Alexander the Great's Egypt: Extra Context | Egyptian History

What is discussed, and when

1. 0:00 – 5:00: Alexander, Epic History, Kenneth W. Harl, Paul Cartage
2. 5:00 – 10:00: Alexander
3. 10:00 – 15:00: Alexander, Diodoki
4. 15:00 – 20:00: Alexander, Ferdinand Marcos
5. 20:00 – 25:00: Victorian horror
6. 25:00 – 28:00: Alexander

Notable quotes from "Alexander the Great's Egypt: Extra Context | Egyptian History"

• I'm the headwriter of Extra History, and today we're talking about Alexander the Great's Egypt. First of all, I want to say Extra Context is made possible by our patrons. History is a conversation and thank you for letting us have this.

  about Alexander · at 0:18

• World by Rachel Cer Kauer. Alexander the Great by Philip Freeman. Alexander the Great by Paul Cartage. And I actually went to the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York City…

  about Paul Cartage · at 1:03

• That it was Typhus that actually killed him, not po not of poison. As for how I know, Epic History's complete series on Alexander the Great actually gives us viewers an…

  about Epic History · at 4:21

• Series. I put this in the last episode too, but simplifying the ending map of the wars of the Diodoki leaves out Antigonus and his son co-ruler Demetrius and they are extremely…

  about Diodoki · at 13:28

• I'm from Kaneoh Hawaii and the Valley of the Temples which is the cemetery nearby there had the body of Ferdinand Marcos in a glass casket for a really long time like the…

  about Ferdinand Marcos · at 14:57

• And it's been a very interesting series to work on. next is My Choice. And My Choice was Victorian horror. So, we're going to be talking about how the tabloid press…

  about Victorian horror · at 24:41

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

• Kenneth W. Harl — Person · 1 mention · first at 0:54
  Reading for this week, Alexander the Great and the Macedonian Empire by Kenneth W. Harl. It's the great courses really good lecture series for understanding like the sweep of…
• Rachel Cer Kauer — Person · 1 mention · first at 1:03
  Understanding like the sweep of this period. Alexander at the end of the world by Rachel Cer Kauer. Alexander the Great by Philip Freeman. Alexander the Great by Paul Cartage.…
• Philip Freeman — Person · 1 mention · first at 1:06
  Period. Alexander at the end of the world by Rachel Cer Kauer. Alexander the Great by Philip Freeman. Alexander the Great by Paul Cartage. And I actually went to the…
• Paul Cartage — Person · 1 mention · first at 1:07
• Ferdinand Marcos — Person · 1 mention · first at 15:02
• Cleopatra VII — Person · 1 mention

Companies & orgs

• Epic History — Company · 1 mention · first at 4:25

Products & tech

• Alexander — Product · 16 mentions · first at 0:20

Concepts & topics

• Diodoki — Concept · 1 mention · first at 13:32
• Victorian horror — Concept · 1 mention · first at 24:47

Full transcript with timestamps

0:06 Hey there, extra historians. Welcome to Extra Context, the part of the show where we tell you all the things we left out, the stuff we got wrong, and how we can cure a king's missing eye with the wonders of modern animation. I'm Rob. I'm the headwriter of Extra History, and today we're talking about Alexander the Great's Egypt. First of all, I want to say Extra Context is made possible by our patrons. History is a conversation and thank you for letting us have this one. If you want to be part of our Patreon, you can get episodes early. You can vote and suggest future topics and uh yeah, also you can be part of our Discord, talk to other extra historians.

0:43 We're part of the Nebula First program. If you want to start watching our series on tyrants, the first one should be already up there. And recommended reading for this week, Alexander the Great and the Macedonian Empire by Kenneth W. Harl. It's uh the great courses really good lecture series for understanding like the sweep of this period. Uh Alexander at the end of the world by Rachel Cer Kauer. Alexander the Great by Philip Freeman. Alexander the Great by Paul Cartage. And I actually went to the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York City and looked at their tomic Egypt exhibit and used that partially as the image references for this and and the things about uh Egyptian art going through uh changes as a result of the Tomies which did also by the way happen with the Persians. There were some uh there is some statuary where Egyptians are wearing like longer Persian uh wraps and jewelry and things

