Transcript

EP7 - We Need To Bring In An Expert

From BETH'S DEAD · Episode page · Watch on YouTube

· 50 min · 8,044 words · 160 timestamped sections

This is the full, timestamped transcript of "EP7 - We Need To Bring In An Expert", an episode of BETH'S DEAD published December 4, 2025 (50 min, about 8,044 words). It mentions 35 people, works and ideas, including Machiavellianism, Narcissism, Sadism, Online dating, Totally Lame and Totally Married.

What this episode is about

In this episode, the hosts explore the complexities of catfishing by consulting a catfishing expert and a private investigator to better understand the psychology behind such deceitful behavior. They aim to gather crucial insights and data to inform their next steps in a case involving potential contact with an individual of interest.

Key takeaways

  • Catfishers aren't just after cash; sometimes, it's the thrill of deception.
  • Not all catfishers are shady figures; some hide in academia.
  • Eight characters, one person: catfishers often craft entire fictional worlds.
  • More than scams: catfishing unveils the dark allure of anonymity.
  • Cyber psychology: where human behavior meets the wild west of the web.

Who speaks in this episode?

What is discussed, and when

  1. – 5:00: Avita March, Beth's Dead, Cyber psychology, Cyberstalking
  2. – 10:00: $3.5 million, Category deception, Identity concealment, Impersonation
  3. – 15:00: Narcissism, Sadism, Alicia Kay, Carly Ryan
  4. – 20:00: Narcissism, Parasocial Relationship, Online dating, Sadism
  5. – 25:00: Narcissism, Sadism
  6. – 30:00: Domestic Abuse, Love bombing, Online dating
  7. – 35:00: Digital literacy, Privacy functions
  8. – 40:00: Alex Anderson, Cult leader, Manifesto
  9. – 45:00: Be Best, Totally Lame and Totally Married
  10. – 50:00: Totally Lame and Totally Married, Be Best, patreon.com/bestdeed

Notable quotes from "EP7 - We Need To Bring In An Expert"

  • Welcome to Beth's Dead episode 7. I'm Monica Padman and I'm here, per usual, with Elizabeth and Andy.
    about Beth's Dead · at
  • But first, let's talk to our catfishing expert. she's an associate professor and her name is Avita March.
    about Avita March · at
  • Category deception. This is considered rather innocuous. Category deception could be like creating an online dating profile and clicking that you're average weight rather than…
    about Online dating · at
  • So we were interested in assessing narcissism. So egoism, a sense of superiority, psychopathy, so being impulsive, a lack of guilt, personal responsibility for your actions, a lack of empathy as well or I should say.
    about Narcissism · at
  • Podcasts that have come up in the last 10 years there's like also these parasocial relationships that start happening and to me the two are so closely linked when you're in these parasocial relationships you can feel entitled.
    about Parasocial Relationship · at
  • Yeah. Yes. I am a very strong advocate as well for embedding more digital literacy in or education programs for younger adults learning how to actually use privacy functions but also how to report how to block. Sadly, a lot of.
    about Digital literacy · at
  • And this is obviously up to you guys, but I think it's it would be best if one of you two was there to be a part of this confrontation.
    about Be Best · at
  • I think it's Well, let's decide right now. I think it's this is Andy from Totally Lame and Totally Married reaching out because we're working on a story that involves you that…
    about Totally Lame and Totally Married · at

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

  • Avita March — Person · 1 mention · first at
  • Carly Ryan — Person · 1 mention · first at
    There was a really famous case in Australia called Carly Ryan. She has a foundation now, and she was in the early 2000s. She was catfished by an older serial predator and pedophile online. He created a profile of his son. She.
  • Alicia Kay — Person · 1 mention · first at
    So that was a terrible in fact I mean I'm also going to just rattle off two more in America. Alicia Kay established a relationship with a girl online when she was 13 called Christine.
  • Casey Woody — Person · 1 mention · first at
    The last case, Casey Woody, she was in America 13 years old. She established a 17 like a relationship with a 17-year-old boy. Also turned out to be a 47year-old man who did abduct her and.
  • Alex Anderson — Person · 1 mention · first at
    But they've been located like they're real people. And well, the boy Anders, his last name is Anderson.

