Transcript

The Nuggets’ Future Without Jokic, Loving the Game, and a LeBron–Jimmy Butler Trade?

From Game Over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul · Episode page · Watch on YouTube

· 1 h · 11,389 words · 271 timestamped sections

This is the full, timestamped transcript of "The Nuggets’ Future Without Jokic, Loving the Game, and a LeBron–Jimmy Butler Trade?", an episode of Game Over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul published January 1, 2026 (1 h, about 11,389 words). It mentions 10 people, works and ideas, including Ben Simmons, Aaron Gordon, Jimmy Butler, Michael De Luca, Nikola Jokić.

What is discussed, and when

  1. – 10:00: Aaron Gordon, FanDuel
  2. – 20:00: Aaron Gordon, Steph Curry
  3. – 30:00: Ben Simmons
  4. – 40:00: Ben Simmons, Jimmy Butler
  5. – 50:00: Jimmy Butler, Ben Simmons, FanDuel
  6. – 1:00:00: Jimmy Butler, Ben Simmons

Notable quotes from "The Nuggets’ Future Without Jokic, Loving the Game, and a LeBron–Jimmy Butler Trade?"

  • Game over is presented by FanDuel.
    about FanDuel · at
  • So if Joic would have missed 12 weeks, no Aaron Gordon who's been tremendous for them, no Christian Brawn, maybe they fall out of the playin even and they and so who's in the draft that you were looking at?
    about Aaron Gordon · at
  • Steph Curry's not a good defender, but he's a willing team defender. At least he was when he was younger. Right, Luca? That's disgusting. What I saw last night. Let's be honest. I think he I.
    about Steph Curry · at
  • It's it's it's a mental fatigue. So Cam is not an example of like you also represented Ben Simmons who for a minute looked like the I thought at one point I think I came out on…
    about Ben Simmons · at
  • Just had this conversation. Me, Draymond, Dean Anthony Melton, and Jimmy Butler were talking and this was an opportunity for me to ask them and I did. And I said, obviously I represent Draymond. I do not represent.
    about Jimmy Butler · at

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

Companies & orgs

Full transcript with timestamps

I got some [ __ ] for you on LeBron and but but we're going to get into that. Wait a minute. But before here's the thing.

Yeah. I doubled down already on this and I'm tripling down on this already. All right.

I'm not changing my mind about I want Michael Jordan to take the last shot. Yes. Oh. Oh, people are giving you stuff.

No. No. I'm just saying because you starts this stuff and then you get and then you get people all riled up when you ask these questions.

I'm tripling down. All right. So it's clear. And I saw somebody say, "Oh, it's kind of weird." What's weird? Like you think

Well, from afar, people make assumptions about you. Yeah. But I think people think we sit in a room and it's just like, "Oh, let me sit back and just agree with everything somebody says because of what? Because like that's not how we ever lived our lives ever. I wouldn't even, by the way, I wouldn't even be in the position I'm in. I would have never gotten the opportunity I I got without being authentic and genuine. It does not work."

Yeah. And you don't want yes men around you either because I've never been one and won't ever be one.

Right. But with that being said, you ask me who do I want to take the last shot?

It's Michael Jeffrey Jordan, born February 17th, 1963 in Brooklyn, New York. Okay. Now, who do I want to make the play? It's LeBron Ramon James. Mhm.

Born December 30th, 1984. I mean, you had to get that right cuz his birthday was yesterday and you got right.

Yeah. But I'm just telling you. So when people say, "Oh, it's weird." Just there's nothing weird. Everyone has their own opinion and I definitely have mine. And

by the way, I want Michael Jordan doing everything at the end of the game. Make the decision with the ball, score.

That's not true. Yes, I do. Yes, I do. LeBron is the best decision maker to ever play the game. There's no

Michael Jordan went six for six. Never went to a seventh game. Gave the ball up when he needed to. Hit the shot when he needed to.

I think Michael Jordan would say I want LeBron initiating the play. Oh yeah. And making the right play.

Would I like LeBron to be on ball as the point guard and Michael be off ball? Sure.

If you ask any Michael to have the ball. Yeah. I want I want LeBron. I want that ball in his hands and I want things to be executed to get guys in spots and play to their strengths. That's it. And if Michael can get to that 18-footer where he's square with that beautiful follow through and LeBron's going to deliver it on time and on target and guess what? We, not I, are going to win.

Well, look, we are going to win. I'll tell how's this one and then we can get into clear

but I don't like I don't on my alltime team you know everyone puts their alltime team together and nowadays a lot of the kids like Steph over Magic which not me but okay LeBron is actually my point guard on my alltime team I'm playing LeBron yeah on my alltime team I'll take LeBron James at the point MJ at the two and then you can talk about the three being Bird or Duncan

here's the thing like I always said and I want to end this please so we can get on with our show.

