Transcript

NBA Debates! Plus Christmas Games, and Gifts.

From Game Over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul · Episode page · Watch on YouTube

· 1 h 17 min · 14,715 words · 379 timestamped sections

This is the full, timestamped transcript of "NBA Debates! Plus Christmas Games, and Gifts.", an episode of Game Over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul published December 24, 2025 (1 h 17 min, about 14,715 words). It mentions 32 people, works and ideas, including LeBron, Nolan H. Brunson, Will and Ariel Durant, Kobe Bryant, Corey Booker.

What is discussed, and when

  1. – 10:00: FanDuel, Kobe Bryant, LeBron, Max Kellerman
  2. – 20:00: LeBron, Giants, Kobe Bryant, Shaquille O'Neal
  3. – 30:00: LeBron, Kobe Bryant, Tim Duncan
  4. – 40:00: LeBron, Corey Booker
  5. – 50:00: Nolan H. Brunson, Corey Booker, LeBron, Aman Thompson
  6. – 1:10:00: LeBron, Giants, James Harden, Luca Donuch

Notable quotes from "NBA Debates! Plus Christmas Games, and Gifts."

  • Merry Christmas to you. Max Kellerman, Rich Paul. Game over. Subscribe. See, I do all that stuff. House cleaning.
    about Max Kellerman · at
  • Game over is presented by FanDuel.
    about FanDuel · at
  • Reactions to Kobe because remember like a week or two ago there was this memorabilia story about a Kobe Bryant card sold for a million, too.
    about Kobe Bryant · at
  • So, this what happened. We got all these all Americans, right? And at this time it was LeBron, Carmelo, Lu Aling, Indie Eie, Ricky Pauling, TJ Ford, Kurt Hinrich, Chris the year that the McDonald's All-American game was in DC.
    about LeBron · at
  • Series in New York in the 50s, 40s and 50s, Yankees versus either the Dodgers or Giants every year, right? So, it's called the Subway Series. people took the subway to either…
    about Giants · at
  • There's not a lot of spaces in the top five. Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, Kareem Abdul Jabar, Shaquille O'Neal.
    about Shaquille O'Neal · at
  • Tatum, Cade, Booker, Booker, AD.
    about Corey Booker · at
  • Y do you put Brunson in that situation?
    about Nolan H. Brunson · at

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

  • LeBron — Person · 18 mentions · first at
  • Nolan H. Brunson — Person · 4 mentions · first at
  • Will and Ariel Durant — Person · 4 mentions
  • Kobe Bryant — Person · 3 mentions · first at
  • Corey Booker — Person · 3 mentions · first at
  • Tyrese Haliburton — Person · 3 mentions
  • Larry Bird — Person · 2 mentions
  • Magic Johnson — Person · 2 mentions
  • Max Kellerman — Person · 1 mention · first at
  • Rich Paul — Person · 1 mention · first at
    Merry Christmas to you. Max Kellerman, Rich Paul. Game over. Subscribe. See, I do all that stuff. House cleaning.
  • Shaquille O'Neal — Person · 1 mention · first at
  • Tim Duncan — Person · 1 mention · first at
    But I have opinion. And then there's Tim Duncan, who was Kobe's contemporary. And there's lots of strong arguments pro Duncan over Kobe. Now, in the end, I think those two are close, but I'm taking Kobe. I have Kobe in my.
  • Tyrese Maxi — Person · 1 mention · first at
    Right. Let's go to New Balance. New Balance should have two probably. Tyrese Maxi and Cooper Flag.
  • Eric Sper — Person · 1 mention · first at
  • Donovan Mitchell — Person · 1 mention · first at
    Now, out of those four spots, if we wanted to just have a pool, Donovan Mitchell, you could say Donovan, but where does he fit amongst the guards there? Do you have a crowded back court? Oh,.
  • Austin Reeves — Person · 1 mention · first at
  • Jaylen Johnson — Person · 1 mention · first at
    Yeah. See, Jaylen Johnson, I would say Jaylen Brunson. Jaylen Johnson to me is a Yes. Yes.
  • Aman Thompson — Person · 1 mention · first at
    And then we haven't even gave guys like Jaylen Brown, Aman Thompson.
  • Sherry Castle — Person · 1 mention · first at
    But defense wins championships. You have to look at But I say all that to say we just name Oh, we didn't name Castle.
  • James Harden — Person · 1 mention · first at
    Player work, but of course that gets manipulated by offensive players. James Harden, Luca Donuch, they look to draw fouls, right? everyone does, but especially guys like that.…
  • Luca Donuch — Person · 1 mention · first at
    Player work, but of course that gets manipulated by offensive players. James Harden, Luca Donuch, they look to draw fouls, right? everyone does, but especially guys like that.…
  • Adam Grant — Person · 1 mention
  • Bam — Person · 1 mention
  • Big Ant — Person · 1 mention
  • Chris Paul — Person · 1 mention
  • Eric Spolstra — Person · 1 mention
  • Kade — Person · 1 mention
  • KD — Person · 1 mention
  • Kobe — Person · 1 mention
  • Steph — Person · 1 mention

Companies & orgs

Full transcript with timestamps

All right. First of all, Christmas Eve. Merry Christmas. Merry Christmas to you. Max Kellerman, Rich Paul. Game over. Subscribe. See, I do all that stuff. House cleaning.

Max, you have to say please subscribe. Oh, no. Please. Yeah. Can't beg. But we're trying to build a show.

All right. Listen. See, that's another embarrassment of riches. used to being on TV at these big,

you know, you don't have to ask for the Yeah. Right. I'm used to building out the trunk. So, please subscribe. Thank you.

Listen, uh I know you don't like lists, but depending on what list it is. Hierarchical thinking is what animates a lot of sports talk, right? Like the reason you're watching sports is to figure out who's better. Two two teams go headtohead. Who wins? Who's in second place? Who's in third place?

No. Please don't tell me you're going down this road. Yeah, we're going I think we have to go down this road sometimes, Rich.

I know. Does it make it hard for you when we do this because you have business interest?

I'm not talking goat. Please, no goat. Well, we'll we'll cross that bridge when we get to it, I guess.

Um God, Olympic basketball you've been talking to me about. The Olympics is four years away. I mean, it's not two years away. Yeah. Yeah. There's there's tanking. There's the Christmas games. NBA and NFL.

Looking forward to that. Like, well, we have some stuff to get into. Do you have like a peach you ever had peach cobbler?

Of course. Like real peach cobbler. As a matter of fact, not out the store bought peach cobbler.

Well, well, except that that's not peach cobbler. I had a That's peaches that was in a can.

No, no, no, no, no. Like I've had real peach cobbler. Yes. Okay. Yeah. You think you had real peach cobbler? Peaches is not here anymore. You would have had real peach cobbler.

Your mom Your mom hooked it up. Oh, the best. Yeah, she used to have so many. Let me just tell you something. My mom would bake cakes and pie. Like, what's your favorite pie?

Uh, probably at this point in my life, it's probably cherry pie. Okay. Yeah. Michael's, what's your favorite pie?

So, you and Michael are coming over. This is Max's cherry pie. Oh, yeah. Nobody touches it.

This is Michael's pumpkin pie. Yeah. Nobody touches it. Everybody that came over to the house had their own cake and pie. It was so many cakes and pies. And when I tell you, she used to have people calling my phone, friends of mine. Hey man, your mom I got this. I'm like, what?

She was a hustler. So you haven't had a peach cobbler until you had peaches. But unfortunately,

I had like, you know, I'll get my sister Brandy to make you one. It's just the closest thing to

Love it. a close friend who's whose uh mother used to do that on like uh on my birthday if I she would hook up some fried chicken or some uh or or an apple pie or

you know it really hurts the kids when they do that cuz my mother would cook sweet potato each kid their own breakfast.

Right. But that's not realistic. No. Right. Right. And see I I found out the trick. Grandparents do this type of stuff because they don't have to they don't they don't live with it.

They don't have to do it every day. Yeah. Yeah. No, but I I'm a short order cook around my kids. My girls are with me. It's They all want something different. I'm, you know.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm a short order Door Dash. Yeah. You know. Yeah. Me, too. Really? But that's

I'm the best short for breakfast. I'll hook up French toast. I'll hook up an omelette. I'll hook up all that stuff for breakfast. Then the rest of the meals they can

Do you know my order time on Door Dash? Very fast. Have no idea. Why? Because I'm I'm I'm lying.

