"Sinners" director Ryan Coogler paid a steep price for the films he made | Fresh Air

What this episode is about

Filmmaker Ryan Coogler discusses his latest film, "Sinners," a genre-bending horror thriller set in 1930s Mississippi that explores themes of oppression and exploitation through the lens of supernatural forces. Featuring twin brothers played by Michael B. Jordan, the film serves as a tribute to Coogler's late uncle and reflects on his journey as a filmmaker, highlighted by his previous acclaimed works such as "Fruitvale Station" and "Black Panther."

Key takeaways

• Ryan Coogler turns horror into a sharp social critique, proving vampires can embody systemic oppression.
• Choosing passion over profit, Coogler's gamble on 'Sinners' highlights the tension between integrity and blockbuster success.
• The dichotomy of identity shapes Coogler’s narrative; the best stories often come from living between worlds.
• By blending genres, Coogler tackles complex histories, showing that life’s richest tales don’t fit neatly into one box.
• Stepping away from the Marvel machine, Coogler’s leap reminds us: sometimes, the biggest risk is not taking one.

Who speaks in this episode?

• Tanya Mosley (Host) · 11 min speaking
• Ryan Coogler (Guest) · 26 min speaking

What is discussed, and when

1. 0:00 – 5:00: Sinners, Black Panther, Tanya Mosley, Fruitville Station
2. 10:00 – 15:00: Black Panther
3. 20:00 – 25:00: Blues Brothers
4. 25:00 – 30:00: Sinners, Black Panther
5. 35:00 – 36:39: Sinners, Black Panther

Notable quotes from ""Sinners" director Ryan Coogler paid a steep price for the films he made | Fresh Air"

• Well, his new film is called Sinners and it hit theaters just last week. It delves into horror with a genre bending thriller set in 1930s Mississippi. The story follows twin brothers, Smoke and.

  about Sinners · at 0:12

• Killed by police in Oakland. Since then, he's become the highest grossing black filmmaker in history and the youngest director to helm a billion dollar movie with Black…

  about Black Panther · at 2:10

• Like it was just all man's and like to be honest with you, I thought the blues was like for white people, you know what I'm saying? Cuz at that time, you had like the movie The Blues Brothers, which I hadn't seen,.

  about Blues Brothers · at 22:22

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

• Tanya Mosley — Person · Host / interviewer · 1 mention · first at 0:00
  Hosts Fresh Air for this episode and guides the conversation through Cougler’s film, themes, and personal history.
  This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley and my guest today is filmmaker Ryan Cougler. You probably know his name as the director of Fruitville Station, Creed and both Black Panther films.
• Oscar Grant — Person · Referenced subject of earlier film · 1 mention · first at 2:08
  His death is the real-life event depicted in Cougler’s debut film "Fruitvale Station," used to contextualize Cougler’s career and themes.
  Background. Cougler's debut into the film world happened in 2013 with Fruit Veil Station, which chronicled the final hours of Oscar Grant, a young black man killed by police in…

Books & papers

• Fruitville Station — Book · 1 mention · first at 0:07
  Uncle's stories about Mississippi as old Delta Blues records spun in the background. Cougler's debut into the film world happened in 2013 with Fruit Veil Station, which…

Concepts & topics

• Sinners — Media Product · Film directed by Ryan Coogler · 7 mentions · first at 0:12
  A new film that explores themes of horror and identity.
• Black Panther — Media Product · Film directed by Ryan Coogler · 7 mentions · first at 0:09
  A significant film in the Marvel franchise and a cultural milestone.

