Transcript

How this Couple Achieved FIRE in Their 30s!

From BiggerPockets Money · Episode page · Watch on YouTube

· 1 h 6 min · 13,717 words · 175 timestamped sections

This is the full, timestamped transcript of "How this Couple Achieved FIRE in Their 30s!", an episode of BiggerPockets Money published December 16, 2025 (1 h 6 min, about 13,717 words). It mentions 12 people, works and ideas, including Ardriano Carolyn, Secret Service Sam, Mr. Money Mustache, Money Under 30, Scott Trench.

What is discussed, and when

  1. – 10:00: Money Under 30, Ardriano Carolyn, Mindy Jensen, Mr. Money Mustache
  2. – 20:00: Mr. Money Mustache, Set for Life, The Simple Path to Wealth, Your Money or Your Life
  3. – 30:00: Ardriano Carolyn
  4. – 40:00: Express Entry Federal Skilled Worker Program, McGill, Mr. Money Mustache
  5. – 50:00: Mr. Money Mustache, Prince Edward Island
  6. – 1:00:00: Ardriano Carolyn
  7. – 1:05:35: Ardriano Carolyn, Scott Trench

Notable quotes from "How this Couple Achieved FIRE in Their 30s!"

  • Sam and Carolyn quit their jobs 5 years ago and haven't looked back since. How?
    about Ardriano Carolyn · at
  • I, think, yeah, first, from, probably, Mr.
    about Mr. Money Mustache · at
  • Yeah., Your, money, or, your, life., The Simple Path to Wealth, like all the podcasts, all the books, like we just were like fanatical and it gave us like something to talk about other than like.
    about The Simple Path to Wealth · at
  • Theology. I love reading and writing about theology. I'm gonna go back and get a master's at McGill which is like one of the best schools in Canada.
    about McGill · at
  • Which I think is like uniquely of interest to FIRE people is called the Express Entry Federal Skilled Worker Program. The reason it's like particularly good for FIRE is you can…
    about Express Entry Federal Skilled Worker Program · at
  • This summer. And yeah,, we're, spending, the, whole, summer, in like Prince Edward Island area to top off that,095 days and then that's when we qualify for citizenship and then we don't like have to keep coming back and forth.
    about Prince Edward Island · at

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

  • Ardriano Carolyn — Person · 7 mentions · first at
  • Secret Service Sam — Person · 5 mentions
  • Mr. Money Mustache — Person · 4 mentions · first at
  • Scott Trench — Person · 2 mentions · first at
    Bigger Pockets Money podcast. My name is Mindy Jensen and with me as always is my stateside co-host Scott Trench.
  • Mindy Jensen — Person · 1 mention · first at
    Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to the Bigger Pockets Money podcast. My name is Mindy Jensen and with me as always is my stateside co-host Scott Trench.

Books & papers

  • Money Under 30 — Book · 3 mentions · first at
    Yeah., So, starting, our, my, first, job got really into a blog called money under 30 which I think is still around.
  • Set for Life — Book · 2 mentions · first at
    We can do this. We can just like do these this like the things in the book set for life, like and then be there. Like from the time that we decided to like actually pursue fire…
  • The Simple Path to Wealth — Book · 1 mention · first at
  • Your Money or Your Life — Book · 1 mention · first at
    Yeah., Your, money, or, your, life., The Simple Path to Wealth, like all the podcasts, all the books, like we just were like fanatical and it gave us like something to talk about other than like.

Companies & orgs

Concepts & topics

Places & events

Full transcript with timestamps

Sam and Carolyn quit their jobs 5 years ago and haven't looked back since. How? They house hacked their way to financial independence, graduated debtree, reached FIRE in their 30s, and built a life with so much flexibility that they were able to pursue Canadian citizenship and live life on their terms. Let's find out how they did it. Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to the Bigger Pockets Money podcast. My name is Mindy Jensen and with me as always is my stateside co-host Scott Trench.

Hey, Mindy,, great, to, be, here., We're, so excited to be joined by Carolyn and Sam today. They've got an amazing FI story and we're going to be talking about uh their journey and the hockey stick trajectory of their net worth today. Sorry, I couldn't I couldn't resist. Without further ado, let's welcome Sam and Carolyn.

We're, so, excited, to, be, here. Yes., Yes,, indeed., Thank, you. Let's, start, from, the, beginning., Can, you give us a little bit of a description about what led up to your discovery of fire? What was your situation leading up to when you decided to pursue financial independence?

So,, we, got, married, in, 2011, and, even before that, we had bought a condo together. We'd been living together with his roommate as a brother and we were pretty frugal. We didn't even realize that was like house hacking. We just thought like why would we have an empty bedroom in a house? So, we like got off on the right foot with just not having debt, not having a lot of bad spending habits, not having credit cards. I was really afraid of credit cards just from like vaguely hearing like Dave Ramsey in the car on the radio as a kid and like there just being scenes in movies where credit cards ruin people's lives.

And, we, enjoyed, ramen, noodles., They, they were delicious and we had no problem there.

Like, we're, having, a, blast, like, going, to dollar beer night at like our favorite Mexican restaurant with our friends. Like we like felt well off. So fast forward, we got married. We had this condo that we already owned. Um, his brother moved into the condo, too. That all started cuz we saw like a billboard that said, "Your mortgage could be less than your rent if you buy this condo." It was like a really cheap condo, and that like blew our minds.

That, did, blow, our, mind., That, was interesting to hear. So,, we, bought, that, before, we, even, got married.

Did, you, talk, about, money, before, you, got married or did you just kind of get some context clues and not really have any big discussion? The first conversation was as soon as we got married, the tiny bit of debt that you had from your master's degree immediately uh was was paid for thanks to my savings. So, there was a a little conversation, but you know, it was immediately like, okay we're going to get rid of this debt. We're, going to, be, on, the, same, footing here.

So,, honestly,, a, lot, of, our, frugality, and our really high savings rate early on was because of getting married and taking that premarital counseling really seriously. And a lot of the premarital counseling advice is around money and like get on the same page with finances and what do you value like what is it important to you to spend on and not spend on. So the main reason that we were like being so frugal and saving so much money and being so responsible with not getting into debt was just more out of like cuz this is what you do when you're responsible and you get married because money problems tank marriages.

And that was the phase of our life was like we're going to set up like an amazing marriage.

I, think, that's, really, interesting, right? I mean, you're just say basically saying, hey, we didn't have bad habits. I imagine that flowed through other parts of your life as well. And you generally responsible in many areas of life at at this point in time. And I think that's it's like that's so fundamental to being able to accumulate wealth is spending less than you earn with basic common sense approach to finance. And I think what's unfair, what begins to create this massive inequality in our system is the fact that well, if you optimize in the context of that and actually play the tax advantage to games and actually intentionally follow a playbook to build wealth, that just explodes. That takes that good habit and and takes it from, yeah, you're going to build wealth for certain over time to you're going to get really wealthy at some point or have the option to retire decades early. Is that kind of how

things transpired for you? I I don't want to get ahead of myself, but is there a point where you decide, oh let's actually figure out the playbook now to turbocharge our wealth?

Yeah,, exactly., Basically,, and, I, think that's, you know, can be a common theme on this show, too, where people were just kind of doing the right thing and living life and just generally being responsible. And we hadn't even heard of fire, but by the time we needed fire which we'll talk about like why that happened, we already had like paved the way where it wasn't like a massive um odyssey. It was like something like, oh we can do this. We can just like do these this like the things in the book set for life, you know, like and then be there. Like from the time that we decided to like actually pursue fire was to the time he quit his job was less than 3 years because we were already set up really well.

