HH addendum EP4 Exposing the Hart of The Great War

What this episode is about

The discussion centers on the work of Peter Hart, an expert in World War I history, who excels at intertwining emotional personal narratives with broader historical events. By highlighting poignant documents and quotes, Hart adds depth to the storytelling, illustrating how high-level military decisions impact the lives of individual soldiers, thereby enriching our understanding of the war's human experience.

Key takeaways

• Historical narratives often overlook the raw human experience; Peter Hart masterfully intertwines personal stories with grand military strategies.
• The First World War's image has transformed from a black-and-white moral battlefield to a complex human ordeal over generations.
• Exploring the dichotomy between generals' decisions and soldiers' suffering reveals the haunting layers of warfare's realities.
• In the quest for historical accuracy, emotional 'nuggets' can sometimes resonate more than cold facts—thanks, Peter Hart!
• Public perception of war evolves, and as Hart suggests, the narrative shifts from clear good vs. evil to nuanced realities.

Who speaks in this episode?

• Dan Carlin (Host) · 34 min speaking
• Peter Hart (Guest) · 23 min speaking

What is discussed, and when

1. 0:00 – 5:00: Peter Hart, First World War, Blueprint for Armageddon, Audible
2. 5:00 – 10:00: First World War, The Second World War, Barbara Tuchman
3. 10:00 – 15:00: First World War, The Second World War
4. 15:00 – 20:00: First World War, The Second World War, Argonne
5. 20:00 – 25:00: The Second World War, First World War
6. 25:00 – 30:00: Argonne, First World War, The Second World War
7. 30:00 – 35:00: First World War, The Second World War
8. 40:00 – 45:00: First World War, Passchendaele
9. 45:00 – 50:00: The Second World War, First World War, Peter Hart, Blueprint for Armageddon
10. 50:00 – 55:00: Audible, Peter Hart
11. 55:00 – 57:11: Peter Hart, Audible

Notable quotes from "HH addendum EP4 Exposing the Hart of The Great War"

• Poor guy mortally wounded in a shell writing his last letter back to his wife and family it's an art and I think Peter Hart does it as well or better especially on the subject…

  about Peter Hart · at 2:10

• Glitches did not make easy to understand and also read a letter that we referenced in the story - something that Peter Hart uncovered for one of his books that we used in the…

  about Blueprint for Armageddon · at 3:42

• Man but not quite to Hitler standards and then since I've grown up that good evil aspect to the First World War has seemed to be to fade over time quite a bit at least here in…

  about First World War · at 5:50

• Of that and it might be part of the historiography or what have you part of the myth making but when I read stuff in the Second World War I find a lot less of that than in the…

  about The Second World War · at 12:59

• And that I think you don't learn this until you get right into the end of the war because the Americans don't really get into the war until September about September 26 that's…

  about Argonne · at 25:36

• Jutland in 1916 follows the same pattern with his context punctuated by oral historian quotes it works so well he wrote one on Passchendaele which is you know as you know…

  about Passchendaele · at 43:36

• That audiobooks fill a void and audibles the best place to get them and if you sign up today you can get a free audiobook with a 30-day trial membership go to audible.com…

  about Audible · at 55:37

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

• Peter Hart — Person · Main guest · 12 mentions · first at 1:17
  Primary interview subject; a First World War specialist whose archival/oral-history work and books are repeatedly referenced and recommended.
• Barbara Tuchman — Person · Referenced historian / author · 1 mention · first at 6:05
  Mentioned as an example of earlier WWI historiography and tone (e.g., perceived harshness toward Germany) contrasted with more nuanced modern accounts.
  Have you noticed can you comment a little bit on the differences in the way you know Barbara Tuchman writes a book years ago that the Jack Kennedy reads that's really…

Books & papers

• Blueprint for Armageddon — Book · Referenced work · 3 mentions · first at 0:43
  Series by Dan Carlin on the First World War, mentioned as using Peter Hart's materials.
• Passchendaele — Book · Referenced work · 1 mention · first at 43:46
  Book by Peter Hart on the Battle of Passchendaele, mentioned as part of his works on the First World War.

Companies & orgs

• British Imperial War Museum — Company · Affiliation · 1 mention · first at 2:40
  Peter Hart's workplace, mentioned as a source of historical materials and his role as an oral historian.
  Know by-product the best aspect of this gig the chance to talk to people whose work you admire people like Peter Hart who is amongst other things an oral historian by the way…

Concepts & topics

• First World War — Concept · Core topic · 20 mentions · first at 1:34
  Central theme of the episode, discussing the historical significance and impact of the First World War.
• The Second World War — Concept · Referenced topic · 11 mentions · first at 5:43
  Discussed in comparison to the First World War, highlighting differences in warfare and public perception.

Places & events

• Argonne — Place · Setting · 3 mentions · first at 19:55
  Mentioned as a significant battlefield in the First World War, particularly for American forces.

Sponsors

• Audible — Company · Sponsor · 7 mentions · first at 0:00
  Sponsor of the podcast, offering audiobooks and mentioned in the promotional segment.