Books & papers

Companies & orgs

Concepts & topics

  • Machiavellianism — Concept · 6 mentions
  • Narcissism — Concept · 5 mentions · first at
  • Sadism — Concept · 4 mentions · first at
    The tendency to manipulate others for your own personal gain. And lastly, sadism. So enjoyment of harming people psychologically or physically. So you can see these traits coming out that Yeah.
  • Online dating — Concept · 3 mentions · first at
  • Parasocial Relationship — Concept · 2 mentions · first at
  • Digital literacy — Concept · 2 mentions · first at
  • Erotic photo gallery — Concept · 2 mentions
  • Cyber psychology — Concept · 1 mention · first at
    Professor of psychology at Federation University Australia. My research expertise is in cyber psychology. So the interaction of humans and technology in particular how humans…
  • Cyberstalking — Concept · 1 mention · first at
    Antisocial online behavior including trollings, cyber bullying, selfies and intimate partner cyberstalking, cyberstalking in general. This was a starting interest of…
  • Intimate partner cyberstalking — Concept · 1 mention · first at
    Antisocial online behavior including trollings, cyber bullying, selfies and intimate partner cyberstalking, cyberstalking in general. This was a starting interest of…
  • Online deception — Concept · 1 mention · first at
    Activity is to explore something we have to define it. So broadly catfishing fits into online deception and online deception has four categories. Firstly trolling so…
  • Category deception — Concept · 1 mention · first at
    Trolling so intentionally deceiving and upsetting people online. Then there's category deception. This is considered rather innocuous. Category deception could be like creating…
  • Impersonation — Concept · 1 mention · first at
    Few more pounds. So, in addition to category deception, there's also impersonation. This is pretending to be somebody else. It's assuming another identity. So, impersonation a bit more insidious. Lastly, identity concealment.
  • Identity concealment — Concept · 1 mention · first at
    Somebody else. It's assuming another identity. So, impersonation a bit more insidious. Lastly, identity concealment.
  • $3.5 million — Concept · 1 mention · first at
    There was one calculation that in Australia in 2020 it cost I think these scams from catfishes was about $37 million that people lost to these. Like it's it's massive, but it's…
  • Domestic Abuse — Concept · 1 mention · first at
    Yeah, it sounds I mean it's sort of akin to domestic abuse cases. It sounds like you get in this cycle of like bringing you in so close and needing somebody else to bring you out of it and this like hate you love you cycle. It's.
  • Love bombing — Concept · 1 mention · first at
    Abusive rel intimate relationships or even the catfisher is the commonality of love bombing whether it is lovebombing with like if online dating it may be showering you at the…
  • Privacy functions — Concept · 1 mention · first at
    Literacy in or education programs for younger adults learning how to actually use privacy functions but also how to report how to block. Sadly, a lot of younger people just…
  • Manifesto — Concept · 1 mention · first at
    Which is definitely interesting because last episode we were reading his email, what we are calling his manifesto, and we were saying that this part is probably true. It's really him.
  • Cult leader — Concept · 1 mention · first at
    And that I feel like it's similar to I don't know, let's think about like a cult leader or someone like that who there are steps that you take and you kind of learn how to get better at it and stuff like that. I almost feel like if he's.
  • $1,000 donation — Concept · 1 mention
  • Cyberbullying — Concept · 1 mention
  • Post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) — Concept · 1 mention

Full transcript with timestamps

Welcome to Beth's Dead episode 7. I'm Monica Padman and I'm here, per usual, with Elizabeth and Andy.

Hello. Hello. And last week we discussed maybe needing to make contact with this person, the professor.

But I will say before we do that, I wanted to kind of make sure we were doing all of our due diligence. So today's episode is going to be in two parts.

Okay. First, we're going to talk to a catfishing expert. Oh. which I think is important for us to do to answer some of the questions we have, especially like what type of person this man is, you know, if there's a I I don't know. She'll have all the answers for us, hopefully.

Creepy guy. Yeah, the type is creepy. And then the second half, I did reach out without your permission. Um, I did reach out to a private investigator.

Wow. Monica. Well, I just felt like we really need to check our boxes, cross our tees, dot our eyes, make sure we're really doing this appropriately if we're going to make contact.

Yeah. I love it. Did they start? Yes. So, the second part of this, we're going to discuss what she found.

Oh my god. Oh my god. And then we can sort of make an informed decision about our next steps, reaching out. Uh but first, Oh my god.

But first, let's talk to our catfishing expert. Uh she's an associate professor and her name is Avita March.

Let's do it. We are we are very very grateful to have you. Good morning by the way or good afternoon.

I wonder maybe should we start with maybe you just telling us a little bit of of like your background?

My name is Avita March. I'm an associate professor of psychology at Federation University Australia. My research expertise is in cyber psychology. So the interaction of humans and technology in particular how humans behave online. So I'm I've always been interested in both pro-social and antisocial behavior. But of course what is I guess more interesting is why people why people behave antisoccially online. And so I've explored a range of different antisocial online behavior um including trollings, cyber bullying, selfies and intimate partner cyberstalking, cyberstalking in general. This was um a starting interest of catfishing. Also, I'm interested in the individual or the psychology behind it. So the individual differences and personality traits that predict why people engage in this behavior. Oh my gosh, we could not have found a more perfect human being to speak to.

I don't know if you know the history of why we're reaching out, but Andy and I had an experience that we've been taking Monica on this journey of I guess the word is catfishing. You probably have a more nuanced take on it.

And we wanted to talk to you about the type of person who does this and what your experience is. And we just have so many questions. Yeah. Why don't you guys walk her through a little bit of like the background of what happened?

