DTFH 728 Leonard Pickard

What is discussed, and when

1. 0:00 – 10:00: PB – Chiropractor (Dr. Bard, Albert Hoffman, Leonard Bquard
2. 50:00 – 1:00:00: Jiren Laneir
3. 1:00:00 – 1:07:19: Jack Kornfield, The Rose of Paraclesis

Notable quotes from "DTFH 728 Leonard Pickard"

• January 15th to the 17th. Won't you come see me? Forgive me if I get a little sentimental about today's guest. Leonard Bquard was a prolific LSD manufacturer from the 90s. In…

  about Leonard Bquard · at 0:14

• On Rogan and I think I talked about how insane it is that somebody like William Leonard Bard was serving two life sentences in prison for creating what I would consider to be a medicine, something that really benefited me. and.

  about PB – Chiropractor (Dr. Bard · at 2:08

• Netflix, The Midnight Gospel, is related to simul the simulation hypothesis and sort of the Jiren Laneir wrote a great book.

  about Jiren Laneir · at 54:18

• Subscribe to his Patreon. It's the Last Alchemist podcast. Check out his book, The Rose of Paraclesis.

  about The Rose of Paraclesis · at 1:06:59

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

• PB – Chiropractor (Dr. Bard — Person · 2 mentions · first at 2:13
• Leonard Bquard — Person · 1 mention · first at 0:20
• Albert Hoffman — Person · 1 mention · first at 1:34
  They could be used as a treatment potentially for PTSD, depression. The discoverer of LSD, Albert Hoffman, even said that he wished the prohibition hadn't happened because it's…
• Jiren Laneir — Person · 1 mention · first at 54:24
• Jack Kornfield — Person · 1 mention · first at 1:07:11
  Thank you all for listening. I'll see you soon with a conversation with Jack Kornfield. Thanks for tuning in.
• Dusel — Person · 1 mention

Books & papers

• The Rose of Paraclesis — Book · 1 mention · first at 1:07:04

Concepts & topics

• DTFH — Concept · 1 mention

Full transcript with timestamps

0:00 Greetings, friends. It is me, Dusel. Hello. First, before we get going on this incredible episode, I got to plug my shows. I'm going to be in Appleton, Wisconsin at the Skyline Comedy Club January 15th to the 17th. Won't you come see me? Forgive me if I get a little sentimental about today's guest. Leonard Bquard was a prolific LSD manufacturer from the 90s. In fact, according to the DEA, after his arrest, LSD dropped by 90% in the United States. That's how much LSD this man was making. meaning that if you were taking psychedelics during that time period, you probably took some LSD that he created. Now, the reason I'm going to get sentimental is because when I was in high school, LSD completely changed the trajectory of my life for the better. I was plunged into this mystical, beautiful universe. And now I understand a lot of reasons that I responded to it.

1:22 We're discovering now that LSD and many psychedelics seem to cause neurogenesis. They could be used as a treatment potentially for PTSD, depression. The discoverer of LSD, Albert Hoffman, even said that he wished the prohibition hadn't happened because it's smaller doses, potentially LSD could work as something for ADHD, like a psychedelic kind of aderall. Regardless, it was very important to me when I was in high school and after high school and has been a great friend uh throughout different periods of my life. And so at some point quite some time ago, I was on Rogan and I think I I I talked about how insane it is that somebody like William Leonard Bard was serving two life sentences in prison for creating what I would consider to be a medicine, something that really benefited me. and compared to a lot of other elicit drugs out there that really didn't seem to be destructive at all. Now, before I go on,

2:39 let me just say this. Please be careful for you youngs out there. Do your research. This is a one of the most powerful chemicals on the planet. Don't go running to find LSD because my old ass is yapping about it. Look up brain development. You know, the human brain apparently doesn't stop developing until the mid20s. And so, you know, if I could go back in time, I think I I would probably wait based on the new research coming out. I just want to say that I'm not saying everybody should take LSD. It might not be right for you. There's apparently some kind of genetic predisposition some people have.

3:26 It could actually be the worst thing that ever happened to you. All I'm saying is I don't want to sound like some kind of idiot LSD advocate like I'm ignoring all the potential pitfalls, dangers, all the things. It's take it very seriously. I'm a dad now. I'm sorry. In the old days, I would never say something like that, but I do believe it now. Maybe I'm just preparing for the inevitable conversation I'm gonna have to have with my kids about it. Regardless, it always bothered me that LSD had a 5-year mandatory minimum prison sentence attached to it. I couldn't wrap my head around it. The idea that you could go to jail for five years for taking something that seemed to expand consciousness, that seemed to open up the heart, that seemed to connect you to nature, and that the next day seemed to actually not have some kind of hangover effect, but improved mood. That that improvement would last sometimes for weeks. I just

4:32 couldn't get it. like why don't they want us to take this stuff? It was very confusing to me and it still is. But uh the prohibition obviously is still going on. It's still I don't know a schedule one drug, something like that. But thanks to um changes in the prohibition, people have been doing research on it and other countries. They're actually I I don't know if they're prescribing it yet, but at one point many years ago, I actually bought stock in a company that was manufacturing LSD just as some kind of like ridiculous, silly celebration of the fact that finally we're moving past this insane, horrific, stupid, idiot prohibition on psychedelics. And William Leonard Bard, he took one for the team. He was given two consecutive life sentences for manufacturing LSD. Thank God he is now out of prison. And I guess I just was like, you know, talking about how insane it was on Rogan that this man was in

