Kumail Nanjiani Returns | Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard

What this episode is about

Kumail Nanjiani, an accomplished actor and comedian known for roles in "The Big Sick" and "Silicon Valley," returns to share insights about his career and personal experiences, including conversations about body image and transformation among friends. The discussion also touches on Nanjiani's current work, including his stand-up special "Night Thoughts" streaming on Hulu.

Key takeaways

• Ethan Suplee shed 180 pounds, proving the Butterfly Effect is more than just a film title.
• Kumail Nanjiani's comedy: sharper than the corner of a building, and just as memorable.
• Rob McElhenney's name change is a testament to identity—he's evolved from McElhenney to Rob Mack.
• In the 80s, vacuum cleaners had curves; now they just have apps. Progress?
• Art is now anything that sparks a reaction, from a toilet seat to a vacuum in a box.

Who speaks in this episode?

• Dax Shepard (Host) · 1 h 15 min speaking
• Kumail Nanjiani (Guest) · 50 min speaking
• Monica Maus (Guest) · 12 min speaking

What is discussed, and when

1. 0:00 – 15:00: Night Thoughts, Eternals, Monica Maus
2. 15:00 – 30:00: All State
3. 30:00 – 45:00: Eternals, Brandon Lee, Evan Peters, The Crow
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00: Eternals, Night Thoughts
5. 1:00:00 – 1:15:00: Night Thoughts, Triple R
6. 1:45:00 – 2:00:00: Evan Peters

Notable quotes from "Kumail Nanjiani Returns | Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard"

• He was in The Big Sick of course, Silicon Valley, Stuber, Eternals, The Loveirds, and he has a standup special that is streaming right now on Hulu that I loved called Night Thoughts. Please enjoy our friend Kumal Nani.

  about Eternals · at 0:29

• We are supported by All State. Checking All State first could save you hundreds on car insurance. That's smart. Not checking the pockets of your jeans before doing laundry. Classic oversight.

  about All State · at 27:20

• The happy beyond like any kind of reasonable thing. Do you know who does a really good job? Evan Peters in is it is he in mayor of East Town?

  about Evan Peters · at 35:42

• Everywhere. I think I was one of the victims of this. Yeah, I was watching The Crow with Brandon Lee. RIP.

  about Brandon Lee · at 40:11

• Yeah. What was that [ __ ] incredible movie that took over Netflix? I loved Triple R. Those guys are [ __ ] beef cakes.

  about Triple R · at 1:02:00

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

• Kumail Nanjiani — Person · 4 mentions
• Evan Peters — Person · 2 mentions · first at 35:45
• Ethan Suplee — Person · 2 mentions
• Rob McElhenney — Person · 2 mentions
• Monica Maus — Person · 1 mention · first at 0:04
  Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. I'm Dan Rather and I'm joined by Monica Maus.
• Brandon Lee — Person · 1 mention · first at 40:14
• Juliette Lewis — Person · 1 mention

Books & papers

• Night Thoughts — Book · 5 mentions · first at 0:40
  Loveirds, and he has a standup special that is streaming right now on Hulu that I loved called Night Thoughts. Please enjoy our friend Kumal Nani.

Companies & orgs

• All State — Company · 2 mentions · first at 27:20
• Hulu — Company · 1 mention
• TurboTax — Company · 1 mention

Products & tech

• Eternals — Product · 6 mentions · first at 0:31
• The Crow — Product · 1 mention · first at 40:14
  Everywhere. I think I was one of the victims of this. Yeah, I was watching The Crow with Brandon Lee. RIP.
• Triple R — Product · 1 mention · first at 1:02:03

Concepts & topics

• HIV — Concept · 1 mention

Full transcript with timestamps

0:00 Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. I'm Dan Rather and I'm joined by Monica Maus.

0:04 Hi. Today we have a returning guest. I think this is Camo's third appearance on the show. He had a solo. He had Rob. He and Rob men's body is uh

0:14 Rob Mac, as you'll hear, which I still need to text him and find out if this I got to verify this claim. [ __ ]

0:21 it's real. I saw it online. Oh, it is. Okay. Kuml Nani is an actor, a stand-up comedian, and a screenwriter. Uh he was in The Big Sick of course, Silicon Valley, Stuber, Eternals, The Loveirds, and he has a standup special that is streaming right now on Hulu that I loved called Night Thoughts. Please enjoy our friend Kumal Nani. He's an object. He's an object.

1:03 Your friend makes sparkly water. Nope. Do you know Ethan Si? Yeah. You do? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

1:08 The most special guy on the planet, right? He's a great guy. Yeah. He's magic. But he text me out of the blue. He's like

1:13 I know. He also had a he had a big body journey as well. He has the most impressive.

1:19 He had the most impressive. Yeah. Yeah. Those before and afters. And I worked with him on without a paddle 21 years ago. And I think he was

1:28 Oh, he was probably down to 330 from 410. 410. That was his max in butterfly effect. That movie Monica's rejoining us for the listener. She squirted.

1:42 Yeah, I did. I did take the option disc. Don't say that. Don't give in. It's a This is how you hold on.

1:50 I have to pick my battles here. Okay. Well, that one though, that's not one of the ones you picked.

1:58 It's not. You'd be shocked. But Butterfly Effect, I don't know if you ever saw that movie.

2:03 Uh with Ashton. Exactly. Um Ethan was 410 in that. How tall is he? Like 6'2 max.

2:09 Yeah, he's big. He's probably 6'1 or 6'2. 410's, you know, that's a massive amount of weight. And I think he I don't know where he's at now, but if you follow him on Instagram, he's like clearly in the 230 range.

2:21 We used to go to the same gym. So, I'd say Is that how you know him? No, I know him just from being around actor. Super nice guy. Him and TJ did a movie called Unstoppable, I believe it was called,

2:34 with Denzel, who's that? Oh, there's a very famous black actor. Oh, John David's dad. Yeah. Um, yeah. So, I think I met him through TJ back then and then we kind of stayed in touch, but then I would run into him at the gym and I worked with his sister-in-law, Juliet Lewis.

2:54 Oh, yes. You know your stuff. Yeah. Um, it's so good to see you. It's been a long time.

3:00 Has it? It has. Right. It feels like I haven't seen you in a while. We've texted.

3:03 We've texted, but we haven't really I haven't really seen you. You look You look big. You look big. What are you doing?

3:10 Do you like it? Let's just start with do you like it? I like it. When I hugged you, I felt it before I saw it.

3:16 And did you like bounce off? I'm worried people are like bouncing off. Emily says when I first did that, she was like it's like having sex with the corner of a building.

3:24 Yeah. And that's what it felt like hugging you. It was like trying to hug the corner of a building.

3:30 Corner of a building. Yes. We we text each other often. You Rob Melhenny and I.

3:35 Yes. And it's Well, Rob Mack now. Rob Mack. Is he short? He changed his name. No, he did not

3:40 legally change his name. No, he didn't. Yep. In the credits it says Rob Mack. That's so helpful because I could never nail Mhenny.

3:47 I know. I've never said it with confidence. My name is Niani. Yeah, Malenny. I don't know where to stress. Is it Malenny? Melanie. I mean,

3:55 and I once said his name wrong on here and he texted me and he said, "Listen, this is how it works. If it's after the C, if it's followed by a a vowel,

4:03 then it's I've I'm checked out already, right? I've already stopped being You want to know the rule? Is it what is it?

4:10 Like McDonald's because it's it's a little C and then a consonant. That's Mac. I must have this wrong if he changed his name to Mac.

4:18 Mick. Yeah, that's Mick. That's McDonald's. McDonald's. If there's a vowel, it's Melhenny.

4:23 I never knew that. It's too much. I'm glad he went with Mac. That's wild that he did that. That's a huge identity.

4:30 He had like a big I believe he had a big press conference about it. Oh, he did.

4:34 I don't think he had a conference, but there was a press release. I think there was a press release.

4:38 Okay. Wow. This is like um I'm shocked. Kirby was Baptista. Baptist. Great. Kirby's now just Kirby.

4:49 Just one name. Kirby. Yes. Isn't it cool? She said she second guessed it a bunch, but she's sticking with it.

4:55 Just Kirby. Just Kirby. I think of Kirby as like Mario's buddy. The little cloud guy.

5:01 I think of the vacuum cleaner from the 80s. I've never heard of that. Beautiful machine. heavy heavy metal design.

5:08 Vacuum cleaners in the 80s were gorgeous. They really were. Yeah, they were pretty. They weren't trying to be sleek. They were like, "This is what I am."

5:15 And even that um who's the very famous uh artist in New York who has a factory uh coots.

5:20 Oh, his two some of his first work that got all the acclaim was just these looseite glass boxes with these vacuums in them as they came from Sears and those are worth millions.

5:30 What was he saying about that? What was he? I have problems with to crawl into the mind of

5:35 You have problems with objects being co-opted and called art. Yeah. Mhm. He didn't invent that vacuum cleaner. If he invented the vacuum cleaner and then put it in the box, that's fine.

5:48 I used to be like that and now I I'm like, you know what? If anything gets a reaction, it can be art. So if they can articulate like the big thing was a toilet seat hanging on the wall you know that people were like this is art. I'm like well in that context I guess it is art. I'm not paying a million dollars for two vacuum cleaners in a box of lucite but

6:09 you know I if you can get away with it get away with it. But is this art like my foot

6:15 is your foot art? I bet to some people it just talked about with the foot fetish.

6:20 We have a we have a friend with a foot fetish. Do you really? Yeah. Yeah. I mean feet is a thing. He's safe. He's married. There's no threat.

6:27 Yeah, there's no threat. But he is obsessed with Monica's feet. And he one time took a cheese grater to them.

6:31 Yeah. And he really went at it. What are you What are you What are you up to? What the [ __ ] are you talking about?

6:39 He's safe. He just once cheese grated my feet. Your bar is so low, Monica. I know. I'm sorry. I have to take it where I can get it.

6:47 Wait, was he getting the dry skin? Can you relate though, Kumo? Huh? Can't you relate? I can. If like a girl wanted to do anything to my feet, I'd be like, "Yes, thank you."

6:56 But I didn't do it. I was receiving. I know that I'm saying I'm putting myself in your shoes.

7:01 Oh, if a woman is interested in my feet, I don't care. Like, I'm just so flattered by that. I I feel quite self-conscious about my feet.

7:09 Like, I've been on set sometimes and they're like, "All right, could you have your socks off for this?" I'm like, "I need a week's notice before you could do that."

7:15 What do you do during the week to get them prepped? I have gotten pedicures. I think a pedicure I love I I've only gotten like two or three in my life,

7:25 but it's such a good It is heavenly. It's it's it's it has a bigger impact than it should.

7:31 It really makes you feel good. I got somebody was massaging my jaw muscles today

7:37 and I started crying about my dead grandmother. I don't know what's stored over here. Like there's a lot going on in here. Years of trauma right here.

7:46 Yes. Um, and so, uh, I I'm like, "Oh, I'm going to I need to like work this out."

7:52 I just read something and take it with a grain of salt. I read it online, but it was explaining why is the number was 67% of people have teeth loss nightmares or something with their teeth.

8:03 I do. So, it's the vast majority of people do. And the explanation is um, when you're very very stressed, you clench your jaws a lot. And then when you go to sleep, your brain's kind of figuring out why your muscles% that makes sense to me.

8:19 Yeah. So, it's all about like kind of clenching your jaw. And that's how it manifests itself at night, which is fascinating.

8:25 Yeah. I mean, I used to grind my teeth a lot. I have a mouth guard that I don't wear as often as I should. But honestly, um, massaging the jaw muscles has helped relieve that. I once got Botox in my jaw. You did about this cuz I was just it was just keeping me up at night. When I was watching your standup special, I was like really transfixed on what an incredible jawline you have, and I was wondering, has getting jacked changed your jawline?

8:50 It has. People think I got jaw implants or something. I have not. I have gotten no work done.

8:56 Um, all I did was I got I got Botox here and then they were like, "While you're here, you want to do your forehead, too?" And I did it and I will never do it again.

9:04 Why? Why not do it again? because I could not move my eyebrows and I have very expressive eyebrows and I had a job starting. I was going to act in something 2 months from then and I was just terrified. What if I can't do it? Because what happens is if you can't make the faces, you stop feeling those things as well. Yeah, they work both directions. And so that is really I mean, you know, I've gotten micro needling. I'm not a [ __ ] monster, but I I want to make this clear. I don't have jaw implants. I don't know how I guess I'll take it as a compliment.

9:34 Well, I'm in a similar I mean, you and I are in the exact same situation, which is when I saw your standup special and I saw that you you addressed all this. I was like, "Oh my god."

9:42 A I love that this is happening. You're doing it in public. I've had these fantasies. Like, do I try to address a lot of this stuff you address in the standup special?

9:50 You get some not to get into it. You get some real unfair nonsense sometimes. Well, thank you. Thank you.

9:57 You should get into it. Yeah. I I really do feel that. Okay. Well, great. But I will acknowledge I'll be watching with my children like Parenthood we watch with them and I'm looking at the TV show and I'm looking at it and I'm going, "Oh my god, dude. I look so different. It looks like I got some kind of jaw implant or something." There's something about your neck getting thicker. It changes your whole

10:19 It really does. You know, the body fat goes down. I think that just changes the shape of your face. I had a friend today send me a picture of us together from like 12 years ago and I was like, I look like a child.

10:30 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, right out of the gates, Monty, for um Night Thoughts, his standup special, he he camel starts with like okay let's

10:41 the muscles like they're not What do you What do you say? Like I say, don't be scared of the muscles. They can't hurt you. They're decorative.

10:50 Which is totally true. These muscles are decorative. They haven't They haven't done an honest work in their life.

10:55 You've used them for nothing. I've used them for nothing except moving weight up and down 10 times. That is all they can do.

11:01 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Have you ever had the thought like uh over the last 6 years or something when I add up how many hours I've spent exercising, I have to admit I could have got a PhD in something. I It's the most time I've committed to anything other than work.