Media & podcasts

• Blues Brothers — Media · 1 mention · first at 22:27

Full transcript with timestamps

0:00 This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley and my guest today is filmmaker Ryan Cougler. You probably know his name as the director of Fruitville Station, Creed and both Black Panther films. Well, his new film is called Sinners and it hit theaters just last week. It delves into horror with a genre bending thriller set in 1930s Mississippi. The story follows twin brothers, Smoke and Stack, both played by Michael B. Jordan. After surviving the trenches of World War I and navigating Chicago's criminal underworld, the brothers return home to Mississippi, hoping to start fresh by opening a juke joint. But peace does not last long. Instead, they're met by supernatural forces, vampires who act as metaphors for oppression, exploitation, and systems that feed on black life, body, and spirit. I only ever heard stories. I ain't never come across them myself. What stories you heard? How Hanks work. They search places with the

1:01 soul of a man. But vampires is different. Maybe the worst kind. The soul gets stuck in the body. Can't rejoin the ancestors. Cursed to live here with all this hate. Can't even feel the warmth of a sunrise. Okay then. Can we bring them back? Maybe if I kill the ones that made them this way. Smoke, they have a connection, but they live on. Even if the one that made them is killed, the best thing we can do for him is free his spirit from this curse. They got to be killed one by one. How the hell do we do that? Sunlight and wooden staked.

1:46 Ryan Cougler says Sinners is also a tribute to his late uncle James who first introduced him to the blues when he was a kid. Cougler would soak up his uncle's stories about Mississippi as old Delta Blues records spun in the background. Cougler's debut into the film world happened in 2013 with Fruit Veil Station, which chronicled the final hours of Oscar Grant, a young black man killed by police in Oakland. Since then, he's become the highest grossing black filmmaker in history and the youngest director to helm a billion dollar movie with Black Panther. He decided to press pause on making Black Panther 3 to take the risk of making sinners. Ryan Cougler, welcome to Fresh Air and congrats on this film. I have seen it twice and I enjoyed it very much. Hey, I I appreciate you having me. I'm I'm really uh thrilled to be here. So, Ryan, you put Black Panther 3 on hold. that is a billion-dollar franchise as I

2:46 mentioned to make this film in a moment when it seems like Hollywood is kind of playing it safe uh to sequels and remakes. What made you say this is the story I have to tell now? And even if it means stepping away from the success of something like a Marvel machine, did that feel like a risk? Yes, but to be honest with you, it would have been more of a risk to not make it. the movie was kind of on my heart and when you have something uh that clear for me uh it's a rare thing and and and I had this this idea and it was very uh well I I will go back to say like I didn't put anything on hold for this you know um it was more you know like that Last Panther film took a lot of time, you know. Um it it took more time than any of us had anticipated it taking. You know, those movies those movies tend to take about two years, you know. Um this one took four um because of the last Black Panther film. Yeah. Yeah. The Black

3:57 Panther were kind of f. It was because of the the uh the tragic uh passing of Chowick Boseman. Rest in peace. um the the the uh global pandemic and and and in making those films man like like uh there's so many there's so much interest there's so many people involved there's so many indust industries that are around to a Marvel film right yes because because you know and and it is I'm not I'm not uh complaining about it but there there is a um a lot of pressure around those movies and I just made two back to back, you know. So, so, so I was coming off of I was coming off of both of those projects, you know, knowing there was no way I was going to do another one next, you know, I was going to have to do something, you know, I was going to do something different, you know, you know, before before I came back to that. But but um for me, I I got I got hit by almost like a bolt of lightning.

4:57 You said this particular film, Sinners, was like it was on your heart to do. And I I want you to take us back to when that idea really clicked for you that Yeah. not only the creation of a story like this, but that the story didn't have to live in one genre or even one reality because you're blending so much here. I mean, you're blending history, historical drama, action, um, all against the backdrop of 1930s Mississippi. What made you realize that this mix was necessary to fully bring this story to life? This movie was like all about dichotomy, you know, and and and and that's something that I've been dealing with my whole life, you know.

