. It was started off as a hobby and then it has slowly become kind of like a thing for like him where this he's trying to like >> So the one that you're in now is not one

6:25 building. >> No, it is six buildings. >> Okay. >> And is Phil charismatic? Is he our Did we need to watch Phil? Is he the most charismatic of the group? This is a nod to the definition of what a cult is. >> His wife, who is one of my closest friends? I mean, I'm very close with Phil and Kristen, his wife. She is my friend who is the most like a cult leader. >> Wow. >> Okay, great. But we think she's benevolent. >> She's benevolent enough, I think, on the scale. But she is that person who is like kind of has a vision for like how people should do things and like can be kind of pushy and like has her >> she's extremely effective. She's like one of the most high functioning people I know.

7:02 >> Uhhuh. >> And she's tiny. That's what's funny. She's like >> they normally are. I know. >> Small and mighty. >> So she's the one to watch out for. >> Okay. I'll keep my eye on her. >> It's hard to not talk about this the whole time. I'm finding this fascinating. Maybe we will, you know, maybe we'll bounce back and forth cuz I'm going to be honest with you. I've thought about this. So we during co we kind of potted up with five families and kind of became what you're talking about which is like it was a reprieve for us parents cuz the kids would be distracted. Someone would host so we'd [ __ ] up someone's house and then they dealt with it and then you only got your house [ __ ] up once a week and yeah you

7:34 handled food. It was lovely. >> It was so fun. >> There wasn't enough bed hopping if I have a complaint. Yeah, there's no bed hopping. nearby >> here in this all within 10. Yeah. We never lived on the property but we would vacation all together. >> Vacations were kind of like really when we were doing that cuz like there were certain ones >> that were so perfect where it was like the pool was in the middle and then there was like do you remember this one?

7:58 And then there was like surrounding >> the Palm Springs one. Yeah. Had that. >> Yeah. Like individual room space. >> You want individual spaces with like a communal space that's at the center which I argue needs to have a kitchen. >> Yes. That's what this had. It was >> because that's where people come, you know, you come into graves, you snack, you talk to someone. To me, it's like you could have everything individual, >> but as long as you had a shared kitchen that is really like a primary kitchen for most of the people, it's going to feel like living together.

8:28 >> But you don't actually have to deal with >> sharing a bathroom, which can be harder for people. >> What happens if someone becomes annoying? >> Oh, which certainly happens. to happen >> or goes through stuff. We go through stuff. >> It can be hard. Like in my old house, actually, one of the hardest things that we dealt with was there was a moth infestation, clothes moth, >> and people had very different tolerances >> for a little bit of clothes moth >> and it caused a lot of pain. And some people were really feeling not heard.

9:03 Like >> if we were trying to say you we'd have house meetings and be like >> what should we do about the >> moths, >> you know? I would be so pissed if like you brought moths and then they ate all my clothes up. >> But how does one person bring moth? >> You bring in clothing with moth. It's they're very hard to get rid of. It's basically two kinds of people in the world. People who have dealt with a clothes moth problem and those who haven't. And blessed are the second >> category. I just discovered a moth hole in one of my items that I hadn't worn for three years. I thought I gave a character.

9:34 >> You could pay for that kind of distress. >> Well, then it's they're close to Kristen's closet. That's not fair to her. >> Yeah, but this is years ago. Let's not get too bogged down in there. >> The real path is wear your clothes often and you won't have a problem with it. But >> cuz it's like if you take them out, move them around, show them to the sun, >> they don't like Okay. I would imagine it's baked in that we have check-ins.

9:57 This it seems like it really needs check-ins. So, what's that schedule? There are a lot of houses like this in San Francisco and they're all kind of like in a network. So I have friends who have lived in other ones and people do house meeting every week. That's a lot. >> Okay, too much. >> At my current place, we have them roughly 6 weeks and we don't need that many and that's really nice. It's a sign of like high functioning phase of the group where we have had a lot of house meetings where >> it's really it's pretty simple. Two or three agenda items. Let's talk about should we move dinner time cuz the kids are getting older and they stay up later.

10:31 >> How should we handle like certain kinds of guests? Like we want to alert people more often about you know. >> Yeah, it does sound really fun. >> More of all >> and I don't think they're all super sexually charged and I think those ones that are probably don't last very long too. >> Now I want to hit you with this theory as someone who's now been studying uh a specific cult for seven years or eight years. Um, I have this theory and I say it with great respect to my many friends that are in Scientology.

10:59 Uh, I think the fact that Elron Hub didn't [ __ ] all the parishioners is very telling. >> Oh, >> I think there's something very interesting there cuz I we don't have an example where the cult leader doesn't [ __ ] everyone. You're totally right. It's really rare. It's true that most cults control their members sexuality in some way. Whether that's prescribed celibacy, prescribed um promiscuity, arranged marriages, whatever. You know, I've heard experts describe this as like just an effective tactic because if you manage to control someone's sex life, it's the most it's just this very intimate thing about them >> and can be manipulated and leveraged quite easily because it's also the source of shame and embarrassment, insecurity >> and and like can be used as leverage or

11:40 payment or whatever. um often like payment to the leader. Uh but >> that's a great point. I mean it's not like a musthave, but I do think it's a musth have. >> I'm super fascinated by cults and that's the only one I've ever been aware of where there they weren't [ __ ] everyone. >> Totally. He they weren't [ __ ] everyone, but he does use there's blackmail involved in in Scientology. So I think he knows about >> Let's be careful. There's alleged blackmail. There's I'm not kidding.

12:08 Yeah. >> Well, you just call it's also an alleged cult. I said I have an opinion and a theory. So when you say they do blackmail, that's liable. >> Okay. Well, they're probably going to be mad that we're calling it a cult in their defamation training. >> Yeah. I just want, you know, I'm not trying to I want you to make that point. I just want you to say, >> well, there's alleged blackmail that happens. Um, and is it sexual in nature?

12:33 >> I think whatever like whatever they can get on you can be used. So, I'm sure a lot of that is sexual. >> Yeah. The allegations I've heard is like you're doing these monitored sessions uh with the paddles and you're telling a lot of your history and that's being recorded. So then that the embarrassing aspects of that can be leveraged against you which of course would include sex a lot. >> Yeah, probably a lot of that if that happens >> if it happens if it's a cult. I mean we have to say that too. I bet on Wikipedia it doesn't say that.

13:04 >> Well, what's good is there's no defin you couldn't like prove or not prove a cult. Obviously, I've spent a lot of time thinking about how to be careful legally speaking. Um, >> and yeah, cult is like I think it can be maybe part of an argument legally speaking that there has been like malice or whatever like kind of hitting certain bars of defamation, but I don't think it's something that you can point to on its own and be like it's defamation.

13:28 >> Well, and I don't think there's just there's no there's no actual legal issue with being a cult leader. You can't be tried for being a cult leader. That's not in itself a crime. you'd have to do some other things. >> Yeah. I'm super fascinated by him. I'm also often in the position, as you probably are living in this communal situation, where you got to know what the difference is cuz I'm in AA. >> Yeah.

13:48 >> And I'll be the first to admit, we check a lot of boxes, man. We check a lot of [ __ ] boxes. But at the end of the day, there's no leader. >> Yes. And I feel like that must be the quintessential ingredient because somehow this AA thing has lasted for, you know, 80 years pretty successfully. >> Yeah. The main takeaway is like there's no yes or no cult or not. Like it's not a binary. It exists on a continuum spectrum. Yeah. >> And so charismatic leader is an important factor, but it's it can be part of a whole. Or you could imagine if something else checked all these other boxes and they happened to not have someone who fit that exact definition.

14:26 >> Yeah. >> You could still imagine it being pretty harmful. >> Yes. >> But it's all on a scale. And then I'll tell you my grossest deepest thoughts are when I'm trying to be I think I hope it's having integrity which is like I regularly am trying to make sure I'm not becoming a narcissist >> or goal. >> Good goal. >> Yeah. Good goal. Yeah. >> Yeah. Or cult leadery like because when you have an audience it's um I I think a lot of people have had an audience and not checked in with themselves and I've watched them all go down a kind of predictable. There's there's a great even podcast about kind of podcasters turn gurus which is like a wellworn path.

15:05 >> Yeah. >> I'm constantly thinking of like okay well how do we know we're not a narcissist? What what proof do we have in our defense? And then why why am I not a cult leader >> and making sure I don't ever >> try to become one cuz it's it's it's um tempting I think for people. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. One of the like hot tips to avoid being in too um too extractive of a cult is to try to join more than one >> and see how they feel.

15:30 >> Yeah. You know, if you're worried like group A in my life >> is taking too much control. I'm concerned about it. >> Try to join another that is maybe equally like demanding of your time. And if that's an okay coexistence, >> that's actually probably a sign that >> it's not >> you're okay. Or maybe you're like not in so much of a danger zone. So we should let people join another. Yeah, >> we encourage people to listen to revisionist history all the time.

15:54 >> Yeah, only that one though. >> Well, no. And Elizabeth and Andy. >> Oh, and and nobody's listening, right? Yeah, we have like a handful allow, >> but it's >> Yeah, exactly. There's a list on the website >> like when there's the biker club meet up. These are the groups that can all coexist without Okay, so um you're from Fremont and you went to Stamford. >> That's right.

16:14 >> You don't sound very financially motivated. Is that >> Is that cuz I'm a journalist? >> A journal. Like when you think go to Stanford, you're like, "Oh, great. That's turn key to 800,000 a year or whatever the you know, a lot of people that go to Stanford are definitely financially motivated." >> That's seems fair. >> Okay. So, and then now I find this communal living thing. So, tell me about your relationship with Well, a how do we major in English and polyai and and also what's just your disposition about this stuff >> about making money?

16:42 >> Yeah, you feel unique especially in Silicon Valley. When I was at Stanford, >> yeah, I took English classes. Um, I was really involved in the school newspaper, did all the things that you might expect of a like overachieving lettersoriented verbal derbal. And the year that I graduated, a lot of the people who were really looking to get involved in Silicon Valley were still going to like Google was like working at Google was still kind of a hot job. Now I gather it's like you want to be a founder or bust, right? And people are like the best thing you can say is that I dropped out of Stanford to like start a company or something. I mean I didn't take a CS class until my last year at Stanford and it was actually really fun and my one of my only regrets is that maybe I should have like done that sooner but just cuz it was like intellectually stimulating in a new way.

17:31 >> So is this fair to say you fell in love with writing at the paper at Stanford? You were the editor as well? I no I was like a managing editor but I definitely college was the first place where I remember >> writing a story that I felt >> mattered that was like a news story that had to do with like don't ask don't tell or something that was like controversial and I was I was really motivated by that and that was probably the first time I got the news bug >> and then yeah I really wanted to be a journalist.

17:57 >> You went straight to San Francisco Chronicle. Yeah, >> I almost took another job in marketing and I went to that job interview and I was like, "This sucks. I don't want to do this." And I called the newspaper who I had applied to and they had not gotten back to me. I called them. I was like, "Please, please, please hire me. Please hire me." And they said, "Yes." And then I did um a tour of a few years of you know working at the paper and basically working as a general assignment breaking news crime reporter which means crime, fires, animal stories, um traffic, random things, um shootings, homicides, >> cornobia, fun San Francisco offerings.

18:34 >> And you learn a lot about the city. You learn how to call up people who are in a really tough situation. Like maybe their child has just died or someone they know has killed somebody. >> You call them and you're like hi. >> Yeah. What year was this? >> This would have been 2011 to 2014, something like that. I think saying I'm a reporter is a tough line. >> It is hard but you got to do it. >> You got to do it. Although it's also exciting, I think for people to be approached by a reporter is like, "My life just got newsworthy." >> Yeah.

19:09 >> In a in an interesting way. >> You know, if someone says no, I'm like, "Great. I won't call you again. >> [ __ ] you." And I hang up >> 100%. And that has happened. And every once in a while, you'll call someone and they're like, "I'm so glad you called. I'd really like to tell you about my brother. I really want to, you know, I really want to explain to you what he was like. He's not just >> this, you know, news incident that just defined him. he has his whole backtory or you know I remember experiences like that. So I never >> feel bad about asking the first time.

19:37 >> And do you feel lucky about the time frame in which you started this job because I feel like San Francisco that's a very ripe time to be starting to >> I mean the 2010s in San Francisco and I did eventually migrate to covering business and startups and like the 2010s were an amazing time to be doing that frankly a pretty unhinged time business. Well, it's like the venture capital boom was funding tech companies. It was like Facebook, Google, all these companies were shooting to the moon. And then you had all this money flowing into venture capital, which then paid for extremely fast growing companies that sometimes didn't pan out in the way that was expected. So, I spent a lot of the later 2010s covering We Work.