11:16 Wow. It's for me it's going to be video games then work then working out probably. Yeah. But I I work out still every day. I love it. It's just I don't know how not to work out. It's just such a if I'm stressed like I had like a rough day 3 days ago, whatever, and I was like, I'm going to go work out because I cannot be around human beings right now,

11:36 right? And I'm almost well, no, I'm certain I will feel at least marginally better than I currently do if I go do that.

11:42 100%. Like the only things that I know that I can do physically that make me feel better every single time, working out and meditating. Those are the two things that I'm like

11:52 sometimes it like completely turns the day around. Sometimes it just helps three degrees, but it always 100% of the time helps.

12:00 Okay. We just we we got into this like three episodes ago. It was so timely that I I saw your standup thing cuz I was saying to Monica, "It's really hard to evaluate yourself from inside your

12:11 own eyes." Right. Of course. Yeah. But there are moments where I either see a picture or I see another dude that I can somehow acknowledge, oh that that's my exact size and I go, "Oh, I'm too big." Like I I might look stupid, but then I go, but I'm not going to change because I just these this is the result of this thing I have to do or I want to do or gives me however much

12:35 comfort or something about it. Like these are now just the results. I was aiming for something for a while, but then the thing happened and now I'm It is a confusing experience. Do you have that?

12:44 Yeah, I do. I think the way people see me is not how I see myself. You know, when I started doing standup again, Emily was like, "The biggest weirdest thing for you is going to be people experience it differently on stage." So, the [ __ ] that you used to do, you can't really do anymore. So, when I was like skinny and I would do like fake arrogance and now I can't do fake arrogance on stage cuz it comes off as real arrogance. So, I can play with that, you know? I can play with that because I do feel like I'm I'm very self-aware about this. I did have a casting director recently pull me aside and go like, "Hey, you got to you got to bring this down because it does it does limit

13:19 bring down the muscles and how did you take that? Like what what thoughts sprung off from there?"

13:27 Also, is it racist? Well, I mean, how much time you got? Like I think there's some element of that. I think it's weird because there was some of that reaction to me getting buffed and I

13:39 can't not think that that was an aspect of it that like you know stay in your lane kind of thing like that's not what we want from you kind of thing. I don't know. I can't guess to it but

13:50 it just feels like that's maybe a part of it. My reaction to the casting director saying that to me was at first it was panic because I was like one I was like have I missed out on parts because of this? I can think of one situation where I did

14:03 but I have started trying this month ago trying to do it and it's not doing cardio instead because the lifting of heavy weights does something for me like lifting big heavy things affects me makes me feel my body differently and I enjoy that feeling too much

14:23 and I'll argue cuz I do both so if I go hike six miles I don't for the rest of the day have this great feeling in my body. I have kind of a tired feeling. My back's a little sore. When I have a great workout, I feel the [ __ ] Schwarzenegger pump.

14:38 I was just going to say the AR pump. The pump is better than sex. It is like this for all for everything to like. It's like a little tight.

14:47 I love it. I'm addicted to it. Yeah. It's just the right amount. Like when you do a big workout and the next day you're like you got the doms, you know, you're like, "Oh, yeah." Last time we talked about Rabdo. Oh, that would be very

15:00 That's the dream. I've convinced myself I had it a couple times. I always think I have it and I'm not working out.

15:06 I think I have it. My favorite feeling is so I mean I don't know how your listeners this laying on a bench with a weight above my body that's like if I lose focus and drop this, I am going to the hospital,

15:20 right? So, it forces me to get out of my body. I'm not thinking about my problems or the thing I said wrong at the party or whether this thing is going to get picked up or how that audition whatever it is.

15:30 I have to be like I have to respect this weight right now cuz if I don't I'm going to

15:35 Makes you present. Yeah. Exactly. Which is I think for a lot of us is a big challenge. So that's what I get the most out of it is that I'm really right there staring at this thing.

15:45 Same with meditation. It's the it is the same thing. It's giving. You should get into motorcycle racing because that that too does that same thing where it's like you don't if you think about what you have to do tomorrow and train you're going to go off the track. It's too scary. Okay, we'll work on that.

15:58 It's one step too far. I'm going to add one thing that so I relate to all that. And then the other thing I I do like about it and why I can't I don't want to change my workout is um so much of your life is so subjective. And these are just straight numbers. It's like, okay, I do 15 sets of this weight and when I can't, I know I've declined and when I exceed that or it's easy, I go, "Oh, I know I'm good." Like, it's an objective evaluation of myself every single day.

16:23 That's such a huge part of it. All through the pandemic, the only way I could progress was in the gym. Nothing else was moving, but I would be like, I could lift this weight five times today. Last week, I could only lift it four times. Yeah.

16:35 So, it's really being like, "Oh, I have made progress in this thing and it is verifiable and objective." That's a big part of it.

16:43 And just the feeling of doing something that you didn't think you were capable of doing. I think a lot of us limit ourselves all the time with like I could do that, I can't do that. By the way, I love Maru coffee. Really good coffee.

16:55 We love it. We love it here. It's really good. I used to live right by it. ADHD?

17:00 No. Go ahead. I bet a little bit. I feel it a little bit. We can't get off the top. All right. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

17:07 Um but uh that that thing we limit ourselves more than I think a lot of times the situation limits us or our environment limits us.

17:15 Yes. So I think just being able to like go past what you conceive to be your limits in any aspect of your life helps you do that in other aspects of your life.

17:25 I agree. And then it just builds this like this kind of sustained confidence. Well, we'll get into all them.

17:32 I also have this thing. This is going to sound very arrogant. Yeah. When I'm really feeling myself and I'm like, you know, I've kept it tight, whatever. I like just how I look in the mirror.

17:44 I just like it. I like that, too. Cuz I, to your point, I put all these limits on myself. It's like all through my 20s, I was like, well, genetically, I don't have a six-pack. Some guys have them, which is true. There were kids in my school that just were jack

17:57 15year-olds with six packs for sure. because I didn't have that just out of the gate with no effort. I decided I genetically was incapable of that. So that that's one cool reward is like, "Oh, I'm more capable of more things." But moving through the world as a dude with muscles, the reaction from other dudes is almost universal. And I love it. I love that men touch my arm and they squeeze me. I just love it. This is so funny cuz I was telling Emily about this. I was like, "Guys will comment on my body all the time." And she's like, "They're hitting on you." I'm like, "They're not hitting on me. They're just commenting on my body." And then we were in New York for a few months, so you were out and about on the streets with more people. And she saw it happen like 35 times where just obviously like guys who are not hitting on me, commenting on very specific parts of my body. It's so primitive. And she was, it's so

18:51 primitive. It's also the only time at the gym with dudes is the only time men feel uh can be physically intimate with other men, you know, with touch like touching you or whatever. Like talking about, man, look at your your your quads. Yeah. Or like spotting someone when they're uh squatting, you know, like Exactly. It's the only time there. Yeah. It's like a standing spoon.

19:13 It's the only time men feel comfortable being physically intimate. Wrestling or some other sports. All sports in a sense are like homoerotic. We're so starved for any kind of affection.

19:24 You are. What would happen if if that got cured for all men that it was like it's fine. You guys can just touch each other and hug and be affectionate. Like so much would be fixed.

19:36 You're totally right. I think it was I think first of all been married almost 20 years, but people were like, "Did you get more attention from girls when you got buff?" I was like, "No, more from guys.

19:44 I haven't any girls." Zero change in how women react. No, it's just have the opposite question. Did Emily feel like we got to talk about this? Because we had someone write in. Well, Dax did a show with his best friend Aaron and I was on it and someone wrote in and said like, "My partner, my husband is starting to get like really, really, really buff and going to the gym all the time and drinking protein shakes and doing all this and I'm uncomfortable with it." Well, one thing I want to ask is was this woman upset about how buff he was getting or how much time he and energy he was devoting to getting buff?

20:22 Was it that the obsession? That's what we debated. So, it was just a write in. So, we couldn't ask any follow-up questions,

20:28 right? Cuz the obsession I get being, you know, being like, "Hey, this is too much, you know."

20:33 Well, that was my point. It's like, is he not available for his duties as a father, as a husband, as a anything? If that's an issue, then that's that's obvious. If it's I don't know this person, I'm afraid that this new version of them isn't going to love me. I can relate to that and I have a lot of sympathy for that. But there's so many reasons, I guess.

20:51 Yeah. For Emily, I she did say she's like, "If we went on a first date and you were this buff, I'd think there was something really wrong with you."

20:59 Um, just cuz she knows me and has known me for over a decade that this happened. She was like, "That's not going to come out. That's like

21:05 I really It's so green, dude. We do. What are you drinking? Straight chlorophyll.

21:13 It's 22 oz of wheat. We just converting sunlight into food. It's a yummy matcha.

21:19 Oh boy. Really? I don't like matcha. It feels like falling face first. Was getting too much attention.

21:23 People think it's grass. I think it tastes like gross grass. Everyone's talking about Kum's muscles and not Dax. He's getting upset.

21:30 What was that bad of an interview? Is like every time it was about you, I just set myself on fire.

21:33 Oh my gosh. No, but this is interesting. I think Emily understood that it meant that I've always since I was a little kid I was like I want to be I wanted to be a certain way and I wasn't and now I get to be the way I wanted to be and there's a lot to unpack there but

21:49 I think for her she always trusted me to go on whatever journey I wanted. Now there are times where she's like I like the way you look right now and it's generally not like the biggest and most cut I've been. It's almost never that. It's like when I'm a little bit softer. She's like, I think to me this is the ideal like male physique that I want.

22:09 And that's how I know it's time to diet. That's my cue to immediately. Yeah. I'm not trying to impress you, honey. I'm trying to impress other men. I already got you.

22:20 I just wonder when you're allowed to say to your partner, you know, this is a bigger question. Like you marry someone or you fall in love with someone and then they change. People change over time. And it say

22:39 how would you feel about that if someone didn't like their partner gaining weight or something?

22:43 Exactly. No, I'm I'm including all of you. Yeah. Now that's very tricky. Do it. And is it allowed if if you're hearing someone say gaining weight, you'd be like absolutely not. They are not allowed to say that. They have to accept you. But what's funny is both attempts to address that would be veiled under the same thing, which would be health.

23:04 Yes. Sure. Concern trolling. Oh, is that what it's called? Concern trolling. It's called concern trolling. We're like, "Are you okay? You're looking a little skinny." Or whatever. Internet is full of it.

23:14 Interesting. And so I've heard like um you know, people try to act like what I'm doing is somehow not healthy.

23:20 Well, obviously there's a way to take it where it's not healthy, but I'm sure you look very healthy. nothing about you is like, "Oh, I'm concerned for this person." The one thing that I do think about and struggle with as both of us are public figures is when I was a little kid and I would see buff men, it would upset me that I didn't look like that. And now, am I contributing to men feeling bad about themselves? Little teenage boys feeling bad about themselves because the decision I made was very personal. But I do have to acknowledge the fact that as a public figure, I am out there and people do see, you know, you Google me, the first five pictures are all shirtless. Is that making someone feel bad about themselves?

24:03 That's interesting. Can I counter that? Sure, please. You're a brilliant improv artist. You're an hysterical comedian. If someone's watching you do comedy that aspires to do comedy and can't do it as good as you and they feel like [ __ ] should you stop being really funny? I mean, literally, should you limit your potential in any

24:21 domain because it might make someone else feel bad? Should you write less good if you're a [ __ ] author? No.

24:29 That's fair. That's crazy. You can't diminish your your own self out of fear of what the fallout might be. You might also inspire that might be 10% of the reaction. And 90% of people might go on a health journey that makes them live 10 years longer. I've had a lot of people say that to me, but and for me I I always say like just

24:48 be healthy of course and just be the version of you that you can like like and that has often that doesn't have it that doesn't have to do anything with how you look or whatever obviously be healthy that's good but

25:01 learning to love yourself I think is more important than anything and for me sadly I have been on this journey of being like I like myself and part of that has had to do with my body transformation. It's a little unavoidable and I wish it wasn't part of it, but I know it is.

25:18 Well, listen, you're exacting control and outcome on a world that is very hard to exact control and outcome. So, that's very it's very um satisfying.

25:27 I have a real like a control thing. So, this really like I sort of have an obsessive personality and I'm very lucky in that I know it just doesn't go towards like stuff that would ruin my life.

25:39 You're not addicty. not addicty but but but I feel it when I'm gambling. I feel that demon I feel it. So I have to be like very careful gambling like I can't really play sometimes. You know I don't really play sports but if I'm like in any kind of competitive situation like I start to have that come out you know where it gets like awkward like hey dude we're just playing a [ __ ] board game.

25:59 How are you at your video games? Are you yelling at people on the headsets and stuff?

26:03 No. Are you anonymous when you play in the Do you play? I don't play online anymore.

26:07 I only play with friends and I play with Emily. Emily and I play together. And with Emily, I've learned to sort of

26:14 cuz she's like, "You cannot talk to me like this. You are, we are still married."

26:19 Can you think of something you said to her at one point in the heat of a um video game battle?

26:24 Whenever I go, you got to She's like, "You can't say you gota to me anymore." Like, "Honey, you got to We'll just playing this game right now." and and she's very good and we're we can hang, you know, but sometimes we play when we're we're high.

26:35 Yeah, sure. And she'll be like she'll be like, "Where are you?" And I'm like, "If you hit up on the controller,

26:42 you got to know by now." And she's like, "Got to stop saying got to." I'm like, "Honey, you've been playing this game for three [ __ ] months."

26:48 You're separated. Yeah, I do get that. Short fuse. It's just, you know, it's an intense situation. The stakes are high. I'm trying to save the [ __ ] planet right now. That's right.

26:59 I need you to know how to look up the map. Yeah. The game isn't called Get groceries.

27:03 Exactly. It's Call of Duty. Yeah, it's Call of Duty, man. We're saving the world from the Nazis right now. I can't teach you how to like unfold your map every 5 minutes.