The quick Yeah. The quick down and dirty version. Okay. So, we had a podcast, this was back in 2015,

where people would write in with their questions and he and I would give our unqualified advice. And I maybe naively was responding to people off the podcast and in some cases developing relationships with especially young women who maybe seemed like they didn't have like a support system. Over time I developed pretty strong relationships with a couple of these women like I'm the big sister and then

that had written in. Yes, they had written in and then also just via email we were communicating and on our comments section

and then I I got a message one day that one of them had died by suicide and I was devastated and then it started to the brother started to message me as though I maybe had some part in kind of misleading her like asking if I was a therapist of some sort. And during this, a friend of mine realized this was really weird that this brother was reaching out to me.

Long story short, we realized that one person was posing as eight of these characters who had been taking up a ton of my time and energy. They all had very rich lives. Like one was a Norwegian couple, you know, it was kind of pretty wild. And

Wow. Yeah. So then we kind of pinpointed who we think it is and um so at this stage in the process we're like going to be reaching out to this person and wanted to talk to you about what we're potentially getting into. M

you know I have a lot of safety questions and also just curiosity about because the person that we've you know researched is a professional in academia uh has a family extraordinary I mean it is I don't know whether it is reassuring to hear like it's not that sounds like a rather actual typical experience but I'm at the same I'm I'm really personally sorry to hear that you had to go through that particularly then the insinuations that you perhaps had some responsibility that must have been incredibly challenging and difficult to hear. So I'm I'm sorry for your experience.

Thank you. Yeah, I appreciate that. Is this typically in a romantic relationship?

I think the difficulty we've really come to see catfishing as synonymous with like a financial scam. The typical idea of seeing they build this relationship and then they start asking for money and so they're relying on having built that relationship. So the trust is there. So when they ask for the money like it's validating and then over time like there are reports of people who have given hundreds of thousands of dollars to people who have catfished them. But what I find more and more curious is that money is not always the goal. There are quite a few instances where like you're where the goal is far more tricky to pinpoint exactly why they are doing this and why they're engaging in this. Now I feel I probably need to take a step back and even start with like the meta definition of how do we explore like how do we define catfishing and where we go from there. So this was important to us

as researchers who were exploring this activity is to explore something we have to define it. So broadly catfishing fits into online deception and online deception has four categories. Firstly trolling so intentionally deceiving and upsetting people online. Then there's category deception. This is considered rather innocuous. Category deception could be like creating an online dating profile and clicking that you're average weight rather than, you know, I have a few more pounds. So, in addition to category deception, there's also impersonation. This is pretending to be somebody else. It's assuming another identity. So, impersonation a bit more insidious. Lastly, identity concealment.

So, concealing a part of your identity, saying perhaps that you're not a smoker. Catfishing fit the definition of impersonation pretending to be somebody else online for the goal of either their own amusement or find or fraud. Now, in saying that, more and more cases are coming out of romance catfishing. In general, catfishing really is dependent on creating that relationship with a target or um victim survivor with the intent of deceiving them to exploit them in some way. Also, just as a complete side note, it might be of interest where the term catfishing comes from.

Yeah. Right. So, so years ago, cod was shipped from Alaska to China, but when it arrived at China, it was quite lifeless and mushy in the barrels. And so, they put catfish in the barrels with cod. So, the catfish would chase the cod the entire time. So, the sentiment is like the same. The catfisher is constantly keeping you alert and on the go and almost like just active and trying to figure things out like the whole time.

Wow. And I guess to normalize this as well, how many people experience this, they fall victim to catfishes. In fact, there was one calculation that in Australia in 2020 it cost I think these scams from catfishes was about $37 million that people lost to these. Like it's it's massive,

but it's more than that. It's also just the psychological outcomes when you realize or people who then find out that they have experienced or been a victim survivor of catfishing. I mean, unsurprisingly, we see a range of psychological outcomes like depression, anxiety, symptoms consistent with PT or post-traumatic stress disorder all the way to then increase of suicidal ideiation, the feeling of shame. And that is really interesting to me because it's shame that they experienced this. They should have known better,

but it's the intent of the catfisher that you don't know better. One of my questions for you is who are the idiots who fall for this sort of thing. I'm just so I don't know if there's an element of shame for me. No, there

this whole experience recording this podcast, I'm going, how did I not see it? How did I not know? You know, it's really wild looking back on it and thinking this sort of thing couldn't happen to me, but it sure did.

So, when there's not a financial cuz in in in our case, in Elizabeth and Andy's case,

it was not for financial gain. In in fact, the only amount of money exchanged was actually the other way. this person sent some money over also obviously as like some bait I I assume to like keep them as you say like on the hook but like

I just can't for the life of me other than financial gain understand what they're getting. So let's consider I guess three different scenarios of catfishing. The first financial gain in that their gain is that I am going to exploit this person financially. They still have to establish that relationship. They still may build that fake identity or impersonate another person, steal an identity, but they still catfish them, but the end goal is money. The second, and this is I guess the really bleak cases as well, is there are a number of cases of catfishing in early 2000s, the wild west of the internet, where young girls were catfished by predators, older male predators, and they were then essentially groomed by the catfisher.

