Transcript

Could Joining a Police Explorer Program Put Your Child in Danger?

From Crime Junkie · Episode page · Watch on YouTube

· 1 h 11 min · 12,439 words · 145 timestamped sections

This is the full, timestamped transcript of "Could Joining a Police Explorer Program Put Your Child in Danger?", an episode of Crime Junkie published December 22, 2025 (1 h 11 min, about 12,439 words). It mentions 21 people, works and ideas, including Francisco (full name unknown), Daniel Bowman, IMPD Explorer program, Heidi Gatliff, Indianapolis Metropolitan Police Department.

What this episode is about

The discussion centers around the troubling realities of the Police Explorer program, highlighting systemic issues that have allowed abuse within the organization to persist. Through investigative stories, including the case of Sandra Burmore and other troubling incidents, the narrative reveals a pattern of exploitation that raises serious concerns about the safety of children involved in such programs.

Key takeaways

  • Trusting the police can lead parents into a false sense of security—just ask the victims of the Explorer program.
  • The heartbreaking suicide of Heidi illustrates how systemic flaws can breed tragedy under the guise of public service.
  • Heidi's journey from vibrant Explorer to tragic statistic reveals that even smiles can mask desperate struggles.
  • Through the lens of tragedy, we must question: how many more Heidi's are hidden in flawed systems?
  • The Explorer program may seem harmless, but a deeper dive shows it could be a factory for future scars.

Who speaks in this episode?

What is discussed, and when

  1. – 10:00: Mike Gatliff, Heidi Gatliff, IMPD Explorer program, Indianapolis Metropolitan Police Department
  2. – 20:00: Corbin Meyers, Daniel Bowman, Janice Gatliff, Learning for Life
  3. – 40:00: Daniel Bowman, 2015 (Heidi Gatliff death and related events), Janice Gatliff, 2025 (IMPD policy change)
  4. – 50:00: Learning for Life, Boy Scouts, John Laros, Knives Out
  5. – 1:00:00: John Laros, Jennifer (full name unknown)
  6. – 1:10:00: Nina (full name unknown), Daniel Bowman, Janice Gatliff, Learning for Life

Notable quotes from "Could Joining a Police Explorer Program Put Your Child in Danger?"

  • Covered in our last episode. I was shocked and outraged at how she was taken advantage of in the Police Explorer program because like my god, surely parents have to believe…
    about IMPD Explorer program · at
  • Thing. And it really cemented her desire to become a cop. And just days before her death, she had been promoted to post commander and captain, something that she was thrilled…
    about Heidi Gatliff · at
  • When her dad found her. So, police collected it and asked her parents for the passcode. But Mike and Janice are kind of taken back. passcode?
    about Mike Gatliff · at
  • Of the records, including a lot of the texts. And listen, we've worked with a lot of agencies over the years. IMPD has consistently been one of the hardest to get records from.
    about Indianapolis Metropolitan Police Department · at
  • To call Daniel. And after the messages were wiped, that is when the phone was locked. So that November, more than 2 years after Heidi's death, Francisco is arrested for felony…
    about 2015 (Heidi Gatliff death and related events) · at
  • Right? So in August of 2018, that is when Daniel goes to trial for his domestic violence charges. Now he gets found guilty on eight of the 13 counts, but that's all involving his then wife, not Heidi.
    about Daniel Bowman · at
  • And what happened to Francisco? So, in 2022, Francisco pleaded guilty to a reduced misdemeanor obstruction of justice. He gets a year of probation, 240 hours of community service, and is ordered to submit weekly journal entries.
    about Francisco (full name unknown) · at
  • Authorities. So, all that to say, I bet you would be surprised to know that in 2015, Learning for Life still had no guidance on adult communication with teens outside of…
    about Learning for Life · at

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

  • Francisco (full name unknown) — Person · Key alleged perpetrator / officer tied to evidence · 60 mentions
    An IMPD officer who had extensive contact with Heidi, allegedly deleted messages and locked her phone, and pled guilty to obstruction-related charges.
  • Daniel Bowman — Person · Key alleged perpetrator / Explorer adviser · 3 mentions · first at
    He ran the Explorer post, became close to the family, was later convicted of domestic violence, and is alleged to have had an inappropriate relationship with Heidi.
  • Heidi Gatliff — Person · Central victim / case focus · 2 mentions · first at
    Her 2015 death and involvement in the IMPD Explorer program anchor the episode’s investigation into grooming, misconduct, and institutional failures.
  • Mike Gatliff — Person · Victim’s father / primary family perspective · 4 mentions · first at
    He discovered Heidi, interacted with Francisco at the home, and provides the family’s viewpoint on the investigation and perceived betrayal.
  • Janice Gatliff — Person · Victim’s mother / primary family perspective · 4 mentions · first at
    She recounts warnings from an IMPD official, relies on Daniel Bowman for support, and describes the family’s unanswered questions and frustration.
    Right. It's obvious that someone in leadership saw something, at least with Francisco, because Janice told us that apparently in the spring of 2015, so this is months before…
  • Corbin Meyers — Person · Witness / recorder of key call · 3 mentions · first at
    He recorded Francisco’s calls (one-party consent) and provided recordings to police and the show, adding evidence of Francisco’s behavior and narrative shifts.
    With her friends, he leaned into it fishing trying to find out what they knew. Corbin actually gave those recordings to police and he also shared them with us.
  • Nina (full name unknown) — Person · Reporter (referenced contributor) · 3 mentions · first at
    She is described as the reporter who spent months uncovering systemic issues and conducted interviews; full name not provided in transcript.
    When Nina spoke with Sergeant Montana earlier this year, they were just starting to phase them in with very strict rules. And we spoke to a woman named Don Bolley in Wisconsin. She says.
  • John Laros — Person · Alleged perpetrator in comparative case · 3 mentions · first at
    Identified as the Explorer adviser who allegedly groomed and sexually assaulted 'Kate' in New Hampshire, illustrating broader systemic risks beyond IMPD.
    Be a cop. The post seemed like the perfect first step. A small group of teens led by Officer John Laros, who was in his late 20s. And John's mom had been a teacher of Kate, so…
  • Jennifer (full name unknown) — Person · Survivor story / comparative case · 2 mentions · first at
    Her experience in a California sheriff Explorer program is used to show inconsistent accountability and long-term impacts of grooming.
    Sometimes nothing at all. And that's what happened in Jennifer's case. In the late8s, Jennifer joined the Contraosta County Sheriff's Explorer program in California after…
  • Brad (full name unknown) — Person · Referenced participant (brief) · 1 mention · first at
    Addressed briefly by the host as someone with a teenager to illustrate how phones provide insight into teen life; full name not provided.
    A mystery surrounding it. And it quickly becomes obvious that what led up to it might involve one of their own. Now, Brad, I know you have a teenager.

Companies & orgs

  • Indianapolis Metropolitan Police Department — Company · Core institution under scrutiny · 1 mention · first at
    IMPD ran the Explorer program and investigated the aftermath; the episode critiques its oversight, transparency, and delayed policy changes.
  • Learning for Life — Company · Referenced governing body / policy framework · 6 mentions · first at
    Learning for Life is described as the umbrella organization for many Explorer programs; the episode highlights gaps in its guidance (e.g., texting rules) and ride-along loopholes.
  • Boy Scouts — Company · Comparative reference for systemic abuse · 2 mentions · first at
    Referenced to contextualize Learning for Life’s affiliation and to highlight historical patterns of institutional mishandling of youth sexual abuse.
    Problems with them, but quick download. In 2020, the Boy Scouts filed for bankruptcy after being hit with over, wait for it, 82,000 sexual abuse claims. One of the largest…

Concepts & topics

  • IMPD Explorer program — Concept · Core topic / system being investigated · 2 mentions · first at
    The episode argues the program’s structure (especially ride-alongs and weak oversight) enabled grooming and misconduct in Heidi’s case and beyond.
  • ADHD — Concept · Personal context factor · 1 mention · first at
    Used to explain why hands-on learning in the Explorer program suited Heidi and increased her confidence and engagement.
    And he was right. Heidi had ADHD. She struggled with a traditional classroom, but exploring let her learn by doing.
  • FBI — Concept · Referenced aspiration / career goal · 1 mention · first at
    Mentioned as Heidi’s early dream in middle school, illustrating her long-standing ambition in law enforcement.
    And driven. She loved helping people. that's what drew her to law enforcement. In middle school, she actually dreamed of the FBI, but over time, she set her sights on IMPD, the…

Places & events

  • 2015 (Heidi Gatliff death and related events) — Event · Anchor timeline event · 2 mentions · first at
    The episode’s main case centers on November 2, 2015 and the months around it, including warnings in spring 2015 and the immediate investigation aftermath.
  • 2025 (IMPD policy change) — Event · Policy-change reference point · 2 mentions · first at
    Cited as the year IMPD added a policy barring officer involvement with explorers, underscoring how long safeguards took to implement after Heidi’s death.
    Like that was only added this year 2025.