5:47 jail. And then after they released him, someone reached out and said he wanted to talk to me. and we had a phone conversation and almost immediately became friends. I realized that I was talking to maybe one of the smartest people I'd ever talked to and that um since then we've had wonderful chats on the phone and finally he agreed to do my podcast. I've probably asked him to do it at least 10 times. Um, so he's here with us today and I would love it if you would subscribe to his Patreon. He's got a wonderful podcast called The Last Alchemist on Patreon. Links will be down below. Now, everybody, welcome to the DTFH. William Leonard Peard.

6:40 Mr. Bard, I'm calling you Mister because of my deep respect for you. Welcome to the DTFH. And I this is a cheesy way to start a podcast, but from the bottom of my heart, I want to thank you for the work you did for us. Um, you know, I am certain that I have taken LSD you manufactured and for me LSD was a net positive in my life. And the fact that you were sent to prison for manufacturing something that you know when I was in high school, we weren't where we're at today. You're not getting therapy. I didn't know anything about Buddhism or any cosmic anything and you stumble upon LSD and suddenly you're getting this download and you're realizing you're seeing past the tiny little world that you've been programmed into. And so, and I think I I speak for a great many people. Thank you. And I'm so sorry that you got locked up for the incredible work.

7:50 Well, thank you, Duncan. I sometimes people say, "Thank you for your service, and I feel like I'm in the military." That sort of thing.

7:56 You basically were. Yes. Well, you know, your early experiences explain a lot of who you are today and your flexibility and creativity and general buoyancy. Uh for the audience, Duncan and I have had some extraordinarily lengthy and exuberant phone calls.

8:13 So he has a very fast mind. Well, delight to know. So thank you, Duncan, for for the

8:19 invite. You got it. and and uh I you know I think it's important just for those of you who out there who might not be aware of who Leonard is when you were um busted the DA reports that 90% of the LSD something around 90% of the LSD in the country disappeared because you were creating that much LSD that you were one of the primary sources of it in the United States for

8:53 well certainly the government's view of course they tried to make the case as large as possible

8:58 oh I see this it's hard to ignore 300 million doses [clears throat] or more going out that probably made uh um quite a a world tour of a newer chemical

9:11 oh in terms [clears throat] of the actual amounts uh no one really knows perhaps one or two people really know the quantities that that whether or not larger than the government's estimate or considerably smaller, but we'll never tell.

9:27 Oh, and and you know what? I I I just Let's just leave it at that. I love that answer. The

9:34 Yeah, the you know, in thinking about the I I hate to use this word for it, but just out of laziness, we'll call it the LSD industry. Um, even though it's the opposite of that, if you ask me versus other like clandestine drugs sold to this day, what I found so curious about it is that, you know, I could remember, you know, looking at a hit of acid in my hand or something and marveling over the mysterious path it had taken to get into my hand. I mean, on top of the fact that this square of paper uh had transformed me in the most incredible ways, there was the fact that there was a 5-year mandatory minimum prison sentence if I got busted with this tiny little piece of paper that only seemed to connect me with my friends, the universe, that was giving me visions of um you know, a realm that you only read about in books that You had some intuition that existed, but you this was showing you the mystical vision and from

10:48 that you could extrapolate what sort of system we were living under. Why don't they want people to have this tiny bit of paper in their hand? And and and how in the world could they think you need to go to prison for five years for this? And

11:09 we could talk about that a little bit. Um, you know, it's not really an industry in the sense of industrial settings or pilot, that sort of thing.

11:18 Uh, underground manufactur is more of a a cottage industry. It's all clandestine,

11:25 very carefully done, very reverently done preparation, usually an extremely isolated environment, very very high security because one's life is risk every second of every day. The the approach is um perhaps in a sense more like um uh benedicting mons monks in the 16th century making wine

11:48 because they thought it would stop war but done with delicacy precision reverence [sighs]

11:55 I'm so happy to hear that more of an ecclesiastical uh activity I think that's what I suspected and um this is the sort of contrast I want to draw is, you know, when someone's whipping up some cocaine, you know, in Colombia and dumping gasoline in a oil drum or whatever. I don't know how to make cocaine, but someone's whipping that stuff up. They're not thinking this is going to this this is like an atomic bomb for consciousness. This is going to move through the zeitgeist and create incredible works of art. Incredible epiphies. No doubt incredible like technological innovations will come from people going into this space. They're just thinking we're going to make a ton of money. And I never got the sense that that was the motive in people like you who were creating the substance. So, it's a joy to hear that

12:55 you've got it exactly uh you know in the sense of say methamphetamine or cocaine or PCP or that sort of thing. Uh it's it's just a uh a preparation of financially fuel that sort of thing but um in ritual preparation of what many consider sacrament

13:15 well it is an entirely different approach and uh it would be criminals to treat it any other way. You know LSD has an interesting aspect. Uh it's almost um mystical in a way even though it has to be approached scientifically. That means the chemistry has to be rigorous. Um all the materials are balanced perfectly and uh weighed measured u synthesis thoughtfully considered and developed over years technically accurate. It can fail if the well this is a bit risky. It can fail if the uh the heart or the intention of the person at the bench is uh off center or not focused entirely upon the hopeful benevolence of the compound as it goes out around the world.

