For 'Vogue' Titan André Leon Talley, Fashion Was A 'Gateway To The World' (2018 interview)

What this episode is about

André Leon Talley reflects on his journey in the fashion industry, highlighting how the world of fashion served as a transformative escape from his childhood in segregated North Carolina. His experiences at Vogue, mentorship from industry icons, and his unique personal style reveal the profound impact of fashion on his identity and worldview.

Key takeaways

• From Durham to Vogue, Andre Leon Talley's journey proves that true escape can be found in glossy pages.
• Even a young fashionista can find elegance in simplicity—like a modest home bursting with love and creativity.
• Talley's early admiration for Vogue highlights how fashion intertwines with literature and art, shaping cultural narratives.
• In a world of bullying, Talley's vibrant clothing stood as armor—asserting identity amid challenges of conformity.
• The scent of vanilla and lemon pound cake: proof that the heart of fashion is also rooted in cherished memories.

Who speaks in this episode?

• Terry Gross (Host) · 10 min speaking
• André Leon Talley (Guest) · 23 min speaking

What is discussed, and when

1. 0:00 – 5:00: The Gospel According to Andre, Brown University, Richard Avedon
2. 5:00 – 10:00: Rhode Island School of Design, Brown University
3. 30:00 – 32:34: The Gospel According to Andre

Notable quotes from "For 'Vogue' Titan André Leon Talley, Fashion Was A 'Gateway To The World' (2018 interview)"

• This is Fresh Air. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, Andre Leon Thally, is famous in the fashion world and beyond. He spent much of his career at Vogue magazine, becoming the fashion…

  about Andre Leon Talley · at 0:00

• Vogue magazine. Reading Vogue was considered a most unusual preoccupation for a 9-year-old boy. After getting a scholarship to Brown University and a master's degree in French…

  about Brown University · at 0:52

• Nurf's was nude photographed by Richard Avdon. All of this was just very exciting to me and it was a world that I internalized and I kept to myself as a young man because no one was interested.

  about Richard Avedon · at 3:39

• And I got to Brown and the world opened up. The world of exposure, the world of literature. I discovered even more the great poets, Bojilair, Rambo. I discovered the beautiful paintings of Ugene Dequa. I discovered Manet. I.

  about Rhode Island School of Design · at 8:31

• Recently, a friend that I lost contact with and I recently found out where he lived and his name is Barry Parker and he lives in Ghana, North Carolina.

  about Boone, North Carolina · at 26:11

• Baptist and I spent a lot of time designing it. I spent a great deal of time and Dr. Buts flew in and gave the eulogy for Calvin Buts Calvin Obuts the third. I flew him in and…

  about Calvin Butts · at 29:09

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

• Andre Leon Talley — Person · Main guest · 2 mentions
  Primary interview subject reflecting on his life and career in fashion media (Vogue, Interview) and the documentary about him.
• Diana Vreeland — Person · Referenced mentor / influential editor · 2 mentions
  Presented as Talley’s formative influence via Vogue and later as a mentor who endorsed him professionally and shaped his editorial ideals.
  I was mentored by former Vogue editor Diana Vreeland.
• Alma Rutledge — Person · Referenced family member (Talley’s mother) · 2 mentions
  Mentioned to explain Talley’s family background and a personal story illustrating emotional distance and lack of understanding of his style/identity.
  Her name was Alma Rutledge and she died in 2015.
• Calvin Butts — Person · Referenced clergy figure (funeral eulogist) · 2 mentions
  Cited as the prominent minister Talley flew in to deliver the eulogy at his mother’s funeral, underscoring Talley’s church ties and respect for ceremony.
• Richard Avedon — Person · Referenced photographer · 1 mention · first at 3:39
  Appears as an example of the high-fashion photographic canon Talley absorbed through Vogue, reinforcing the magazine’s role as his cultural education.

