Part Two: Peter Thiel and the Anti-Christ | BEHIND THE BASTARDS

What this episode is about

The discussion centers around Peter Thiel's controversial views on the Antichrist, exploring his beliefs and the implications of these ideas. The conversation also touches on broader themes of societal fear, particularly relating to the satanic panic, as highlighted by guest Sarah Marshall's new podcast tackling the historical and contemporary impacts of such fears.

Key takeaways

• Sometimes the devil is in the details, but in this case, it's hilariously in Peter Cook's portrayal of Satan.
• The real test of faith seems to be why God would play judge over human misery—who's the real villain?
• In the cosmic comedy of life, the trickster might just be the most relatable character, even in hell.
• Peter Thiel believes science should make us immortal—perhaps instead he’s just selling snake oil with a tech twist.
• Bedazzled offers a surprisingly nuanced take on good vs. evil—surprising coming from a comedy about making deals with the devil.

Who speaks in this episode?

• Robert Evans (Host) · 47 min speaking
• Sarah Marshall (Guest) · 31 min speaking

What is discussed, and when

1. 0:00 – 10:00: One World or None, Dudley Moore, Sarah Marshall, You're Wrong About
2. 10:00 – 20:00: One World or None
3. 50:00 – 1:00:00: Carl Schmitt
4. 1:00:00 – 1:10:00: Carl Schmitt, Facebook
5. 1:10:00 – 1:17:55: You're Wrong About

Notable quotes from "Part Two: Peter Thiel and the Anti-Christ | BEHIND THE BASTARDS"

• Absolutely. Sarah Marshall, you got anything you want to plug here at the stop at the start before we dive back in?

  about Sarah Marshall · at 0:37

• BUT YEAH, PETER COOK AND DUDLEY Moore are one of the great comedy duos. And I do feel like the idea of just the trickster devil is so beautifully embodied there. And that.

  about Dudley Moore · at 4:31

• And in 1945, the National Committee on Atomic Information published One World or None, which is generally agreed to have been like the first atomic scare movie. Like this is the first like what if a nuclear war movie, right? Oh boy.

  about One World or None · at 6:07

• Yeah. And it's it's because basically Peter's primary claim here is that the Antichrist is anyone warning people about the apocalypse and trying to save the world. That's if that's not the Antichrist, that's an agent of the.

  about Dr. Strangelove · at 23:54

• Let's have an ad. So, we're back and I talked up at the start about Carl Schmidt, who's the Nazi philosopher who discussed how to destroy democracies in a way that Peter Teal…

  about Carl Schmitt · at 56:58

• The inventor of the like button on Facebook. for good reason because Peter Teal has justified him betting on Facebook by saying quote I bet on mimmesis right like on mimemetic…

  about Facebook · at 1:07:31

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

• Sarah Marshall — Person · Guest / co-host for the episode · 1 mention · first at 0:37
  Recurring guest who reacts to and analyzes Thiel’s claims; also plugs her podcasts and contributes cultural references (e.g., Bedazzled).
• Carl Schmitt — Person · Referenced theorist (ideological influence discussed) · 5 mentions · first at 57:00
  Presented as a Nazi legal/political theorist whose friend–enemy conception of politics influenced Thiel’s anti-democratic/authoritarian leanings.
• Rene Girard — Person · Referenced theorist (claimed influence on Thiel/Vance) · 2 mentions
  Discussed as the originator of mimetic theory and scapegoat theory; hosts argue Thiel/Vance distort Girard’s anti-scapegoating message.
• Dudley Moore — Person · Referenced actor (cultural aside) · 2 mentions · first at 1:58
  Mentioned in discussion of the film Bedazzled; part of a comedic tangent about portrayals of the devil.

Books & papers

• You're Wrong About — Book · Secondary recommendation · 2 mentions · first at 1:12
  Sarah Marshall's podcast where she discusses misunderstood history and events.
  And of course, I also host a show called You're Wrong About, and you can listen to that, too. And it's we have fun while trying to get to the bottom of things, much like.
• One World or None — Book · Referenced work · 3 mentions · first at 6:10
  Mentioned as the first atomic scare movie, discussing the dangers of nuclear weapons.

Companies & orgs

• National Committee on Atomic Information — Company · Referenced organization · 3 mentions
  Mentioned as the publisher of 'One World or None', discussing nuclear dangers.
  And in 1945, the National Committee on Atomic Information published One World or None, which is generally agreed to have been like the first atomic scare movie. Like this is the first like what.
• Facebook — Company · Incidental mention · 1 mention · first at 1:07:33
  Briefly mentioned in the context of social media and mimetic rivalry.

Media & podcasts

• Dr. Strangelove — Media · Referenced work · 4 mentions
  Discussed in the context of Peter Teal's interpretation of the Antichrist and apocalyptic themes.

Full transcript with timestamps

0:00 Welcome behind the bastards back to podcast people bad about tell all them you. I'm Robert Evans. Uh and yeah uh with me again for part two of our episode on what Peter Teal thinks about the Antichrist. Um I'm I'm just I'm I'm sorry that that's that's what we're we're talking about right now.

0:22 I love it. We're getting right to the heart of the matter, you know, cuz people are like, "Do you want to talk about the economy?" And I'm like, "No, no,

0:30 no. I don't I don't want to talk about the economy. I'm tired of talking about the economy."

0:35 Tell me what they believe. Absolutely. Sarah Marshall, uh, you got anything you want to plug here at the stop at the start before we dive back in?

0:44 Yeah. I have a new podcast about the satanic panic and the Oh, yeah. Uh, wackadoo horrible things that the fear of a Satan who never showed up to the party um caused a self-described good and law-abiding people to uh bring about. And it's it's a sad show. It's a fun show. It's a show about history. It's a show about today. It's called The Devil You Know. It's all right now with CBC podcasts. And of course, I also host a show called You're Wrong About, and you can listen to that, too. And it's uh

1:18 you know, we we have fun while trying to get to the bottom of things, much like you do.

1:23 Right. Right. We're talking today about Peter Teal being wrong about something important. And we're also talking about the devil he knows. Uh or at least who he thinks the devil might be.

1:32 His fantasy devil perhaps. His fantasy. I guarantee. Okay, great question. You're not going to see where this is going. My question is Sarah, who is your fantasy devil?

1:44 Oh, there you go. Uh, Peter Cook and Bedazzled, of course. Wow. Oh, you know, I Sarah, you could not have said anything that would have gotten me more on your side than that. I love the original Bedazzled,

2:00 right? He is a He's the best Satan easily by a mile. Tell me why you think that is. And people haven't seen this movie enough. It's it's a delight. as Peter Cook and Dudley Moore.

2:11 I respect both from a theological standpoint and from uh just an entertainment standpoint the idea of a devil who is f whose primary focus is not on acts of grand evil but on acts of like petty annoyance like that scene where he's just like casually scratching records and then putting them in the mail. It's so funny to me.

2:30 And there's a scene where he's ripping the last pages out of novels. Yes. Yes. And there's that there's that I mean my favorite part I guess spoilers for the film bedazzled which is half a century old but there's a great scene

2:44 there's a great scene where the guy whose soul he's the devil is trying to to to win and he are talking and he the guy the human asks him like why did you rebel against God in the first place it seems like he had a pretty sweet deal and the devil the devil like gets up on top of uh I think it's a mailbox or something and he's like okay I'm going to like walk you through what it was like you know back then I'm God start praising me and the guy's like goes around like, "I praise you. Keep going. Keep praising me. Keep praising me.

3:09 Keep" And he goes on like this for a while and eventually the guy's like, "Hey, can we take a break?" And maybe I get up there for a minute and the devil's like, "That's exactly what I thought."

3:17 Yeah. Exactly right. And it and it plays on the feeling that a lot of us have in Sunday school or equivalent that like you know that that

3:27 the character of God in the Bible is insufferable you know and I don't know if that plays into our topic today but I I have always noticed it and especially and I also really love the Cartman Land episode of South Park where Kyle's faith is challenged and so his parents tell him the story of Job

3:47 and he's like why would God do that to a good man. Why does he think this? And it's like, why would God do that? Cuz like Satan, you expect to like try and be a trickster, but the fact that God is like, hey, yeah, I should ruin this guy's life and see if he still praises me, that's a good use of my time. You're like, h the D the devil comes out looking comparatively good in that story because it's less of a betrayal from him. He's just an [ __ ] Yeah. Yeah. I Yeah. Anyway, watch watch the original Bedazzled. You don't need to watch that original Bedazzled,

4:25 the one made Frasier and Elizabeth. Yeah, you can watch that one. It's cute. It's fun if you want.

4:31 BUT YEAH, PETER COOK AND DUDLEY Moore are one of the great comedy duos. And I I do feel like the idea of just

4:36 the the trickster devil is so beautifully embodied there. And that it's interesting to me that the devil is kind of the trickster character and we took the trickster who's necessary in most cosmologic and made him

4:49 evil. A very different Yeah. A very different role to play. Yeah. Um so I don't know folks watch Bedazzled. It's more biblically accurate than Peter Teal's lecture on the Antichrist. I'll say that.