Yes. We get bogged down in MJ LeBron. It's hard to not disrespect the pioneers of our game. Yeah. So when you have these type of conversations, barbershop talk type of conversations, they just go like

all over the place. People confuse better with greater. Of course, the athletes today are better. They built on what came before them.

Yeah. But you also don't have to necessarily make it about one thing or one person or tear somebody down or just like, you know, people get crazy. But that's part of being a fanatic fan. I understand that. But if you listen, when you talk about the last shot versus best player or you want the ball in this person's hands, we are a team. I think people think these guys just play by themselves on the court. That's not true.

Did LeBron give you give you a [ __ ] about the thing? Did he hear anything about it? Has he commented to you about anything you said on this show so far?

No, not at all. Not at all. We don't That's the thing. Like we don't Nobody's tripping on that.

Right. Right. I know, right? And do you if if you sat at a card table with us Mhm.

you would say, "Did these guys spend 24 years together? They're going at each other. We don't play that. We don't do that.

If you don't if you're not going at each other, you don't really have a relationship."

And and there's accountability every which way, right? Period. That's just from from from all of us. By the way, that's that's that's how we got here. So,

Max Kellerman, Rich Paul, game over. Please subscribe. You see, I added the Please.

I don't I I can't do it. Well, it's a new year, Max. I need you to have a different mindset. New year. Game over is presented by FanDuel. FanDuel's got it all. Same game parlays, quick bets for jumping in live and your way so you can build the bet that fits your play. Plus, don't miss out on holiday offers and surprises all month long. Download the FanDuel app or head to fanduel.com/gameover. To get started, 21 and over and present in select states or 18 and over and present in DC, Kentucky, or Wyoming. Gambling problem? Call 1800gambler or visit rg-help.com.

Call 1888789777 or visit ccpg.org/hat in Connecticut Monday against the Heat. I can't believe this happened the day before yesterday. If someone would have said offhand when did Joic hurt himself, I'd have said five or six days ago. I'd have said like almost a week ago. I was I was like it happened on Monday.

It did. Yeah, I saw uh he hyperextends his knee and you know there there's the what it mean Joic is now not going to be eligible to win the MVP, right?

Sucks. He is one of only I looked this up. Look, LeBron deserved so many MVPs he didn't get. MJ MJ deserved 10 MVPs. It's ridiculous that he didn't get 10. And LeBron's probably should have gotten seven at least.

He should have got seven. Yeah. Right. You'll get you and and one defensive player of the year.

Yeah. Yeah. I agree with that. What was that? 2013. And he never would have got unanimous because he did things his way. And people don't like when you do things your way.

So So especially in sports. I looked it up. There are only two players to ever be top five finish sorry finish one or two in the MVP voting for five consecutive years and only and the same two for six consecutive years. So the the only two until Joic came around were Bill Russell and Larry Bird and then Joic joined that group and he was about to join them in the sixth consecutive years of either first or second place finishes in MVP. I felt terrible for him. But the good thing was it looked like a catastrophic injury. It looked like, oh my god, what is this going to change his career and it turns out even as early as yesterday, we thought it could be 12 weeks, right? It turns out it's only going to be four.

What do you think this means for the Nuggets? Well, what I thought it meant when I thought it was going to be 12 weeks, I was like, "Wow, this could be I know they they might not want to hear this, but this could be a blessing in disguise given the fact that if if it was longer." Now, I'm glad it's not longer, but if it was,

how is it how would it have been a blessing in disguise? Well, now you because now a couple things happen. When things happen like someone at the level Jokic gets injured, you have to start to see what your other guys can do. allows you to evaluate even in more of a depth perspective, right,

of guys that's already there. Now, they would had to change the offense because the offense goes through through jokage at the nail and he does a lot of different things uh in ball screens and things like that. He's just so dynamic. But then secondly, I'm thinking about now wait a minute. This team is already who they are. This current draft coming up is loaded. So if Joic would have missed 12 weeks, no Aaron Gordon who's been tremendous for them, no Christian Brawn, maybe they fall out of the playin even and they and so who's in the draft that you were looking at?

I mean, this draft is is is is loaded to the point to and and again, you're not you're not going to get up to the point to where you get Well, you just never know because

yeah, it's the NBA. It's the NBA. In the event you get lucky and you get up there and you able to get a Peterson or a Caleb Wilson or even AJ or or just a you know another 65 Braden Burries. Uh

but let's say you're 15 to 20 something like that. Then you're looking at somebody like Isaiah Harwell.