1:40 like that. Just a couple of things. Someone said, "Fun fact, Alexander's reign was much closer to the modern day than to the construction of the pyramids." I've actually thought about doing a short series that talks about this kind of thing because I think it's always just sort of an interesting thing to to think about. Someone asked very nicely, "Hi, I just heard about the fire in Hong Kong. Is Rob and his family okay?" Yes. Um, we're fine. That's a completely different area of Hong Kong than we live in. Um, it's far enough that we would not have known that it was going on if not for media reports. Um, but it's an absolutely terrible tragedy, the fire and typo. It's awful. The We've lived here almost 13 years and it's by far the worst thing that's happened in Hong Kong since we've been here. Um, it just uh utterly terrible and our hearts go out to the uh the victims. Episode one, a patron question from Bo Kerry.

2:34 Why do you keep calling the people of the Augmented Empire Persians rather than Iranians as they called themselves? You sound a lot like the biased and unreliable Greek and frankly Western sources when you say Persians were hostile to Egyptian religion. When there's so much evidence to say that the Iranians are very tolerant of other religions, why would you say that? It's pretty clear that particularly Egyptian temples were ransacked when uh Persia took it over. Uh so that's that's definitely not in dispute. And uh there are there's there's other evidence and accounts of uh temples being taken down, of books being burned and things like that. You know, sometimes when an empire is more religiously tolerant, that doesn't mean they're necessarily equally religiously tolerant. Uh, I mean even the Greeks, there were certain parts of the Egyptian religion that just really did not get on well with them. One of

3:28 them was being like statues with animal heads. Like Greeks just kind of considered that gross. Um, you know, animals don't have like that same kind of there's not quite as much of the respect for animals, right, in Greek and Roman religion. Um, so, uh, there's there's more a sense of like the human and the beastial as as that being very separate. Why did I use Persian Empire? Because that's what the sources I read used. And, you know, I'm not an expert in every historical period, particularly not the ancient world. I know a little bit more about Rome because I took Latin translation in college, but uh, I I have to lean on the the books that I read and I repeat the terms that they use. So, that that's why. Patron question from Gage Harsty. Uh, I think for the first episode when you all mentioned about Alexander the Great dying because of poison, I'm surprised you didn't mention that it was Typhus that actually killed

4:22 him, not po not of poison. As for how I know, Epic History's complete series on Alexander the Great actually gives us viewers an in-depth of the entirety of Alexander the Great's history. How Alexander died exactly is up to interpretation. Right. Um, we have some sources that list symptoms and people extrapolate that as being typhus. Personally, I believe it was some kind of disease, just a very fast acting disease. Um, however, at the time, people did suspect poison, and I thought that's important context because, you know, it's not unusual for a Macedonian king to die from assassination or even specifically from poison, right? Alexander's father had been killed. Um, so I think that goes to the mental state of the people who were involved in in breaking up Alexander's empire afterward that there is this sense that you just constantly have to watch your back and maybe Alexander himself was killed.

5:20 Personally, I don't think he was, but I wanted to get that sense of paranoia that they're all kind of looking for the knife that's coming at their back. Patron question from Chromic Acid. Alexander marched south. There's a carveout in the purple Egyptian territory is approximately Israelshaped. What's going on there? Um, so I there's two things. I think that this was meant to show um Gaza in the fortress of Gaza, but I think there was a some confusion between a map that we had slated for use later which was of a time um during the wars of the Daidoki that Salucas had taken that area and was holding it while there was like Tommy's territory around him. So that's that's why um I think that's how that happened. uh after looking at various image references I provided and the episode and things like that. Um so no we're not like doing a modern mark of of that. Uh YouTube question I think you

6:21 guys meant Pakistan but instead said wrote it in the animation Afghanistan. This is a confusion of historical terms and modern political boundaries terms right. Uh often in the sense of the ancient world when you talk about Afghanistan it's like a broad area. Um, and some of these terms have later been used to name specific countries, which makes everything very confusing, right? So, uh, it's something that I trip over myself all the time, right? Uh, I still really want to do that episode I talk to talk about every once in a while um on these commentaries about how the way that we look at things as a modern as modern readers and as a modern viewer can sort of mess with our interpretation uh of how we think of the ancient world because we look at a map and we see borders. It's like there aren't really borders, right? It's it's not hard like that. It's like zones of influence.