Full transcript with timestamps

0:00 today she was sponsored by audible all is offering our listeners a free audiobook with a 30-day trial membership just go to audible.com forward slash Carlin and browse the unmatched selection of audio programs download a title free and start listening it's that easy go to audible.com slash Carlin or text Carlin - 500 - 500 and get started today it's hardcore history attendant I said before that one of the wonderful side benefits of a gig like this is the chance to speak to people whose work you really admire and talk to them about it in this case I have a guest on the program today who is a source somebody that we use in our work and when we did blueprint for Armageddon he was sort of my um you know go-to guy in terms of somebody that I knew could add a different dimension to the storytelling by having a letter or a document or a quote or something that was just you know so visceral or perfect or emotional

1:07 or that in one short little paragraph managed to capture such a poignant you know point that just sort of made the whole you know section of the piece I mean Peter Hart's work is finding emotional nuggets that just knock you over and then incorporating them into the story in a way where they not only have the most impact but they managed to add a part of the story that often gets missed if you're telling for example a story on the first world war which is Peter Hart's specialty it is so easy to get yourself locked into the giant troop movements and the big decisions made at headquarters and all this sometimes you can go the total opposite extreme and it's easy to get caught up in the diary of this one soldier or this one nurse or something like that but to be able to blend the two in a way that helps you understand for example how the decisions made at headquarters with all those high and muckety-mucks thinking about things

2:05 abstractly how they you know influence and intersect with the lives of some poor guy mortally wounded in a shell writing his last letter back to his wife and family it's an art and I think Peter Hart does it as well or better especially on the subject of the First World War than anyone I've ever read so you get to see me enjoying my you know by-product the best aspect of this gig the chance to talk to people whose work you admire people like Peter Hart who is amongst other things an oral historian by the way at the British Imperial War Museum which is every military history nuts dream gig I love to go to work buy a couple of giant 15-inch naval guns which one of those you know they have several of these war museums but the the main one in London has the big naval guns outside you know just take a picture here's where I work right eat your heart out anyway one little note normally we have an in-house

3:04 phone system we use when we do interviews but normally we only use that for North American interviews when we're overseas calls we've been using sort of an internet system and this time it led us down with some pretty serious glitches at times especially near the end of the interview not only my apologies to Peter Hart but to you also it's frustrating and there was no way for us to fix it so I am going to put a couple of shall we call them endnotes after the interview where I both quote something that we we referenced in the show so that we include that explain something mr. Hart said at the end that the digital glitches did not make easy to understand and also read a letter that we referenced in the story - something that Peter Hart uncovered for one of his books that we used in the blueprint for Armageddon series and reread that to just show you the man's ability to demonstrate the ripples of pain that's

4:04 something like this conflict you know created in that era in those societies and drop you right into the middle of it for a minute so without further ado the wonderful author and or a war historian maybe a good way to put it the great Peter Hart so the first thing I want to know because I'm just curious as a person who is absolutely jealous of anyone who can find such a specialty to devote their lives to um how did it for you mostly become because you've done other things but mostly become something about the First World War what grabbed your interest about this and what is it that keeps you so interested in the subject I think I started when I was young and there was a program called the Great War which was on telly in the 1960s and it was gloomy and miserable and it seemed so awful that people suffered so much and for me that it's always been that dichotomy it's a dichotomy between the people who

5:03 suffered and what the generals did and why they did that because you may or may not realize I quite support the approach of the generals and it's the way that you know it's an entirely logical way of behaving but it's terrible for those that are involved and that has always informed or I hope has informed all the work I do it's it's it's it's what it's all about for me now you've been doing it long enough so that you've been around to watch sort of how public perception over time on these events has changed because I remember I was born in 1965 and I remember in the United States growing up as a kid there was a sense about the first world war that it was like the Second World War but a little less in terms of the good and evil still the good and evil the Kaiser was evil man but not quite to Hitler standards and then since I've grown up that good evil aspect to the First World War has seemed to be to fade over time quite a

6:01 bit at least here in the United States have you noticed can you comment a little bit on the differences in the way you know Barbara Tuchman writes a book years ago that the Jack Kennedy reads that's really particularly hard on the Germans the stuff I read today has a very different tone what have you noticed in the change of if we were doing news we would say the coverage over the last say four decades of the First World War I've noticed a fair amount of coverage my perception has always been that in the end if there were baddies then it was the Germans but that there were a lot of people doing things that were were difficult or wrong that there were four or five em empires that were struggling together trying to establish domination a lot of them had agendas that we wouldn't particularly recognize as today as being pleasant or you know they're colonialism things like that that their treatment of

6:57 their colonies that the way they generally behaved you know through it and everything and for me we have now an acceptance it was the Germans pushed the war they were partly did that because they were being pushed by the the the Russians and the French and the French who had their own agendas and it's just become much more complicated the thing is it's not easy is it you know that's that's the problem with history that when you add nuance things stop being good and evil becoming just much more complex now one of the things you do so fantastically we try to do it here too it's a great if you can pull it off it's a great way to do it you pull it off all the time where you're able to take the reader from the macro you know you'll have us in the in the boardroom and you'll have quotes from assistants to the great you know grand strategists who are deciding how to use troops on the battlefield and then all of a sudden

7:53 you'll telescope down to some poor combatant who's injured mortally in some shell hole who's writing a last letter to his wife and kids that he's gonna strap to his body to find later first of all you know explain to the listener a little bit how you go about finding these materials it would seem to me to be one of the luxuries of working in a semi modern era I mean the poor Roman historian has much less in the way of letters from combatants to go on but but you're able to mine emotionally mine this material out there how do you find it and if it's as powerful as it is on the sterile text page as I'm reading it how much more powerful is it for you when you're holding the the actual stained letter in your hands that was in one of my books that I found a letter that was from a French soldier yeah that I used that but I am extremely lucky that I have been for the last 30 odd 35 years the the oral historian at