There was a really famous case in Australia called Carly Ryan. She has a foundation now, and she was in the early 2000s. She was catfished by an older serial predator and pedophile online. He created a profile of his son. She established a relationship with her as a 17-year-old son. He then came to her house to a party, met the pet like posing as that son's father. He was his behavior was really erratic. Maybe she was 14. It must have been her 15th birthday. The party he came to 3 weeks later he abducted her and murdered her.

So that was that was a terrible in fact I mean I'm also going to just rattle off two more in America. Alicia Kay established a relationship with a girl online when she was 13 called Christine. She discovered that Christine was an older man but then that catfisher introduced her to another man who actually did abduct her live broadcasted her rape and torture in his basement. The FBI traced the live broadcast. Um she is alive now. She does motivational speaking around online safety.

The last case, Casey Woody, she was in America 13 years old. She established a 17 like a relationship with a 17-year-old boy. Also turned out to be a 47year-old man um who did abduct her and murder her. So these are the really horrific cases where it was actually a pedophile who catfish younger girls and to groom them, but they had horrible ends. But then we also have this third area and this is the area that we're really talking about here is what is the end goal. These cases are actually far less common. So um in our study we were interested in exploring the dark tetrid of personality. These are four socially noxious personality traits. these um I've had a lot of research on these traits over the years exploring different antisocial behaviors whether online or offline and there seems some value here given how these traits are characterized that they would predict catfishing.

So we were interested in assessing narcissism. So egoism, a sense of superiority, psychopathy, so being impulsive, a lack of guilt, personal responsibility for your actions, a lack of empathy as well or I should say empathy deficits. Mavelianism, which is the tendency to manipulate others for your own personal gain. And lastly, sadism. So enjoyment of harming people psychologically or physically. So you can see these traits coming out that Yeah. these traits coming up.

It's making like sense that okay, well, there's probably value in exploring these. I should also note we explore these traits as nonclinical or subclinical. We're not diagnosing people with a narcissistic personality disorder. Everybody has some level of narcissism. Everybody has some level of sadism. Like if you've seen a friend fall over and laugh like it's a little, you know, we all have a level of these traits. We're interested in people who have higher levels of these traits subcl clinically, might not meet that personality disorder, but they are more narcissistic and higher levels of those other traits.

How we assess catfishing was tricky. There's no um psychometrically validated measure of catfishing out there. So, what we did was we generated some items that seem to capture catfishing behaviors. And some of these items included things like, I tell lies about myself when I talk to someone online, or I make up stories or excuses to avoid meeting people online in real life. I fabricated online profiles to escape my real life. M

so we found that people who engaged in those higher levels of catfishing had higher narcissism, higher psychopathy and particularly blowing off the charts was sadism. Like sadism was an incredibly strong predictor. So their enjoyment of hurting other people was very strong. Another interesting little finding, we um

we also looked at men and women if one engaged in more of this because the research around that is a bit hazy like who does this more. We did find before we in we um explored the personality traits. We popped gender in the model first to see well is gender doing anything. We did find that men were engaging in these in this behavior more but once we included personality traits that was that was gone. It became non-significant. So

at the end that means it doesn't matter if you're a man or a woman. If you are narcissistic higher, if you're higher in psychopathy, but particularly especially if you are like nonclinical sadistic, then you're going to engage in this behavior more.

Yes. I have a question because of the internet and not just the internet though you know just even the amount of podcasts that have come up in the last 10 years there's like also these parasocial relationships that start happening and to me the two are so closely linked when you're in these parasocial relationships you can feel entitled to those people even though you don't know them but you're like but I consume your content all day long and I know you and I think it can easily get thwarted into we're in a relationship when we're not.

I haven't explored parasocial relationships, but I guess the concept there is similar of this form of attachment.

I guess what I would say though is that that's it's a little bit different to me. Like I I think they're in the same ballpark, but the catfisher is intentionally manipulating you into that relationship. like my parasocial relationship. I It could be just following somebody or an influencer. I see that their life is so similar to mine. I feel really close to them. I feel a sense of connection, which we all do. We may have people we follow we feel really connected to that they may never have spoken or acknowledged us, but we have that sense of connection. The catfisher is creating that sense of connection in you. They are exploiting you in some way. They exploited your empathy that you had for these younger women to create that relationship. They find how they can exploit you and they do so. Now that's why online dating is a really thriving fertile environment for this because they are exploiting people's want for a

relationship. I mean, you could not find a more fertile environment to try and catfish people who by are likely lonely because and I don't say everybody who's single is lonely. That's a cop out that [ __ ] But I can say that people who are creating a date or looking to online date are probably looking for a relationship and that is exploited. That is why they they are quite good at what they do and why the shame that people experience as a result of this is so misplaced especially from what we found in our research. I just want to talk a little bit about the Mavelianism finding because we didn't actually find it as a significant predictor which at first glance confused us a little because we thought that's the manipulative trait like that's the exploitive one like what happened there why didn't that come to the party? What we actually can what we theorized from that was Mcavelianism is really dependent on what they get out of

it as in their manipulation of others is for their own gain. Narcissism could go either way. We did think one narcissistic could just be that sense of entitlement. I'm I can do this like I'm entitled to do this and treat people this way. The other thing we also thought with narcissists though is that they actually could take some enjoyment and being able to manipulate people of profile which may be like your exact case that you described as well in that being able to manipulate you gave them a sense of superiority. They had control over you.