14:09 Wow. One must focus entirely upon what one is doing. It's difficult to imagine more than five or 10 doses. It's difficult to imagine a hundred a thousand but a million or 10 million or 100 million is can't can't be comprehended

14:27 you know and so one is releasing uh uh to the globe um the most potent never came up well known

14:37 in your book the road you describe it as a forge right am I remembering that correctly a forge it's like you're in front of a forge you're working in front of this mystical fire that

14:50 I describe it as as the moment of synthesis is the moment that things become psychoactive that happens within 30 seconds.

14:59 Suddenly suddenly you have tens of millions of doses being born. What does it feel like?

15:05 Often describe that as like standing at the ark of the covenant. Wow. That's it.

15:11 This blinding light just radiating outward with force unimaginable force blasting through every cell of one's body and mind.

15:21 Wow. That sort of thing. It's not it can't be can't be comprehended. Wow. Of course, in reality, one is just simply standing in front of a glass reactor perhaps with a hand on it invoking a invoking a prayer that it will act as a healing entity as it goes outward. We can get into this very deeply.

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17:57 [clears throat] Well, in that case, um this is a little early in our discussion to go so deeply into things, but um looks like the moment. Uh let me describe that for you. Uh

18:11 please. So when I was in a clandestine laboratory, an extremely remote environment um at a mountaintop or in the far deserts and it's totally silent outside of just the wind of the mountains uh under constellations fires are burning uh in one of the rooms. There may be votes lit here and there um incense. [clears throat] One is um dressed in protective gear to prevent overexposures. One can't stand in a room with 100 million doses. You can't even stand there without [clears throat] some effect. Wow. Um music may be playing Gregorian chant or uh music from the jungle or or ceremonial music is playing. Uh the room is bathed in um deep red photographic light.

19:07 deep red light, not normal white light. This is to prevent the fragile molecule from being pushed in different directions that are deletterious to it. So bathed in red light covered in protective gear, [clears throat] votives burning, fires burning, um music playing, Hildigard van Bingan for example. And um within this wall of elaborate glassware, one is a 22 L vessel in which reactants are stirring and they're stirring under argon and inert gas because oxygen tends to damage the molecule as well. And things are stirring away and this moment moment that occurs within 30 seconds which this entire swirling [clears throat] liquid under argon goes from merely reactants of various chemicals with the labor names to the 10 million doses of the most potent neurochemical known that's very magical transformation.

20:15 Just the subtle way the molecules suddenly aggregate itself is is quite a miracle. But they're aggregating into also another miracle that quite a special compound that has affected millions of course over over many years. And so what does one do at that moment of birth of what may be an entity, a strong entity? What does one do? Does one go have a cigarette? Does one go watch TV? one at least the the underground chemists that I've known through the years they're about five or six people that do this kind of scale planetary scale and each in their own tradition Judeo-Christian for example in the Judeo-Christian religion one um kneels or stands hand on the reactor glove to hand on the rapture as this thing is being born [clears throat] and one invokes or calls out or petitions uh the universal creator whatever by whatever name dear lord if you will and says a little prayer which goes something like this.

21:46 May this substance the benevolent spirit throughout the world. May it do no harm. May it lift the hearts and minds of men and women. May it make us more compassionate and tolerant. May it allow us to see the future to come. May it protect our species. May it somehow end war and hatred. May we become kinder and more gracious and thankful. May we love the great forest and the oceans and all sentient beings. May we walk in light and grace as humans upon this beautiful planet.

22:59 That's beautiful. That's the best. It goes out. That's so great to hear. That's so great to hear. You feel it. I I felt that you feel it in the you know th this substance is so powerful. I I mean I could I know I mean look I feel like if anyone I could say this to you. I would know I was going to take LSD that day before I found any LSD. like I could feel it like it washed back through time or something and I would think to myself, "Oh, you're gonna take acid today." And then sure enough, someone would be like, "Do you want it?

23:49 Do you want some acid?" And it it's so powerful that if it's so powerful that one experience could theoretically, subjectively ripple backwards through time space, what in the world would that have been like? And it seems like all you could do was pray after encountering [clears throat] something like that. I just can't imagine. Were there any other visions you would have? I surely you must have that you feel comfortable talking about that that were born out of this womb.

24:28 Well, it's a that's a very difficult question. There was an event of a great magnitude in the lab that we might want to discuss a little later in our conversation. So, we can circle back to that one. It's It's kind of a fun story.

24:41 Okay. Well, I mean, you know what? Let's I I I think of you and Austin uh as a young man, you know, thinking uh gut trip today and suddenly it shows up in your hands. You know, I had the pleasure of being a young hippie in Austin at 2122 living near the university. [clears throat] We were all living on mattresses in those days. in little houses under the fraternity row because the effects in our generation. We were the first to be exposed to these things and that we we uh the effects were so profound that we had no one to talk to.

25:21 There were no elders. We could only talk other. There were no cell phones or computers.