Books & papers

• The Gospel According to Andre — Book · 2 mentions · first at 0:33
  World's top designers. He has an outsized personality, too. Now in his mid60s, he looks back on his life in the new documentary, The Gospel According to Andre. He grew up in…

Companies & orgs

• Brown University — Company · 2 mentions · first at 0:56
• Rhode Island School of Design — Company · 2 mentions · first at 8:33

Places & events

• Boone, North Carolina — Place · 1 mention

Full transcript with timestamps

0:00 This is Fresh Air. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, Andre Leon Thally, is famous in the fashion world and beyond. He spent much of his career at Vogue magazine, becoming the fashion news director in 1983 and creative director in 1988. From 98 to 2013, he was editor at large. He's a large man who covers himself in capes and CF tans made for him by some of the world's top designers. He has an outsized personality, too. Now in his mid60s, he looks back on his life in the new documentary, The Gospel According to Andre. He grew up in Durham, North Carolina in the Jim Crow era. His grandmother, who raised him, was a maid for the men's dorms at Duke University.

0:45 The fashions he was exposed to as a child came largely from what people wore to church on Sundays until he discovered Vogue magazine. Reading Vogue was considered a most unusual preoccupation for a 9-year-old boy. After getting a scholarship to Brown University and a master's degree in French literature, he moved to New York, worked at Andy Warhol's magazine interview, and was mentored by former Vogue editor Diana Veland when she was a consultant to the costume institute at the Metropolitan Museum of Art. Andre Leantali, welcome to Fresh Air. Let's start with how were you introduced to the world of fashion?

1:24 Well, from an early age, I discovered fashion through the pages of Vogue. I went to the public library in Durham, North Carolina, and I was about 10 years old or maybe nine, and I discovered this magazine called Vogue. And in those days, it came out on the 1st and the 15th of every month. And uh the editor was Diana Veland. And this was my escape world. When I was a a young boy, I grew up in my grandmother's home in Durham, North Carolina, a modest home. Uh she was a maid at Duke University and it was just my grandmother and myself. She was an extraordinary woman. She was a frugal woman and she was she watched her budget. She had a bank account and we had a wonderful life because I never knew anything but love, unconditional love. So you're you're a nine-year-old boy and you're totally fascinated but by these fashions that adult women are wearing. So, what captivated you as a nine-year-old boy about the world of

2:23 Vogue? The world of Vogue meant more to me than what the women were wearing as models. The issues of Vogue captivated me not only before the images of the fashion spreads, but it was the magazine itself that turned me onto a world that I did not know, had not been exposed to. It was the world of literature, what was happening in the world of art, what was happening in the world of entertainment. Uh, it was my gateway to the world outside of Durham, North Carolina. It wasn't just the fashions. Of course, I love the fashions. I love the beautiful images and I related so much to the images and then the written words, the captions, the articles. So, I was living through Vogue as an escape patch, but reading every single page, loving every single detail. I mean, they had a men's column uh called Men in Vogue, and that was very fascinating to me. Then Maxine de Laales had a cooking column that was

3:17 fascinating to me. Then of course the main spreads uh they were all orchestrated by the great editor Diana Veland and they were basically built on her fantasy but she just gave me the world. I discovered Tru and Capot. I discovered the great uh ballerinas from the Bolshoy uh who defected to the west. I discovered Nurf and Avdon photos. Nurf's was nude photographed by Richard Avdon. All of this was just very exciting to me and it was a world that I internalized and I kept to myself as a young man because no one was interested in Vogue or fashion other than I. And I was ripping pages out of Vogue, putting the pictures up on my wall in my room with thumbtacks and I just had a room wallpapered from head to ceiling, floor to ceiling with images from Vogue. So, just to set the scene, while you're entering the world of Vogue and very much wanting to live in that world of fashion and literature and and music and

4:15 art, art. Yeah. So, describe the actual house you were living in. My my grandmother's house was very modest. It was a house of four rooms, a kitchen, living room, uh two bedrooms, and one bath. And we did not have central heating. I remember we had coal heating when I was very young. And then we converted to gas heating. We had a gas stove in the front bedroom where I slept and then we had a gas stove in the kitchen which heated up my grandmother's bedroom. But this house was a house of immaculate cleanliness. My grandmother was a great great housekeeper. She gave me the chores of scrubbing the front porch, scrubbing the floors. I had to scrub the floors once a week. I learned to scrub the floors. I also learned to polish the woodwork in the living room with Johnson's paste wax, CRA paste wax.