Did, you, discover, fire, from, Scott's, set for life book or did you had you heard about it someplace else?

I, think, yeah, first, from, probably, Mr. Money Mustache. So kind of the way it worked was we were really into understanding finances just from like having a good marriage being responsible in our careers. I got a masters in public health for like practically free like moved in with my parents. We got married.

Contributions, also, were, a, big, question in our jobs and how that worked and that that really took us down a rabbit hole.

Yeah., So, starting, our, like, my, first, job got really into a blog called money under 30 which I think is still around. I don't read it anymore but that was a huge inspiration for me. And then similar things to that just like when you have a job how do you responsibly start investing in your 401k? So my first job out of graduate school was at a health department and I was making about 42,000 which to me felt like riches upon riches. So when the HR person like called me in to set up the investments for the retirement account, I was like "Yeah, what's the maximum?" Like cuz like, I, think, one, of the, things, they, say in money under 30 was like you should always feel a little bit broke. Like you should always be saving so much upfront.

So like just started out with the max and the HR person was like okay if you say so I guess you can always pull it back later. They also had like they had a match they had a pension um they had some pretty good benefits at that job. So started off with just like huge savings rate and it wasn't until like we had a few promotions started like every new promotion and raise just went more and more into savings. We bought a house and just intuitively like rented out the basement to a friend of ours like kept house hacking. What did you invest in um in your 401k at first and and did that evolve over time?

Yeah,, so, at, the, time, my, 401k, and, I, think yours also my 401k was a Roth 401k which I think is really rare but you could choose the Roth 401k. So that's like around where I started researching like what's the difference between a Roth and a traditional and I was probably like I think 25 years old at this point and um was the only one of my friends that was like googling like I think I mentioned it to my friends like are y'all investing in a Roth or a traditional and like nobody cares nobody knew the answer for that. So I started getting more into these like finance blogs and so at the time it was um like a target date retirement fund. I've since like since leaving that job just rolled it over into Vanguard. It's like VTSAX. So yeah super high savings rate. Every time we got a new promotion, all of that additional money was like just going into savings. Bought a house that was like our dream house.

I, have, another, question, about, the savings, rate, here., One, of the, challenges I think for a lot of people is, hey there's this order of operations. I'm going to take the match. I'm going to max out the Roth Roth 401k or my 401k um at work. I'm going to, you know, maybe I if, you, I, don't, know if, you, had, an, HSA, at any point sprinkled in into this, but it sounds like you guys were had enough income and low enough expenses to just go through that whole stack maxing those out and still have lots of cash left over to invest elsewhere. Is that correct? And that kind of obiated this like middle class trap problem we've talked about in prior episodes.

Yes., And, we, like, still, kind, of, found ourselves more recently in the middle class trap, which I'll kind of like come around to later because from the time we both quit our jobs like after 2020, I sort of like tuned out and stopped listening to like five podcasts and then years into financial independence was like, "No, HOW DO I ACCESS the rest of this money?"

Yeah. And, then, that's, when, I, went, back, to y'all's episodes. you have multiple episodes on the middle class trap and was like, "Oh, I missed out on like five really good years of content." And I have just been like devouring the past 5 years of your episodes that I had missed out on and I could have saved myself a lot of headache by like not stopping listening after quitting my job.

Yes., It's, like, amazing, what, the unintended consequences of optimal personal finance end up being, you know years down the road and how to how to think about those things. So, it's been it's been really fun discovering that. And they're wildly good problems um to have in the in the community.

Oh,, yeah., There's, so, much, good, postfi content out there right now. I've been listening to a lot of mile high-fi a lot more. But I like thought like, oh well I've already like achieved FI so I don't need to tune in and now I'm glad I am. Again, to answer your question though we were doing like the basic recommended like order of operations. Um I think at the time I was getting that from the Money Under 30 blog, but I think it's pretty similar to what y'all would say too. we weren't eligible for HSAs, so this was like a Roth 401k. Then once we were able to, we both like we maxed those out. Then we started IAS and then we were in like um post tax accounts too. And then real estate like putting money aside, although that comes in after we decide we don't start getting into real estate until we get into fire.

Let's, hear, let's, pick, up, the, story., You tell us where where we left off and and let's keep let's keep rolling here. Um we're maxing out our we house hacking. We have a we're maxing down our whole stack in a really tax efficient order of operations. Still saving on top of that. Life is going good. We're marching towards fire was where we left off.

Life's, going, good., This, is, the, years 2011 to 2016. Basically, we're both like upwardly mobile in our careers. We've bought a house. Like our friends living in the basement like times are good. And the purpose now like the main driving theme in our life at that time was preparing to have a baby. We've like nailed it on the marriage. We bought a house. We've got great jobs. And like next step, like having like a healthy baby, and we felt like we'd done everything right. Like got pregnant like saved up like tons of maternity leave, had the baby, and that's when it like kind of like hit the fan.

Yeah. Y'all, y'all, have, kids, and, you, you, seem like it went really smoothly.

Oh,, sure., Mine, are, 15, and, eight, or, 16 and, 18., Oh,, she's, going to, be, so, mad that I got her age wrong. 16 and 18. Then you forget about all the things that don't go super smoothly. The

first, couple, years, are, hard., Like, it's like a lot like not very you don't get a lot of sleep. It's you it's still expected to to crush it at work and it's a challenge. Childcare expense comes in if you're working. Um that that's that's a pretty major one. I mean it's a big deal and you kind of dismiss it before you have kids and then it's very real once you're going through it or have been through it.

It's, nothing, you, can, really, prepare, for. you know, you those those years 2016 into 2017 were just we were the first in our friend group to have a baby. It was just a it was just a really transitional time for us. And we just came to the conclusion very quickly that two full-time jobs wasn't going to cut it anymore.

Like, um, he, had, like, really, severe collic, which I understand collic is just the like term for like we don't know why the baby cries all the time. He's amazing now. He's nine. He's like our best friend. He's so cool. He's like teaching himself Japanese on Dolingo. He's like he's the best. But at the time he was a rough baby. Like screamed all the time. We weren't sleeping. I changed jobs um to like go to a slightly stressful, less stressful job, but then was offered to become the executive director of the nonprofit I went to work with, which is like too good to say no to. So we found ourselves in this position where it was like we did everything right. like we invested in our marriage. We invested financially.

We responsibly bought with like a low interest rate a beautiful home like our dream home. We like took our health really seriously leading up to having a baby. And then we have this healthy beautiful, bouncing baby boy, but we're looking at each other like this is hell. Like we're both working full-time and having this very cryy baby and not sleeping. We're like, "Something has to change dramatically. Like, we need to pull the rip cord." Like, hit the exit button. This is not where we meant to be. Like, emotionally, mentally marital. Like, we're like fight like not getting along with each other for the first time around then cuz no one's sleeping and we're stressed out.

And, that's, when, we, discovered, fire, which became a lifeline for us. And it was the only thing we talked about and it it really helped our marriage. you know, we had common ground and that's how we started down that road.