8:54 the Imperial war museum so i a did all their lot not all at all but i did a lot of the first world war interviews with veterans and that provide him with a fantastic source which the war museum's allowed me to use and secondly i have worked closely with the department of documents there and that just opening that dusty old folders that they're all cataloged and preserved by it by the palace staff but you know you open these and you no idea what you're going to find and sometimes it can be utterly tedious letter after letter or boring you know no no and then suddenly you get someone something it's really this girl that that tears you apart that you know you just get letters that you realize these are the last letters that you know you've been reading this blokes life and suddenly there's suddenly it's not his letter it's a letter from his commanding officer and you know it it's amazing and

9:49 I just think I'm very lucky to work in the War Museum from that I then look through lots of other sources I go to other museums I go to other places and of course I look at personal experience books mainly old ones but like I use quite a few modern ones of the you know or regimental histories often have it buried inside them personal experience accounts you know the Americans I picked up a lot from the internet where their PDFs of their books from 1920's are online and you can consult them it's fabulous and and that's where I get the material and yes it can be you know that the actual real letters that I see at the Museum can be really painful you know obviously humans are humans at Ground Zero but when you're reading and you focus mostly on the British side of the experience but you cover everything do you notice any broad broad differences in say you're reading something from Ground Zero from a French

10:48 soldier or some German soldier on the line versus some British or American soldier are there any differences in terms of the way that their national characteristics sort of come through in the material or at Ground Zero when you're sitting in a trench with artillery falling all around you are we are we broadly the same I very much go for broadly the same uh I think I'm not a great believer in national characteristics I anyway you know it can help sometimes as a shorthand to explain certain things but if you take it too literally it goes into dark alleys what what I really think though is that underneath human beings when they place under real pressure tend to respond in in a similar sort of way and for me a French soldier that the accounts you know sometimes I have to translate which can be difficult I'm not great a friend of mine translated the German ones for me because I don't you know respeaker read

11:43 German and fundamentally they're the same they have slightly different ways of expressing themselves whether that's just cultural but underneath when the shells are falling when their friends are killed when they're given orders that could lead them to be killed they're the same sort of people they are us you know they are they're just ordinary people you know that's maybe one of the things that at least I mean I'm imagined touches many people once they start you know reading about the war is these these incidents where you know that the comradeship maybe the German soldiers would say but were the soldiers of multiple sides who you know more and more modern histories we'll talk about how prisoners would be killed sometimes and all the horrors of war and yet at the same time you know the notions when these people end up having truces where they you know share Christmas decorations or play football

12:36 as you guys would call it soccer we would call it or or any of the many many incidents like that getting stuck in a shell hole with someone from the other side in your latest book that was a primary source quote where a British soldier had his arm really badly injured and goes marching to the back with a bunch of German prisoners who start doctoring his wounds do you notice I mean I don't see as much of that and it might be part of the historiography or what have you part of the myth making but when I read stuff in the Second World War I find a lot less of that than in the First World War anything in on the front of your mind that might account for the difference there or am I just imagining that there is one I don't think you imagined it that's if there is though there was more hatred in the Second World War I think and and we all it's only our opinions from the things we've read and but I inter I've

13:27 interviewed an awful lot of second or more Second World War soldiers and First World War soldiers and there is more hatred there because of the nature of the regime they're fighting now the communist regime was Russia was pretty rough as well but but there was a hatred of the Nazis but very rarely in any war there are not many soldiers that that that respond with murder and torture and the rest of it most of them in my experience main maintain a lid on their emotions and and it's it's it's there but there are a few who do respond with with acts of well just murder you know or or panic it often it's panic that trigger triggers a murder so the first world war that that you mentioned it first up comradeship is the thing that binds the armies together but most of all it binds it binds you to your fellow soldiers that's what helps you that's what lets you go over the top it's it's not a king and country or

14:38 president it's not it's it's not religion what in the end when it all comes down to it it's mostly the blokes you with your mates them the men who you went through training with who face death with you that that's what helps you to get through it you know you mentioned something going over the top a minute ago such an iconic way of differentiating the at least Western Front experience of this war from all the others and you know it occurs to me that because of sort of the nature of Technology and the way things have gone I don't think you're ever going to get the same experience that those First World War soldiers went through ever again I mean I don't think you're ever gonna have hundreds and hundreds or thousands of guns peppering a small space of territory anymore you don't need to because of the accuracy you're never gonna mix them with gas the way you did I mean if you think as I do that

15:31 that would have been you know equal to worst place a soldier could have ever been right front of the line about to go over the top western front I don't think you're ever going to get that experience again you're never gonna have human beings watch I think I forgot the the author who had said one of the soldiers described watching a forest disappear in front of his eyes due to artillery I mean that's a human experience that I don't think any human beings gonna ever see again in the beginning of the Second World War Churchill's history of the war he talked about what was in store in 1919 if the war hadn't ended in 1918 the various you know horrible concoctions that the Allies had put together your latest book the last battle is from that era can you talk a little bit about what 1919 on the front might have looked like the I mean the British had that the Germans had a BlueCross gas it didn't work properly a

16:24 mixture of a pernicious gas and the sort of particles that and the particles made you vomit so you had to take your gas masks off and then the gas do you know the poisonous gas got you now the German version didn't work properly but the British had worked out and their allies by the way had worked out how to do it and they fully intended to poison most of the German army in this in 1919 it is a vicious war and and the practices and in a way that was just one step though you know that the because we've sort of moved on then it was mass peratis now there's no need for mass peratis now and although we did revert to it after El Alamein for instance has one they have them on the in 1944 on the west on the in Europe but it's replaced by mass bombing isn't it and then of course it's a nuclear method and then it's accuracy and so technology moves on and but the killing can still be on a mass scale for