25:26 So it was all word of mouth. Somehow we found each other went did you experience this? Did you experience that? and spoke of these uh transformative and equitable changes that could hardly be captured in language. But there we were young and experimental and we cared not for food appeared. Places to sleep appeared. We were on something bigger and it obsessed us. We had to talk about these marvelous uh transformations of consciousness. It was very very important. So, uh, yes, I I danced a lot, uh, around Lake Travis in the moonlight.

26:03 That's so cool. Well, I was actually in Hendersonville, North Carolina. I was not even in a big city like Austin, so we didn't have anyone to talk to about it. And and it it was so clandestine then. Uh, and because we were going through the uh war on drugs, there was all these, you urban myths floating around. you know, take if you take it more than a couple of times, you go quote legally insane and

26:31 [clears throat] um the you know, then you would stumble upon Terrence McKenna. That's as close as you had to an elder, which these days, you know, his writing is not considered as taboo as it used to be, which is suddenly here's this guy articulating the psychedelic experience in a positive way. This is good.

26:51 Brave, very brave. my first tour of uh prison in the oh god the late 80s early 90s um Terrence and I corresponded a bit and he was so kind to reach out and then he became very ill.

27:06 Yeah, Dennis and I chat occasionally we are helping various groups. Um that's uh Terrence was incredibly courageous in those days you risk academically you risk your career right he was saying the word psychedelic and it was so verboten that speaking public was unthinkable but there was Terrence with his gift of gab out there saying it all for us those that had no voice [snorts]

27:38 I just I I really want to emphasize What a nightmare it is that people like you are being put in prison. What a nightmare it is for and I and and the I mean this with all of my soul. What are we losing here? People like you, people as brilliant as you, people with a genuine desire to help humanity are currently locked up in prison for no reason. You know, people look back on the Inquisition. People look back on, you know, early Christians being fed the lions, early Christians being imprisoned, and they think, "Wow, well, thank goodness we're not doing that anymore, even though it's still happening."

28:33 Oh, but we are doing it. Fortunately, there are only a few hundred um people in state prisons and psychedelics and two or three in federal prisons based purely on psychedelics. That is a that is that is a crime against humanity because we need the alchemists and the scientists and the humanitarians doing their work freely without fear of arrest. And that and that would always color the experience, at least for me, is that you were in danger of going to jail for holding this stuff. And so

29:13 for all all of life since the age of uh 21 until uh 55 when it actually uh actually really happened you know I uh uh one learns some things it's not entirely uh uh total oppression one goes into a monlike state at least personally into mumplike state of course the other monks are very rowdy and tend to stab each other and that sort of

29:41 but there are lessons that um I wouldn't advise one learning these lessons in such a manner but

29:48 one one does a lot of endless soulsearching under certain circumstances and they can be very helpful to test your uh your faith

29:58 what kind of things happen to you do you have any prison stories or prison stories a lot of those uh people often ask me prison stories because it's the easiest accessible stuff and I always counter with goodness you can see that on YouTube lots of prison stories but you can't really see what goes on inside a psychedelic lab of

30:22 rightious yeah I would much rather hear about psychedelic prayers than prison stories

30:28 but um prison stories abound I uh goodness I was in maximum security from the first day fast forward forward slow forward 20 years to the last day all in maximum.

30:49 So like Ted Kazinski level isolation. Is that what you mean? Like Well, there's one level above maximum for a few hundred men um in which they never see daylight or each other and they're kept in single cells with the TV forever. Those are the mad bombers and what have you. And but uh the next level below that is maximum security. That's where the most violent, the um the lifers, uh the gangs, um the most heinous crimes one can possibly imagine. Crimes that are so humanly reprehensible that would be uh difficult for me to speak publicly about exactly what they were.

31:38 But um yeah, it's was not uncommon to um to uh try to get to a lunch with um someone that had killed two small girls, that sort of thing. And um not unself.

31:54 How did they [clears throat] react to why you were there? Well, it was an interesting I was an anomaly, something of an anomaly in the system. I was uh considerably older. The average age is 36. Um the average um education is in ninth grade. Um goodness. Um well there's some good stories around it. I was generally I was considered the professor. Everyone has a nick name. I'm the professor and I'm the guy in the library that does legal work all the time or reads all the time. Not involved in gang activity or what have you. Although there were some close calls.

32:33 Uh [clears throat] but one day a fellow walked up and this is interesting. Uh, I'm in the line [clears throat] in the chow hall and gangs are separated racially and they're all glowering at each other and I'm in the line going going in there and a [clears throat] this uh big strapping 30s something 65 all muscled up guy behind me said, "Are you Leonard?" And I turned and looked up and went, "Oh yes. He said, "We've all been praying for you man."

33:15 A and it turned out he was um sort of a hashish smuggler from Canada that had been on the festival trail and followed the D around all this sort of thing and knew everything and uh he became my confidant and if you will protector all I did

33:35 and a dear friend for many years. He's um went on to to [clears throat] gain his own freedom after 11 years is now living quite happily.

33:45 How so things like what happened? How did you get released? What what weren't you in there for life? How did you get out?

33:51 Yes, I had two life sentences back to back. Oh, rather concurrently. How does that work?

34:01 Without the possibility of parole. That means no way home. No way home. A death sentence.