5:04 Feels so true. Yeah. So, I had planned Sarah for us to get through the uh first one of Peter's le like the notes on his first lecture faster than we did because we didn't get through that even.

5:17 We might have to do like a dayong staged event doing that like four days talking about it.

5:24 Yeah, I'm ready. Yeah. Or I could just get this the Embaradero to host me while I talk for four days about Peter Teal's lectures on the Antichrist and why they're very silly. um people would go.

5:36 We're going to have to cut through the remainder of that first lecture before we get into who he thinks might be the antichrist.

5:43 Giving me a pretty clear sense of how unhinged this whole is. Good. I'm I'm glad we at least landed on that. So when we left left off with Peter, he was complaining that science promised to make us immortal and had it failed to deliver, which it didn't, but nonetheless. Next, Peter says that after the development of the atom bomb, quote, "Technology itself became apocalyptic." And in 1945, the National uh Committee on Atomic Information published One World or None, which is generally agreed to have been like the first atomic scare movie. Like this is the first like what if a nuclear war movie, right? Oh boy.

6:21 And the gist of this is that nukes were really dangerous and the only rational solution to a world in which everyone has nukes is a strong United Nations that can put an end to war and ensure nuclear weapons are never used and moss, right?

6:36 Yep. I would say I think most people would say like yeah it's pretty reasonable reaction to nukes

6:41 kind of a lot of Twilight Zone episodes as well. Pretty reasonable. Yeah. Really middle of the road concept. It's also Yeah, it's also this is also like a reaction to World War II where it's like we should probably have some sort of like international law. So like if a country is doing war crimes, there's some sort of mechanism

7:00 the United States from doing the things that we will choose to do again. Yeah. I mean we don't really do this. The ISIS I mean we we briefly Serbia we punish briefly uh but that's kind of it you know in terms of international law. I'm cutting things down a little bit, but we never This is not a thing that ever really happens, but it is a thing. Peter Teal is in a lot of ways a very old-fashioned kind of paranoid the UN is the devil. The antichrist wants the UN to take over the world kind of guy.

7:31 Hayden and Dr. Strange Love kind of a role that's so crucial in American politics.

7:36 And Dr. Strange Love is going to come up in a little bit here. You're going to hear what Peter thinks about that movie. But it's not it is he he tries to dress it up because he knows that like well cranks are the guys who think that any reasonable person can be like well the UN never came even anywhere close to being a one world government like at no point did it have even a fraction of that much power obviously

7:59 and if it did then you know they would have solved more problems you would think

8:03 maybe things would be better. Peter is that kind of a crank, but he he doesn't want you to think about that. So, he has to dress this up in like theological terms and [ __ ]

8:12 He can't just be the guy down at the feed store because really he's like, you know,

8:16 Dale from King of the Hill, but he has to make it seem important, right? And so, he says that, you know, this movie, One World or None, was the birth of when we started seeing technology itself as like apocalyptic, right? This is Peter is blaming basically the fact that we don't make scientific advancements anymore, you know, with this nuclear paranoia of this idea that like, well, technology is bad and that's why we're not progressing technologically.

8:46 Of course, and I I I feel like I've explained enough why this is all nonsense. Yeah.

8:50 Uh, also from a film history perspective, that's even wrong, cuz like what do you call Metropolis, baby?

8:57 Frankenstein. Yeah sure. Um I mean the movie and the book, but yeah, there's all there's so much we could critique about this, but I need to read you this next line.

9:09 Coincidentally, this is also when the Catholic Church stopped giving apocalyptic sermons.

9:14 Did it is that true? I don't know what the [ __ ] you're talking about because I went to I like my dad was Catholic. I didn't only go to Catholic church, but I went to Catholic church a good amount as a little kid. And I remember the priest talking about the end times and the second coming. It wasn't the only thing that certainly not as much of a focus in Catholicism. It is as it is in a lot of like evangelical Christian sects,

9:37 but it's not not talked about. He's like, Catholics aren't talking about it constantly and therefore they're not doing it at all.

9:45 Yeah. And like I guess my citation here is like I went to church as a kid. What the [ __ ] are you basing this on, Peter? Like that's just not true. And it's also like well Catholicism is just one chunk of Christianity. And a lot of Christian faiths and priests and pastors over the last 75 80 years have talked about the apocalypse in different ways. It's a common subject. I don't this whole this whole pillar of his belief system which is that people don't really talk about the antichrist or the apocalypse anymore outside of technology causing it is like

10:20 no. It's like in the late 20th century, people talked about it, you know, an unbelievable amount and like pretty consistently

10:30 and but you know, it's right. It just feels like he's arguing whatever he feels like he needs to in order to justify his the point he wants to make thing by thing. his his issue is that like all of the people who are pushing these secular apocalyptic fears about like fertility collapsing or bioweapons or AI uh are kind of playing into the real antichrist because the antichrist wants to stop technological progress, right? That's that's the argument he's making. Yes.

10:59 Fascinating. Um yeah, and he also plays Amish. Yeah. That or a leite, right? Um, now Peter the other thing I mean and that's really what he believes. He does believe the antichrist is a Levite and he also misunderstands Levites whatever he he also he goes on he's angry that he doesn't like secular apocalyptic fears uh cuz and he complains he lists that like oh regular people when they talk about the apocalypse they're always worried about like nukes or biological weapons or AI or you know the children of men fertility collapse and that's really incomplete. quote, "We should add the risk of the biblical Antichrist manifesting as a one world government.

11:38 Here, the secular maps neatly onto the theological, the one world state of the Antichrist on the other hand, and the no world of Armageddon." And like, first off, that's not really a risk because like there no one think no reasonable person thinks a one world government is anywhere close to a reality. Like

11:57 it's just not a realistic fear. Like even if that was a bad thing, it's not a realistic fear looking at the world today.

12:03 Yeah. And the whole this this idea that like oh the secular maps onto the theological. You've got the one world state of the Antichrist and then the no world of the of Armageddon. And like those things only map neatly if you're an idiot. One world or none is arguing in favor of a strong UN and a strong international criminal court to stop world leaders from doing crimes against humanity. That's not a one world state. Like the movie that he argues for is not advocating a one world state. And neither are most people who want a stronger UN or ICC. Basically 0% of people, including me, who support a stronger ICC want to one world state.

12:41 You just want there to be punishments for genocide, right? And in this case, it feels like people, including Peter Tail in this case, are betting themselves into pretzels to justify

12:54 their desire to get to kill whoever they want and call it morally good. Yeah. And I I think with Peter, because I don't think Peter's specifically all that motivated to kill specific groups of people, but I think Peter sees if there's an international criminal court, if there's a higher international law of any kind, then that means I'm bound by law somewhere. And that's wrong. That's fundamentally wrong for anyone to be able to punish me, Peter Teal, or hold me accountable for any of my actions whatsoever. That's the worst thing that I'm also the most powerful person in the world. Or I should be

13:27 and I should be because of how smart I am. But also, who will stop me? Someone please stop me. No, no one stop me.

13:35 Yeah, [ __ ] Peter. So, this next paragraph is I've said this several times. This is where things get really crazy, but this is where things get really crazy. This is where things get really crazy. It's been really crazy.

13:46 It's been pretty crazy, but it's going to it's about to be crazier. We should at least suspect that the apocalypse in our newspaper headlines is the apocalypse of the Bible. This is not mysticism, but simple extrapolation of human nature. Wisdom has not increased, even if information has. The one point on which the atheist and fundamentalist agree is that violence comes from God. The Christian, however, knows it comes from man. I know, right? What the [ __ ] are you? Wait, Peter, what

14:14 what are we saying? I I think Let me tell you what I think he's arguing here. I think he's saying that atheists obviously fundamentalists believe that all vi everything comes from God. So that includes all violence.

14:27 Atheists blame all violence on religion. Yeah, that makes sense when you put it that way.

14:33 I've I wasn't I was an angry atheist. I'm not an angry atheist anymore. I'm still more or less an atheist. I've never met an atheist who thinks all violence is caused by religion,

14:44 right? You know, I've never met a one. There's certainly capital looking at you, kid. Um, and a lot of other stuff.

14:51 Yeah. Some dude like murdering his wife cuz he doesn't want to pay alimony. That's not God. That kind of stuff happens. Like a [ __ ] a rapist committing rape isn't like God didn't make him do that, right? Like obviously there's rapists who do it through. Sorry. of just sort of male entitlement and just you know yeah there's anyway it's but it's like this is the kind of writing where it's like you have to kind of simplify everything into an eitheror it feels like right

15:16 which again is very eighth grade and it's it is very like it's like how a 12-year-old debate bro Christian kid talks about a like when I was a 12year-old right-wing debate bro this is how I thought about atheism right

15:31 but it's like a straw man that an adult wouldn't have it'such Hope not. An absurd idea, but both the atheist and the fundamentalist believe all violence comes from God.