17:23 instance in the Iraq war there was mass killing the Gulf War mass killing of and it needs to be remembered what happens is that the mass killing tends not to be on our side anymore you know so that burst that pretty well how I feel about it well it is interesting too because when we were talking about the first world war in the that we did on it you know you you you almost want to overwhelm the listener with both the casualty statistics and then the the amount I mean the sheer numbers of things like shells I mean the numbers overwhelm you um you know we a lot of Americans for example they like to tell jokes about the French and surrendering in the Second World War and so you would like to point out hey wait a minute you know when did our side ever take 27,000 dead in a single day you know those numbers are so overwhelming that in the United States you know there's not a lot of memorials

18:19 to the first world war on all this but you go to Europe and they are everywhere can you talk a little bit about sort of the lasting effect I mean the the feeling of connection the first world war never died down in Europe did it not really well for the French and Germans it was monstrously painful business I mean they their casualties are much higher than the British the French in particular you're right that I'll need that in August 1914 the French lost 27,000 dead in a single day now the British win John about suffering I think 600 dead Mons it's a different scale and the French sacker and the French then fought almost on their own for two or three years people say the Americans took a long time to get into the war you know from April 1917 to - well properly June July 1918 died 17 years so in 1917 to 1918 over a year but the British took from August 1914 to the salm July on the Somme before we were properly involved

19:23 you know that people often forget when they're throwing stones to other countries they forget like we sometimes do it the Americans or the Americans here at the French or the British or the French when you look at your own side we often have the same sort of problems or the same faults and I find that very it's one of those interesting things the American losses were dreadful in the first world war that they suffered a very high rate of losses from when they fully joined the Battle of that the battle in the art of the Argonne the mers Argonne region is murderous as murderous as any other battle in the First World War and considering that they only really fought full pelt for three months the American casualties are worth remembering but but for one reason another possibly because they disengaged him from Europe a bit in in the interwar years the Americans have never really remembered it in the same way as we do

20:22 yes I always try to imagine if the US had fought for two years at those kind of casualty rates yeah we'd have a few more war memorials around here certainly would you know I think about context you know if history teaches anything and helps us understand how things get to where they are and in this country once again you know they'll try to use in political discussions the lessons of history right we know from the 1938 appeasement stuff that you can't do this or that or the other thing you know the classic misuse of the lessons of history but I always try to and I'm gonna ask you for your opinion on this because you've read a lot of stuff the generation that gets accused of really doing anything they could to avoid another world war are the ones that lived through it as younger people how did that scar the leadership on on you know both sides really in the Second World War as they sort of maneuvered

21:14 Jacques Ede threatened tried to avoid via compromise a repetition of the worst thing any of them had ever lived through I think there's some truth it no I'm not an expert on the interwar years but certainly that there was peace movements in Britain and from the French were pretty broken by there are awful experiences you know Pathan is the one that gets most of the the blame for what happened but he was responding to a popular element within the country I cut that they just were not willing to suffer it all again I have so much sympathy for them lest that the Germans of course also that you just have less sympathy for them so man that the British you know it took a while for us to get properly into the war I mean even in the the second world war that the phoney war and then you know that there's a people were trying to get that there was an appeasement move in in Britain right until Churchill took

22:16 over and Churchill for all his faults was the one that finally pinned the British into into opposed to Nazi Germany in the long term because there were elements in British society that were perfectly happy to do a deal with Hitler it you you know it's a complex period which I am NOT an expert on at all your latest book called the last battle focuses on you know from a military history standpoint I think one of the most fascinating periods in the First World War but it seems to get lost in the Verdun Xand the Psalms and the passion dales and all that talk a little bit about that era where we go away from the iconic western front of of a stalemate on the front to open movement again and something that looks like a you know prototype for a 1939 warfare it certainly is I mean everything changes with the its the Allies come up with the all arms battle which is basically binding all the different weapons the artillery

23:21 their gas the mass machine gun fire the tanks the aeroplanes that the light machine guns at that you know the mortars everything together working together with to overwhelm anything Germans could do to the breakthrough but also it's the different that not just attacking on one place like at the Somme or pusher but to attack for attacks for battles for days the Americans go first that then then the British and the Canadians then and then the French the Belgians and the British and then finally the British again and the French for battles for day is pushing the Germans now the reason it's missed out and normally books finished round about the 8th of August my own book on 1918 a very British victory which was a bit of a joke title I have to admit I don't know why I did that I have got a sense of humor which just come out at times possibly naughtily and the poem was you sort of you publisher if they say right

24:20 we've had enough of them going over the top now we read and that's why you tend to miss out even that book by me you know misses the last six weeks of the war and I want to put that right with this because there are so many enormous battles open warfare comes and open warfare is worse the casualty figures get higher much higher because because you're in the open if something goes wrong you know Haig orders the British to go forward to push through in a very modern fashion push through ignore isolated pockets of resistance they'll be dealt with but if you're an infantry soldier and you go past an isolated pocket of resistance you'll get killed and the emmaus will as well because they'll fire into your flanks as you go by so it's efficient militarily but it leads to huge casualties it's a painful time for the British and for the Americans who are learning at the same time and anyone anyone who has insults the American the

25:18 courage of the American troops are only in the Argonne Murs battles is is mad because if you insult them you're insulting the British on the Somme and you're insulting the French in 1914 you're insulting basically armies that don't know what's going to happen to them they haven't had a chance to learn and that I think you don't learn this until you get right into the end of the war because the Americans don't really get into the war until until September about September 26 that's when their war really starts when they attack you know the Algar Argonne forest what a place you know I've been there it's murder you know you mentioned earlier and you just sort of opened the door to it again one of the one of the aspects one of the opinions one of the points of views on this subject that you're kind of known for you know I'd put you and I guess you would put yourself in the camp of those who look at for example the performance