Well, you're saying not from them to get to you. You're saying when you put in the order?

I put the order in for the kit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a real talent. Takes me forever. Plus, I'm in different places. Door Dash for Christmas. We're going to have

a really nice nice meal. Yeah. You're cooking the whole meal. Putting it together.

I'm not cooking. Put a chef's hat on and an apron. We'll have someone cooking and then we're going to dinner and you know, we're going to go to dinner as a family. Nice.

It's going to be great. It's going to be nice. It's the best the the every culture because it's the solstice, right? Brian Kenny used to talk about this when we do a boxing show. The December 21st is the shortest day of the year, right? The the solstice. Every culture from a colder climate will have some kind of holiday around there where the family gets together cuz it's cold, the day is short and they all have some kind of something where everyone's coming.

Rummy Cube guy. Am I a what? No. Running cube. I have to show you how to play. Yeah,

we play. Really? Adele and I go at it. Really? Yeah. Yeah. She's really good. But it's like a

No, I do uh I'll do the New York Times games on the app, but I'm But I'm with someone who can do them much much faster than I can.

You're the dumbest person in the house. Yeah. I'm the dumbest person in the house

by far. And I'm And it's there's constant reminders of it. Yeah. Yeah. So that mean you're not Muhammad A. Kellerman?

No, I'm not. I'm Mohamed Kellerman in my house. No, no, I'm the sparring partner.

Yeah, I'm coming out of there with lumps. Yeah. Yeah. All right. You ready to do this?

Let's do it. Game over is presented by FanDuel. FanDuel's got it all. Same game parlays, quick bets for jumping in live and your way so you can build the bet that fits your play. Plus, don't miss out on holiday offers and surprises all month long. Download the FanDuel app or head to fanduel.com/gameover to get started. 21 and over and present in select states or 18 and over and present in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem? Call 1800 gambler or visit rg-help.com. Call 1888789777 or visit ccpg.org/hat in Connecticut.

What's the hat doing on the table today? Well, I wore my do-rag for too long. So,

I got these. Can you see my lines? Yeah, you over did ragged it. But I don't want to I don't I don't really want to wear the hat.

Mhm. Because the reason why I wear my do-rag is so right. Yeah. Do you wear a do-rag sometimes?

No. Never. You could. No, I mean like I just get out of the shower and I put a little stuff in it. Boom. Out the door.

You'd be like Maxwell Kellerman if you wore a do-rag. Woke up. You tie it to the front.

Could you imagine? I mean, you could do it. Uh, Christmas Eve. It's a look. You look very Christmas Eve.

I I got on my Christmas sweater. Is that Ralph? Yeah, of course. Of course. Yeah.

Americana. Ralph is just Ralph is timeless, man. Yeah, for sure. For sure. I'm jealous.

Really? Yeah. I don't have that. Do they have that in a small? I don't know. This is old. Look at this.

That's a flex. Yeah, this is an old one for sure. When anytime anytime somebody asks you, do they have that in a certain size? And you go, I don't know, man. This is old. That's a flex,

I guess. But I'm not flexing really. I mean, it might be a flex. It is a flex because what you're saying is I mean, I got so many I got I just have pieces. I mean, it's No, but really, it's because it's a matter of fact this

that's an embarrassment of riches. An embarrassment of riches. That's the second one.

That's That's right. We have to brand it. Yeah, that's the second one. Um, we've been talking forever about getting into Kobe and the reactions to Kobe because remember like a week or two ago there was this memorabilia story about a Kobe Bryant card sold for a million, too.

Yes. And we were going to And but like first of all, do you have anything like that in your colle? You must have crazy memorabilia right?

Not as you know what I have. Yeah, I do have I have uh I have a Michael Jordan uh that is when you when you get a jersey signed, you could do this thing called getting it authenticated.

Sure. So I have that authenticated by Upper Deck. He actually signed that. You know, MJ had a camp back in we I worked MJ's camp in 200.

What do you do when you say you worked it? So, funny thing is I was a counselor. So, this what happened. We got all these all Americans, right? And at this time it was it was LeBron, Carmelo, Lu Aling, Indie Eie, Ricky Pauling, TJ Ford, Kurt Hinrich, Chris the year that the McDonald's All-American game was in DC.

And that wasn't McDonald's All-American game. That was that was the Jordan Capital Classic.

Okay, people get that confused. I was just meeting with Deborah Lee and she said the same thing, but it's Jordan Capital Classic. But for whatever reason, I worked the camp and I was a counselor and I went to school. I mean, not not the school. I grew up in the same neighborhood. Jawad Williams, who played at North Carolina, who was a McDonald's All-American [snorts]

he was grew up in my neighborhood. So, long story short, I had the jerseys and I swapped him out of Jersey for his all-american, you know, warmup.

Signed? No, it's not. But I'm saying at the time, I just swapped them out and because I just used to like to have different things, not knowing that I would be at this camp in Santa Barbara. So anyway, here I am around these all-ameans

and I got the McDonald's All-American in my in my suitcase. We hanging out. We working the camp. Guess who was on my team? I was a counselor.

Lil Romeo was on my team and Marcus Jordan. There was kids. So I had the Jordan jersey signed there. And then I got Kobe's last jersey that he wore in Cleveland. Lo and behold, Kobe comes out the thing. You know, he's not really I think he switched some shoes with LJ or something like that. And I'm not thinking nothing of it, but I asked him during the game. I was like, "Cob, if you can, cuz you know, if you can,

I would like to get that jersey." Yeah. So, he come out and he's walking like two security guards. whatever and he's like, "Yo, Rich." And he had it like over his thing and he had it literally signed to me and I had that hanging up. So that's pretty cool. So

those are probably valuable. Very valuable. And I have some other things for sure. But I used to like when I was a kid, I had baseball cards. I have some valuable baseball cards just cuz I'm old now. So when you know I was young, you know, when you're enough time has passed that this guy's rookie is worth a lot or that guy's rookie.

We used to do that. There was nothing. I had gotten to that phase of the card thing.

Yeah. And we used to go to every store and I m it's you know what those card things is like buying scratch offs.

You know how you buy you got to see what you get. You're not winning but I'm buying the Fleer, I'm buying the Tops. I'm buying all these different and it's like I got like

I don't know in there. It wasn't a Michael Jordan rookie that's for sure. Right.

I had like basketball. Yeah, I had like Vern Fleming. Yeah, but I like Vern Fleming.

My most my most treasured piece of memorabilia is probably not worth anything is but it's my favorite. I have it framed is when my brother and I, my brother Sam and I went to uh the Subway Series in New York in the 50s, 40s and 50s, Yankees versus either the Dodgers or Giants every year, right? So, it's called the Subway Series. people took the subway to either Yankee Stadium or Ebottzfield or the Polo Grounds. That hadn't happened in what whatever it was from 1947 until sorry 1957 until 19 2000 whenever the subway series was between the Yankees and Mets. So, we're we're taking the train. We take the six up to uh or whatever that was it the four up to uh Yankee Stadium and in the subway station there are these signs subway like during subway series whatever whatever but it said subway series on it. So, my brother tears one down. So, I tore one down. I still have it. It's like the it was up in Yeah.

Yeah. If you can get it signed, it'd be even cooler. Signed by who? The sub the MTA. Who am I going to get it signed by? Well, if it was get it signed by a Met or a Yankee.

Yeah. From back then, you'd have to get it signed by everybody in the That was actually the Clemens Piaza game where Clemens throws

Roger Clemen signed it. I thought I would think that Kobe um card is going to go up. They pay how much? 1.2 million.

It's a rookie card. I don't you know I don't know what it is. I It must be. But anyway, it led me to think about Kobe

because this is like ongoing in sports. There's some big classic sports debates, right?

It's MJ or LeBron now. It's it's uh was it more Bellichic or Brady, right? Like there are these classic debates in this century, in the 21st century.

And when people talk about MJ and LeBron, there's always someone who's going to say, "Oh, what about Kobe? In other words, he has to be considered among the top three of all time. And then there are other people who say he's not even top 10.