Yeah., So,, that's, like, Interfire., I, think it started with just like constantly fantasizing about like how do we quit our jobs? Like we got really I got really into like oh there's people who like world school and they travel around with their kid and they like like they do van van life was like really big at the time. So, I got really into this idea of like we should just like sell everything, quit our jobs and travel around the world because like we we got to get out of this current situation immediately. And then that led to like I think we found like the trip of a lifestyle people, they've got like a cool blog about like you can do that. So once we had it in our heads that like we need to like quit our jobs and travel cuz this is not the life we meant to be in. We need to like do a hard exit strategy. Then fire became like, well that's how you do that responsibly and not just like in a chaotic freewheeling

hippie way. Yes. Like which was kind of the temptation. Mhm., And, so, remind, me, how, close, were, you to fire when you discovered this concept without without even really trying without just by by implementing these best practices? Just like some context we got married in 2011 and our net worth was like close to 200 at that time cuz that was pretty much from him having saved at his job and then us not having any debt from school and then owning the condo. And then from 2011 to 2016, it went up to like about 500,000 and that was from buying the house we then lived in and it appreciated like rapidly. the like Asheville area of North Carolina like well I think like a lot of places like um

a, lot, of, growth a, lot, of, growth, a, lot, it's, kind, of, like Colorado it's very like outdoorsy driving a lot of like house the housing cost going up so by the time our son was born yeah it was like close to 500,000 which like I think Mr. your money mustache. That's like kind of around when I discovered him was like, "Oh, if you I think his figure was like 625. If you can get to like 625, you can quit your job." I was like, "Oh my god, we can quit our jobs. We just have to like eat like canned beans. We can do this."

Like, so that's when like 2017 we like already have a pretty decent net worth. we're already like in a good situation and like decide that we're going to pursue this and then we just start consuming all the information like we would just go on walks together all day and like talk about like the frugal woods like set for life.

Money, or, your, life. Yeah., Your, money, or, your, life., um, The Simple Path to Wealth, like all the podcasts, all the books, like we just were like fanatical and it gave us like something to talk about other than like I'm stressed and I hate my job and the baby is still crying.

One, challenge, I, think, that's, interesting on on this is, you know, how do you think about as you're planning your retirement and talking through this health insurance as as that's going through for your your new and growing family in this situation? At the time we both had really good health insurance through work. So like hadn't like really come up and then when we started to think about fire and like moving towards quitting there was a lot in the fire community at the time about like planning for health insurance and we're like okay are we going to do some kind of like um share pro like y'all had some really good episodes back in like 2019 like specifically about that. So that is around when we start like fantasizing about Canada too. So we're already deciding like we're going to pull the rip cord. We're going to like go all in on achieving fire. We can tell you more about that too. Like how we did it, how

we like put like the pedal to the metal with like side hustles and earnings and real estate.

Yes,, please. That'd, be, great., Let's, let's, hear, that first and then we'll we'll we'll go back to healthcare.

We, made, a, list., I'm, like, just, looking, at my over here. We made a list of all the crazy things we did to save money and earn extra money during that time. And some of them I'd like forgotten about.

We, started, in, 2017, to, get, into, the, world of Airbnb. We renovated our our basement with a home equity loan. We're able to to start that process pretty quickly. And while we were in the world of Airbnb, uh the Airbnb experiences model had just come out in our area. And so I was uh the first uh Airbnb experience in the Asheville area doing brewery tours by canoe. So there is uh there's a side hustle for you. That was a great experience. It's fun. Uh you can only do that for a couple of years before you get worn out. But but it was a it was a great way to in the summertime to have a side hustle and make some extra money.

Yeah., A, canoe, is, not, a, motor, vehicle., So that's perfect, right? For that type of experience.

Yeah., They, we'd, meet, them., They, would canoe like because we kept seeing in like Outside magazine and all these like travel blogs like you can go to Asheville and you can canoe from brewery to brewery but we're big canoers and we know like sure you could do that but it's not actually that obvious. It's not like there's a big sign with a takeout that says here's where you pull off to go to New Belgium or Sierra Nevada or like whatever. So, we knew like people really want to do this and it's not actually obvious how to do it. So, we got like a fleet of used canoes. We like employed a bunch of his friends to help us out and we like would bring it. So at this point like our uh our son is already like a toddler and we would like bring him with us to like run the shuttle. So, people meet they canoe to all these breweries and then they have to Uber back. So, it's like up to them.

But, this was like crazy profitable. like we were making like 2500, a, weekend, doing, that., That, was, just a way of saying, "Wow, we can really do this." I mean, I think that's when our entrepreneurial energy started to really take off. We were able to through Airbnb's help to to kind of really engage in some meaningful side hustles.

Hold, on,, cuz, I, want, to, hear, more, about this $10,000 a month side hustle that you have. $2,500 a weekend is $10,000 a month. That is your profit after paying your friends or that's what's all coming in and then you have to pay your friends.

We, probably, paid, our, friends, 30%, of that. Yeah,, it, depends., Every, trip, you, run, was like

you, get, the, money the, hund, like, in, the, hundreds. So, it's, really, depending, how, hard, was, I willing to work on a given weekend.

Like, is, it, a, holiday, weekend?, Are, we running like six trips a day? And if having our friends we could do simultaneous trips. But yeah, I would say like the max that we would net in a month was like 10,000. Yeah, it was wild. And that we were funneling into real estate. Like we're not spending any of that.

Did, you, sell, that, business, when, you, were done with it? So, this, is, like, the, pro, pros, and, cons, of doing this through Airbnb experiences. If you like I would recommend this for anyone in the fire community. If you're like kind of want to start a business and you are like charismatic and you're like I could run a fun like bar crawl trivia thing, which we actually thought about doing too at the time. We've had friends do it with other things like stand up paddle boarding on a lake or like I'm going to take you like on a comedy tour. It's cool because there's almost no upfront like marketing or planning you have to do. They get you the customers. You're not doing any marketing, but you don't really own the business. like you can't actually like scale it or advertise it differently.

So, we ended up like after we moved to Canada, we like leased all the canoes to a friend of ours and he kept running the business just under our name and like giving us a cut every month. But it's easy to get started, but like Airbnb technically owns it. So, there's pros and cons. Worth looking into though. And we hear this so often and not every story, but many stories of these small businesses that seem like kind of kind of wacky or some like like lucky someone we'll call it or whatever. Like we had a teacher recently that um makes 4,000 bucks a weekend a couple times a year doing wedding photography, right? And it's like what is that for you? And you're not going to discover that overnight., It's, going to, take, many, years and you're going to kind of find that opportunity potentially where that comes into your life. And I think you have to seize it, right? You had the formula of saving from your day jobs and following

a tax advantaged retirement planning strategy and you had the events the the extra boosts on top of that with this. And I think that the power of hitting even one winner with an income an income stream over a lifetime is that mental freedom that it brings to you like oh I can do this. I'm not I'm not as dependent on my job as I otherwise would have been. And it sounds like that's what you guys went through with this experience.

Yes,, Scott., I, mean, that, was, the, energy that we needed to see the proof of of the theoretical right fire idea. And once we started doing that then it was much easier to I don't know rent out a camper van.

Bought, a, used, road, Trek, camper, van, and rented it on um Outdoorsy and like RV Share which was ridiculously profitable. Like the van paid for itself like I think within the first or second summer and then we sold it for what we bought it for to begin with. We just started like renting like everything, renting out our canoes, renting out our basement, renting out our van. Our neighbors made fun of us cuz I guess there's like a Portlandia skit around then. It's like rent it out. Rent out everything you own. And um like that's you.

You, guys, are, commodors, at, this, point, uh on your journey, right? Like that's is that the is that the title that you adopt uh with your your friends and family?

We'll, take, it. Yeah., This, is, around, the, time, that people start thinking we're weird. Yeah.

Yes, definitely., This, is, around, the, time, they start thinking you're weird. This this particular time in your timeline. Spoiler. They thought it before.