26:13 of the generals which of course famously some compared to you know butchery - if I could I could I could sum it up maybe doing pretty well considering what a natural learning curve on on a big technological revolution in military affairs like this one might be is that fair to say that you think that they've done a pretty good job all things considered spot-on particularly some of the more advanced French and British general and and by Hague I know it makes me unpopular in some places the thing about Hague was he was don't think of him as a general think of him as a chief executive of a massive American corporation someone who who provides direction someone who brings things together someone who enables and makes things happen if you think of him that way you're getting a much better idea of what he was he was a commander in chief of five armies there is no such thing in the Second World War I mean you know

27:13 each day I mean there was people our supreme commanders but they had people to deal with politicians he had people deal with their allies that doesn't happen in the First World War it's just Haig who has to deal with all of them and that's how it works and they did come up and but when it's not Haig comes up with it but in enables the system which allow see all arms battle to function and can I just want it's not a learning curve what it is is two big dipper's side by side and once the Allies on the British if you were to look at it narrowly British or Americans and then the other side is the Germans and for every new attacking method you bring in the Germans bring in a defensive method - it's not a curve you go up and you go down and something that works on Tuesday might not work next Thursday because the Germans will have changed their tactics that's an analogy not an exact timeframe obviously but

28:06 what I mean is it's constantly changing so let's stay in 1915 one trench line perhaps one and a half then later in that year there's three trench lines by the year afterwards there's three trench systems and then redoubts soon after that you start to get the pillboxes the underground block houses where the troops can be kept safe you get different machine-gun tactics so the Germans are constantly changing now we change as well British bring in tanks are they great not for first but they're part of it they're different tactics different infantry tactics so both sides are changing and hence if you think of two big dipper's I think you call them something else in America but you know the little railway lines going up and down hills and running side-by-side and you find out who's going to win a battle by way you are in relation to the other side hence on the psalm first as a psalm first day of the psalm 19 16 we're very

29:02 low down there the Germans have got great trench systems great weapons of defense and we were inexperienced we don't know what we're doing but all told by the end of the war we really have learned to wear a very high AB we're looking down on the Germans but it is a complex system that I think Gordon Corrigan a British historian once said it wasn't the generals that killed our boys it was the Germans and it's the same for your American lads it's the Germans that did it and when we try and blame just our generals or just our senior officers or blame our allies you're not understanding what's happening we're fighting a very complex war against the best army in the world one of the biggest army in the world the Germans you wrote in your book that modern warfare was just so damn complicated in every level so let's talk about that for a minute because it seems to me and I and you know obviously they

29:58 were there were earlier Wars where these changes happened but so slowly that they may not have been important seems to me that the First World War is the first one where we get that very modern sort of sense where technology is changing so quickly that it's not that you're going to have to learn the lessons of this war and adapt for the next war you're gonna have to learn the lessons of today's air combat for example so that in six months you have the newest discovery or the other side is going to shoot your people out of the air now in the Second World War you saw this this this dynamic going on all the time what's the latest tank what's the latest version of the airplane but in the first world war it seems like that's the first time that that needing to learn on the fly and adapt during the conflict becomes while a war winning or a war losing potentially thing absolutely and it's so quick I mean the aircraft that took

30:50 before the Battle of the Somme the aircraft that took that one control the air over the Somme were British and that there were things like the dh2 the you know the the Fe to be the the Sopwith one our Strutter by God there were names tekonsha with them camels made that's 17 that's later but they they took control they they were outclassed totally by the Albatross just three months later three months now people like me still think that the you know that their Hawker Harry is a decent aircraft that's 1950s technology that flew in the 60s 70s and 80s and has been outdated now for a best part of ten years then it was month just months and you could be flying an aircraft that was great and now he's useless in fact it's a death trap when you meet something better and and I find and I think that that there is a warfare as a catalyst for change you get generals or people like generals who define a need and then you get

31:57 scientists who who do the thinking who work out the theory of how to meet that need and then you have you know you have the practical men now that they're engineers they're practical soldiers and they work at her to actually do it you know how to fix that camera to an aeroplane you know how to you know somebody else works out the focal lengths and everything else but you know someone has to work it out you get the theory of a synchronization machine so you can shoot through the propeller or not through the propeller if you see what I mean but the theory is very well and good but you need practical men to make it work and warfare drives a long technological change a bit like in the sixties um if I might suggest although it's not my subject a bit like the space race did the same you know driving along technological change because someone's defined a very real need well and then to bowtie this with what we just talked

32:51 about and then somebody from the military hierarchy has to figure out how it all fits together operationally and if you're the CEO like you said and a guy like Douglas Haig you have to remember that it's a guy who has to factor in all this what we would call today high tech stuff who's a cavalry officer born in the mid 19th century yep he was but he looked and he was known as the educated soldier he was an F there I mean you read it you can find a quote for everything if you look through the things so you'll find you know but he was a an enthusiast from machine in fact if Hague has a prom problem he's often too keen on new weapons you know he he he he doesn't realize that well not that he doesn't realize but sometimes he doesn't appreciate that that you have to bed them in there's no point building 300 tanks and sending them forward if you don't know how to drive them which we didn't in 1916 it's