Well, that's ridiculous. By the way, I don't know that it's I don't know that either position is ridiculous, but that's that's what the go. First of all, hold on. Hold on.

Yeah. Saying Kobe Bryant is not in the top 10 is ridiculous. Well, I mean, I could name players for whom there are arguments against Kobe. How? In what manner?

Well, MJ, LeBron, you would say. Okay. So, now after MJ and LeBron, you have the bigs.

There are a lot of bigs. For example, Bill Russell. Here are the bigs that could be named in the that should be in the top five.

How are you doing this? Is this based upon what? Skill set. You can't ever do it based upon skill set because skills always improve every generation. So, that eliminates all the old players. Well, Kobe's skills is any generation. No doubt. He could have played with George Mikin. Yep. Or he could have played with

or today or whenever. Yeah. Whoever. Yeah. Of course. So, what he So, and Bill Russell's skills skills aren't going to but that's like in the one sport that you can measure objectively. This is the difference between better and greater. You can time track and field, right? You can see what someone runs in the hundred, right? In the in the hundred yard dash. You can then compare their times across eras and say they are always getting better. Right? So Jesse Owens is not one of the 10 or 20 best sprinters ever. But he you can't say that the 10th best sprinter in the world today who has a better time than Jesse Owens is a greater sprinter than Jesse Owens.

That's fair. So I'm talking great. Yeah. But okay. And greatness. Go ahead. I'll let you finish your point.

Bill Russell got 11 rings as a player. Yeah. Yeah, but for some some reason that that that don't that doesn't we don't

you can discount it, but even if you discount it, what are you going to call it? Five or six. You know,

I'm not discounting, right? But so people seem to discount it. Bill Russell. So I'm just saying here are the bigs that you can make an argument need to be top five.

There's not a lot of spaces in the top five. Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, Kareem Abdul Jabar, Shaquille O'Neal. Okay, those four all have good arguments that that should be one of the top five or six players who ever lived. Okay, now you have MJ and LeBron. So now already you have six dudes who you look Kobe and Shaq played on the same team. Shaq was was, you know, if you had to compare them, you would rather have Shaq back then when they played in more or less in their primes on the same team.

Shaq was extremely dominant, so you can't you can't you can't deny that. And back then having a a a big as dominant as Shaq, the game was played inside out.

No doubt. So, and also Kobe would get him through by the Spurs, let's say, and that was really the championship and then Shaq would dominate in the finals against a team that really wouldn't have beaten the Spurs even to So, I get that. I'm just saying it's not unreasonable to argue Shaq over Kobe. That's not an unreasonable position. So once you because if two dudes play together when they're both more or less in their primes and one dude it was the MVP was the MVP of the finals was the first option on offense was like all these things it's I'm not saying that I would put Shaq over Kobe. I'm saying it is not an unreasonable

thing I would argue against is the first option part is because of how the game was played.

Okay. But that was the fact of the matter right and then and even when Shaq left he won another ring with D. weighed, right? Like, you know, so

yeah, the game was still played a it was starting to change, but no doubt still inside out

and that that affects things. I'm not putting Shaq over Kobe necessarily. I'm saying to for people to say that's ridiculous to put Shaq over Kobe. It's ridiculous to say that. Okay,

I said it's ridiculous not to have Kobe in your top 10. Okay, so let's So, so I'm saying here's how it gets there. MJ, LeBron, not ridiculous to put over Kobe. You could I mean MJ for sure. LeBron I would also put over Kobe but not ridiculous for someone to put M LeBron over Kobe, right? The bigs because if you put Shaq over Kobe, which is not unreasonable, you might put put Bill Russell who's the biggest winner of all time over Shaq. Same thing with Wilt Chamberlain who was like the original Shaq. So now already I just mentioned five dudes. Same thing with Kareem.

This is why I don't like dudes. But this is why I don't like lists because cuz it forces you to make some decision.

But as you're naming all these names, it's hard to compare first of all era from era and era and era.

Sure. Right. As you're naming all these names, the thing that's coming to me is like just as a historian of the game and somebody who has a profound respect for those that came before every other, you know, era of of superstars or generations of superstars, you it's just tough because

of course that's why it's interesting and it's tough without without it's hard for me because it's like how can I name these guys without feeling like I'm disrespecting.

Right. So that's why when you say or when people say you're not the only one, you have to put Kobe in the top 10, it's disrespectful not to have him. I get that. But then there are 10 other dudes. One of them you're going to be disrespecting to put Kobe in there. My point is let's just I'm just going to go through to show you how you can get there. Okay, I named six where it's not outrageous that you have Kobe 7. Okay, so then there's Magic and Bird. Magic and Bird you. Here's the argument for Kobe. Kobe was their equal on in terms of his offensive impact. I don't mean scoring. I mean overall offensive impact. And he was a better defender.

So, you should put Kobe ahead of those dudes. On the flip side, Magic and Bird always made everyone around them better. Kobe didn't always do that. So, I'm not saying necessarily that you need to put Magic and Bird and or Bird over Kobe. I'm saying that is not an outrageous position.

Can I ask a question? Either way, so now I'm up to eight dudes, right? And again, and if none of that's outrageous.

No. Right. But I have to push back against that because Kobe did what the team called for him to do.

Because if you're saying Magic and Bird made other guys better, which they did, they did

but they also played with guys that you know, you had the Showtime Lakers. Yeah.

And the Celtics were Celtics. Now once Kobe got gass and that team different dynamic

I agree you could I thought he was better at playmaking but he's a naturalb born scoreer and the thing you know you know the one thing I love about Kobe that I really loved about Kobe and this is about Mike as well too um and it's differentiate everybody's different is the mentality that they had which was a it was a psychological warfare,

right? And I hear everybody talk about, oh, the mamba mentality and things of that nature. Well, that wasn't the case when he was around, right? And he only really dealt with very few people. Um, but he never allowed you to get familiar with him,

right? So therefore, because ultimately familiarity breeds disrespect and that's it attributes to a lot of what you saw later on and still currently today it's like when you when you go to dinner with somebody all the time or you feel like you see somebody and they speak to you after a while it's like oh that's just Max,

right? But if I see you nine times and you don't speak to me and the 10th time you speak to me,

oh, it's a big deal. It's a big deal. Yeah, that's Mike and Kobe, right? But Well, okay. No, I get it. I'm saying that you said, "How could you not have Kobe in the top 10?"

Yes. There's KD who as a scorer is virtually unparalleled. He could score from anywhere, right? and as was a better Kobe was a but he was a better percentage scorer than Kobe. He shot it better and he's much taller. Okay, so that that that's an advantage. He also became

We don't like to say he's 7 feet tall. So I won't say 7t tall. I'm going to say he's 6'11 plus.

Right. So and to be like that. So So do I put KD over Kobe? I do not. But if someone wants to make that argument, I can't tell them they're being ridiculous. That's an argument.

But I but I have opinion. And then there's Tim Duncan, who was Kobe's contemporary. And there's lots of strong arguments pro Duncan over Kobe. Now, in the end, I think those two are close, but I'm taking Kobe. I have Kobe in my top 10. My point is, I named 10 guys where you can't say it's ridiculous to put them over Kobe. That's how you don't get him in the top 10. But I But Rich, I disagree with those people. In the end, my assessment is he is in the top 10. I But now let me

Can you say somebody is somebody's contemporary if they don't play the same position?

Yeah, they're still contemporaries. I'm just asking. Yeah, contemporary is just is just timebased,

right? So you want to say a peer maybe you want to compare him to his peer group and that only includes position categories. Yeah. But but let me make the flip side. That's the argument why Kobe's not in the top 10. Let me make the argument why Kobe is in the top three. Right. his if you said who was the most completely skilled player who ever lived, you could easily argue Kobe Bryant who took MJ's game and made technical improvements because he had a blueprint, right? And he was able to work on that and he had every single skill you need.

Well, he studied Mike. He studied them. No question. He also and they had the same slender frame.

They were the same height. They played the same position. They had the same coach.

He had the footwork. Well, I think who was this made a good point. They also played in the same system.

Same is it the triangle? The whole thing. See, the one thing about the triangle and

Cleveland Benedict in basketball, coach Frank Novak, we ran a triangle in in high school, just so you know, Max. All right.

Now, I wasn't a great player by no stretch of imagination, but I dressed well coming out the locker room, but that's neither here nor there.