20:20 >> Oh, yeah. Theronos. Theronos is a great example. >> You have a great podcast called Founding. >> That's right. Yeah. uh that was won some awards and it was all about the wei work. So people like seven part narrative series about Adam Newman and we we work. >> Yeah. What could be juicier because the I don't know what the ratio is but a very accepted riskreward proposition in Silicon Valley is like they know they're going to bet on a 100 companies. They know 84 of them are going to go bust, but they know the 16 are going to 100x >> and it's a winning strategy. So that's such a novel approach to investing that I I can't imagine predated Silicon Valley. Like that's such a new way.

20:59 >> The ability to have 100x thousandx returns is very much a software era type thing. So there's a reason that people talk about oh B2B SAS companies like the joke is that they're kind of boring, but the truth is they print money because they just they're not shipping product. They're not, you know, their main expenses are employees and they can sell >> intellectual property without software. Yeah. >> Yeah. Without a physical manufacturing. >> When you think about the ability to have those types of returns, it's a reflection of the technology that's become available.

21:32 >> Yes. There's so many like um clickworthy like they dumped 600 million into this and it failed. They did this. They and then then the winds are so spectacular. Just like all headline >> fodder. One of the stories that even though it's not like a big story, it's one of the ones I remain more known for is Juicero. Did you guys are you familiar with Juicero? >> I'll try to keep it short, but it was this highly engineered juice press that was connected to the internet. It cost first something like $700 and then the price was lower to 400. It was this beautiful gleaming machine, beautifully engineered machine. And the idea was you buy this juicer and you can get cold pressed juice at home and it presses, you know, the advertisement said things like it presses with enough force to lift two Teslas and like >> I love that they put in their

22:20 vernacular, too. Not two GMC trucks. I'm >> surprised Kristen didn't have this. >> We probably have somewhere in the basement. Yeah, sure. >> And the only way that you could get the juice was by buying the machine and then ordering on demand these packets of freshly cut fruits and vegetables that you would then put in the machine. The machine would squeeze it and cold pressed juice would come out. Oh, >> but my colleague and I got a tip that you could just squeeze the packets by hand and get the juice out and you did not need this >> $400/ at$1.700 machine.

22:50 >> And so we did a story and like investigated and literally squeezed bags of juice at the office and made a little video of it and and and this this company had raised over hund00 million from some of the best VCs in Silicon Valley. This was 2017, something like that. And yeah, our story was actually you don't need the machine, you can squeeze it by hand. And it's very rare that you write a story where you can actually summarize the whole thing in one sentence. >> Yeah. Yeah.

23:14 >> And I think it came out at a time when people were really interested in just having a little bit of shot in Frea >> towards some of these >> really overhyped companies. >> Yeah. They somehow have this weird parallel of like frivolous lawsuits. There's like we smell fraud, right? There's something that we all just intuitively go, well, I don't know. How could that thing be worth 200 million? They haven't sold anything or it's not profitable.

23:37 >> But then then then the 10th one hits. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. What a wild bizarre period of time. >> Feel any guilt a little bit. >> Yeah. Is that you just like down a whole company? >> I don't feel great about I mean it's it's not that's not what I wake up in the morning thinking that, you know, but and at the same time kind of like the public should know. >> Yeah. >> They should know you're the fourth estate. Now, did you ever meet a founder who you realized the thing was [ __ ] but you recognize that they sincerely did believe it? Like, I feel like that's what would make it harder for me to take one down is like when they they actually did believe.

24:13 >> Everyone believes, >> you know, it's very rare to meet a founder who would be willing to show or admit to you, even in private, that they're like, I know my >> Well, the Theronos Gal, she knew that thing didn't work. like they were using other machines to do it. >> And my guess is inside her head, obviously I've never been inside her head, but my guess is that inside her head, she was thinking, "We're so close to it working." >> Exactly.

24:42 >> Once I get this other thing >> going, it's going to be fine. >> Yeah. >> If we're defrauding someone >> or if we're fibbing a little bit in the demo, it's in service of the mission. >> Yes. which is that eventually we will have a blood machine that is going to fit in your pocket as yes work as as well as the others. >> Yeah, most people aren't monsters. They you justify you figure out ways and psychologically I definitely think she had to think >> I have filed her into my like >> evil so few that who I mean >> there's something well I don't want to say evil cuz I don't believe in evil.

25:17 >> Exactly. Yeah. >> I I'm with you. I think she's rationalizing every step of the way or someone in her shoes is >> you don't wake up and you're like can't wait to lie today. >> I think I observe the performative nature of her to be a little sociopathic personally when I watch the videos I'm like oh this person's nuts like they're they could be saying yeah >> I know but >> the delivery the packaging to me I'm sure she's just as earnest as all the others.

25:45 >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean she's copying a lot of other people who also did Steve Jobs who >> goods. >> I know. But she must she I don't know. Okay. >> It's just it's tricky. It's tricky. I think taking down like we're all happy that she got caught. >> Yeah. >> And yet I still am like ooh that's still a person. >> She doesn't feel I Yeah. I don't know why I'm not sympathetic towards her.

26:09 Maybe I need to try. I need to figure out how I can love her. Um >> but you make your way to Forbes. Yeah. >> You make your way to Forbes and then you um make your way to Bloomberg. >> That's right. >> And then you get uh I guess you get pitched. So explain how um when you're a journalist and you're working at Bloomberg, you get pitched story ideas by who? The people, everyone. >> Well, yeah. The way it works is, you know, every morning a journalist wakes up and their email inbox has, >> you know, dozens of pitches from, you know, there's a whole industry PR professionals who send out emails being like, "Our company's doing this cool cool new technology. We're going to launch in a month." >> They're hoping you can lift the overall.

26:50 >> They're hoping that you'll write a story about them, >> which is how Oneouch actually does get its first lift is the New York sorry, one taste. >> Common mistake. >> Yeah. >> But it could go either way. It's bad branding cuz it's just it's clitorals touching. >> Yeah. And you're touching with one finger. But one taste has a Buddhist origin. So that's part of why they picked it. Yeah. Just as the ocean has one taste, the taste of salt.

27:11 >> Oh. >> So too does the truth have one taste. The taste of liberation. >> Liberation. >> Hence one taste. >> Yeah. Okay. Anyway. Okay. Yeah. Every morning, you know, you wake up, there's a bunch of pitches in your inbox, and they could be about anything. So in this case, part of why I paid attention to this pitch is I had actually interacted with that um PR professional before on a different story. She like works for different clients.

27:34 >> So she was like, "Hey, just take a look at this. It's about company called One Taste and they teach a practice called Orgasmic Meditation >> and look, it's a fast growing woman-ledd wellness startup and you cover startups. They're based in San Francisco. Maybe you'd be interested in writing about them." >> That's very colorful. >> Yes. >> Yeah. certainly catches the attention and I had heard about orgasmic meditation before. I had read a piece about them a few years earlier. So I was familiar and I remembered, oh yeah, those are the 15-minute clitoris stroking people.

28:04 >> So I had read a different story about one taste and the founder Nicole Dayon and I was like, "Okay, sure. I'll come in and we'll have a meeting." And it was easy cuz you know it's in San Francisco. So, I just headed over to their office and met with the current leadership of One Taste, which did did not include Nicole, who is the founder, cuz she had recently sold her shares and stepped down, but she was still like involved as the visionary of this company. And so, I went in, I got kind of the basic pitch.

28:33 For those who aren't familiar, One Taste is a company that was started in San Francisco in the mid200s by this woman, Nicole Dayon. and they sold courses on orgasmic meditation, which was like their central spiritual and sexual wellness practice. Orgasmic meditation is a 15-minute partnered clitoreral stroking meditative practice in which a stroker, usually a man, puts on a glove and some lube on his left index finger. >> His right thumb is on her paranium. So, so he's okay. He >> It's kind of like this motion. Not to get too graphic, he strokes her clitoris for 15 minutes in a very prescribed manner.

29:11 >> Rising, falling, rising, falling. We're not trying to reach what we think of as orgasm. Yeah. >> Exactly. They they would call it climax and they kind of >> look down their noses at it a little bit. It's a secondary. >> Don't be gross. You guys are [ __ ] being immature. It's not about climax. >> It's more about the journey of arousal. Don't try to like get to any place in particular. Okay. >> And so during those 15 minutes, the only goal is for both parties to focus on the sensations in their bodies in sort of a meditative way. If you've ever done sitting meditations, very similar.

29:37 You're just noticing >> like body scan. >> And what is also unique is that participants who are observing are also encouraged to tell whatever sensations are coming up in them as they observe. So that's the communal >> public demo. So you could do orgasmic meditation on your own, just the two people, or there were sometimes these demos in which you might do it in front of an audience, maybe for a course in which you're explaining what orgasmic investors >> or investors.

30:06 >> Investors for what? There's no like there's no mechan machine. >> Well, they're selling courses. That's the business. Selling the gloves. Do the gloves. >> They did sell branded one taste lube. Oh, >> that was kind of a like side merch. >> Sure. >> Yeah, >> you got to. It's sitting right there. You'd be a fool not to. >> Oh, no. >> That's what model they're in, which is the EST model and we'll go how they she inherited this stuff.

30:35 >> Totally. So, any any group that's selling kind of um personal development, personal transformation, landmark, which is a Tony Robbins, Tony Robbins. Exactly. >> Actor's way I think also maybe is >> it a Okay. Allegedly. allegedly. >> Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare. We are supported by All State. Checking All State First could save you hundreds on car insurance. That's smart. Not checking which platform you watch that new show on. So frustrating. 15 minutes later, you've logged into seven apps, reset two passwords, and still haven't found it. Yeah, checking first is smart. So check All State first for a quote that could save you hundreds.

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32:45 >> Anyway, orgasmic meditation they call it OM or M for short. And so like in an M session um the only goal is to feel you know feel the sensations in your body and there is no expectation of reciprocation. So this is the other important thing is that the woman receives this sexual touch and it's all just for her to receive. She doesn't owe the stroker anything afterward. It is not meant to be foreplay. It is not meant to be considered sex. >> Even though it's I think quite obviously general touching, so it's quite sexual, but they would argue that it's a meditative practice, not sex.

33:18 >> Great. >> The idea is that if you do this practice regularly, both men and women benefit >> from better sex, better relationships, a better connection to your intuition. Yes. better intimacy >> even though it's not supposed to be intimate. It's like, >> yeah, they would define intimacy >> broadly, but you know, it helps you get in touch with your desire and your body. >> And I want to say right so far, I'm in.

33:39 That's great. People want to lay there and do that. Wonderful. I like the dynamic that the man's pretty much just giving and not receiving. Like all this is I'm I'm I'm in so far. And the people participating love it. >> Also, there's something very radical about it. It's like oh radically focused on female pleasure which tends to be ignored or shunted aside. >> So it has yes the first appearance of being quite matriarchal and empowering for women%.

34:07 >> Now did they offer you when you were doing your first chat with them? Were they did they offer like would you like to receive it to experience it so you know what you're writing about? >> No. >> Are you sad? >> I'm not I'm not sad about that. I'm not sad about that. I think it's better that I >> keep my distance, keep my objective journalistic distance from doing any sort of practice. >> Maybe I'm just a perve. I'm like I would be interested if I was >> then you couldn't do the journal. You couldn't do it with journalistic integrity >> cuz what if you started loving it?

34:38 >> But are you not intrigued at all by this? >> I'm not weirdly right. >> Like I I mean I understand why it would be intriguing to some people. Yeah. >> Um I personally don't find it >> I think if your sexuality up until that point had been pitched to you and you found that society it seemed like you were just in the the the the position of providing service to men so they got what they wanted and then this totally 180 paradigm hits you. It's like oh no no girl this is just about you. That seems >> Yeah. But then you just >> I mean that's why it was successful I guess.

35:14 >> Well there's a few things. First, I think there is something special about when it happens between two people as opposed to like touching yourself. So, that was kind of >> part of it is it can foster this sense of intimacy and connection between two people. It's just like kind of this richer slightly more spiritual experience. And then, >> you know, there's research suggests that something like 10 to 15% of American women struggle to have an orgasm.