5:12 That was hard to get the floor to shine. And I did this as a young man. And all the time my grandmother was going to work to be a maid. She'd come home at 3:00 every afternoon, make supper. We sit down and look at the one little TV we had. My father had bought the TV for me from Washington DC. We had a black and white television. And um we I remember in the house the stove was a very great memory for me in the kitchen because of the smells from the kitchen were wonderful. I remember my the grandmother making wonderful lemon pound cakes and the smell of vanilla extract McCormix vanilla extract. Yes. The color of the vanilla extract and the smell was amazing. Still lingers in my memory.

5:56 So um were you bullied when you were in high school? Of course I was bullied. I was bullied and beaten up and everything. What was your defense? I would get on the school bus and I would say something and and they would just pounce on me because also I had beautiful clothes. I didn't have a lot of clothes, but my grandmother and my father would put me in the best clothes they could afford. And I had beautiful sweaters and trousers and beautiful penny loafers and quality shoes. And I didn't show off. I wasn't a showoff. I wasn't showing off. But I would just get on the school bus and I was tall and skinny and they just would beat me up.

6:28 So, was there a way you could defend yourself? I only defended myself through silence and not being a disruptor. I I I didn't fight back. I didn't know how to fight back and I didn't know how to articulate this to my grandmother or anyone. The the boys were very nasty to me. Um I remember once I built a snowman, it was school that was out because of the snow and it was a beautiful snowman in my yard. And this Reginald Hinton, he's he's dead now. He came and this into the yard and destroyed the snowman once it was completely built. You know, he just crushed it. Another time my friends, they were cranky and naughty. Bruce, my best friend, built a a ditch and covered the ditch over with grass and I had on my best cowboy outfit I'd gotten for Christmas. I had on a very beautiful cowboy outfit my grandmother had gotten me for me. And I put it on and I was running around in someone's backyard and

7:22 Bruce I was supposed to chase Bruce and Bruce ran in the direction of this covered ditch and I fell in the ditch and I tore a hole in the trousers of my cowboy outfit and I never put it on again. But then Bruce became my best friend. I think Bruce was the only man, the only young guy that was really a close friend. He really and my father liked Bruce and I liked Bruce and he's in a documentary. Okay. Wow. So, um, I want to kind of collapse a period of your life here. So, you move collapse it, darling. There you go. So, so after you graduate high school, you go to college. Then you you move to uh Rhode Island to go to Brown University for your masters, your undergraduate and master's degree. Uh, both degree in French literature. And I tell you, when I went to Brown and won that scholarship, the world opened. When I got on the train, I went to Brown on a train from from Durham, Raleigh Durham.

8:15 When I took the train, my uncle went with me. He he rode with me to Philadelphia. I had all these boxes on the train. I had huge boxes and things I was taking to Brown. It was the first time ever being away from home. So, I went to Brown alone. I went to the campus alone. I navigated my way alone. And I got to Brown and the world opened up. The world of exposure, the world of literature. I discovered even more the great poets, Bojilair, Rambo. I discovered the beautiful paintings of Ugene Dequa. I discovered Manet. I discovered the great worlds of art things music had not been classical music had not been a part of my upbringing gospel music and church music and in the world of Brown I discovered beautiful classical music piano music shopan the Clara Schulman things like this were really new to me and I was so curious about everything and the people were so sophisticated at Brown and it rz the Rhode Island School

9:07 of Design so I just had the world open up to me in just ways that had never been open to me before you know what I realized you were one the few guests I've had who talks even faster than I do. I'm talking fast, but I'm loving it. I hope you understand it. I absolutely understand and I'm quite enjoying it. So, you you get to New York after graduating from Brown. And you'd always wanted to meet uh Andy Warhol and the people who he helped make famous. And you not only got to meet them, you got to work at his magazine, Interview Magazine. Yes. which I should say parathetically just filed for bankruptcy and closed enclosed. Yeah. So defolded.