5:40 um this this feeling of not totally fitting in or or or or things not totally squaring with each other, you know, like um coming up, I was black, I was from Oakland, I was middle class and I was I was in these neighborhoods where my parents were kind of outliers. They got married young and they went to college, but they stayed in their neighborhood, you know. So I constantly as a as a kid would feel like I was like living in two different worlds. There's a dichotomy there. And I took this I took the student serious. I was like a big old giant nerd. But I was but I was also like a very very serious athlete, you know. And where I'm from to be an athlete, you like adjacent to street culture. You know what I'm you know what I'm saying? like um you know you get you know you get cool points in the streets when you when you when you good at football or basketball or running track like I was. I was also

6:44 raised Christian. I was raised Baptist in in the black Baptist tradition. You know what I'm saying? But I was going to Catholic school. So I was I was I was around these like two very different types of Christianity and trying to reckon, you know what I mean? Reckon with that on a daily basis. Um, and it made me it made me very sensitive to themes of identity, you know, and and the dichotomy as an idea. That's so interesting because I really feel it almost with every single character in this film. I want to talk to you in a minute about how you complicate like villains, but the use of vampires in particular to like really articulate the story. One of the vampires says in the film, "I want your stories and I want your songs." And that line is very important. You got to You got to You got to finish it though. He says something after that. Yeah. He says, "And you and you're going to have mine."

7:43 Yes. Right. Right. Exactly. Exactly. Right. It's important. That's such an important line because it brings into focus that these vampires are like draining more than blood. They're draining culture and identity, but they're also offering something back like in replacement of that. Like, how did you land on using vampires as a metaphor for that kind of extraction? I mean, I'll be honest with you to to to me, allegory, metaphor, all of these all these things. Um, I'm not going to tell you that they're not present in my work, right?

8:19 But I I was not in this case with this project, I was not being conscious of it, you know, like I I was I was trying to, you know, I was trying to communicate um a feeling through cinematic language. And and the reality is as I've gotten older in this in in this business and in this craft, you know, I realize that if I can make something true, the it's up to the viewer to draw those parallels. You you take the thing and you analyze it and with and in your analysis you might project your own experiences, your own knowledge. You know what I'm saying? And you might draw certain parallels that that weren't the parallels that I always intended, you know?

9:00 But I think it's super fascinating though that like when I asked you the question about like what drew you to this story and why you had to tell this story, you said immediately like my life experience is the reason why I wanted to tell this story. What drew you to a vampire story? Yeah, I love vampires, man. Like like um you know, and and I I love horror uh fiction. I love horror movies. Um I love fantasy. I was raised, you know, uh uh around a lot of organized religion. Um and vampires intersect with all of that. You know what I mean? like in I grew up also grew up in in Oakland which like which which is very dominated by street culture you know um and you know you know all these things like I I find vampires they they pull from all of that in terms of supernatural creatures and I thought when I when the idea came to me for this movie I thought about I thought about other supernatural creatures as a

10:05 thing that they that they confront at the juke joint. I went down the line, you know, like um I thought about werewolves, I thought about zombies, you know, I thought about uh shape shifters, which which in some in some um indigenous cultures uh might refer to as skinwalkers. I thought about all, you know, I got I went through the whole rolodex, you know, and and and I and I kept coming back to vampires because of um everything that the vampire implies in public consciousness, you know. Uh, vampires, uh, it's not a steadfast rule, but it's pretty commonly associated with sensuality. Vampires are expected to be sexy, usually expected to be fashionable, usually expected to be knowledgeable, um, uh, usually expected to be very powerful. Um, it's not thought of as as wrong if a vampire is converted to vampirism, but they maintain their human personality, you know, the human memories. It's a

11:04 fascinating premise, you know, you'll see a version of this, you know what I mean? Almost almost in every culture. And and to me, you know, like that that that is just like a fascinating thing if I'm if I'm trying to have a conversation about our common humanity, you know, like which which which for me, you know, this movie is about, you know, um and and and you know what what better what better to contrast, you know. Um, uh, oh, the other piece that the vampire involves is is the the the Fian deal. I was very interested in that, like this crossroads like the devil, the deal with the devil kind of thing. Yes. Robert Johnson is who's most associated with that fable and and and there's this tradition of things being taken, you know what I mean? the songs being sung over and over again, you know, by black people, you know, and then it was eventually done by white people, you know, like and because