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28:51 That's turboax.com. Only available with Turboax full service experts, real-time updates, and iOS mobile app. Okay. So, in my my dream world of the structure of this, like I'd love to explore how we feel about it, and then I want to confront how other people feel as its own little piece. Um,

29:13 I love that. But to continue with it a little bit, cuz this takes up a lot of my thought and and I love checking in with you. I love talking to you about this because very few people want to get into it like

29:23 Yeah. Yeah. Danler one time told me and I'll never forget it. I had gotten in really good shape for this movie 20 years ago with Kristen called uh When in Rome. I played an underwear model and I had gotten in good shape and he came up to me. He's like, "Buff isn't funny, buddy. Just remember." And I was like, "God." Right. And then we all know the the the carrot top as a trope, right?

29:44 I've heard that a lot. I disagree with it. But what is Carrot Top as a trope? Carrot top. He looks like a He's a for real bodybuilder. Like he looks jacked.

29:55 And people bring him up constantly like don't be a Carrot Topper. You just hear Carrot Top a lot when you got

30:01 Yeah, I know. You hear Carrot Top a lot from any reason. And I'm saying to the person, not anything about Carrot Top.

30:07 Do you think Carrot Top got less funny when he got buffed or did you just never think Keratop was funny?

30:12 There you go. Yeah. I mean I think Yeah. What do you think of that? How's that? How's that? How do they

30:18 There's a lot to this. Well, I was going to say his his slacks are they could come up a little bit.

30:23 They could They need to come up a I don't need to know that the uh the carpet matches the drips.

30:28 The mom's pubis is on full display, but I understand he wanted to show off that the the arrows, but he got carried away.

30:34 Now, here's the thing. The arrows. First of all, very nice body. It's not from me because yes, it's too um it's the hugging the corner of the building thing again. But I think it I think it's nice. Now I do understand looking at this for the first time. I can understand what they mean when they say it's not how can that guy be funny. It's because whoever created this body, not God, like who did this to themselves is taking things very seriously. You have to take life very seriously to look like that.

31:15 That's an interesting point and that's the only good point I've heard about this exact thing. However, John Cena is very very funny and like super jacked

31:26 and I think you can s take certain parts of yourself seriously and not other parts. Like I truly don't think

31:34 I'm less funny because I'm buff now. It doesn't really because I think you have to always have a level of self-awareness. Like he has to understand that that's a little bit ridiculous

31:44 a lot. Yeah. I like when I had my p when I put my pictures out, I understood that it was a little bit ridiculous. I think it I understand it's a little bit ridiculous that I am like Jack now. So I think you have to have that level of awareness.

31:59 Yeah. It's when you take every yourself too seriously. I think that is the death of comedy.

32:04 Yeah. Yeah. And I think the other thing that is the death of comedy is people wanting to be cool.

32:09 Exactly. Comedians can be cool, but someone who's like wants to be cool and a comedian, I I don't have any time for that.

32:16 I will say though, what one aspect that is true is generally comedy works best when you are put upon.

32:23 Sure. Low status. Low status. Exactly. So when like you know if Keratop's stand there like that and then his boss is denigrating him and he's a foot and a half shorter and is a mess.

32:35 Yeah. You kind of don't give a [ __ ] You're like, "Oh, if he wanted he'd crush it."

32:38 But you know what? Like did you watch Peacemaker not to go back to John Cena again?

32:42 Yes. He is the jackass guy in there. He's like a superhero. But he is put upon the whole time.

32:47 That's true. But it required people with superpowers to out status him in a in a way. And he's so dumb. His his stupidity is his Achilles,

32:57 right? That is that that that helps. So yes, we could play like big dumb idiots

33:02 like DC Cab. I love it. Really fun to play dumb. think I mean you could but you'd really have to suspend your disbelief. That's another I mean we know you're not a big dumb idiot.

33:13 Are you saying John Cena is a big dumb idiot? We I love John Cena. Seems like I love John Cena. We had a great guest. Go check out that episode.

33:22 So talented. You played a lot of dumb idiots at the beginning of your career. Yeah, you're very good at it. I mean Idiocracy that's such a great performance in your real

33:30 dumb drama. You played a lot of them. I specialize in dummies. Yeah. But I bet now

33:36 it'd be less fun. No, no, I bet it would be harder because you now have shown yourself as your real self that is smart and you have comedy specials that are smart. Like people know you as smart. It might be hard to be like, he's acting dumb.

33:53 I think acting dumb is a difficult thing and a few people who are smart can do it. Adam Sandler is one of them. He's obviously very smart. Did you guys see Jay Kelly?

34:02 Not yet. No, he's so good in it. Really? I heard. Yeah. And not a dumb idiot at all. And if you know him, he's not a dumb idiot at all, but he's good at playing dumb idiots. The other Have you guys seen this movie called Twinless?

34:14 It's a small movie came out this year. Uh this um uh actor, director, writer, wrote it, stars in it. And Dylan O'Brien, do you guys know who Dylan O'Brien is?

34:25 Dylan O'Brien is a phenomenal actor. If you look him up, you'll be like, "Oh, that guy. He's like, you know, young guy. He's like 30.

34:30 Very smart guy. Always plays smart guys. He plays a dumb guy in this and it's an incredible performance and he's like subtly dumb. He's not like comedy dumb. He's just like

34:40 dumb in ways people that you know, you know. Yeah. And so I was talking to him about it. I was like, "How were you able to do this?" Because that is something I think about a lot. I'd love to play a dumb guy.

34:52 How do you do it? Um it's a very tricky thing to to be able to do. What was your trick to doing it?

34:57 So I think the key is you have to think you're much smarter than everyone you're talking to. Interesting.

35:02 You have to be condescending as a dumb guy. Uhhuh. Like Fredo's like, "Are you fucking," you know, everything was like, "Are you stupid?" Like he thought everyone was stupid

35:11 and that he was a genius. Right. It's the Dunning Crown. Yes. Oh, that's funny. That's a good

35:20 The less you know, the more you think you know. It's like what they say to act drunk, you have to try and act sober,

35:25 which that one eludes me a little bit. I've had to play drunk and I hate it. I've I've played drunk a few times and I think one of the keys I learned was what kind of drunk is this? Is it some is it angry drunk? Is it happy drunk? Is it stupid drunk? And then you lean into that. So if it's happy, you lean into the happy beyond like any kind of reasonable thing. Do you know who does a really good job? Evan Peters in um is it is he in mayor of East Town?

35:50 Oh, I love that. Is that the show he was in? There's a show where he plays drunk in one scene where he hits on his partner and it's a really remarkable scene because he goes through every kind of drunk person which is like the drunk person who's down on themselves, the drunk person who has too much confidence, the drunk person who's too sad, too. Yes. In all in one scene, you see him do all those different kinds of drunk. And it's a really really great performance. I think I just attacked it with fear. Like, oh god, I got to do this [ __ ] thing.

36:22 That's the thing I've learned in my relationship with Emily is that all the stuff that I hide from her, like, I'm sad, I'm scared. Often the anxiety of starting a new job, right, that was just mine. If I say it out loud, it makes it real,

36:35 I say it to her and it actually takes its power away. That's the biggest thing I've learned. One, I do it as a way of apology. Like, hey, I'm in a weird place. I'm starting this job on Tuesday and I'm like a little bit nervous. Pretty certain they [ __ ] up by casting me.

36:49 Yes, they feeling today. All I have to do is get to rap before they find out. Every set I go to, I think of Eric Stoultz getting fired from Back to the Future.

36:58 That dude shot six weeks. He shot six weeks and then they [ __ ] fired him. And he's collecting his boss as he's walking out. Everybody else has a job.

37:08 Oh yeah. The person who plays the the grip has a job. Also, you're the only one who doesn't have a job.

37:14 Of 200 people of 200 people, you're the main guy and you're the only one who doesn't have a job.

37:19 No, that's rough. And good for him, the fact that he can come back and be in Pulp Fiction and be like [ __ ] so stellar.

37:25 Yeah. Um, okay. Now, let's talk about the reaction. So, what happened was I did a I talk about this in the specials, but do you know Michael Rosenbomb? Do you guys know?

37:36 I know him very very well. So, I did his podcast and we talked about me. That's where it all came from is Rosen Bombs.

37:42 Yeah, it came from Rosen Bomb's podcast and he was like, he felt so bad about it and he was like I was like, "Dude, honestly, this is a [ __ ] gift. Thank you. I know how to end my special now." You know, I didn't know.

37:54 So, it all started from that. Monica doesn't know. He was talking about the heartbreak of Eternals and it and it sending him to therapy and

38:01 and people got there was a big reaction backlash to, you know, and I understand them saying like the privilege of the bad review send you to therapy and I talk about for 15 minutes. My god.

38:13 Yeah, it was a lot. It's also, you know, men feel weird about going to therapy. All the there's a lot wrapped up in it. Um I'll I'll give you all the gory details. Um my pictures, I put those pictures out December of 2019 while I was shooting Eternals. I was going into Christmas. We was going to shoot till February. But I was like,

38:30 I don't know. This might be the only time I look like this. I got two weeks off and like pastries in London are really [ __ ] good. So, I don't know if I'm ever going to look like this. So, I asked the trainer and I was like, hey,

38:40 get some baby oil. I'll get a razor. Let's get these pictures going, you know? Cuz I don't know if I'm ever going to look like it could be the last time of your entire life.

38:46 Yeah. So, I wanted these pictures. I did it. I put the pictures out. Initially, the response was really, really, really good. But then what happened was um in 2020 the pandemic happened in March, right? End of that year, my wife and I took it very very seriously. We didn't leave the house. She's got a immune condition. So I was in a real bad place.

39:07 Stills. Stills adult onset stills disease. And now she's been diagnosed with another thing which turns out is probably a combination of those two. A lot of things we're finding out not to this is a whole ADHD. We're finding out a lot about autoimmune diseases because of research into HIV. Because when you have HIV and your immune system starts [ __ ] up. Yeah. So now there's a lot of research into this and there's a lot of like therapies for this that are way better. So Emily's on a new medication that has changed our lives. So then we're we're in all the time and on Christmas we got this gingerbread house.

39:44 We made it and we I It's just a picture of me sitting next to a gingerbread house that my wife took and we hadn't seen a human being in a long time. Right.

39:52 Yeah. Now it's January 2021. And I think part of what happened is people were like, "Well, 2020 sucks. 2020 sucks. 2021 would be better. Now we're in 2021 and there's no vaccine in sight and we still can't leave the [ __ ] house." So I think particularly January 2021, people were in a real [ __ ] place and spraying it everywhere. I think I was one of the victims of this. Yeah,

40:14 I was watching The Crow with Brandon Lee. RIP. Yes. I taken an edible. I was high out of my mind watching this movie that I used to love as a kid. Watching it now being like, "Do I still love it?"

40:25 Yeah. And a friend of mine texted me. He's like, "Hey, I'm so sorry about what's going on online."

40:29 First of all, no. Public service announcement to all friends. Never do that. No. Okay. So, you post this picture.

40:35 I posted this picture a few weeks before. So, my friend text me. I was like, "What are you talking about?" And he was like, "Oh, oh, you don't know." Oh. So, I go on Twitter or whatever and there are literally literally 10,000 responses and it's that picture of me and I'm like obviously just like smiling with the thing. I'm I'm high and you could see that my the way I'm sitting like I just look like I have a big jawline right?

40:56 Okay. And it's just people making fun of my appearance. Like literally 10,000 comments. Oh, it [ __ ] destroyed me cuz as a kid growing up, I was very like uh insecure about my looks and I've done all this work to move away from that and this made me feel like a little kid. I'm watching this movie high out of my mind and this is happening and there were two full days of it sort of trending on Twitter and it was like a big thing that people were just happy dunking on the way I looked physically.

41:26 Yes. Um gifts and memes were going around and all this stuff. Again, in the grand scheme of things, probably not a huge thing, but I was very aware of it. And so, I would tell Emily every day, I was like, I would check in with her. I was like, "I'm not going to go on Twitter." I'd be like, "Is it still happening?" She's like, "Yeah, it's still happening. Is it still happening?" "Yeah, it's still happening." And I remember it took like two full days of that cuz I think people were frustrated and needed to take it out

41:48 someplace. So, that started with that one specific picture and then it went on to pictures of me being buffed.

41:55 It set off a cottage industry. It set off a cottage industry calling me grotesque and monstrous. I talk about all this in the special now.

42:02 So that was like the big backlash January 2021 and I think like all these things it has more to do with what they're going through than what I'm going through. But I really felt very like

42:12 singled out and attacked for that whole time. Again, people have much bigger problems than this. But for me, it was

42:18 a pretty intense thing. Yes. So that was like the backlash to my transformation that ended up happening a little bit over a year after the initial pictures came out. Interesting. And you were also dealing I'm sure with Had Eternals come out yet?

42:33 No. Eternals then came out later. Still at least you have that positive thing in your mind.

42:38 Dude, that's basically your safety net. Eternals kept me going all through pandemic where I was like, "Wait for this [ __ ] thing to come out. We'll talk about this body in 3 months."

42:49 100% the entire time I was like, "Wait till this comes out." You know? So, and and part of that it's totally my fault. that put too much into this thing that I should not have put anything into. I had a great time making that movie.

43:02 Meaning you put too many expectations. Too many expectations. It's going to change my career.

43:07 K. We've had so many of the same moments. It's really wild. It's really wild thinking like you're from Pakistan, saw a guy get stabbed to death in the street when you were a kid. And I'm shot

43:15 shot. Sorry. Seemingly there'd be no parallels, but like I similarly had directed chips. It tested through the roof. They commissioned a sequel before it came out to write it,

43:28 dude. And it was you and uh he's so good. And I got hired immediately by Warner Brothers to take over Scooby-Doo. I'm getting asked to come fix some scripts and maybe direct another thing. And I I go, "Ah, the next 10 years of my life, I'm going to be writing and directing." And it just I'm positive of that for like a year and a half to the to the degree that's like it's it's in my DNA that my identity is I'm a writer director and I'm gonna do this for the next decade,

43:56 dude. And I'm um and even greedily I'm like yeah now get this on this and this on this. I've already like I've I've modeled out how much money I'm going to make in the next 10 years.

44:05 That's exactly how I was. And so in one Friday I find out the 10ear game plan is gone.

44:12 Did that movie not do well? No. Okay. Like, well, certainly the sequel's not getting made. Um, you know, all these other things and meanings like they just shrivel up.