9:47 So, um, when you were there and got to see all of the like warhole superstars and everything, what made the biggest impression on you in terms of your own life, in terms of your own personal and professional identity, cuz you were, you know, you were in your early 20s, I imagine, at the time, and it's a very formative period when you're still, you know, shaping who you are and figuring out who you want to be. And you're looking at all these people who kind of remade themselves, who transformed themselves into something else. I loved it. I love the world. Now, the people that I met through Warhol were the people that I always wanted to know. They were not bullies. They did not judge you. There was unconditional admiration if not love. People were free. People made their choices. People were different. You know, some people perhaps uh had better clothes than others, but everyone was noted for their

10:41 own worth, their own gifts. And I think that's why I felt so good because I felt at home. I felt that I was part of a special club at Andy Warhol's Interview magazine. And they embraced me. And there was no criticism of me uh as it would have been at home um in Durham, North Carolina. You know, I was brought up in a very strict, modest home, but my nucleus, the nucleus of my family was church. So, being a black man, brought up in the African-American Missionary Baptist church culture meant that I had certain rules and certain ways to deport myself through clothes and not only through the through my actions or attitudes about life. But when I got to meet Andy Warhol and people were walking around in jeans and blazers and sometimes Reev go and sometimes not Reeve go the world came through the doors of the factory in Andy Warhol interview was the gate the gateway to the world for me. Well another thing

11:36 about the Andy Warhol crowd is that there was a lot of uh gender and sexual fluidity. Gender and sexual fluidity but it wasn't rampant and it wasn't overt. People went into the office and there was a department about going into the factory. You had a certain culture of the office and the factory which was very correct, very traditional yet very relaxed and casual. There were all kinds of people. There were lesbians, there were gays, there were straight, there were drag queens, there were artists, but everyone was equal. So, everyone mattered. And no matter who you were, it mattered. You mattered because you had individual gifts and talents. And that's what Andy admired. Now, there wasn't a lot of sexuality going on. I did not see people having sex rampidly at work or taking drugs because it wasn't that atmosphere when I got to the factory. It was long after Andy had an assassination attempt. So, the chain rules changed.

12:30 So, people were chosen for their seriousness and chosen for their possibilities to become who they wanted to be. And I was allowed to become who I wanted to be at the factory and with Andy Warhol. Right. So eventually you get to Vogue. You were a man at Vogue. You were also an African-American man at Vogue. So I'm sure you you stood out. Did you feel like you were with the people or did you feel like you were separate? I felt that I was on top of the world. I felt that I was with the best people. After all, Van Veland had endorsed me. The full endorsement. It was like if you had a political endorsement. It was the full endorsement of Veland and Andy Wall who were for me the king and queen of New York. The empress of fashion had endorsed me. I had proven to her I had assignments and challenges she gave me for certain installations in her shows and I had proven to her my worth. I never feared

13:26 anything. I never doubted myself once. I am a deeply insecure person for many reasons. I never showed my insecurity. I just rose to the occasion. I stood up straight and tall like a tall tall sunflower and I just radiated the light and the the beauty of my mind in relationship to the world of fashion. So at Vogue you eventually became in 1988 creative director. What is the job of the creative director? Well that is a very gilded title but you know in this guiltedged hell it's goldplated hell according to Tennessee Williams the from Sweet Bird views. You know, I knew the hell, the guilt edged hell I was going to. The creative director is the person that's there to buttress the editor-inchief. And it's sort of like a vice president, you know what I mean? A very high position, but there's the president and the vice president. And he's there or she is there to support the role and the policies and the vision