Media & podcasts

  • The Deck — Media · Cross-promotion · 1 mention · first at
    Ashley Flowers promotes her other podcast during the episode; not central to the Explorer-program investigation.
    To be heard and the loved ones of these victims still deserve answers. Are you ready to be dealt in? Listen to the deck now wherever you get your podcasts.
  • Knives Out — Media · Advertisement reference · 1 mention · first at
    Mentioned in an ad read unrelated to the episode’s investigative content.
    Wixs, it's clear that all is not well in the pews. Written and directed by Ryan Johnson, critics are calling it the sharpest knives out movie yet. Watch Wake Up Dead Man, a…
  • Wake Up Dead Man — Media · Advertisement reference · 1 mention · first at
    Mentioned as part of a promotional segment; not part of the Explorer-program investigation.
    The pews. Written and directed by Ryan Johnson, critics are calling it the sharpest knives out movie yet. Watch Wake Up Dead Man, a knives out mystery in select theaters on November 26th and only on Netflix December 12th.

Full transcript with timestamps

Hi, crime junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers. And I'm Brit. And the story I have for you today isn't just one story, but it started that way for me with Sandra Burmore, which we covered in our last episode. I was shocked and outraged at how she was taken advantage of in the Police Explorer program because like my god, surely parents have to believe that sending their kids to learn from the police has to be the safest place for them. What a betrayal. But I began to wonder, was this the exception or was this just one example of a system with deep rooted problems that lets abuse thrive? And just as I was asking this very question, literally within like 2 weeks of Sandra's story breaking, I saw a local news article. It said, "IMPD officer tied to teens suicide ordered to write weekly journal in rare sentence. a teen who was part of the Indianapolis Metropolitan Police Department's Explorer program. And as I dug into her

story, I realized that we were just scratching the surface of a much, much bigger problem. The more I looked, the more I found. And me and our reporter Nina have spent months uncovering a systemic issue with the Explorer program that is required listening for everyone. Crime junkie or not, this is an episode that must be shared because you won't believe what has been happening right under our noses for decades.

For Mike Gatliff, time stopped on Monday, November 2nd, 2015, right around 4:41 p.m. And now his life is split into before and after. Before, he was living out the most average day. Went to work at the Indianapolis Police Pawn unit. Came home to the house that he shared with his wife Janice, their 18-year-old daughter, Heidi, and their 21-year-old son. He'd just gotten out of his car and was bringing up some leaf bags from the yard when this familiar face came up to him. 29-year-old IMPD officer Francisco, known to him and most as Paco. Now, even though Mike's a civilian employee for IMPD, the only reason he really knew Francisco was because of Heidi. She had been a part of the department's explorer program for nearly 2 years, and he knew that she had done some ride alongs with Francisco over the past few months. And Francisco had never just shown up at their house before, unannounced. and not

in uniform. But he says that he's there that day to talk to Heidi about a case.

She's an explorer. What kind of case would you need to talk to? Like explorer part. They're not working cases. They're not officers.

Yeah, you're right. They're not. But Mike isn't even concerned. Along with working for IMPD, he's also a fire department chaplain. So like their whole family trusts first responders. And IMPD was Heidi's life basically. I mean, everything she's done has been working up to getting on the force. Maybe she's getting like a little inside peak. Like any crime junkie would love.

Oh, for sure. It would be great. Whatever. So, he tells Francisco that, you know, he just got home, but Heidi's car is in the driveway, so she's got to be inside. So, like, come on in. He invites Francisco in through the garage, but Francisco stays at the entrance while Mike goes inside to get Heidi. Now, inside, her bedroom door is closed. Mike knocks and then he walks in when she doesn't answer. And this is the moment that time stops because once he opened that door, he would always be living in the after. After he found Heidi laying in bed where he kissed her goodbye that morning. Before she was warm and alive, his beautiful daughter was so much potential. And after she is still and pale with a gun near her head and her hand close to it. Now, Mike rushes to Heidi and calls out for Francisco, realizing that he hadn't followed him in. And Francisco comes running. But even though he's the trained officer,

it's Mike who slips into first responder mode. He's the one that calls 911 at 4:41 p.m., and he's the one who gives dispatchers what they need, while Francisco is just like falling apart. Medics and IMPD officers arrive within minutes, and Heidi is pronounced dead there at the scene. And the rest of the night is just a blur of chaos. Mike calls Janice at work, bringing her into the after, and she remembers the moment that she collapsed and had to be driven home. There, friends and family gather while police seal off the house.

Officers line the street in a show of respect for Heidi as one of their own, and everyone is left reeling, trying to make sense of something that makes no sense. I mean, the day before everything seemed pretty normal. The family went to church like always. Later, Heidi skipped baking cookies with her mom. She said she had plans with a friend. And then when she came home, she seemed a little upset, but nothing major. She went back out, came home again sometime later. Mike didn't see her get back, which was like a little odd,

but there was nothing that like screamed crisis. Not even close. Mike is trained to recognize the warning signs of suicide, and he hadn't noticed any. Plus, like Heidi is known for her upbeat personality. She is bright and bubbly and driven. She loved helping people. I mean, that's what drew her to law enforcement. In middle school, she actually dreamed of the FBI, but over time, she set her sights on IMPD, the department that she got to know through the Explorers. Mike was actually the one who'd first heard about the program and thought it would be a good fit for her.

And he was right. Heidi had ADHD. She struggled with a traditional classroom, but exploring let her learn by doing. She worked security at the Indianapolis 500. She helped on mall patrols. I mean, her confidence was growing with every single shift. And her favorite part were the ride alongs. Sitting beside an officer, following calls, watching arrests unfold. It felt like the real thing. And it really cemented her desire to become a cop. And just days before her death, she had been promoted to post commander and captain, something that she was thrilled about. So for Heidi's parents and her brother, like this isn't just grief. It is whiplash. But even in that grief and their darkest moments, her family has never disputed that Heidi's gunshot wound was self-inflicted. I mean, she even left a note on Mike's computer, which they found later. But there still are so many questions about what led up to her death

and why. And the note didn't give any explanation. Not one that they fully understood or not one that like filled in all the gaps of how things ended up the way they did. Like in the note, she apologized to her parents. She said it wasn't their fault, but that she'd made some mistakes. She felt like she was hurting people's careers. It was vague. It was a little confusing for them. And there was nothing in recent memory that they could call back to that made this make sense. And listen, credit where credit is due for IMPD because they are going to get their fair share of heat in this episode, too. They did the thing that you're supposed to do. every death should be treated as suspicious until you definitely rule that it's not. And even though everyone was in agreement that this was a suicide, there was still a mystery surrounding it. And it quickly becomes obvious that what led up to it

might involve one of their own. Now, Brad, I know you have a teenager. Mhm. What is the one thing that can give you insight into their life? The portal into their internal world.