44:21 You know, what we both did was build up this thing that we want safety. It is truly

44:27 I want safety. A devastating experience when that happened. It's my fault. It's I'm taking full responsibility. No one should feel bad for me. I did plan out my entire life based on something. And that really changed on a Friday afternoon, which I think a lot of people suffer setbacks, but I they're pretty dramatic in our business.

44:46 That is pretty dramatic because it does. People's lives change overnight. You had signed on to do six Marvel movies.

44:52 I signed on to do six Marvel movies, a video game, and a theme park, right? Yes. So, of course, you thought the next decade of your life,

44:58 I was like, the next decade of my life, I'm going to be doing those movies. And then between, you know, one for you, one for me, I'll do like little indies. People think when they hear that they understandably think like oh boohoo you won't have that thing but what they're missing what's what the pain and hurt is like

45:12 my safety just vanished. It's not about being famous or whatever. It's just like I knew what I was going to do for 10 years as if I were a physician that knew I could do my job for the next 10 years and I found out I can't.

45:22 Especially for us, you know, it's tricky. One, I mean, we're getting to live our dreams and suddenly our dreams are getting bigger and now I'm going to get to do this and this and this and it's like it's self- serving but it really is. You're like, "The purpose of my life is to make stuff and now I'm going to get to do it." How [ __ ] exciting. And it happens with comedy guys, I think, specifically where, you know, you hit and then you have some, you get a window, right? And sometimes that window closes and when that window closes, you don't know if it's opening up again.

45:51 And uh it happens to actors, too. I mean, look at Brendan Frasier, right? Like for so many years he did it and then he won a [ __ ] Oscar.

45:58 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But that's rare. But that's why we love it so much cuz it is so brutal and you generally get shown the door it never reopens.

46:05 Exactly. Exactly. It is brutal. I mean, we've picked a very difficult business to be in and a very vulnerable. I mean, you're naked. You know, if you write something, you direct something, you put it out there. You're like, "Here, this is the inside of my body. What will you do with it?" And people are like, "We don't like it.

46:23 We will stab your spleen." Well, it's also like people forget that actors are very fragile. It's what you're draw. It's actually what makes an actor good.

46:34 Prerequisite. We're very sensitive. So sensitive. And it's it's a part of what makes acting doable. But then yeah, then you're also you become famous and people don't give a [ __ ]

46:46 No, they don't. And they think it's okay to tear you down and whatever. I understand.

46:50 I think we're coming from the same place. I don't I don't want one person to feel bad for me. No,

46:55 you cannot feel bad for someone, but you also don't have to be a part of hurting them.

47:01 Well, that's become part of it now is this like dunk session that goes on where people get very excited. Again, poohoo actors. But it is interesting. You're exactly right. Most actors are very sensitive. It took me years to like understand that. And it wasn't until a few years ago that I was like, "Oh, I've been like a I was a sensitive 14year-old and now I'm in a sensitive 40 whatever year old, you know, The only question mark I had when I heard the story is like how Emily was a practicing therapist for like nine years or something or six years or

47:33 Yeah, I would say for six years. She in Chicago, she did New York. She did it. That's it.

47:38 Okay. North Carolina, then Chicago, then New York. Okay, great. But you were married to a therapist.

47:42 Yeah, in the beginning. Yeah. So, the notion that it took you so long. It was after Eternals came out like like I said in that thing, you know,

47:50 and you're like, I'm never going to work again. I just realized I was like it wasn't even really that it wasn't external circumstance. I understood it's my reaction to the external circumstance that's [ __ ] me up

48:02 and I'm hurting myself by thinking the same thing over and over and over and over. I remember

48:07 being on this flight. We This might be too much information, but we're on a flight cuz we're doing like a world press tour for Eternals, right? Being on this flight in first class, laying in the bed. Yes. I've got Wi-Fi and I'm just laying there refreshing rotten tomatoes over and over. And I remember in that moment being like, "This is not good for me. This is horrible." By all accounts, you know, I'm in this like awesome bed. I just ate a full three course meal on a [ __ ] airplane flying to London

48:37 and I ate. You've made yourself miserable. This is the most miserable I've ever

48:40 Yeah. You took this chance to feel great and you made yourself miserable. Um, what's great is even though you're not an addict, you can at least you've experienced what it's like when you're driving to the dealer's house and you're about to relapse, which is like this is a bad idea. This is a bad idea. This is a bad idea.

48:54 Never I know exactly the feeling you're talking about before you've made the mistake where you know you're about to

49:01 but you're in route to do it. Wow. What is that like? Can I ask you what is that like? Because I I think I know that feeling.

49:09 Yes. Well, it's the, you know, the frontal the frontal lobe is going, "Don't do this. It's going to end in four days." You know, the the wreckage and then there's this um body surge of endorphins, I guess, emanating from your reptilian brain that's just like it's giving you a little hit of what's going to come. And it's like this battle between this very visceral feeling and then this intellectual debate. And for me, just that surge of of of endorphins wins. You know, you go, I'm going to be really disappointed in myself, but I also in 15 minutes, I'm not going to give a [ __ ] about that disappointment for a very short period of time.

49:47 No, it all, you know. Yeah. Never works. That's where the shame comes in after because then you knew better.

49:53 Yeah. You're like, I knew this was going to happen and I still did it and I can't stop.

49:57 That is so powerless. When you're driving to the dealers and you're like, I know I shouldn't do this, but you're going. Do were you ever able to turn around?

50:06 I have accomplished that maybe three or four times. It's been more that I'm at the bar. I decide I'm already there. I'm with friends.

50:21 You're at the bar. I'm at the bar. And I decide, you know what? There's no way I'm going to go through every Christmas without getting buzzed again. I I make this, you know, these really over-the-top declarations like, am I really going to live the rest of my life without getting buzzed at a bar at Christmas with the Christmas lights on? You know, it's like this is some essential right of mine that's been taken.

50:38 And then I've started to build the the case and I have been able to leave there.

50:48 But when I've if I've gotten in my car and I'm in route to the dealer, I'm going I'm going to

50:54 It's already decided. It's getting in the car. Oh my god, that is really interesting.

50:58 So like when you open up the phone I know I'm all it's already you're already you're in the car on the way

51:05 but it's weird cuz it's a negative feeling but it does feel like a certain kind of self harm that I had gotten addicted to. There was an addiction to feeling that hurt, that anger at myself and everyone around me. It's like it is like a very living feeling, you know, it's a very alive feeling

51:23 because and now this is another fun thing that comes from AA which is self argrandisement and self-pity are the exact same sides of

51:32 agree more. So like what what feels like oh poor me is really indulgent in self arrandising. It's like a you're too important in the planet. No one gives a [ __ ] about your movie. No one knows like all you've elevated all this stuff

51:45 and and so that was helpful for me to connect like well I would never be self arandizing.

51:51 I'm too ashamed to do that. I'll hide that even if I think that. But for some reason I'll explore self-pity

51:58 and victimhood and I and once I connected like those are the same [ __ ] thing bro I I I was able to stop or largely curb the self-pity cycle. this, you know, after all that stuff and going through therapy and stuff and I and I talk about this in the special. For me, the biggest project of the last few years has been um

52:15 trying to divorce my experience of making something from the result, from the reaction to it, right? Ideally, I walk off set and never think about it again. Now, it's [ __ ] impossible cuz a year and a half from now, you got to be doing interviews talking about this thing. You know, my standup special is not that because I really feel like that I've made that I fully control it and I'm like,

52:34 you live and die by it. I live and die by it. With this, I'm living dying by other people's mistakes as well.

52:39 Yes. And and so I've been doing work to like cut cut off from that, but and now this is gonna sound like me like showing off. A couple years ago, I got nominated for an Emmy.

52:48 Yeah. And the amount of happy that it made me. I was with my I just happened to be with my parents. I had not expected it at all. I woke up in the morning at 11:00 in New Jersey at my parents house in my pajamas about to eat a delicious breakfast and I have 100 text messages on my phone and I'm like, "Guys, I just got nomin."

53:04 The amount that it made me happy. I was like, "Oh, I'm still stuck in this. This is still a trap." I mean, all day I was just replaying. This is so embarrassing. The moment when I saw I'm replaying like scrolling, I'm replaying saying it to my parents and I understood like, "Oh, I'm still stuck in that same [ __ ] thing." Yeah,

53:22 I that is probably the hardest part of being healthy about this experience in my in my opinion is turning down the praise

53:32 cuz you can't you can't take the praise and turn down the negativity. You either have to turn the whole thing off

53:37 and turning it off is impossible. I think you you you have to turn the volume down the best you can because

53:42 I don't think Jonah would mind me saying this but I was texting Jonah about us about to have um Phil Stuts on his therapist and we were going to have him on because I saw the doc and I was so moved by the doc.

53:53 Yeah, I saw the doc and I sent him this text going like, you know, [ __ ] dude, that moment where you have the image of yourself, your shadow, this little kid

54:03 and and and Stuts is like he wants you to bring him along on this fun ride. Yeah.

54:07 And I was like, "Oh my god." Yeah. So, I was texting with him and I was detecting this reservation

54:15 from his side about this praise I was giving. Ah. And then he just said it and I thought it was so [ __ ] cool. He's like, "Dude, I love this, but I really, weirdly, this is as bad for me as you saying."

54:26 Very good self-awareness. Yes. And I'm like, "Dude, I strive to turn down praise when I don't see it in the immediate future."

54:35 It's so true. Oh, he's exactly right. It's the same thing. But you know what's hard in our business? The hard thing is praise or bad reviews, whatever.

54:46 It's not just how we deal with it. It does affect our careers. It really does have a practical impact. I make a movie, it makes money, suddenly I get to do more movies. I make a movie, gets bad reviews, doesn't make money. Window starts closing. You know, so that's the hard thing for me to like reconcile that it's not just my reaction to it. My life is practically affected by the reaction.

55:10 Absolutely. But you also you're forgetting that you're capable of making your own stuff. You're actually in a rare group that's capable of making their own stuff that can do shows. Can you can get back to you in control and you and you should do that maybe more.

55:27 I totally should 100%. And I was talking to Mike Burbigley and I was like, you know, you and I kind of went in a way in completely opposite paths. He had his first movie that was a big success. And he was like, I'm just going to keep doing this. And I went and started doing other people's stuff.

55:41 Yeah. Right. But I will say too, I think the division in my head has to be like, yes, one is a practical outcome of like how much what will be my income and what will be my opportunity. And that's true. That needs to be observed. But the stuff that's hurting me and making me ruminate is,

56:02 am I lovable if I'm a failure? Am I lovable if I'm not spectacular? Am I lovable if I'm not funny? Am I lovable if I'm in bad shape?

56:11 Am I lovable? Am I worthy of your attention and and being seen by you if I'm not spectacular? I just talked to my mom this morning about this. Like, that's my hurdle. I don't think I'm worth observing unless I'm spectacular.

56:23 I think that's so true. I think the biggest thing we have to learn is that like you inherently are worthy of love.

56:28 It's so hard and it's so hard. It's everyone's hurdle. It's not just you or you or actors or it's everyone is doing everything they can to get the most love.

56:39 And just like that you are worthy of love. You don't need to be spectacular. That's a whole sentence, man. You are worthy of love. Period. I I'm only now learning that I need to lean into the fear, you know, like I've all my life been running away from pain and running away from fear and working out taught me like I got to chase the pain and now I'm realizing like I got to chase the fear. The things that scare me are the things I need to

57:08 I really need to do. Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare. Okay, now I want to theorize because I had some takeaways. Um, again, I can't put too fun of a point on the fact that I really loved your special. I mean, it's called it's called Night Thoughts.

57:34 And boy, did you describe three of my seven nights a week of sleep? Monica's heard it ad nauseium.

57:42 I think I have no anxiety. I don't have waking anxiety in general. I go to bed 3:00 a.m. Time to [ __ ] think about something I don't care about once I'm awake.

57:52 Exactly. Can I give one joke of yours away because I think Monica will love it.

57:56 He wakes up and he writes down his stupid night thoughts and one of them is why do white people get all colors of eyes and hair and everybody else only gets black eyes and black hair.

58:06 That's a very fair thought. Black people, Asian people, Hispanic people, we just get black eyes and black hair.

58:12 I know it is crazy when you point it out. Crazy. What is going on? I hate it. It's not

58:18 just adding to the unfairness. It's insane. Now I'm going to be thinking about I'm sorry. I just was like that joke has gotten a weird reaction a couple of times.

58:28 Oh, it has. Yeah. Like the comedy store, somebody got angry at me and they got kicked out.

58:33 Everybody needs to relax. Did a white person get mad or Yeah, sure. Of course, sure.

58:39 Sure. It was a white person. What does Joyce say? The um the caucassity. Yeah. Like the audacity of

58:45 Caucasian audacity. What was his objection? He was saying that's racist. I was like, he was very drunk.

58:53 Okay. He was very drunk. He was playing in that singing. He was like, "Yeah, this is a racist version. I'm drunk.

58:59 This is the night. This is the night when I'm drunk. I got late in the night." And he probably regretted it.

59:03 Yeah. Yeah. This is late in the I don't know if he regretted it, but he was like the later the the security guy who kicked him out was like he was trying to connect to me, but like that guy's [ __ ] racist, right? And oh my god,

59:14 they was like, "No, get the [ __ ] out." Like that cuz the security guy was white. Yeah.

59:19 Wow. I'm so so glad you watched it, dude. I loved it watching it. Yeah. Um and when you get into the reaction, you kind of synthesize the reaction um into five really common threads that people were barking at you online about. And I've given this a ton of thought because I have a different version of it unrelated to muscles, which is I've been with Kristen for 20 years and there have been hundreds of articles about why is she with this guy list of top 10 hot girls with ugly guys.

59:52 So disgusting. I've been dealing with that for less now since the podcast, but for the first 12 13 years we were together, there were hundreds of these lists of ugly guys with hot girls and I'm always on it. the worst. And my reaction was like, a, I'm so hurt and insecure when you say that. Then I'm defensive and arrogant. I'm like, go meet my other girlfriends. They've all been hot. [ __ ] you. Right. I have this defensiveness.