12:01 it was and because it was such a awfully racist time when they built this industry genre was kind of born out of this idea like where where where where a black person would sing a song and and you talking about a backreing form of a part tide, you know, at this time and a black person sings a song, white person come sings the same song, same lyrics, same uh same rhythm, same music. And they would say, "All right, the black person song, that is a race record. We going we going to sell that as a race record. This song is rock and roll." You know what I mean? We going to sell that as rock and roll. Like that that concept, you know, and imagine me in 2025 saying, "I'm going to make a genre movie." Not even understanding that classification of art and how some art is above other art. You know what I'm saying? You know, it's a period drama.

12:50 Oh, this is a this a genre movie, you know. I I realized, oh man, my people have been at war with this, you know, from from from the beginning. This has been a tool kind of kind of lobbyed against us, you know. Um so so for so for me um the the vampire was a creature who's like human adjacent um who was human at some point, you know, became something else. But but through their advanced age, they could see society for what it was. Jack Oonnell, who plays Remick, the Irish vampire antagonist, he is relatable kind of in the same way that I'm thinking about Killilmonger and Black Panther, was relatable like in many ways saying kind of speaking the truth um speaking the truth to systems of oppression.

13:45 What draws you to creating antagonists who are in many ways right about the things that they know? You know, it's not such a straight line. Good guy, bad guy. Like each one is complicated. I think that's scarier. You know, it is scarier. Yes. Say more. Yeah. I think that's I think it's more frightening when when when um the film the film is about blues music, right? Which is which is which is storytelling. Um but it's also a music that I think was made to help a people who were constantly under attack to help them cope to help them feel better.

14:38 and to remind them that they were to remind them that they were human. You know what I mean? To remind them like like and and and and and that's what the music is. And for me to have a a creature who's incredibly powerful, who was human at a time, who who is who is in pain, you know, um, and who who who needs to cope in a in a way that only a community can can can can can give him. If if I can make a film where you're afraid of this guy, you know what I mean? But that but that's really what's going on with him. I thought about it after after I wrote it and I said, "Oh man, who does he lie to and who is he honest with?" Because for me it's very clear that he identifies with these people meaning like the black people, right? This 100%.

15:28 Yeah. Yeah. He he identifies with them and that connection between what we experienced uh we being African-Americans foundational African-Americans who experienced under the forcable removal from from from from the continent of Africa and placement you know what I mean in the Americas and the systems that were built uh after that you know our experience and the experience of the Irish people being forced to work you know land that that has immeasurable abundance and wealth but being denied that. Yeah. So, so, so, so I mean like the connections between the two cultures are really obvious to spot, you know, um uh you know, but but also the in the history here in the States is very complicated, you know what I mean? Like like um you know, uh because of because of uh uh um uh the mobility of of of of certain immigrants that that that you know that the ability to become white, you know what I mean? the Irish became

16:28 white. Yeah. And and and what that took as it relates to to camaraderie with us, you know what I mean? Um a decision had to be made, you know what I'm saying? And when you making a movie about about American blues music, you know what I'm saying? Like the you know, Irish folks got to have a a place in that, you know, you know what I mean? Like they were there. It's so interesting because I think that most of us don't know that history. And so when it shows up in the film, it makes sense when you go back and you read the history, which I did cuz I didn't know it going into this film, but I had to learn it afterwards. There's also the Chinese American store owners who in the film operate these two grocery stores. So, one is in the black part of town and then one is in the white zone. And they kind of exist in like Well, I mean, they're across the street from each other. Yeah. It's the white side of the street and the black

17:22 side. Yeah. Right. I mean, they're never fully kind of accepted in white or black communities, but more so it feels like in black communities. I had a friend who saw the movie and said like, "Did this really happen?" When did you learn about that history? You know, the reality is they were accepted in the black community. you know, how we found out was was was was ironic like like um you know, 10 years or so back we were doing 23 and me, you know, and I obviously a lot of that's they in the news a lot lately I've been seeing but but um you know, everybody was trying to find out that their heritage and for for uh for foundational black people, you know, we was jumping on it, right? Cuz cuz because of uh uh you know, all of the um indignities done to to our ancestors. At the top of it was the deliberate um splitting of of ethnic groups through the transatlantic slave tribe to to um quill rebellions that were constantly