Their phone. Correct. Hidden in Heidi's calls and texts might be all the answers that her family is looking for. And that phone still playing music was near her head when her dad found her. So, police collected it and asked her parents for the passcode. But Mike and Janice are kind of taken back. Like, passcode? Heidi's not supposed to have a passcode. They have a house rule against it. But detectives tell them the phone's locked. And listen, it's not like Heidi couldn't have broken that rule if there were things that she didn't want her parents to see or know after she was gone. So, they like toss out some guesses. Police try them, but nothing works. And eventually, the phone disables completely. And there's just something that feels wrong about this. You see, after Mike found his daughter, Francisco had asked Mike to use Heidi's phone so that he could call the adviser who ran her Explorer post. Call them for what?

And also use your own phone. Mike didn't know why he was asking. I mean, he had in that moment zero brain space to even consider the weirdness of the request. Yeah. I mean, he just found his daughter, but Francisco was able to place that call presumably without having a passcode to open the phone, which means

Francisco locked the phone. Yeah. And there is only one reason that you would need to do that and that is if you don't want anyone to see what's on it. Some cases fade from headlines. Some never made it there to begin with. I'm Ashley Flowers and on my podcast, The Deck, I tell you the stories of cold cases featured on playing cards distributed in prisons designed to spark new leads and bring long overdue justice. Because these stories deserve to be heard and the loved ones of these victims still deserve answers. Are you ready to be dealt in? Listen to the deck now wherever you get your podcasts.

Everything around Francisco is starting to stink. He came to talk to Heidi about a case, which makes no sense now that the blinders are off. He froze and freaked out in a moment of crisis and had her dad be the one to call 911. And then he used her phone to make a call after they found her. And now no one can get into the phone. Like come on.

So for all those reasons, detectives have a conversation with Francisco pretty quickly, like the next day, Tuesday, November 3rd. And he tells them that he met Heidi when she was on a ride along with an ambulance crew. That was back in January, just after her 18th birthday. And Janice told us it was actually maybe even earlier at a charity boxing event when Heidi was still 17. But either way, they started talking and Francisco encouraged her to join him on patrol. He worked a high crime area known as the swamp where something was always happening and Heidi jumped at the chance.

So this was after she joined the explorers, right? She had actually already been in the program for over a year by that point. And Francisco had no official explorer role, but it like kept them in each other's orbit basically. So he says they grew close about 15 ride alongs, working out together a couple times a week and talking almost daily through text and Snapchat. That doesn't sound normal right?

It shouldn't be. Okay. I mean, like many explorer posts across the country, IMPD's program operates under Learning for Life, which is an affiliate of Scouting America.

Okay? And that organization forbids close social relationships between leaders and participants no matter their age. But Francisco doesn't work with the post. So that rule technically wouldn't apply to him. And at the time IMPD didn't have a policy barring officers from getting involved with explorers. Like that was only added this year 2025. Now, technically, since Heidi was 18, if something was going on between them, it wouldn't have been illegal,

but but ethically, yeah, it's a different story. Ethically, he is a unformed officer in a position of authority hanging out with a teenager who clearly looked up to him. So, even if you take Francisco at his word, which is that nothing sexual happened,

it still feels wrong to me. But anyways, Francisco tells police that Heidi seemed fine Sunday night. They'd even made plans to work out that week. But by Monday afternoon, something had changed. He said that she called him out of the blue at around 1:00, told him she couldn't talk to him anymore, but that she loved him and it wasn't his fault. She thanked him for everything and then hung up, which rattled him, and he tried calling back and then finally drove to her house. And ultimately, he admits that he lied to Mike. He didn't want to alarm him if this turned out to be nothing. So, he made up the whole thing about having to talk to her about a case. Yeah. So then he hangs back and lets her dad find her.

Zero spying. Yeah. And lots of ick feelings about this for me. But still nothing illegal that we know of where he crossed a hard line in the sand. Was even touching her phone. I mean, this dude's been a cop for 10 years. He knows not to touch evidence in an active death investigation. And if he really needed to contact the explorer adviser, he could have asked responding officers to reach out

or use his own phone or like you said before, use his own phone. Yeah. Like it does not sit right. So this is when the case is bumped to IMPD's special investigations unit. And while they get their ducks in a row, a digital forensic expert is trying to get into Heidi's phone. And Mike and Janice are just trying to survive each day. And they are left in kind of an unclear position. Like they know that there is an ongoing investigation, something involving Francisco and Heidi's phone, but they're not getting any real details, and they don't fully understand why this is happening for a clear-cut suicide. So, one of the people that they lean on during this time is 32-year-old Daniel Bowman.

He was Heidi's explorer adviser, her mentor, the cop running the meetings and taking her ambition seriously. And now that Heidi's gone, he really steps up for the Gatliff's personally. The explorers help with funeral arrangements. Daniel carries Heidi's earn and gives a speech. And he doesn't just forget about the family once those big moments are over. He keeps checking in. He keeps sharing stories about Heidi. And for Janice especially, he becomes a lifeline because Mike and their son grieve in a different way. Like they're very private. They're very quiet. But Janice needs to talk about her daughter. And Daniel is always available to listen. By the end of 2015, I mean, he is practically family. He seems like a steady source of support, someone who cared about Heidi's future and shares their pain and their questions. But he also said that he feels guilty because of how everything went down. According to Daniel, sometime

the morning of November 2nd or like in the early afternoon, Heidi sent him a Snapchat saying that he was a great guy and she loved him, which wasn't like her. And then she sent another and he replied asking what was going on, but she never answered. Court records show that he sent her 16 messages over the next few hours and none of them were even read. And then later that day, his phone rang and it was Heidi's number calling, but the voice on the line was a man yelling that she was dead. Now, Daniel says he didn't recognize the voice as Francisco's. And he didn't like know him super well. Like Daniel might have seen him around, but they'd never spoken. He didn't really even know his name. He said that he didn't even connect the voice to him until they met at the Gatliff's that evening.

So, if they didn't even know each other, then why did Francisco even reach out to him?

Daniel says he doesn't know. But Francisco was obviously aware of him because that night he pulled Daniel aside and asked if they could talk privately in Daniel's car, even asked him to turn off his police radio. Daniel says Francisco told him that Heidi really cared about him, like him being Daniel, and then immediately asked she ever talked about Francisco or said anything about their relationship. And Daniel's like, "No, like I don't remember her mentioning anything." Now, eventually Francisco got out of the car.

Daniel says that he watched him go into the Gatliff's house, which struck him as odd because it was still an active crime scene. And then when he came out, he stood in the driveway and in full view of officers and mourners urinated in the yard.

I'm sorry, what? I know. It's like it's it's just weird behavior. Yeah. Now, Daniel says that he feels awful because he didn't realize how much Heidi was struggling. And he also tells Janice that he thinks Heidi and Francisco were involved in some way. Now, when we recently spoke to Daniel, he said that he didn't realize what was happening at the time. That all the ride alongs and contact Heidi had with Francisco went beyond what he had believed he approved. Like, he'd been running the post for a couple of years and says that he only ever authorized a handful of ridealongs, including one for Heidi. And the way that he tells it, they were tightly controlled for 18 and up explorers only, paired with another student and assigned to a short list of approved officers.

But there was an earlier incident that stuck out. Daniel says that sometime around the spring of 2015, another explorer mentioned that Heidi went on a ride along that he hadn't approved out of uniform and outside of the normal process. As post adviser, Daniel should have filed a report, but he says that it didn't seem like a concern or a complaint, more like a misunderstanding. So, instead of documenting it, he talked to his supervisors, gave the group a refresher on the policy, and pulled the 18 and overs aside to remind them. He wanted all ridealongs to have his approval, and anyone using a police radio had to be logged with dispatch so that the department could know who was where. But he also told us that it felt complicated to him, like Heidi was technically an adult and he didn't think that he could dictate what she did on her own. So maybe out of all this guilt he's feeling or his own grief, whatever,

he says that he's trying to be there for her family and for the explorers. And on November 3rd, again, this is the day after Heidi's death, Daniel brought a counselor in for an emergency explorers meeting. Now, he told us the department didn't help with this. like there wasn't protocol for handling something like traumatic like this, but there was a surprise guest that showed up, Francisco, and it didn't seem like he was there for the counseling. Daniel says that he was like asking around trying to find out more about what had happened. And while the explorers were gathered with Daniel, there was this other group that was meeting at the home of one of Heidi's close friends named Corbin Meyers. He invited their circle over so that they could try to process what happened. And while they were all together, one of the girls got an Instagram message from Francisco who wanted her to call him. And that's when

Corbin's radar started like going off. He knew that there had been some shady stuff happening over the past few months. So Corbin, being in the beautiful one party state of Indiana, decided to record their conversation. And on the call, Francisco repeated much of what he told detectives. But he also talked about his last call with Heidi. He said that she told him her life was a mess and that she'd been hurting people and lying to them. And while he downplayed their relationship to police with her friends, he leaned into it fishing trying to find out what they knew. Corbin actually gave those recordings to police and he also shared them with us.