35:36 >> So, if you happen to be in that category, I think you hear this pitch and you think, "Wow, this could teach me something new. this thing everyone's talking about. My friends tell me about I've been robbed of it. >> Maybe it'll open me up. And for men who struggle with performance anxiety and sex, I think the goallessness of >> an M session is really appealing for people who are in marriages where they've been struggling to connect sexually. Um it it offered something that was appealing to a lot of people and in particular something that people want but have a hard time finding where to look for help. And I have had the benefit of not just reading the description in your book, but getting to watch in the dock that was on Netflix that you participated in. What was it called?

36:20 >> Uh, Orgasm Inc. >> Orgasm Inc. What is undeniable immediately is the women are all in general pretty young and attractive. And the men are admittedly uh tech nerds who can't be with girls. Almost everyone they interview cops to that almost immediately. They learned about this and they just thought, "Wow, >> I could participate in some sex. That would be better than none." >> Yeah. >> So, there's this really weird asymmetry between who's there. It's like a lot of tech nerd guys. I've gone back and forth on this because it is true of some people that there was that dynamic of men who were struggling to connect with women and women who were like younger and had sort of sexual appeal and that was part of what they were able to offer but they might have other reasons that

37:09 they were attracted to one taste. But I hesitate to make that a broad okay characterization. In general I would say >> there were a mix of people. Sometimes it was men who were struggling to connect with women and that was why they wanted to join one taste. There were also some younger hotter men who were brought in and who have talked to me about feeling like they were used we can you know this might come up later but feeling like they were used as >> sexual objects themselves and maybe you know some of them have described to me being instructed to m with older women who had access to money in the hopes that those women would then buy more courses. So it wasn't all just like >> women were getting used and men were getting there. There was a mix.

37:53 >> Yeah. And that's where we get into Nicole's exploiting of this whole dynamic which is she is does end up using these attractive young women to uh appeal to the investors >> and then people who are going to spend 50 grand to watch a demo like >> also remember we had an armchair anonymous. That's right. >> Okay. Yeah. That's and he he was not a tech broan. And he's an example of someone who um you know he's in the book, he's in the documentary. He's like >> he was in his early 20s, he's young, he's attractive, and like he was kind of a like wanted to have an adventure.

38:32 >> Yeah. and joined One Taste. And you know, he has spoken about being asked by the leaders of One Taste to go and with a woman who had access to money in the hopes that that would then kind of prime her to receive a sales call and say yes to some large part, >> take some courses. >> Yeah. So, he has talked about that. In keeping with you um taking that first meeting, you then and go and as a a good journalist doing your due diligence, you decide, well, I should talk to some ex members and some ex employees.

39:04 >> Yeah. >> And so when does it turn from you think you might be writing this kind of juicy sexy story of a startup and then you're like, "Oh no, there's a lot more going on here." >> I mean, it happened pretty quickly. So I had that first meeting with One Taste Leadership and you know, they made the basic pitch to me. They were like, "We're the whole foods of sexuality. were the organic good for you version of sexuality. They were very much like our practice is >> wholesome and helps heal people.

39:29 >> Did you have any spidey senses going off during that first thing? >> Not a ton. >> You were like okay. >> I was like okay this is an I mean there's so much to be intrigued about. You're like how does it work? >> Yeah, absolutely. >> What are the benefits? But yes, you're right. Then I started asking around a little on my own, finding people who had been involved in one taste and started to hear from people who were former customers, former members that they felt like they'd been exploited by this company. Um, some people spoke about feeling like they had been exploited financially. So pressured to they said that they had been pressured to take on debt in order to buy expensive courses, which could cost upwards of 30 grand um for like an intensive course. And then some of them talked about feeling like

40:10 they had been exploited sexually. Um feeling like they had been taught or you know pressured to have sex with potential customers >> um in order to have those customers buy courses and support the company financially. Um and it's it's this subtle >> it's not black and white. It's like for a lot of those people, they also felt like they had learned things of value during their time at one taster or that it had been this like >> interesting, helpful, sometimes even healing experience and at the same time simultaneously harmful. That was kind of the >> intriguing part of it.

40:43 >> That's how all of them are. There's always something. >> Yeah. They wouldn't grow and expand if they weren't appealing and fun. >> Yeah. If it was just bad, it wouldn't be >> first three months with the Bwan up in Oregon. It looks [ __ ] great. The Rajnishis are party. A lot of cults are fun. >> You join a cult and it feels like you've discovered a special purpose. You've you're part of this special group that has a special knowledge about like they're your new mission in life. You're going to change the world. You have these cool new friends. Everyone's really excited.

41:10 >> You've unbridled yourself from society in essence. You've declared I'm I'm going to try a different approach to this. So you feel ex you probably your ego is also stroked by >> Yeah, I think that's how conspiracy theories work too. same situation where it's like, oh, we're in this special group that knows something most people don't. >> Yes. >> Now, I want to say you do end you write a piece in 2018. This becomes a humongous kind of viral thing that really shakes the foundation of this place.

41:40 >> Totally. >> But now I want to let's talk about Nicole and where she comes from because she's a fascinating charact. She's hyper intelligent. >> Totally. >> Yeah. She's like attractive, hyper intelligent, seemingly fearless, confident charismatic >> one might say. >> Yes. >> Um Nicole is the main character of One Taste of like this company of everything that it stands for. She is the creator, the visionary, the founder. There was technically another co-founder, but let's be real, like Nicole is the main person. And she is a fascinating and complicated person. She grew up in the Bay Area. Currently, she's in her late 50s. I think that she was growing up in the 70s. Um, and she had a really difficult childhood, which is something that we get into in the

42:27 book. Um, where her father was a convicted child sex abuser. >> Yeah. >> Single mom from Michigan. Single mom in and out. >> Yes. She had she was raised by a single mom. Also, maybe her grandmother was in the picture, but in her own retelling slash, as much as I've been able to corroborate with other people who knew her, um, she really loved her dad, even though he was this somewhat absent figure in her life. He had other families, other many other children, um, several other wives, not at the same time, but, you know, he had a an itinerant life elsewhere. And she adored him. And according to court records and according to her own retelling, he was a convicted child sex abuser. you know, he went to jail for this at least once when she was younger and then again when she was in her 20s and in that case he was arrested and charged and then died

43:19 pretty soon after. So there was never like a conviction for the second one, but one of the alleged victims in that case was like his granddaughter. >> Not hard to extrapolate that she might have been a victim. What's complicated is over the years she has spoken about her father's sex abuse history, but she has often sidestepped the question of whether he ever abused her. And I wanted to treat this subject really carefully and sensitively in the book. Um, but I did find people who knew her when she was in her 20s and around that time who told me that she told them that he had sexually abused her.

43:59 >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> And she does have a piece of writing that was once public and is not anymore in which not only does she kind of allude to this, but she actually spins it in this very >> complex way where she suggests that she perhaps initiated it or was, >> you know, and keep in mind that >> what is being discussed here is a scenario in which she would have been like under 10. >> Yeah. Yeah. and her public addressing of it evolves and I want to save to the end as it's unraveling where she ultimately goes with it which like I couldn't [ __ ] believe what was coming out of her mouth.

44:37 >> Yeah. >> Um >> okay so she's a competitive uh little girl. She's a spelling bee person or at least according to her. She's very bright. >> Yeah. She's like an intense person and I think that has been clear. you know, anyone who knew her knew that she had this and she also, I think, liked to play that up in her own retelling of her biography that she was someone who was like inspired by intensity and edges and that kind of thing, >> right? So, she goes to Temple but just for a year uh then come Temple University.

45:09 >> I didn't know you meant the temple. >> Oh, sure. Could have easily. We are talking about spirituality and ohms. But she returns to San Francisco after a year. Yeah. >> And now she finds herself in some kind of communal living situations. She also loves meth and she loves psychedelics. >> So she's a psychonaut. >> Her 20s are a string of what I would describe as intense experiences. According to people who knew her, that involves meth use, copious amounts of LSD, um sex work. She has talked about being um an escort uh a stripper and she also ran an art gallery. So I mean some of that was a little bit more pedestrian but she has described this era of her life and other people who knew her have corroborated this that it was yeah quite extreme. She wasn't really living like the normal path of like getting a job.

45:58 And she allegedly spent 3 years or so living in what she later refers to as an acid house. A house with a bunch of other women in San Francisco where they did tons of acid. Yes. >> I mean, this is all >> a mix of her retelling, and she is someone who is very good at telling stories about her life in a way that supports >> a point that she's trying to make at the time. >> One thing I'll applaud her for is she doesn't really ever take kind of a victim narrative, which of course is a tenant of this. Um, but there's no sense that at any point she was a victim in any of these scenarios.

46:31 >> But she meets a dude, Irwin, at a party. >> Yes. And this guy kind of hits her with this notion of what's it called then? >> They call it deliberate orgasm. >> Deliberate orgasm. >> So the way she tells the story is that she went to a party and she met a guy who is sometimes described as a Buddhist monk. Erwan had lived at an ashram for some point. I don't know if he considered himself a monk, but whatever. >> He's in his 20s, good-looking, a little younger than her.

46:55 >> His name is Arowan. >> Yeah. Not >> I thought it was Irwin. >> Not Not Awan like grocery stores spelled E R W. >> Oh, okay. I got it. >> But he, you know, in this in the retellings, he supposedly comes up to her at this party and says, "I'd like to introduce you to a sexuality practice." And she's like, "What?" And he's like, "I'd like to introduce you to a sexuality practice." >> And she says, "Yes." And I don't think they do it right then and there. I I believe they met up later. He shows her this meditative clitoreral stroking practice. And he talks about how like I'm going to here's what's going to happen. I'm going to stay clothed.

47:30 You're going to remove your clothing from the waist down. It's 15 minutes as well right? >> 15 minutes probably. Um, they like to use the word [ __ ] So, I'm going to use it within one taste for a period of time. They preferred to use the terms [ __ ] and [ __ ] to describe female and male genitalia in part because it had charge to it because it was this provocative word. >> But again, I'm so confused by this because it's like it's supposed to be >> a program, Monica. Jesus.

47:58 >> It's supposed to be not you're not supposed to climax. It's supposed to be just meditative and then it's also like the most sexually charged thing possible. >> I would say the way to think about it is what One Taste was eventually selling was you know these horses on orgasmic meditation which is a pretty fringe and provocative idea right like most people are not going to be like great sign me up you might need a little convincing. So in order to do so they did try to make it quite safe seeming clinical.

48:26 That's why it's like the 15 minutes the prescribed >> script the like all these safe >> and they don't want you to not climax. They just are saying it's much more it's bigger than just the climax. >> They're like climax like sure >> but there's more. >> It's just very the juxiposition of like >> but then when you get deeper inside that's where some of the stranger >> things come up. So, if you're sensing a discordance, you're like, it doesn't line up, >> it's probably because the outer pitch was a little bit more buttoned up or as buttoned up as you could make >> literal stroking, >> right? And then for those who became more deeply involved like they worked

49:04 for the company, they lived in a communal residence with other one taste people, they made this company and this lifestyle their whole life. Then that's where you get into some of the there are layers unsurprisingly. >> Okay. So she has this experience, she describes it as quite transcendent and for her it's the highest level of intimacy she's ever experienced. So she's converted >> as she tells it. It's a pivotal moment in her life. She experiences this thing.

49:35 She even likes to say that she was about to join a Buddhist monastery and then throughout that plan and was like, "This is supposed to be your wild week." >> Yes. >> Just kidding. I'm going to >> pursue this meditative cliteral stroking practice. And now this guy Awan, he is working under another guy who has broken off from yet another organization that started much earlier in the 70s or >> Yeah, it's a little complicated, but essentially the origins of this what becomes orgasmic meditation was these two other groups that had a relation to each other. One was a spin-off of the other and they taught a practice called deliberate orgasm.

50:10 >> Yeah. >> And both of those groups were >> less businessoriented than one taste. They were a little bit more like insular and they were both run by men and deliberate orgasm was like a little bit more freewheeling like it wasn't 15 minutes. It didn't have as many guard rails. So Nicole ends up going with Awan to like become part of one of these groups. And what essentially happens is she learns how to run a community like this and she learns the basics of this practice. And after that she's there for a couple years and after that she decides I want to do this on my own.