14:22 of the editor-inchief. there to give assignments, there to give ideas, to create ideas for the fashion pages and come up with ideas for shoots. Maybe not always received, but you just had to talk a lot. You had to talk a lot and be there all the time. What are some of the You had to go to lunch too with very important people. And what was the point of Bill Oscar Lorenta? What was the point of lunch? Lunch. You make network social networking with Bill Blast and Oscar Dorrento. Why was it important to social network with them? What did you need from them? They were top designers in New York and you had to have a relationship, establish a relationship with Vogue so that Harpers Vizar wouldn't get that advertising. Oh, I see. Cuz they needed you. I mean, but you needed them for the advertising. But that but that leads to a question. Um, in the fashion world, I'm often really confused in fashion magazines about

15:12 where the line is between advertising and editorial. Well, it's more blurred today than ever. Before, when we were working in fashion, they were not blurred. The advertising department was separate from the Vogue department. And this is why Veland was great because in her decade of being editor-inchief, she never gave a whit about what the advertisers said. She invented what she wanted as a fashion spread. She invented the fashion spreads that were fabulous cinematic based on famous films. I remember when she did a whole spread of clothes by Queen Christina, Greta Garbo's great film on Verushka. And there she had the designers like Oscar and Bill make costumes or evening clothes that were inspired by Queen Christina. Now that was a very very definite line between the advertising and the editorial. Now the lines are blurred more and more because it's more and more difficult to get those pages

16:05 secured on an annual basis. So, it's less it's more of a strategy where the advertising has slowly ebbed its way into the fashion editorial department and they uh lean heavily on making sure that you get the right credits. Sometimes they say, "Well, we got to have this dress in because they've taken out six pages of advertising for the September issue." Now, that happens in every magazine. That Let me stop you there. So, they've taken out six pages and what are they asking you to put in the magazine? Well, the advertising department may come and say, "Well, please, you've got to put this particular designer in your editorial because you remember they've taken out six pages." Whereas, you might have five dresses from a man that didn't take out advertising. You might want to do five Alia dresses because his dresses are so great. But then the role of the editori advertising department is to stay on the

16:53 backs of the editorial department and to remind them well remember you have the advertising of Bill Blas and he's taken out six pages and you've got six allied addresses you want to run on these pages. We've got to honor Bill Blast for his advertising commitment. So you have to do either a feature on Bill Blast or showcase his his showcase his designs in in an essay that you might have included six dresses by Eliah. Were you comfortable with that blurring of the line between advertising and one is never comfortable with that blurring of the line but one has to live up to the responsibilities and demands of the job.

17:27 One is never comfortable one the luxury of true true editorial is very rare in any fashion magazine but one has to honor the commitment to create the dollar that pays your salary that gives you food to eat. Is fashion different because the advertising and It's very different. It's all It's all the same people like the people who you're writing about are the same people who are taking No, it's the content is different because the advertising is more demanding. The advertising is bigger. So they can demand uh I remember once Estee Lauder the late Esther Lauder was very upset because issue in the Vogue issue had come out in Christmas and they said there were three great queens of beauty empire and they were Helen Rubenstein Elizabeth Ardan and Balumbumber Picasso and Palumba Picasso at that time only had a lipstick and it was called my Mon Rouge and maybe she had a scent and Mrs.

18:25 Slaughter called up to the heads of Continent said all my advertising will be removed not only from Vogue but all the other magazines because she was an empire. Esther was an empire and that was revenue that was going to be yanked out of Condinast and Anna went to send me straight down to Palm Beach Florida to do a major profile on Mrs. Lauder. Wow. To make up for that slight. So I have to say that is not exactly um emblematic of what journalistic ethics are supposed to be. Well, I mean it's not the New York Times. It's not the Washington Post. Yeah. It is fashion.

19:04 But but the thing is I think a lot of readers really can't tell the difference anyways between advertising and editorial because well you have to have an intelligent and sophisticated eye to tell the difference because it's more and more blurred. Most fashion magazines that are worth their medal usually are full of advertisers, advertising pages, and those pages are almost created like editorials anyway. Exactly. So, it really doesn't make any difference whether you're looking at the advertising page or the editorial page.