1:00:16 Yeah, sure. And then when I calm down, I have this I really get into it. I'm like, you know what's so interesting? I know what's going on. I think I know what's going on, which is like, and it just beat into us in in elementary school and in school, which is like there's strata. you're born into them. Someone shant migrate north or south. It's disruptive to this whole system that we have been

1:00:42 formatted in. And so I thought cuz again, primarily girls aren't saying Kristen's with this ugly guy. Guys are saying "Yeah

1:00:51 Kristen's with this ugly guy. They're threatened." And I think shouldn't that be encouraging? Even if that's your conclusion, like this four got this 10. Isn't that life affirming and in and positive? Like, doesn't that say you could achieve anything? Like, I I thought it would be comforting to dudes like me that are normal.

1:01:09 I think it's the opposite. And I think that was some of the reaction to me getting buffed.

1:01:12 Thank you. Cuz that's I I I mapped on that. I get the I get the muscles thing less than you do. I certainly see in the comments dudes going so [ __ ] roided out. This dude's so roided. Always if I'm with Kristen in a photo, then the guys come out hard. This roided out [ __ ] For the record, I'm not on steroids. Unless you count testosterone as a steroid, which I guess maybe technically it is. I am on testosterone. Yeah. Yeah. But I'm not on the other great ones. I'd love to be on.

1:01:39 If I was going to die in a month, I would be on all of them. Yeah. Yeah. So, I get it that but but I didn't get it at the same way you did. And I think it's a little bit because I'm 6'2 and then maybe white like you guys were talking about that. I think that's part of it for me is, you know, obviously in Bollywood guys are Super Jack and his fine, but here it's like you're a nerd or you're like

1:02:00 Yeah. What was that [ __ ] incredible movie that took over Netflix? I loved Triple R. Those guys are [ __ ] beef cakes.

1:02:06 Well, I mean, when I went to my trainer, I was like, I want to look like this guy. It was

1:02:10 from Triple R. No, this was a guy who's a big star still. His name is Ritik Rashian. He's like super jacked. He's a great actor.

1:02:16 Okay. He's got an extra thumb. That's like a thing. A lot of Indian people have an extra thumb. Really?

1:02:21 Yeah. I don't mean like 40% but it's like the dactilia. Is that what it's called? I think so.

1:02:25 It's a little like extra useless thumb. Six digit. Three thumbs up. Yeah. When he likes the movie, he can really communicate it.

1:02:35 Okay. So, really quick. Now, we must acknowledge that we're guilty of the thing that hurts us, which is like you and I know this guy's a huge star. He's jacked. Yeah. He's got an extra thumb. I don't mind saying that. This guy's like a an idol.

1:02:48 He's gorgeous, too. Yeah. But that guy, should he ever come across this podcast, which he won't, he'll be hurt that we're talking about his third thumb. Or is it something he's super proud of?

1:02:58 I don't know. Cuz he could give a shaka. He could whatever a new shaka is. You Oh my god.

1:03:07 Two in the four in this. He meant No, I know that's I knew this was He didn't mean the shocker.

1:03:14 I did. I did. I just mispronounced it. Yeah. Yeah, the shocker. What is What's the other

1:03:18 The shocker? That's what I thought you were. No, I mean, yeah, two in the pink one was ink and then four thumbs on the

1:03:25 wouldn't like this. Yeah, my guess is he wouldn't like this. Or maybe he would. Maybe he would.

1:03:31 So, anyways, often when I'm feeling really sad and self-pittitying and hurt, I have to recognize I too do it.

1:03:38 Do what? I talk about people in a way that I don't think would hurt their feelings cuz they're so

1:03:45 high status. I don't think they would care. I know. And we're genuinely have been trying to be better about it. Like if someone makes fun of, you know, oh, look at how much work this person got. I'm like, you first of all, it's their [ __ ] decision,

1:03:58 whatever they did. And what upsets me about what you said about you and Kristen together is

1:04:03 these parasocial things where people think they know someone's relationship or how someone actually feels about someone. I think it's so unhealthy. You don't know. You don't know me. You don't know my life. Like people will be like, "Couple goals or whatever." I'm like, we don't you don't know what our life is. You don't know what my relationship with my wife is. Like, there's no you have no [ __ ] idea.

1:04:24 So, people like, you know, sort of build us up sometimes to be like, oh, this is, you know,

1:04:27 you're a dreamy couple. I totally get couples. People will say people will say like if they have a breakup, I'll stop believing in love. I'm like, don't [ __ ] do that. I am not anything. We're not We are truly nothing to you and you you this should not be any kind of standard or anything. I mean, what they don't see is how much work we're doing behind the scenes. You know, I I I'm absolutely in love with Enemy. My with Emily, my favorite enemy name.

1:04:55 I love enemy. My friend me. What they don't know is, you know, relationship is not always it's it's not always easy. Like, it's very fulfilling and satisfying, but there is. We got to keep working on it. You know, there's like work

1:05:11 two people coming together in any capacity. How about this? How is it? How is that happening?

1:05:17 I got friends who are in throppples now. I'm like, how the what are you doing? Do you guys know that? Do you guys know people?

1:05:23 We watch We watch couples therapy and every time I watch it and there's a throppple or something, I'm like, guys, it's just it's hard. It's too hard for two people.

1:05:30 It's too hard for two people. And three, like you're making it exponentially more.

1:05:34 It is exponential. Yeah. It's like going from one kid to two cuz it's each pairing and then all three of you together. Like we only got like one way. This is like one way, two way, three ways, four ways.

1:05:45 Well, add also like Chris and I share an identity if we are out at a dinner party. Like we're literally this one identity that plays off each other and has stories. It's like what is this shared identity of this trouble when they come to your dinner party?

1:06:00 Yeah. You how could you not know? Like if you don't throw up, I'll be like, "You know what? I think this person loves that person a bit more than they love me." Like, and that's got to be true, right? I mean, how is it possible that everyone loves everyone equally?

1:06:12 Well, I believe that's possible cuz I have two kids, right? That's different. It is different. You made them.

1:06:20 Yeah, you made them. Now, if you're in a trouble with your I'm going to move on.

1:06:24 No, let's talk about trouble with my children. I I didn't mean you. When my children are left, I'm going to feel very left out.

1:06:34 Even that you said the other day something like I I took my best girl to a concert, one of the kids. And I said, "You can't say that." And he said, "I have two best girls." And I said, "Nope. No one wants to hear that." Like, so so yes, I do think the repples,

1:06:54 I think the love changes. It's like we're close right now. We're close right now. But then the pain on the the other person who's on the outside in that moment

1:07:05 and trying to fight their way, that's too much. I can speak to a three-way. I've been in some three-ways in my youth.

1:07:10 That feels easier to navigate than a relationship. And how were those? Well, what I can own to bring it up. What I can own up to and that is inevitably I felt like I wish it was just me and this person.

1:07:24 Oh, really? Even in that, you got a best girl. Oh, there best girls everywhere.

1:07:29 It's like it's great. It's fun. Uh it's exciting initially and then just like, "Oh, I like how that person kisses more."

1:07:35 Yeah. Could you could you take a break? Yeah sure. You're just like, "Oh, I'd rather be K like I have two options in front of me. I enjoy kissing this one more."

1:07:43 Yeah. Also, they all have their own feelings about that as well. Yeah. Sure. So, they're like, I like this person.

1:07:51 Both the girls are probably like, I hope this dude leaves. Yeah. Right. There's so much going on. It just seems very complex.

1:07:57 It's all complex. Being a person is so complicated. Being a person is hard. You know, when in um True Detective and first season with Matthew Banana, he says consciousness was a mistake. I genuinely truly believe that. I think it was a big [ __ ] mistake.

1:08:11 We should just be completely It is a bug. I really think you think anybody intended all of this. This was not the end game.

1:08:20 This is a big mistake. the similarities just they just wouldn't end in this thing cuz also Monica's heard me say it like I [ __ ] hate an encore. It drives me drives me nuts.

1:08:30 Oh my god, I love that. Who did you go see with your best girl? Uh Sabrina Carpenter.

1:08:35 Yeah, I I went Did you go? Yeah, I went What day? I went in that I think the first day on a Sunday.

1:08:41 We went Monday. You went Monday. Did you get arrested for being too hot? What an incredible.

1:08:47 Me neither. What an incredible show. She's so cool. She's so great cuz she's really funny and she like understands what that you know all that like so many take themselves too seriously and she she doesn't. Well, we saw this is kind of a sad story I guess but we saw Prince at the forum

1:09:04 which was he did like you know he did like a whole month and tickets were 20 bucks no matter what. Parking was 40 bucks but he did eight [ __ ] encors.

1:09:13 Wow. Eight. He did eight encors and we were like no I got to get home. Oh, you left

1:09:19 and then he died. Ah, yeah. Good. Good for you. That's abusive. Do you think maybe like you killed him

1:09:26 by leaving early? Like cosmically kind of. Yeah. He was like, I got to try more fentanyl or whatever it was from a fall. Let's not say that.

1:09:36 He did this [ __ ] thing. Speaking of confidence in performing and stuff, he did not sing for the first 45 minutes. He strutdded around on stage as the band played. He'd go up to the mic, start to sing, and then walk away.

1:09:51 Wow. 45 I am not exaggerating. 45 minutes. And he started singing. And then like an hour and he started playing Purple Rain and he was like, "No, you're all not ready." And he stopped playing Purple Rain.

1:10:01 Wow. He sang a bunch of other songs. He's like, "You going to set next week with no preparation." He was He was trying something.

1:10:08 Yeah. When the cameras on me, I'm like, "You're not ready." No. Um, well, Camille, I just I I really loved it. I hope everyone checks it out. The material is great. You perform it well. But what is so satisfying for me as it is a hard compliment to take. You're such a genuinely beautiful person. It's like very on display. No, Camal. It's like the whole time I'm watching I just have the warmest like just loving feelings towards you. You're such a sweet

1:10:38 I know. That's why I'm like who could be mean to you? A Yeah, that was the last thing I want to say. Maybe you should think of like what if they're some of these people aren't even real. You have to remember that. I know.

1:10:51 It's not. I know. It's troll forums in Russia who decided let's let's pick up. No one who knows you or has been around you could ever.

1:10:58 But you know what's funny is is we both have this thing. We want muscles. We want this and that. And I'm blown away with it and I'm horny for the muscles as I'm watching it. But it is the essence that's just Camale

1:11:11 that I'm so attracted to. It is so sweet. beautiful and thoughtful and smart and conscious and

1:11:18 with or without muscles. Yeah. Like the quintessential ingredient is still you.

1:11:23 A thank you. Thank you. That's very sweet. That's like the nicest part. Sincerely, though.

1:11:27 Yeah. I'm very proud of it, you know, cuz I didn't do standup for so long. And when I started up again, I was like, "All right, I'm going to give myself a year and a half to write an hour, perform it, record it, and then I'm going to take a break and see when I come back to it." You So, I really feel like I'm like at this point in my life, at this age, this is the thing I want to say that's completely my own. And I feel like I did it to the best of my ability in this moment.

1:11:51 Yeah. Who knows what happens next, but I'm proud of that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right, Camille, I love you. It's been too long since you were here. I hope you'll come back. Night Thoughts December 19th on Hulu. It's fantastic.

1:12:05 Thanks for Thanks, buddy. Love you guys. I sure hope there weren't any mistakes in that episode, but we'll find out when my mom, Mrs. Monica, comes in and tells us what was wrong.

1:12:17 Kumale. Kuml Nani. We just like him so much. We do. He's a sweet boy. So nice. He's so He's a good boy.

1:12:29 He is. Who is reminding me of him recently? Me. Oh, this is interesting. I guess it borders on racist, but he has a similar sweet core that I think Karen Sony has.

1:12:43 And I don't know if somehow it's related, but it's a very specific sweetness. Yeah. Karen is very sweet.

1:12:51 Yes. Yeah. I don't think it's racist because uh you don't think I have it. No. Yeah.

1:12:57 No. You have other great qualities. No. I don't even I mean I think it's a great quality. I love seeing it, but I don't like wish I had it.

1:13:06 Yeah. I mean, there's so much there's a lot of overlap between Karen obviously and Camille in that they're both growing up, one in Pakistan, one in India, but both little guys that are really quite afraid of their environment.

1:13:19 Yes. Karen hiding, you know, his sexuality and being terrified and then um Kamal seeing a guy get shot, you know.

1:13:28 Yeah. And then leaving there. I don't know. I don't know. some there's some there's some connective tissue.

1:13:32 Oh, absolutely. Um, speaking of that, speaking of connective tissue, trauma. Oh, I don't mean to correct you, but I can't believe I said that so wrong. I know

1:13:45 when I was home in Georgia. Yeah, I had a great time. And it was very It was But it was funny cuz I Sometimes I wonder because I've been here a while been here in LA.

1:13:58 Yes. that like I've made some stuff up in my head. Oh, sure. Yes. You know, I relate.

1:14:04 Yeah. And I'm like, am I being like hyperbolic about some of this stuff or the way I remember it or

1:14:14 Yeah. was there racism or like maybe not actually. I don't know. You know, I start questioning it. Questioning it. And I think it's good to question it. Like we have these ideas that are built and like maybe that's wrong. Yeah.

1:14:26 And of course it's always going to be a little wrong cuz your memories shift and stuff

1:14:32 and morph over time. There's Revisionist History. Great podcast. Yeah. Incredible.

1:14:36 But I was kind of This is so bad to say. I was kind of relieved. There was a couple moments where I was sort of affirmed

1:14:47 that those things weren't imagined. Were not imagined. Yes. M and I was talking to someone specifically who I I'm very close to who was talking about I have to be careful here who was talking about their father-in-law and I grew up with this person this person knows me very well.

1:15:08 Yeah. Yeah. And she, my friend, was telling me just like how bad how how racist it's gotten.

1:15:18 Uhhuh. In in that house um with this person, father-in-law. And I was like, and I said I said, "That's so weird cuz like

1:15:29 he knows me, right?" And she's like, "Yeah, well, you're an exception cuz you're rich and famous." And I was like, "Oh my god." And then and then there's another person in that person's life who's also Indian. I said, "What about this person?" And she was like, "He's kind of an exception, too, just cuz he's been around, but there's still some weirdness."