I don't know how much of of everything you knew about her. Did you know everything?

For the most part, yeah. Okay. Well, what I didn't know about 3 weeks ago since we've been hanging out and stuff and she told we never establish, she never said anything about liking me. She never said anything about that. We're just hanging out. She told me that she was seeing two other guys besides me, like just hanging out with two other guys.

What was your reaction to that? Um, I was pretty upset in the beginning and I told her that we should not probably see each other and she got really upset.

Yeah. And then she told me that she spoke to another guy which Do you know the two names? I don't know if I do you know them.

We know who they are. Yeah. Francisco seemed especially fixated on one of those men.

She told me about him and she said that that it uh that she felt she was hurting him. And I'm not really sure what the relationship was prior to this, but she said she was hurting him.

He said he'd already compared notes with this other guy. according to what she told me is that she was telling him that they she loves him, but unfortunately she never said those things to me except for the day that she called me.

I wish you guys could tell me more. That's what I was hoping that maybe you guys had some answers to help me.

Hang on. So, Francisco admitted there was something going on between them. Well, after they hung up, he called back.

Like, what does she say about me? like she considered what we had in relationship. I heard you guys say that, but I want to know why she thought that.

It wasn't something like a romantic relationship. We never It wasn't like that. We just hung out.

As Francisco started backtracking, Heidi's friends followed his lead. He never said that to you guys that was more than just your friend.

Um, not as far as we know. No. cuz I wanted to know if she ever said that to you because if she ever thought that we were more than just that. And it's not that I would be mad or anything, but she just never ever said anything to me like that. Like, hey, she never even told me she liked me. It was nothing like that. So, and I wish kind of she told you guys is what she felt about me, but I guess not.

Okay. She didn't ever say anything about me like that to you guys. Not that we can not that we are aware of.

No, it's not it's not it's not a big deal. But what the reason I I asked is cuz I'm not really sure why she called me. I spoke to the other guy that she says she's romantically involved with. I actually spoke to him yesterday and we kind of talked and I don't really know what she was telling him and what she was telling me, but I I just wanted to make sure that I wanted to see if that's what she meant when you said relationship if she thought that I was more than

just her friend, like someone she hangs out with. Now, obviously Corbin goes to Heidi's parents with these calls. And by the way, just a side note, I love these kids. Corbin and his friends sounded

better on those calls than some seasoned investigators that I've heard. I know. I will send you the whole call because honestly like these guys are chef's kiss. Like they sound like crime junkies who have been taking notes since birth and they do not come to play. So anyways, Heidi's parents like get these recorded calls. They already have Daniel in their ear talking about Francisco, but they didn't need him to turn them against the guy. between the way he unraveled the day that Heidi died, his whole demeanor, and now Corbin telling them about the calls, like they are sure something is up. So during this time, is Francisco in contact with Mike and Janice? Tries to be at first, but he's not admitting to any inappropriate relationship with Heidi. And actually, while you have Daniel badmouthing Francisco, Francisco is bad mouthing Daniel, telling Janice that the Explorer program should have been shut down, that

under Daniel's leadership, the teens were barely supervised. And someone must have agreed with Francisco on that point at least, because Daniel says that within a couple of weeks of Heidi's death, he was moved to a new role. Officially, on paper, it's a promotion, but to him, it felt like a punishment, even though he was told he could stay involved with the explorers if he wanted to. But regardless of the explorers, he still stays close with Heidi's family, even staying with them for a little bit while he and his wife are going through a divorce. He vacations with them that spring. So, imagine the shock and the betrayal that they feel when they learn who the other guy in Heidi's life really was.

He's another IMPD officer. And not just any officer. It was the man who ran the Explorer program. the man who lived with them and vacationed with them, Daniel Bulman. In January 2016, Daniel's wife filed for divorce. That's when he was staying with Heidi's family. But this was no amicable divorce. In May, he ends up getting arrested on more than a dozen charges tied to domestic abuse against his soon-to-be ex. Some stemming from incidents that happened years earlier. She tells police that he had been violent and controlling, forcing her to bark like a dog, punching her, shoving her into walls, threatening her with his service weapon, even pointing it at their sleeping daughter. And she says it got worse after Heidi died. That Daniel admitted that they had been involved and he just spiraled. She left because she feared what he would do next. So, in the time between Heidi's death in November

and then his arrest in May, dude had been unraveling. He moved to that different position, which again he saw as punishment. Then his wife left him and word was starting to spread around the station that he had a relationship with Heidi, too. Now, according to Daniel, those were just rumors. He says started by Francisco and a couple of other officers. He told Nah that they were the ones who contacted his then wife and planted this idea in her head. He says that he never implied that he and Heidi were involved to his ex or to anyone else. But based on what we know Heidi told friends, they believed that she and Daniel were involved, which again, Daniel denies. He told us he cared about Heidi as a friend and mentor, but insists that nothing between them was romantic or sexual. Okay, but why is a grown man friends with a teenage girl in his program? I mean, she would have been like 16 when they met,

right? which in Indiana 16 is the age of consent, but to be like, who cares? Yeah. Like, still a minor. He's still in a place of authority. Like, I'm sorry.

And he's saying nothing happened. So, like I agree, like he should not be friends with a 16-year-old, especially when, like you're saying, he's in a position of power. But Daniel says that he felt close to all of the older explorers, and he swears that he and Heidi were only alone twice briefly, like as they left meetings. So, why is Heidi telling her friends things to make them believe that he and Heidi are dating?

Daniel told us that he's not sure what gave her that impression. Maybe she misread his goofing around, something he says he did with everyone. But if your goofing around as a supervisory officer gives a minor in your care the impression that she has a relationship with you,

that's like the bigger problem, right? Yeah. Yeah. You're the problem. And I guarantee that the goofing around that's happening is highly inappropriate.

Either way, Daniel basically blames Francisco and the other cops for all of this. He says he documented what was happening and when he learned that one of the initial detectives working Heidi's case might have ties to Francisco, he like sends this memo up the chain. He saw himself as the good guy. And we know that because of text messages that he sent his wife. text that would later become part of the probable cause affidavit for his domestic violence arrest. On April 6th, 2016, he texted her, quote, "I'll be a hero, a whistleblower, fighting police corruption, and if not, I have nothing to lose. You've taken everything I've ever worked for. He took my only friend." End quote. And then on May 9th, 2016, he says, quote, "Right now, I'm only interested in going to there's another cop's name that I'm not going to say, and putting a bullet in their heads. I'm furious. This department failed. This city needs more dead cops."

End quote. Those messages are a big reason that his wife contacted police. Like, his communications were becoming more threatening. And those I got straight from a legal document. But Daniel told us that he didn't write them.

Of course. Of course. Then please, Daniel, who did? He blames his now ex or like someone close to her says that she had access to his iMac and like she could have sent them.

That's his story. Okay. Anyway, after Daniel's arrest, he postponed and goes home on electric monitoring to await trial for the domestic violence charges. And still at this point, nothing had happened with Heidi's case or with Francisco or the Explorer's program because they still have not been able to get into Heidi's phone. It isn't until fall 2017 when new technology becomes available that they can finally crack it. And what they find makes it clear why wouldn't want them to see their communications. It shows just how manipulative he had been and how much they had been in contact. All told, they exchanged over 300 calls in the month and a half, just the month and a half before her death and 177 texts in the final 3 days. Now, I haven't seen most of them. This is a closed case with IMPD, but they're still withholding most of the records, including a lot of the texts. And listen, we've worked with a

lot of agencies over the years. IMPD has consistently been one of the hardest to get records from.