Until the Warriors came out with that five out stuff. triangle was like but what I'm saying is what the what the triangle did it simplified everything especially for

when you're ultra dynamic super talented can do all things you kind of need you kind of need training wheels a little bit to kind of slow it down

and it gets you in spots where it's not so much about you couldn't still have the same amount of points it allows you to become more efficient forces you to become efficient and a better teammate because you can use your ISO scoring in service of

it's really a you know it's going to always be a pick and roll on one side and and you know you're coming off a double you know well you're really coming off a

a double down on the other side and then it goes into a pick and roll. So you you're going to always have this balance on the floor, which if you're Kobe or or Mike in that instance when you're playing in the triangle, if you get to that spot where you have a 18-footer, you can post. If they draw two, you kick and that's why Mike was so he could kick to Paxton, he could kick to Armstrong, he could kick to because once you bring that help over, everything rotates and and you have a shooter on that other side.

So that matters. So there's never been two superstars more similar in any sport ever.

LJ was more similar to Magic. But but but but like Kobe playing the same position, the same height, copying Jordan, trying to add to it, same coach, same system.

Well, actually LJ was a little bit different. He had all of those people. Yeah.

Mike, Magic Penny. He was Mike and Magic had a baby. That was how I saw it coming out of coming out of high school.

But my point is with Kobe, the arg there's an argument, not top 10. There's an argument. Look, he's basically a clone of MJ. Now, the difficulty, he can't get to number one because when you compare them, there are ways to compare them directly. MJ wins more champions.

More skill between Kobe because he built on MJ, but marginally, but MJ had better results in his league. He won more championships. Every analytic says he was better offensively and defensively. He scored more points. He was always the number one option. He won more every finals MVP he ever played, etc., etc. So, so Kobe runs into MJ as I I brought this up. I think people misuse the word emulate when they mean to say imitate, right? Emulate really means when you when you try to do something better than the original. Kobe really tried to emulate MJ. He didn't quite get there, but it it it was gutsy for him to do it, but it runs into a problem for him in terms of ever being ranked number one. But my point is Kobe could be ranked as high as number two ever or as low as like 11.

That's the range to me for Kobe. See, the way I like to do this is, and again, I think when you I think most people just in society looks at things and be like, "Oh man, I'm not going to copy that or I'm going to do it my own way."

Yeah. Well, to me, that's idiotic because why wouldn't if I see something great and I have the ability

to get even close to that greatness, why wouldn't I do that? That is that is the but this is how society makes

but that's what but that but that's why your dude that's why LeBron so I would say I would say M uh Magic and Bird ushered in the modern era of NBA because they came along at the same time that the ABA was absorbed into the NBA the three-point shot the game changed right TV contracts came in everyone paid attention MJ was the greatest player of that modern era Kobe came closest to MJ in the modern era. To me, LeBron was the first kind of [clears throat] post-modern player in the sense that he was the first guy to come along at that level and say, "I'm not just going to do MJ.

I'm I'm not going to try to I'm doing something new." He combined magic and MJ. He combined the the the cursed mentality with the ability to play above the rim and score and do everything. thing you said that because

you also get criticized for not doing it the way as others has once done it as well by the by whomever but still in I I would say

all those guys you're naming they added to our game in so many different ways. Where do you have Kobe ranked? Where would you rank him in the end?

I have Kobe ranked in my top three. So it's MJ or you for you it's LeBron MJ Kobe.

No, it's whoever you take give me the other guy. If you take LeBron, great. I'll take Mike or Kobe. If you take Mike, I'll take Kobe comparison. If you take Kobe, I'll take in a comparison to Jordan. Kobe's a is not quite there. Like they're exactly the same except one's a little better than the other one. I don't see how you could say like if if Kobe and Mike are available, you got to take Mike. If I'm starting a basketball team, yeah, I'm taking LeBron number one overall. There's no if, eds, or buts.

That's how I feel about MJ. Yes. If I want someone to take, and I know LJ's statistics are off the charts even with this as well.

Yeah. If I if I want the single last shot, I'm taking Michael Jordan, right? No question about it. In Kobe's case, when it comes to Kobe, again, I could do either one. [clears throat]

So, when I when people talk to me about the goat conversation, and I said this before, you know, I I felt like the only separation for me, and this is not me putting my Mr. Bias hat on, is everyone else didn't have the expectation.

That's true. So, well, not since Kareem, not since Lou Alindor had expectations been like that for a guy.

You you're already coming behind greatness. Right. Right. And then on top of that, if you don't if you fall short in any capacity, it's a failure. And and short is if you never win a championship, if you just

maybe only win one championship. if you if you you know like if you're not in the GOAT conversation. Yeah.

So for me that's the thing that separates. But if we're just talking basketball in general, I'm the type of guy. Hey, take who who you want cuz I'mma build a I'm who you take versus who I'm able to take will allow me to build my team a different way. You have to build a team differently for all those guys.

Slightly different than you. I would say if you're starting with nothing and you just want to get a team as close as possible to a championship, no matter who else you have starting a team,

I'm taking LeBron because I'm cuz he can take the least more or less. Yes. But if I have even one other allar on the team, give me MJ because anytime he had that, he he never didn't win the championship in under six games. In under seven games, rather. Like if you just if you gave Mike something to work with, he was going to kill you. But but he couldn't drag a team of non-allars to the finals. Like LeBron could drag a team of non-allars to the finals, but LeBron could also play with allstars and not win the finals. You gave MJ allstars, it's a wrap. It's a wrap. He was going to win. And he not only was he going to win, you weren't going to take him seven games. So So that's So that depends on what you're trying to do there. But Kobe,

one team would have went seven games in the in in what? In the finals with my team.

They just never had a chance to play. Who? The Rockets. Maybe. Maybe they go seven. Maybe. I mean, they the Knicks almost got them in six.

No, but what I'm saying is I think that team was just built. It was It was It was constructed

to to try to counteract it. people put, you know, like we could put a stat around everything, but

it's just matchups. As you know, the playoffs are always about matchups. But again,

I like where you're at in the top three. This idea of top 10, not in the top 10.

No, I'm I'm saying I'm saying Kobe, the possible range of places where you could put Kobe are between two and 11. And I would put him at I made the argument already. And and I would say if if push comes to shove and I have to rank him somewhere, I probably have him around eight because like Bill Russell never lost to game seven in his life, high school college.

See, I can't I can't was he 21 and0 in game seven or something like that. Here's a problem with that. I can't argue against that without it seeming disrespectful to Bill Russell. And I'm never going to disrespect. That's why it sounds disrespectful to Kobe if I said that. But you have But you have to put some context to that.

Got to rank them. You have to put context to it. All right. Listen. Now we're on the record. Yeah. Now we're on the record about this. I wanted to talk about something that you brought up the other day and I don't remember if we did it on the pod or we were behind closed doors. The Olympic team.

What about it? Two years out from the Olympic team. Yeah. Who's on the team? Who's on the the to be Olympic team?

Correct. Oh yeah. We did talk about that. Who's going to be on the team? Who do you think is going to be on the show?

Well, if there's no LeBron Steph or KD, there won't be old. You can't No, no, you can't say that about KD. I've never seen somebody love the hoop more than that guy. So, he might be he might, you know, he could still shoot. So,

KD has been just an incredible player. I mean, just he is he's Mr. Basketball. There's no Mr. Basketball in the NBA, but if it was,

do you know what I really thought? That should be a new award. Mr. Basketball. The Mr. Basketball award.

That's not bad. Um, I really thought he took the next like on Golden State, not because they won championships. They couldn't not have won the championship. They were too stacked. So, to me, like all the credit he gets for winning the Come on, man. You stacked the deck. But what I did see from KD that year was he became an elite defender and an elite passer. I thought I thought he be I thought like no one ever talks about his overall game at Golden State got to absurd levels in my opinion, you know, like he became a guy never think of KD as as as you know this great passer he was on Golden State. He could do everything.

Well, KD's a basketball player, so people can stop whatever KD slander. He's a basketball player.

End of end of discussion. He's a basketball player. Yeah, he may not like this that the third. The man's a basketball player,

right? But I do think there's always a thing with him where like given his ability and his like between talent and skill.