15:41 Counter point. You've never talked to an atheist. I mean yeah no one thinks that

15:47 cuz you're 12. I don't even think I guess like fundamentalists would argue that everything comes from God or whatever. So, but yeah, but like even then I think most very few of them would phrase it that way even of the religious fundamentalists that I know. That's just a weird way to phrase anything. Like you're you're

16:03 well in any argument based on there being like a few key groups of people who all think the same thing as each other.

16:10 They all think this. Exactly. Yeah. And it's this weirdly enough this sentence of all of the reading I've done on Peter Teal and I have read extensively. I've read a lot of most of the interviews he's done over the years. I've read a lot of his own writing.

16:25 This is the thing that scares me most. This scares me more than any of his anti-democratic pimics where he's talking about the need for a dictatorship because the fact that he would think this and say this is evidence that there is a disconnect in his mind between what he thinks people believe and actual humanity. And that disconnect is so it it's very upsetting to me. Like that's scary how disconnected he is from reality. I would say

16:53 I I am upset by this. Yeah. Um, now from here, Peter argues that if we're heading for war or Armageddon, then it's not unre if it's reasonable to think that there might be an apocalyptic war, right? Then it's not unreasonable to worry that an antichrist might rise to power, promising to end wars and bring stability back, right? If it's reasonable to say we might have a war that ends humanity, it's not it's got to be reasonable also to say that the Antichrist might promise rise to power, promising to stop that war, right? Both of those are logical things.

17:24 And let's let's let's give him that. That's a nonsense point in and of itself, but let's pretend that makes sense.

17:31 Whatever. Peter somehow doesn't draw a connection from that to like, well, an antichrist might rise to power, promising to stop World War II. To the fact that Donald Trump, who he supported, got elected, promising to stop like literally saying, I will avoid World War II. If you vote for me, we'll stop having a we won't have World War II, but Kamla will lead us there

17:51 or Biden will lead us there. Like that literally is directly what Trump said. I'm not editorializing in any way.

17:57 I know. Yeah. You know this Peter, right? Like anyway, Peter just doesn't deal with this. Instead, he focuses,

18:04 right? Who's to say this thing that actually happened obviously isn't relevant.

18:09 Let's talk about how scary it would be if it it happened in an imaginary way so we could ignore the real way that it did just happen.

18:16 Won't that be fun? The the Bible literally says that many Christians, many believers will be tricked by the Antichrist when he rises to power promising to fix a lot of this [ __ ] And Donald I, Peter, literally believe the Antichrist will rise to power promising to stop World War II. Donald Trump rose to power promising to stop World War II. Obviously, none of this is worth talking about. Completely irrelevant. Instead, Peter now talks about two different like 80year-old novels about the Antichrist. from like the early 20th century. Both of which he brings the I I he summarizes them. I don't think we even need to talk about the novels because what he's what he's pointing out is that both of these novels about the antichrist and most antichrist narratives all have a plot hole, which is that they don't explain how the antichrist will actually seize power. Quote,

19:08 in late, which is like a weird thing to care about anyway, whatever. In late modernity, we finally have the answer to how the antichrist will rise to power by talking constantly of Armageddon or in secular terms of existential risk. He the antichrist why rides the wave of apocalyptic anxiety. Oppenheimer lamented we need new knowledge like we need a hole in the head. Nick Bostonramm has proposed preventative policing and global compute governance in his vulnerable world hypothesis. Aliser Yedkowsk's latest book is if anyone builds it, everyone dies. And Peter is saying all three of these guys are potential antichrists or servants of the antichrist, right? Because they're spreading as he gives this lecture series that's entirely about his apocalyptic beliefs.

19:55 He's saying these guys who are talking about Armageddon are all clearly agents of the Antichrist, if not the Antichrist themselves. because no one else would talk about the antichrist and the apo or the apocalypse so much

20:06 except him as he talks about the apocalypse except him. It's fine with him. And this whole thing is built on paradoxes because it's like we have to avoid a one world government by giving all of our power to a dictator who will protect us from basic another dictator question mark you know.

20:23 Yeah. Mhm. What do I Yeah. I And it's the funniest thing to me. We'll get to his other antichrist. AP the fact that he's like Aliser Yedcowski, maybe an antichrist, right? Certainly an agent of the antichrist.

20:40 We've made we've made fun of him on this show a lot, right? Like he's a he's an AI risk dude. And obviously I don't like AI. I don't but but not because the re like Yowski is like a rationalist

20:53 who believes in he's like a member of a cult kind of the leader of a cult based on these like deranged ideas of rationality and he thinks AI is dangerous because AI will become a god that and and it will any AI god we create will inevitably want to kill us all right

21:09 I mean it's dangerous enough in terms of taking all our jobs you know we can start with that yeah

21:14 no um he's not one of the it'll take our jobs thing. He doesn't care about artists making a living. Yedowski cares about like he believes that the Harlon Ellison short story, I have no mouth and I must but I must scream. That's how what he literally thinks AI will do. Right.

21:29 Before that, it'll take our jobs. It'll take our jobs. Exactly. Um and it's fun cuz like Peter Teal funded Yedkowski in his early career, his like rationalism and stuff. Like Peter gave this guy money and supported the growth of like the rationalist subculture in the Bay Area

21:50 and then he was like, "No, not that." No. Yeah. He's literally he says in his lecture that he thinks Yakowski is deranged now cuz Yudkowski's anti.

21:57 So he has a former mentee who then takes his ideas in a direction he doesn't like and he's like that guy

22:03 Uhhuh. could be the antichrist. I mean if nothing else doesn't the story make you feel better about your own beefs, you know?

22:10 Yeah. I I I do kind of think Garrison might be the antichrist, you know, my my my protege, one time protege. But yeah, that's separate.

22:18 One's protein not impossible. I Garrison is an perfect is the one you least suspect, you know, when you think about it. So

22:29 yeah. Yeah, it could be Sophie. It could be Sophie. I've I've I've accepted that a while ago.

22:34 I think it's Paul Pierce anyways. You think it's Paul Pierce? Okay, sure. Why not? Um, so this is kind of where I've decided to get into the most publicized feature of Peter's Antichrist lectures, which is his predictions as to what modern people might be the antichrist in disguise. So obviously Yedkowski, you know, is is at least in consideration I've never heard of, obviously,

23:00 right? This guy must be it. And Peter not only hates Yedkowski, he feels the need to analyze him as a possible antichrist because Yidkowsk's main claim to fame now is he's trying to like warn people about AI and stop AI development. And AI is the only thing that could give Peter a return on his financial investment commensurate to what he thinks he deserves. So obviously Yedowski is evil for trying to stop this stuff. You know, can we also appreciate that like even if you're, you know, like I don't think that the kind of person who wants to go to a four-part lecture series on the Antichrist is like my kind of person. But even so, I do feel like you would assume you were in for something

23:40 different than a guy being like, "Here are people I don't like personally and why I think they're the Antichrist." Like, that's taking it to another level.

23:50 You're like, "Oh, gee, I just expected a PowerPoint." That's what we're doing. Yeah. And it it's it's because basically Peter's primary claim here is that the Antichrist is anyone warning people about the apocalypse and trying to save the world. That's if that's not the Antichrist, that's an agent of the Antichrist, except for me. Except for me, obviously, and and Donald Trump, you know.

24:12 Um, so here's here's a quote from his first lecture. My thesis is that in the 17th and 18th century, the antichrist would have been a Dr. Strange Love, a scientist who did all this sort of crazy evil science in the 21st century. The antichrist is a lite who wants to stop all science. It's someone like Greta or Eliser Yedkows. He's Greta Tunberg. He says he specifically and he he'll go in later and be like, I don't think Yedowski is. He definitely thinks Greta Tunberg might be the antichrist. He very directly is clear about that. He thinks Greta Tunberg could be the antichrist.

24:48 What what what is it about her that so unnerves tyrants? I mean, I guess the fact that she's, you know, very uh smart and impossible, corrupt. Yeah. The truth. speaking the truth to power. She's proved to I mean honestly like I I I I think we've I I I've been just shocked at how continually good her takes have been just because like anytime someone gets famous that famous that young

25:18 like you expect okay at some point they're going to like either buy into a conspiracy theory or get something get get something weird and she's just like really consistently got a great head on her shoulders. Um,

25:33 yeah. And so I that scares the hell out of them. Yeah. Right. And and can't be convinced to to look away, which I do feel like, you know, it everything you've been talking about it. I mean, we've been joking about it, but so much of it is like, what in the world is that thing? Look away. Let me do a little slight of hand over here. It's just parlor tricks. I think fundamentally why they why he hates her and why she is hated by a lot of these guys so much is not that they're scared of the dare because obviously she doesn't have any power.

26:06 She's like somewhat influential but she can't she's not going to throw Peter Teal in prison or destroy. She simply does not. She's just a person with morals. Yeah.