Yeah,, for, sure., Cuz, like, we're, becoming the people who are like we're biking everywhere. We're like not buying new things. Like we're like super super frugal and they're already like what are you doing? Like why are you working like multiple jobs but like you also like seem like you're really broke. Also like you own this nice house and like what? And also now you have mentioned that you want to move to Canada. Like this is and this is where we're like let's talk about it because we're super into this thing called fire and there's all these great books we read and these podcasts and it's like crickets.

No, one, wants, to, talk, to, us, about, this. No one is excited about like oh how can I start a side hustle and how can I like like quit my job in a few years because I'm like around this time a lot of our friends like start starting families and getting pregnant too. One reason we were like really excited about coming on the show is we got so much out of like the podcast community and just hearing other people's stories that were like, "Yeah we, could, share, our, story., At least, Scott and Mindy will talk to us."

The, attempts, to, oatize, for, me, were, not taken warmly by all friends and family during my similar phase of my journey as well. So I know I know the feeling there. So luckily we had a podcast that we started 9 years ago so I get to talk about this all the time. That was my outlet.

Yeah., What, I, like, is, those, same, people are now like, "You quit your jobs. How did you do it?" Well, remember how I wanted to talk to you about it in the past and you didn't want to hear it?

Yeah., We, when, we, did, quit, our, jobs, there was a lot of skepticism around that. So, I guess I'll share like real quick. We were doing Yeah. real estate. We bought another house, bought another like small like fixer upper, Airbnb it. It's a long-term rental now. So, we're Airbnb our basement. So, at this point we have like four or five houses. bought a triplex, which is where what we live in now.

Did, you, live, in, all, of, the, properties, or were any one any of them purchased as rentals outright?

They, were, all, purchased, as, rentals. Although we every time we've bought a place, it's with like multiple exit strategies in mind. Like, would I ever personally be okay living here if that is what we needed to do? Could you Airbnb it? Could you long-term rent it? Could you sell it again in the future? So like

and, they're, geographically, close., So,, we have actually lived in these all of these homes at one time or another based on, you know, who's moving in, who's moving out, you know, what can we do to to maximize that?

That's, true., We, actually, have, lived, in all of them at this point. Yeah. So,, how, many, properties, are, we, talking about here?

Um,, it, was, three, single, families, and, a triplex. And then we've since then sold one of the single families. So now we live in one of the units of the triplex and have two other single families that one is a short-term rental because it's like right on a river near a university and it's like wonderful for fishing and for like people visiting their kids who are in college. So it just does really well as an Airbnb and the other's a long-term rental.

And, we, we, transitioned, most, of, them, to long-term and we just found it we found it easier dayto-day. We found that the financial outcome wasn't wasn't that different.

Yeah., Yeah. Oh,, so, the, monthly, to, you, after,, you know, panel that's short-term rental stuff is essentially the same, but the hassle and headache is a lot more with a short-term rental.

Yeah, we, find, that, to, be, true., I, mean,, when you when you factor in cleaning fees and, you know

customer, service, customer, service,, emergencies,, right? You know, when the pipes freeze on Christmas Eve at an Airbnb. Uh that's a funny story. But uh you know these are the kinds of things that especially when you decide to move internationally, you can't have a lot of that emergency scenarios happening when you're living in another country.

Yeah., And, it's, a, funny, story, now., It wasn't a funny story at the time. Oh, no.

Walk, us, through, this, transition, point. Let's actually like hear what happened here. So you work in these jobs. You've done great habits for a long time. You built up a substantial net worth. I I'm I'm gathering kind of like a lean fire number excluding your real estate and your side business um has been accomplished. Is that is that right? And this is like 2018 or 2019.

So, yeah,, baby's, born, in, 2016,, then, we're like really pushing on fire up until 2019. He quits first. So Sam quit his job first. It was just like a good time to transition out of his job because of some other things that were happening at the business at the time. I also had like just become the executive director at this nonprofit and like felt some responsibility to like give an enormous amount of notice and like be part of the transition and finding a new director and like I still like love and work with a lot of these people. So I was like I I was like I need to give it another year.

So when he quit in 2019, the net worth was around 800,000 and that's a mix of property appreciation and investments. And I was 35 at that at that time. So

and, friends, gave, him, a, really, hard, time for quitting because he had like a pretty good job. Neither of us ever had super high salaries. Like I think you were at your job for like a decade and your salary probably ranged from like what?

I, I, never, got, above, 65. Yeah., Well,, with, bonuses, maybe, like, 80 I think there was one year around 70 but I think that's about as as good as it got with the bonuses. Yeah.

Yeah., So, that, job, was, like,, okay, there's not a lot of like you're not going to suddenly have a super high salary. Like you might as well someone's got to quit and like do like cooking and cleaning and like being home with our toddler more. So that immediately helped.

How, much, were, you, making, at, this, time, Carolyn? Like, low, six, figures, like, like, I, think, I got hired into the job at the nonprofit and it's it's like public a public health nonprofit. So like you know, no one goes into public health for the money. So I think uh like 80s something when I was hired and then by the time I became the executive director it was like maybe like 115 which for public health felt extravagant like that's the most I've ever made.

Yes. Okay., So, you, were, making, like, 180ish when Sam quit. What was your net worth or how close to five were you when he left? So by the time he quit, yeah, net worth was about 800,000 and we knew that like he could do this canoe work in the summer. He left on really amicable terms with his job and ended up doing like making videos for

Yeah., videography., Uh, just, sort, of switched from technology to marketing in some strange way. But yeah, there was the side hustles just just increased. I mean, the canoe business, you know, we hired more of our friends, videography uh, renting out the vehicle, you know just just continuing to hustle on that end. And and it was it was great. It be kind, it it, became, my, full-time, job,, the side hustles. And I honestly think as far as earnings, I mean, we were doing okay even without my full-time job.

Yeah., The, side, hustles, probably, replaced your full-time income. And that was the point where when he quit, friends and family gave us a really hard time because they were like he had a really good job and like does he seriously think he's going to be this like Airbnb entrepreneur? Like that's probably like a fad. Like they could shut down tomorrow and all your income is completely dependent on this one company. And that's when we were like yeah, but this is shortterm. The idea is that we've amassed so much in investments and real estate income that he won't need it much longer and then we will just like live off of our investments and real estate income. And that's when we like lost them. They were like, "That doesn't sound real, but we also have no follow-up questions."

Thinking, back, to, the, time, when, I, was, an employee, right? like I like at and this before I be joined Bigger Pockets or became became a CEO, it seems impossible to earn this like additional income or like run these side hustles successfully. But then like once you know as years go by and and at Bigger Pockets is different because I I was I was so like it was such a startup vibe at that point. You're like "Oh, let's try this. Let's try this. Let's try this." And you over time though you get so comfortable with the ideas of like "Oh, there's an opportunity to make money. There's an opportunity to make money. There's an opportunity to make money. How much where's the riskreward?"

It's almost like lower risk as you train your brain over time to be like, "Yeah if I wanted to, I could make much more than I could as an employee with the with this combination of side hustles." And yet that sounds so preposterous to somebody who's very specialized skill set that's been working at one thing for their entire career. It doesn't it doesn't seem possible or practical or reasonable in there. It sounds like that's what you went through and and that those discussions you got that what are you talking about? That that's absolutely crazy. total mindset change and we couldn't have done it without just the constant conversation and like communication about changing that mindset. It really is. Working at a full-time company is a habit forming thing and and it's it's it's just getting out of those habits of just a 9-to-five routine and thinking outside the box that we needed every bit of our

spare time to just think through it and talk about it. And like I think maybe it's like Paula Pant has a really good way of describing like disconnecting like the working for money correlation and like just having a total mindset shift with this like passive income and this idea that like your time spent working on something in the returns don't need to be like a linear correlation. You can create these like passive income streams. So at this time our obsession is like oh I forget who coined this. It was either like the mad scientist or Mr. Money mustache, but like building a wealth machine, like a money machine.