50:49 >> It has the same trajectory as like some of the um Christianity movements in the country where it's like they just keeps being these schisms that break off into their own and they all need a little bit of a proprietary approach to justify why they're a different thing but it's all pretty much the same. I mean what's interesting is yeah they all share this lineage and if you want to trace it far enough back there's even many shared lineages back to like EST and what is now Landmark Forum and there's probably a connection to Nexium and there's you know it's like this >> tree essentially of personal development personal transformation groups they often have a tie to each other >> so if you wanted to like map out that genealogy >> idea you have in there you have all these it's a perfect area to be in

51:32 >> yeah and and you'll see that certain idea ideas that were popular at one taste show up in some of these other groups as well. >> Be you know for example like taking 100% responsibility for your experience like I have friends who have taken leadership seminars where that is a big tenant >> and there's actually a lot of value to that idea and it can be taken too far and used to >> like gaslight people into thinking that everything that happens to them is >> it's impossible to be a victim. Exactly.

52:00 >> Yeah. Someone jumps out of an alley. >> The victim narrative is like a really central part of understanding this and you know what you said earlier about Nicole never seeming like a victim like we can come back to it but that is a key thing because it is both empowering and it can be used to convince people that well if they're feeling harmed or if they're feeling like someone has been hurting them that's their problem. >> Yeah. Yeah. And if you couldn't, you know, to be a victim is to have such a small-minded mentality or it's only for the weak-minded to think of themselves as the victim. And that can be really convenient. You know, if there's no victims, then there's no perpetrator.

52:38 So, oh, how nice. Exactly. >> It's a nice clean setup. >> Mhm. >> Just though, I think it's interesting to say that more the Moore house, there were a hundred more houses at one point. A lot of these have really successful. I just watched the Cinon talk about a little bit in the book, but I watched that doc and I was like, it's crazy how big was huge. Yeah. >> Yeah. And they're all kind of borrowing from each other. They all kind of a little bit laced with some Buddhism.

53:01 >> Yeah. Morehouse, you know, we won't spend too much on it, but basically, yeah, they had this like network of houses across the US that were all painted purple and they all had this like philosophy about living with like more pleasure, more fun. And >> was that a different one or is that connected to this? >> That's one of the two groups that taught deliberate orgasm. >> That's where the the orgasm kind of started. Every once in a while when you mention that there's someone who's like, "Oh, I know someone who lived in a one of those purple houses or I know like they're sometimes called the purple people." >> Oh, >> yeah. Okay. So, she breaks out on her own, she's having kind of middling success. She gets a warehouse in San Francisco and invites people to live in

53:37 it. >> Yes. So, when she starts One Taste, they start off by having like a center in San Francisco where they have like a yoga studio and they start offering classes. And this is in 2004 or so. And pretty quickly within a couple years, they also rent a warehouse down the street. And that becomes the first communal residence of One Taste participants. And >> that starts like a whole history of like One Taste people living together >> and having that be kind of like the inner experience, the kind of the kind of like once you get more involved Yeah.

54:13 >> and you join, you might >> then you're living it. >> Yeah. So, for a lot of people who get involved in one taste, you might join and just take a few classes and be like, great, I learned what I needed. >> Uhhuh. >> See you later. >> Yeah. >> And then there's other people who join and then they're like, I want more. I want to be more immersed in this world. And the path that a lot of those people end up following is they would quit their old job and start to work at One Taste, usually on their sales team, selling courses to other people. They would move out of their old home and move into one of the one taste communal residences and they would gradually stop spending as much time with their friends and family who didn't understand their orgasmic life.

54:54 >> Yeah. >> And start spending all their time Yeah. start spending all their time with people at one taste. And that is kind of >> how it can advance for certain people. >> Okay. So it takes off. um she decides to start franchising and selling more and more and it starts growing into a pretty good size. >> Yeah, they have offices not just you know they start in San Francisco but they end up with offices in LA, San Diego, Austin, Boulder, New York, London Australia.

55:22 >> Here's a tough question. How how much do you think the news and media h bears some responsibility? Cuz this was like a fledgling nothing. She does a demo in 2008 and the New York Times reports on it. Yeah. >> And that's when the explosion happens. So it's like h how much responsibility should news and media take for like kind of promoting these terrible ideas? Where's the integrity there? >> It's a little complicated. >> Yeah.

55:50 >> Some of the more egregious things that happened at one taste happened in maybe the 2010s, mid2010s. So, >> you know, in defense of the New York Times, I think >> they they wrote their story that came out in like 2009. So, some things hadn't happened yet. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> I guess it's, you know, as a journalist, like I feel a lot of compassion for other journalists who are like >> just trying to like find a story, find something interesting to say, do a reasonable job, and like file it and move on. And there's so much to write about orgasmic meditation that's interesting to begin with. Like, >> what is it? How does it work? Where did it come from?

56:29 >> Wait, what happens in it again? >> And you know, it took me six or seven months to report that first story about these cult allegations. Like it takes time and resources. And so if that's not available to you as a journalist, like >> yeah, >> you it you know, you might just write the story that's like here's this interesting thing. Yeah, it's hard to say. >> It is hard to say cuz like obviously Cinon that's what it benefited from most. like no one had a game plan for junkies which was a big issue at the time where they failed in their integrity I think is where's kind of the followup what's eight months down the road who's someone who's used this system for four years that can talk you know that's where I think >> I don't know there can be some laziness

57:10 >> totally but there's tricky I mean this is a that's a broader question about >> journalism reporting the news all of it like >> how much resources does it take to hold >> um people accountable like it's expensive Well, and that some things can get out of like even reporting on obviously we have to report on a school shooting, but if you report on it, then people see it and then other people do it. Like it is complicated. There's like >> it is >> I don't know what the answer is, but it can create contagion effects. And I mean, frankly, some of the other things that helped One Taste get mainstream success were also endorsements from influential people such as Gwyneth Paltro, >> Tim Ferris, >> Tim Ferrris, Khloe Kardashian, >> two out of three friends of the pod.

57:56 >> And I don't necessarily blame them either. Like, you know, Tim's I think Tim wrote about One Taste in the 4-Hour Body, and so it was like a little bit more about the stroking practice. I mean the truth is it's like those were markers that could quickly signal to someone who was like wait orgasmic meditation what is this? like, oh well, it's been featured. You know, Nicole Dayon has appeared on the Goop podcast or she's spoken at a Goop conference. >> She did TED talk.

58:23 >> Yeah. Which >> TEDex? Okay. I don't know the difference. What's the difference? >> There are people who care about the difference. TED is >> TED is >> there's only one TED and there are many TEDexes, >> I think, is fair to say. This was their their regional TEDex is like a regional but the truth is her TEDex talk has been viewed like millions of times on YouTube and I mean it's hard to want to critique orgasmic meditation because again it was this commendable thing. It was like raising up >> female sexuality and like >> sounds like a good idea.

58:57 >> From all your years of of being immersed in it, do you see turning points for her? Like when does it get more and more corrupt? Is it just the expansion in the money that's making her want to use these um parishioners as uh you know allure for these people with money? Like when does it turn? Cuz it gets crazy. You weren't going to get there. >> So I think there's a few categories. First is in the early years of One Taste, the company was not bringing in enough money on its own to turn a profit. they were losing money every year. And the way that Nicole was able to support the company and keep it going was by striking up this relationship with Reese Jones, who is Silicon Valley investor, who she met in roughly 2006. And the two of them begin dating. You know, he's interested in One Taste, he's interested in supporting it,

59:53 and he ends up paying for business expenses and giving loans to the company. And as part of the arrangement, again, according to court testimony and many, many people I spoke to, as part of the arrangement, um, he was promised a sexual handler. And that ended up being something, you know, a job that certain employees of One Taste Women were asked if they wanted to do. And to be Reese's handler meant sometimes living at his house, which was like in Russian Hill in San Francisco, um taking care of his dog, maybe like fetching his groceries, tidying the house, and usually giving him some sort of sexual service every day.

1:00:34 >> Okay. >> Whether >> whether like a hand job or something similar. And it's really complicated because there are some people, you know, some employees of One Taste who had this job for a while and who I, you know, I think considered it an honor. >> No complaints. >> Yeah. No complaints. >> Yeah. And there are some people who again testified about this um at trial and you know talked about talked about this in detail with me and who feel like it was this exploitative setup in which they were taught certain psychological lessons that >> prepared them to want to say yes to this. They were taught that it was an honor. They were taught that like helping and serving Nicole and the company was like this great way to help the mission of spreading orgasmic meditation to the world. Um and they

1:01:28 were also taught certain philosophies within One Taste um about for example that it was sexually powerful if you could have sex with someone that you were not attracted to. >> Oh, this is one of the great Yeah. Yeah. Particularly if you had beef with you didn't get along with someone. >> Yeah. you had an aversion to them is how they would describe. >> It's like you slowly realize you hate this person and they go, "Well, you guys got to go in a room and fuck." >> Yeah.

1:01:55 >> And you're evolved if you're able to do that. >> But, you know, you can see how the teachings of a group could start off with the beginnings of a good idea. Like, oh, maybe it's good to like get out of your comfort zone, try things that you might >> Yeah. be a little unsure about, but then it can quickly expand into a rationale for pressuring people to do something that they don't want to do and then making them think that actually they did want it and that it was good for them.

1:02:27 >> And in general, many of the things at One Taste were pitched as like the ultimate goal is more personal growth. And so it's like well maybe you were experiencing something painful or uncomfortable or emotionally difficult but you might be also told that well that's you know staying with it is going to lead to more personal growth and people really wanted personal growth and so you'd be surprised at how frequently that can end up being the reward that is suggested. >> Yeah.

1:02:55 >> And then like the means to get there could be something that actually ends up being quite harmful. Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare. And she has this incredible tool she's devised where their line of questioning is all about getting down to your base desire. Right? That's kind of the premise is you have all these distracting desires, but if we can get to the corebased desire >> and address that, then there'll be some growth as well. So, as she would question you, you would >> intuit it eventually what she her base desire was.

1:03:42 >> And so this woman's talking and she's like, and we got to it. Oh my god, I want a child. I want a baby. And she feels this elation of finally getting out of her base thing. And he's like, "No, but there's something lower than that." >> Was deeper than that. And it was, of course, I need more orgasms. Was was, you know, a deeper based desire than >> than wanting a child. >> Wanting a child. >> I mean, to me, that's an example of something that shows up a lot in these groups that you could call alleged cults, which is they foster this belief that the leader knows better than you what you want.

1:04:21 >> Yeah. or that they possess wisdom and knowledge that you do not have access to. And >> when people hear that, sometimes their first reaction is like, "Oh, that's so sinister." >> But one thing I learned after talking to so many of these people that I appreciate now is that often for people who are looking for a solution or help or something in their life, it can feel like a relief to find someone who claims to have knowledge and wisdom that is going to help you and you then want to hand over your autonomy to them. In fact, it feels good to do so. You feel like >> this person is going to help me. It doesn't always feel like this sinister extractive thing. And so, there are people, you know, many small anecdotes of people who described like >> turning to Nicole in some sort of lecture or class and asking her like,

1:05:08 "What's next for me? Like, what do you see?" You know, they would ask her for guidance and she would often say like, "Oh, I think you should do this or that." And even within um some of the Wantes residences, she would often give out assignments which you didn't have to do them, but people wanted to do them because they thought that again doing the assignment would help them with their personal growth. >> Mhm. >> And so it's this gray area. It wasn't like you must do this thing, >> but she would suggest to people like, "Oh, your orgasm feels a little stuck these days. I think you would benefit from having sex with 30 different people in the next 30 days. That would be like a typical assignment. Again, according to people who like witness this >> and sex, not doing this 15 minutes.

1:05:56 >> So again, it's like orgasmic penetration is kind of the front door. And they did do a lot of oming even if you were more involved. But if you became more deeply involved, other sex acts became part of the >> Oh, wow. >> Arsenal. And they tried men for a while, but they jettisoned that. >> Yeah. There was a brief period where they did study and try to incorporate um M for men which is kind of the gender flipped version of orgasmic meditation where a woman strokes it's basically a hand job.

1:06:24 >> Yeah. >> Woman strokes a man's penis for 15 minutes. And >> the conclusion was >> good luck. The conclusion was >> exactly like no idea that the existence of this as a possibility was created too much of an incentive for like tit for tat >> and the whole point of orgasmic penitation is that you're supposed to be able to >> go home and like not tried it briefly and then you're right they put it to the side dude this doesn't work with you >> um okay now this is where it takes this really wild turn in my opinion which is she speak starts speaking more and more about honoring men's predatory nature >> the beast >> the beast >> they call it the beast >> inviting the beast not shaming the beast

1:07:15 accepting the outcome of the beast somehow being empowered by being abused by the beast there's like a route to that >> oh >> this is where it gets crazy I mean I think it all ends with this speech she gives about her bad but just how did that evolve? So basically the idea of the beast within one taste um and it's possible that one taste would dispute this but you know again according to people who were there the idea of the beast was that inside of most or maybe all of us there is an aggressive primal nature that has often been stifled judged shamed >> repressed. repressed >> and that there is value and enlightenment to being able to express this freely. And within one taste, you know, there's a pretty insular community, especially if you were again more involved. And so they wanted to experiment with social norms. And that

1:08:11 sometimes looked like, you know, condoning um like expressions of the beast. And so what people have described to me about how that played out in practice is that there were sometimes couples who would uh hit each other within one taste and that this was often allegedly justified as an expression of the beast >> and that rape is also potentially on the table. Oh, >> it gets really complicated. Going back to what Nicole had said about victimhood. And again, they taught within one taste that having a victim mentality was looked down on. And it goes hand in hand.