And when I say hardest, I do mean impossible. Which I hate to say about the agency that's in my own backyard.

But I have way better relationships with other agencies. Like why the f does it need to be so hard here? Like what are we hiding something,

right? Like my mind goes to like why not? But of the messages I can see, including some from a probable cause affidavit. Francisco's tone goes from like flirty to furious, he berates her for lying and gaslights her about this other officer and demands to know where they stand. They end up talking three times on the day that she died. And after the last call, he flooded her with messages, texting things like, "You can't do this to me. You can't. and I'm headed to your house right now and you're going to make me look so stupid in front of your family. You make me feel like this is really all my fault.

And the one thing that's more interesting than the texts is the data showing that all of those messages between Francisco and Heidi were deleted around the time that he used her phone to call Daniel. And after the messages were wiped, that is when the phone was locked. So that November, more than 2 years after Heidi's death, Francisco is arrested for felony obstruction of justice and misdemeanor computer trespass. Both him and Daniel are off the force, suspended without pay, facing termination as their cases begin to crawl through the court system. So, I'm kind of getting lost on like what the truth is or was like, was Heidi involved with Daniel or Francisco or both? So, based on everything that we've learned from court records, from everyone we spoke to who had direct knowledge of the situation, it appears that Heidi was involved with both men.

And that kind of dynamic, like one teen, multiple officers, is sadly not unusual. I mean, it it really underscores how predatory some of the adults in these programs can be.

And did police find any texts between Heidi and Daniel when they got into her phone?

So, here's what's interesting. I don't know where they find them. His phone, her phone, whatever. But I know that they find texts. However, they don't actually charge him with anything related to Heidi. And those texts never make it into any record that we have access to

and IMPD won't share records, right? So in August of 2018, that is when Daniel goes to trial for his domestic violence charges. Now he gets found guilty on eight of the 13 counts, but that's all involving his then wife, not Heidi.

So the only way I know that there were messages between him and Heidi that seem suspicious is because of what happens next. So, in February of 2019, he gets deposed for Francisco's case, and the prosecutor presses him on Heidi, reading their text aloud and basically saying that she thinks he's lying about the nature of their relationship. But his attorney jumps in and shuts it down, arguing that it could expose him to new charges and that that is not relevant to Francisco's case.

Okay. if those texts could open him up to new charges. Mhm. And the prosecutor has those texts.

Mhm. I hate to ask this question, but what are we doing here? Dude, I don't know. I like I I don't cuz I don't know what's in them.

I mean, maybe they knew they could only prove the DB charges and figured he'd get like a long enough sentence for those that they wouldn't have to worry. Okay.

Yeah. No, about that. So, according to Indianapolis Star reporter Mark Alicia, at Daniel's sentencing, the judge says that she thinks he has a dark side, but also says that his police background makes prison more dangerous for him. So, the judge considered it an extenduating circumstance, but still sentences him to 8 years plus 4 years probation. That's something at least.

Mhm. But hang on. He wasn't in prison long before his lawyer asked for home detention, arguing that he wasn't safe behind bars. I guess the defense did some research, found out that the judge had the option to offer home detention and that Daniel basically they're like, "He has a job. He has a house. He has a baby on the way with his new wife. Oh, oh, by the way, he has a new wife. He has older kids who depend on his paycheck."

Prosecutors obviously objected, but a different judge okayed it. And after less than four months, Daniel was released on electronic monitoring. So he finishes the sentence in 2022. And since then, he has rebuilt his image in academia, branding himself as an advocate for justice impacted students, working in a university lab that studies criminal, legal, and social systems. And he's pursuing a PhD. To this day, Daniel insists that the judge got it wrong. He denies everything, the abuse, the text, the threats, any inappropriate relationship with Heidi. I mean, people don't usually get parrolled without admitting guilt. And and Daniel clearly hasn't. So, I know it's not quite parole, but like why did he get to sit at home through all that?

Dude, I wish I knew. The Marian County Prosecutor's Office told us that the lenient outcome was unusual, and they don't seem to know why he got it.

And what happened to Francisco? So, in 2022, Francisco pleaded guilty to a reduced misdemeanor obstruction of justice. He gets a year of probation, 240 hours of community service, and is ordered to submit weekly journal entries to the court. Wait, just hold on. There are no police officers in trouble for having a relationship with a minor in the police explorer program. Well, since we couldn't get records from IMPD, I don't know if they even explored that angle. Heidi was a minor when she entered the program, but she was 18 when she died, and the only texts that we've seen are from when she was 18.

So, what are we supposed to take that to mean? Like, IMPD is just cool with allegations of officers grooming minors till they turn 18, right? Like,

like they're cool with the power dynamic of an officer having a relationship with someone in their program as long as they're 18. I mean, there were at least internal affairs investigations in the Sandra Birmore case. Like, that's something. Well, I mean, remember IMPD did add a policy this year, 2025. Heidi 2015, 10 years later, they added a policy this year saying they weren't cool with it.

Oh, good. But what is maddening to me is that more than a decade after Heidi's death, so much is still unclear. What did IMPD know and when?

Right. It's obvious that someone in leadership saw something, at least with Francisco, because Janice told us that apparently in the spring of 2015, so this is months before Heidi died, a highranking official pulled her aside and said that they were concerned Heidi was riding with the same male officer a little too often. He suggested that she like, you know, maybe mix it up, ride with some different officers. Now, Janice doesn't remember if he named Francisco specifically, but she knew that's who he meant since Heidi often did ride alongs with him. So, she and Mike told Heidi, "Switch it up." They assumed she did. So, they were worried enough to tell her mom, but not to actually do anything themselves. We don't know what they did,

right? Meanwhile, despite what Daniel told us, that he was in the dark about Heidi's frequently tagging along with Francisco on patrol after she died, he told her mom that everyone knew that they were going on too many ride alongs. Mike and Janice still don't feel like they got the full story, and they feel betrayed knowing that two men who were supposed to protect Heidi failed her. And those guys walked away with barely any consequences. Now, our team has spent the better part of a year trying to find out more. We filed multiple requests with IMPD, and we got back a few records and like vague assurances that they're working on getting us more.

And at the same time, they claim that they're withholding some under an investigatory exemption, but they haven't said what or why considering both criminal cases are closed,

right? And they also declined an interview saying that the answers are, wait for it, in the records. the records that they won't give us the ones. Okay. So, we're just like in this little circle.

Yeah. Now, we couldn't reach Francisco and neither he nor Daniel has ever publicly admitted to anything beyond a friendship with Heidi. But the general feeling from people we spoke to, family, friends, people in the mix, is that both crossed a line and they put Heidi in the middle, pressuring her to choose between them. And that toxic triangle dynamic isn't just our interpretation either. We spoke to John Moore who is a former sergeant with the special investigations unit at IMPD. He worked the case against Daniel. He told us that investigators broader takeaway was that Heidi was in an inappropriate relationship involving both men and that they both groomed her using their authority and access as officers to build her trust and blur the boundaries. Court files have some details but not enough to show how closely investigators looked at either of them. We don't know how seriously they checked out Daniel's relationship

with Heidi or how deeply they dug into Francisco beyond the obstruction case. Between the delays and the denials and the no comments, IMPD has made it nearly impossible to understand what really happened. And instead of answers, we got stonewalled. We don't even know how IMPD supervised the Explorer post. But if Daniel's account is accurate, he ran it mostly on his own. There were about 30 teens on the roster, maybe 10 regulars, and he was the only sworn officer directly involved. There was a sergeant who offered light oversight and a few adult volunteers that helped out, including former explorers. And when Daniel took over, he was a patrol officer with zero youth experience. He basically says that he was handed the post with a here you go and no manual, just learning for life handouts and IMPD's general orders, which he kind of cobbled together into a rule book. And by the way, just as a reminder, Learning

for Life is the organization that most explorer programs in the country run through.