7:17 people don't talk about countries specifically. They'll kind of talk about areas. Um so pe people used to generalize Afghanistan as like a much larger area in that region. Um so usually if we mean something like Pakistan, we'll say modern Pakistan or in modern Texas or whatever. Um but yeah, it's it's confusing. I get tripped up by it myself all the time. Um, and then you have weird things like we talk about the Byzantine Empire. You know, people in the Byzantine Empire wouldn't say that. They'd say, "No, we're we're Romans." Um, so it's it can get very confusing. Uh, I believe it was father Philip that claimed heritage from Heracles, while his mother claimed heritage from Achilles and also began whispering that Alexander was Zeus's son, not Philip's son. Uh, the oracle would then confirm this later in Egypt.

8:13 So many accounts of Alexander get a little bit complicated because there's sort of they don't always match up and also there have been certain things that have kind of been extrapolated from them and one of them is exactly who was telling him what about what divine heritage. Um there can be a little crosswires here. A lot of uh historians will say this was largely his mother Olympus, right? So, um, uh, we talked about that, but yeah, he had a general sense that he had sort of divine, uh, divine ancestry in some way.

8:53 Uh, and people talk back and forth about exactly what that means. Um, you know, the the separation between like God and man was like not so uh not so definite in the ancient world, right? Um, so it it when we think about it as modern people who even if you're not specifically Christian, um, because of culture, our minds tend to really get into that like God and man being a separate thing. Um, but in the ancient world, there was like a little more blending possible. Anyway, uh, the the lecture series, the great courses lecture series I mentioned has a really good uh section on this that I I thought was really really cool.

9:35 It was Alexander the first of Macedon 150 years before Philip who had to prove his Greekness to compete in the games. By the time Philip II, Macedonians could compete in the Olympics without questioning. You are correct. But that's what I wanted to express was this larger point that Macedonia is like a little bit between. Right. And there are elements of it that are Greek and there are elements of it that are like a little more Persian influenced and a little more eastern influenced. Um, and that it's a little bit of like an edge case. I think I've mentioned before um that in the 19th century like you get this parlor game of discussing whether Russia is one of the like Asiatic Despots or it's a modern European nation. And there's a little bit of that going on with Macedonia where like other Greek states are like we kind of trust them, kind of don't.

10:29 they're Greek, but they're kind of not Greek, you know. So, it's it's uh yeah, it's it's very interesting. Again, kind of it's sort of an open area for debate of like how Greek was Macedonia or was Macedonia Greek when it needed to be Greek and not Greek when it was advantageous not to be Greek. Um, which I think is a really interesting uh way to look at it. um that you can you can sort of play both sides a little bit. Egypt was first conquered by Persia two centuries before this, but Egypt did manage to throw off Persian dominance and reestablish native rule for over 60 years in the 4th century BC. Yes. So you you talk about like the the first uh Persian satropy. This is the second or Egyptian satropy. The second Egyptian satropy. Episode two, patron question from Bo Kerry. Was the governor of Egypt that Tommy murdered really that corrupt or was it all propaganda? The books I read did portray him as corrupt. And one

11:27 of the uh episodes that demonstrates this is the fact that he's amassed so much money that Toml can just take it as essentially his royal treasury uh when he comes in. Patron question. Brian B. Why did the first two episodes of the series focus entirely on Alexander the Great and Tommy Soder? You could even say the all three episodes and not on the TMIC dynasty when there are more than 20 rulers and co-rulers during the dynasty. I know that you actually covered Cleopatra the 7th in a previous series, but I was surprised to not see the dynasty as a whole get more attention. Well, that's sort of why. So, when I started getting into this, I I expected to do more of like a Majapahed thing or um Inca Empire or like history of Buddhism or something like that where we would have this big sweep but then we would zoom in on individual rulers that really stood out. However, when I started getting into it, I was like,

12:20 man, there's a lot of this, but also a lot of the individual rulers that we go into would be like Alexander himself, Tommy Soder, Cleopatra II, her father, who we kind of did in the Cleopatra series. And I was like, you know what? I think there's so much of this. I don't think I can do the whole sweep of it. We've already used some of the those bits that we would I think we should just focus on the establishment of the dynasty. So that's what we did. Uh patron question from Steven Watts. Is there any truth to the story that Venetian visitors to Alexandria took the body of Alexander back to Venice, mistaking his tomb for the uh and body for that of St. Mark? No, I I really don't think so. The tomb, nobody really knows what happened to the tomb of Alexander. It just seems to kind of disappear from history, but it was [clears throat] well gone u by then. Uh, I so I I would I would be very doubtful.