18:17 happening, you know. Um so so as a result of that, you know, we don't know what ethnic group we from. I spat in the tube and and you know, like checked it out and they just came back. It came back like 86% West African. And I was like, "Oh man, that doesn't tell me what I like." I knew I knew that. I know that. And I and I shared it with I shared it with with Chadwick Bman when we met and he said, "Hey man, check out African ancestry because I do it the proper way. You can really find out, you know, some answers to these questions."

18:45 And and I and I did mine and and my wife whose father is is is African-American. Her mom is from the Philippines. You know what I'm saying? So our pops takes the test. He test he tested his X chromosome, his Y chromosome, right? His X chromosome comes back West African. Guess what? His Y chromosome comes back Chinese. Han Chinese. He you know this man is in his 90s. He opened that pack it up and said like what the you know you know what I mean and and where was he where's he from? He was born in Chicago. Where were his parents from? From Mississippi.

19:17 That's right. So so we so we we we start digging into it. You know what I'm saying? You know we find we find out that you know my my my wife's black dad comes from these people. The eraser. you know, they were there. You know, that is not that is not, you know, only like what I like to say. The only thing false in this movie is the vampires. You know what I'm saying? Like, you know, um you know, they were they they they were they were absolutely there. The technical wow factor to the way the images popped is is really striking.

19:50 Specifically for me, the cotton field driving scenes, were those real cotton fields? They they were. They were, but we had to we had to transplant them and then we used we used digital technology to replicate them at times. Did you ever have a moment in a cotton field in in the making of this? Well, I had a moment before like like um uh when I was still trying when I was still when I didn't have a movie in my head just yet, but I was but I was dealing with a lot of the elements. Um, I was working on Panther 2 and um, I was in Byron, Georgia and I looked out the window when my when my team was driving me to the hotel and I and I saw my first cotton field in person. What was that like, man? It really messed me up, man. I told him to pull over, you know? Um, cuz I was already sad and contemplative, you know what I mean? And, uh, I got out the car and walked into it and, you know, uh, took a piece I took a piece home. I

20:46 still got it at home now. But, you know, the fact that I had been at this age and and done a lot done and had never seen, you know, I wear cotton every day, you know, and I know the story of my people and, you know, the fact that, um, what for many years has been the most powerful, you know, uh, empire in the world sentenced them to that being their life working in in these cash crop fields. And and like like looking at it, seeing it for the first for the first time, it messed me up. And I knew I wasn't done with it. I'm really struck by what you said that um you know the blues connected people to their humanity. It reminded them that they were human and blues serves really as the sound and the soul of this film.

21:32 Your relationship with the blues. You talk about your uncle James. What what music did he play around you? What was he into? Man, he played all of it, man. He he he was he was big on Albert King. He was big on Muddy. He was big on Holland Wolf. He was big on on Coco Tyler. Um big on John Lee Hooker. Um Sunny Boy Williamson, Mississippi Frag McD. He's big on all of them man. You being a kid of the 80s and the 90s. What was it like for you to sit at his knee and listen to that music? Did you appreciate it at that young age? I just liked I just liked being with him. I wasn't thinking about the music, you know, like like I I associated it with him. And at that time, the blues wasn't for I didn't think the blues was for me.

22:20 I didn't think it was mine, you know, like like it was it was just all man's and like and like to be honest with you, I thought the blues was like for white people, you know what I'm saying? Cuz cuz at that time, you know, you had like the movie The Blues Brothers, which I hadn't seen, but but you know, on the poster it was these white dudes with these hats, you know what I'm saying? like, you know, so I was I was like, "Okay, you know, the blues is for old black people and it's for white people." You know what I'm saying? Cuz I was listening I was listening to to to Tupac and and what's crazy is my favorite song, group, and music video was Bone Thugs Crossroads.