And as I mentioned, Learning for Life is an affiliate of Scouting America. Yeah. Aka the Boy Scouts. I don't know if you've ever heard of any abuse problems with them,

but quick download. In 2020, the Boy Scouts filed for bankruptcy after being hit with over, wait for it, 82,000 sexual abuse claims. One of the largest abuse scandals in US history. The organization had known about the abuse for decades, keeping internal records commonly known as the perversion files, but often failing to report abusers to authorities. So, all that to say, I bet you would be surprised to know that in 2015, Learning for Life still had no guidance on adult communication with teens outside of meetings, no policy on texting. Now, that same year, the Boy Scouts adopted a digital version of what they call too deep leadership, meaning that no one-on-one contact between like adults and minors, including through texting, DMs, or gaming. But Learning for Life has its own handbook, and the digital contact rule wasn't included that year, and we couldn't find it in there until 2017. So, to me, this isn't

just an Indianapolis problem. These programs seem to be built in a way that makes them prime for grooming. And the failures we're seeing here are happening in agencies all over the country. And there's no national public database for explorer misconduct. I mean, we know sexual abuse in general is notoriously under reportported,

but there have been reporters and researchers who tried to pin down how widespread this problem is. A recent investigation by Lijra Chavis of the Marshall Project identified at least 217 abuse and misconduct allegations in law enforcement explorer programs going back to the 1970s when girls were first allowed in spanning more than 100 agencies with officers grooming or sexually abusing victims as young as 13 or 14. A 2003 study by criminologists Samuel Walker and Don Earlbe found that nearly half of all reported cases of officer sexual misconduct with teenagers happen in explorer posts. So even though these programs are just one way that cops interact with teens, they account for a disproportionate share of the known abuse. And while girls are more often targeted, boys and young men have been victimized, too. Now supporters of the programs point out that these cases are rare. a small fraction of the tens

of thousands of teens who have participated since 1959 when a California sheriff's department started the very first post. And listen, for sure, when operated properly, explore programs can offer real value.

Participants, usually 14 to 20, get early exposure to police work while building leadership, discipline, confidence, a sense of belonging. Agencies get a recruitment pipeline, a way to connect with the community. It should be a win-win, right? So, how do we get the good without putting children at risk? The answer is oversight. For post underlearning for life, the organization is supposed to set and enforce protection rules with a five-point safety plan. Screen out abusers, educate youth, parents, and volunteers about warning signs, set boundaries, encourage reporting, remove offenders.

In practice, every safeguard lives or dies at the local level. And as then freelance journalist Jonathan Kaminsky found, historically, Learning for Life has mostly left agencies to police themselves. And inside that shaky setup is a glaring vulnerability, ridealongs. The program's most popular feature and its riskiest. California based attorney Anthony DeMarco, who has spent years litigating explore abuse cases, told us that ridealongs are a perfect setup for exploitation. hours alone with a powerful adult with no one else able to see or hear what's happening and almost no real oversight from the department.

But doesn't that too deep leadership rule apply? Everywhere except ride alongs, at least they were the exception until just this past June when Learning for Life finally started requiring two adults in the car if the Explorer is under 18. Before that, the loophole was wide open. And the Marshall Project concluded that ridealongs factored into about a quarter of abuse cases. But ride-alongs are only part of it. These programs are a perfect storm because they stack all these risk factors together. Officers get access to teens.

Oversight is often thin. And the kids want to be there. They're ambitious. They want to impress. A lot of them see this as their future. And the structure can make it hard to tell where normal training ends and something sketchy begins. So when an officer singles them out with extra attention,

it can feel important. It's their big break instead of feeling like a red flag. That's how grooming usually starts here. Not with threats, but with connection. An officer becomes a confidant, builds trust, maybe gets close to the family. And that's just as true when the teen is legally an adult like Heidi. A birthday does not erase the power imbalance.

And from there, things can escalate, right? It's a ride home, a private hangout, late night messages. By the time that it's clearly sexual or coercive, the team might actually feel like they went along with it or that speaking up would ruin everything, their reputation, their shot at the job, their future. Anthony says that there is often this unspoken deal. Stay quiet and the doors stay open. speak up and it slams shut. And victims might also be afraid. By the way,

they're cops. These are cops. Yes, they carry weapons. They can arrest you. A lot of victims worry that they'll be targeted or that no one is going to believe them. So many of them never even tell. Some of them come forward years later, and even when they do, there's no guarantee that they're going to get justice. And this isn't just a stat. So, I did a bit of a call out about the explore program if you remember in our episode on Peggy Hetress. And not too long ago, I posted a Tik Tok asking people to share their stories with me if they were in the program. Didn't say what kind of stories, just left it open. And the number of messages I got from people was wild. So many of them had stories from their past where either they had friends that were in intimate relationships with officers or they themselves were groomed. and tons of them still didn't want to come forward even now.

So, the problem is so much bigger than we think it is. But there were some people who decided to share their story in hopes that it could save even one more young person from abuse. And one of those people was a 43-year-old woman who I'll call Kate. Daniel Craig returns as Benois Blanc with an all-star ensemble cast for his most dangerous case yet. When young priest Judently is sent to assist charismatic firebrand monsor Jefferson Wixs, it's clear that all is not well in the pews. Written and directed by Ryan Johnson, critics are calling it the sharpest knives out movie yet. Watch Wake Up Dead Man, a knives out mystery in select theaters on November 26th and only on Netflix December 12th.

In 1998, then 15-year-old Kate joined the Bosowin Police Explorer program in New Hampshire. She'd grown up admiring a DARE officer and knew that she wanted to be a cop. The post seemed like the perfect first step. A small group of teens led by Officer John Laros, who was in his late 20s. And John's mom had been a teacher of Kate, so he like already felt safe and he knew how badly she wanted this career. and he knew that she was vulnerable. As a pre-teen, she'd questioned her sexuality. Her parents eventually came around, but for a while, they restricted what she could do. She felt really cut off, and Jon acted like the one adult who accepted her no matter what. As the Explore adviser, he controlled everything. The program included regular ride alongs, sometimes overnight shifts, and Kate was often paired with him. And her parents were fine with it. They trusted him and supported her goals. But it didn't take

long for him to start just like pushing boundaries. Within months, she said that he was steering conversations toward sex, making crude jokes, asking her about her experiences, and oversharing his own, including that he cheated on his wife. Now, at first, Kate didn't see it as wrong. It felt like he was treating her like an equal. She actually felt special. But sometime around early 2000, Kate says that he assaulted her. It happened in this dark secluded lot near the county jail. This like boat launch that he routinely checked while on patrol. And she tells us that one night he drove there, made a comment about people having sex there, and then told her to get out of the car and perform oral sex on him. And she said she didn't feel like she had a choice.

She was a teenage girl alone with an armed officer, afraid of his reaction, afraid of ruining her future, so she complied. Kate told us that there were more assaults in the months that followed, all while he was on duty. At one point, she says that John even showed her a news article about another cop getting arrested for assaulting an explorer. He then pulled out the New Hampshire criminal code and read her the exact statute, the one that described what he was doing as felonious sexual assault. Like Kate didn't want to anger him, so she like tried to reassure him like she was over 16, the age of consent in New Hampshire. But he corrected her if the adult is in a position of authority, the law is actually 18. So he absolutely knew what he was doing and he made sure Kate knew too. And after that, she changed. She became this shadow of the fun-loving kid that her friends knew. She tried to tell another explorer

what was happening, but instead of support, she got shamed. So, she stayed in the post for a couple more years. It did open doors for her, like she graduated high school early. She got into a criminal justice program, even landed a civilian job with another police department. But the trauma followed her. She was convinced that she led him on, that she didn't deserve happiness, and eventually she gave up her dream of becoming a cop. Now, years passed. Kate got married. And in 2013, she had a daughter. And there was something about becoming a parent that made her finally see things differently.