13:12 If I had a dollar for every time an Extra History episode involved an army getting eaten by crocodiles in the Nile, I would have $2. But it's weird it happened twice. I forgot about this to be perfectly honest. Uh, but only the reason I forgot about it is only a few of Napoleon's soldiers were eaten, whereas there's a lot of them in this series. I put this in the last episode too, but simplifying the ending map of the wars of the Diodoki leaves out Antigonus and his son co-ruler Demetrius and they are extremely important, even including Tommy at this time before they lose it all. Yeah, we simplified a lot, but partially because when I get into an episode and I realize there's a huge part of it that's going to be very difficult to integrate into the larger story, but there's such good stuff there. A lot of times what I'll do is I'll essentially write around it. I will take anything that I absolutely need to

14:00 be talking about at that time and I'll sort of do a puzzle piece carve out and say like, "All right, that's a future series. This is a great idea for something we can do in the future." And I want that to be able to like slot together, right? Um later on. So, it's a it's a way I will sometimes future proof is to kind of just be like, "Okay, we can't get to this right now, but this is such a great story. Maybe we can do this in the future as a full series." So put that in mind if you want to think about requesting that at some point. Uh if someone today hijacked a head of state's corpse for political power, we'd call it a crime. So why do we romanticize it in ancient history? I don't think we really romanticized it. We just talked about what happened and how people saw it at the time. H however, you know, people do hijack corpses, right? There's the the relic trade in Europe. Um there's, you

14:51 know, St. St. Marks like famously. And uh but I just want to talk about like I'm from Kaneoh Hawaii and the Valley of the Temples which is the cemetery nearby there had the body of Ferdinand Marcos in a glass casket for a really long time like the entire almost the entire time I was growing up there I think. um and is now just because like he he was in exile in Honolulu and he died and they kind of embalmed him and put him in this glass coffin uh in a mausoleum there and it was just awaiting the day that it was politically possible for his body to be returned to the Philippines, which it now has. Um but you know, you do get these things, weird things with like head of state corpses. you know, you you can go see Lenin and uh I I don't know if they do to the pass by of Mao anymore, but uh I went to the Mausoleium of Ho Chi Min in Hanoi, but I I'm not sure they actually show you him physically anymore. It's like a big

15:55 museum. It's you wouldn't know it was a tomb unless, you know, when you're inside it, it's it's mostly a museum. It's highly likely the Christians destroyed Alexander's tomb because it simply vanishes from history at exactly the point Christians gained power and it was a massive complex. His tomb had been a holy pilgrim site for centuries by that point in Alexandria. Yeah, it might have been intentionally stood destroyed. It might have been reused. I personally think um just looking at some other major sites like anchor and things like that, I think probably it started to break down considering like the amount of foot traffic that was going. I mean, people, it was a major like pilgrimage and tourism center, right? And especially back then, like you just have people graffiti and pull off pieces of buildings and reuse blocks and there could be much natural decay that happens and then like it ends up getting reused

16:43 or destroyed or whatever. Um, if you want to hear more about this, our Hipatia series uh talks about the uh destruction of a lot of these sites associated with uh uh Greek and Roman religion in Alexandria. Episode three, patron question from Bo Carrey. Why did Alexander IVths and Roxanna's supposed guardian murder them? Yeah, I'm gonna start off with that. It's sort of a Richard III, you know, Princes in the Tower situation. You can get power by being the guardian of a minor uh who's supposed to come into the throne, but the older they get, the more plots surround them, the more they become a threat to your power, and the more you will want to secure your power by just killing them off. Um, so I think that's that's basically that's basically it. Again, much more complicated. We if we ever do a Daidoki series, we can we can go into that. Also, the cast system and the Greek minority ruling over the