Talent is what you're capable of. Skill is how you refine that, right? Both with KD.

Oh, I was about to say, what are you talking about? Both with KD. Put him like like he should be number one, but he's not normally considered that way.

I never forget while we on the subject of KD. KD might have been a junior in high school and AI used to have this um softball game like a celebrity softball game in DC and we used to all stay at the Ritz 22nd M Ritz. So in the in the in the Ritz there's also um I think it was an equinox in there with a court.

Yeah. So quite naturally you got all these NBA players, current NBA players. It's a court there. People go down to the gym, whatever. So the night before some somewhere we were at and KD pulled up. He was still in high school. So we like, you know, where y'all at? We had to we at the Ritz. Oh, get come through. We play some pickup, whatever. He comes the next day and we and we're everybody's in the gym kind of just hanging out playing pickup. And when everybody

was he 7 feet at the time or 611 plus he was at least 6'9 for sure. But the handle

Yeah. crazy. We like come on man. It's not even fair. This is ridiculous. And he went on to do whatever. But at that very moment, he could have played in the NBA right then and there.

He also like was an influ like guys like Wemi who were doing what they're doing. How could they not have been influenced by KD, you know, by a guy that size doing those things?

You know, like if you see, I like to talk basketball from cities, right? Right. DC and Seattle. When you talking about basketball players,

Mhm. go to DC and go to Seattle. There's guys that's there that's not in the league, I can guarantee you, that are extremely tough. Steve Francis the franchise don't get enough credit because he was insane.

Yeah. Mustsee Stevie franchise for sure. But then you go to the Detroits and the Chicago and the Philadelphia and you have the LA obviously has a ton of so they become products of their environment. So that's how a guy 611 with a pat,

right, like KD, you can have that that. So, okay, so getting back to the Olympic team,

but the Olympic team, if there's no Steph, probably no LeBron, and let's say there's no KD. Let's just say because he'll be 100 at the time. By then, he'll be almost 40. Um,

that's not old. Yeah. Well, let's just say no KD. Okay. France, Germany, Serbia, Canada, all got better and deeper. You and I have discussed the fact that they they play together more. They're they think about this type of stuff more. So the issue is no matter what names the United States puts out there or look at those names, they're still running up against teams, right? And they have to figure out how to be a team. All that said, who is going to be on the American team? So, if I'm looking at the American team, the way I would look at the team, first and foremost, I'm going to start with guys that have a signature shoe because anytime you have a signature shoe, you want to be on that Olympic platform.

I see you're motivated to perform. You want to be on that Olympic platform. But isn't that is Wait, isn't that an impediment to playing together as a team or No, you're saying it's an incentive.

No, it's an incentive. So, okay, I would, this is just how I'm looking at it from my experience.

So, I would say let's take the Nike signature shoe guys. Mhm. Cade, Devin Booker.

LeBron's not there, so he won't play. So, take that finger away. There you Yeah.

So, it's those two and then I I He's not on Nike, but but not going to be on. I'm still But I'm I'm doing Nike right now.

Oh, okay. You're going through the different brands. Okay. But then I'll do the legacy guys that's been on the brand. They may not be signature shoe guys, but they've been on the brand and they've been on the Olympic team for a while now. I'm taking AD if he decides he wants to play.

Okay. So, those are your three Nike guys. All right, I'm going stay in that brand. I'm going to go to Brand Jordan now. So, my Brand Jordan guys going to be Jason Tatum if he decides to play. We all know what what happened. Just four guys. [snorts] And the only other Jordan guy. I won't I won't use his other guy yet. Let's just say those those four guys. Tatum,

Cade, Booker, Booker, AD. Okay. All right. So far so good. Now, let's go to Adidas. [clears throat] For right now, I'm only naming Ant for right now.

So, that's five guys. Okay. Right. Let's go to New Balance. New Balance should have two probably. Tyrese Maxi and Cooper Flag.

Yep. So far, those are seven guys you want on the team. Okay. Those are seven guys.

Yeah. Under Armour, you only have Fox now and he doesn't make the Olympic team. He didn't play before. So

I like Fox, but he not not on the Olympic team. So could be a name, but we'll come back there.

Chad, if you I want Chad on the team. Well, by then especially it's 12. It's 12 spots. So now we only have five left. Oh, I forgot one. Go back to Bran Jordan. Bam. Just eight. He he just won gold medal. He cannot

Bam is really good. Look, I don't I don't want to talk about being disrespectful. I don't want to be These are all excellent players. Disrespectful.

Those are all excellent players. If I'm link thinking about the Olympic team, I'm think about the best players from the United States. And also, you have to think about how they might play together.

But Eric, first first of all, this is this is where Max, you've been on TV for a long time.

Yes. But this is what I do for a living. Okay. Just let me This is just But are you doing it commercially for this? You're trying to win.

I'm doing it matterof factly. And you're saying this is the reality. This is what's this is this is I'm breaking it down. I'm not being biased here. I name guys [clears throat] that I represent that I'm not placing on the team. So I'm not being biased. I'm being honest.

I'm just saying when you project out two years of what chat is going to be in two years versus what Bam might be. I am not knocking chat.

Yeah. But Eric Sper's the coach. Mhm. Bam. Just won a gold medal. Okay. And I see what you mean.

But also, you need Brolic. Yeah. Yeah. You need you need some some muscle. There's eight guys.

There's four spots left. There's four spots left. Right now, out of those four spots, if we wanted to just have a pool,

Donovan Mitchell, you could say Donovan, but where does he fit amongst the guards

there? Do you have a a crowded back court? Oh, uh um you can say Donovan. You can say Darius. You can say I'm sorry. Tyrese Hallebertton.

Hallebertton. Hallebertton. Hallebertton. Hallebertton. That's nine. He was on the last team. So [clears throat] got to be there.

So there's only three spots, right? That's nine people. So there's only three spots. And out of those three spots, you know, do you go a extra big?

Probably need it. You You can never have enough wings. Yeah. Right. So now when you think about it from that perspective, if I'm if I know Eric Spolra,

you got to see how the some of these recent draft picks pan out by 100%. Yeah. But also, you got guys that you know, right? Like shooting matters,

right? in the Olympics. It just does. You got to be able to make shots in the Olympics. So, I'm going to go way out on a limb here when you talk about your guard play. We'll put a pool of guards. We'll pull a pool of wings and a small pool of bigs. All right.

Now, I'm not saying that these guys just here the candidates. So, you want to put Donovan in that in that situation.

Y do you put Brunson in that situation? Y Okay. Yeah, as a matter of fact, I don't see how you can avoid Brunson.

Well, you can because of size, but Brunson's so good just on merit. I think he's got to be there.

Okay, so you got 65, you got 66, 68, and who else did we name? Um, I don't know who you're talking about. 68. 68. You're talking about

Kade is 68. Kade Hallebertton 65 is Hallebertton. Uh, Maxi 63. Yeah. Ant 66. Yeah. Is

Yeah. 65. Maybe Booker 66. Uh-huh. Also 65. Maybe 64. But I'm just saying like So where do you

I I don't know. All I know is I think I think it's like you're top 10 with Kobe. I think Brunson's in there by hook or by crook.

Well, you're also a Knicks fan and I love Brunson, but I'm just saying I'm just like on the merits. I think he's got to be in there. And also

I'm not sure because you only got three spots left. All right. Cuz you can make you can make a look, there's nothing but top talent. These guys been on the select team. Garland's been on the select team. Mitchell's been there. Fox has been there. Brunson has been there.

Who are the other bigs? Austin Reeves has been there. Yeah. Right. I'm going to give you a name that you're not even thinking about, but I'm just going to throw it out there.

Okay. Because we're talking about two years from now. Khan Canupal. Yeah. He's, by the way, he's uh just yesterday, I think, fastest to 100 threes made or something like that.

I'm just saying [clears throat] when you think about Oh, here's another name. Jaylen Johnson.

Yeah. See, Jaylen Johnson, I would say Jaylen Brunson. Jaylen Johnson to me is a Yes. Yes.

So, you're saying now you got to get a big So, now you only have one spot left.

Yep. And you need a widebody or someone with some Well, you just said check. But that's the check. Oh. Oh, I see. Yeah, check's got to be there. So, a bam has to be there. You're right. You need some muscle. Yeah. So, so I like to do it one by shoe brands because

Yeah. That's just what I know. If you're thinking about somehow monetizing this whole thing.