Like, at, this, time,, we're, like, I, have, it in my head that we're building this giant like machine of like passive income streams, real estate investments, and that it's this like I'm picturing like Howl's moving castle. At a certain point, it will be built enough that we'll both step back.

So, he, and, that's, what, you, did, in, 2020. Yeah., So, that's, what, we, did., So, in, 2019, he stepped back and then I kept working a little longer. And this is around the time that we start fantasizing about like well what are we going to do when we quit? It was just like I I don't know like like have a margarita and spend more time with our baby and like like start to like enjoy each other's company again. So that's when we were like we should just move somewhere. Where should we move? And we start looking at like De Brravnik and like Costa Rica. Oh, I got obsessed with this like commune in Costa Rica and uh sent it to a friend of mine who was like that is a cult.

That, helped, the, uh, Yeah., the, family discussion around this being normal right?

Yeah., So, then, like, Yeah., We're, getting deeper and deeper in this weirdo hole of like in everyone's minds.

That's, a, cult, and, you're, already, in, a cult. Yeah., Can, only, do, one, cult, at, a, time. But the geo arbitrage thing is also something that was floating in our minds and the idea of moving out of the country didn't seem so bizarre uh having having listened to all the podcasts about that kind of thing.

Yeah., So, we, were, like, okay, we, could, move like somewhere that's more like climate resilient came up in our heads like so we're looking at like all these towns we could live in and then it occurred to us well if we're going to move anyway let's move to a place that by living there you could get dual citizenship. That's when like the Canada idea came up where we were like there's so many cool towns in Canada. Let's just pick one

and, we, can, drive, there., So,, it's, not, a huge huge deal for our moving back and forth. Yeah.

Yeah., And, then, if, you, go, to, Canada,, you could get dual citizenship and they have free healthcare. And that's around the time that I wrote to y'all back in like 200 Oh, I forget

21, or, 2020., Yeah. No,, it, would, have, been, before, I, quit. So, I think I wrote to you all in 2019 and was like, "Hey, there's all these episodes on like healthcare. Our two biggest expenses postfire cuz we're like months from quitting our jobs are about to be health care and preschool. Those are like massive expenses." And um you know, Canada does both for free. So like, how come I've never heard anywhere in the fire community people strategically moving to Canada? And I think Scott wrote back and was like "Well, cuz that sounds complicated." And do you actually want to live in Canada?

And when, someone, says,, "I'm, going, to, move, to Canada," my first thought is, "Oh, look at all those balmy warm beaches Canada has." Like I'm very sensitive to super super cold and Canada get a little chilly

and, that's, why, we're, back, in, the, States. I'm looking at this email now. I forgot about Yeah. A couple of items pop into my mind. This is 2019. It seems like a lot of trouble to go through the citizenship process for Canada with the primary motivation being free healthcare and preschool. Do you have other reasons for moving to Canada or are those the primary concerns? And then two, how do you plan to occupy your time? I didn't see entrepreneurship or other pursuits listed. I don't think that was in the email. I didn't have this discussion.

Yes, your questions were like, oh, those are actually really good questions. How are we going to occupy our time in Canada while attempting to get citizenship?

Deviling, snow. Yeah., And, then, uh, six, years, later, uh, on Friday, October 17th, I get I get a a follow-up from from you guys. That was awesome. That was so great. Thank you.

Well,, because, I, think, at, the, time, in 2019, I was like, "Oh my god, Scott wrote back. Scott wrote back." And then I was like, "Oh, I don't think he really thinks the candidate idea is like a slam dunk." And then I was like "Oh, I actually feel really embarrassed cuz I don't have a good answer to how we're going to occupy our time other than not what we're doing right now." which now there's so much more content in the FIRE community about like you're retiring into the life you want, not out of a life you don't want. But at the time we were just like it just has to be not this. Like I don't care. I don't even care what town we're living in in Canada. It just has to be not my current life.

And, you, know,, interesting, interestingly enough, I mean that question, what are you going to do to occupy your time? Really got us spinning. And for me, I said, you know what, I got a bachelor's degree in religious studies. I've always really admired that work. Maybe I could switch from technology to theology someday. And that is exactly what I did once I was in Canada and a resident there. Oh my gosh, the education is topnotch and so inexpensive. Um I just got an Ivy League level um theology education and a degree while I was in Canada. So just just yeah that that answered that question. education.

Hopefully our son who will be a permanent or a citizen um can can experience a inexpensive education too.

So, there's, you, know, there's, there's benefits I mean to you know to that. And it took like a year after quitting your job to decide that. He took a whole year of just like I'm just going to like be a dad and I'm going to get my health back in order and I'm going to enjoy being with my wife. And then all of that space to like think made him realize I miss theology. I love reading and writing about theology. I'm gonna go back and get a master's at McGill um which is like one of the best schools in Canada. And he got to go there for like basically free. One thing I want to call out here is at that time we did not have the enhanced premium tax credits, right for Obamacare. Obamacare was in place.

So there was subsidies you could get for healthare, but that was not in place. And so what I want to point out here is I'm going to share my screen for a second. I' I've been modeling around with this cuz I'm a huge nerd on ACA. So I have this like old retirement optimizer calculator that I'm I'm I'm building here. And one of the problems that you were much more in tune with than I was when I asked that question back to you was, you know, from a from a healthcare perspective is this is a really real problem. The health care premiums start high in America right now, but they go higher. Obamacare allows, insurance, plans, to, in, in in, in this depends on your state, but in North Carolina, this is particularly true to uh charge more for age up to three times more for older people versus younger people, as, that, is, one, of the, number, one correlates to health to uh uh claims.

And so your health insurance premium unsubsidized might go from like 16,000 age 45 and I'd have to go back and do this for a 35-year-old to map to your situation, but it will go up to like 34,000 more than doubling by the time you reach 64. and you know or shortly before you're eligible for u Medicare. Was this part of your analysis? Were you aware of this like sliding scale of like how much healthcare was going to increase in costs for you when you asked me that question and this candidate or was it just were you just looking at the sticker price for the current number um and making a decision based on that?

I, think, we, were, just, looking, at, the sticker price for the current number the sticker price for preschool were like our two big things and then just knowing that like we just love the idea of having dual citizenship. So, we hadn't gone that far into it. I think that would have pushed us even further into that camp.

That, movie, you, made,, uh,, despite, my, my questions, which I think we probably were like, that seems like a lot of trouble to go to at that point in time seems to really have ensured your situation forever, uh, in there. It seems like a absolutely brilliant and wonderful move you've made.

Thank, you., Yeah, it, was, an, enormous, amount, of, work. It, was, expensive., I, mean,, to, to, go through the process and the paperwork and the time that it took

and, so, convoluted., So,, I, get, we, can share in case this is like interesting for folks. So, this is around like 2019. I'm like about to quit and we're getting all of this like paperwork in order for applying for Canadian permanent residency. The specific program we did which I think is like uniquely of interest to FIRE people is called the Express Entry Federal Skilled Worker Program. The reason it's like particularly good for FIRE is you can uh move to Canada as a permanent resident with like you're a permanent resident upon entry once you're accepted without having to um have a job or education lined up. If you're about to quit your job anyway, you just need to physically be in Canada and you have access to it's like having a green card here, I guess essentially.

What, does, federal, skilled, worker, mean? Does that mean you're a federal worker in America going to Canada or you're a federal worker in Canada?