33:45 only 1917 we knew how they worked how about how to use them in action how to fit them in into the all arms battle the what's going on is very like maybe a British term or it may be an American term that we now use but Haig would not have recognized his term but best practice you know what I mean all the time the British Army isn't engaging in some little best practice they wouldn't know what that meant but they they look at a battle what worked what didn't best practice they then disseminate in a series of pamphlets called the SS unfortunately with our perspective but SS pamphlets those pamphlets how to do this how to use a tank in battle how to use Lois machineguns how to make an attack how to do this how to do that and this this is just you know this is just the stuff of modern warfare and it takes staff officers it takes generals and it takes someone like Haig at the top to coordinate it he's not a genius he's not

34:45 Napoleon he's probably not even Wellington but what he is is a driven individual whose mine for one reason other is it's a perfect staff officer mine a combination of detail drive and that the gut to set a direction you know a direction which is painful to many of the men who served for him when you're reading the histories - I mean it's so funny because in any of Churchill's a perfect example of someone who will push this but you mentioned it with Hague - where you can see that the best way to use this new technology is to sort of surprise the other side with it and benefit from the shock value but as you just pointed out the problem is is that you don't know how to use it until you've used it a few times and then by then of course the Germans have started responding with countermeasures and whatnot I mean remember was that Churchill talked about using the tanks when they first appeared

35:36 in little pinpricks as opposed to some giant battle where a thousand of them overwhelmed the front but as you pointed out if that was the first time you ever really employed them would it have been effective at all that I'd like to take yes that's a great example is the foot the 15th of September is the first tank attack three courses and broke I'm rubbish at statistics I'm not that kind of history let's just take the broad brush 3/4 of their world 2/3 of them broke down and never got to the front they'd left gaps in the barrage the the creeping barrage which run forward in front of the infantry for the tanks when they weren't there the infantry didn't have any artillery support in front of them they got lost they had at the back wheels because they thought they needed wheels at the back to steer them they had no idea how to communicate between themselves in the infantry when they go into action to be absolutely honest

36:29 there were several several historians cynical historians who think the tanks probably killed more British troops and German troops that day now that is more what we call an outlier you know it's more just a point rather than a serious remark but the point is it what he had the slightest how to use the tanks in action and we didn't have until hambre you know which is which is 1978 in 1917 a year and a couple of months later if we'd sent a thousand tanks as they were on the 15th of September 1916 over the top it would have been a disaster sorry that's okay and we're getting us some glitches on this end which is not wonderful um so talk to me talk to me a little bit if you could about the the difference that four years has made by the time this book that you put out now the last battle is focusing on this the governments of all these countries are fundamentally transformed I mean Russia Imperial Russia is gone by this time

37:35 austria-hungary is shattered and looking for a way out of the war behind the scenes you know France has endured some serious troop morale problems in the not-too-distant past and you know that's traditionally like the finest army in the world and has gone from the greatest creditor nation to one that is transferring their debt to New York now what's the difference between the armies of 1914 and the government's that support them versus these armies of early 1918 and the government's that support and direct them well the 914 armies would have been recognizable by Napoleon the tactics the way they were used would have been recognized ball from Napoleon from a hundred years before they got modern weapons but they had no idea how to use him the government's were old-fashioned governments I mean I know Britain best but so I'll use him as an example Lloyd George is very very different for up for

38:33 him from Asquith who led the government Asquith is not particularly competent he's a polite old gentleman drinks far too much squiffy Asquith Lloyd George has many many faults in fact I'd need a few more many's to really encompasses many faults but he is driven and you don't have to hate Lloyd George just because you like Hey they they were they were chalk and cheese but they both did their bit Lloyd George was a classic war leader he provided civilian direction his idea of what to do with soldiers was madness and he he did not help the direction of the war on a strategic level but on a sort of global level he provided the drive but Britain was running out of man it was running out of resources it was running out of troops and and it was running out of time the war had to be finished in eighteen and that's one thing that Haig realized he was desperate to finish the war not to give the Germans another you

39:33 know chance to provide to dig another set of trench lines shortened perhaps saved from MERS that's what they really Hague and Fache both feared there they had to get them the war finished frappe he said it had a revolution we know there wasn't a revolution in France we know there wasn't one in Britain but they could have been and people were very aware of that so those governments that would have made it into 1919 if the war we're continuing might have had problems on the Allied side too not just the the Central Powers oh absolutely war weariness I mean it's just ink you know it was an incredible there was no money there's no men everything's depressed it it's it's just you know an awful thing to be involved in and countries were struggling and we needed lloyd-george to provide the leadership at the center and and the determination to fight on to make sure that the would be beaten I mean it's so

40:41 easy just to give up to just say well we'll come to some compromise but leaders like Lloyd George would not accept that I think that's everything I mean did I is there something about the new book that I didn't ask you about that that is worth pointing out I mean I I'm with you I find it not just fascinating but it's a little like discovering that a band and you thought you'd heard every song from them had a whole bunch of songs you didn't know about and they're bigger and more interesting than you ever knew other than not being able to pronounce all of the battlefields and the wonderful in that wonderful last push in France what about that last book have we not talked about that you think is it is especially compelling I'll tell you what the thing for me is it's an emotional response which I think you look pretty it's just a it's the essence of the book if you've been fighting for four years say you're

41:34 a soldier in those trenches you've been fighting for four years and just as you start to think it's coming to an end it's come into that and then you you have to go forward you have to go into the attack and not everybody do what you recognize for Second World War it's called shell-hole dropping you can't all drop out you know you can't all fall back to keep keep behind you just have to keep going with your mate and the temptation to shirk in those final attacks in the final days must have been enormous but somehow most found from somewhere the inner resolve which which people like me just can't really grasp or understand because it's beyond our experience to finish the job you know it was the worst of all for that and I'm not just saying this because you're American the woofer of all which they was pursing forced the final attacked on me then the night of the tenth eleventh and even the morning