34:10 Yeah. You stay there to fall over on the ground and die. So, in 2020, um, the Trump administration passed something called the First Step Act in the last week of a congressional session, uh, in 2018, bipartisan of a bill, which would, if it had not occurred in those days, would might have taken 10 years to come back around. That was a miracle. Number one, this allowed prisoners to petition the court directly for release uh stating their good works, their rehabilitation. Exceptional circumstances,

34:53 right? So I filed one of the first petitions that took a couple of years to percolate through. It was denied at every level. denied by the ward of the institution, [clears throat] denied by the regional uh bureau office, denied by the national office a year and a half, two years later, denied by the US attorney's office. No, we're not under any circumstance and senses letting the guard out of prison period. and then landed on the desk of a jurist, a new um described my attorney as the best judge in Kansas, very kind nearing retirement jurist who had u perhaps a greater vision.

35:44 Yeah. and a stroke of a pen. A man thousands of miles away that I' never met, never seen. A stroke of a pen, I was set free under compassionate release.

35:58 Wow. uh due to uh age uh due to good behavior inside uh due to their publicly their concerns about uh my vulnerability to the COVID epidemic.

36:14 But since they had intended me to die there, that seemed a little odd. Yeah. Plus, there are a lot of men my age and have served that amount of time that are still there. So we think that a big factor uh in it was to the motion for release. We attached a copy of the Rand Corporations uh book called uh the future of fentinel and the chapter three um discusses my work uh in the 90s at Kennedy School in Cambridge.

36:49 Wow. predicting that one day this thing, a drug called fentinel would become a major drug evident in 96.

37:01 Wow. But it took 20 years for it to happen. Wow. So Rand noted this in their book. We attached a copy of that to the motion saying we predicted this quite early and made suggestions, recommendations for anticipating it and maybe moderating it somewhat.

37:21 Yeah, we said it's coming and here's why and here's how to um have early warning and here's how to push back on it, but nobody would listen. So, Rand Corporation, the think tank in Santa Monica published all this and we attached that motion. We think that was uh we think that was helpful in the judge's decision, but it's not the type of thing the government would want to admit.

37:52 That is in How long were you in there? How long were you in there? 20 years. So you So you leave maximum security prison and in a completely different world than you entered technologically. I What?

38:08 Very much so. What? The girls were much younger. They dressed a little different.

38:15 But what was your, you know, with from your perspective having, you know, existed in a space that many people will never even know their entire lives? What was your take on the zeitgeist when you left prison? one of the most notorious prolific LSD manufacturers in the world steps out into a new world with the internet with all of this insane technology. What did you think?

38:50 Well, I'm I'm uh I I I like I'm enjoy new gadgets. Me, too. So um even though in my weekly phone call to my uh small son from 5 to 25

39:05 I I encouraged him to read the great books and put the cell phone down. Yeah. I when I stepped into a world where we have suddenly you know when I left it was phone booths.

39:18 When I come out everyone has these portable computers and constantly looking at them as they walk along the street.

39:24 Yeah. Uh suddenly we have worldwide instant effectively free communication among billions of people.

39:32 Yeah. We simultaneously have access to effectively all the world's knowledge in our fingertips. uh in the mid 90 up through the mid 90s it was if you wanted a bit of data [clears throat] you would go to a big library University of California Berkeley big library millions of books and go to the little wooden card catalog and filter through by hand until you came up with uh an index card that may have the information refer to a book that may have the information you want on it then spent all day down in the stack scrolling out these phones and then finding the page with the information you wanted,

40:14 right? That was uh one's entire life. Yeah. The 50 years doing that and suddenly on this small device there's your installation like that.

40:26 Yeah. Plus you can call anyone in the world, you can email anyone in the world. That was like a uh a revolution of the first magnitude. I was very uh delighted to see uh smartphones come along. I'd never seen one before and of course I tell a funny story about that often. And

40:45 please, if you don't mind, I'd love to hear it again. Or cell phone. Okay. Right.

40:53 [clears throat] So suddenly the order comes down uh from the federal courts and a few days later the the BOP hears about it and marches me up and suddenly I'm pushing a,000 pounds of legal materials over accumulated over 20 years of weekly litigation denied by the government 8 900 motions all the way out. Suddenly, I'm in a t-shirt, a pair of jeans, uh, $200 in my pocket, and I'm in a van with a government employee driving along the road. I'd seen I hadn't seen cars in 20 years. Everything looked like stretching to the horizon. I realized, my god, we live in [clears throat] these machines constantly, many hours a day when these multi-tonon devices do move us to see your friend 50 miles away when friends are arms reaching. Yeah,

41:48 prisons are like a small village. You see everybody, thousand men, hello, hello, and hello. Every day, everything's within arms reach. And suddenly the world, which things are quite distance, and these massive machines, frail uh elderly ladies driving these powerful things stretching to the horizon. They all look the same. They're all like clamshells. I'm pondering this,

42:14 watching the desert flow by and seeing living plants and cacti for the first time so many years. Then there is the bus station. Suddenly I'm alone. Van drives away. It's the first time that I haven't had an individual within arms reach in two decades.

42:33 Wow. First time I haven't been under direct government control with gun towers.