No, I'm just saying it's just if you if you're a star player with a signature shoe,

I mean, you want that platform in the Olympics. Your partners want that platform for you, etc. Um, and then we haven't even gave guys like Jaylen Brown, Aman Thompson. I'm just saying like

if you want shooting, you're not going to take Thompson. And you got enough guys who

But defense wins championships. You have to look at But I say all that to say we just name Oh, we didn't name Castle.

No, I'm saying that's why you have to see two years from now. What's this? But this is why

Harper and all these guys like you got to see what what it turns into. But what I'm saying is the league is in good shape. First of all, we just named all these people that we that we and it's and it's more, right? We just we didn't name Paulo,

right? There's a lot of guys. Paulo's What you mean? No, no, no. I'm no question. I'm just saying there aren't infinite spots.

So, there's going to be But but again, we're also not thinking about the guys is in LA. These guys live in LA. Do I want to play on the Do I want to do I want to travel all these different places to come back there.

So, you got to have guys who want to be there. And that's that's Grant's biggest job. It's like, hey,

cuz it sounds good right now, right? You don't know if somebody's wife becomes pregnant. You don't know if

family is a fine. Like to me like when you talk start talking about candidates that's like almost like alternates that you need to see if ideally you have your list and then you have guys who you plug in if this guy doesn't want to do it or that guy gets hurt or or whatever.

Yeah. I mean there's there's I'm just thinking about the the talent within the league, the young talent. And then here's the other thing about the the the Olympic team. Talent is one thing. You can have all the talent that if that you want, but you also have to be willing to sacrifice because the the the the Olympic team humbles you in a lot of ways. I mean, you look at Tyrese Hallebertton, the type of person he was allowed him to sit there on that team and get DMPS the whole time, but yet and still, like he said, you know, I got an A on the on the team project and I didn't really do much. But that experience, right, the following year he went to the finals,

right? So there is there is a lot of value to being there, especially when you had the vets on that team that you had with KD, Steph, and LeBron. So once they get through the talent pool, now you have to then start aligning with the character of these guys and are they and you have to ask these questions. Hey, if you're on the Olympic team, are you willing to be on this team and not play? cuz you know I was there when LeBron Melo and D Wayade D Wayade actually played a little bit more [clears throat] and and with that whole situation which they should have played and they came in I think they finished the worst they they ever finished that time. So there's a lot of sacrifice that also comes with being on the Olympic team. But what I would say to any guys who can play on the Olympic team, the select team, if you get the opportunity, you should definitely do it because it adds something

sure to your professional toolbox, right, going forward in your career, like getting that experience as much as it is about your country. I get that. and that you want to lead with the pride of playing for your country, but there is something that adds to your toolbox of professional

and things have just and things have just changed, man. Like years ago, you could trot out those names and go, that's enough. We should win. Even if the other teams play more like teams, we should win. That's not the case anymore. The guys we just mentioned, I don't know that that we win. I don't know that we win.

Well, you can you can only focus on But here's the thing. You can you don't know. Yeah, right. That's where we are in terms of worldwide basketball. We might not have enough. Even if we take everyone we want to take on the team, we might not win.

Well, the redeemed team, he was like, "Oh, that team is definitely winning." But that's not where we are right now.

But here's what I'm saying. But the redeemed team didn't think that way. They went into that saying, "We're not underestimating anybody."

Yeah. And those guys were were were there the whole time. They they they they you couldn't deny that team. Now you have so much richness of talent. It's going to be less about the talent and it's going to be more about your willingness to to sacrifice. Before we get out of here, um wait, do you do all your Christmas shopping yet? See,

are you are you Let me ask you something. Do you do when was the last time you chose a gift for anyone?

What you mean? I just I do it all the time. you you personally or an assistant or I haven't chosen a gift

all by myself this is an embarrassment of riches this is the third one yeah I don't

and it's a flex no I like to get out there and get to it I like to get out in the field

I don't know what to get people I don't know what to get people I got an off-topic question for you thought that was off topic yeah

yeah when the weather when the weather says there's 100% of rain or there's 50% % of rain or 30% chance of rain. What do you think?

Well, no, I know the answer to this because it's been out there now last year or so. It's that it's that what 30% chance of rain means.

What do you think most people most people think that that it's a 30% chance that you will experience rain? Yes.

But that's actually true because it's over a certain geographical area. 30% of that area will experience rain. Therefore, you're 30% likely to experience rain if you live in that geographical area, depending on where you are. What it doesn't mean is it's only 30% likely to rain anywhere. What it does mean is it it will rain over 30% of the area if I'm getting that correct. That's what I've learned on reals over the last six months or whatever.

I think you cheated. You're not that smart Max. No, I I told you I got it from reals. Something popped up on my on my

That is true. Yeah, I learned that. But I learned that not from reals. From who?

Who did I learn that from? Someone else who saw it on reals. Let's face it. No, I No, I No, I think I learned it from

was it a driver? I learned it from Trust me, he he saw it on. Yeah, I learned it from somebody. But I thought it was very interesting cuz this whole time we grow up and it's like

there's a 30% [clears throat] chance of rain. It's like, oh, it might 70% chance it's not going to rain. Right.

But that also makes sense of why you could be when I was a kid, you could be on one side of the street and it's not raining and it's raining on the other side of the street.

Yeah. That it it makes so much sense. When you asked me about holiday shopping, you know what the problem is?

What? If you if you have kids, if you're Jewish and you have kids, they the the Jews, we made a big mistake when it came to Hanukkah. Okay. Now Christmas used to be know 12 days of Christmas, right? When Coca-Cola commercialized Christmas in this country, it turned into like one day of, you know, commercial extravaganza,

right? Now, the Jewish parents in this country were like, "Okay, our kids are all going to want to do Christmas. It's the greatest day in the world. Look at this thing." Right?

So, Hanukkah is not like an important religious Jewish holiday. It's I think it is an important holiday. It's a secular holiday really that that commemorates, you know, this the struggle and uprising of oppressed people. Like that's all good, but it's not an especially important traditionally day in the Jewish calendar or days in the Jewish calendar. But but the Jewish parents are like, "Aha, we have Hanukkah. It's around the same time as Christmas. That's kind of going to be like our Christmas." They made a fatal mistake, Rich. They were like, "Okay, now Christmas is one day, right? There are eight days of Hanukkah. Kids will get presents on eight days. But what they did without realizing it is they turned the Super Bowl Christmas into the World Series. They diluted it by breaking it up into eight days. Like the reason the World Series could never compete with the Super Bowl is until the deciding

game. It's not for all the marbles. Super Bowls all on one day. Just like Christmas. It's perfect. All on one day.

Well, you even buy for parents. It makes it worse because you got to buy eight nights of gifts for kids. It makes it worse because on eight nights of gifts, one of them is book night. They're not psyched to get the books. When I was a kid, I would get like socks or something. Come on, man.

My dad stopped buying me gifts at like 10 years old, right? So, I never was really big on holidays.

Did you have a Christmas tree at all? Yeah, we had a Christmas tree. Did you have presents wrapped underneath it?

Maybe one. Oh. Whoa. Who did the red? What do you mean before? As a kid? As a kid? When you were a little kid?

Oh, yeah. My dad was Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. We had We had gifts. We had gifts to the It's so I had such a juxiposition in my life.

Cuz I know people be like, "Well, wait a minute. I thought he was It was a It was such a juxiposition."

Um, of what? Of like me, my sister and brother. sister's brother when we in my early ages um even though my mom was struggling my dad made it like a thing. So we would have our own set of of gifts, right? And my friend

store owner. Yeah. My but my friends would come over and they would be like, "Wow, y'all have all these gifts." And you know, my dad my dad was a store owner, but my dad was he was he was he was a man's man. So, but then as I got older, when I say older, I'm talking about like 10, 11, things went like this. And my dad was like, "No, if you if you want certain things that you have to work to go and get it." So, I would spend a night over my my my my uncle my aunt Lyndon and uncle Warren's house or I was always somewhere else during the holiday and people were nice enough to at least have me one box. And again, I you know I'm moving around. I'm getting stuff all throughout the year. So, I really I really wasn't crazy about gifts like that,

right? But it changes when you have kids. So, you I'm saying and I have daughters.