26:17 She's just a person with morals and basically zero real world power. Yeah. But she is emblematic and embodies a fact which is that I'm not a believer in oh justice will win out the bark the arc of history bins towards like I don't I think that's a silly stance but

26:35 inevitably in the future if there are people they will realize that Peter Teal and all of his ilk during this period of time were deranged monsters who destroyed the environment and who allow and who fought viciously against any attempts to reduce the harm humanity was doing to the biosphere in order to make themselves wealthier and they will be hated as a result. That's just a fact people because so many people will have died as a direct result of their actions and inactions. Yeah. Like I think Greta represents the reality that in the future

27:13 these people like won't you they won't be able to after especially after they're dead keep up the lie

27:20 that they were fighting against all this disinformation from the left and pretend you know the the climate change fake like that lie won't hold up at a certain point. Well, and that they're working so hard to create a mythology where like the story changes every day based on what needs to be true for them to be right and that that kind of mythology won't

27:38 perpetuate itself forever and keep protecting them. Yeah. Exactly. Like there will be a future in which the [ __ ] that they have spent their lives propping up is not widely believed. And that doesn't mean it'll be a perfect future or even a more just future. It just means that in the future people will know what a scumbag Peter was. And that's why he is so scared and hateful of her. Right.

28:02 Yeah. And also that he's gonna die and other people will get to live and sail around.

28:07 Yep. He's going to die probably sooner than he expects like most people. And a lot of folks are going to be happy because it'll be good when he dies.

28:17 Anyway, speaking of death, advertisements are a kind of death. That's what in in in in spa in French the the word for advertisement means the little death. And we're back. Yes. Uh talking about my flawless knowledge of French and talking about Peter Teal's belief that [ __ ] Greta Tunberg is the Antichrist. So

28:40 perfect it. Let's talk about this from a theological standpoint because one thing the book of Daniel is pretty clear about visav the antichrist is that the antichrist is a political leader of some sort. is described repeatedly as a prince or a king. Now, I could see being like, well, obviously that's if if we're going with the the Bible is true, but not always literally. You know, these are apocryphal stories. Okay, a king could be a standin for a president or a senator. Sure.

29:08 But a young lady who sometimes tries to deliver food on a boat, there's no that's not a there's no way to like describe Greta Tunberg as a king or a prince. Yeah,

29:21 same with Elijah. Like they're not political leaders. And the Antichrist definitely is. Like again, Peter's selective embrace of uh literal readings of the Bible here really biting them in the ass.

29:32 You're like, it's not very literal unless I need it to being so figurative that it completely goes in a new direction. Thank you. And I also love his fundamental like, oh, you don't understand Doctor Strange Love like the movie at all because the idea that like, well, in the 17th or 18th century, the Antichrist would have been Doctor Strange Love, right?

29:51 Well, no. Such a random strange love. Yeah. Right. For one thing, like in the movie of the same name, he's not a political leader. He's the president's scientific adviser and he's not responsible for the apocalypse at least not primarily right now the same actor

30:10 he's mainly delivering exposition right exactly yes and like it is true Peter Sers also plays the president right he plays he plays Dr. Strange Love and the president that Strange Love is advising. But even if you're saying, "Well, that means they're the same person." That does Peter Sers as the president being the Antichrist doesn't make sense in that movie cuz like

30:31 it's just embarrassing to misremember a movie in your big speech. It's so bad. Like you could rewatch it. You're writing a four-part lecture series, man. Also, in the 17th century, the Antichrist would not have been a character from a 1960s movie, but it would have been the Antichrist, just like the, you know, the devil's kid or whatever.

30:51 Yeah. It would have been a king or something, like the Bible, a text people knew better than a movie that wouldn't come out for 300 years.

30:59 I also think again, I don't maybe he hasn't even seen the movie because it sounds like Peter thinks Doctor Strange Love causes the apocalypse in the movie Doctor Strange Love. It's about it's about an atomic bomb and it's called Dr. Strange Love. So probably Doctor Strange Love made the bomb obviously. I mean I didn't have time to watch it but I deduced it because I'm so

31:17 That must be what happens. And like no for the record if you haven't seen it. Doctor Strange Love

31:23 is a mad scientist and a Nazi but he doesn't. There's a crazed US general who launches the initial nuclear strike and

31:31 as American as can be, right? And like the government like we try to reach out to the USSR in our bunker and are like these are where the missiles are coming in you know you can shoot them out of the sky like please we don't want to actually have a nuclear war this is a [ __ ] and the USSR is like oh well we actually built a doomsday device that will go off automatically and we can't stop it. Right.

31:53 Right. And the premise is like what if an American general lost his mind and there weren't adequate safeguards in place

32:00 Yes. before he could cause mutually assured destruction. And it's like, oh yeah, I guess. I mean, that's certainly not a problem we're having now,

32:09 right? Exactly. Certainly no more relevant now than it was back then. But it it's like neither the president nor Doctor Strange Love are antichrist figures. No one really is in the movie Doctor Strange Love actually.

32:23 Um like, but it's particularly weird to say Dr. Strange Love is the Antichrist cuz he doesn't incite the action like it that just isn't accurate.

32:35 Have you ever seen Cuz you know The Omen has two sequels and they're not that good. Oh god.

32:41 The second one has Sam Neil in it and he plays the adult Damian and he's like taken over the world and he's all charismatic and I think in politics and dating a newscaster lady.

32:51 Yeah. But the movie like doesn't really know what to have him be doing because it is like what would the antirist believe like what would his whole deal be you know like people are kind of like reluctant to state that. Um

33:07 and so it's like you get to sort of align it with whatever you know people already find threatening at that time which you know hence all the Obama stuff.

33:15 Yeah. Right. Right. Right. Exactly. Um, so the fact that, you know, he's listed Greta Tunberg and Alisa Yidcowski as possible antichrist, both of those things are insane. At least Tunberg, she is like popular. She has a lot of like followers and people who care about what she says. Alisa Yedkowski, he's got his little cult, but he's not.

33:37 You really, you think he's got the juice to even be on the list of potential antichrists? You're vastly overestimating this man's charisma. This weirdo charisma.

33:46 Thousand. No, no. I am a more realistic antichrist than [ __ ] Alisa Yedowski. Yes, Jeb is much closer.

33:55 Um, so uh after this in the second lecture, Peter apparently goes into more detail about his beliefs on the antichrist per the Guardian. Quote, Teal goes on to identify the legionnaires of the Antichrist as people like Elis Yakowski, Nick Bostonramm, and Greta Tunberg who argue for world government to stop science. So that's at least a little more realistic. He's like, "Well, maybe they're not the Antichrist, but they're at least his legionnaires." Oh my god. Okay, man. Um, and again, I I should I shouldn't have to say neither Yedkowski nor Tunberg nor Boston want to stop all science, right? They both have specific issues.

34:31 Exactly. They're very specific issues with specific technologies. But Peter can't stand that because again, they'll get in the way of his profit, right? Like that's really what this comes down to. I I it's it's very benal, but that is the truth of it. Peter goes on to say, "The legionaries of the Antichrist like Elicia Yadkowski, Nick Bostonram, and Greta Tunberg argue for world government to stop science. The Antichrist has somehow become anti-science. And no, they just don't." When the Washington Post reached out to Yedkowski for a statement, he replied, "My understanding is that authorities from multiple Christian denominations have stated that Teal's views identifying the Antichrist with proposals to regulate the AI industry are not deemed by them to be compatible with conventional Christian belief." It was one of his few statements that I'm like, "Yeah, that's a good response."

35:17 Yeah. I mean, that's the nice thing about standing next to someone who's completely off their cracker. You get to seem a little bit more normal.

35:25 Very seemed much more reasonable. Now, I will say Greta's response was much better because her spokespeople, whoever that whoever the post reached out to on her team didn't comment, which is the best response to Peter Teal declaring you the Antichrist or one of his legionaries. It's just don't there's What? What are you going to say?

35:44 You really shouldn't have to issue a statement saying you're not the antichrist whenever someone accuses you of it. Or else, you know, no one would ever get anything done in this country.

35:53 Or I guess I feel like I if I was in that boat, I would be like, "Yes, Peter. I am the antichrist and I'm I'm coming for your soul, buddy. Like I talked with the devil and we have a plan for you. You don't even know how we're how we're ins snaring you. We got you, baby. We got you." Now, at the same time in his second lecture, Peter talks about his Levite Antichrist candidates like right while he's doing that, he floats another name as a potential antichrist briefly before kind of explaining why he doesn't think this guy's the antichrist. And that name is Mark Andre. Now, Mark Andre is the co-founder of Anderson Horowitz.