That's, it's, a, kind, of, a, weird, title. You're not a federal worker in either place. It's it's a federal program to attract skilled workers.

Oh,, okay., So,, the, idea,, and, this, is, like why a lot of I think FIRE people would be eligible. It's I feel like some parts of this are actually a little bit like messed up, but it's a points system where if you have a high education you're relatively young, you have a good career history, you're basically showing that you're a very desirable person that will likely contribute to the economy of Canada. they will fast track you becoming a permanent resident and then you don't have to have a job to show up because they're assuming you seem like the kind of person who's going to get be able to get a job when you get here. And you have to prove that you speak either English or French. You have to prove before you show up that you have enough money in the bank to support yourself for, at least, a, few, months,, like presumably while you're looking for a job in Canada. and a bunch of other

things like we there was so much paperwork. We had to drive to Alabama to take an English test to prove that we speak English. We had to drive to South Carolina to get fingerprinted.

And, we, had, to, drive, to, Raleigh, to, get, a chest X-ray. Yeah., We, had, to, drive, to, Raleigh, to, get TV test chest X-rays to I guess to like prove that we're not just trying to sneak into Canada with TV. It was like months,

but, we, had, time., We, had, the, time, to, do it. That was the beauty of fire.

You, said, it, was, expensive., What, kind, of money are we talking about here?

Gosh,, I, can't, remember, the, exact amounts, but like you have to pay for the English test, you have to pay for the TV test, you have to pay

These, can't, be, more, than, like, hundreds of dollars though, what you just said right? Like

Oh,, no., I, I, think, like, in, the, like, low like all said and done with like all of the different like fees that you're paying to Canada like in the like like less than 10,000.

Less, than, 10,000. It's, less, than, your, one, year, of, of, uh health insurance premiums in America.

Yeah., I, think, daycare, at, the, time, was like 15,000 a year and, then, you, know, you're, renting, again. You're living in Canada so you're renting right? We didn't buy a property up there. We we were renting. So that you know that of course I mean we're in the middle of Montreal renting. So the the lifestyle was expensive. It's not like moving to another country where the life the the lifestyle expense is so much less. Canada is comparable.

Caveat, and, this, feels, like, a, huge, like duh in retrospect. they are able to offer these amazing amenities uh and these amazing things to their citizens because they do charge more in taxes. So we thought but we're paying we don't have jobs in Canada. Our money's in the US so like we won't have to be paying a lot of taxes there. Turns out you do have to pay Canadian taxes and it's what you've already paid in the US but what you would addition addition on top of that like what they would have charged you. So you're not double paying but you are paying the difference between what you should be paying there. So, we have had to pay a fair amount. Like, there's been the past few years where we owed almost nothing in the US, but still had to pay a few thousand to Canada, but it's still way less than what we got from like our son broke his leg and went to the emergency room and was like in a

wheelchair for like 6 months and we didn't pay a penny. It was worth it. Yeah, it, was.

So,, Canada, has, a, progressive, track, tax system, as, well., So, I, I I, imagine, that you're not realizing much income as a kind of very prototypical early retiree household, right? So So this is these are not much in the way of taxes. It's you said several thousand.

Oh,, yeah., Maybe, like, like, $3,000., Not, a lot. Yeah. How, do, Canadians, feel, about, like, this this move? Like do you ever does this ever come up when when you're talking about hey what we're doing here and are folks is there any push back about hey you're coming in here and not paying into our system but getting all these benefits? Like is that has that ever come up as a discussion point? Um, we have a lot of Canadian friends who are all um they're extremely nice people. No, because we are because we are paying additional taxes by being there and I think um we kept a lot of um of our neighborhood restaurants afloat. Like we

Yeah,, we, certainly, kept, the, breweries, in business and in in the in the Montreal downtown area.

Yeah,, we, spent, a, ton., We, were, in, in, fact like we cuz we had these like this money coming in from the US and then we're spending all of it in Canada. We did have a couple of friends who were like okay like cool like thanks for like pumping money into this economy. Yeah. I think it depends like who you talk to but no nobody begrudged it us of it. Like especially when we mentioned the health insurance every single one of our friends in Canada is like oh my gosh I can't believe what you have to go through for health insurance in the US.

we can't even picture that. Like, of course you want to come here. And, and, I, will, say, that,, you, know,, once once we we started talking to them, they said, "Well, I I've always heard about Americans moving to Canada, but now we finally met one." So, uh that was that was a nice conversation to have.

How, much, time, do, you, have, to, spend, in Canada to satisfy your residency requirements? Because I, you know, I joked about their balmy beaches, but it can get a little chilly up there and you don't you said it was super cold. Can you come back and forth frequently?

So,, this, program, we, talked, about,, it's like fasttracking you to become a permanent resident. Once you're a permanent resident, you have to spend a minimum of 1,95 days physically in Canada before you're eligible to apply for citizenship. Once you're a citizen you don't ever have to come back if you don't want to. Like, you could be gone for a decade. They're not going to revoke your citizenship once you have that Canadian passport. So, we are like close. We moved back to North Carolina before hitting the 1,095 days. So

just, means, we, get, to, travel, to, Canada, uh this summer. And uh yeah,, we're, spending, the, whole, summer, in like Prince Edward Island area to to top off that,095 days and then that's when we qualify for citizenship and then we don't like have to keep coming back and forth.

Okay., And, that,095 days is just three years within, a, 5year, window. Yep., Three, years, within, a, 5-year, window.

Within, a, five, year., Okay., That, is, good to know. Going, back, to, education, and, health, care real quick, what are you doing for your son for education right now? And what are you doing for healthcare now that you're back in the States?

He's, nine, now., So,, he's, just, like, in, a free public school and he loves he loves our community. He loves his school. Like if he didn't like I would have to figure out like how to pay for a private school that he loved or like figure out how to homeschool him. But like thankfully he is happy there. And for health insurance, we were on the marketplace and I think that like after the subsidies, we were paying like around we got like the cheapest possible plan like 400 a month. Now he gets health insurance through work and for us to be on his plan was going to cost like way more than what we currently get with the subsidies. So right now my son and I are still on a marketplace plan. It's currently at the moment still around like I think it's gone up to like 500 a month. So his is free through work and I am kind of just like closing my eyes and like waiting to see what's about to happen with how much it's about to go

up. It's about to go up probably a lot and maybe we'll switch to his which is going, to, it's, going, to, at least, double or triple. Will your household be over that cliff, the FPL cliff, the federal poverty line cliff based on on this or because I think I my understanding is that the premium it's only the enhanced premium tax credits for above that kind of 802 I I guess it's like 70 or $80,000 for your household in North Carolina to be over that cliff and you'll still be eligible for the rest of the subsidies because you'll be under that. Is that right for you guys?

It, depends., So,, with, like, like, real estate income, like a lot of like a lot of that gets like reduced because we've done like a ton of renovations over the past couple of years. So, that income has been pretty low on our taxes. He's making like in the 50s at his job and then I'm also working part-time. So we're going to be like right on the line.

That's, incredible, how, this, cliff, effect and how it creates unbelievable incentives. I actually just this morning listened to the la the episode that came out today with I think her name was Regina.

Yes. And, just, this, morning, was, like,, "Oh, no, I need to start researching this more. I don't know how it's going to affect us yet and what that cliff is going to look like."

I'd, like, to, just, say, two, quick, things. First, of, all,, well,, I, don't, know if, you want to say this where we are now in the net worth because the fire police might say, "Well, we had to go back to our jobs. You know, your net worth must have decreased."