1:08:56 >> That's their sin basically. >> And it goes hand in hand with this idea that it is empowering to take full responsibility for your life and your experience. And again, there's a lot of value in that. I think having an attitude in life where like you feel like you have agency where you are not you know within actually within Nexium they would often talk about being at cause and at effect. So being at effect means like the world is >> happening to you. Yes. Yes.

1:09:24 >> And that can feel disempowering. Being at cause is a way that you can carry yourself and move through the world where you believe that you have agency in the world around you >> which is largely true again. Totally true. So again, that's what I found fascinating about this whole idea is like they have these ideas that have this really valuable kernel. >> Mhm. >> And it's hard to know when it goes too far. So anyway, there's this idea that, you know, you should take agency and responsibility for everything in your life. The flip side of that is like having a victim mentality is bad. Many people in one taste described to me how this was like a lesson that was taught broadly. And because they were also teaching about sex and Nicole also liked to make provocative statements about sexual relations, sexual dynamics.

1:10:12 There are video clips of her lecturing in courses where she talks about I want to make sure I characterize this correctly but she basically says you know at one point she makes a joke to a course where she says like oh we should make t-shirts that say I got raped and all I got was a victim story or I raped someone and all I got was a perpetrator story. >> Oh my god. And she has also spoken about she said something like women who have experienced sexual assault recovered emotionally faster if they took responsibility for their role in the experience. Something along those lines.

1:10:53 >> She also made a statement once that was like the the true way to deflect rape is to turn on 100%. They often talked about turning on within one taste. It's a bit That one's a bit trickier because like turning on had arguably like a more holistic meaning to them rather than a strictly sexual arousal meaning. Regardless, a lot of people described to me an attitude within one taste that was sort of like if you feel like you were assaulted or sexually assaulted, >> that's on you >> kind of. Yeah. And it is very complicated and for a lot of people that's like really horrifying.

1:11:34 >> Well, there's a story in the book of uh back to Morehouse and a male practitioner um being also encouraged to uh embrace his primal side. That's right. Who gets in a fight with his wife and punches his wife in the face. >> Close. >> Okay. >> So, at the at the welcomed consensus, which was again a spin-off of Morehouse, >> okay, >> you're totally right and I forgot this, so thank you for bringing it up. Yeah, >> part of the origin of this idea again of the like violence maybe being an expression of the beast, it gets even more complicated and gendered because within the welcome consensus which was a predecessor to one taste, a different group where they taught deliberate orgasm. They had a belief that again according to people who were there, they had a belief that

1:12:20 women were all powerful >> with their emotions. >> Yeah. their emotions that they were able to emit something that they called call, which was like an emotional signal to men and that men received this call and only responded to it. And they drew a parallel between that and I guess the mamlian pattern of like a female in estrus. Yeah. >> Emitting some sort of like >> sexual signal. Yeah. >> So they would argue that Anything that a man does in response to a woman, >> she wanted it.

1:12:59 >> Yes. Exactly. That she has put out a call for this and that he is merely responding. >> Yeah. >> And on some level you can be like, "Wow, what an interesting philosophy that really makes women into this powerful actor and at the same time it's obviously quite troubling because it suggests that men have no responsibility for the actions that they take. Yeah. And so one of the only one of the ways that this shows up in an anecdote from that era is Yes. a man who was in the welcome consensus gets in a argument with a woman and he feels the sudden urge to hit her and even though he has never hit a woman before he hits her in the face as hard as he can. He's been kind of encouraged to, >> you know, he described this to me and he said like, I know it sounds horrifying and you have to understand that on some level based on the philosophies that we

1:13:54 believed at the time, it made sense. >> Yeah. M >> and that it was like he believed that violence, you know, that violence was a form of emotional expression and that everything that he felt called to do was actually like in response to a woman's initiative. >> Yeah. >> But yes, that is a very complicated way of also saying basically like she asked for it. Yeah. >> Well, most importantly, she goes to the leader and says, "My this guy punched me in the face." And he said, "You need to find out what you did that caused that or I'm going to give you 10 times worse what he gave you." >> Yeah.

1:14:31 >> What if he was like, "Congratulations. That's what you wanted." >> You asked and he Yeah. I mean, that's what they're doing psychologically, like, "Oh, you you might not know that you wanted it, but your body knew and it told him and he did it." Again, it comes back to this central idea that Nicole is someone who I think believed that her pushing herself to her edges gave her spiritual growth and insight and evolution, >> enlightenment, >> enlightenment. Her pursuit of intensity brought her enlightenment and she >> believed that it would do the same for other people. Also, money's in the mix now because there's a point where this thing has generated $12 million.

1:15:15 >> Totally. Yeah. So, essentially there's a shift roughly around 2012 2013 when Reese, the original investor, actually um is no longer able, you know, he has a he suffers some financial misfortune, is no longer able to be supporting the company and he asks for um a repayment of his loan. M >> and this puts a lot of financial pressure on Nicole on the leadership of the company and they start to try to think about strategies for how to pay Reese back because he is and this came up at trial. There were even emails that we saw at trial about him being like I can't pay.

1:15:50 >> How much did they owe him? >> Roughly a million dollars. What happens around the same time is the company makes a decision to really start spinning up selling more expensive courses. So they they start pushing harder to sell, for example, the coaching program, which was a program that they had that lasted anywhere from 6 to 10 months in which people get trained to be a certified orgasmic meditation coach. And the coaching program became this like big thing that could cost any 10 to 20 grand. And um you would take this training and it was really like your immersion in like the one taste way of life.

1:16:27 >> And they're introducing new stratas all along too, right? We introduced like the notion of a pre-stroker. >> Oh yeah. Yeah. So first there's courses. It's like the coaching program, the Nicole Day Don intensive membership, which was basically a way to take any course you want for the course of, you know, over the course of a year. And then the priests and the priestesses, those appeared in 2015, maybe 2014, when one held this immersive course called Magic School, >> which was happening.

1:16:55 >> Now we're getting into the occult Hanukkah. They make videos. They make video videos that look like seances. Like it starts getting really oult and really like it's almost like again I'm I'm asking you kind of to psychoanalyze or maybe you don't have enough of the deets where it's like was the drug use picking up? Was it the money? But it's like it is coming off the rails of we're getting like this religious strata where the oult practices. I can only speculate, but my sense is as the company got bigger, she felt able to explore things that might have felt a little too risky earlier.

1:17:32 >> She's getting more confident. >> I think that's probably fair to say. >> Okay. >> And I think this is how it happens across the board with people all doing things where you're like, how how are you thinking that now? It's a slow sliding scale. It doesn't happen overnight. It does not happen. frog. It is the boiling frog. It's like you start out being like, "Oh yeah, I want to like have more empowerment over my body and that's normal." And then all of a sudden you're in magic school >> and you're going to some geriatric's house young man.

1:18:03 >> I have compassion for the fact that cuz it sounds so insane, but I think it's these little tiny baby steps and all of a sudden you're you're there. There's also a pragmatism to it which is you have to keep offering more and more insular and and more highlevel training to get more money. Like it can't just be the thing. It's got to evolve and get like it has to >> it's got to be a daily practice and you got to add in things all the time.

1:18:28 >> So at magic school Yeah. It's a four or five day immersive program and at the first magic school they had at the end of the course a ceremony in which they ordained I think it was like something like seven priests of orgasm and seven priestesses of orgasm in this elaborate ceremony where there was a group ohm demo in front of all the students who had participated. People were in like robes. Can we add too Nicole's a great performer so she steps in a lot of times to put on these 1-hour demos >> where she has this orgasmic trip through the cosmos and you all watch and it's like she's also a performer >> and what's interesting about that is in the early days she would participate in an demo as the woman who was being stroked >> and then later on she actually replaced herself and she would make herself the

1:19:22 stroker and a different woman would be she would stroke a different woman on stage and So in the in the you know 2013 and 2014, One Taste hosted these big orgasm conferences in San Francisco and the big headliner event would be Nicole stroking one of her like >> and I think that's really interesting because she probably look I don't know this is speculation but my guess is at some point she realized like she's the CEO of this company like she can't be the one on the table. It's a pretty vulnerable position to be in. And so she kind of elevated herself out of that.

1:19:57 >> Now is it okay so is it that or Okay, there's even a a piece with the the Morehouse founder which is like it's an interesting trajectory for the man to go, "No, I just want a service." That's already interesting. We haven't seen that historically. That's weird >> cuz there might be something interesting. >> Power dynamics, you mean? Yeah, there's something powerful about being in control of that that can be its own satiating >> journey.

1:20:26 >> I have this impact on somebody. >> Yeah. >> Well, this is where you get into the trauma. And again, saying how much I want to reveal, but I see >> if you have a guaranteed um pleasurable outcome that you can access with somebody >> and you are afraid of people's emotions otherwise. And this is a way you know you're [ __ ] safe. This person will be receiving pleasure. They'll be grateful. They'll like you. >> Uh I get it is what I'm saying. And the fact that her trajectory goes there, I'm just curious what is at play.

1:20:59 >> Well, also when your sexual autonomy is taken from you at a young age to regain that or feel that you've then reclaimed power over it is of of course going to seem appealing. >> Yeah. Broadly speaking, when you talk to people who are experts on the effects, the long-term lifetime effects of child sex abuse, it is often something like that. They will say that people who experience this as children will often, not always, but will often find ways to >> sometimes it looks like se acting out sexually, but it's a way to try to reassert agency over. Yeah. be in the driver's seat where it was taken.

1:21:42 >> That's probably what I relate to. >> Yeah. What drove her to move from being the strokey during these demos to the stroker, I truly don't know. It's inside her head. But >> I just think there's something really juicy there. >> Yeah. And it's possible that she was also just trying to um rise to a form of leadership by mimicking by taking over the man's role, which is kind of a like >> Yes. >> 2010's era women in power move.

1:22:07 >> Very. Yeah. Now, I love this whole story because I I I like to believe it's comforting to believe that just power and money makes everyone an [ __ ] and we're not we don't have a monopoly us men on it. So, I mean, there's some part of it that's comforting to me that's like, oh yeah, you put a woman at the top of a cult and guess what? She'll be a terrible person at the end of it. >> I mean, >> okay. So, it all leads to what I think is the the mo the darkest and most interesting speech she gives that's caught on camera, which is she's discussing her father and ultimately, and I'll botch it, and this is paraphrasing, but she basically says her father was operating on this fourth dimension, and that when he would try to lock back into this third dimension, it was a little

1:22:50 scrambled and that the people here didn't really understand his kind of basically enlightenment. So, I mean, she is on record and out loud basically saying it was the other people's fault and my dad really is fine. >> Not only fine, he's special. He's enlightened. >> She calls him expansive. >> So, I think that is at the core of this whole thing and the wanting to embrace and forgive the beast. >> Yeah. is all an attempt to as as as um as Sedaris says, all of my books have a singular goal of making you love my mother as much as I did. That's what every story is about. That's what every book's about. And I think there's some bizarre >> version of that at play here.

1:23:35 >> I think that's really insightful. So, yeah, she talks about she says something like, you know, I never took on the idea that my dad was a bad person. Mhm. >> I just believed that he was too expansive for the arbitrary laws of our third dimension and instead on the fourth dimension he was this like that he was this wonderful person and >> yeah dude that's [ __ ] >> it's so sad because that's so that's so human. Kids cannot >> they can't wrap their head around being hurt by their parent. It's too it's too um not connected to anything that's supposed to be. It's not the reality that we know.

1:24:16 >> And so in order to make sense of it, people do all it's destabilizing. It's the not the natural order of things. >> Your parents are supposed to protect you, not hurt you. >> It's deeply deeply confusing to a child. >> They spend their whole life trying to figure out how to make that make sense and this is how she did it. I think >> that's so sad. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I couldn't believe that part. I was like, "Okay, here we go. we're at the kind of the base of what's happening here that she's even taking the time in this other ceremony to even be talking about him is already weird.