Well, daughters, you're screwed. You know what these girls want? Here's the thing.

Who could possibly know? I can help you with daughters. I have a My daughter's 23 years old. I can help you. It goes in phases.

It goes in phases. I got 17, 14, and 11. Almost 11 now. Yeah. You're on like the the death row of of dude.

I don't know what to get these people. I don't like I don't know what to get anyone. Actually, I don't know what to get anyone.

Here's why you have to do it this right. You actually sit there and think, "My son, I know he'll like this. My daughter, I know she'll like that. None of your assistants or staff or no one does that for you?

Yeah. My my my office helps me like order stuff it. But you're the one who makes the choice of what to get.

Yeah. But but you also have to like they even tell me what they want. I put it in my notes app. Hey, Dad. You know, and and then I and then I can't find out.

The reason why this is important, just like I told you, right now it's Christmas Eve. You have to get this right because tomorrow

we have a slew of NBA games. Oh yes. And you have a slew of NFL games. And remember what I told you.

Yeah. You're going to Florida. You cannot just be there glued to the tube. Well, but this is this is what's interesting right now to me.

If you you know, everyone's like NFL wherever they go, they take over. They're invading, you know.

Well, not this year. Christmas and like, oh, watch out NBA. When I look at the offerings of the NBA versus the NFL, here are the Christmas games. Ready? Here. Let's start with the NFL. Cowboys Commanders.

Cowboys should win. Skip it. It doesn't mean anything. But you still watch the Cowboys.

I'm not watching Cowboys and Commanders. And you got to pay attention to the family. I'm not watching Cowboy Lions and Vikings.

Well, that's a Hold up. Okay, let's go back. Yeah. So, the Cowboys Commanders game you can is a family game. So you don't you can you can barely watch it.

You can put it on wallpaper scam. Yeah. And that's time with the family. Okay. Lions at Vikings.

Time with the family. Okay. Time with the family. The one the one that you might want to watch, but just because you want to check out how the Broncos look is Broncos at Chiefs.

I'm telling you. No Momes. No. Right. Time with the family. Time with the family. Now look at the NBA games. Okay.

Wait a minute. Before you say, does any of those coincide with the NBA games? Like same starting times?

You know, I don't have the schedule in front of me. I know the Cavs play the Knicks at 9:00 a.m. our time.

Cavs at Knicks. 12:00 a.m. your time. I mean 12:00 p.m. your time. Cavs at Knicks.

You have to watch that. That's a mustsee. That's must see. That's cool for me because it's 9:00 a.m. I can

Yeah. Your hometown and my hometown. And by the way, crazy what's happened with the Cavs this year. Like the Knicks and the Cavs look like only two are emerging,

but they the best thing to do in that situation is not to panic. They just have to weather the storm. Back to the can you stand the rain? They just have to stand in the rain.

Right. Spurs at Thunder. Must watch. Must see TV. That is Sorry, but I have to watch this.

That's two. But that's a commercial. Great type of Mavs at Warriors. Now look, Mavs Warriors is not mustsee TV, but

but you want to watch. It's better than anything the NFL is offering. That's number three on the NBA. Rockets at Lakers.

Yeah. Yeah. You're watching that. So now Mavs at Warriors is number four out of the four we've mentioned.

I'll be at dinner. But still better than anything the NFL has. T-Wolves at Nuggets.

You want to see that game, too. So the worst in your Well, here's the thing. Steph Curry against Cooper Flag is the is the worst offering that the NBA gives you on Christmas. That's amazing. That's a that's an amazing lineup. The you could argue I think there are two must-see games. Two I'd like to see games like Cavs at Knicks, Spurs at Thunder. Must see Rockets at Lakers, T- Wolves at Nuggets. Like to see Mavs at Warriors. Yeah, not bad. Yeah. You want to see what Well, the Warriors are always fun to watch.

NBA's eating the NFL's lunch on Christmas. Well, they they paid them back for what they did to the Cold Crush last year.

Yeah. Because last year they came with the Jurgger. Yeah. You couldn't beat that.

No. The Texans. Yeah. Beyonce at halftime. Yeah. That was crazy. Like I mean like

Yeah, that's cheating. Yeah. Goodell. He came with the But damn. Yeah, I know. It's the way it works out, too. But damn, NBA.

But here's the thing. It's a good problem to have. Hopefully, you're not too stuffed by the time cuz I don't get st You get like

Yeah. The holidays. Well, first of all, to be a Jew on Christmas is Chinese food all the way. It's one of the great traditions.

I eat Chinese food every Sunday. Like Christmas is for Jewish people is like it's a it's a great day. Chinese food. Watch the games. It's awesome. So you never had like a

No, but I you go to friends No, you go to friends houses like you get an invite to a to Christmas to friends houses. That's nice, you know, but

it's nice when you don't. Also, did you see Sham's report on the the the the taking?

The taking stuff. Yeah. What's your thoughts there? every so I know what I think but I want

every [clears throat] sport in any game you set up a game with rules competitive players will look to exploit the rules right so like in baseball balls and strikes are there to force the pitcher to throw something hitable to the hitter and to force the hitter to swing at it right but of course that gets manipulated so hitters are looking to draw walks and that makes the game worse because it takes too much time there's no action but that's the exploitation unintended consequence of a rule same thing in the NBA, a foul is there that results in a free throw to incentivize the defensive to to punish the defensive player for not letting the offensive player work, you know, but of course that gets manipulated by offensive players. James Harden, Luca Donuch, they look to draw fouls, right? I mean, everyone does, but especially guys like that. And there's an answer to like the foul free throw thing. You can instruct

your refs, if you think the offensive player is looking for the foul, don't call it. I think that it would make the game better. I really do. I think they should do that. I don't know what to do about tanking. I don't know how you because for example, it's a different sport, but I'm a Giants fan and this is not really a problem in the NFL. I hope the Giants lose every game because at this the season's over. I want to

take Reese. Yeah. or or or trade out of the you can get him trade out of the first, get your linebacker, get a corner, get what whatever you need or tape, you get a lot. You have the number one overall pick and you don't need a quarterback. You can trade down and accumulate draft capital, get three players you want out of that deal. So, I'm incentivized as a fan. What are front officees thinking right in the NBA? Of course. So, I don't know how to take that incentive away from teams to tank.

Here's what I would say. I would say when you're in Adam's position, you always have to try to do things to increasingly protect the integrity of the game,

right? And as much as people would focus on tanking, well, yeah, that's one aspect. Tanking is like you tanking is like going to a friend's house. You're not going to eat everybody's cooking.

Mhm. People tank in different ways. So, what do you mean tank in different ways?

There's a there's a Sam Prey way of Okay. I don't I wouldn't say he tanked. I would say that

he knew this year is a rebuild. Well, yeah. He didn't really he didn't put a focus on winning every game. He put a focus on being a being able to evaluate talent,

right, while losing, but they didn't play. They didn't they didn't just come in and just halfass a game. He was evaluating the talent to a level in which he's seeing guys character traits. He's seeing

Are you saying that prey this makes sense to me, but are you saying that Prey is not focused on losing?

No. But the priority is development. This, this, and this. And if you win the game, great.

You win the game. But if you lose the game, still competing. Yeah, he's you're competing with understanding we don't have enough talent as a collective to win every game or maybe not even to make the playoffs, but we're going to be priority every night,

but we're going to be competitive. We're going to play the right way. He's allowing the coach to work through mistakes. He's allowing his star player to build. So, that was one instance. Hanky in the other case with the process was another way. That's the difference between my mom's macaroni and my aunt's macaroni. It's

clearly Prey's way is preferable. Yeah. I take my mom's macaroni over anybody in the world. But but but but then when you add this dynamic of betting

Mhm. Right. Um, and when you get to the end of the year where, you know, teams aren't aren't necessarily they know they're not going to make the playoffs and things like that, draft picks and and where you sit in the lottery order and things like that be because now we have betting, you have to find different ways to and this is what this is not what I know. This is just what I I suspect. I I didn't I didn't get your analysis. have not made any calls about this yet to get further updated. I'm just understanding what what what's was out there from yesterday. Um so with that being said, I'm thinking the our league is looking at this holistically and they're saying how can we put things in place that protects us holistically. It's not going to necessarily um it's not going to necessarily take it all the way out. The the the

I don't know how you can legislate tanking out. I don't see how you can do that.