Oh,, yeah., So, for, that, to, be, I, think that's relevant. By the time I quit in 2020, the net worth was around like 1.1 million and I was 33 and we thought like, oh, we can be crazy frugal. Like that's plenty. And I think now I heard you in a recent I don't know how recent the episode was, but you said like 1.8 to like 2.5 is kind of the range people think of these days. Back then I was looking at like Mr. Money Mustache level frugality as the goal. So now, like coincidentally, our net worth just hit 1.8. So I guess the fire police could say like, "Well, no, you're only just you only just now made it." So he could quit, I could quit. Then our income would be like zero. Like we could then like move back to can. Like there's a lot of things we could do. Like you know, we've, you know, like would be happy living in our RV down by the river. Like we have a lot of choices if like things go haywire. So do you call

what you're doing right now retirement? I, think, you, refer, to, it, as, an, optional postretirement career which in theology is actually super like a lot of the people he works with a lot of second career people. He's just 40 years younger than most of them like like semi-retired priests and I'm like yeah working with my friend and it's a startup so it might work out it might not. I think that people miss that this like this is the point. I I'd call what you guys are doing retirement, right? That's what I call it uh audit and and the fact that you found something that pays as well doesn't invalidate that.

And um I I think I think that that's what really makes people's heads explode is they're like that is not retirement. He's working a full-time job. She's doing part-time work. Well, he also skied for six years uh in between and got a theology degree, you know, while raising a young son. That's retirement. That's what that that's what that word means to me at the very least. And I I certainly won't go on the rest of my life not earning another dollar in an early retirement. That's not that's not the plan there. It is absolutely the removal of the requirement to earn dollars. And then yeah, guess what?

Money nerds will take more if that aligns with the interests that we want to do in a general sense. I think that's the confusion of fire and that term retirement is they it does people have a really hard time attaching that word to what you guys are doing. But I think is which I think is actually fairly common among many people in the fire community.

From, my, perspective, in, theology,, there's something deeply liberative and you might even say spiritual about fire. When you can remove yourself from the constraints of money and you can you can get out of that situation. It will free you to do the things that you know in in the faith that we're called to do. So, I I think it's it's really important to say that that this not only is a is a great strategy for early retirement, but what it allows you to do is to just get out of the trap, focus on the things that really matter to you. And in my case, that's, you know, that's the Christian faith. It's helping other people and and I think that's just been um just really wonderful and I'm so grateful to people like you for helping us along the way. To the internet retirement police that are listening to this episode, you can email Sam and Carolyn at tell somebodybody else we don't care.com.

Yeah., Like, if, we, wanted, to,, we, could both quit right now and go back to that beach in Okamal and like keep eating tacos and like drinking dosekis. But like we feel very fulfilled like we we live near. His parents, our uh siblings are nearby. All of our nieces and nephews are nearby, which is super important to us to like be a big presence as aunts and uncles. Our kid's an only child, so for him to grow up in your family is really important. Like

gosh,, it, does, feel, like, we're, retirees. Thanks for telling reminding us about that.

Yeah,, that's, partly, why, we, wanted, to come on the show cuz we were like, wait did we mess up? Like we forgot to do a Roth conversion ladder and we like I don't feel like we're like mismanaging.

Oh, yeah,, you, messed, up. Sorry., Nope., We're, just, gonna, erase, all of this episode now because you didn't do a Roth conversion letter. I have done zero Roth conversion letters at this point in time. I have done 072ts. I still work. I could be FI. My husband calls himself FI. He calls himself wife FI because I still work and then we don't have to withdraw anything from our retirement accounts. What do I say? Personal finance is personal. So, if your retirement, in air quotes to satisfy the internet retirement police who really need to get a life, if your retirement includes work, great. That's you're still retired cuz you can choose to work or choose to not work. And this is how you choose to spend your time.

And I think it's awesome. Yeah., And, I, love, it., Like, I'll, just, just to like just brag on him like we've been married for I don't know, we've been together like almost 20 years and I've never been like more proud of him. like he just the work he does like like consoling people who are grieving and like checking in with people who don't have enough food to eat and like looking out for kids who are in families who are going through something really hard. Like he's doing amazing work and I've I don't know, like, I've, just, never, been more proud of him. It's just really cool.

And, you're, in, public, health, during, a really hard time. So kudos to you. So, I think like he's living his best life. And I've never been more in love with him that his version of what retirement looks like is like serving the community at a local church. I just Oh my god that's so sweet. Like, yeah. Like, you know, we we did the margaritas on the beach and that he's like, "This is how I want to spend my life." It's just amazing., I'm, just, I, don't know., I, just won the husband lottery.

Wow., Okay,, I'll, take, her., Goodness gracious. Did you guys significantly draw down on your core financial portfolio during this early retirement period or was there enough income coming from rental properties or other sources in a general sense to really obiate the need to sell much of your kind of core equities, the, the the, the, core, positions in your portfolio?

Yeah,, that's, a, good, question., We, didn't really get into the details of our like deumulation. Um, I guess long story short, the first year like 2020 to 2021 we were just like living off of like post tax like brokerage accounts and then the rental income. And then we were going to start doing some more like complicated draw downs from investments but we ended up selling one of the houses because like it had just appreciated so much, but had also kind of started to become a headache to manage for a variety of reason to rent was it was it was not the 1% rule ideal.

It was not the ideal situation. It was like the house was so nice that you could only rent it to like really rude fancy people. Um, so we sold that house and then have basically been living off the proceeds of the sale of that house. And then those are now like running out and that's the point where I was like, I forgot to do the Roth conversion ladder cuz that's when this would be coming in. I meant to start that 5 years ago. There's almost like a like a like if you could go back, you would have taken this tax tax-free capital gain, used that low income year to do a bunch of Roth conversions and then started withdrawing from from that point and and that opportunity was missed to a certain degree, but it clearly did not blow up your your whole plan here.

Yeah,, it's, fine., We, had, a, lot, of, like really low income years and we should have done the Roth conversions in those years. Now that he is working and I'm working part-time, we're actually about to meet with um is it Tangerine or Nectarine? the financial nectarine.

It, sounds, like, that's, a, great, like, like like that's almost like a great plug for financial planning. Like if if there was a financial planner that knew what was going on here and you you'd had that relationship that it sounds like that could have like like it actually might have made a several tens of thousands or maybe hundreds of thousands of dollar difference over a long period of time.

So, yeah,, better, late, than, never, to, get like a good plan in order. You know, we have I'm I'm 38 and he's 42. So, if all goes well, you know, we've got another like 50 or 60 years. So, you know, we need to like get a good plan in place.

I, love, it., I, think, that's, a, great, place to to wrap up the journey here. You guys sound like you're doing so phenomenally well. Thank you guys so much for reaching out all those years ago and then following up uh 6 years later.

And, thank, you,, cuz, we, couldn't, have, done it without fire. And that's why I emailed again because it was this like episode where you were like, "Oh, people are like fire is dead and like fire doesn't work anymore and why should you even pursue fire?" And you sounded kind of sad about it and I was like, I got to reach out and say Scott and Mindy, thank you so much. Like the fire community all of this information changed our lives. We went from being like middle class trap, like miserable parents with a baby to like he's just doing this amazing work now. And um that's why I wrote again to you guys just to be like FYI, things turned out great and it's thanks to you.

Thank, you, so, much., And, whoever, is listening, I've gotten a number of emails like this over the years and I try to respond to every single email. I probably missed a few over over them over the years there, but if I've ever responded and you know, I I it's just such a joy to hear a follow-up a few years later um in there or to hear if something's not going well and and if there's issue there that none of this is um financial or legal advice. It's all entertainment purposes only um or questions that I pose typically, but it's just so great to hear back from that. So, please email me at scottbigpocketsmoney.com.