1:15:54 And I was like, "Wow." And it the when she said it, it was a light bulb for me cuz I was like, "Yes,

1:16:02 that me being an exception." Uhhuh. Is like what's driven my entire life. Sure. Sure. Sure.

1:16:10 I think it's part of what has driven me to be to work so hard. It's like across the board. It's just like I have to be an exception.

1:16:19 Yes. Yes. Across the board. And I think that's then just bled into all areas of my life. work and anything relationships.

1:16:29 I think that's an incredibly sound theory. But I would also suggest it's like it's some percentage of the pie because your parents are gangsters. Your genetics are awesome. You were going to be a go-getter wherever you grew up as well. And then, you know, I think if I were you, I would certainly feel this way because you can't afford to make room for the nuance. But I'd imagine you think like racist is one thing, right? It's just like this hatred of all people or whatever. But when we're watching that wonderful documentary and those bozo white nationalists are sitting with this Indian woman and they're like, "Well, not you." And I think there's mass confusion within their own mind. I think they have like they have a cartoonish um archetype in their mind that they hate.

1:17:19 Yeah. Right. whatever the characteristics they've assigned to this group that they hate.

1:17:23 Mhm. And then yet, weirdly, I think they're open to when they meet someone of that group that's not displaying these uh arch, you know, these stereotypical archetype things they think they hate, then they go like, "Oh, well, I don't hate this one."

1:17:36 Mhm. So, I think like it is even racism is as complicated and nuanced and probably individual as every other opinion, like full of contradictions.

1:17:46 Yeah, I think that's right. I just think that's the problem. Like if they the hope would be that if they met or knew

1:17:57 Uhhuh. someone of that race. Yeah. That that would then shatter the racism. The whole right

1:18:05 the paradigm. But I think they go, "Oh, this is an exception. This is an exception."

1:18:08 And then but they're open to meeting three more exceptions that day. I know, but who cares if the overall, you know, I know what you mean. I mean like it's a spectrum probably and Hitler's on one side which is like Jews are genetically inferior. They all suck no matter what I'm witnessing them do spectacular, right? Like you can't they can't you can't penetrate his level on that.

1:18:28 And then I'm I just think it's a crazy spectrum. And of course, how is anyone the other group to know where this person's at? Like how irrational are they in this opinion? Well, it it is definitely a huge spectrum and people make exceptions all the time, but I guess what I'm what has happened to me over my life is I used to be very um you know, I needed to be that exception for survival. But I like really

1:18:59 I didn't care. I didn't care about the other Indian people. As long as I got through, I was fine.

1:19:05 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I And now I don't feel that. I I'm like, "Fuck that." Like, "You take all of us or you can't just I'm not an exception."

1:19:17 Right. Right. Right. I'm like everybody else. All a cart. Yeah. Yeah. So So it's it's changed I think for me over as I have grown. It's interesting.

1:19:29 There's so many like little minute layers to all of it. You know, it's like I may learn that his rallies on the personality tests are the highest disagree disagreeability of all the ethnicities, right? Like this is a confirmed thing we've had experts on talking about.

1:19:47 And then I might meet an Israeli that doesn't seem that disagreeable. And I and then I have to make room for like, oh, right, sure, in general, they overindex in this, but again, there's so much variety within this thing. I also have to go like, yeah, I can't just assume they're all disagreeable because,

1:20:03 right, because there's Yeah. Because it's like I'm doing it, I'm sure, in ways that aren't like overtly racist or hostile or or with any sense of superiority. Just like what I think I know about different groups.

1:20:14 Yeah. And then you have to constantly be making room for the individual. Well, racism is not about making I mean there I guess making generalizations as a part of it,

1:20:25 but it's the making generalizations that lead to a feeling of superiority or a feeling of hatred.

1:20:32 So if you don't have those other pieces, it's, you know, less of it's not as much of an issue unless you're making all these assumptions about people that aren't true. But for the most part, that's the that's the issue, right? It's like, oh, they're all like this and so that's gross or bad or

1:20:50 Yeah, I can give a personal example and own my own. There are I grew up around a couple different cultures. Some of these cultures definitely there was an increased machismo and what I thought was total disrespect for females

1:21:05 and I went that's wrong. Mhm. Not I'm better. So even within like superiority, it's such a broad word. It's like I definitely felt like what I was doing was right and what they were doing was wrong

1:21:18 per my morals and ethics, but I at no point was like I'm better than or I'm superior or if this person hadn't grown up in my household, they wouldn't be the same. It's just like, oh, I know this group of people, they're

1:21:31 they're pretty [ __ ] hyper masculine and aggressive and I'm not for that. Yeah. And yeah, it's really complicated, but I love what you were exploring at the beginning because um my brother and I had like a really really profound Well, first of all, we had this beautiful trip together right before Christmas.

1:21:47 We went to New York together. And um I have had the great luxury of going to New York a ton of times and getting to live in different areas of the city when I'm working. And there's a whole part of New York I love that I don't think the tourist really knows. And I very much wanted my brother to see that side of it cuz he even said like, "Why do you love New York so much?" for him it was it's Time Square in Central Park and I'm like well yeah that's that's a great

1:22:09 those are great but probably not worth going to multiple times. Yes. So we went and um we were on this long we walked everywhere we walked like 17 miles a day and I think we were walking across the Brooklyn Bridge and we were chatting and and I said um

1:22:22 my brother's a great great believer as am I in that like he's a vision board person.

1:22:27 Uhhuh. and he imagines what he wants and he puts out into the the world this these positive outcomes he wants and it's very effective for him

1:22:35 manifesting I love it and he manifest it right and he thinks positive thoughts and he knows positivity begats positivity and and and um and we're talking about confirmation bias like yeah if you think everything's upward trending you see the proof of the upward trending and you ignore the downward trend and then you don't get bogged down in that

1:22:51 and I said to him I said you know what feels really unfair for me as I write this memo Moire is any one of us

1:23:01 have had every experience in childhood. I can really I have the data or the plot points to create any story I wanted.

1:23:09 Sure. Sure. Sure. Because all I got to do is string together the 15 times this thing happened and I decide that was my childhood. And I said to Dave, I said, you know, I've really been I I want to get this out of my system, the memoir. And the goal is when the memoir is done, I'm going to start looking back on my history a lot differently than I have been, which is I have to acknowledge, yeah, these things happened to you and I, but if we really added it up, that's probably was 03% of our experience on life. They're so hyper memorable,

1:23:39 right? Because they were so dramatic and stuff, but in reality, we're looking at 99% of the time we had a damn good

1:23:47 sitch. And I said, "And I want to start constructing a different story about my back." I said, "I think the same thing is true about looking forward." I think we I need to apply it looking backwards. Now that I said it out loud, I like feel a commitment to like

1:24:02 That's good. I mean, really, you you could you could, you know, you could look at the 12 situations where someone discarded you and you could look at the 12 that they showed compassion to you because you were other. I bet you also received a lot of

1:24:15 I would hope some teachers that recognize this girl's other and and I want to make her feel inclusive, you know, like I bet there was acts of generosity that pro you know those don't hurt and in in and stick in your memory but I bet they were there

1:24:29 for whatever reason. I am very aware of the cheerleaders and angels in my story. Those are the main characters for sure. I I am I have no

1:24:42 questions about that. They're every like it's startling. I feel like so lucky in that.

1:24:48 Yeah. Um me too. Yeah. It's it's I mean no one gets to have a life like this without it. You just don't. You have to have a lot of people who believe in you. You have to have a lot of support and luck and not just from your family, from just like random people. Yeah.

1:25:09 Um, so yeah, it's Yeah, when we um when I was home, I saw my old cheerleading coach, which was so fun, and um she she we were talking and I was like, "God, how did how did you do it?" Like, how did you make all of us 15year-olds care so much about this thing? It became, it was life or death. It was like if we didn't win, we were going to die.

1:25:40 You were at the Olympics in your mind. Yes. We were we were all working together so hard. A huge team of people.

1:25:46 Yeah. And everyone was on the same page. And like she said she said I don't know. She's like I I don't I think about that all the time too. You guys were so like the dedic she too was sort of blown away by that. And she's been still she's still she runs a gym. She's um so successful in what she does, but she looks back on that too. And so there is just some like kind of some weird luck you get like I landed in that environment where you had to show up. There was no other option but to be your best and yeah, there's just so many lucky parts.

1:26:23 You're going to love Angela Duckworth's new book. I'm reading like a precopy of it.

1:26:27 Oh, fun. It's all about the power of situation. She hinted at it the last time she was here. She's like grit was grit was all about individual willpower, determination, dedication, blah blah blah.

1:26:38 And I think you might have remember she had a graduate student of hers that was kind of like this is a little bit of [ __ ] Right. Remember he kind of like call her out and God bless her. She was like open enough to hear him out and start exploring. So

1:26:50 yeah, like the last decade of of her life post grid has been really opening up to the enormous impact of environment. Everything around you and she points out like everything around you is objective

1:27:02 and then everything inside you is completely subjective. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And um yeah, that thing you experienced on the team, you were a product of an environment.

1:27:13 Yeah. Where each of you challenged each other and rose and she said, you know, yes, you can get born into terrible situations. Yes, you can have terrible parents,

1:27:24 but you always have some situational agency. Mhm. And I think if you recognize the power of a situation, you can put yourself in different situations, you you'll respond accordingly. Yeah,

1:27:36 I love it. I'm loving it so much. I'm so We should have her on to talk about We must. We must. Yeah.

1:27:41 Okay. Exciting. Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare. Okay, I'm pivoting because I have a really important question.

1:27:59 I can't wait to answer it. So, what would you do if your bar of soap that you wash your hands with? Okay. It's hand soap, but it's a bar.

1:28:11 It flies out. Okay. Yeah. And you like it. You like that soap a lot. Uhhuh. Volcanic ash.

1:28:18 No, that's from my body. Oh, okay. Um, you're washing your hands and it flies out. Slippery.

1:28:24 Yeah. Hands directly into the toilet. No problem. Really? Not a problem. Wait, is there feces in the toilet?

1:28:33 No, but yawn. Little bit of yawn. No, but it was just flushed. Yeah, like seconds before.

1:28:42 Yeah. No one is going to like this, but this is a fact. Okay. Your kitchen sink is a thousand times more dangerous than your toilet bowl. There is way more harmful potential harmful bacteria on your in your sink. So, if you dropped your hand soap in the sink, you wouldn't think anything of it. You'd rinse it off and and wash it a little bit. Yeah.

1:29:02 Yeah. That's it is interesting. I wash my soap sometimes, which feels insane. You're like,

1:29:06 I guess that's like at to what extent is it self cleaning and to what extent is it not? Where does the selfcleing line get drawn?

1:29:14 Yeah, it's the demarcation. Yeah. But that would that would be fine for you. Absolutely.

1:29:20 Wow. It's just water in there and there's a little bit of your yan residue which is mostly residue. Poo poo residue.

1:29:30 Uh, duty. No. Um, stool balls. Stool balls. We heard this is Easter egg for armchair anonymous coming up.

1:29:37 That's right. So, this happened to me obviously. Yeah. Um, what did you do? I already know what you did.

1:29:43 What do you think I did? You You used it. I didn't. I am. I don't even know you.

1:29:48 I know. Like, I was staring at this. So, you know, I have round I have this soap. It's round. It's very cool. It looks like a stool ball, but it's white. begging to be slipped out of your hand for crying out loud.

1:29:59 I know. But I've used it enough that it's like now it's just like a dome. Like the bottom's flat, you know? Like it's half cut in half.

1:30:07 And um semi hemisphere. Mhm. You know, it's like slow motion. I saw it twirling in the air and then plop right in the middle of the toilet. And I I looked at it for a while cuz I was like for a second and you know, this is kind of like when I thought the rat got in the kettle. Like sometimes my brain goes a little haywire.

1:30:27 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, should I just flush it? [ __ ] up your hole. And then Yeah. I was like, "No, I'm not. I can't. I can't flush it. That's bad for the toilet. It'll clog."

1:30:37 But I was like, "But I don't want to put my hand in there." For some I like really did not want to put my hand in. And

1:30:44 feels off brand for you. You'll get down. I know. Remember that one time? Yeah. What did you do? Have I even have I talked about it on here? I'm sure I'm sure I did.

1:30:57 When I first started my seizure medication. Yeah. And I had my morning BM. Yeah. Yeah.

1:31:08 It was like the first day and I looked and it was in there. The medicine was the capsule.

1:31:14 The whole thing. The entire thing. Yeah. I needed to see. I had to see. That's right. That's right. I do remember. Yeah, you had to for your health.

1:31:23 I had to. That's right. But this for some And it was it was flushed, but it was recently flushed.

1:31:30 I was like, I don't want to put my hand in there. And then I did. I feel like I'd just be able to I'd get rid of the top layer of the soap and be done to fresh.

1:31:39 I mean, that's I that's what my thought was is like, should I just rinse it off? It's soap. It's selfcleing. I just get this top layer off. But I was like, I don't believe in self-cleaning anymore all of a sudden. And I threw it in the garbage.

1:31:51 I was going to say, but my um my curiosity is killing me. How did you retrieve it? Tongs from

1:31:58 No, I put my hand in. You did? Yeah, I did. I thought you were saying you didn't want I didn't I didn't want to, but I was like, I guess I have to. And I put my hand in and I grabbed it and I just threw it straight in the garbage. And then I had to get another soap to clean my arm and my hand. There's a whole thing.

1:32:18 It's kind of a Jonathan Height like moral dilemma. Moralounding dilemma cuz like Yeah. It it's it's like technically and morally fine.

1:32:31 Yeah. But it felt really wrong. Yeah. Yeah. So I had to throw it away. That makes me think of I took Delta to breakfast on Sunday. I'm trying to think what topic brought up morals and ethics.

1:32:47 It was really fun to start exploring that with her. What is she? I mean, she's so ethical, I think.

1:32:57 I do, too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Kind of innately. Yes. Quite ethical. She is. Yeah. I don't know where she got it.