17:37 Egyptian majority sounds a lot like the repressive systems you described in European colonies. Is that a coincidence or them simply taking similar action and steps to maintain control? I wouldn't compare toic Egypt to European colonies for a number of reasons. Um the main one is I'm I'm often hesitant except in very narrow uh ways to compare uh ancient world stuff to to early modern and modern world stuff. And the reason is you have different economic systems, you have different political systems, you have different methods of technology and information. And you know, one thing that for example is very different is the fact that the tollies are not in some distant country that they're extracting like the wealth and labor of Egypt to uh to pour it into their country. You'll see that in our Leopold or Leopold II tyrants one uh is very clear about that. They're kind of like sliding in and replacing Egyptian rel

18:37 elites, right? They are literally like counted in the number of dynasties, right? So, this is more of a William the Conqueror situation or something like that, you know, where where they're coming in and and taking over like the previous government. Um, I also wouldn't make that comparison because again the economic systems are so different from the ancient world to the early modern modern world. Um, and uh, you know, a lot of European colonies have a very heavy racial component, whereas race was just not thought of in the same way in the ancient world, right? Um, a lot of times it was by language and culture. So, you could become Greek, right? If you learned Greek, if you took on Greek customs, you would to a certain extent be counted as Greek. So, um, that's the that's the question as we go on is like how Egyptian how Greek are some of these people who are now like later couple generations down the line working in the

19:41 government because they might be what we would think of as ethnically Egyptian but they're like culturally and linguistically Greek and by the standards of the Tomies like they're Greek and that becomes a difficult thing for historians because when they talk about like so and so is a Greek what does that mean, right? Um, so it's uh it it it gets very fuzzy. It's it's very interesting. Patron question from Faba Dubba. So, were the incestuous marriages actually necessary to woo the native Egyptian public or was that an assumption based on stereotypes of the Egyptians and their culture held by the Mastonian ru ruling class? This is a really good question. I think the tolamese were very successful at appearing in public to be restoring the traditions of Egypt, particularly those around religion. Of course, they're also changing it, right? Um there were a lot of questions surrounding these sibling

20:36 marriages, things that we will probably never have answers to. um including like whether all of the children from them were actually the biological children of these two people because you do a couple of generations of sibling marriage like that and it's just not it's just not tenable like it's not going to work right. So there has been some suggestion that there's some strategic looking the other way on this and and maybe some of these children are not the the biological children of both. Um but they are treated like it in a sort of pragmatic sense cuz there's there's an understanding that if you you know if you have that much incest it's it's like the it's even worse than half right YouTube question. This is a response to episode 3 of this now on Nebula. Great series. I'm going to summarize this.

21:31 It's about our pronunciation in uh Greek style. We kind of end up in a rock and hard place sometimes where if we pronounce something uh like Bernice in English, people will say like, you know, that it's pronounced a different way in Greek. If we try the Greek, then maybe someone doesn't like how we pronounce something in Greek. Uh we tried to do more more Greek pronunciations uh in this one uh uh and there was some critique on that but that that's basically it's basically why if we do one or the other there's going to be an issue with it for for someone. Um there's no Demetrian Empire because the dynasty that Demetrius was part of was called the Antigon dynasty named after his father Antigonus the first the oneeyed. Yeah, it's a bit of rhetorical flourish and he's a big figure, but my point is that you don't hear him spoken of kind of casually in the same way you talk about the Tamanic dynasty or the

22:26 Seucid Empire or something like that. Um there are these names that carry down from history that have a certain immortality that even if you don't specifically know that there's a guy named Tomlamy, you've heard of like the tomic tomic Egypt or something like that or uh you might not know as Salucas but you're a Seucid [clears throat] Empire right um so he I don't know if he had founded a bigger kingdom and and become a bigger figure maybe there there would be like a Demetrian empire but uh you know he he's not it's not like he was knocked out and became a nobody. Right?

23:00 Small corrections. Lucas was not almost king of Asia Minor. He was the satre of Babylonia who had been deposed by Antiggonus at the time and sought refuge and employment in Tomy's court. Yes. Again, we're simplifying and leaving a bit of the story open for if we ever go back to it. For the record, the antigen cause was permanently crippled after Ipsis in 301, not Gaza, and it was crushed by Salucas's elephants and Demetrius's overconfidence. had Gaza salute uh Salucas was little more than a supplicant serving Tommy in exchange for promises of aid in retaking Mesopotamia.