22:59 Not even knowing not even knowing that like the Crossroads is like, you know what I'm saying? Like that's a blues thing. You know what I mean? like it made its way in the in the Cleveland gangster rap, but it was really that, you know, but I didn't know. I I was I was a kid and and it took my uncle dying and then me listening to the music without him anymore to explain it to me. But I'm trying to hang on to every word trying to see if if if you know what I'm saying, like if I could get a clue about my uncle's life or like why he liked this stuff. You know what I'm saying?

23:33 And then and then boom, I realized the the brilliance of it like that this was the bass that everything came out of. How did legendary blues guitarist Buddy Guy become part of this project? It was so cool to see him. That was like a really cool cameo. Buddy Guy was like the last musician my uncle would go see consistently, you know. Um he he would get dressed up and go to his concerts like up up until his death. So when I was finishing up the script, I had this idea when I got to those last few scenes. I was like, "Oh man, wouldn't it be cool if like when my uncle get a kick out of Buddy Guy being in this movie, you know?" So So I kind of got that I kind of had that idea and and I talked to my casting director Francine Masler and my producers Zenzi and Sev and and said, "I want to try to get up get Buddy Guy in this movie." And you know, everybody kind of panicked a little bit, you know, but then but then um but then,

24:28 you know, we we we got into it and uh Zay and I went out there and went to his his his restaurant, Blues Club, Legends. Um I I fully expected, but he got to say, "Hey, man. It's nice to meet you, kid, but I'm not I'm not being in a movie." You know what I mean? Like like I'm like I'm good. I'm, you know, I'm almost 90 years old, bro. You know, like like I'm not I don't have time for that. And and and so I was prepared for that. But his kids, man, they were smiling at me, you know, and and uh and I go to sit down and he's like, "Look, you know, I don't you know, I don't know who you are or what you do, but my grandkids tell me I should sit with you and I should hear I should hear you out, you know, and I've decided, you know, whatever you whatever you need from me, cuz they speak so highly of you, you know, I'm in."

25:19 Has he seen the film? Have you guys talked about He has. Yeah, we show we showed it to him in We showed it to him in Chicago. What did he say? He gave it a stamp of approval, you know, like like you know, cuz you know, that was his life, man. He he was a sharecropper in in Louisiana and um and had to make the decision to to leave home. And he has so many beautiful stories, but a lot of them are heartbreaking, man. Like um he he wears he wears polka dots, polka dot suits, polka dot guitars. And um and I and I asked him why. And he said when he when he left home to become a blues musician, he told his mom he was gonna make enough money to buy her a polka dot Cadillac. You know, and she and she passed away before he could do it. So the polka dots became his trademark. You know what I'm saying? And just that story uh of him having like me imagining this this nearly 90 year old man having to explain to his mom, hey, I'm going to

26:14 leave home. I'm going try to go be I'm going to try to go make it with this guitar, you know, while she's in what was a slave shack in Louisiana, you know what I mean? Like sharecropping, you know, and he's and he's hearing 25 completely lucid telling me all about it. There is this moment when one of the twins, he he says something like, "It's better to deal with the devil, you know." and he's referring to having lived in Chicago and up north and gone all across the world, but now he's back in Mississippi. And you being a guy who was born and raised on the West Coast in in Oakland, your accent gives it away.

26:55 What did you learn growing up about kind of those myths? Like you talk about the shame a little bit, but those myths that somehow the west or the north or the east um was better than the south. I was born in the wake of um the military defeated the Black Panthers. So that dream of a better life in the west, you know, that was gone. You did not grow up with that myth that where you are is better than the south. No, I grew up. Look, the first movie I seen in theaters was Boys in the Hood, you know, which which which which, you know, I was five years old.