1:24:48 >> I will never know for certain exactly what happened >> between Nicole and her father. But I think to look at a statement like that, it would be impossible not to feel this this human compassion for you can imagine like a little girl who is trying to you know it it Yeah. When you said it's it's deeply >> you only get one and she wants that one to have been a good one by hook or crook. She >> like have you seen the doc? What's the dock? Um that came out earlier this year. The girl's mom was sending her all these horrible texts.

1:25:26 >> Yes, I know that story. >> Oh my god. And and at the end, she's reconnecting with her mom. And it's just an example of this. Like kids are not supposed to feel that their parents are dangerous and they often just don't. They have to avoid it. Like your brain can't handle it. It's so upsetting. It's too much. And other people who have studied under Nicole have described to me that she also put forth theories like there is no such thing as pleasure or pain or good or evil. It's just all variance of sensation.

1:26:05 And this idea that like again there's a hint of some of that in like sitting meditation, mindfulness, this idea that like no feeling is necessarily like good or bad and instead of Buddhist Yeah. But you can also see how that type of idea might have served this part of her that wanted to make sense of her dad and to understand him as like you know what what what kind of thinking is going to allow her to say I never thought of my dad as a bad person. Well, I think at the very very core, if you distill it down, it's that all of our deepest fears would be that we're unlovable. And then you're assigned to people that are supposed to love you no matter what. But if they have behaviors that would suggest they didn't love you and they were trying to hurt you, it has the risk of confirming your ultimate fear, which is like, I'm so unlovable, my own parents didn't love me, they

1:26:52 abused me. So that outcome, anything's worth attempting to avoid that conclusion. >> Yeah. >> Let's say he didn't hurt her or abuse her. The fact that it's known that he abused other children is still still causes the same reaction. How could >> you're still supposed to love your kids enough to stay out of jail for them. >> So even if it was for other people, he should have stayed out of prison for her, >> right? And just but knowing that your father who you love could cause so much damage is just not something a kid can reconcile.

1:27:24 >> So it doesn't compute. >> Yeah. It won't compute. >> So how did she get brought down? Obviously, your article played a huge role in that cuz right after it was published, the FBI started looking into her. >> Yeah. I don't know for sure what prompted the FBI to start. It's possible they could have started before that story ran. But basically, that story ran in mid 2018. A few months later is the first time I heard from some of my sources. They were like, "The FBI is showing up at our doors." Yeah.

1:27:49 >> Knocking on our doors asking us about what happened at One Taste >> and coming back and asking more questions. And so I knew the FBI was investigating, but that's all I knew for many years. That's all anyone knew for many years. And 5 years later, after much investigation, they charged Nicole and Rachel Churitz, who was her second in command, with um forced labor conspiracy, which is a federal crime. And then two years later, there was a criminal trial this summer in Brooklyn.

1:28:20 >> And it went on for five or six weeks. And in the end, the jury unanimously decided that both Rachel and Nicole were guilty of forced labor conspiracy. And so the next day, both of the women were they had been out on bail. The next day, both women were taken into custody and they have been in a federal jail ever since. They are awaiting sentencing >> all the way to next September. >> No, it was supposed to happen this September. No, it's gotten delayed and so it could happen later this year or maybe more likely early next year.

1:28:55 >> Yeah. >> Whoa. >> So, one of your conclusions after all of this exploration and I think that was the thing that I found most shocking about the Nexium doc was >> it it went counter to who I would imagine would be susceptible to such a thing. almost without exclusion, all the Nexium followers were like incredibly bright industrious motivated conscientious, like dream employees. And I think a lot of us think you'd have to be stupid to fall for this. But I think you definitely have the goal in the book of pointing out like really this could happen anyone.

1:29:30 >> A lot of people have that thought, I would never join a cult or people who join cults are stupid. I completely understand why people have that thought because it's very comforting. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And it really makes you feel safe and it really makes you feel in control which is something that every human wants. >> Yes. >> And at the same time, you know, when I started reporting on this group, I it's not like I was a cult expert. Um, now I feel like I've done a lot of research and I kind of understand both this group and then like broad patterns generally.

1:30:00 And I think I would say that it's not about smarts. It's about your yearning and your seeking. And everyone has something that they are looking for. And if that right match finds you at the right time in your life when you are maybe having just gone through some sort of life transition or you moved to a new city or you went through a divorce or anything like that, you are at heightened vulnerability. So I think that some people are more vulnerable than others, but I do not agree that that there are people out there who are like totally immune to this risk.

1:30:37 >> I agree. >> And I think having some humility about that is actually probably protective. >> Yeah. >> Because if you assume that this will never happen to you, you might not recognize it when it does. And and cults look different now than they did >> 40 or 50 years ago. And I don't mean to be like fear-mongering, but it's just more about understanding that like by nature, humans are searching for things. And I think like if someone promises an answer, that's like a very tantalizing thing. One of the major things that I found interesting about researching and understanding one taste is just how much status games play a role in why people did certain behaviors within the group.

1:31:21 >> Yeah. All of a sudden, if you become really emotionally invested in a fairly tight-knit social circle with unusual rules and a very clear hierarchy and a pretty clear norm of what's accepted and approved of behavior and disapproved of behavior, you are going to make decisions >> that are in line with that set of social pressures. >> Yeah. rather than you know your own moral compass like your moral compass goes out the window. >> Well, your moral compass was set by your peers already. That's how we work.

1:31:57 >> There's no objective, you know. So, so people like you know observers will look at some of the choices that people made when they were inside one taste and they might judge and they might say I would never do that. Yeah, >> I would never agree to that kind of arrangement or I would never like, >> you know, stand by while my friend was being like punished for something. >> Yeah. >> But again and again, I spoke to people who said like, well, I did it because I knew it was going to get me approval. I did it because people who were higher status than me in the group told me that that's what I needed to do. I did it because I knew they would like me more if I did it. I didn't say anything because I was afraid I would get punished.

1:32:37 >> Yeah. >> If I spoke up. >> Yeah. >> Guess what? Like that's why >> we do everything. >> Yeah. That's why we do everything. That's exactly right. >> That is a lesson, you know, set aside like might I be tricked into a cold or whatever. Like set that aside that, you know, that is an interesting lesson to try to like reflect on. But more so than that, it's like in your daily life, it is interesting to try to be aware of how frequently you are making decisions.

1:33:06 Yeah. Based on like wanting approval or status or avoiding disapproval or pain or Yeah. >> Yeah. We're we're all really super susceptible to our context and we act in accordance with whatever our chosen group is. And what's interesting is I I read a book um the author has passed away, but she wrote this kind of seminal book about cult behavior. One of the things that really stuck with me is she said, >> "We're such finely tuned social creatures that we don't even need to be told what the rules are.

1:33:33 >> We are so good at looking around >> and just inferring >> what we should be doing." And within one taste, Nicole rarely commanded. She would just praise someone in a very targeted way if they did what she wanted or she would ignore or like look poorly on someone who didn't do what she wanted. That is more effective than telling someone >> you need to do this thing. >> And that's where it gets so tricky criminally for all these different things cuz everyone's consenting.

1:34:05 >> Yeah. In whatever broad definition you have of consent. >> I mean legally they're consenting. At the trial, the defense attorneys would often cross-examine witnesses and ask them questions like, "Well, were, you know, maybe they didn't use these exact words, but the suggestion was, >> was someone holding a gun to your head? >> Yeah. Were you punished? >> Were you locked in a room?" >> Yeah. Exactly.

1:34:28 >> Or could you have walked away? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> What they're suggesting there, in my opinion, is that implicit pressure doesn't exist. >> Look, it's a tricky one cuz we all want liberty. >> Yeah. Of course. >> Yeah. We got to we got to draw these really tenuous lines. >> Someone at trial said something that I think sums it up really well. This was like a former one taste member and he said on on the stand um if you can't freely say no then you can't freely say yes and therefore you can't consent. M >> so that is one framework to think about it >> which is that if >> someone said yes >> but the environment is such that a reasonable person would agree that there was not room to say no >> uh

1:35:13 >> yeah is it >> yes is that still yes and I I don't know that like as a society we've come >> to a clear conclusion on that but that's a central question that was coming up at trial that's been on my mind >> yeah but then you get into like Okay, then what's the line? So, a guy who joins a gang and it's pretty implicit, not stated, you should kill members of the opposing gang, is that person not have any responsibility cuz they So, it's like that's why it's murky and that's why it's really hard. That's why these can exist because we all do want liberty in our >> like many things, there's not an easy thing.

1:35:45 >> Yeah. Have you ever sat down face to face with uh Nicole? There is a scene at the end of the book where I meet her for the first time and we have our only conversation. I had at that point studied her for many years. I had spoken to people. I had spent hours talking to people who knew her. I had watched hours and hours of video of her lecturing, >> but we had never met. >> We had never talked. >> Is it fair to say she hated you? >> I don't I don't know.

1:36:13 >> Okay. Again, you were never in her head. >> She had just been indicted and I happened to be in New York for work. So, I went to She had a sort of procedural court hearing and I went to the courthouse in Brooklyn and I walked in and if you've ever been inside a federal courthouse, it's very um there's a lot of security. You like have to hand over your phone to the security guard. You put all your stuff through a metal detector and a scanning thing. So, I went through that and I was standing in the lobby with my notebook and like waiting to see if I knew she would show up. I just didn't know when. And she shows up with this whole entourage. So, it's her and her codefendant Rachel.

1:36:48 There are attorneys, probably like close to a dozen one taste supporters, some of whom like I recognize her faces. And they're going through the security line and Nicole spots me. She immediately smiles and waves. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And she calls out, "Hi, Ellen." >> Oh. >> And I was like, >> then I good. These levers are good. >> They're good. She's very good. You know, she like makes her way through security.

1:37:13 the rest of her entourage is still kind of like getting, you know, handing over their phones. And she approaches me and I I ask if I can shake her hand and I shake her hand and then she kind of hangs on for an extra second and she goes, "We have strange intimacy." >> And I was like, "Oh, yeah. Um, I'm sure I said something really dumb." And then I kind of was like, "It's great to meet you. Um, I'll see you in the courtroom." And that's our only conversation. And I think like, you know, it was just a moment and I don't need to like make it more than it is, but it is true. Like she's she's she's a charmer. And I think she really like knew how to describe our strange relationship. Yeah.

1:37:58 >> It's [ __ ] powerful. And another thing that I learned from a different cult researcher is like people often talk about charisma in cult leaders. And sometimes it falls flat because some people will look at a cult leader and be like that person's not charismatic at all. >> Keith when I watch that doc I'm like this is your dude. >> So what this researcher says and it has made a lot of sense to me is she's like I prefer to think of charisma as descriptive of um a relationship between two people. So there's charisma that exists in a connection between two people. So between a follower of Nexium and Keith, the charisma is off the charts.

1:38:34 >> Mhm. >> But someone from the outside might look at him and be like, it's lack it's totally lacking. >> This guy's a volleyball champ and a judo champ. >> Yeah. Or you know, maybe like one way I forgot about how much volleyball there is. >> Oh, he thinks he's like Olympic volleyball player. >> He loves volleyball. >> Yeah. But anyway, there were people who looked at Nicole and like became entranced. And then there were some people who looked at her and they're like, "This woman does nothing for me." And that doesn't negate, you know, that existence doesn't negate >> the pull that she had >> on these other people or the spell that she was able to cast on them. And I think that >> that helps also like give people more

1:39:11 compassion for like someone might be having a different experience with this person than I am. >> Oh yeah. people describe having like worked with her and then looked through the the delivery window of the food and caught a minute of her eye contact and felt more connected to her than anyone else they'd ever >> Yeah. >> I of course was just like, "Oh, I want to meet her as like a challenge. I wanted to see >> just out of curiosity." >> Yeah. I wanted to try to like woo me and I >> then when I was covering the trial, I saw her every day, but we didn't talk.