23:28 Yeah, I I think you could argue that for sure. Um as as for what is the what is the pivotal pivotal battle? Um I think for Tommy that was the pivot pivotal battle, right? Tomli Soder did take the field after Gaza. He took Gaza, Damascus, and failed Ty and Sidon in 301 BC. From what I understand, even if he was present, he was not necessarily in command of these battles. Um, and there's some debate about whether he was there personally. Um, just my understanding could be wrong. I'm just telling you where I was coming from when I wrote it. However, something I appreciate about um, Tommy is he seems to have had a uh, understanding that he's kind of a middling commander. He's okay and he just says like, I'm going to let other people handle this. I think that is an underrated character trait in leaders. Coming up on Extra History, an anthology on historical tyrants, Leopold II, King Herod, Chini Hong, and Richard

24:22 III. This is a really interesting series. It's not necessarily like a a doing this each person's whole life. It's more contrasting and comparing their leadership styles. They all are sort of tyrants in unique ways with unique lessons to draw. Um, and it's been a very interesting series to work on. Um, next is My Choice. And My Choice was Victorian horror. So, we're going to be talking about how the tabloid press, newspapers, penny dreadfuls create some of the pop culture that we know today, from true crime to sort of, uh, tabloid sensationalist uh almost supernatural journalism. We'll look at Springh Hill Jack. Um, and then also, uh, Vanney the Vampire and how we have this this big pop culture and cultural tradition that comes out of this kind of dirty, uh, press operation that was going on in the Victorian era. [snorts] Uh, and next we're voting on second chances. So, this is going to be a list

25:28 of episodes that almost made it through uh, through various votes over the past year or two, and uh, they get a second shot. Let's do an extra history movie club and talk about Ridley Scott's Alexander. I have not seen it. Apparently, there is a director's cut, which is considered to be much better. Um, it took a lot of heat when it came out in particular. Um, though some historians have also gone back and said like the battle sequences in this are are like some of the best ancient battle um most correct ancient battle sequences. Um, I want to talk about though Anthony Hopkins as Tommy uh who's kind of doing the frame story by writing his history uh of Alexander. Tommy actually did this as we mentioned in the series. Um, you know, he kind of in his retirement writes a history of Alexander's campaigns and this is partially him kind of like setting the record straight and making himself look

26:21 good, making his rivals look bad, as almost every history in this era was. I I think this also goes to his character in that he [snorts] is looking towards legacy. He's looking towards the long term. And I what I appreciate about Tommy, I don't think he's necessarily like the best person, right? But what I think uh is often underrated in a leader is like introspection and understanding what you're not good at and understanding how you're going to be seen. Um, and I I think it's very interesting that he's taking this kind of preemptive uh attempt to shape his legacy. Um, and it's considered a fairly good account.

27:06 So, it's lost, by the way. So, we do not have that, but it's been there's been large chunks quoted in other work and we still have that. Um, so I think that's just a really interesting uh interesting thing. And so next time you can you watch Alexander or even just I don't know think about the movie while looking at the poster. It's mostly what I've done since the movie has come out in theaters. That was the last time I saw it. Um you know think about Tommy sitting there like kind of telling the story uh amid the kingdom he has created out of the the ruins of the empire that has broken apart. Thanks a lot. See you next time. The largest legendary thanks to Zeliads Architectures Thomas Tate, Lotus Wolf, Joseph Bla, Hunter Z, Frizzo Van Santin, Dominic Valenciana, and Angela Valenciana for being legendary patrons.

27:55 Thank you all a million.

Questions about this episode

What is discussed in "Alexander the Great's Egypt: Extra Context | Egyptian History"?

In order: 0:00 Alexander, Epic History, Kenneth W. Harl, Paul Cartage; 5:00 Alexander; 10:00 Alexander, Diodoki; 15:00 Alexander, Ferdinand Marcos; 20:00 Victorian horror; 25:00 Alexander.

What is mentioned in this Extra History episode?

10 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Alexander, Kenneth W. Harl, Rachel Cer Kauer, Philip Freeman, Paul Cartage, Epic History. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "Alexander the Great's Egypt: Extra Context | Egyptian History"?

The episode runs 28 min; the transcript is about 4,974 words in 33 timestamped sections.

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