Mhm. This all brings me a huge question for you is are these people dangerous? You know, I've had like fear for the last eight years and

really once we realized what was going on kind of shut everything down. We shut our podcast down. I

scrubbed my Instagram of my children, you know, things like that. Y clearly the ones who are predators like sexual predators are extremely dangerous. But

for these the ones who it's not quite so clearcut what they're after, do you think that they are dangerous? Uh I mean it's it is a huge question because I guess it dep depends on the motivation like a lot of things. So there were some researchers that did explore that and they were people who had catfished. They didn't get to interview many because as unsurprisingly not a few not a lot came forward but a lot of the they cited motivations of loneliness and also escapism. M

now that I think likely might render them a bit more innocuous. It's a really hard thing to tease apart though because I think that the very act of what they're doing is dangerous because of the psychological impact that they can have. The behavior is abusive because it leaves you feeling like fearing for your safety. Look at how much you changed your life because of this. But whether they are actually going to let's say I guess the word we'd be looking for is violent. Are they going to be violent at the end of this?

What might be reassuring is in these cases where it was more like the motivation was unknown why they did this. Was it just to mon you [ __ ] with people? There haven't been a lot of outcomes of violence. Typically when the catfishing is discovered, it falls apart. like it's just it is and the the person the victim survivor is there putting back the pieces together of their life.

That's such a relief. Yeah, there hasn't been a lot. But I mean in saying that there there are cases of violence. So I certainly wouldn't want to I guess reassure and say no no no don't worry like but I guess I'm also emphasizing I'm like I really don't want the takeaway to ever be like cool like you know it's not so bad as long as it doesn't get violent.

Yeah. Right. I wonder sometimes if and I really don't want because this is not based on research. This is just my speculation. So I really can't confirm but I wonder sometimes if also the cat in these circumstances when they have created 60 identities they're doing this for over nearly a decade. Imagine how much work that is. Like

I wonder if there's a point that they are like release me from this. Somebody has to stop me because I cannot stop myself.

Oh, interesting. I could see that. One of the things that when I stopped responding to this these characters,

you could feel the panic of the person behind the screen. And we also made it so that the comments on our website we were getting, but they weren't being published. And it was almost like this person was more panicked about not having their life's work. So panicked that that was gone. Like there's such a pride to

this kind of massive I don't know compilation of work really. And it was it truly was impressive like how

detailed all these characters are prolific. And I also in doing this podcast I've been reflecting a lot and um I also feel like when you're saying narcissism, not so much the sadism, but if there's a version of like them thinking that they actually were helping me

because I took the bait. I wanted to be the hero to this young woman who was struggling and this other woman who is such a huge fan and like I was feeding into this and I I don't know if there's a story that maybe these people are telling themselves about like I'm actually helping or I'm being a positive force in this person's life even though it's all fake.

Okay. like they have to justify it to themselves and that's a plausible way to do it at least sort of maybe

that's yeah a really important point because along the way I mean unless they are a complete psychopath they would have to rationalize their behavior and rationalize this and that is I think a really excellent way that they could do that.

How typical is it that there are these multiple characters in these situations? Is that pretty common?

In a lot of cases, it does seem to be that the catfisher tends to create like at least one alternate that can confirm what the catfisher is saying. Um, again, I can't speak to every case because I don't know, but I do know of like some popularized ones, there's at least some alternate that's able to reassure the victim survivor that this is f like this person is genuine. This person is real. In some cases, it was just the catfisher and one person. So, um, actually there was something interesting you did say earlier and that was and I thought what a nice way might be to also round up this conversation was to talk a bit about like warning signs. What can people do? Like what's a bit of a call to action with catfishing? So, how what do we do?

Oh, was it when I asked what kind of idiots fall for that? So, firstly, I'm going to reiterate with that it's actually not about who can fall for it. I think though it is people that may be vulnerable in some way for them to exploit and take advantage of. He also noted earlier that it took somebody else from outside and I think that is the biggest thing I do say to people as like a guy with this is that when you are in it, it is actually you're lost and this is what they have created. They have created a world of control for you and you're in that world. You cannot see the forest through the trees from this. And if you try, they will create a whole new thing to bring you back in. So you are almost helpless in this. If anything feels ever off or it might not feel right, talk to somebody who is not in it or talk to somebody who's outside because honestly they could even like just as an assessment say that does not seem right.

And you need somebody who has not been trapped, controlled, exploited to give you that and say that. So that's my big encouragement to people. If it seems something seems a bit off, talk to somebody else about it. Get that objective view.