It's a name you probably Don't jump off the Right. Sure. But when you talk about what he would bring to the tape, six 66 defender that can hit a shot, like you need high IQ guy, low ego guy, like you need those type of guys around your star players. People always think about, okay, let me go and get these names. Well, you have to think about a couple things. When I have a guy like Jokic and I have Murray,

I got my two pillars right now. All I'm trying to I'm trying to figure out, okay, if we bring this guy in our locker room, one, does he fit in with the team,

right? Two, are they able to buy in to how we want to play the game? Three, are they going to embrace the role, be coachable? That's why when they got Aaron Gordon, it was so like the first thing Aaron Gordon does. This dude, he buys a gym and lives in like he builds an apartment. He lives in a gym that he bought. Soon as I saw that, I was like, "This dude is

think about Aaron Gordon." And you got to you got to tip your hat to him. And this is not Mr. Bias. You got to tip your hat to him.

He was the fourth pick in the draft. Yep. when you are the fourth pick in the draft and this is why

this is why I've brought up Gordon because you're saying the ego you have to fit in and buy in this dude gets winds up on the Nuggets buys a gym lives in the gym and then plays his role

well coming from Orlando where he had to play a different role just like Iala on on now when he comes to the Nuggets he figures it out and when you got a guy like Aaron Gordon you got a guy like Aaron Gordon in the dunker spot

yeah it's But you have a your best player that not only is your best player from a talent perspective, the way Jokic thinks the game.

Yeah. He's going to make the right basketball play at that size things be and then now, okay, Aaron got better with the jump shot.

Yep. With the three ball. He's defensively you start you start building on things.

But that's what I mean. bring in guys like when Golden State acquires Iguadala, who was the number one option in Philly, also a very high draft pick, who's a little miscast. What's that? Yeah, he did. But but but

in Philly, he was a little miscast as a number one option, right? That's not going to be a championship team. But but Iggy winds up in a place where he accepts what he has to do and was hugely import. You know, maybe I'll wind up saying I want Aaron Gordon or something instead of Iguadal. I'll be a meme again. Well, you do want Aaron Gordon. I think I think

anybody wants a healthy Aaron Gordon. No question. But those kind of guy is in the draft. You're saying you can find a high character, helpful guy in the draft at 15 or 20.

And I guarantee you with those type of guys, we've seen them all. We've seen Igodalas. You now seeing the Aaron Gordons. If you think back to some of the championship teams, when you think about the guys that sacrificed, so to speak, came in high, but really st embraced a certain role,

the teammates love them, right? Love them, right? Love them. That's like you're describing the Iguadala or Aaron Gordon move. That kind of move is so underrated. And that's the difference between a team that maybe is good for a year or two like at the top level and a team that can make a dynasty like the the Iguadala Aaron Gordon acquisition is is the most under the radar dynasty building acquisition I think in sports

when you have a guy that was top talent that comes into your culture and that guy is willing to say I'm going to do whatever it takes to help the team win.

I'll give you another one. Michael Thompson, Klay's dad. Michael Thompson was the number one overall pick. He was given he was given him 20 and 12.

He gets traded to the Lakers. Knows he's obviously going to back up Kareem. And he'll tell you like it was the happiest day of his sports life.

Yeah. I tell I tell guys coming in the draft all the time, the sooner you learn the want to embrace a role, that's the very beginning of your long-term career,

right? Guys that come in and don't understand how to embrace a role, they're going to have a short career.

By the way, I'll extend that. A guy like Luca also has to play a role because even though the role he cast is as a star, right? He's cast as the star, the leading man, but there's still things that he has not embraced yet that come along with that role that that if he were to do that, the Lakers would be much better off, including, as Reggie Miller pointed out last night, guys running by. Move your feet on defense. Like, move a foot, do something, show you got to, you know, when when LeBron has been great with the Lakers, it's when like AD challenged him to play defense and all of a sudden the Lakers looked completely different. Even though LeBron's an old man, he was playing defense that that when when that guy will lead by example and that's something that that so what what I'm saying is no matter what role you have, including as the star, you have to fully embrace what comes with that. And it's

like, you know, it's not just the the Iguad dollars or Aaron Gordon's giving up being the the primary scorer on a team or something like that. It's also the star giving up the idea that they can just play their way, right? like they have to make some sacrifices.

Yeah. Normally, it's not the superstar guy that's going to be the all defensive guy.

They have to be all defense. I'm just saying. How about How about some defense?

No, I'm just saying. And even even in LeBron's case, he's none defense, not all defense.

People get on him about the defense today. Yeah. But we've seen it. We've seen the guy.

Yeah. We've seen it. He's 41 years old. I understand if you have to depend on the 41 year old, we're in trouble anyway.

I'm saying prior to that. prior to that. You know, anytime you have a guy like that who can who can switch one through five, you saw in the finals guarding Duncan to Kawhai to Tony Parker to Goi.

You don't have to tell me in what was it 12 or 13 when LeBron went crazy defensively. That was the clo the best defensive player I've ever seen in my life in basketball is Dennis Rodman. Dennis Rodman was the best defensive player I've ever seen. He could legit guard one through five and it was a problem for that player. He had the best defensive and rebounding instincts I've ever seen.