27:35 My dad took me to see that movie and and and you know, I was that was what was happening, you know, down the Highway Five from us, you know. I was four years old. You saw Boys in the Hood at four years old? I was I was I might have been actually five. Yeah. Yeah. I was born in ' 86. I think that movie came out ' 91. Yeah. I was 5 years old. you know, my dad but but my, you know, my dad was was a, you know, dad in his 20s. He heard that it was a he he had just lost his father before I was born. My mom's dad died before he before I was born. Both my parents' fathers died within two weeks of each other, right after they got married. And and you know, he was he I heard that this was a movie fathers, black fathers should text their sons to.

28:16 So he took me, you know, um did the same thing with Malcolm X. And like six months later, five years old in the theater watching Boys in the Hood. Do you remember the scenes that like I remember everything were seared into your brain that stuck with you cuz that's a real powerful movie for a 5-year-old. I remember I remember the whole movie. Yeah. My memory with movies is is is pretty um pretty solid. Um but yeah, I remember all of it. I saw Malcolm X shortly after. Um, it was it was really ironic cuz I we just premiered Centers in that same in that same in that same room, that same theater and my and my dad sat My dad sat in in in the same row. You noted in the moment that like, wow, my dad is sitting in that same row and we Absolutely, man.

29:04 I was a mess. Y'all was a mess the whole night. Yeah, y'all was a mess the whole night. It's my favorite screening of anything I ever made. Um, you and Michael B. Jordan, you guys have worked on Fruit Val Station and Creed, Black Panther, and now Sinners. In Sinners, he plays twin brothers. Why twins? It's a great question. Um, the film deals with dichotomy as I mentioned, and I was born into a family with loads of twins, specifically like my my mom's older sisters who are identical, Monte Merlin and Monte Kurlin. So, you saw that intimacy of twins up close. Oh yeah, my whole life.

29:41 Like I can't like my my my my aunts have always been around. One of them was my godmother, you know. So they always been a part of my life. The dynamic between them and the stories, you know, um they they're in their 70s now and they live next door to each other. But the but the stories, man, of like of like them beating people up and you know like um the fact that they can't that they that that they can't live with each other, they can't live without they constantly arguing, you know, and the games they would play with people when people couldn't tell them apart. Um and and the fact that I that us could we could turn our backs and and feel one of them come into the room and know which one it was.

30:19 You know what I'm saying? Uh so so it was something that I was always interested in in exploring and it it felt mythical. The other thing is like identical twins are kind of always outlaws, you know, they're kind of always local celebrities and like there's always like a level of um of othering that happens with them. So I was talking to uh filmmaker RL Ross a few months ago about his Oh. Yeah. Yeah. He he relayed how hard it was for him because you know he played basketball from the time he was a kid all the way through college and then he got an injury and um it took him a long time to like sit in this role as filmmaker and you have a similar story. You played football in college. You suffered a shoulder injury. What was that process of transition like for you? Especially when there's so much of your identity tied to like being a ball player. It was it was so so that wasn't totally accurate. I got I suffered a lot of

31:10 injuries like like um broke all type of bones but but injuries didn't take me out. I was actually healthy when I stopped. Um which which was which was more difficult than if than if I I wouldn't have been. I think you know um cuz I I made the decision to stop playing when I could have kept I could have kept playing. Why you make that decision? I think my heart was in film making more and I knew I wanted to make films while I was young, you know. Um because I because I felt like I felt like young people weren't represented in the industry behind the camera, you know, like I could feel it in the in the movies. Whenever I watch a movie about a young person, I was like, man, I don't know if this is accurate, you know, and I realized, oh, yeah, man. Like, you know, the average age for somebody directing something is a lot higher than than than these characters they portraying, you know, and for for me, you know, I wanted to

32:06 try to try to get going early. I had this instinct that that I should try to I got something to say now, if that makes sense. To be a voice of a generation. Um I went Charlotte I to be a voice in a of a generation like one of voices. Yeah. Yeah. One of them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. One of them for sure. I wanted to contribute while I still was young. That was all. And I and I realized that I like the movies by young filmmakers. I remember watching Mean Streets and saying, "Oh yeah, this a different score than than uh than than Good Fellas or or or Departed." You know what I'm saying? I just feels like I can feel his youth. You know what I'm saying? or uh or do the right thing, you know, versus black clansmen. You know what I'm saying? Both both both great movies, but like it's a different spike.