That's such good advice cuz my friend was the one who said that's weird. And then

I think it took Andy going that is weird. You know, it took kind of two outside people because I w I was just during this conversation thinking

if Beth had at some point said, "Hey, can I talk to you?" I mean, I was in so deep with her, I would have called her like,

and I now I have such stronger boundaries obviously um thanks to this experience, but it's pretty wild to think back on that. I had two tiny children, you know, so busy that I would have dropped everything to talk to this person because I felt that kind of invested. It's almost as if they put these this pair of sunglasses on you and you are now lost in this world and you're lost like I mean even your behavior can be extreme like you would not even expect yourself in other circumstances to behave like this but that that's that is all the manipulation and control that is what they do and I mean when they anticipate any extent of you pulling away any chance that you may actually or somebody else could take those sunglasses off, they will up the ante to continue that control. Which is why it's really extraordinary that I do think that there are a few like even doing this and that they do up the ante, but then when they

eventually do get caught, they're like, "Oh, thank God cuz I never would have stopped." I genuinely don't think that that some know how to stop.

Yeah, it sounds I mean it's sort of akin to domestic abuse cases. It sounds like you you get in this cycle of like

bringing you in so close and needing somebody else to bring you out of it and this like hate you love you cycle. It's like it sounds very similar weirdly. Yeah, I would say that they're almost two like it's just a different for I mean it is abuse and yeah it is a it is absolutely a different form um because another characteristic of both either in abusive rel intimate relationships or even the catfisher is um the commonality of love bombing whether it is lovebombing um with like if online dating it may be showering you at the beginning with compliments but even if it's not online dating it's lovebombing in the sense of perhaps you heard like you're such a great listener, you're so good at this, you're so like they make you feel special for the very thing that they're trying to exploit you for.

Yeah. The one thing that we've like theorized or getting back to like who this can happen to, we were a great target, especially Elizabeth, we had this podcast that was kind of a playbook of our personalities. And so once this person started doing this to Elizabeth, they had this playbook sort of of like

she'll probably relate to this, she'll probably like this. And they but they did it from all these different angles which was so wild.

Yeah. I'm I hate to say that you almost like they had a doulia that referred to.

Look, an online environment offers so many social benefits. Um it does like particularly for identity exploration, giving safe environments for people. by me and like also supporting mental health. There's so many benefits of being online, but there's also quite a bit of danger and the potential for experiencing abuse and exploitation.

I'm glad we got to talk to you cuz I think it's just such a good reminder to everyone that what you put on the internet can be can be used.

Yeah. Yes. I I am a very strong advocate as well for embedding more digital literacy in um or education programs for younger adults learning how to actually use privacy functions um but also how to report how to block. Sadly, a lot of younger people just seem to think that they they just have to deal with it alone or they have to manage it. So, I think I'm just an advocate in general for increasing our digital literacy, keeping us safe online. That's excellent. Thank you so much. Yeah. Thanks for the chat and all the best with the podcast.

I am so so glad we did that. Yeah, me too. She was amazing. But I cannot say it put me more at ease. You don't feel safer after that. just, you know, I do feel like the more we talk about this and I feel like it is the right thing to do to give him the opportunity to weigh in.

But yesesh. Well, okay. Well, before we make any like major decisions, let me share with you some of the information we got from the private investigator I hired. Uh, we'll call her Amanda. How's everyone feeling?

Nervous. Um, how are you feeling, Andrew? Yeah, a little nervous. Like, what are we nervous about?

Yeah, that's a great question. Just how potentially I don't know. I am I don't even if I'm comfortable like saying this, but like how potentially like bad this guy is or like, you know, he's already made us so

at unease in general. Revisiting this has made me uneasy and then I'm like, if I'm going to find out a bunch of bad [ __ ] is it going to make me feel more uneasey?

Yeah. You know? Well, okay. So, let's let's dive in, shall we? I found out that based on what our guy has out on the internet already, like what what he has put out there,

there's a through line of victimhood in his story. He is the victim. Okay. Which makes it interesting for us a little bit

because I wonder the He's going to love this. I mean, I wonder how he's framed this in his head so that he's a victim cuz he will, right? Like,

right. I think we I mean, I think we all do this. We justify our actions, especially when we know that they're not great or our, you know, our subconscious knows they're not great. We find a way to justify it. So I do find that through line relevant because I I feel that it might come up if and when we make contact. It's so interesting to me because yes, I think on some level all of us do this. But he like made the choice to do this and spent so much time. I truly can't fathom

Yeah. how he would spin the story that he was the victim. Although he kind of remember he was harping on Beth had donated $1,000 and like she my sister donated $1,000 and you won't even call me back. I mean, even his characters played the roles of victim time and time again.

In his mind, he's already paid the [ __ ] with you tax. Exactly. Right. I believe he has justified this in some way and I am really curious to know what it is and I have a feeling maybe this victim um persona might come up but I don't know. Mhm. Might come out to play. That's right.

Yeah. Okay. He he has had some a hard life. He's had a lot of interpersonal loss, which is definitely interesting because last episode we were reading his email, what we are calling his manifesto, and we were saying that this part is probably true. It's really him.