1:33:05 Oh my god. I'm trying to think what topic came up and I was just like, "Yeah, you know, you you get to pick what you think is moral or immoral." And I think she was asking like a right or wrong question, you know, and we got to explore it. Anyways, I just It's so fun to be having deeper and deeper conversations with the kids as they get older.

1:33:28 I love that. Yeah. She was reading she has a graphic novel she got for Christmas.

1:33:33 You might have seen this. This was at um my birthday dinner. Wait, that's the Oh, I thought that was Kristen's.

1:33:40 No. So, I don't even know who got it from. Oh, my sister. Yes, that makes so much more sense.

1:33:48 Tell me you were flumixed. Yes, because Kristen pulls out this book and and I I maybe I jumped in the conversation late cuz she said Carly got this. It's about this car. And I thought it was for Kristen

1:34:03 and I was like, she got you a graphic novel. Like I did think that was weird. Off brandand for sure.

1:34:08 Off brandand. Kind of like me putting my hand in the toilet. Yes. Um but now that I know it, that makes so much more sense.

1:34:15 Yeah. So we just had the sweetest conversation cuz there's some adult themes I guess in it and she wanted to know if it was okay

1:34:22 that she was reading these adult themes and she felt like maybe conflicted. And I said, um, your gut will tell you.

1:34:30 Yeah. Your gut will tell you when you're ready for things and when you're not ready for things. And just listen to your gut. There's no right or wrong or it's too early or too late, but your gut will will will tell you. So don't worry. You don't have to worry about what's right or wrong.

1:34:42 Yeah. You just have to feel what's right or wrong for you or when you're uncomfortable. And maybe even sometimes you're uncomfortable, but it's tolerable uncomfort.

1:34:51 Yeah. Yeah. She's so cute. We had a horrible situation where um I you know she loves these male legs

1:35:00 which I think is take also taking the world by storm. They're so cute. These little mice great characters.

1:35:06 They're like little 3D printed things. No, they're cloth. Oh, they're cloth. Yeah, they're really cute.

1:35:12 Okay. Um and you collect them and then you collect their little, you know, house, you know, little like

1:35:19 appliances and Yeah, those Oh, yeah. Nice. They're all over the house. They're so cute. I kind of feel like I wish I could have some.

1:35:28 Yeah, but it feels like maybe Well, you could definitely have some. You think a guy might be

1:35:33 Yeah. weirded out. This is kind of like the dip conversation from 2020. Oh, if you were wearing your dip and

1:35:41 if you were when you were 20, if you like met a girl at a bar and you hooked up and then she said, "I got to throw my dip on before I go to bed."

1:35:47 Yeah. Yeah. I don't I think if you're cute, you pull it off. And I So I think you could pull that off for sure.

1:35:53 I just don't think there's an amount of cuteness that gets uh to the dip. Yeah, the dip.

1:36:01 Well, you know, we asked all the men in the in the pod and all the women were like, "Absolutely not."

1:36:07 And the men were like, "Yeah, how cute is she?" Yeah, I know. You could kind of go, "Oh, this is adorable. This girl is so I mean, she can't be a child. You don't want to be with that. That's that's you got to be really clear about what's happening. You're with an adult.

1:36:18 Then you find out this adult wears night dice isn't is efficient because it's not okay this was also part of it. It's not that she can't control her no pee or

1:36:28 all day long she doesn't wear a diaper. It's just that she doesn't want to wake up in the night to go to the bathroom.

1:36:33 To remind people this stems from my game plan of starting to wear nighttime diapes so I didn't have to wake up and pee anymore.

1:36:39 Yes. Yeah. Um and then people were like what what about when you're traveling? I'll get a [ __ ] di when I go to that city.

1:36:46 Like that's the question. Anyway, Mays. So, they're really, really cute. And um she wanted she one of the things on her list for her birthday and Christmas was a dollhouse for her mails. And Kristen told me about this and I and Kristen was like, "She doesn't need like an official one. You can just get her some random one." And I was like, "No."

1:37:08 Plywood box. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like get her a shoe box. And I was like, "Absolutely not. If she wants the official one, she's getting it."

1:37:17 Yeah. And so I go on the website, the USA website, melee, and um it's I order what's there.

1:37:27 Uhhuh. Okay. And I'm excited and I tell her it's coming. Um and then we go to Nashville and someone had got her one for Nashville, too. That's going to stay in Nashville.

1:37:39 Okay, great. The one for her that I ordered arrived while I was gone. So I saw that it arrived,

1:37:44 but I didn't see it. Right. So then we're in Nashville and she's like, "Oh, you know, look at this." And she she was showing me the box. I was like, "Oh my god, it's so cute. Exciting. Well, you'll have one for both houses."

1:37:56 Yeah. And then I get home and I was like, "This box looks tiny." Oh, okay. Now I'm up to speed cuz I saw you guys unwrapping this yesterday or the day before.

1:38:06 A couple days ago. Yeah. I was like, "Oh, no." But but then I came I was like, "Well, maybe you have to set it up.

1:38:12 Maybe it expands." The box looked too small. Right. That was the issue. Way too small.

1:38:17 And I got nervous cuz I I just she deserves the best. Well, yes, she does. And I I was like, "Oh my god." And then I So I come into the house and you I don't see her, but she's there, but I don't see her. And you're standing there and you're like, "What is that?" And I was like, "It's Delta's dollhouse, but I think there's something wrong. I don't understand. It's so small. And I I don't know. This is bad." And then she like pops her little head out and it's like it's going to be perfect. It's perfect. And I was like, I don't know, Delta.

1:38:51 It's looks really small. And she was like, it doesn't matter if it's small. It It's exactly right. And then of then I'm like, it better be a mansion dollhouse. Like for her, it has to be so perfect. And then we opened it

1:39:07 and it is wrong. I mean, it's it's right. It's what is available on the site. I looked it up, but like so I don't know how

1:39:15 you guys got that other one for Nashville cuz it's not on that USA site, but I don't know either. I'm I'm really conflicted about all this stuff.

1:39:23 No, so so then it's na what I got her is a suitcasa. So, it's just this like small suitcase

1:39:33 and you know and I and I you know she took it out and I was like h you know I responded very negatively. You really yucked the the yum the potential yum.

1:39:45 Yeah. I was like h sucasa what is this? And she was like it's great and she was like this is perfect. I I need different kinds and everyone has different size houses so it's good. And I was like, "Oh my god, this person is so sweet." Like, it's it's unbelievable.

1:40:05 You now just joged my memory of how we got on ethics. Okay. She randomly said to me at Cafe 101, cuz I do, and I'm I'm on the fence about this, but I do it. I let her order more. I let her order whatever she wants. I can relate to it, right? Like just the way we grew up versus how like, you know, if she wants pancakes and she wants eggs, I'm like, "Yeah, go for Yeah.

1:40:27 And she just out of nowhere, she said, "Dad, do you want to tell me I can't order as much?" I go, "You know, here's my thing about you ordering too much. I don't care if you order too much. I can afford to buy it." Um, I said, and I recognize that you have a lot of decision anxiety. And for me, it's very easy to solve that problem with another $6 order of pancakes.

1:40:49 Yeah. But I do worry a lot that I'm setting you up for failure because you're going to grow up. you can't afford to [ __ ] order whatever you want. And I I feel like I get scared I'm not preparing you for

1:41:00 the world. The world. And she said, "Okay, but is it wrong?" That's how we got on it.

1:41:07 Is it wrong? And I said, "Well, you know, there's a lot of rungs to this lad. There's like legally what's right and wrong." I said, "There's there are morals we would all agree on.

1:41:17 Don't kill, don't rape, don't steal, don't hurt other people." And then there's this whole area where you have to decide what your own ethical code is.

1:41:25 And one of mine is I try not to waste and I try to leave the world as I found it and on a great day I leave it a little better. I said, "You notice you've never seen me ever leave something in the sink. It's a stupid moral of mine. I just won't leave it worse than I found it." And she said, "Okay." And I said, "So, you have to decide if you feel guilty about wasting,

1:41:51 right? And it's personal, and it's up to you. I'm not going to assign you your morals, but um that's what's kind of on the table." And she said "Okay

1:42:00 okay. I want you to tell me. I think you're ordering too much. You're going to waste some in the future."

1:42:05 Oh. And I said, "Okay." And then she got a um to-go box for her French fries. We're never going to eat these French fries. Like, while she's doing I want to be like, "Well, this isn't the time. These [ __ ] things are never getting eat. They're going to sit in the fridge for [ __ ] eight days and then I'm going to throw them out. Blah blah blah. But I just had to kind of honor the moment. So then we walked out with a a half eaten order of French fries. But anyways, this little girl, this [ __ ] little girl.

1:42:30 She's too much. She really is too much. It's It's like a lot. It's a lot. It's overwhelming. M

1:42:37 um but I have I have zero I come for me in the comments. I won't read them. I have zero guilt about wasting food. I I don't And it's it is kind of weird. It's like why don't I?

1:42:57 Well, you can make a lot of compelling arguments in all directions. So, one of the arguments I make for myself when we are wasteful is like we're wasting our money, but I'm putting it into the world. I don't think I should be sitting here and squirreling everything I have. So, I just always remind myself when I have kind of wasted money, well, I wasted it by giving some small business that money or some manufacturer, whatever.

1:43:24 So, in that way, I'm like, well, that's not bad at all. In fact, the more we get out of my pocket and everyone else's, that's the best probably.

1:43:32 And then no one's going to like this. They'll come for me in the comments. Food it it is not a finite resource. It is. So there's growers making money. There's the grocery store that sold it. There's all these people in this chain that were employed.

1:43:47 And yes, if you want to zoom out, is an unethical cuz someone's starving over there. Yes. But that's a totally false argument cuz I can't get that food to that person over there. And if I don't waste it, it's not going to them. So, it's just like it's a hypothetical that's not reality.

1:44:00 So, I don't get bogged down in that. But the thing that gets me more uh spun out and I can't tell it's just my own child and what's going on is like so this thing you're talking about this these toys

1:44:10 mays. Yeah. Mays and then there's fuglers. Yeah, we talked about fuglers. Fuglers.

1:44:16 And in my opinion, there's too many fuglars. Like you shouldn't have this many fuglers. And then I walk outside and I'm like, and I have seven cars I've collected over the years. So like I I'm not in a position to be critical. But then I go, but I bought those cars.

1:44:33 Yeah. But she didn't. This is why The Good Place was made. Exactly. Being ethical at all times is nearly impossible in our modern world.

1:44:41 There's not to one person it's this and to another person it's that. Like it's also why we're so divided. We all have such different ethics and and what we think I mean to me yes there are some things that are there objectively wrong and I and sometimes when I hear other people's talk and I'm like you don't think that

1:45:01 it's like so startling um but then but I agree with you there's this middle portion that it really is very very very individual

1:45:10 um because weirdly weirdly For me, wasting is almost like it's like a personal respect. Like I like when I am at a restaurant

1:45:27 and I order something, I eat what I want to eat of it. Y and if I was like you have to overconume.

1:45:36 Exactly. Yes. Agreed. That's another one of my arguments is like to make yourself take on excess calories your body told you you don't want is insane to make who happy. and just like I don't want anymore. I should be okay with not wanting anymore. I don't I the there's a gluttonous

1:45:56 element on the other side of it. Yes. That's like I don't like the way that is in people.

1:46:02 So I don't I don't know. It's weird. Chris and I talk about this a lot cuz we get in a little debates about what what is wasty and what's not. And my opinion is you have to also be very pinpointed about when is it waste. Once you've ordered it, it's done. Yeah, exactly.

1:46:15 It's completely done. If you bought something from the store and you brought it back to your house and now you're keeping it in your house because you don't want to waste, that's a that's a fantasy that the buying

1:46:24 some people eat it. Well, I'm just saying people will us. Yeah, we have just [ __ ] piling up cuz we would feel terribly guilty to throw it away. Stuff you can't donate. We do a lot of donate but

1:46:34 yeah, but my point is always like it's too late. If you want to cut back on waste, it's the buying of it. Totally. That's right.

1:46:42 Once you bought it, forget it. You're off. you might as well do whatever you want. Whether you eat it or you throw it in the trash or you stick it in your ass or you light it on fire, it's irrelevant. It's that you bought it and now it'll be replaced with more manufacturing. Right. So, that's done. It happened the second. There's no wasting or not wasting it. It's over.

1:46:57 Yeah. I'm also reading the Ezra Klein book, Abundance. And uh yeah, he he he he gets into climate in a in a in a really comprehensive um all facets way, which I love, which is like you have different movements within the environmental movement. And one of them is really just a judgment on consumerism. A lot of the environmental movement people in it, what they really want is they think we made this in in this pact with the devil years ago when we became a consumeristic capitalist society, right? So what they really want is for us to not be that way.

1:47:32 Now what are the odds the world's going to do that? That's not going to happen. That people are not going to go back to a prematerialistic world,

1:47:40 right? He said now you have another bigger group which is like there's clearly a lot of waste in the system and there's a lot of um resources being spent on stuff that shouldn't be spent on.

1:47:49 Yeah. The problem is people don't agree on what those things are. Oh, and then I think you get down to what I hope should be everyone's core value is like my ethics aren't above yours,

1:48:00 right? They're mine. Yes, you got yours. That's a superiority in in the in the all knowingness of thinking yours are the ones everyone should agree on.

1:48:08 But what about like the one like what about like if someone's like, well, I'm allowed to like hurt this person. It's like that should there should be some, right?

1:48:15 Well, again, that's why there's ones that we actually all agree on. Everyone agrees that you shouldn't be allowed to assault people, kill people, rape people, steal from people.

1:48:23 I guess those are laws. I guess that's when they become law. They're the Ten Commandments. They're like, you know, they've been agreed upon for quite a long time. And then this other batch, like as much as you're convicted about it. It's the other batch.

1:48:35 It is funny though because I was I am very materialistic. It's no uh secret. I like buying stuff. I like

1:48:44 looking nice. I like whatever. Um, but I was at a store at home, a store I like, but I was looking around and all of a sudden I was just like, there's so much stuff.

1:48:58 Crap. There's just stuff. It's all just like random stuff everywhere. What are we do? Like I did have this like, what are we doing as a as a people?