36:31 Uh he is a fellow big tech AI venture capitalist ghoul. And actually, I'd be like, yeah, Mark Andre not a bad Antichrist candidate. He is evil. Um, but Peter hates him. Not because he's a monster trying to destroy all art and human culture and replace it with AI slop, which is literally what Mark Andre wants, right? That's his stated goal. Um, Mark is the author of something called the technoptimist manifesto, which argues that AI will solve all problems, including like climate change. All of our serious life-threatening issues will be solved by a super intelligent AI. Therefore, anyone who tries to slow or stop AI development is evil and needs to be destroyed, killed if necessary is the is what you're is insinuated heavily. Not directly stated, but like

37:18 anything you can do to stop the people who are anti- AI is justified because they're trying to kill God, you know.

37:25 Um that's Mark Andre and a lot of really wellbalanced people with a lot of power in this world is what I'm learning more

37:32 billionaires. All of them. All of them sane. And it's funny to me that as nuts as he is about this, Peter recognizes how crazy Mark is because his his issue with Mark Andrees is that his he he's he's putting out gobbledegook AI propaganda.

37:46 Fair enough. And this I mean he is cuz Yeah, I think his issue is Yudkowsk's anti- AI stuff is that it will inevitably could become a god that's evil. And Andre is just like the opposite where he's like it will inevitably become a god but good, right? And so I I guess Peter rejects both of them. Yeah. Um, but he says this when he brings up Mark in the context of the antichrist. It's not Andre, by the way. I think Andre is not the antichrist because, you know, the antichrist is popular,

38:15 but I thoughtful, but I thought I'd say his name and the word antichrist in the same sentence several times. I didn't need to bring it up. Right. Uh, next he goes on to Bill Gates, uh, who he he notes, you know, it's reasonable to put him on the list, but he thinks Gates is ultimately unlikely to be the Antichrist, even though he describes him as a Dr. Jackekal and Mr. Hyde type character whose positive public face is just a mask. Quote, Peter, I saw the Mr. Hyde version about a year ago where it was just a non-stop Tourette's yelling swear words, almost incomprehensible what was going on. And I I don't have trouble believing that Bill Gates is a dick.

38:51 Yeah, I'll give you that, Peter. I'll give you that. I'll give you that. I don't have trouble believing he's a Jacqueline Hyde. Clearly, his wife left for after the Epstein stuff for a good reason, you know.

39:02 Now, as I noted, reporters with the Guardian, namely Joanna Buen, Derek uh K, and Nick Robbins early actually got trans like all seven hours of Peter's Antichrist lectures and listened to them, which I have not been able to do yet. Maybe one day. Um, and on the subject of Bill Gates in their article, they write something very funny. Ultimately, Teal concedes Gates cannot be the Antichrist, bringing up the topic more than once.

39:30 He's not a And here's that's so funny. He really is stuck on that. He's not a political leader. He's not broadly popular. And again, perhaps to Gates's credit, he's still stuck in the 18th century alongside people like Richard Dawkins who believe that science and atheism are compatible.

39:45 What? And that's fundamentally he believes well because being anti-science is what makes you the antichrist. So that must mean that you can't be pro-science and not Christian.

39:54 Okay, it's actually impossible. Walk it off. This is where walk it off, Peter. This is disordered thinking. This is like

40:02 there's something actually wrong here. This is like if he weren't a billionaire, his his family would be like, "Hey buddy, do you want to should we try for you bud?

40:13 Yeah. You want to go? more research. Yeah, it's something to take your mind off the crazy.

40:21 Doing a bit more research around this area in the drawer. Yeah, we'll we'll come back to this tomorrow, Peter. Maybe we'll we'll keep working on this.

40:30 We have some hot soup. Yeah, some soup, maybe a cup of coffee, you know, maybe some tea. Caffeine's probably bad for you right now, huh? Yeah, you're going on a real rant for a while.

40:42 But then if you're you've been screaming about Bill Gates for 45 minutes. Yeah. But I guess like part of the great American dream of becoming a billionaire is that no one can tell you how crazy you sound. You know,

40:53 that's the whole and that Yeah, that's part of why they're angry at the people they're angry at.

40:58 And doing a bit more research around this area makes it very clear why Peter Teal hates Bill Gates so much. Aside from the fact that Gates seems to annoy a lot of people in general by being a

41:07 dick, you know, Microsoft Word had some, you know, some some tricky areas, let's say.

41:13 Sure. Yeah. But it can't just be that because Teal is friends with Elon Musk. So, the fact that Bill Gates is just an [ __ ] can't explain it, right?

41:21 So, and I think I figured out what it is, which is that Bill Gates has made a big public show of wanting to give away and convince other billionaires to give away most of their fortunes before they die, right? Like that's a big

41:34 Gates Foundation without which I would not have probably gotten to hear Morning Edition for many years.

41:40 There you go. Yeah. My uh my my ex-wife wouldn't have had a laptop in elementary school, you know. Um

41:47 yeah, so I I think that's really his issue with Gates. And I I think that in part because of uh what I found in a Washington Post article because the Post also got access to the tapes. In an article by Natasha Tiki, Elizabeth Dwashkin, and Garrett Dink, uh they wrote this. The investor Teal said he recently encouraged Musk to reneg on his 2012 commitment to the giving pledge movement co-founded by Gates, which asks wealthy people to commit the majority of their fortune to charitable causes, according to the recordings. And this is Teal here. 200 billion, if you're not going to be careful, is going to left-wing nonprofits that are going to be chosen by Bill Gates. Teal said he warned Musk, according to the recording, painting the philanthropist as among the malevolent forces besetting technologists.

42:31 So that's his hatred of Gates. Gates wants to billionaires to give away their money to these evil leftwing causes.

42:37 Too many modern dance troops, therefore, right? Antichrist. It's like you need to have standards for your Antichrist behavior. I got to say,

42:47 yeah, and it does, you know, Teal's positive on Musk now, I think, because Musk is useful. He also in this lecture series has nice things to say about JD Vance, whose political career he paid to get off the ground.

42:59 Uh, per Maggie DRI, writing for futurism, Teal quote, described himself as very pro- Vice President JD Vance, to whom Teal has given millions in campaign funds, though he did express that he's concerned. Yeah, he did express that he's concerned the VP who's Catholic might give too much credence to the pope.

43:17 The place that I would worry about is that he's too close to the Pope, said Teal per the Guardian. And so we have all these reports of fights between him and the Pope. I hope there are a lot more. And that's like

43:28 my issue with JD Vans is that he might be a papist. Okay, great. Well, we've gone back to Puritanism in this country. We have to worry about papistry now on top of everything else. It's also like I mean look I'm I I don't believe in Antichrist stuff. I never have. I'm not a devil believer, you know, which is part of my interest in the satanic panic, which it just seems like extra wild when you're not afraid of Satan yourself.

43:56 Um I'm I grew up afraid of a lot of things. I was afraid of the Bermuda Triangle, but I wasn't afraid of Satan. Um because that just wasn't didn't seem relevant to my life. Um

44:06 it's not a real thing. Like if I were to pick an antichrist today, it would obviously be Trump. Like he's really behaving very Antichristy. And it's just so funny to have him leading a party that has become so much about, you know, this kind of death cult and Armageddonism. And they're like, "But not you, sir." And it's like, but but just look at it.

44:29 Not the obvious guy. Yeah. Like and it's again like even the things you name in this are clearly more relevant to Trump than Greta Dunberg or whatever. I mean

44:39 um yeah uh now outside of this frankly unhinged lecture series back in June Peter gave an interview to Ross uh Duthat Del whatever however you say his [ __ ] last name at the New York Times and Ross he's one of the worst writers alive. He used to be the senior editor of The Atlantic and I think he might be the most up his own ass conservative writer in the country. He was Bill Crystal's replacement and massive downgrade for Bill Crystal even. Uh he's both entirely uncritical of big tech and pro everyone should be religious. And so he and Peter Teal are peas in a pod. And during that interview, Ross asks what Peter thinks about the techno optimist manifesto that Mark Andrees self-published in 2023. Um, and again, that's basically saying we have to accelerate at all costs the growth of AI cuz it will solve all of our problems.

45:30 So, slowing things down is AI down is the same as committing mass murder. Oh my god.

45:34 Um, yeah. And this studio Gibllyesque portraits of your husband that will never be drawn.

45:42 Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. It's a face worse a fate worse than death for all of us. And the fact that like the document is generally considered to be a foundational text for effective accelerationism. You know, that's kind of the thought the philosophical name for what Andrees is preaching. And that's close to what Peter Teal advocates because he's literally arguing that Greta Tunberg might be the antichrist or is at least furthering the Antichrist agenda because she's skeptical about AI and fossil fuels and [ __ ]

46:09 Then I'm the antichrist, too. Congratulations to me. Like Teal definitely thinks the same way, but I think he's incapable. I think why he has to reject Andre is that he can't speak positively about a peer with the same ideas if they had if they put those ideas down first. And so he says this about the essay.

46:31 It represents a kind of corporate utopianism. In the 1990s, there was a broad cultural optimism that technology would solve everything. But by 2025, that optimism has shrunk. Today's visions are narrower, less inclusive, and less confident. The grand utopian projects have given away to incremental gains overshadowed by fears of collapse.