1:39:38 >> Yeah. >> And instead, I would be sitting in the courtroom, you know, for hours at a time. you can't bring in any devices. So, you're just there with your notebook. It's very meditative. You're like, >> and what I would do is I would also watch the people in the courtroom. So, like you're watching the one taste supporters who showing up on the other side every day and the lawyers and the jurors. And then mostly I would watch Nicole. It was funny because Rachel, her like second in command who was also um a defendant, Rachel would often not very expressive, would like look straight ahead, not really talk, was just and neither of them testified. So, you know, she wouldn't really talk very much. And Nicole was the opposite. She was like, anytime someone entered the courtroom, she would turn around >> and like be like, "Who is it?" And then

1:40:20 she recognized them, she would like >> put her hands on her heart and go like, >> and then like she would look at, you know, after the trial was over, I interviewed a few jurors and all of them >> said to me, they were like, "Nicole kept looking at us." >> Yeah. >> And trying to like make eye contact and like, you know, she would often smile. She would sometimes laugh. She would like whisper to her attorney. Like, she's very animated person. She's very alive like you know you're around her and you're like whoa this person has a lot of like >> energy.

1:40:46 >> Yeah. >> So yeah I would like >> observe her. I mean I'm not sure I came came away with like deep conclusions but it was fascinating to watch her even as she's not in a speaking role >> still >> try to like project kind of her energy out to the people around her. >> Yeah. >> Oh man. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Well the book is called Empire of Orgasm: Sex Power and the Downfall of a Wellness Cult. Um, I love when journalists who write mostly in short form write books because the pace is so [ __ ] good. It's like, again, it's like reading just >> a super compelling article. Like the the the information is coming so quick and concisely and and and cleverly worded and it's just uh a very exciting read.

1:41:30 >> Thank you. >> Yeah, it's a great book. Uh, I hope everyone checks out Empire of Orgasm. Ellen, this has been delightful. >> So fun. Thanks for coming. Who are you going to take down next? Who's next? >> Oh man, I >> you get an email about me just ignoring. >> I promise I won't look too hard, but you got to find out if you ever had a juicer. >> Yeah, we on the fact check. We'll get down to the nitty-gritty on the juicer.

1:41:55 >> There's just so many devices in the house. I don't know. >> Honestly, not be surprised. >> No, I wouldn't be surprised. >> She just loves the juice wellness. Yeah. And there you go. >> No one I tasted the juice. No one's arguing the juice was not delicious, >> fresh, >> but that's just a smoothie packet delivery really. That's a different business. >> Also, sorry, I got to do one second on it. The the the mad grab to make all companies a tech company during that era was so funny. It's like it's a juice company. That's not a tech company.

1:42:22 You're going to try to make it a tech company or >> You're totally right. It's like why does this need to be this huge engineering feat? They were selling like a juice subscription. Um, the juice machine was Wi-Fi connected in a way that was absolutely not necessary. They argued that it meant that they could scan the QR code of each juice pack and alert you if there had been a recall. >> Okay. Safety. >> But again, you could just squeeze it with your >> The big three around this time was like, we got to stop thinking about these as car companies and think about them as tech companies. I'm like, no you don't.

1:42:54 I need this [ __ ] to drive me to point B. I don't need a subscription on the screen. >> You know why there's this incentive? No, I mean it's it goes back to what we were saying earlier about like VC >> um so much money in VC giving heightened valuations to companies that could call themselves conceivably tech companies. So as soon as you can call yourself a tech company, you're going to get a valuation that's 5x what you could have gotten if you were just consumer a consumer goods like >> right GM's never going to 100x in the next 20 years. It's just not going to happen.

1:43:29 >> So there's a pretty big financial incentive to want to do that. >> Even if it was a bit of a stretch. >> Yeah. Well, Ellen, what a delight. I hope you'll read another book and come back to us. All right. Take care. >> We hope you enjoyed this episode. Unfortunately, they made some mistakes. >> Hello. >> Hello. >> How are they? >> Good. It's almost the weekend. >> I'm very pumped about the weekend.

1:43:59 >> It's been a very big week. >> Very, very big week. Lots and lots of episodes. And I filmed this week. >> Yeah. >> Which meant going to Long Beach. I was on the west side, which I never am. And I've been meaning to go look at the Palisades in Malibu. >> Oh, yeah. >> Have you been? >> No, I haven't. Well, no. >> It's a crazy drive just cuz I have, you know, I've driven Sunset to the beach so many times in my 10 years of living in Santa Monica. So, like I know how it's supposed to feel and I know how the PCH is supposed to feel leaving Santa Monica and driving up to >> Malibu. Mh.

1:44:37 >> And it's also was it was it was interesting to me how much of it all you log without knowing, right? Like your subconscious knows like as you're driving, you know where you're at based on all these kind of markers that you're not really paying attention to that you know. I kept going like I don't know cuz just like the entire side of the PCH on the left side is gone. There's none of those houses are there. >> So crazy. >> It's so crazy.

1:45:02 >> Are there is there like construction happening? Did you see? So, in the Palisades, it's insane how many houses are framed there already. >> Oh, there are. Okay. >> Yeah. I think I had this very pessimistic fear that like given the restraints of building permits and stuff in LA, which can be brutal. >> Yeah. >> I'm like, when will they and will people even try? >> Right. >> And there's just houses everywhere. Like >> so you are seeing them even though it's like >> they're mostly just framed or they're you know uh I was thinking as you would know better than anyone I was like it's so deceptive when if you build a house when you see it framed you're like oh I have a house I'll be in this in 10

1:45:41 minutes and you're like oh no you're it hasn't even begun. >> I know. >> And they frame these houses they frame them in a few days. It's like insane how quickly they build the physical wooden structure of it. >> I know. And then you're just years out from before that final piece of tile goes in. >> I know. Speaking of that, I'm coming real I'm close. I'm close, everyone. >> Ticky >> to moving in. I mean, I'm like >> like what's left?

1:46:10 >> Exactly. Like >> what pretty necklaces you have on today. >> Thank you. I have two necklaces on. Um I'm like less than two WEEKS OUT. >> NO WAY. >> YES. >> And it's really exciting. Callie um came to visit me yesterday and she was telling the designer, she was like, "You know, Monica and I built our, you know, we had to design our dorm room >> and now this is where she gets to live." And she was very proud and happy for me.

1:46:42 I'm lucky and I'm excited. And I I also though I keep having nightmares. >> Oh, wonderful. What type of nightmares? I don't know. I'm not a big nightmare gal. >> I don't really have many, >> but I've been having a lot more lately. And I I think it I assume has to do with this big huge transition that's coming that I again I'm so grateful. Yeah. >> To be able to do and so lucky. >> But you have change anxiety as as we've well >> documented. Yes. Change isn't my um it doesn't come that easy to me. The nightmares are like murdery and and stuff like that.

1:47:23 >> Oh, like you're afraid to be in the new house >> by myself. >> Uhhuh. >> So, I think I already it was that's been lingering a little bit for a long time like like it's that's a big house, you know, and now it's coming like I'm about it's and and it feels a little it's so exciting but it is a little scary. There's so many. I feel like I shouldn't even say this on here, but there's multiple entry points.

1:47:49 >> Pull to home. I think they might have concluded there's not a single entrance. What if you had to leave your front door under the street and then walk around to get on your deck? >> That'd be great. >> Go to your pool. >> I feel like I should I should lock up the rest of I should make it hard. Yeah. >> Why don't you have um young Jess come stay at your house the first week or something? >> I know. I'm thinking about that. And I'm thinking about trying to do, you know, kind of ease my way in and have some people stay.

1:48:17 >> Um I just then then they leave >> and there will be a day or maybe I'll be ready by then. I don't know. But there'll be a day that I'll be by myself. >> My prediction is you'll be >> shockingly comfortable very quickly. I think you're Yeah. That the unknown of it and the thought of being in that big house by yourself is quite scary. But I think I think very quickly I cuz even I had that moving from our old house to this house, you know, it's just like a new thing and I the threats are all the same by the way. It doesn't matter if you you have you have two doors in your current apartment. People get killed just as much as in apartments as they do houses, you know.

1:48:55 >> Well, yes and no. I they probably don't because they I bet robbery is much higher in a house than in an apartment because the items >> But robbers don't kill people. Well, if they're in there, >> no. Robbers aren't killers. Robbers come to rob stuff. They hope and not interact with >> they hope to, but sometimes when they do, >> so if you don't go confront them and try to stop them, they're not there to kill anyone. Those are killer. People who are in the market to murder someone are much different than people who want to go steal [ __ ] >> Yeah, I understand you think that's helpful to say. I But it's not. I I I don't want to be robbed and I don't want to be robbed when I'm in my house. Yeah.

1:49:36 >> Or when I'm not. >> It's very scary the thought of being robbed. But if you read a statistic >> that robberies never end in murder unless the homeowner confronts the asalent. If you read that statistic, would it comfort you at all or no? >> But can but like can if they come in my room and I'm in my room? >> Yeah. >> I didn't go there them. I I don't It's in the trying to stop them where they think they might get arrested where you have problems.

1:50:01 >> Yeah. Um Yeah. >> But they're not like, I want to go murder someone. They're like, I want [ __ ] so I have money so I can get the thing I'm trying to get. >> Right. Murder is not going to help them in that at all. >> I agree. I think there's this sense of like and in my apartment if I scream, people can hear me. They're like above me and next door and they'll be able to hear my screams. >> Yeah. But you also have an alarm at your house which you don't have it here.

1:50:25 >> Exactly. That's right. And a lot of security. Yes, I I am definitely more protected >> in the house, but it's just new. And um I do remember when I first moved into my apartment that first night I I slept at Callie's. >> You did. You left your apartment. >> Yeah. I couldn't do it. >> So, it'll But it'll be great. And it's um and it's a big big old change on the horizon. >> Yeah, I'm excited for you.

1:50:59 >> Thank you. Me, too. >> Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare. >> Dr. Mike's coming over tonight. >> Oh, that's fun. Yeah, he's in town, so he's going to join us for a family dinner. And then um Frankenstein, which I haven't seen. >> I haven't seen it either. >> And I've gotten my children willing to watch what is on the surface a scary movie because Jacob Lord's in it.

1:51:32 >> Oh, God bless his handsomeness. >> I know. >> It'll buy you a lot. >> It will. I think they're willing to get through anything. I also heard it's not Have you watched it? >> No, I No, I want to. >> I've heard it's not as scary as you might think. >> Yeah, I want to see it. I also didn't know that was a GMO del Toro movie and I see all of his movies and he's a genius.

1:51:50 So then all of a sudden I was like why haven't I seen this movie? >> Yeah. Um I saw a movie that I want to shout out Eternity. It is Elizabeth Olsen and Miles Teller and Callum Turner and it's a romcomish. Uh, and it's so good and so sweet and heartwarming and I just loved it. >> Oh, good. >> I really recommend if you want like a feelood. >> Where did you stream it? >> I did rent it. >> I rented it. >> Yeah.

1:52:24 >> I think soon it will be out to stream. >> Okay. >> It was just out in theaters like in November or something. But I highly recommend it if you want something that makes you feel good >> and you optimistic cry but in a happy way and a sad way >> and but also a happy way. Um I recommend that. I have a recommendation too and it's kind of a funny circuitous route to this recommendation which is I had >> dinner with Malcolm >> who was in town which is great and I had remembered that he is he kept going to Alabama to do a story on a murder.

1:53:01 >> Mhm. >> The last time I had seen him in New York and I said hey how's that story coming? And he said he said oh my god it's so good. It turned out so good. It's out. >> Oh. >> And I go it's out. And I said, "Oh my god, this is my problem with your show." Because you're not weekly. I don't ever know when a new season comes out >> of Revisionist History. >> You got to subscribe.

1:53:23 >> I do subscribe. >> Oh, then it should pop up on your Spotify. >> It doesn't. Maybe I'm not using it correctly. But suffice to say, I I was unaware of it. So, I knew I had to drive to Long Beach. I'm like, "Oh, perfect. I'll start Malcolm's murder murder show." Mhm. >> So I go and I see like the most recent revisionist history and I start it and the first episode is about um genius and the two different kinds of genius which is fascinating. There's like there's there's distinctly two types and one is the the archetype's Picasso which is like he explodes on the scene at 20 years old and he's doing something no one else is doing and he's just so fast and he can rip these things out and it's so impressive. And then there's Seaison,

1:54:10 who's also the master of all masters. And his paintings, the ones you've seen, have been redone sometimes like eight, nine times. They've taken years. >> Okay. >> And then he uses this parallel to talk about Leonard Cohen >> and his music and like Hallelujah. He wrote that song for 10 years and he made like four or five failed versions of it before it becomes the one that we know. But even more interestingly, >> we really know the Jeff Buckley version, right? So it's like it's then Jeff Buckley's interpretation of this thing that is now really everyone that's doing it now is doing >> his.