42:32 of the 11th and and you know the Americans had nearly 3,000 casualties I'm rubbishes had on that final 24 hours and just imagine what was going through their heads when they were told I mean the Marines that were told they had to cross the mers you know a hundred foot wide river with Germans with machine guns on the other side and just I mean what went through their head and and that's the last thing I'd like to say about just just put yourself there and think about it that's why I like your book so much because you do such a great job of giving me the chance to do that listen we'll try to sell you a few books this time I hope you'll come on the next time you have one I hope you'll write a bunch more thank you very much I'd love to I've really enjoyed it thank you for had a great time - like I said meeting heroes take care and thank you so much thank you so again my apologies for the digital

43:23 glitches there I will try to figure out a better method I do want to encourage you if you are a fan or interested in the First World War to get mr. Hart's books the Great War is absolutely a classic is one on the naval Battle of Jutland in 1916 follows the same pattern with his context punctuated by oral historian quotes it works so well he wrote one on Passchendaele which is you know as you know probably awful muddy horrible bloody symbolic of the whole war at that stage and then the new book of course the last battle which focuses on the less well known but murderous time period in the war the phase of the first world war where everyone got out of the trenches and started moving again and began to take the kind of casualties that reminded them why they first dug into the ground in the first place now as an addendum a couple of things worth noting first of all at the very end of the conversation with mr. heart he was

44:23 talking about Pershing and he was saying things like you know on the 10 thought even on the 11th you know he was launching these offensives just a little explanation the tenth in the 11th or the November 10th in November 11th 1918 the day before and the day of the end of the war the Armistice taking effect everybody knew that you know at this hour on this day we're gonna stop shooting so everybody knew ok the war ends tomorrow or the war ends today so how much does it bother you as a soldier in the trenches well maybe not even in the trenches at that point leaning up against a broken-down old French brick house in a ruined French building behind the tank as you're prepared to move forward to find out that your general wants to launch an offensive that's gonna cost a lot of your lives in the last 24 hours of the war or something so that's what he was talking about you might think in your head of reasons why

45:22 a general might want to do something like that and play with your own motivations for a minute now the other thing I wanted to quote was we had mentioned that in the beginning of his famous series on the second world war you can't even call it a history you should call it almost like a personal account from a participant but Churchill's history the Second World War has a wonderful start to it where he kind of talks about he sort of picks up at the end of the First World War which when you think about it is not a bad way to write the histories and he talks about you know the war ending when it did and what was going to happen if it didn't right what what the plan was for 1919 and of course the war ends in 1918 right but but Churchill says if 1919 happened you know they was going to unleash terrorists unlike you know any of the world had ever seen Churchill writes quote but all that happened in the four years of the Great

46:20 War was only a prelude to what was preparing for the fifth year the campaign of the Year 1919 would have witnessed an immense accession to the powers of destruction had the Germans retained the morale to make good their retreat to the Rhine they would have been assaulted in the summer of 1919 with forces and by methods incomparably more prodigious than any yet employed thousands of air Wayans would have shattered their city's scores of thousands of cannon would have blasted their front arrangements were being made to carry simultaneously a quarter of a million men together with all their requirements continuously forward across country in mechanical vehicles moving 10 or 15 miles each day poison gases of incredible malignity against which only a secret mask which the Germans could not obtain in time was proof would have stifled all resistance and paralyzed all life on the hostile front subjected to attack no doubt the

47:21 Germans too had their plans but the hour of wrath had passed the signal of relief was given and the horrors of 1919 remained buried in the archives of the great antagonists end quote and it's worth pointing out that even with the terrible and horrible destruction of the Second World War there were some of the horrors of the first that were not revisited which seems counterintuitive to human history doesn't it this idea that in total war human beings would use every single weapon at their disposal you know to fend off total destruction yet those leaders in the Second World War who themselves were younger people who fought in the first and who experienced that somehow managed to not use poison gas again on a wide scale for example I don't know what conclusion is you can draw from that but it's an interesting variable to consider isn't it finally we had mentioned a note specifically that it's stuck in my mind

48:29 and it obviously stuck in Peter Hart's buying - from a soldier that was writing his turns out to be last note home to his family and it it exemplifies the way heart tends to work where he will write a piece that sets up this emotional exclamation point and then deliver it to you and it just state we used it in blueprint for Armageddon because it is so emotionally powerful so here's what Hart writes he's talking about this battle at the song which he Princeton the interview that terrible British day where they figured out oh my gosh you know this isn't working the way we thought meanwhile we're trying to figure it out in the open under machine-gun fire behind a lot of barbed wire and he says that the soldiers about to go on this attack would write these letters home to their families and here's what he says and then he quotes the powerful letter he says and this is from his book the Great War by the way

49:27 quote the final reports from the front meaning of the psalm battle that filtered back to the British High Command were generally positive in tone overall the visual impression of the barrage proved far more devastating than the truth on the ground British progress had been more than discounted by German improvements in their defences but that was not known at the time on the British side of the wire in any case they had no choice the offensive had to go ahead as the future of the alliance with France depended on it in the last few hours as Hague's men prepared for the ordeal many wrote their sad last letters home one was so beautifully expressed that it exemplifies the feelings of men trapped and tormented by the conflicting calls of country and family now he's quoting an original letter quote I must not allow myself to dwell on the personal there's no room for it here also it is demoralizing but I do not want to die