46:48 Oh, and that's accurate. But like the problem again, he's not capable of like looking what he's literally saying. The visions are narrower, the optimism has shrunk. That doesn't mean that like things we're not making technological progress, but it does mean that like there's a problem in how people are

47:11 visualizing progress, right? Yeah. And it's like perhaps people are more pessimistic and perhaps even more reasonable because

47:19 of how horrible everything's been for the last 30 years. Exactly. Um, I realized that in the '9s it was a utopian time when Starbucks had like big upholstered chairs in them and you could sit there for a long time and he could buy your Nor CDs, but that's over, man.

47:36 Yeah. Right. And the the article is just a great example. There's so much Ross just lets Peter say nonsense without ever questioning him. It's like it's one of the worst interview.

47:46 He's accidentally a great interviewer by being a terrible interviewer because he just lets him say stupid stuff.

47:52 You do. Yeah, you do get more out. There's no like Peter drops the line again. He he makes the claim that like after 1945 churches stopped preaching end times sermons and like

48:01 really where did all those behind movies come from? No, the Left Behind books massively popular Peter like and had nothing to do with technology by the way. That's not how the anti like I mean surveillance tech I guess but the antichrist doesn't rise to power on the back of fears about [ __ ] AI or whatever. Anyway, I don't know how Peter can think this true. I don't know how Ross can't question any of this other than Ross is just like the [ __ ] bootlickeriest bootlicker who ever looked a goddamn

48:31 I hear you got some good blood for me later on. Right. One of the weirdest things to me here is that like Ross is theoretically a Christian. He's a big CS Lewis fan and Peter is theoretically a Christian. But then in this interview, Peter describes the choice presented by the Bible in the book of Revelations as Antichrist or Armageddon and that this is unacceptable. And thus, quote, we must find a third path, right?

48:59 It's me, which is like, no, it doesn't. That's not like for one thing, the Bible doesn't present a choice. It just says there's an antichrist and that leads to the second coming and an Armageddon

49:13 and everything's going to get all weird and then people are going to get up out of their graves. It's going to be wacky, you guys. Yeah.

49:20 It's not like you have an option to change that if you're going to believe it. You have to just like,

49:24 you know, God knows no one has ever been selective about their beliefs as a Christian.

49:29 Yeah. It's this both that like Ross doesn't question Peter on this. Yeah. And also

49:36 this is so heretical like I'm not a I don't care personally. Don't you think it's like weirdly become like a tenant of modern sort of American

49:46 I don't know like political Protestantism I guess that like we allow people a much freer hand in terms of doing their own interpretations than

49:59 Absolutely. Yeah. It seems like things have gotten a little bit over the top. I mean, and that's that is definitely true that like we like that's that's a major factor in like the birth of Protestantism, right? Is this idea this this this ongoing thing that like well anyone can be a priest or a pastor, anyone can speak the word, right? And like widening the circle of things at a certain point,

50:22 anyone can interpret the Bible. Sure. But even so, I it is kind of very fundamentally heretical to be like the Bible says there's we have to choose between, you know, the antichrist, the apocalypse, but I think there's a third way cuz Peter is literally saying I think we can avoid the biblical apocalypse by getting our politics right.

50:43 I mean, actually, aren't we're kind of getting into Joseph Smith territory, right? Where you're like, I believe in the Bible, but also I'm adding

50:51 a run. Yeah. I think we I I think we can rewrite the ending of the Bible. I need to have sex with your wife.

50:59 Yeah. Yeah. It's It's weird, right? And especially because Peter describes himself as a little oorth orthodox Christian, which like this is not anywhere close to orthodoxy, right? The idea that you're arguing God might let us avoid having an antichrist and an Armageddon and still live forever. That's not Christian theology. That's Peter theology.

51:22 You're right. It's like getting into you're starting to found your own religion at that point which you know you certainly have the resources.

51:28 That's that's I would argue what act 17 is doing is they are not spreading Christianity to Silicon Valley elites. They are creating a new like a Mormonism for rich people.

51:41 They're hybridizing Christianity with like Silicon Valley billionaire culture. Oh no. No. That's the Antichrist. The cursed child of two evil parents. antist of Christ. Um, and it is kind of weird to me. Part of what's strange to is that like he wants to avoid the biblical apocalypse. And I think what that means is that Peter Teal is so clearly scared of death that he can't even embrace everlasting life. Like he would prefer he vastly would prefer some scientist keeps his body alive than like

52:18 Jesus ensures him eternal life in heaven. He's like I believe in you God but stay the [ __ ] away.

52:24 Yeah. Mhm. The most reasonable thing that I've, you know, theorized him thinking this whole time in a way.

52:32 Yeah. And also it's like it's this thing of like you know because I do feel like if you look at sort of the sum of human experience it's like

52:42 organized religion facilitates a lot of horror and a lot of evil and it also facilitates a lot of structure and a lot of uh just a lot of stability in people's lives and I think one of the positive elements of it is the feeling of allowing yourself to not be in control and sort of believing in something not, you know, not even necessarily a higher power, like it's a 12 steps kind of a thing. Although that certainly

53:10 uh is helpful for a lot of people, too, because the sort of like the ability to believe in something

53:16 beyond yourself and to sort of maybe use religion to get out of the human urge towards solopsism. And it feels like this is like, no, I'm actually using religion to become more self-centered than ever. Isn't that great? Right.

53:32 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's it's just like the idea that Yeah. you're you're so scared of death that you can't even

53:40 even the idea of heaven it has to be avoided. We have to find a fix for that. Yeah.

53:46 Right. Death becomes her. Yeah. You know, person just walking around getting hairline fractures and gluing himself back together. And again, Ross, who is a useless thinker and a useless writer and a waste of columns for the you the New York Times, can't even question that. There's only one really valuable thing about the article that he writes interviewing Teal, which is that it includes a fascinating segment where Peter talks about his early attempts to secure eternal life for himself. And I'm just going to read I'm going to read a long quote from the interview here.

54:18 Please do. Peter, I remember 1999 or 2000 when we were running PayPal. One of my co-founders, Luke Nosk, he was into Alor and cryionics and that people should freeze themselves. And we had one day where we took the whole company to a freezing party. You know, a Tupperware party people sell Tupperware policies. At a freezing party, they sell and Ross butts in here. Was it just your heads? What was going to be frozen? Teal, you could get a full body or just a head. Ross, the just ahead option was cheaper. Teal, it was disturbing when the dot matrix printer didn't quite work and the so the freezing policies couldn't be printed out.

54:56 I miss printers. That's funny. I think a critical and thoughtful interviewer might have said something like, "Hey, it kind of seems like a lot of companies in the life extension space, like the guys who were selling youthful blood to inject into your body, are like questionable and sketchy and maybe conmen." Has repeatedly encountering stuff that doesn't work or is sketchy, like Alor not being able to make a printer work, has any of that made you re-evaluate whether or not you're just falling for a series of cons like the old pharaohs of Egypt taking [ __ ] strick nine or whatever to make themselves live forever or like are you still good? You still you still following all that?

55:34 Like Ross doesn't ask this at all. No. Uh, instead when Peter talks about how this cryionics company couldn't even get a printer to work, Ross nonsensically adds technological stagnation once again, right? No.

55:48 Which is like, no, that's not what that's an example of at all. Period. But Peter responds, but in he kind of ignores Ross, but in retrospect, it's also a symptom of the decline because in 1999, this was not a mainstream view, but there was still a fringe boomer view where they still believed that they could live forever. And that was the last generation. So, I'm always anti- boomer, but maybe there's something we've lost even with this fringe boomer narcissism where there were at least a few boomers who still believed science would cure all their diseases. No one who's a millennial believes that anymore.

56:17 I don't even know what that aside was about. What What is that even about? So, you're anti- boomer cuz they thought they could live forever, but you can.

56:25 Yeah. Yeah. Or just like, you know, say more about what what did it feel like to think about getting your head saw off

56:32 by these people? How much did did just the head cost versus the body? Say more about that.

56:38 Right. Exactly. Would they give you someone else's limbs or put you on a big robot body like Robocop?

56:45 Right. So, we're we're almost done here. I want to I want to end by uh talking a little bit more about Renee Gerard and uh and Schmidt uh and some of some of Teal's philosophical beliefs. But first, let's have an ad. So, we're back and I talked up at the start about Carl Schmidt, who's the the Nazi philosopher who discussed how to destroy democracies in a way that Peter Teal followed. And Rene Gerard, who is this he's this big belief in sort of like this mimemetic theory of like uh like mimemetic rivalry, right? Where like people once they cover their basic needs still want things and so they kind of pick, well, what what does this other guy who seems to be doing better than me have? And they like that's kind of mimemetic rivalry. Uh but it doesn't make people happy. So they need scapegoats, you know. And Gerard's attitude was like Christianity brought an should have brought an end to that. It's certainly

57:41 evidence that we need to bring an end to that. It's bad to scapegoat groups of people. And Christ was kind of like that's why he was killed, right? He was made into a scapegoat. And that's like the final evidence that it's wrong to do that. You know, that's Gerard's attitude. Peter claims to be a major follower of Gerards and he's gone to a bunch of gatherings and in fact in 2004 he and one of his mentors organized a week-long seminar on Renee Gerard at Stanford and they they invited Gerard who was alive at the time and they also invited a scholar of Carl Schmidt who was also like a peer of Renee Gerard named Wolf Gang Palver who is Palver is one of Peter Teal's favorite intellectuals.