Yes. And turns out it is. Exactly. That's also interesting [clears throat] as far as maybe his need for like connection. I also wonder how much of what his characters were offering was potentially like a catharsis for him. Maybe

also hearing that, you know, the parents dying and whatnot. You know, that's something that you're very vocal about, especially back then. I would say to a problematic degree,

but that he might have, you know, he's seemingly very drawn to you and maybe you guys in his head were sympatico sort of, you know, and he was hoping to develop this relationship because you would understand him maybe.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Interesting. Yeah. One very interesting thing is he has been vocal that he's had stalkers. That is fascinating.

Someone that does that, that's saying they've had all these stalkers and all this stuff. I'm the victim over and over and yet they're doing this to Elizabeth.

Yeah. Is all of that [ __ ] Like, do they never have stalkers? And then this is just this weird way to get in front of this stuff. Almost your

It seems like a weird mental games that you're doing sort of. I don't know. We've seen some notable politicians in recent years who constantly are pointing the finger at their opposition saying I'm just hypothetically saying like you rigged the election or you unfairly blah blah blah. Well, it's almost like to create a distraction over there while I do the exact thing that I'm

claiming this other person has done to me. Yeah, I would bet a million dollars that I don't have that he has not been stalked. And that I feel like it's similar to I don't know, let's think about like a cult leader or someone like that who there are steps that you take and you kind of learn how to get better at it and stuff like that. I almost feel like if he's writing about someone doing this thing to him, it's almost like a

admission of guilt or a purging. It's a purging. And it's also to me kind of selfmasturbatory like

where he's like waving this out there and this is what they did and these are the steps they took and

kind of showing his cards in a way and getting away with it. Also, I just want to say if if you were so upset about being put through this that you're online talking about it, you don't go and then put someone else through it.

But that's what I don't know because you know, you hear so many stories abused people abused people.

You know, that is true. I don't know. That's that's where my question is in all of this.

Well, cuz also Okay, the picture of Natasha and Anders, I have I know who they are. I mean, I don't know if I should say it. I mean, I don't think it would make a difference, but they've been located like they're real people. And well, the boy Anders, his last name is Anderson.

Wow. Wow. And then she put two and two together, which I cannot believe we did not do that none of us did. That Anders sounds like Andy

and obviously Beth is short for Elizabeth. And so there is like a weird name. There is a weird name.

There's something with the names for sure. Yeah. Well, I also want to say interestingly, we discovered Monica, I'm so sorry that I sent you a erotic photo.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Um, gallery. But I had forgotten that I had the link to the gallery that he had sent me as Beth to basically say, "These aren't so bad, are they?" And long story short, the adult model that was playing the role of Beth in his narration her name or part of her name is Natasha.

Wow. So, he kind of cycles through. He's doing a weird thing with names. I mean, I will say as as a writer, not as prolific as this man, but I often just pull names out of, you know, I will be like, "This character's named Monica because I saw you this week." And

God willing, you write me into one of your scripts, of course. Um, but do they know I'm so curious if they know that they've been

I if that they've been used in this way. My guess is no. Right. So, there's no connection to him. These people

didn't seem like it. Okay. My most important question for her was, do you think this person is a threat? And she said no. She doesn't think so. after like doing her whole deep dive, she said he does not have a criminal record and she doesn't think there's reason to believe that he's like a threat.

A scary I mean he's scary mentally obviously, but that he would hurt us. Yeah. Right. Does she think we got the right guy?

Yeah, she does think so. Yeah. So, you know, we got some information. We didn't get it all. I don't think we'll ever get it all. I I can't really get it out of my head.

That I think we need to attempt to make contact with him. Mhm. And this is obviously up to you guys, but I think it's it would be best if one of you two was there to to be a part of this confrontation. I think it's the only way for you two

to have any sort of closure around this. And we can talk about what that means. And I want to know how you guys feel about it. So nervous

and it's a lot. I know. I feel protective of you not to talk to him. I don't necessarily think there would be any repercussions from it. I'm not that worried. But on the small chance that like it does rattle you more than less,

I hate I hate that that it could like trigger I don't know, bring you back to that

time more so where I'm like than just revisiting it now cuz I feel like revisiting it now is almost closure in this weird way that I just would hate for him to spark

the uneasiness again. Well, what would it look like, Monica? I mean, I think I don't know. You know, I'm not a unfortunately I'm not a detective or

That is unfortunate or a journalist or anything. So, I I I think I'm going to either call that number.

Yeah. Oh, that sounds so scary. But I think I'll either call that number or email him.

Okay. And say, "Hey, hello. Hi. I'm not sure how Hi in Norwegian English. Oh my gosh.

Oh my god. Yeah, I think I'll have to say something like, "Hi, I'm Monica Padman. I um produced the Armchair Expert podcast. We're doing a podcast about some events that involve you. We would really love it if you would participate." Um,

yeah. Like we would love to hear your side of the story. Can we set up a time to chat?

Yeah. Is it that I think we do need to say this is coming out whether you're participating in it or not,

which I cuz I think that will make him want to share his side of the story. And it's not for me. It's not a trap. I want to hear his side of the story. We have so many [ __ ] questions that we've laid out throughout this whole

show, and I want to know what the answers are. And I also want to know what his mindset is and

was. And it I'm so curious if I mean, wouldn't it just bull all of us over if he were like, "Yeah, I really regret doing that. It got out of control."