19:28 Sometimes they blur all into one. Most of the great magazines do that nowadays. So, one of your contributions in terms of personal style to fashion is your capes and your calf tans. How did you start wearing them? And I should say these are not ordinary capes. These are like amazingly designed like sometimes out of metriculated fur and just thought out and processed with the great class worldass designers. Well, when I went to Marrakesh and saw that the men in North Africa in Marrakesh and Casablanca walked around in CFAN shirts and loose cliff fitting clothes all day, every day they woke up, they put on their long sleeved to the floor ankle shirts to the floor. They had calf tans and this is the indigenous dress of the black man in Marrakesh. And this is I decided I want to be like that. I want to wear that instead of a suit because it's comfortable. You're ventilated. You're roomy. You're cozy.

20:28 And you can just stretch. And I'm not a tall stick anymore. I'm a big big guy of great girth. And it people think I look like maybe my clothes don't look that important, but I have taken great time and fittings for my capes and capants made by the great designers. So I will continue to wear these things to the rest of my life. Did your weight have anything to do with wanting to wear? Absolutely. Absolutely. My weight issue is an ongoing thing. It's an ongoing battle. I battled it. I battled the bulge of the biscuits. 540 calories at the Duke Diet and Fitness Center. I go there ever often almost every other year. It's a place where I go and it's discipline but I've had weight issues and of course my weight issues are obviously go back to my childhood and the loss of love and I considered I associate food with love for my grandmother's home the modest home in the kitchen. Uh my grandmother

21:20 used to make me a pan of biscuits every Sunday morning just for myself and you don't know how wonderful that smell is of those hot biscuits with butter and molasses. I have carried that throughout my life. She would make lemon pound cakes. At Christmas, we have fruit cakes, chocolate cake, coconut cake, lemon pound cake. Four or five cakes, six pies sitting waiting to be eaten on Christmas day for the family. But you were skinny as a young man. So something changed. I something changed when my grandmother died. It was when my grandmother died. I started eating for love. And I just don't know how to discipline this. I'm sorry. Everyone in America is perhaps overweight. And I totally emphasize what people emphasize.

22:00 I feel very bad. But I did select CF tans at a certain age and my suits, my beautiful custom made suits are put away because the CF tans create a stately tall image. You can look great in them and look slim. So um um one of the things you you you mentioned in the new documentary about you is that you've never had a long-term romantic partner and that you were, you know, very preoccupied with your profession and loved your profession very much. Um, have you reflected a lot on why you think you never reflect? Well, I was afraid who's a dear friend of mine said, I was afraid to fall in love. I was afraid of the rejection. I was afraid of emotional commitment and I was not deliberately making the navigating through the shores and chiffon trenches of my career. It just wasn't a part of of me because although I lived in a world of great promiscuity and li libertine ways in the 70s studio 54 Paris and I discovered the

23:03 freedom of people embracing people for their individuality or not just their sexuality that you could be gay, you could be quattrosexual or pansexual as Janelle Monae says. I just loved living the life that I lived, living through the world that I was exposed to on the front row from fashion and bonding with people that I could have conversations with. As you remember, I was living a life of an only child in a home with my grandmother. So, we didn't have many conversations. I didn't have much to say to my grandmother except that she only read the missionary helper, her Bible, and the newspapers. And I she didn't have a cookbook. She never cooked for a recipe written. All her recipes were in her head or borrowed from her sisters verbally on the telephone. She grew the most beautiful geraniums. She had rows and rows of clay pots with geraniums every year on the porch. Roses in her rose garden. Everything was done by