That was a conversation yesterday. What's that? I sent you the clip. Oh, Draymond.

But not to go off on that. Draymond offensively could do more and Draymond changed the game. I thought that was a good topic. No question. We could do it if you want, but defensively, my point is the closest thing I've ever seen to a to Dennis Rodman defensively, it's going to sound funny, was LeBron James that year. It was the LeBron James when he could switch on to onto Derek Rose and like there wasn't there wasn't anything he couldn't do.

But the point I'm saying is I don't want to be too harsh on Luca because I do think Luca will play defense and I also think those are conversations to be had. But again, during the regular season, guys, you know, if if we really broke down everybody's film in terms of the star players that you're asking to score 30 every night, very few of them going to score 30 every night and play defense. This is what makes it so really cuz

the greatest of all time do though, Rich, like like every time there's a white player who's over 6'6 and he can play an overall game, he gets compared to Larry Bird, right? Larry Bird can play defense. I mean, for that era,

but you didn't see every game. I'm talking about I'm talking about Yes, you did. You saw You might not see him be on ball shutting a guy down. But he played smart defense every game.

But what I'm saying is when you are in a playoff setting, right now, defense just takes effort. Effort and energy. One, I get all that. But there is something to be said that if you're asking me to score 35 a night on one end, I'm not saying just be a matador. I'm not saying that. But I am saying we we have to look at everyone's film because it's easy to have revisionist history. And I know a lot of people get on these shows and and they talk about certain things. Now, I'm never going to go against a Hall of Famer. They know what they see, etc. All I'm saying is that's just a conversation, right? And then

the difference between if Luca instead of 35 a night, scored 28 a night, 27 a night, play some at least play heads up defense, team defense, and I think he will.

Austin Reeves is not a good defender, but Austin Reeves is a willing team defender.

I think he will. Steph Curry's not a good defender, but he's a willing team defender. At least he was when he was younger. Right,

Luca? That's disgusting. What I saw last night. Let's be honest. I think he I think let's just call it an off night then if you want to say that but

there have been too many of those men. I want to get into something that that touches on something but I wanted to ask you real quick first because you um

like you brought up guys in the draft who could help the Nuggets if if they're if their standing falls because Joic is out. Let's say it's more than four weeks or something happens.

Christian Brawn also out. They're missing guys. You could and you could get cuz you there's so many 67, 68, 69, 610 guys. You could get a kid and just develop them.

Develop. Look, Scotty Pippen was developed. I mean, he wasn't a shorefire. Oh my god.

So, there's a lot of kids like that. So, let me ask you about that, though, cuz that's the upside. The guys who develop, you know, a lower draft pick. He's not a star. Then there's the flip of that. And and this comes off a news story that Cam Reddish, who signed with a Lithuanian team, didn't stick with a Lithuanian team. Now, I don't know if that means he left cuz he wanted to leave or I mean, I can't imagine he's not good enough to stick in Lithuania, but he's an example of a guy who was a stud in the draft, right? And before the draft yes

it didn't work out. Like, why is it that some guys work out and a guy like Cam Reddish who passes the eyeball test doesn't? This is a tough one for me because I recruited Cam Reddish. I sat on his parents couch, great family. He was always somebody that was just uber uber talented.

I think sometimes, man, sometimes these these young guys, they just get burnt out. It's it's it's a mental fatigue. So Cam is not an example of like you also represented Ben Simmons who for a minute looked like the the I thought at one point I think I came out on first take back then it was like he's the best show in sports, right? Like he's 6'10 with a handle and and and like great passer and he couldn't shoot at all. But that looked like the only thing that was missing from him and all of a sudden it's like he fell off a cliff. So you're not So and it was like he

those are two different scenarios because because the difference is everything that Ben wanted to happen for Ben happened for Ben. He was the number one pick in the draft.

Check that. He was the rookie of the year. Check. He was a perennial all-star. Check.

He was all NBA. Check. And And he got the max contract. He got the second contract.

He got the max contract in Cam's case. One. So he got full. You're saying by the time he got the second deal?

Yeah. Well, you got to think there's two ways to go about this. Either you love what the game brings you or you love the game.

And when you play this game for so long as a kid and you're and most most kids don't say, "Oh, I want to I want to get to the NBA and I want to be great in the NBA for 15 years." No, they dream of making it to the NBA. And so, you're going up that mountain. You're going up that mountain. Some guys get up that mountain and say,

"Well, I think it depends. I think it depends." You're talking about what is your mountain, right?

Yes. But but here's what I'm saying. I want to finish my point. The point I'm trying to make is some guys get there and like, "Okay, good. I got up here. Now I'm going to go back down."