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44:50 Then I see a flower on a bush. But I haven't seen a flower in quite a while. So I look at the flower for a while and I think [clears throat] about the fragility of life and the unspeakable beauty that is at hand everywhere we turn. the glory glory of of the world and this simple living fragile creature. And after about 20 minutes of uh commuting that way, I wake up and go into the bus station and I'm fishing around for some quarters to call my family and u gee, no phone booths.

45:48 Oh [ __ ] Where did all the phone booths go? So I I had seen cell phones on movies on televisions, eight televisions hanging from the ceiling on 24 hours a day, blasting away. [clears throat] And I'd seen in movies people pick up these devices, so I knew what they looked like. Um, and I see this young brother all gleamed up talking on his cell phone. [clears throat]

46:24 So, you learn to be very polite in prison so you don't get killed. I walk [clears throat] over and said, um, he looks up at me like, what's this tall guy want? And I go, excuse me, sir. I just got out of prison. Could I give you $5 to call my family? And he sort of takes me in and he's cool [clears throat] and he says, "Um, forget the $5, man. Here, call him yourself."

47:01 And he gives me this device, [clears throat] a device. And I go, "Thanks. How does it work?

47:18 And he's looking at me quizzically and I I hand it back to him and go, "Um, [clears throat] man, I mean, I've been away a really long time. Could you call him?" And so he went beep beep beep beep. And there we were. And that was the my first love affair with a cell phone.

47:42 Wow, that is so cool. Yeah. Now I have to remind myself not to doom scroll on Insta every day.

47:49 Yeah. I mean this this I'm you know I think Tim Liry or was it McKinnon? One of them maybe it was both. They maybe it was Liry. They were saying the internet was was a psychedelic that this thing that's coming is this a new psychedelic.

48:09 Jim saw it early. He thought computers were the absolute next revolution and he was absolutely correct about that.

48:14 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, he he called it. And I I just sometimes, you know, e even being steeped in it, not having all that time to not be around constant communication, it seems a bit dystopian when you're walking down the street and everyone's staring into their rectangles. And [clears throat]

48:36 absolutely. When I went away, there were no smartphones. I had a Blackberry with no I'd never seen a video screen before. were just little blackberries and and buzzers for you know hip hip h messaging what have you and that was it.

48:51 Yeah. So now you see yeah a lot of people just simply staring at the screens. I can't disavow that. I realize it's sort of cutting into our previous face-toface discussions. Um but I I see it as such a treasure in terms of the information coming in. I I love the idea of the information flow that access the world's data instantly. So I I think it's good in that way. I don't see it as necessarily separating us.

49:25 See it as perhaps bringing us closer by making our meetings more efficient. You can have simultaneous conversations going on with four or five people. Uh um I see it as a more more of an ally than a detriment.

49:38 Great to hear. I don't I go back and forth on it myself. I I uh though I do recognize a vampire only goes where they're invited and you know whatever your algorithm is showing you is a reflection of what your interests happen to be. So you can't necessarily like blame social media companies for that. But I just want to go back to that beautiful prayer that you're inoning upon creating so much LSD versus the intent behind much of what we're encountering on these devices. The algorithms use BF Skinner's work intentionally to create these very addictive, sticky drugs. the these it's like and if you shift and this I just don't think we're here yet but I feel like we will be people I don't think recognize that this is a drug that we are taking in through uh different orififices you know you're not injecting it or putting it in your mouth but this is a drug it shifts consciousness changes mood states it

50:51 harmonizes definitely has this quality of harmonizing us, but the way it's harmonizing us seems to be quite divisive because the algorithm understands that people are just more interested in seeing chaos. This isn't a new story or anything like that. But I'm just saying if we look at this as a drug, I'm pretty sure the many of the people involved in where it's at right now, they're not saying beautiful prayers as they upload their

51:22 No, there's thousands of PhDs that get up every morning and uh specifically go to work to how do we make this stickier?

51:29 Yes. How do we keep people looking and scrolling and what have you, but I I [clears throat] maybe this is polyianaish about it, but um you know it really all whatever you're doing generally boils down to you're looking at people on Insta or the [clears throat] social media you are interacting with people looking at people talking to people and maybe be happening very rapidly you know blinding range of access to personalities and what have you as opposed to a long conversation with a friend as we're having today,

52:03 right? But I uh you know, it's like drowning in a deluge of dopamine induced by simply looking at people or interacting people. So I I it's I don't see that as necessarily dehumanizing.

52:17 I got to show you my Instagram reel sometime. You'll change your opinion. Okay.