You can't take it all the way. You can, but I haven't figured that But you're going to but you're going to be able to monitor it in a way that keeps the integ integrity of the game because I if if I know anything about Adam and I know what he cares about is the brand of the NBA and the integrity of our game. And that's why I always say to the players,

don't look at yourself as just a player on a team. And I know this is crazy because you're like, well, we're not really. No, you are a partner. You have to look at yourself as a partner because there's a thing called the BRRI which is basketball related income. Everyone has a responsibility and a benefit from that basketball related income.

You want the pie to grow. You want the pie to grow. So your role in the partnership is to come out every night, give your all, represent the team, represent the brand of the league,

talk to the media, all this, all those things matter, right? And when you talk about the faces of the league or the face of the league, it comes with a lot of responsibility night in and night out. We just seen LeBron the other day say, "Well, although I'm honored to play on Christmas Day, with my family and that causes

when you are the but when you are the face of the league your response your responsibility to being that face of the league is the marquee yeah you're going to play

you have a problem with LeBron saying that or you think he's just being honest listen LeBron is in year 23 right he's earned the right

to he could have a sleeping bag on the bench for all I care people talk about him eating fruit during a Listen and I'm not just again when it talks when you talk about critique and you I don't sugarcoat anything for any of

we talked on this show about I didn't like how he was fratonizing with the Phoenix Suns on in that game that either Yeah. Right. We said we talked about it. So we move on but but he's earned the right. He's not saying that. It's It's not like he's being um what you call it like uh I forget the name, but it's not like he's it's not like he's brushing it off. He's just saying, "Hey, you know,

he's just answering a question on it." Honestly, but if you asking me how I honestly feel, it's my 21st Christmas Day game.

So, so wait a minute. So, so how do do you have an opinion on how to try to fight against tanking? Are there any you you can't legislate it out totally, but

I've always said I feel like holistically we should have thresholds as it pertains to every organization. And I think that you know as I talk to people around the league, whether it's at an ownership level, whether it's at a president level, GM level, etc. I will say to you, everyone every day is trying to figure out how to be better as an organization, putting product on the floor and just with everything else from medical to to to are we using AI to our benefit, everything. So, I'm not saying that I I don't know if there's a world where I have an answer for for for that.

I will say it depends on how you're approaching it. If you're approaching it from a development perspective, I think that is positive for the league. I think that, you know, with with everything that's happening in youth sports and the fact that youth sports in America is broken, it is broken. The more development you can get, the better. So, if we're in the lane of development, that's one thing. If you're just trying to get however many picks, then that's a whole another conversation.

His report was no team can be in the top four two years in a row. Okay. New pick protection rules and locking positions after March 1st. Like I, you know, I mean, I don't know. I don't know if

I don't even like that top four two years in a row because what if you made a deal

like you know like I think the number even more than tanking the problem the league has is player movement is actually not fluid enough because you have to match contracts exactly.

Well, that's that's the second apron issue right there. But what I'm with that what Sham's reported what was that yesterday. In the event you won't get all of that. That's just like kind of throwing out probably what they're talking about. I imagine.

Yeah. Um and I missed this call this morning, but but I imagine that's what it is. And I know it wasn't nothing important because there was no text followup. So, but yeah, I think you would get some of something. You're not gonna get all and I don't like the top four because in that case if you Boston hell we got Jason Tatum and Jayen Brown two years in a row. I don't know.

So yeah. So it stops good GMs from from exploiting bad GMs as much as it does tanking. So before we get out of here real quick

um Christmas what do you you have plans obviously like where do you do this thing?

Yeah you have kids. What are you doing? It's yeah kids. I watched them open up. Well, again, my kids are like, my son wants money, my other son wants

Send him cash like you're his grandma. My daughter is and I tell my kids like, listen, I told my older kids, get one thing this year.

All right. Okay. One thing we're not we're not doing because the you get stuff all year round. Yeah.

And it's like I never really cared for it to be only about gifts, you know. I do understand. Let's spend some time together. Let's have some some some meaningful conversations at the table and not just be in the phone. We're going to dinner. We're going to go to dinner.

So, that'd be great. And and so we'll we'll we'll spend time together. Well, listen. Merry Christmas.

No. Merry Christmas to you, too. I'll watch games. I'll be I'll be watching games. I'll be watching games.

Day. And when I say all day, I mean all day. Yeah, I'll be I'll be watching games, but I'll also be playing Rummy Cube and interacting. Stranger Things is coming out.

So, I'll watch Stranger Things final season. I Well, here's the thing. How many times can the Can the nose bleed? And she does the P. I watch it with my kids. It's good.

Well, I have to cheat because I've never watched Stranger Things. So, now I have to watch

Oh, you got a lot of watching to do. No, I don't. There's a thing on YouTube that catches you up

that you can catch up to. Yeah. So that way I at least be in the know. I'm not watching three 3500 episodes of Stranger Things. That won't happen.

But I I at least want to be in the know so I can watch it. And then um it's unfortunate that the golf course is closed on on I think it's closed.

Are you addicted? I'm not addicted. I don't like that word addicted. I am very very very acclimated to playing.

Are you obsessed? Do you think about it a lot? like you're driving, you you think about your swing

all the time. Okay, that's I'm watching on my my whole feed. If you open up, you know, it's a you know, when you go to somebody's popular page, you know, that's a very risque type of thing. I found this out when I was at Tik Tok.

Okay. And they were like, "Let's go to your popular Let's go to your your page." Cuz

I'm not on TikTok. I don't know. I'm just saying. But your page says everything. It could be some, you know, it could

Oh, depending on your on what you look at and stuff. Depending on how you think what you look at and [clears throat] what you talk about, it could

it could get a little Yeah. risque. Yeah. But if you go on on my page, you're just going to see golf and you're going to see vintage Porsches.

H that's it pretty much. For some reason on my algorithm, these guys pop up. I'm I'm trying to remember the name of the show and they're talking about what animals would win in a fight. The algorithm knows me.

Yeah, the algorithm knows me. Because you know like jiujitsu or something like Krav Maga but I just like I just like I'm curious about they ask like who would win you know a a pack of hyenas or this you know whatever it is

and and I'm I can't wait to hear the answer what they have to say about it. Did my do-rag lines go away?

Let me see. Still there little bit there little bit. Little bit slight discoloration.

Well, you know what we got to live with I got to live with it. That's it. I wore I you know I think I had my do-agg on for like 36 hours.

That's too long, Rich. I know. But I was distracted. Slept in it, of course. And then woke up and had a whole day and then slept in it again.

It's too much. You know, I didn't have to go to the office. That's why. Merry Christmas.

Merry Christmas. Max must be 21 and over and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with the Kansas Star Casino or 18 and over and present in DC, Kentucky, or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1800 gambler or visit rg-help.com. Call 18887897777 or visit ccpg.org/hat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinemma.org or or call 800327-50 for 247 support in Massachusetts or call 18778-NY or text hopey in New York.

Questions about this episode

What is discussed in "NBA Debates! Plus Christmas Games, and Gifts."?

In order: 0:00 FanDuel, Kobe Bryant, LeBron, Max Kellerman; 10:00 LeBron, Giants, Kobe Bryant, Shaquille O'Neal; 20:00 LeBron, Kobe Bryant, Tim Duncan; 30:00 LeBron, Corey Booker; 40:00 Nolan H. Brunson, Corey Booker, LeBron, Aman Thompson; 1:00:00 LeBron, Giants, James Harden, Luca Donuch.

What is mentioned in this Game Over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul episode?

32 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including LeBron, Nolan H. Brunson, Will and Ariel Durant, Kobe Bryant, Corey Booker, Tyrese Haliburton. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "NBA Debates! Plus Christmas Games, and Gifts."?

The episode runs 1 h 17 min; the transcript is about 14,715 words in 379 timestamped sections.

More from Game Over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul

About this transcript: the episode's spoken words as captioned on YouTube, split into timestamped sections. Reclip.Me locates every person, work and idea in the text, keeps the time it is first named, and quotes the words around it verbatim. Last updated January 24, 2026.