58:23 That's a hell of a name. Uh it's a quite a name and Teal is very like is a huge big fan of this guy and a major like uh like cites him quite frequently and has invited him to a number of these different events. Right. This 2004 seminar on Gerard is right after Peter Teal got rich after he like sold PayPal. So he he funds this thing and the theme of the conference is politics and the apocalypse. And the t like that theme was suggested by Wolf Gang Palver like while they were planning the event. So this is obviously it's a couple of years after 9/11 and people who are you know what you'd call mimemetic theorists these folks who like buy into a lot of Gerard's beliefs about mimedic rivalry are are trying to figure out like did the was 9/11 like an example of like planetary mimedic rivalry this like was it did it come out of anger from one part of the world at like all of the things that the west has that they don't

59:18 have which is very much kind of in line with like a lot of what Bush was saying you know Not exactly, but that you can see some pe they're jealous of our freedoms right?

59:27 So, kind of one of the questions that these these Gerard fans, these mimemetic, you know, theoreticians are talking about is like,

59:36 is that kind of ex does that explain what was going on there or is there something else for us to to to take out of this? And Teal's attitude was that the primary thing that 9/11 showed us is that the West can't protect itself. uh he wrote a paper right before this event in which he stated, "The brute facts of September 11th demand a re-examination of the foundations of modern politics. Today, mere self-preservation forces all of us to look at the world a new to think strange new thoughts and thereby to awaken from that long and profitable period of intellectual slumber and amnesia that is so misleadingly called the enlightenment." And his big attitude here is that like Osama bin Laden is thinking rationally in a modern political sense, but the West is not, right? And we haven't realized the actual nature of the fight.

1:00:26 And if Carl Schmidt were in charge of things, our response to 9/11, the just response would be to call for a crusade against Islam.

1:00:34 Right. Of course, like that's the rational response. It's very rational to try and eradicate a religion. I find generally.

1:00:41 Mhm. I mean, yeah. And that is like literally like Teal's argument is that like this is where this is like the fundamental irrationality that the West indulged in is not seeing it as a holy war as not seeing it as a fundamental clash of civilizations. We didn't do that enough which like I mean we did the people you would have supported then George W. Bush like that is how they framed it.

1:01:04 That's very much how Alan Jackson was describing the situation. It's again, he's like really recommending antichristy behavior. We must say I also realize I keep saying it like antipasto, but you know,

1:01:16 but I think that's the right. What if it was delicious? Yeah. What if the anti the antichrist tasted better? Um

1:01:23 what if there were some olives but was less filling at the same time? Just a nice cold snack on a summer's day, you know, when he

1:01:31 like a Kentucky cold snack. Yes, exactly. Um so Wolf Gang is like Peter is a huge fan of him specifically because of how Wolf Gang interpreted a lot of Carl Schmidt's writing and like some essays that he wrote on like what Carl Schmidt meant and kind of his like how his concept of the political functioned. Um, and that's what he bases a lot of his like well we we're doing the wrong things after 9/11 on is his ideas of like how Schmidt would have handled things instead. I want to quote from a write an article in Wired kind of summarizing uh this journey. Um, it would quickly become apparent that Teal had spent some time considering the paper Palver presented the day the two men met in 1998. The strange new thoughts Teal wanted his audience to entertain where, it turned out, largely those of Carl Schmidt. But where Palver had been repulsed, Teal extolled Schmidt's robust conception of the

1:02:22 political, in which humans are forced to choose between friends and enemies, and everything else is delusion. The high point of politics, Pabra quote Schmidt as saying, are the moments in which the enemy is in concrete clarity recognized as the enemy. In Teal's mind, Osama bin Laden was capable of this kind of politics. The West with its fetish for individual rights and procedures was not. So, Palav is quoting Schmidt as being like this guy believed that the high point in politics was the def the defining of an enemy, right? And getting a group of people, getting a community to recognize an enemy. And that's a lot of I mean that's where Schmidt kind of goes in with Gerard is they both had this concept of like scapegoating as being important. But Schmidt is like this is how you gain power. This is actually how you destroy democracy is by finding an enemy defining them as not part of the community and excising them

1:03:11 and continually push that barrier. Yeah. Right. And and Pav is saying that's what that's what Schmidt believed because he was bad. Right. and that that's like a like that's a an awful thing to believe, but like this is what Schmidt was advocating. And Teal is like, "No, that's awesome." And

1:03:32 Pav like their relationship over the last 20 years has been Paver gradually realizing Peter Teal likes him because he describes accurately what a monster believed and Peter Teal is the same kind of monster.

1:03:44 Um, yeah, what a fun day. It's It's awesome. Uh to continue from that wired article, Schmidt Teal conjectured would have responded to 9/11 by calling for a holy crusade against Islam, but the West was instead slipping beyond politics altogether. Teal seemed to fear towards the creation of a bland world embracing economic and technical organization. This was Schmidt's nightmare scenario in such a world. Teal Teal said a representation of reality might appear to replace reality. Instead of violent wars, there could be violent video games. Instead of heroic feats, there could be thrilling amusement park rides. Instead of serious thought, there could be intrigues of all sort as in a soap opera. But that counterfeit reality, Teal argued, would be just the brief harmony that prefigures the final catastrophe of the apocalypse. The harmony in Schmidt's telling of the Antichrist. Teal's discussion of Schmidt

1:04:32 didn't mention the the Hitler or the Nazis once. Irrelevant. Who cares? Great. Yeah. Why does it matter that this guy was a Nazi and arguing for Nazis? And what matters is that what he was we need to take his idea about picking an enemy. And it's actually a really bad thing if like people are playing video games instead of fighting in real wars. That like that is the path to the antichrist. Like we're replacing the c real heroism with fictional hero. It's a very fascist. If we don't become fascists, we're going to the we have to become fascists to protect ourselves from the antichrist.

1:05:08 Sweetie. Yeah. And kind of the the the conclusion Teal draws from Pavver's writing about Schmidt is that because Schmidt's fundamentally suggested like we have to have these dramatic solutions to the problem of like to deal with the enemy we have to purge them we kill them right a fight he's he's a Nazi right

1:05:29 um Teal pulls back from that but he s his solution is a you have to fortify the modern west and you can't do that through democracy right so You have to you have to hide you have to trick people into in order to get around democratic institutions because those aren't going to like you can't actually work through them. So uh instead of the instead I'm going to quote from teal directly. Instead of the United Nations filled with interminable and inconclusive parliamentary debates that resemble Shakespearean tales told by idiots, we should consider the secret coordination of the world's intelligence services as the decisive path to a truly global PAX Americana. In other words, what we need to do is develop

1:06:12 Yeah. No, no, no, no. Just a one world surveillance super system controlled by Peter Teal. Not a one world government. No, no, we need we do need Teal says a political framework that operates outside the checks and balances of representative democracy, but that's not a one world government, right? It's just a surveillance state that I'm in charge of.

1:06:31 So basically, he's saying it would be terrible if somebody did the things that I want to do myself. It has to be me.

1:06:37 Exactly. God. Uh yeah, it's it's awesome. Um, you know, and it it there's that Wired article does a really good job of talking about Palver's kind of dawning horror as he realizes that like he's been reading all these old papers of mine about Schmidt and taking but interpreting them as like this guy's awesome and I want to do all the things he's suggesting.

1:07:03 It's like when Oliver Stone realized guys were getting into finance cuz they loved his movie that they never saw the last quarter of apparently.

1:07:12 Yeah. And it's been like Gerardians in general, like people who are like like are followers of Renee Gerard and his intellectual tradition have like this has been kind of a a growing horror for a lot of them.

1:07:25 I think that probably should have started earlier cuz like it has often been said that Renee Gerard was kind of the inventor of the like button on Facebook. Um for good reason because Peter Teal has justified him betting on Facebook by saying quote I bet on mimmesis right like on on mimemetic this idea that like mimemetic rivalry is the underpinning of Facebook right it's the underpinning of social media the

1:07:52 I'm going to both people being jealous and wanting to imitate the lives of other people that they see on right

1:07:58 um and so people have been saying since the early 2000s that like Gerard is kind of Gerardian philosophy is kind of baked into a lot of the most toxic stuff about social media. But what really [ __ ] a lot of these people up is kind of more recently cuz JD when they saw JD Vance during the 2024 election start lying about Haitians

1:08:19 uh and like spreading knowingly spreading like lies about like Haitians eating dogs and stuff because this is classic scapegoating, right? And this is again Gerard was saying it's bad to do that. Vance, who calls himself a Gerardian, is clearly just saying like, "Oh, Gerard kind of explained how scapegoating works." And I like that.