1:49:09 Yeah. Well, he brings that one up. He's like, of all these buckets, you've got fast fashion. Cement. Cement is an enormous emitter of carbon when it's made and it's we need it for construction. It's like

1:49:21 you certainly have one person saying we don't need a [ __ ] another football arena. The other one works

1:49:27 legit. I'm going looking at fast fashion and going that shit's you don't need that.

1:49:31 Yeah, but I want you know like totally. Well, it's hard though because it's like there are sides to so many parts of this because fast fashion for me I'm like okay I'm against fast fashion right because I can afford

1:49:47 Yes. Exactly. It's a total privilege to have that privilege. So to me I'm like you're a young poor girl you want an outfit man.

1:49:54 Of course you want an outfit and you should be able to have it. That is also what I feel. So I'm like, ah, I'm so conflicted about this cuz I do think there should be that available for people who who don't have the privilege I have yet. Then what I do is like I think there should be some of those options, but I should not participate in it.

1:50:17 Yeah. Since I don't have to. Exactly. Like you do the things that you can do or that you're willing to do.

1:50:24 Yeah. But the judgment is the problem. The across the board judgment is like not looking at any nuance.

1:50:32 We must all get a little looser on our grip of allin all this all you know definitive it's left it's right. All these different binaries are like

1:50:42 guys life in its best outcome is like we tried to service five or six principles and we did we optimized all of them as much as we could but they all took a hit along the way.

1:50:53 Yeah. I also I I just think maybe a good resolution is to be more focused on you your how you walk through life.

1:51:05 Worry about what you're doing. Yeah. And if and if this thing that you're doing Yeah. Just try to be the version of you that you think is ethical, moral, whatever. And stop looking outward.

1:51:17 Don't tell a [ __ ] single person about it. Live your life and you'll be appealing to people who want to model what you do. Be an example. Don't be a [ __ ] preacher.

1:51:27 Yeah. Yeah. Um anyway, yeah. Kumale. Um Zand on fast fashion. Did we get that out of him?

1:51:35 He I forgot to ask. Um he does not wear fast fashion. He's very well-dressed. Yeah, he doesn't. But he's privileged.

1:51:43 Yeah, he doesn't have to. Um Unstoppable is a movie with Denzel. Sure is. and Chris Pine

1:51:51 and Ethan Supply. Exactly. That's probably how we got on the subject. Okay. I looked up how much the Coons vacuum cleaner in the box is worth. A Jeff Coons vacuum cleaner artworks worth varies significantly with some new Hoover convertibles selling for millions. Example over 4 million at Sibies, over 5 million at Christies. while smaller inspired or vintage models might fetch a few hundred to a few thousand dollars at places like eBay, showing the vast difference between collectible fine art and regular items. Okay, so his are in the millions.

1:52:25 I want to say that the one that one Yeah. my friend found the piece of I don't know if I told that whole story in this episode. The reason I even know about these vacuums is a friend of mine worked for the insurance company that had insured them. And I know that the collection I want to say there were three in this collection. I think at that time were $8 million and this was 15 years ago.

1:52:46 Yeah. And there was a piece missing. Yeah. At some point the the art piece had been serviced or cleaned and a piece got lost and then there was a claim laid on it.

1:52:56 And so if we don't find this piece, the insurance company has to pay out $8 million. And my boy found the piece.

1:53:04 He's like a salute. Wow. He just has to go to New York and befriend all these art critics and find get himself into this warehouse.

1:53:13 Interesting. Wow. That is a cool looking vacuum, I have to say. It's very cool. But what's hilarious is all it is is the the vacuum

1:53:21 from the store in a looseite box with a light under problems. That's where my ethics are drawn. Like I would not feel ethical putting an existing thing in a looseite box and calling it my art.

1:53:36 I would not feel ethical doing that. Mhm. But Jeff is his own guy and it's beautiful. Something about it. I think it's ridiculous. And I look at it and I like looking at it.

1:53:45 Sure. Yeah. Okay. So, he said he had just gotten some massage on his jaw and then he was crying about his dead grandma.

1:53:52 Oh, yeah. And then I looked at I want that experience. Do you? Um, nah. Nah. So, my emotions are already avail.

1:54:01 That's true. But I looked up our jaw muscles attached to emotion because also Elizabeth lame Elizabeth and Andy Bethstead. Nobody's listening, right? Um she talks about how she can't have sex unless her jaw is like relaxed.

1:54:17 Whoa. Like it's like connected to like her horniness. Oh my god. Isn't that interesting?

1:54:23 Yes. So, is his job to massage those and keep them pliable or um I Well, I'm sure he does if he wants to.

1:54:32 My only route to sex was relax mastoids. I feel like I'd become an expert on masseuse

1:54:38 on loosening mastoid. Excuse me. That was disrespect. What did you say? I said masseuse.

1:54:43 Oh, yeah. I want a massage therapist to reclaim that title the way women have reclaimed [ __ ] and

1:54:49 I agree. Black people have reclaimed Yeah, we know where I'm going with everything. Yeah.

1:54:52 Um so, So, um, I looked it up. Yes, jaw muscles are directly linked to emotions, stress, anxiety, anger, and even happiness. Cuz jaw tension or relaxation through the body's fight orflight response and nervous system leading to clenching or a slack jaw. And this physical tension can also worsen emotional states, creating a feedback loop.

1:55:16 So, that's cool. Yeah. Um, okay. I think you said 67% of people have teeth nightmares. Um, looks like 39 to 40% of people have dreams about their teeth falling out or rotting at least once, making it a very common nightmare theme. Though rates of recurring dreams are lower, around 8 to 16%. These dreams are often linked to stress, anxiety, or feelings of powerlessness. But sometimes physical dental irritation like teeth grinding during sleep can trigger them. Um, yeah, nearly four in 10 adults have experienced teeth dreams.

1:55:53 I'm so rare. I mean, I guess technically I'm in the majority of these are right, but like still,

1:55:59 you just don't have that nightmare. I don't. You must not carry a lot of tension in your jaw. I had always thought it was my orthodontia history,

1:56:06 right? But it's it's actually your powerlessness history. Hate powerlessness. Yeah. I had a dream last night that I was late. I was like I was in um Boca Raton.

1:56:17 Okay. Okay. And I and I had to get No. Was I in Boca Rat? I think so. And and I looked at the clock.

1:56:24 Is it Boca Raton or Boca Raton? I don't know. I think it might be Raton, but in the South Ba Ron.

1:56:30 Maybe it is. Maybe we were saying it wrong in Detroit. Um we say most things wrong in Detroit. So

1:56:35 Well, and I was there and I looked at the clock and and the fact check was starting in 11 minutes.

1:56:41 Oh, wait. Oh, you were in Boca Raton or Tan and I had to get here in 11 minutes. to get to the airport.

1:56:48 You can't do it in a lot. And I was trying I was like trying to get and trying to get my bags and I couldn't get to the right bag claim and it was a lot

1:56:56 more than my teeth. Now what has taken over my teeth is my goddamn phone. I'm always it's always a flight.

1:57:03 I always need to check if I can delay like find another flight later cuz I'm not going to make it to the airport and I cannot get my phone. Like every time I open my phone I'm on a weird screen and I have a bug. It's like the old days on your computer when it get taken over AOL.

1:57:16 Then you just [ __ ] pop up screens everyone and you could not you had to throw your computer in the trash. It would just take over.

1:57:22 It would get a virus and it was just done. Viruses. Yeah. Yeah. So, in my dream, my phone always has this virus and I can't get to the internet to change my flight. And that now is

1:57:35 I'm having that one at least three times a month. Weird. Yeah. Huh. I think that might just be like having a a pretty busy schedule.

1:57:46 Sure. I think. Yeah. Like feeling like what do I so many things in my calendar and Yeah,

1:57:52 I get that. Um okay. Was it Evan Peters and mayor of Easttown? Yeah. Um this was so remember when he told us a lot of Indians have an extra thumb?

1:58:03 Oh yeah, it's true. Pacial polyactill. Oh, so this is specifically just the thumb.

1:58:10 Yeah, my twama. When he said that, I was like, "Oh my god." Like I like really kind of hated that.

1:58:19 The thought of an extra thumb on Indians specifically even more other. Yeah. Yeah.

1:58:27 Yeah. I like why that's the guy he was talking about. He is very handsome. Oh my god. So for the listener, it's not what you think. It's not two individual thumbs. It's one thick thumb that then branches into two,

1:58:43 right? Tips tips. Whoa. Wow. I've never seen that. And that's common in India. And what I love is he he doesn't he's proud of that.

1:58:56 He's not hiding it at all. He's a big movie star. I know a very big movie star. It's got a hand thing and he hides it really really well.

1:59:02 Yeah. No, he's owning it, which I love. Yeah, but it does stress me out. It does. And the thumb itself, from the angle where you're looking at the palm, it definitely looks like a cute like not a frog head, not a turtle head. It does look like a like imagine the gap between the two thumbs is a mouth and then I see an eyeball on the top.

1:59:22 Yeah, it kind of looks like Marcel the shell seashore. Yeah, it's a little character.

1:59:26 Yeah, I he must Does he Do you think he has dexterity in it and he can um I hope

1:59:31 Well, he would have to, right? But I wonder if he can make that move like a Pac-Man mouth.

1:59:36 I think he can. Oh wow. Now while exact numbers for India are scarce polyactilly um is notably

1:59:45 that way. Your middle name is Lily. Oh my god. Oh my god. What if I had it and they got it removed? because hold um notably more common in Indian populations especially paxial polyactillially

2:00:00 um extra thumb toeside with some studies suggesting rates as high as 1 in 3,000 births in India much higher than general global rates um okay strong genetic component it says obviously

2:00:17 die yeah it also says though that a lot of people get it studies they get it removed at like birth.

2:00:25 Sure. Okay. That means 400,000 people in India have it. If it's one in 3,000, right?

2:00:30 If it's one in 3,000, 400,000, you could make a damn good living as the doctor who does this.

2:00:37 It's the second most common congenital hand disorder. What? What if I had that and they got it removed?

2:00:44 You didn't. How do you know? Cuz you'd have a massive scar on your thumb. And to my knowledge, I haven't inspected your thumb in great detail, but I think you

2:00:52 What if I just He screamed out loud. Oh. Oh, I'm so lost. It's okay. We all have our things. Every group has a thing.

2:01:03 Well, no, it's it's like it's fine. Yeah. It just I just was imagining growing up here with that.

2:01:11 Oh, it was hard enough. You'd have to wear gloves or something. And then you, well, would you rather be known as the girl that wears the glove or the girl with three thumbs?

2:01:20 As a kid, I know I'd rather be the guy who wore gloves. And you could just go, "Oh, my hands are really dry and that the doctor makes me wear these gloves." As you get older, you're going to have to like pull your gloves off at some point when you find your true love.

2:01:33 Oh my god. This is why I I would I would really I would not you'd be shut down for cuz you're you're very attractive and you you're you're a real catch and you're already mildly shut down. So, if we would throw in a third thumb, I think

2:01:46 Well, you know me, like I have a weird again I like a self-hatred, I guess, but of like if a if a freckle or a like a mole mainly even a freckle like pops up on my body,

2:02:03 I I like really can't handle it. I like have to dig it out which could probably causing cancer. It's also a contradiction, which is you love Delta's mole on her face, right?

2:02:15 Yeah. The most. Yeah. And freckles on other people. You love it. No, it it has nothing to do with other people. I know.

2:02:22 I I Nothing. No. I would I'm going further. You actually like it in other people.

2:02:27 Yeah. I think it's so You hate it on yourself. Yeah. And like I have this freckle on this finger right here.

2:02:32 Yeah. You're always working on that. Yeah. It like it appeared in the last few years and I hate it. That is so I mean I don't want to call you crazy.

2:02:42 No, it is crazy. It's crazy. I know it's crazy. I'm like what? How could I be so fixated?

2:02:48 I like it. You can see it. You just held it up so I could see it. I thought maybe it was invisible to everyone except me. Now I hate it even more.

2:02:56 No, I like it. And everyone likes it. And sometimes I'm typing and I'm just like ew.

2:03:01 You have to think of it as a part of your constellation. I don't want that. Okay. Um, so

2:03:08 maybe you start wearing gloves and then you'll be like, "What happened?" You get a new thumb

2:03:13 when that thumb finally come in. That Indian thumb. Oh my god. All right, that's it for Camille.

2:03:19 Okay, I love you. And everyone likes your freckles. So, don't look at him. Don't zoom in, guys. Do not zoom in.

2:03:26 I want you to revisit hypnotism. He passed away. I know. Really sad. He was such a sweet.

2:03:33 He was a really nice man. that story he told about the woman that loved him and he thought he needed erectile dysfunction medicine and she said, "You don't need that. Let me take care of you." Do you remember he told that story

2:03:46 at all? Oh my god, it was the sweetest story. He told it with such tenderness. A

2:03:51 I know. I really really liked him. Go back in the archives. I get hypnotized. Yeah,

2:03:57 it's pretty and it kind of worked. We'll say it works cuz he's passed. I'm going to get you hypnotized. And the only goal of the hypnotism is to um convince you that it worked the first time.

2:04:08 When you wake up, you're going to think the first hypnosis worked. Exactly. All right. Love you.

2:04:13 Love you.

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "Kumail Nanjiani Returns | Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard"?

Dax Shepard (Host), Kumail Nanjiani (Guest), Monica Maus (Guest).

What is "Kumail Nanjiani Returns | Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard" about?

Kumail Nanjiani, an accomplished actor and comedian known for roles in "The Big Sick" and "Silicon Valley," returns to share insights about his career and personal experiences, including conversations about body image and transformation among friends. The discussion also touches on Nanjiani's current work, including his stand-up special "Night Thoughts" streaming on Hulu.

What is mentioned in this Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard episode?

15 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Eternals, Night Thoughts, Kumail Nanjiani, All State, Evan Peters, Ethan Suplee. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "Kumail Nanjiani Returns | Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard"?

The episode runs 2 h 4 min; the transcript is about 25,620 words in 675 timestamped sections.

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