Yeah. Or something like that. I would be like, "Whoa." You know, I don't think that's what's going to happen. But I do I like the idea of the two of you. I don't want to like send Monica out like a lone sheep.

We still have the totally lame email, right? Yeah. Which he's emailed a gazillion times

and he would be intrigued. Why don't we like that? We know he already has that email. So, I don't know why we're so afraid of giving our email addresses to this guy, but we are.

Yeah. Imagine being him getting an email from that email address. I kind of love that.

And what are you going to say? I think it's Well, let's decide right now. I think it's this is Andy from Totally Lame and Totally Married um reaching out because we're working on a story that involves you that we're doing if with your blessing Monica that we're doing with armchair. Yes. Um, and we would really like to

talk to you talk to you before we publish it. Yeah, I think period. Can we set up a time to chat?

Let's do it right now. Yeah. Okay. Let me get my laptop. Great. What's everyone's anxiety level right now?

Through the roof. Just real quick though, is this is this the way? This is the way.

I think it is the way. And I feel like we have a backup plan whereas I feel like if we had called like calling him and not getting a response or answer or whatever feels tricky. I think this way we can without a doubt know that he's opening that email and looking at it right because it's from Totally Lame.

Yeah. Versus any other email I would go like did he even get it? I don't know. Then I actually think a follow-up email from the armchair world, yes, is like completely appropriate and raises the stakes a little bit more. Yeah.

Of like, oh [ __ ] they're serious, right? And then if there's no response there, then the call. I kind of like that plan of attack.

Okay, great. Me, too. Okay. Okay, let's send it. Great. I don't know why we're high-fiving.

I'm scared. This is big. I'm getting in his head right now and imagining seeing that email pop up.

Oh, it's so good. Like an old ghost. Yeah. [sighs] But it's like he might be excit he might be thrilled.

Yeah. And that's sad to me in some ways, too. Like, okay, what's the subject? Um, [snorts]

your side of the story. How about How about podcast request? He wants to be heard.

Um, this is Andy. This is Andy from Totally Lame and Totally Married Podcast. Yeah,

podcasts. We are doing a I think story is good like on a story that involves you. Um, I would love to give you the chance to tell your side of the story. Can we set up a time to chat?

Give I think that might automatically put him on the defensive. I think it should be like I would love to chat with you

and ask some questions maybe. Or I think even just chat with you when you leave it vague.

Yeah. when you have the time or like I'd love to chat with you when you have a few minutes.

I'd love to set up a time to chat with you. Yes. Can you let me know your availability?

To set up a time to chat with you. Can you let me your avail This is so weird because it just feels like a like,

hey Susan from HR now, right? But we do have to this is very critical the way we word this because we want him to feel we want him to feel like he wants to participate.

Okay. So what is it? Okay. Podcast request subject line. This is Andy from Totally Lame and Totally Married podcasts. We are working in collaboration with the Armchair Expert podcast on a story that involves you. I would love to set up a time to chat with you. Can you let me know your availability?

Thanks, Andy. Andy, I think it's great. I think it's great. Okay. [clears throat] I want to barf. Um, what's our game plan for when it pops in our email? I feel like we shouldn't read it until

we have to We can I think what we should do is Andy and I will be recording and we'll call you or Zoom.

Okay. Right. Sure. Yeah. Okay. Okay. I'm so nervous, but I'm pressing send. Okay.

Hell yeah. Done. Great. Okay. [sighs] And we wait. If you don't want to wait for more Be Best, you can binge the entire series today at patreon.com/bestdeed, where all 10 episodes are available adfree right now. Best is presented by armchair experts Monica Padman and nobody's listening, right? It is produced and edited by Andy Rosen, Elizabeth Lame, and Monica Padman. Additional engineering by Rob Hollis. Music and sound by Andy Rosen. Special thanks to Avita March.

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "EP7 - We Need To Bring In An Expert"?

Monica Padman (Host), Elizabeth Lame (Host), Andy Rosen (Host), Avita March (Guest), Amanda (Guest), Rob Hollis (Guest).

What is "EP7 - We Need To Bring In An Expert" about?

In this episode, the hosts explore the complexities of catfishing by consulting a catfishing expert and a private investigator to better understand the psychology behind such deceitful behavior. They aim to gather crucial insights and data to inform their next steps in a case involving potential contact with an individual of interest.

What is mentioned in this BETH'S DEAD episode?

35 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Machiavellianism, Narcissism, Sadism, Online dating, Totally Lame and Totally Married, Parasocial Relationship. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "EP7 - We Need To Bring In An Expert"?

The episode runs 50 min; the transcript is about 8,044 words in 160 timestamped sections.

More from BETH'S DEAD

About this transcript: the episode's spoken words as captioned on YouTube, split into timestamped sections. Reclip.Me locates every person, work and idea in the text, keeps the time it is first named, and quotes the words around it verbatim. Last updated December 16, 2025.