Some guys get there and like, "Okay, now I want to go higher." And that's the difference. Like in Cam's case, I just think I truly believe this and I think Cam again, I watched this kid score 50 of the easiest points. I mean, me and Mav was together and Mav was like, "Damn, that looked easy."

I was sure he was going to be a great NBA scorer. I'm sure he was going to be It did. 69 fluid. But you know when he when he got to college, he got there and he was there with R.J. and he was there with Zion.

Yep. So he was kind of like the third guy that could do something mentally to you just mentally, right? Confidence. Our game is 90% mental. When you get to the NBA that everyone's uber talented.

So wait, you're not So you're saying that Cam it's not an issue of he like he like he didn't love the game?

I don't know. No, I don't think it's the issue of that. I don't know what the issue is. What I sus I'm just giving you what I suspect being in it and and being around all of these kids when since they since they've been young. I'm just giving you the journey. That part happens. Then you go to the draft, right? And you, you know, all this whole time, this why I don't really love mock drafts. You're looking and you're supposed to be a top five pick. Well, you go 10. And not only do you go 10, you go 10 to a team that just took a player that is from your city or from your area that you were supposed to be ranked better than the whole time in front of you at four. DeAndre Hunter

Mhm. went four. So now you got two guys that play the same position on the same team and then you get traded.

You're saying it's circumstance. It's circumstance. How much of it is circumstance and how much of it is

this happens to me evaluating college quarterbacks all the time. I'm horrible at it because I look at them in college like that he's going to be and it doesn't turn out that way. Sometimes it's that what you can do at a certain level of competition like you can hit AAA pitching but in the majors you just can't do it the same way. is I suspect that there's something about Cam Reddish's game that will that just didn't translate on the same level that it looked like it was going to translate when he was in college. You know, because if you're saying it's not an issue of the love of the game,

no. Then I think then you would rise above the circumstance. Yes. But sometimes you need some guys need

with the along with the opportunity a little TLC. They need a little TLC. And the problem with the NBA is or any league for that matter, but especially in the NBA, there's a draft every year. The higher you go in the draft, the higher the expectation. And right away,

right now again, and these kids are coming with very little college or no college. Now,

if I'm a lottery pick, if I'm a lottery pick, two things could happen when you're a lottery pick. you either lottery pick and your team you you know you you're a if you go to a bad team let's just say call it a when I say bad team a team that's not vying for contending in any way you're there the GM that drafted you they're there too right so they picked you they picked you and they're going to want to see you develop they're going to want to invest in you

sure some guys talent and production outlap pass the GM. The GM could change that player still.

But if the GM goes and you're stuck there and or if you get traded to another team, well, that GM didn't draft you, they're taking you back in the trade, they're taking what they call they're taking a flyer on you, but then you have to I want to get back to to the the the mountain, right? Because I think that that metaphor of, you know, so Ben Simmons checks all his and then and then he's full. He's not hungry anymore because he ate everything. He like he he ate he he

he he got it all quick first round pick or number one overall pick, rookie of the year.

Don't forget the $49 million and right the shoe deal and then also the second deal which you get to which is a max deal.

It depends what your mountain is. If your mountain so he's on top of the mountain now he's good if if your mountain some other guys the mountain is the championship let me give you so here's here's something that really stood stands out to me when you talk about the greatest to ever do it for you know because they're levels

I remember reading an article it was like an interview with Derek Jeter in one of the New York tabloids and it was he'd already won five World Series he'd won a World Series MVP he'd never been MVP of a regular season he won a batting crown the thing and they say, "What's the one thing that you want that you don't have in your career?" So, I'm a So, so your brain Oh, that's an interesting question. He's got he's done it all already. He's got ripped off of one MVP. Went to Justin Morno one year. I think that was like 07. Um,

Justin Morno won the MVP over Derek Jeter and and or was it Mau and he was one of those Minnesota Twins? Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

And and and then and there was another year he So, I'm thinking he might say, "Oh, win an MVP." You're like, "What is he going to say?" You know what he said? The one thing he didn't have that he wanted a sixth ring because Derek Jeter, what his mountain is is winning the championship. So So a normal person would think

he's already got championships. He's like, "Yeah, that those are f I want the next championship. His mountain is different than Ben Simmons."

That's okay. But that don't make Ben Here's what I'm saying. That does not make Ben Simmons. See, what we do in sports is we say, "Oh, Ben Simmons need to be like this person." No, Ben Simmons need to be like Ben Simmons.

No, actually, Ben Simmons needed to be like someone else because it's a waste of talent.

No, no, no. That's not necessarily true, Max. Because if you look at what he was able to do in a short span, right, we just checked every box. Rookie of the year, perennial allaround.

Rich, if you're Ben Simmons or if you're his family or if you're in business with Ben, I represent the guy,

right? I get it. You don't think I want him to play longer and more and and his career is not over. That's if you are the team that drafted him or the team that acquired him. You don't want him to be like Ben Simmons. That's the whole point. You want to be like LeBron James. What? Yeah, but

why couldn't he have been like LeBron? But here's what I'm saying. Taller than LeBron.