And she knew that she'd want someone to be held accountable if they did this to her child. So in September of 2014, after a lot of soulsearching, she actually reported John. He was long gone from Bosowin by then. He was actually chief of police in nearby Canterbury at that time.

Right. But since he and the Bosowin chief had worked together, the case was handed over to the New Hampshire Attorney General's office. Investigators asked Kate to wear a wire and confront him. And listen, she hadn't seen him in ages. And the prospect of this was like overwhelming. But she agreed and she goes to meet him at the Canterbury station. And on tape, they have this guy admitting to the sexual activity, even apologizing, though he was like insisting it was consensual. And later when investigators confronted him again, he repeated the confession. And according to WUR's Heather Hamill, he even said that he thought it was quote fun to flirt with a 16-year-old under his control. What? In August 2015, John was arrested for aggravated felonious sexual assault and placed on unpaid leave. And news coverage shows that he was indicted on a slew of felony and misdemeanor sexual assault charges a

couple of months later. Then he resigned the following January. By summer of 2016, the case went to trial. He actually took the stand where again he admits to the sexual encounters with Kate, but is still claiming they were consensual. How can he call it consensual when the law literally says it wasn't? And also, he pointed out that law.

Literally, that's what prosecutors argued that like the whole thing was grooming and coercion. They brought in an expert on trauma and pressed him on his changing stories. But Jon's defense painted him as like this like bumbling and harmless guy and suggested that Kate had financial motive to go after him. Two former explorers testified that she had quote bragged about the relationship. And so after 7 days of testimony, the jury deliberated for just 2 hours and they found him not guilty on all charges. I know.

In In what world was he not in a position of authority? It's baffling. I This is unreal.

According to Kate, prosecutors later asked jurors what shaped their decision. And you know, they said they just couldn't picture Jon being a violent guy, and they questioned why she would stay in the program. Some people thought she cried too much. Some people thought she didn't cry enough or that she seemed just too strong. So it it didn't matter what she did or was going to do, it was the wrong reaction. She was never going to make herself the perfect victim for them,

which is like what we see all the time, right? Like survivors are held to impossible standards.

They're expected to fit this narrow script. Like be composed, but not too composed. Remember every detail, even though trauma distorts memory, and if they don't match what people think a real victim quote unquote looks like, they're not believed. Kate was crushed. Mhm.

The attorney general's office encouraged her to file a civil suit. Like some survivors pursue that even when criminal charges don't stick, but she just couldn't stomach another courtroom. Like the public backlash was already intense and she worried that suing would make people dismiss her story, like think it was just about money, so she decided against it. The upside is that John Lash is no longer a cop. And after he was suspended, locals raised broader concerns about Canterbury PD. So, the sheriff's office reviewed the department and they actually found over a decade of mismanagement and dysfunction under his leadership. Now, we reached out to John via text, he told us that there was nothing to discuss since he was found not guilty. And when we noted that he still admitted to sexual contact with a minor explorer and asked if he had anything to say now, nearly a decade later, he said that he'd already

answered for it at trial and told us to lose his number. No one at Bosow PD today was around during J's time or the Explorer era, but the chief told us that the program was shut down long before Jon's arrest and that no other complaints were ever reported. Speaking out even now still feels risky to Kate emotionally and legally. Like, we're using a pseudonym, but that's not going to hide her identity from him or the community. But she decided it was worth it. Silence hadn't protected her. it only protected him and she wants people to know what happened. And she hopes that her story helps someone else get justice even though she didn't. And Kate's not alone in that hope or even that outcome. For many survivors, justice stays just out of reach. The Marshall Project found that only about half of the Explorer related cases that they tracked led to any time behind bars. Big reason is because of plea

deals. charges just get like reduced to misdemeanors or to nonsex offenses. Beyond Explorer Post, a Washington Post investigation found that nearly 40% of officers convicted of sex crimes involving children from 2005 to 2022 never served a day in prison.

And when there is punishment, there is no real standard of what that is. Charges fall under this like mix of state and federal laws, statutory rape, abuse of power, civil rights violations. Prosecutors don't always use the same playbook, even when the behavior looks similar. And so, sentencing is all over the place.

Inside agencies, discipline is just as inconsistent. Some officers are fired, some resign, others stay on the job with reprimand or short suspension, or sometimes nothing at all. And that's what happened in Jennifer's case. In the late8s, Jennifer joined the Contraosta County Sheriff's Explorer program in California after hearing about it at school. She was 15 and already set on a career in law enforcement. And this post was smaller, like fewer than 10 teens and run entirely by one deputy who we're going to call Bill. Bill, who was in his mid to late30s, started inviting Jennifer on overnight ride alongs a couple of times a week. Her parents are fine with it. She was with a cop. Like, what could be safer? And over the next couple of years, he slowly introduced her to inappropriate behavior. things like telling her how beautiful that she was going to be when she grew up. She trusted him, believed what he said, and

valued his opinion. She idolized this man. So, when one night he turned around in the patrol car and kissed her, she was stunned, but also flattered. A month later, he took her to his house while his wife was away and pressured her to have sex. Now, she said no, and he stopped that time. Now, soon after her family moved to Florida and before leaving, she confided in another explorer. Not as like a cry for help like Kate, more like she was mourning the end of something that she thought was real. Like in her mind, what they had had been a relationship. That explorer told the sheriff's office, and to their credit, they opened an investigation, but by then, Jennifer was across the country. So, everything was happening over the phone with her, but only with her. What do you mean only her? They didn't talk to her parents.

Mm-m. They had no idea that that even though she was still a minor. Yeah. It's wild. And like in that moment, since Jennifer was like so embarrassed, she minimized it, but she did at least confirm that they kissed and that the relationship was inappropriate. The sheriff's office didn't respond to our interview request. But as far as we know, the investigation went nowhere. Bill didn't lose his badge. Records show that he did step down as explorer adviser in 1991, but he stayed on the job for nearly two more decades. Jennifer joined another explorer post in Florida. This one larger and more structured, but the same problems persisted. She remembers the comments like the lingering attention from male cops of all ages. At the time, when she's young, it didn't feel predatory. It felt like being noticed.

She went through the academy, worked as a dispatcher, and became a reserve officer. But the steady boundary pushing wore her down. And eventually she realized these are not superheroes. They are just human men in uniforms. Some good, some not. So when she got pregnant, she left the field. Last year, while flipping through an old photo album, Jennifer decided that she actually wanted to confront Bill. But that's when she found out that he died. So there would be no reckoning, no chance to look him in the eye and tell him what he'd done to her. And she carried shame for years, blaming herself. And only later did she understand how vulnerable teens are and how men like Bill take advantage of that. Heidi, Kate, Jennifer, and so many others, they did what adults told them to do. They trusted the people in charge, and so did their parents. I mean, go back to Heidi. Take Mike and Janice Gatliff. They were so involved.

It's not like they just dropped Heidi off and hoped for the best. Mike went to her first meeting. They showed up to events, but they were also trusting the system and thought that Heidi was surrounded by honorable cops worthy of their powerful positions. You know, they still believe the law enforcement explorer programs can work if there's real oversight and accountability. But they don't think Heidi got that. And they have to live with the ache of knowing that they'll never see her huge smile or hear her contagious laugh again. She'll never wear the badge that she worked so hard for, pouring nearly 2,000 hours into the explorers. So, what they hold on to now is their faith and their memories. The way that Heidi could turn everything into a joke. The moment that she made a quiet child in Haiti smile during a missions trip just by refusing to give up. They know that Heidi changed lives simply by being who

she was. and her compassion and her drive and her goofy sense of humor all came from one place, a heart that was wired to show up for others. So, in all of this, I I have to ask, does IMPD still have its program? When detective Christine Manina took over after Daniel Bowman, she told us that it was basically a free-for-all. Like, teens tried to outrank her and like boss her around. So,

so back then she came in, she set new rules, tightened boundaries. Some of the kids left, most of them stayed and she ran the program for like 5 years before she retired. And to answer your question, no, they don't have an explore program now. They have something called junior cadetses, but as of late October, IMPD told us no one was enrolled in that. So whether that's a fresh start or just a rebrand remains to be seen because a new name doesn't mean new safeguards. And those safeguards are what's necessary because this isn't just about a few bad apples. This is, I keep saying it, about a system that allowed them to operate, policies that left massive gaps, higher-ups that looked the other way or downplayed allegations, and a culture that protected the institution first and the kids last. And girl, this isn't even a new problem. Like, f the stats. This has been a systemic issue for decades. Like, I don't know if you

knew this, but in the 70s, the Los Angeles Police Department found itself under investigation after some officers were discovered taking overnight camping trips with teenage girls from the department's all female explorer post. And one of the girls described these camping trips as quote, "Little more than orgies." According to reporting, it had been happening for like a couple of years before an explorer finally sounded the alarm. In that case, some officers were charged, but news coverage shows that most of the cases just collapsed.