1:08:39 It feels like reading a book on or an article on child abuse and like the psychological effects that like beating your child has on them. And your takeaway is like, "Wow, if I beat my child, they're going to be a lot more obedient and do more chores. I'm going to do that."

1:08:53 Hey everybody, this article says you should beat your child. And the person who wrote it is like, "What?"

1:09:00 Yeah. Exactly. And it's this it's so like I I'll quote like here's because Vance has directly stated that coming to understand Gerard influenced his Christianity. Um quote

1:09:12 yeah he spoke of mimemetic he his theory of mic rivalry that we tend to compete over the things that other people want spoke directly to some of the pressures I experienced at Yale. But it was his related theory of the scapegoat and what it revealed about Christianity that made me reconsider my faith. It made me realize that I could be a Christian and an absolute dickwad who didn't care about human beings or human suffering. And that was very inspiring to me.

1:09:36 Yeah. Garrett saying Christ was killed because he was turned into a scapegoat by these powers, you know, doing the thing that that authoritarian monsters always do, which is create and destroy scapegoats to distract people from the fact that the system is unjust and making them unhappy. And Vance is like, "Yeah, this changed like the idea of Christ as a scapegoat. Made me realize that I could lie about Haitians to become THE VICE PRESIDENT." LIKE THAT'S basically what Vance is saying.

1:10:06 That's nice. That good for Yeah. It's that there are um Vance could have had less education and would have been just fine.

1:10:17 Yeah. Less access to education for one Apple action, right? To continue from that wired article, for some Gerardians, this was a breaking point. The mimemetic theorist Bernard Pereé lambasted Vance and his billionaire mentor in a French political journal, accusing them of casting a shadow over Gerard's legacy. Within months, several more prominent Gerardians followed suit. "It's difficult to claim Gerard, who fundamentally believes that violence is linked to exclusion, and at the same time accuse Haitians of eating dogs."

1:10:44 Gerardian scholar Paul De Moche told a Canadian newspaper, "Either you didn't understand, Gerard, or you're a liar." Um, and I guess this is where we'll kind of close, you know,

1:10:56 calling the burn unit for Peter Teal in this very satisfying little way, right? And JD Vance. Yeah. This little I mean, [ __ ] Palvers apparently.

1:11:05 Yeah. Emmailed him a few times being like, "How are you okay with this?" You know, how is anyone okay with this? And it's like they may have way too much power and it may be horrifying to contemplate, but

1:11:17 nothing will ever make them less idiotic than they clearly are. And there's something nice about that. It's scary, but at least we can feel

1:11:26 superior. Yeah, there's a there's a good bit at the end of that wired piece um where I think Pavver kind of reveals that he has Teal's number um to understand like sorry what what I've observed are traces of deep fear he told me fear of death fear of terrorism and it all comes down to a lack of trust and a craving for security there are so many cases where he expresses fears and concerns and need for protection Pavver says and if your main thing is seeking protection you play with fire.

1:11:58 Huh. And I guess that's that's kind of where head. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I would say it's Peter can recognize that fears of uh the apocalypse and the end of days could allow an antichrist to take power, but doesn't understand that in his own life, your own fear of that is leading you to embrace what is effectively the antichrist. Right? You're so scared of dying that you are embracing apocalyptic like just extremely danger. You're playing with fire. You are you are embracing authoritarianism. You are welcoming the antichrist in because you're so scared of death.

1:12:39 And there you go. And because you're so rich, everyone else has to welcome the antichrist along with you apparently. and none of your weird med none of your weird like hoax medicine attempts to extend your life have proven to work and you're just going to blame Greta Tunberg by saying she's anti-science because you can't just acknowledge that the thing you wanted is something that rich powerful people have always wanted and never gotten cuz it's impossible

1:13:07 and you're no different from the pharaohs and they're never going to get it nope you will die and be forgotten too

1:13:14 that's kind of Nice. That's good. It's good. That's why I'm fundamentally optimistic because of death, right? I think it's a good thing in the long run that people die and that we're never going to like immortality is not real, right? I don't get

1:13:29 people are ever going to be around forever and a lot of them are going to like No, nothing will be

1:13:34 choke on a bit of toffee or something. And sure, you know, not enough of them, but yeah.

1:13:40 No, not enough. But they all something will get all of them like it will everyone. And that's good. It's good that people die. If if someone actually created an immortality cure, uh I would I would want to stop that. I think that that's broadly I don't think it's possible. It's a silly thing to even

1:13:58 also like even if it would be bad if it was real exist for like the worst people in the world, you know?

1:14:05 Exactly. Yes. And it would be the end of progress fundamentally if like people stopped dying, you know, like that's just it's it's not even good theoretically.

1:14:15 I get people get angry whenever I bring this up where they're like, "So you don't want to cure cancer?" I'm like, "If you cure cancer, people will still die,

1:14:21 right? You won't cure cancer." Also, there's like 8 million cancers to cure. You know, you just pick one and keep going until you bingo. No, I I believe if we do cure if we were to cure all of the current cancers, then we would start seeing different weird cancers that people don't get right now because they just don't live long enough for them to happen, but we'll keep experiencing new

1:14:43 cancers. The like biblical patriarch 800year-old guy cancer, right? Yeah. Also, it's like think about how bored people are now and how much more bored we would be if we were immortal, you know?

1:14:58 Yeah. Again, that's the thing and that's the thing Gerard like that's kind of something Gerard was dealing with is like this, you know, when people's needs are met

1:15:06 and they're still unhappy. God, imagine the trouble we would cause for each other if we lived forever.

1:15:13 And yeah, how much how much worse mimemetic rivalry would be. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

1:15:18 Yeah. Um, cool. Well, well, thanks for telling me about someone so horrible and embarrassing that they I have come around here moral of

1:15:29 well, let's embrace death because at least he's going to get that guy. Huh? Yeah. I love it.

1:15:34 Yeah. Let's embrace death. Like, let's all cheer death on as it goes after Peter Teal.

1:15:40 Yeah. Um death wielding a sickle like a polo mallet galloping towards another billionaire.

1:15:47 Yeah, exactly. Um, you know, and let's all encourage Peter Teal to explore the ocean floor like those other guys.

1:15:56 I hear there's a lot of good stuff still down there. You could find those other guys

1:16:01 and bring up their vaporized remains. You can save them. They're No, they're they're all they need to be rescued. They're all still down there.

1:16:07 Party. Only you, Peter. Only you can save them. Yeah. Uh, the Antichrist is down there. pluggables before we roll out here.

1:16:20 Yeah. Um, so well I uh you can find me at my show You're Wrong About, where we talk about the folly of man and iconic bimbos and misunderstood history and all kinds of fun stuff. And uh also my new show, The Devil You Know, which is from CBC podcasts. You can find it wherever you listen to podcasts. And it's about the satanic panic and also all the horrible things that people do and use Satan as an excuse to do, which is of course very relevant to today. And it's uh we got to talk to some amazing people and I'm so happy to get to share their stories with everybody.

1:16:59 I'm happy to uh both for that and because the episode is over and so I get to not work anymore. All right, everybody.

1:17:07 You stop working, too. I don't care what you're doing. If you're a heart surgeon listening to this, cut. Stop. Walk away.

1:17:14 Walk away. Are you raising a bridge? Get out of there. Pilot, jump out of the plane. You know, put on your put on your backpack with the thing in it and and get out of there. Everyone, quit working right now.

1:17:25 If it's that'll be fine. What Whatever Robert Antichrist Evan says. Here we go.

1:17:32 If you're the Antichrist, stop antichristing this minute. Get a foot back. I would be such a good Antichrist. Uh yeah, but unfortunately Greta Tunberg took the job from me. You know,

1:17:44 she's pretty good, too. The podcast is over.

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "Part Two: Peter Thiel and the Anti-Christ | BEHIND THE BASTARDS"?

Robert Evans (Host), Sarah Marshall (Guest).

What is "Part Two: Peter Thiel and the Anti-Christ | BEHIND THE BASTARDS" about?

The discussion centers around Peter Thiel's controversial views on the Antichrist, exploring his beliefs and the implications of these ideas. The conversation also touches on broader themes of societal fear, particularly relating to the satanic panic, as highlighted by guest Sarah Marshall's new podcast tackling the historical and contemporary impacts of such fears.

What is mentioned in this Behind the Bastards episode?

9 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Dr. Strangelove, Sarah Marshall, Carl Schmitt, You're Wrong About, Rene Girard, One World or None. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "Part Two: Peter Thiel and the Anti-Christ | BEHIND THE BASTARDS"?

The episode runs 1 h 18 min; the transcript is about 14,569 words in 285 timestamped sections.

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