Here's what I'm saying. That's you as a fan. Yeah. wanting more for you. We don't know what he wanted for him,

but you're seeing it purely from the athletes point of view. And and the athlete the the pool of athletes is several thousand in sports. The pool of fans is tens of millions. Right.

I just want to be clear about something. Including myself. Yes. If it was up to me, I would have wanted him to have a 20-year career. he was that good. But you can't you can't necessarily uh ignore some of the things that took place. You're talking purely from a talent perspective.

No, like a team perspective. If you're figuring out who you want to draft, if you're figuring out who you want to take number one,

if you're figuring out who you want to acquire, you don't want Ben Simmons cuz it's a dead end. Well, you're not going to get a championship.

But here's what I'm saying. You're not saying that on draft day. You're saying that now. Yes, after. But that's I have more information now.

Yeah, but you're playing the cards face up at that point. Ben Simmons career at a certain point died. And what I'm saying is the reason it died, I think based on our conversation, which I find illuminating. The reason it died is because his mountain was not the mountain you want your best player to have. Derek Jeter's mountain goes up infinitely. If you have five chips, the thing you want, you're not thinking about. It's the Damen Lillard line. I love this line. Lillard's a good rapper.

Don't believe that. But don't believe that time is money. Money is time. You stay focused, you look up, and your money is fine, right? Like

100%. And Damen Lillard, even though he didn't win a championship, has that championship mentality. You want a dude like that.

I'm going to tell you this. I remember having a conversation, me and Ben talking. And I had the conversation. I said, "Ben, you got so much left in the tank, bro. So much left in the tank. And by the way, if you just become a pick and roll five at the end of games because you're able to your playmaking ability makes you a different rolling big.

Like we see so many we see so many rolling bigs with low IQ. You actually have a high IQ. So at worst case scenario, if you just become, we know what the defense was.

Bill Walton on wheels, you know, we know it was all first team all defense. Yes.

He could guard all five. If you just become that, were you rolling down the lane, dunk, man rotates over, kick to the If you and perfect 30, you're $30 million a player, just become that,

dude. question. But so what I'm saying is we don't know and until the the the the the book is still open, right? Maybe it comes back.

No, I don't think the book is open. I don't know. I don't know. I like to give all athletes the benefit of the doubt.

But man, so many fans feel like they've been burnt by by Ben Simmons. Oh my god. I If you're a fan of any team he played for, you feel so burnt by this dude. I think the I think again we can there's been injuries that's come to that. There's been a lot of different things that that that that that comes to that.

You told me when we were talking yesterday not everyone loves the game, right? They love the money, right?

You want your you want players on your team as a fan or as a franchise that love the game.

Yeah. want. Listen, I I watched Andrew Binham here in LA and and and Mbiid gets hung with this rap and Embiid's a better version of Bayham, obviously, but but it was especially true of Binham, I thought. He's he was a big actual classically big center, even bigger than a lot of the centers. He had good feet. He had soft hands. He had skills. And I didn't blame him because if you don't love basketball, you don't love basketball. I don't want to talk for him, but and if people are going to pay you tens of millions of dollars to do something, you'd be a fool not to do it. But I always felt like if Andrew Binham loved basketball the way Derek Jeter loved baseball, he'd have been been on the Hall of Fame. Well, guess what? We could say that for everybody, Max. You can say that for everybody.

People always ask me like, "H why does this guy keep playing? What do you mean?" Yeah,

he's in love with the game, right? KD in love with the game. Steph in love with the game. The great ones are in love with the game.

Why would you ever stop playing in the NBA if you didn't have great, there's good, there's super talented, there's just okay. Like, you know, in that case, you want you want all those guys to to to play as many years they possibly can. But

let me ask you, AD in love with the game? Yeah. The reason this is the reason I bring it up okay

everyone's talking Giannis right now because Oh, if he gets moved now, if Giannis were to be moved, the amount of resources it would take for the team acquiring him to get him would be astronomical.

You saying resources, what do you mean? You mean players, draft picks, you know, then what you have to pay,

what they would want. You you So whatever team he moves to, some of the improvement is offset by what they had to give up. And also they're hamstrung going forward a bit because they make that they had a certain amount of

Well, that's what makes it so tricky for for Giannis. Yes. But what I'm saying is they are putting and I think Giannis loves basketball. They're putting he does

they are putting that number on Giannis. Like maybe we're willing to do this because he's perceived as being in the middle of his prime. Um in fact Giannis may only have a year or two left of his prime. Who knows? AD on the other hand, your client, when I watch him, he looks when he's healthy, he looks as good as he ever's. Like, he looks great.