Prosecutors cited a lack of evidence and victim cooperation. In some cases, they say they couldn't prove that the officers knew that the girls were underage. I guess it was too much detective work for them to like figure out that the girls in a youth program were youths. Yeah.

And department discipline was also weak. like a few resigned, a few were suspended, one was fired, one got a disability pension for injuries and emotional stress, others were cleared, and then like by the late 70s, the whole thing just like fizzled out in the media. According to Jonathan Kaminsky's reporting, it had been happening for a couple of years before the Explorer sounded the alarm. It doesn't have to be this way. Some groups are doing it right, like the Duchess County Sheriff's Office Law Enforcement Youth Cadet Program in New York. Their adviser, Sergeant Alonzo Montana, has built guardrails into every part of it.

Communication runs through tracked group platforms. Parents are looped in early and often, and historically, they haven't even allowed ridealongs at all. When Nina spoke with Sergeant Montana earlier this year, they were just starting to phase them in with very strict rules. And we spoke to a woman named Don Bolley in Wisconsin. She says that she joined her local Explorer Post in the early 1980s when she was a freshman in high school. She learned skills like conflict resolution, emergency response, even firearms training. She loved her program leaders and says that they changed her life and the lives of others in the program. For Dawn, it wasn't just a resume builder.

It was formative. It showed her how to stay calm under pressure and that being a cop wasn't the path for her at all.

So, it's not the explorers that need to stop. Yes. As usual, it's just the abuse. But any meaningful change has to start with the agencies running these programs. They're the ones with the power and the obligation to enforce the rules,

the responsibility. Yeah. And my god, be thoughtful about who you put in charge. Don't just grab whoever's free and hand them a group of teenagers. I mean, like, right now, the qualifications are pretty minimal. Adviserss have to be at least 21, pass a background check and get agency approval and then be signed off by the local exploring council.

And do they go through any like serious safety training? Not really. So beyond the background check, the like training they have to do is pretty much just online webinars. And actually Nina when she was doing all the reporting on this, she took them and earned the same safety certification that advisers get while sitting on her couch in one night.

Salute to Nina. Salute to Nina. Now, the recent ride along policy change by Learning for Life, which by the way never responded to our interview requests, is a step in the right direction, but rules on paper are the easy part.

We still don't know how or how often that policy is enforced or what actually happens to agencies that ignore it. That attorney I mentioned, Anthony DeMarco, sees the problem as systemic. Officers are given unsupervised access to minors, then protected by a culture and union contracts that often shield them from serious consequences, even when there is misconduct. His view is don't just slap a band-aid on the problem. Make it as transparent and accountable from the ground up starting with ride alongs. So, what can we do?

Right here you go. I love to leave you with a good takeaway. So, if you're a parent, an agency, or a teenager in the program, I got you covered. So, agencies define inappropriate conduct clearly, things like shoulder rubs or oversharing, and act early with serious discipline or termination before it escalates. Make ride along assignments random so officers can't quietly handpick the same teens over and over. Use tech like interior audio and video in patrol cars, GPS tracking, maybe even like an Uber style recording that kicks in for every ride. The thing is like Anthony thinks that there would be a lot of push back on that idea from cops and explorers.

Okay, but like who cares? Like in my mind if it protects even one kid, it's worth the discomfort. Now parents, if your child wants to join an explorer cadet program,

do not assume uniforms mean it's safe. Treat it the way you would a new school or a daycare when your kids were little. Ask who runs the post, what are the rules, how are ride alongs tracked, what's the policy on texting and social media, how are complaints handled. Stay involved. Show up. Talk to adviserss. Connect with other parents. The more visible you are, the easier it is for your kid to speak up if something feels off. And keep the conversation going at home. Talk about boundaries. Make sure your kid knows that they can come to you. If an adult, even if it's someone in uniform,

especially someone in uniform, if they make them uncomfortable, remind them that abuse is never their fault. And if they disclose it, go straight to the authorities. If local law enforcement shrugs it off or you're concerned about a conflict of interest, go above them to state or federal agencies. And for my youths listening, explorers or no explorers, you guys are faced with crazy all the time. I wanted to be 20 when I was eight and I was like dying for someone to look at me like I was older and mature. And some people will do that with respect. They're going to give you responsibility and the room to come into your own. But others are going to try and take advantage. I didn't know what the signs were when I was young. So, let me talk to you like the grown-up you are. You are not an idiot. So if you feel like a line is being crossed, you get that like tingling in your spine or that jelly in

your belly, you know something is off, you do not have to justify it. You don't have to excuse it away. It's not your responsibility to make adults feel comfortable. And you do not have to protect them from their own actions. And if you realize it too late, no, you didn't. It is never too late to draw the line and stop unwanted behavior. And it is never your fault. Doesn't matter if it's a cop or your pastor or a teacher or a coach. Whether it's an Explorer program or somewhere else, you don't owe anyone your time, attention, or access.

If an officer asks to meet alone or sends flirty, secretive messages or just gives you a bad feeling, tell someone you trust. And if something already happened, you are not to blame. Even if you didn't or couldn't say no in the moment, even if it felt like something you agreed to, power dynamics can twist what feels like a choice. And you deserve support no matter what. So, crime junkies, if any part of this episode hit home. If you know someone who's been affected by abuse in any youth setting or you just want those spaces to be safer, talk about this.

Share this episode. We can do better. We have to for Heidi and Kate and Jennifer and for the next teenager who walks into an Explorer post with the dreams of one day wearing a badge. If you or someone you know is struggling or has experienced abuse, help is available. We're going to link resources in our show notes, including hotlines for sexual assault, child abuse, domestic violence, and suicide prevention. Please reach out if you need to or share them with someone who might. As always, you can find all the source material for this episode on our website, crimejunkie.com.

And if you want to listen to more episodes like this and all of our episodes, completely adfree, be sure to join our fan club. You'll also get early access to new episodes every week and bonus content every month.

And you can follow us on Instagram, CrimeJunky Podcast. We'll see you next episode.

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "Could Joining a Police Explorer Program Put Your Child in Danger?"?

Ashley Flowers (Host), Brit (Guest), Mike Gatliff (Guest), Francisco (Paco) (Guest), Daniel Bowman (Guest), Nina (Guest).

What is "Could Joining a Police Explorer Program Put Your Child in Danger?" about?

The discussion centers around the troubling realities of the Police Explorer program, highlighting systemic issues that have allowed abuse within the organization to persist. Through investigative stories, including the case of Sandra Burmore and other troubling incidents, the narrative reveals a pattern of exploitation that raises serious concerns about the safety of children involved in such…

What is mentioned in this Crime Junkie episode?

21 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Francisco (full name unknown), Daniel Bowman, IMPD Explorer program, Heidi Gatliff, Indianapolis Metropolitan Police Department, Mike Gatliff. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "Could Joining a Police Explorer Program Put Your Child in Danger?"?

The episode runs 1 h 11 min; the transcript is about 12,439 words in 145 timestamped sections.

More from Crime Junkie

About this transcript: the episode's spoken words as captioned on YouTube, split into timestamped sections. Reclip.Me locates every person, work and idea in the text, keeps the time it is first named, and quotes the words around it verbatim. Last updated January 24, 2026.