24:00 instinct of wrote. So I didn't have much to say to my grandmother and I was very quiet and so I didn't have people to talk to. I was very much alone in my childhood except for Vogue. And Vogue was a world it was like Alice in Wonderland almost. I'd just gone down the the rabbit hole into this world of glamour through the pages of writing the spoken written word. The word mattered as much as image. How does that relate to not having a a partner? Well, I didn't have time. I as John said, you were afraid of relationships. I was emotionally afraid of people. So, I did not want to get close to people. I did not want people to touch me. I didn't like to touch people. So, that is just a part of who I am. And I I regret to this day uh I have difficulty uh responding to a physical emotion. And um it's based on I guess a childhood experience. I don't know what it is. I can't relate to that. I can't think about that now. But

24:53 I do regret not having that uh relationship. I regret not having siblings. And I think about it almost every day because as I get older, it's very very lonely. I have live a lonely life. I live in my own guilt guilt goldplated hell. As Tennessee Williams says, I know the goldplated hell I'm going to. And I invented this goldplated hell. And now I must live in it. I have a beautiful home. I have beautiful books, beautiful furniture, beautiful art, beautiful music. I love every movies. I have beautiful clothes. But I live in a goldplated hell. However, I am not going to say it's the worst life.

25:33 It's been a wonderful life. You know, you were talking about how you were quiet when you were growing up and alone and you're so gregarious and so talkative and so easy to talk to. It seems like two different Andre Leantalies. There is two different Andrealies. As I said, of course, there are two different Andre Leantalies because you I have someone to talk to who's listening to what I have to say. And I didn't have that when I was growing up. I was very much a silent person. I was afraid of people. I I went through high school thinking no one liked me and then I realized people really adored me in high school. I mean, I have great friends who come to me recently, a friend that I lost contact with and I recently found out where he lived and um his name is Barry Parker and he lives in Ghana, North Carolina.

26:20 And I thought I just didn't think he liked me in high school. I I considered him a friend, but then I contacted him and he considers me a close friend and we're very close now. It's just amazing how I went through high school thinking I was an outsider and I didn't discuss that with anyone. I had no one to discuss that with at home. People were beating you up also. So you had every reason to think you were an outsider. Yeah. Yeah. I was an outsider. I was an outsider with class and style. And I knew that I had style. I knew that I had style. I knew that I had style based on something very strong. I remember when I would see Ed Sullivan and the great talents he would have like uh Tina Turner, Ike Turner, James Brown and those people impacted upon me. Tina Ike Turner had a big belt and I wanted a belt just like that. I remember he was on the cover of Ebony magazine on 1971 May and he had this big belt and a red

27:09 sweater with no sleeves and plaid trousers tucked in the boots and I wanted to look like Ike Turner. I didn't want to be like I Turner beating up Tina Turner, but I wanted to have that look. I hope. And those looks I aspired to. I wanted to look like a pirate and I dressed like a pirate. So, you talked about how you were um afraid to be touched. You didn't really want to be touched. I'm wondering if the AIDS epidemic had anything to do with reinforcing that feeling. Well, the AIDS epidemic did not I was not afraid of people with AIDS, but I was very aware of AIDS and I was very aware the AIDS would could take you out and you had to be careful. When AIDS started, people were getting sick with saroma caposi saroma. Is that correct? Caposi saroma.

27:53 And it was very mystery. It was very une very heavy. So this is another moment to pull back from people. And I never really really really got involved with the people ever ever. I had great emotional um experiences, contacts with very strong strong people. These people are wonderful. I've had more emotional and physical contacts with women than with men. And I will not name the women, but they have been famous women. So there you are. That's all you need to know, Terry. Okay, that's good enough for me. We're not talking about that anymore.

28:32 Oh, that's good enough for me. Okay. So, during the course of this interview, you've mentioned your father and your grandmother. I don't think you've mentioned your mother. Well, my mother, she was a part of my life and my father and mother divorced when I was 9 years old. And my mother was very much in my life. Her name was Alma Rutali and she died in 2015, I think. 2014, 2015. She's buried in the cemetery and beautifully the ornament of the grave markers. I spent a great deal of time designing it and it cost a lot of money and um her funeral service was one of the most beautiful services ever at Mount Sia Baptist and I spent a lot of time designing it. I spent a great deal of time and Dr. Buts flew in and gave the eulogy for Calvin Buts Calvin Obuts the third. I flew him in and he gave the eulogy. And so I do respect my mother and I had a relationship with my mother.