1:54:53 >> Yeah. So, it's just like this complicated >> route iteration to perfection and I'm fascinated. It's great. I love listening to it. It's a lot about Elvis Costello. It's very cute cuz you hear Malcolm was such a um a music nerd as a kid was going this concert. Yeah. Yeah. It's very cute. >> And I'm going when will he seamlessly integrate a murder >> plotline into this? >> And then the next episode starts and it is about sad songs. And then on the Rolling Stones top 50 songs of all time, he goes through them and saying there's almost no sad songs on this list.

1:55:27 >> Weird. >> And then he goes into this whole thing about country, how country has really um fearlessly explores sadness like no other genre. And and the hits in country are often like their alcoholism and their death and their divorce and all these topics. The thing that was so fascinating about it is like he then references this other guy who put the 1,500 songs into this algorithm he created that would what it would do is it would basically it could listen to the song and then tell you what percentage of the lyrics are unique and which percentage are repeated.

1:56:01 >> Okay. >> Does that make sense? Like through chorus or whatever they're repeating stanzas, whatever. Yeah. >> And so it turns out like that rock is like I want to say it was like 60% is new and then 40% of all the lyrics are repeated. >> Okay. And then in country, oh, and the other point he had made before he makes this point is that the heartbreak, he compares Wild Horses as a sad song by the Rolling Stones to this country song. And and he says the reason this country song is so much more heartbreaking is is the specificity of it. It's like emotion coupled with specificity really results in this emotion. And country music has far less repetition. Then he goes through this fascinating thing where he reads a list of like the top hundred country songs ever written.

1:56:46 >> Lucky. >> He doesn't go through the whole He knows better. >> Oh, him and I need to have a podcast where he just reads hundred lists. >> But he didn't but he didn't go through the whole list. >> Okay. But >> what he immediately shows you is that almost every single one of the songs was written by someone from either Arkansas, Texas, or Kentucky, maybe Tennessee. >> In the country list >> in the country top 100 of all time.

1:57:08 Okay. >> They're all written by Protestants. They're white Protestant Southerners from almost three or four states. The entire list. >> If you look at the list of all the top rock songs, it's people from everywhere in the world, right? >> And he said, "So rock as a genre is way more diverse, which is why rock iterates way faster. Rock changes a lot more than country has changed, right? because of all these diversity of viewpoints, he said, "But the price it pays is rock can't be specific because it's not speaking a language everyone listening already speaks," >> which is so interesting. So the country people, >> they don't have to bury it in metaphor or repeat it. They give you the specifics because they assume everyone listening already speaks the language

1:57:56 and knows all of it. And he said, "The only other genre that does that is hip-hop." I was about to say rap does it. >> Yes. And he said again it's written by he reads that list. The top list of those is like Brooklyn, Brooklyn, South Central, Bronx, South Central, Brooklyn, Brooklyn. Right. It's all from >> it's very concentrated and everyone already speaks the language. They're not going to dumb it down for anybody. >> Yeah, that's interesting.

1:58:20 >> And I have always been saying those two genres to me are identical genres. It's like the white version and the black version. And my explanation was like it talks about socioeconomic struggle. That was why I thought they were so similar, which I still maintain as part of it. But to hear this other explanation which is so fascinating is no, it's the specificity that it's only being written by these handful of people for other people in that community is really cool. >> That's very cool. Yeah. I mean, I definitely think we've I've said this a lot like the more specific you get, the more universal you get.

1:58:55 >> Yeah. >> Which is counterintuitive, but it's true. >> Yeah. So that applies here >> all to say I'm like wow where is the mur now I' now I have this whole education on country music and all these singer songwriters I'm like how the [ __ ] is he going to get a murder in Alabama in this mix think oh country >> so then somehow my phone [ __ ] up and it sends me now back to the main page like it doesn't autoload the next one whatever it is and now I realize when I opened up revision history the first time that was what was the most recent.

1:59:30 But now when I'm back on the page, I'm seeing the [ __ ] that he's that is not his stuff that's in his normal feed. And then I see >> Murder in Alabama. I mean, that is the name of the series. Then I started Murder in Alabama cuz again, I was driving around so much looking at uh Palisades in Alabama. >> Oh, that's funny. Okay, that makes sense cuz I was like, "Wow, he's really taking his time." >> And that's that's hard to do in a podcast. And then the other thing that was tripping me up, and I I'm not saying anything. I said this directly to him. I sent him a voice memo, >> which was the music one was really good, >> but I was also like, "Wow, he thinks this is the best thing he's ever done.

2:00:10 It's really good, but it doesn't feel head and shoulders above anything else I've listened to of his." So, I wonder and then I get more fascinated with why what about what did he get out of his heart and his mind in this one that is he feels so proud of, right? But I wasn't even on the right [ __ ] one. >> I see. Wow. Okay, >> I can make a little up on my pedestal point I've been thinking a lot about lately. >> Okay, let's hear it.

2:00:32 >> I think no one likes paying taxes. >> You think? >> Yeah. So, I think that it's safe to say no one likes paying taxes. And I think the assumption, and I can relate to this, is like, hold on, I went out and made this money. Why do I have to give half of it to you? And then you start thinking about where's that money going and this and that. But I think what you don't think about is you were able to make that money because this is a place that enforces the laws that has highways that you can transport goods on.

2:01:08 >> Yep. >> That you know all of the stuff >> I think we all it's it's the same condition we all suffer from where we think we got ourselves to where we're at and we don't acknowledge everyone else who got us here. It's like you can't make money unless you have this really robust system in place that allows you to do it in the first place. >> Also, if >> that's what you're paying for is the as a place where one can be prosperous.

2:01:30 >> Yeah. And if you have a good or a service, the people around you need to have money to be able to buy your service or your product. So, it benefits you >> for everyone to have stuff and have have money and have some abundance so that you can keep your thing up. Like, it's all connected. >> Even the service or the product, right? You have a product and the reason you can profit on it is because if someone tries to make the same product and sell it under the same name as yours, you can take them to court. There's a system in place that will allow you to profit from the thing that you created.

2:02:07 >> Right. Right. >> You're you're safeguarded. Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean, when we had Walter Isacson on, we talked so much about this and I thought it was great where he talks about the commons and and the way that this country was built is is is because of the common goods. >> Yeah. >> And that's what taxes go to. And we wouldn't have a country like this if we didn't have that. >> Yeah. Like people like to make a big deal out of the fact that Elon did successfully move Tesla to Texas, >> right? But it's a little unfair because it's like he couldn't have made Tesla there.

2:02:42 >> Exactly. >> But now that it is what it is, he can take it there and just pay way less taxes. >> But it's quite unfair because it's like you could you should kind of give back to the system that allowed you to make the thing in the first place. It's like the second you can be independent from it to some degree >> where you were able to innovate it. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. It is. That's a good I like that.

2:03:02 That's a good soap box. I read I I read a quote. I posted it because I thought it was nice. That's very in keeping with what you're saying. That said, I also posted about Veronica Mars. It's on Netflix. People should go watch Veronica Mars on Netflix. >> Oh, it just got there. >> Yes. It's very exciting. One of my favorite shows of all time. Okay. So, thinking today about the park ranger in Mir Woods on Thanksgiving Day 2025, who told us that red woods distribute water to other trees and plants that surround them because they know that if they hug all the water from themselves and let everything else go dry, they're at greater risk of burning. in a wildfire.

2:03:37 I don't think that story was just about trees. >> So, it's same concept. >> Yeah, that's nice. >> Same concept. >> I like that. >> Um, >> well, let's do some facts. >> Ellen Facts. Ellen Fox. Um, >> it sounds like it could be a name. Ellen Fax. >> It could >> like a news reporter. Some of these reporters, you know, they like to give themselves a name that seems really on brand with what they do. It's true.

2:04:03 Dallas Reigns. You know, the meteorologists seem to do this more, but >> yeah, I agree. >> You could be Ellen Fact. You could change your name to Monica Fax. >> Moths. >> She had an issue with moths. >> And they are the bane of my existence. >> Yes, exactly. Now, it says to get rid of closet ms, deep clean the closet by vacuuming and wiping surfaces. Treat infested clothes by washing or freezing them to kill eggs and larvae. I hate the word eggs and larvae. And use natural deterrents like cedar and lavender. My my closet has so much cedar all over.

2:04:42 >> You have those little cedar sticks that hang on the hook. >> Yeah. And like balls. >> I noticed those were in my closet in Nashville. I get taken care of, but I don't even know sometimes. Sometimes it flies over my head. But I did notice. Oh, someone had the foresight and kindness to put one of those in my closet. You need it along with pheromone traps to break the breeding cycle. I hate the word breeding cycle. And prevent reinfestation. I hate moths. >> Yeah.

2:05:06 >> Okay. Now, um >> you might need to publish a list in descending order of fear. Your most hated animals down to moss. I do I of course want to know are moss above or below dogs, >> right? >> Snakes. >> Oh, >> there's so many of these animals that you hate. mice where we need a comprehensive >> are we going hate or scared of? Because those are actually different. >> But break that down for me. >> So I don't I'm not I'm not scared >> of a moth.

2:05:37 >> Of a moth. Exactly. But I hate them. >> Isn't it crazy when you kill them? Do you ever kill moths with your hand? >> Um I've tried. >> Or with a [ __ ] object. >> Yeah. >> They just turn to powder. They're They're like made of powder. >> Well, okay. So, there's moths and then there's these tiny guys that kind of look like moths, but they actually come out of your rice.

2:05:56 >> Oh, >> and those are dis they're so easy to kill that it's actually like it's so disgusting. And then they do they just like they're just like nothing. >> They turn into a little pile of uh cotton dust. >> It's it's like they >> clear that they've been eating cotton. >> What the seahorse is it's like that dust made into a seahorse >> returns back to A POWDER.

2:06:19 >> EW. E ROB, >> they're kind of pretty. >> No, >> the pantry moth. >> A pantry moth. >> Oh, yeah. Those are the ones that get in the rice. Ew. I don't want to look at that anymore. >> It's stuck on the TV. I don't know. It's stuck on the TV. >> Okay. So, for venture capitalists, what percentage of companies do VCs count on succeeding? VCs count on a few big homerun successes to cover many failures, which estimates suggesting up to 75% of VC backed startups fail. While only a tiny fraction, around 9% generate all the industry's profits, most VCs expect only one in 10 funded companies to be truly successful. Okay. Is the actor's way is it courses? Yes. 10 lessons holistic online acting course.

2:07:05 Okay. Arowan. I wrote down Arowan. I don't know why I wrote that down, but um Oh, cuz his name was Erwan or something >> and we thought it was Arowan. And I just wonder if people even know that Arowan is nowhere spelled backwards. >> I did not know that. That's intentional. Do you like that? >> This is very stupid. >> Okay. Okay. Okay. I don't know where to I'm just going to keep my opinion to myself if you are super gunho about that.

2:07:31 >> No, it feels so pretentious. But I do like Arowan. I have to be honest about that. And I know it's like absolutely ridiculous. It's ridiculous. Like it's so expensive, >> but I like it in there. >> Yeah, people do. People like travel here to go. >> And I like their pre-made. They're like pre-made food is good. >> Uhhuh. Well, you get what you pay for >> and you and Yeah. >> And you don't you don't get upset.

2:07:57 >> You get what you pay for and you don't get upset. >> It's my adage. I have that tattooed on my small on my back. >> Oh, I really liked this what she said. A definition of consent. I really liked this. If you can't freely say no, then you can't freely say yes. >> I really liked that a lot. >> I checked to see if Kristen had a juicer. She did not. >> Okay, >> so that's a feather in her cap.

2:08:20 >> Now I know what to get her for her birthday >> come July. >> Exactly. Um that's all for the facts. >> All right. Love you. >> Love you.

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "Ellen Huet (on wellness cults) | Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard"?

Dax Shepard (Host), Ellen Huet (Guest).

What is "Ellen Huet (on wellness cults) | Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard" about?

Ellen Huet, an investigative reporter, discusses her book "Empire of Orgasm: Sex, Power, and the Downfall of a Wellness Cult," which explores the complexities and controversies surrounding wellness cults. The conversation delves into the dynamics of power and sexuality within these groups, highlighting the intriguing yet troubling aspects of cult culture.

What is mentioned in this Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard episode?

11 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including One Taste, Ellen Hwitt, Nicole Dayon, Empire of Orgasm: Sex, Power, and the Downfall of a Wellness Cult, Reese Jones, WeWork. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "Ellen Huet (on wellness cults) | Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard"?

The episode runs 2 h 9 min; the transcript is about 25,138 words in 230 timestamped sections.

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