32:54 Movies made by young people are almost always really dynamic that their youth and their optimism and they and they and they anger, it kind of infects the cinema. Uh so I wanted to do that, you know, like and and it was like, damn, like I could keep playing football and see how long this takes me. But I had a feeling that it would be a while if I if I kept pursuing ball, you know, um I could that I could play for a little bit more. I want to end asking you about legacy because um I heard there was a bidding war over centers and part of the deal was that you'd retain Final Cut and you get share of the theatrical opening and eventually own the film outright after 25 years which I felt like that's such a boss move. Um, is that all right first off? And and why was it important for you? I mean I mean it's it's it's it's some truth to some of those articles like I haven't seen any that were that were totally accurate. Um but

33:50 the thing is is like what I'm what I'm what I'm you know those terms are not new terms like they're not um unique you know um uh I will say they are unique but there are other filmmakers out there in the world who have not made as much money as I have at the box office who've had these terms for a long time. It's not that unique, you know. Um, for me to ask for these to have asked for these terms and for me to have received them, right? Um, you know, I wrote the script on spec. Um, my production company has made some really incredible movies in the past, you know, and and there was there was no shortage of companies that wanted to work with us, thankfully. You know what I mean?

34:31 Like for me, the film was so personal uh in and and about my family. Um, and you know, 100 years ago, my family were sharecroppers. 100 years before that, they were in a different type of situation, if you catch what I'm saying. Um, so for me, that was something that I stood on, you know, that my company stood on, you know, and I was so thrilled that that Warner Brothers was comfortable standing on that and and saw value in this project. And I have to imagine there were some people that were upset by that. You know what I mean?

35:11 Like Well, I feel like owning sinners outright after 25 years, I mean, it is a long play. And I I just wonder vision for this story. I pray that I'm still timeline, right? I mean, but imagine expanding or revisiting or building upon I wouldn't real I wouldn't rule anything out, but that was not the reason. Like the reason for me was just for me it was just this story that I wanted to to to you you you listed the films that I made before I made these movies when I was very young and they came at a steep price. I was not there when my uncle died because I was making a movie. I miss I miss so much, you know, making these movies before I was 40 years old.

35:57 And they and they and they've done well over two billion dollars at the box office. You understand? And I and I will never own any of these movies. The next movie I make, Black Panther 3, I will not own that. Disney will own that. You know, it was time for me to own this. Ryan Cougler, this has been such a pleasure to be in conversation with you. Thank you so much for this and thank you for this film. Thank you for watching and thank you for talking about it and bringing your your brilliant expertise to it. Um I'm looking forward to uh folks hearing it.

36:31 Ryan Cougler's new film Sinners is now in theaters. This is fresh air.

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in ""Sinners" director Ryan Coogler paid a steep price for the films he made | Fresh Air"?

Tanya Mosley (Host), Ryan Coogler (Guest).

What is ""Sinners" director Ryan Coogler paid a steep price for the films he made | Fresh Air" about?

Filmmaker Ryan Coogler discusses his latest film, "Sinners," a genre-bending horror thriller set in 1930s Mississippi that explores themes of oppression and exploitation through the lens of supernatural forces. Featuring twin brothers played by Michael B. Jordan, the film serves as a tribute to Coogler's late uncle and reflects on his journey as a filmmaker, highlighted by his previous acclaimed…

What is mentioned in this Fresh Air episode?

6 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Sinners, Black Panther, Tanya Mosley, Fruitville Station, Blues Brothers, Oscar Grant. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is ""Sinners" director Ryan Coogler paid a steep price for the films he made | Fresh Air"?

The episode runs 37 min; the transcript is about 6,789 words in 46 timestamped sections.

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