That's my new email address scottpocketsmoney.com. If uh we've ever conversed, I'd love to hear an update out there. And thank you so much, Sam and Caroline, for for for doing that here.

And, for, any, listeners, who, are, on, the fence about coming on the show, it was so much fun and it forced us to like get all of our like current finances in order and write down our story, which is something we've been meaning to do. So like huge um plug for coming on the show if you're thinking about it.

All, right,, Sam, and, Carolyn,, thank, you, so much for your time today. This was a really fun story. I heard a lot of aspects of my own mirrored in yours and a lot of aspects of other people's fi journey mirrored in yours. And I'm so thankful that you had time to come on the show and share with us. Is there any place people can find you online? We're not actually super online, but I would say if you want to find us anywhere, um come support the economy in Western North Carolina. It was hit really hard by Hurricane Helen, but it is open for business now. Come shop, you know Western North Carolina local businesses but no, we're not like really online. We don't, have a, blog.

Get, in, a, canoe, and, and, go, find, a brewery. That, sounds, like, a, lot, of, fun., Really? I'll connect with you so you can be my brewery guide.

Okay. Okay., Thank, you, again, so, much, and, we will talk to you soon. Thank, you.

Thank, you. All, right,, that, was, Sam, and, Carolyn, and that was a really fun story. Scott, I have never heard of anybody going to Canada for dual citizenship as a way to hedge against our health care costs here in America. But as you and I have been covering, healthcare costs in America are going up. The Senate has decided not to extend the additional tax credits that people in the fire community were taking advantage of. So, this is going to be a real concern for a lot of people. I really enjoyed this story. I love their FI journey. It's it's reminiscent of so many other people's FI journeys. Spend less than you earn.

Invest intelligently and, you know, look towards the future. I'm, so, amazed, that, they, did, it, right. like they they they've emailed me and you know I can tell from my email I was like a little bit like I don't know I don't know about moving to Canada uh as that's pretty hardcore commitment to fire but it worked for them. It did like they've lived their best life the last 6 years and I I hope a lot more people do uh those things. I think it's still too much for me to consider doing. I'm a homebody and like being here in Colorado. um I like my routine and where where I'm at in my community and I so I don't, think, I'm, going to, be, doing, that and I'd rather you know I I decided you know and I had the privilege of having the job at Bigger Pockets to to build wealth that would allow me to just do that here. But I think it's going to be an option that will open more people's eyes to the power of geographic

arbitrage. I also want to call out that the mindset is so huge in the scenario. Again, I can relate to this so much as an employee starting out of my career and then later on when I was earning higher income at my my CEO job. It's it's it's very scary to contemplate doing these other things to earn additional income or even sometimes basic household maintenance or or or you know playing around with the systems in your in your your property or or those types of things. It can be a little hard to conceive of if you are a reasonably well compensated employee who's been at it for a long time. Those that's your specialty. That's what you're good at and it's hard to imagine other ways to make money. But even if you just do it a little bit on the side in a part-time basis and you finally hit one thing that earns a little bit of income that's that's reasonably material to your situation, I think that flips the script

for your brain for the rest of your life potentially that makes a lot of these things more accessible. And that's why I'm such a big believer and such a big proponent of these side hustles of trying to get that entrepreneurial itch scratched alongside your core journey to fire where you are going through all the best practices from a tax advantage uh account perspective because I think it will open your your mindset and your you it'll make you feel able to do what Sam and Carolyn did here uh on their on their journeys much much earlier in life

and, even, if, it, doesn't, get, you, retired at 32 or retired at 33 it will still get you so much more as a person who is understanding your financial situation who is working towards this goal. I would encourage people who are like "Oh, they did it when they were so young. That's not relevant to me." Listen to the rest of the story because the story has so many lessons that you can teach. And it's it's so similar to so many other stories that I've heard. One last thing I got to call out here because I just we just didn't talk about it enough is when they aligned on the vision for their life and aligned around the goal of fire, right? I think that's something that is so powerful is to just have some kind of artifact, something written down that says here's what we want in life that describes it. You know, there there's a there's a template for this at biggerpocketsmoney.com/resources if you want to use ours, but like it can

be a piece of paper. It can be a word document. Just type that out with your significant other, you know, in a setting where you're both proactive, you know, happy and excited. And and I think that will just be such a powerful simple exercise to align on on goals like fire or some variation of it that accompanies, you know, building wealth and living the best life that you want to live in the the next couple of years. I think it's I think it's so overlooked and that was so powerful. That was I think a huge catalyst for their their journey that we didn't discuss deeply enough.

Yeah,, Scott,, your, goal, setting, document is fantastic. Carl and I are still working on it because it takes a lot of thought. We know what we want, but actually articulating it can take a little bit more than just, you know, oh this this is how I want my life to live. And we're on the same page. And it I think it's a really powerful document. Even if you're, you know, especially if you're not on the same page, get yourselves aligned together because having somebody, having a partner on this journey makes it so much easier than having an adversary on this journey.

That's, again, just, free, to, download., You don't have to give us your email address or anything. We would welcome you to give us your email address if you want to uh get an update every week from us but that's at biggerpocketsmoney.com/resources. Um, you can just download that either in a uh PDF or as a uh a Google doc. Oh hey Scott. If our listeners would like to improve their financial situation that document is part of the 31-day DIY financial challenge. So, Scott and I put together 31 days of free emails that we send to you every single day, giving you a task to work on your finances so that you can get a better handle on your finances and elevate them to the next level. And you can sign up for that email challenge at biggerpocketsmoney.com/31days.

Mindy's, being, very, generous, here, with this. Bigger biggerpockets.com/31 days. The number three the number one days. Mindy put this together. This is a really incredible resource and plan here. I I have not completed all of the steps in the 31day challenge personally. So I look forward to actually getting my personal finances in shape here. like I host a podcast on personal financial responsibility as part of this challenge uh myself. So, thank you for putting this together, Mindy. I'm looking forward to it personally here.

And, if, you're, listening, to, this, later down the road, you can still go to biggerpocketsmoney.com/31day and sign up and it'll automatically start., All right,, Scott,, should, we, get out of here?

Let's, do, it. That, wraps, up, this, episode, of, the BiggerpocketsMoney podcast. He is Scott Trench. I am Indie Jensen saying cheers dears.

Questions about this episode

What is discussed in "How this Couple Achieved FIRE in Their 30s!"?

In order: 0:00 Money Under 30, Ardriano Carolyn, Mindy Jensen, Mr. Money Mustache; 10:00 Mr. Money Mustache, Set for Life, The Simple Path to Wealth, Your Money or Your Life; 20:00 Ardriano Carolyn; 30:00 Express Entry Federal Skilled Worker Program, McGill, Mr. Money Mustache; 40:00 Mr. Money Mustache, Prince Edward Island; 50:00 Ardriano Carolyn; 1:00:00 Ardriano Carolyn, Scott Trench.

What is mentioned in this BiggerPockets Money episode?

12 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Ardriano Carolyn, Secret Service Sam, Mr. Money Mustache, Money Under 30, Scott Trench, Set for Life. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "How this Couple Achieved FIRE in Their 30s!"?

The episode runs 1 h 6 min; the transcript is about 13,717 words in 175 timestamped sections.

More from BiggerPockets Money

About this transcript: the episode's spoken words as captioned on YouTube, split into timestamped sections. Reclip.Me locates every person, work and idea in the text, keeps the time it is first named, and quotes the words around it verbatim. Last updated January 24, 2026.