Of course. Yeah. And Oh, but he's only going to play 60 or 65 games. That's been his whole career, 60 or 65 games. So, in my mind, and I know a lot of times this doesn't work out, like don't take the discount on the player who's a little past it or who's more injuryprone. Just spend on the blue chip guy. The Dodgers don't mess around in the bargain bin. They go after Freddy Freeman. They go after Mookie Betts. And the Yankees mess around in the bargain bin and they wind up not as good as the Dodgers. So, I understand that argument, but in this case, you would be paying pennies on the dollar for what you'd have to pay to get Giannis in terms of draft picks and what resources you have to get AD. To me, if I'm with a lot of teams, I'm looking at AD before I'm looking at Giannis for that reason. And it brings to it brings up Chicago, right? Because he's from Chicago.

Does it make sense for AD to go home to go to play where he's from? Does it ever make sense for a player to go and play in the market where he's from?

Well, two things just so I can educate you on this. Okay. when you're when you're a team looking to add a player at the level of Anthony Davis or even a Giannis for that matter, what you're saying to yourself is this guy puts us over the top.

Right. Right. Now you're looking at whatever it takes to get that player where they fit, etc. But but but you're definitely saying this guy puts us over the top. So any team out there that's looking to trade for AD and who's to say Dallas wants to trade him, right? You hear all the media stuff, but there's conversations. But again, if you're looking to move a person, it's all based upon timeline, age, you want to go younger, etc. So it's not a knock necessarily to the player. I think sometimes we look at like you hear your name in trades or people look at guys in trades,

who could use AD is the Lakers. Lakers could use AD. Come on, Max. Max, see, this is what I'm saying. You don't you don't I'm going start charging you for some of the stuff that you do on the show because it reflects on me. Yeah.

When you do these things, I I I'm not speaking for you. I'm speaking for me. Okay.

I can't run a calculation in my mind. You use AD. Any team that wants to win a championship agree use AD. Okay. So, ask your second question about about wanting to play at home. I don't think any player should ever want to play at home

ever. No. LeBron seemed to do pretty good in Cleveland when he went back. He did extremely well, but I'm telling you, I had a front row seat obviously. And it's tough, man. It is tough to play at home for so many reasons that has

went to the finals every year, had the greatest comeback in the history of the NBA against the unbeatable team.

But let me tell you something, he handled it like a champ. But you know who handled it even better than he did?

Who? It's Randy Mims. See, people don't talk about that. Randy Mims handled it like a champ. No question about it. Because everything was on him,

right? And he handled it like a champ. This is why I talk about the ecosystem of of an athlete. Somebody has to want to play that role.

And that role is not the glamorous role, but somebody is an important role. Nevertheless, the reason why I say this is because, man, the NBA season is a roller coaster. Being a guy, especially if you the if if you're a roll guy, you can play at home. Fine. Play at home. If you're a marquee guy, don't play at home because every night it's tickets. Depend on how many family members you got. And for every one family member you got, they got three friends.

Right. Right. a whole other job. These tickets aren't free. Then when you come when you when you leave out that locker room, man, you just may want to go home to your family. You may not want to see nobody, not even your agent for that matter. I just had this conversation. Me, Draymond, uh, Dean Anthony Melton, and Jimmy Butler were talking and this was an opportunity for me to ask them and I did. And I said, you know, obviously I represent Draymond. I do not represent Jimmy. I do not represent

You just said a magic word that reminded me of something, but go ahead. Yeah. But I I asked him a question. I said, "Hey man, take me through the course of your day and and if it's a game day, you know, when do you want to see your representation? Do you want to see the representation before the game, after the game, etc." And they all had different answers. The reason why I asked that is because the league has totally changed. When I first came in the league 24 years ago, it was simple. You go to the game, after the game, you go to a steakhouse, and that was it. Now, they not they don't want to go eat. Guys have chefs. It's a different dynamic.

So, where are you spending their time? I see a lot of people, especially agents, with the I mean, I don't know how many of those earbuds Apple has sold, but everybody got them in. And I talked to so many people today. You can't be talking that much. And it's like when do you want to see you you know anybody for that matter. I was just putting myself in that position to better myself. But I'm saying in in terms of

you know why everyone has chefs now, right? And they used to steakhouse because 24 years ago you were dealing with one level of of player. 24 years later you're dealing with everyone having chefs.

No. I think is I think it's being educated cuz here's the thing guys may come out and you like and you and as a rookie and it's like oh man chef cost 75,000 100 grand depending on what city you live in somebody may say to you that's too much money. There's never that's not if I'm investing in myself

especially since you're going to spend that in the restaurants anyway. Exactly. And you know that that cook at the restaurant or the chef at the restaurant, he hasn't met with your nutritionist on your team to understand what you're allergic to, all those type of things. So anyway, the other part about playing at home that whether you play at home or not that you don't necessarily get to see is now I have to live up not just so much as live up everything is brought with me, right? Everything is brought with me. My high school stuff, my mini league stuff, it's this person. It's just a mess. It's just so much. This is why international players actually have it better

because all that stuff is left behind. They don't have American players come into the NBA weighing more than they actually weigh.