50:25 not that I mind for myself if it be that I am to go I'm ready but the thought that I may never see you or our darling baby again turns my bowels to water I cannot think of it with even the semblance of equanimity my one consolation is the happiness that has been ours also my conscience is clear that I've always tried to make life a joy to you I know at least that if I go you will not want that is something but it is the thought that we may be cut off from one another which is so terrible and that our babe may grow up without my knowing her and without her knowing me it is difficult to face and I know your life without me would be a dull blank yet you must never let it become holy so for to you will be left the greatest charge and the world the upbringing of our baby God blessed that child she's the hope of life to me my darling au revoir it may be that you will only have to read these lines as one of

51:25 passing interest on the other hand they may well be my last message to you if they are no through all your life that I've loved you and baby with all my heart and soul that you two sweet things were just all the world to me I pray God that I may do my duty for I know whatever that may entail you would not have it otherwise and quote Captain Charles may 22nd Manchester Regiment and then Peter Hart writes quote Charles may the loving husband of Bessie May and the father to his baby Pauline would indeed be killed the next day he's buried in the Danzig a lie British Cemetery small-scale tragedies he writes litter the history of war sad reminders that the necessities of war ruin the lives of millions end quote that ladies and gentlemen is an art form my thanks to Peter Hart for talking with us today and listen down the road if we're lucky we'll get to do it again we've been telling you about audible for

52:37 years obviously audiobooks and a whole lot more if you haven't discovered the joys of audiobooks there's elements to it that I think are gonna develop that I already find fascinating take the element of whose voice it is reading to you I mean something you don't consider when you think about getting a book is it I mean who's the narrator I mean I imagine one day you're gonna be able to customize this with some sort of button you know with your favorite movie star I want Michael Caine narrating today's book and you know it'll all come out that way but I was looking for recommendations for today's particular little discussion and Peter Hart who we just talked to has a couple of books on audible but they're narrated by different people and so I'm sampling them going okay do I want Peter Hart's book on the psalm in this voice you're doing what Peter Hart's other book on the psalm in this other voice and it's

53:26 interesting cuz it's an element you don't think about there's a performance aspect to it it's one of the things to like about audiobooks is you get to kind of you know have different people read to you in different voices decide what you like and like I said someday I imagine this will be quite customizable audio books of course been around a long time so has audible we've been telling you about them for years they've been supporting us and we've watched as they have you know sort of rolled out more and more features to what they do I mean one of the things we've talked about that's great about audible you know you sign up to audible you get points you get a book that's free every month I mean it's one of those membership type services but there's things that they just do right I mean they roll over you know your points kind of so if you don't get a book this month we'll all those points accrue so that you know you have

54:13 more next month you own the books which I love it is so weird to me to purchase something and then realize wait a minute if you read the fine print you don't actually own this you own these books if I'm gonna buy something like this I want to own it I need a big selection too and audibles got one that carry titles in business the classics fiction history romance mystery thriller sci fi fantasy self-development kids and yeah I mean you know like a bookstore right when I was young if you liked audiobooks you got to go to the library and see what they had available on cassette tapes now when a new book comes out and hits the you know bookstores digital and you know brick and mortar audible usually has it too that's a sign of the popularity these things and why not it allows you to read a good book to motivate yourself educate yourself entertain yourself make yourself more successful and inspired

55:12 while you're doing some other chore that does not require your full attention you gotta mow the lawn well maybe you can you know get one of those classic books read at the same time gotta iron some sheets well why can't you be enjoying a romance novel at the same time you get where I'm coming with this busy people are consuming books at rates that well when you consider how busy they are they shouldn't be able to find the time to do that audiobooks fill a void and audibles the best place to get them and if you sign up today you can get a free audiobook with a 30-day trial membership go to audible.com forward slash Carlin and browse the unmatched selection of audio programs you can download a title start listing it's that easy go to audible.com forward slash Carlin or text Carlin to 500 - 500 and get started today if you don't know what to get I recommend Peter Hart's to books on the psalm the newer one probably has more

56:07 updated information the official title of that is the psalm the darkest hour on the Western Front but he's got an earlier book on the psalm also on audible narrated by an English gentleman I believe his name is pronounced Tim Pinkett Smith and to me it sounds more like Peter Hart's actually reading me the book so the newer book probably has the newer information but if you really want to have somebody reading to you that sounds more like the author get the earlier book the good news is they're both available on audible and if you can't decide feel free to buy them both sure the older hardcore history shows can be a bit traumatic with titles like death throes of the Republic judgment at Nineveh and addicted to bondage we just consider that truth in advertising no pain no gain is our motto pick up the entire catalog from Dan Carlin com be sure to follow us on Twitter the address is at hard core history

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "HH addendum EP4 Exposing the Hart of The Great War"?

Dan Carlin (Host), Peter Hart (Guest).

What is "HH addendum EP4 Exposing the Hart of The Great War" about?

The discussion centers on the work of Peter Hart, an expert in World War I history, who excels at intertwining emotional personal narratives with broader historical events. By highlighting poignant documents and quotes, Hart adds depth to the storytelling, illustrating how high-level military decisions impact the lives of individual soldiers, thereby enriching our understanding of the war's…

What is mentioned in this Dan Carlin episode?

9 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including First World War, Peter Hart, The Second World War, Blueprint for Armageddon, British Imperial War Museum, Argonne. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "HH addendum EP4 Exposing the Hart of The Great War"?

The episode runs 57 min; the transcript is about 10,373 words in 59 timestamped sections.

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