29:26 But I'll just tell you why you haven't spoken so much about my mother. When I was at Brown, this will just give you a story and then we're going to stop. I'm not going to say anymore. Okay. I was at Brown and I came home for Christmas and I was wearing a ankle length navy blue naval officer's coat with gold braid on the cuffs that I bought at a thrift shop. It was a maxi coat that was equivalent of a maxi coat, but it was to the floor with gold buttons, guilt buttons, naval naval coat. It didn't cost a lot of money, but it was had a great deal of style and it was very heavy. It was very warm. And my mother and I, we got out of the car and you had to walk up the walk to the church. It was about maybe 100 ft. And uh my grandmother had gotten out and gone in church before us. She was very spritly.

30:09 And so my mother looked around at me and she said, "Well, you have to wait and walk behind me. I can't walk in church with you." I said, "Why? What's wrong?" She said, 'Well, I can't be seen with you with that Phantom of the Opera look. And I said, 'Okay, well, I'll just hold back and you can go on in the church and I'll just come behind you. So, this is I was maybe 24 and I realized this is my mother and I must respect her, but this is the mother who does not get me. And thank God for my grandmother. When your grandmother died in 1989, did she have a clue how successful you'd become? Oh, she was very proud of me.

30:48 She was very indeed very proud. Very proud. She had a great clue. She knew. She knew. She She knew. She spoke to Mrs. Veland. She knew I was on the top of the world at Vogue. She was very proud. Did you dress her at all? Oh, of course I did. What What were good grandmother clothes for her? Well, the good grandmother clothes were not necessarily clothes. They were accessories. And on the summer, I would go to Garfinkles when I was a park ranger in the government. the park ranger at the Lincoln Memorial and a park ranger at uh the Fort Washington.

31:22 And I would go spend all my money on gloves, kids loft, leather gloves for my grandmother wear to church, black leather gloves. And I'd buy her beautiful core handbags, k o r e t. These are all the bags and things I discovered at Vogue. And then I would buy her sometimes shoes, but I was not big on shoes because I bought a pair of the very expensive alligator shoes once on a very high heel, a thick high heel. And I remember she did not wear them much and she didn't want to in make hurt my feelings. She just didn't wear them much. And I realized that I made the bad choice because the heels were too high.

31:55 But she she loved all the things that I bought. I bought beautiful hats and Carl Lerfell used to give me beautiful fabric from his collections at Khloe and I would take the fabric home and she'd have beautiful dresses made and those dresses are still in my closet. And then finally when I got to be big at Vogue, I would buy Chanel suits from the ready to wear and give them to my grandmother to wear to church and she loved them and she was very proud. A navy blue suit and a pink suit. All right. It's been a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much. Well, Ter, it's been a great pleasure talking with you. Thank you so much.

32:26 Andre Leon Thally is the subject of the new documentary, The Gospel According to Andre.

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "For 'Vogue' Titan André Leon Talley, Fashion Was A 'Gateway To The World' (2018 interview)"?

Terry Gross (Host), André Leon Talley (Guest).

What is "For 'Vogue' Titan André Leon Talley, Fashion Was A 'Gateway To The World' (2018 interview)" about?

André Leon Talley reflects on his journey in the fashion industry, highlighting how the world of fashion served as a transformative escape from his childhood in segregated North Carolina. His experiences at Vogue, mentorship from industry icons, and his unique personal style reveal the profound impact of fashion on his identity and worldview.

What is mentioned in this Fresh Air episode?

9 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Andre Leon Talley, The Gospel According to Andre, Diana Vreeland, Brown University, Rhode Island School of Design, Alma Rutledge. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "For 'Vogue' Titan André Leon Talley, Fashion Was A 'Gateway To The World' (2018 interview)"?

The episode runs 33 min; the transcript is about 6,153 words in 42 timestamped sections.

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