52:24 For our audience, this, you know, this must be said for our audience. Um, [clears throat] so Duck and I were in the green room and oh goodness meow wolf

52:34 Yeah. a while back and he walks in this in his bearded uh matterly way this beautiful priest robe on. My goodness. What are we up to here when he But that was fine. But he had these three uh lavish um sisters backup singers with him. They're all,

52:56 you know, dancing skin tight sequins. This is all in the green room. I go, "What's going to go down?" And so we float out, [clears throat]

53:04 we float out to the um the platform. There are several hundred people there sort of dancing to EDM and I say a few words and this sort of thing. And then Dona gets up behind [clears throat] the the podium, the platform like a Southern Baptist evangelist and raises his arms and suddenly against the walls he projected these great big cartoonike projections and perfectly coordinated what he said. So his his histik, if you [clears throat] will, was to totally beautifully scripted to be wild and flamboyant. Meanwhile, the sisters are starting to gyate, you know, singing the mics and doing bobshop backgrounds. And he's there in his robe with this huge cartoons in the walls where he's channeling. Oh god, excuse me. In a shopping mall in Iowa and uh fabulous stuff. So, we all

54:01 Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, it was so cool to see you there and and you know Yeah. Well, that was sort of a that that idea sort of always interested me. I you know, uh this show I made for Netflix, The Midnight Gospel, is related to simul the simulation hypothesis and and sort of the um Jiren Laneir wrote a great book.

54:30 Yes. Jiren was the last husband of my first wife. what who gave who also gave Rick Donald his first MDMMA.

54:41 Small world. Well, he I I've never met him personally, but I love his work. And uh you know he he paints a picture of this sort of you know Skinner box this Skinner box possibility this this where technology sort of infiltrates the zeitgeist to the point that our view of reality is no longer reality but this very addictive sort of uh marionette that's making us all emotionally dance around and it's inescapable that and so uh you know obvious you you see where this stuff is going, you know. Um

55:18 I wouldn't be afraid of it, Duncan. You know, I you can't say we're being sucked into uh constantly attending to these devices all day long. I I I find it very empowering. I I like being able to reach out to friends very quickly, coordinate social life. Uh

55:36 I love I love I like the deluge of information rolling through us. It's extremely exciting. I I I don't I I know I'm coming across as some kind of like techn like some kind of L idea and and I [clears throat] but I'm not at all. I love it. I I'm thrilled by it, too. But I I uh you know, when you when you sort of I'm sorry, I just veer back to like John Lily's revelations that he had in that float tank, the communication with some kind of machine intelligence that was attempting to sort of infiltrate our planet. And

56:11 we're doing it more now with AI. You know, I'm on the AI models. You know, I have Pro and Ultra and Heavy.

56:18 They're incredible. I'm on them all day long from the time I wake up tonight. I find them [clears throat] like having a great ally.

56:26 Ah well listen we worry about it thinking better than than we and indeed it's already there. I think we already have AGI but

56:34 I agree. But but but but we can be afraid of it like this is going to take over the world but think of it as cars. We don't have the musculature to run more than four or five miles an hour, but uh you know

56:49 I don't I don't have the musculature to run if she wishes. Say that again. I'm sorry. I was cutting you off with a really dumb joke.

56:55 No, no, sorry. Same here. But but billions of people are are empowered by by machines already in terms of physical prowess.

57:05 You can drive 500 miles a day, maybe walk uh 20, right? No, I listen. You can be afraid of it. You can worship it. You can avoid it if if you want to try. It doesn't matter. It's what's happening. This is the direction everything is going in. And there's nothing your fear is going to do to stop it. And so to me though, it it's more it's just fascinating to prognosticate where it's going. and where it's going is obviously a we're merging with this

57:41 well technology it's us it's a reflection us that will be inside of us two years ago when I when GBT was on its relative infancy [clears throat]

57:52 um I had a draft a thousandword love letter uh if you will of uh two students that met in the library in this sort of thing sort of a geek love if you will and he did So it was kind of a working man's thousandword [clears throat] essay and then oh goodness a month later with a more advanced model it wrote the same piece but with the nuances that were so subtle

58:19 was like very good writing and I I got a little afraid [clears throat] thinking where will this thing be in a few years but now it's a few years uh hence and we have reasoning models of great power I don't think we should cower in the corner of thinking super intelligence is going to take over everything and eliminate us as a species or be a patron state. I think we should engage it fully, [clears throat] train it, dance with it, be friendly with it, and be friendly to us. I think it's the greatest advance uh I've seen in my lifetime scientifically, medically. And uh I have to I can't name the name, [clears throat] but I was with a um high official at Open AI the other day, the people that do chat GPT.

59:12 Yeah. and we were having dinner and and he he wanted to know about psychedelics and I I mentioned the prayer and then I said to him, it occurred to me. I said to him, you know, you folks at OpenAI and are extraordinarily powerful position. You are responsible perhaps for the future of our species which waits

59:43 now next few years presently. That's uh a responsibility that is incomprehensible but it is real. And here you are. And one day [clears throat] soon you're going to get a phone call saying AGI artificial general intelligence has manifested. It is real. It is live. It is growing. It is self-training. It is self-eing.

1:00:20 Yeah. It does not need us anymore to program to assist or to defeat it data. It is growing rapidly to super intelligence. It is the greatest confrontation of our species in history.

1:00:34 Yeah. And what are you going to do in that moment when you unleash an energy that you can never control

1:00:46 that will affect millions of lives that globe? What are you going to do? And I suggested that he may want to think about the same prayer.

1:00:58 Yeah. The same prayer. Because you can't control it. You can't guide it. It's out there in the world. You can only say, "May this be a benevolent force in the world. May it do no harm. Wow. That look I hope we never stop talking that you are just

1:01:33 Well, I'll be in Austin in two weeks. So, I'll see you in two I'll see you in two weeks.

1:01:38 I'll see you uh mid January. Ah, yeah. Great. Yeah. You got to meet our We You got to meet our new baby.

1:01:45 Your new baby. Go. That's right. Yeah. Oh, you are so awesome. Thank you so Nothing better than a new baby. What could be better? I mean, there we're talking about miracles and engineering, if you will, and consciousness, but there will never be any greater miracle than than uh than a new baby.

1:02:03 Nothing nothing more miraculous. Nothing more mysterious. Yeah, it's the most beautiful thing ever. But

1:02:11 absolutely. Well, you looked a little sleepy this morning. I guess that explains it.

1:02:17 Yeah, it does. But it's, [clears throat] you know, it's a beautiful experience and I, you know, and this just I couldn't think of anyone better to get to have a conversation with in the midst of having a being in the middle of hanging out with a new baby than you. Very old new babies.

1:02:40 I think he's what, 13 now. And what's that? Eel. Yeah. I'm trying to catch up. Um, thank you so much.

1:02:51 Is getting there. Have a fun little Elon story. So, I'm in Austin last month and you were out of town and uh my friend and I drove over to the great uh um plant, if you will,

1:03:04 uh huge facility for a Tesla. And uh yeah, it's on Sunday and no one's in the parking lot. We're just going over to pay our respects and admire this uh this grand scheme and all these able people doing these wonderful things. So

1:03:20 we sort of pull into the parking lot. We're admiring the building and suddenly zoom zoom cybert trucks appear. Zoom zoom security and cybert trucks [clears throat] and we say excuse me excuse me. We were just paying our respects and quietly did a U-turn and left. But uh they were very courteous and gentlemanly. But uh

1:03:44 Oh, I feel like you and Eli hit it off. The I've heard, you know, I know someone who got to see some of the robots in one of the factories and how wild that is to see,

1:03:55 you know, Charlie the chocolate factory, but it's not Oompa Loompas. It's these robots. I just finished the Isacson's biography of Elon who who I I do truly admire and uh same

1:04:09 but every hundred pages uh even though he has some unusual personal habits every hundred pages that go what a man

1:04:17 I know I know what a man I can't it's yeah HOW ARE WE MAD AT THIS GUY HE'S HOW CAN WE BE mad

1:04:25 trying to make us a galactic civilization people are pissed off our rockets Okay.

1:04:30 I'm I'm sorry. You don't get somebody making robots, Cybert trucks, and rockets who's like going to act normal. That's just you don't

1:04:38 Right. Agreed. He's a little different. And you know, I mean, yes. Uh what what do you

1:04:43 brood coming and probably more on the way, but more power to him. More power to the great thinkers. May his actions be benevolent.

1:04:50 Yes. Absolutely. And um look, I want to talk a little bit before we split. Uh, you've started a Patreon and can we talk about your podcast on there?

1:05:03 We c we we can. I I actually started not not my thing. Normally I I'm doing it my employer asked me to uh do uh some videos uh interviewing leading [clears throat] biotech figures for our our I work part time for advisor to investment fund as investment fund js.fund. he asked me to um to do these and I've certainly very much enjoyed it. So, uh I'm on Patreon at the Last Alchemist and I've done six so far and another 26 lined up uh next year, but it's been glorious. I interviewed um Jonathan Spor, the first one, the CEO of Gilgamesh, which is the great IANE analog fund firm. uh that was just sold to ABV for 1.2 billion.

1:05:58 Wow. So it's the largest psychedelic deal in history. Took an asset. That sort of thing. And I got Hamilton, a dear friend Hamilton.

1:06:08 He's awesome. And you are anytime another great minds. I can't compete with those people, but I'd love to listen. Any chance I get to have a conversation with you, I'll take it. Let's do it. Let's do it.

1:06:25 Let's do it. Well, you know what? When you come into town, if you want to record one here at the studio, I'm Maybe we could work it out.

1:06:31 That That'd be great. I'd love to just do I'd like to see the baby, frankly, and maybe street and have have some tea and

1:06:39 Okay, great. Great. And if you want to record your Patreon here, let's do it. And so much

1:06:46 Okay, beautiful. Thank you so much, Leonard. You're the best. That was incredible. Thank you.

1:06:51 Thank you, Duncan. Very well. Are we done? Yeah, that was about an hour. That's it. That was Leonard Pequard. Everybody do subscribe to his Patreon. It's the Last Alchemist podcast. Check out his book, The Rose of Paraclesis. And send him some love. He deserves it. Thank you all for listening. I'll see you soon with a conversation with Jack Kornfield. Thanks for tuning in.

Questions about this episode

What is discussed in "DTFH 728 Leonard Pickard"?

In order: 0:00 PB – Chiropractor (Dr. Bard, Albert Hoffman, Leonard Bquard; 50:00 Jiren Laneir; 1:00:00 Jack Kornfield, The Rose of Paraclesis.

What is mentioned in this Duncan Trussell Family Hour episode?

8 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including PB – Chiropractor (Dr. Bard, Leonard Bquard, Albert Hoffman, Jiren Laneir, The Rose of Paraclesis, Jack Kornfield. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "DTFH 728 Leonard Pickard"?

The episode runs 1 h 7 min; the transcript is about 9,486 words in 161 timestamped sections.

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