Carrying a lot of weight. It's a lot, man. It's a not to mention often times they have to bring a generation out of poverty too.

Yes. I'm not talking about family. I'm talking about it's just a lot of weight.

Yeah. Period. And that's there's no metric for that. There's no metric for that. And and and you cannot you if you had a broke arm, you got a cast on. Leg, you had a cast on. If you had whiplash, you got a neck brace on, etc. But when your brain is fractured a little bit or even if it's a hairline fracture, we can't see that. And the average person is saying, "I'm good." And from an athlete perspective, they're taught to be macho and you know this and that. Playing at home adds a whole another layer to that.

So you wouldn't want AD to go to Chicago. You saying I'm not getting into any of that.

What you just said, what you just said was if you're a role player, go home. AD is not a role player.

I don't want any marquee player. I wouldn't I can't I can't control it because obviously if they got the money and they want to pay and the guy chooses to want to go there, then great. What I'm saying is I would rather a marquee player not play in his hometown unless unless they could handle everything that comes with it because there are some benefits. It's all based upon how you manage it.

You said a name that reminded me of this topic. I want to get into it. Um Bill Simmons, not Ben Simmons, Bill Simmons. uh

what did Bill do now said said a couple days ago and at first and I I saw it and I was like yeah oh that's fun but you know like let's get back to reality

I know what this is and he even couched it this way he wasn't like this is realistic but he said look the numbers work

LeBron and Steph has have always said that they wanted to play together what about Jimmy Butler for LeBron James so at first I fun you know what I knew you were going to say that I woke up this morning thinking about that after watching the game last night. I slept on it. That trade makes a lot of sense. Rich, talk me out of this one. First of all, LeBron and Luca are a bit redundant. I think less so Jimmy Butler though he's a very high IQ player who can handle the ball and play the point and all that stuff but less so with Luca particularly because Jimmy Butler plays defense and LeBron and Steph would compliment each other very well. I mean we've seen that already. They complement each other very well and Jimmy Butler would bring to the Lakers not only would they get a little younger there. I mean Jimmy's 36 but he's not 41. But he would bring the ruckus to the Lakers that they need. Like someone

needs to cause a problem with with Luca. Luca can't just be if the Lakers gave him the keys to the franchise. He can't just do whatever he wants. If he dribbles the ball to death and doesn't get his teammates involved and plays hero ball and it's James Harden 2.0 and doesn't move his feet on defense, doesn't even make an effort.

What's gotten into you? Did you wake What? What? What? I I I was I What did Luka do to you?

I was disgusted last night. I was disgusted. I was disgusted. It It feels like it. What did Luca How did you wake up on the wrong side of bed? Because Luca should be the best player in the NBA. He should be, but he's not.

He's not. He was precocious. Like, look where he was when he was 22. He should be farther along than And I know he's a great offensive player. So was James Harden. We see that style doesn't win championships. And you gotta have at least pretend to care about defense, right? Jimmy Butler would be Max would confront Luca in the right way in that locker room.

I'm going to need you to be a little more positive in the new year. This is positive.

Here's what I would say to I think it would positively affect everybody. Here's what I would say to you. Because first of all, I'm going on Bill's show. He has to quit with his fantasy basketball.

Why? I don't play fantasy. I know we have FanDuel. Explain to me why that should be fantasy. Fantasy.

Why should it be? The numbers work. LeBron said he wants to play with Steph. Steph, he said he wants to play with LeBron.

Listen, they they just play together in France. Would they not like to play together in the NBA before they're both

I don't know. They were born in the same hospital. I do know that. Did you know that?

I didn't know that. It's unbelievable. Whoever, first of all whoever I think this is true. I'm like 90% sure that this was true because I if you do the timeline I want to say Dell was on the Cavs. The Cavs were playing in Richfield at that time and most players lived in like the Fair Lawn, you know,

area, Bath, Fair Lawn type of area. So that could be true, but we got to fact check that.

Are you avoiding talking about why LeBron and Steph wouldn't work in Golden State?

I'm not avoiding it. Here's what I'm saying. I just want to be clear. Call LeBron. Ask him if he'll go to Golden State. I'm not calling LeBron ask him that. He's at practice. But what I will say is this. You know, Joe Lake's my guy.

Yeah. Joe Lake is my guy. The Warriors unbelievable organization. Yep. Right. I've I have a great relationship and partnership with the Lakers organization. Okay. Now, if you and Bill Simmons want to play fantasy basketball,

well, Bill started it, but he's right. The more I think about it, the more sense it makes.

Okay, but here's what I'm saying. Let's take both of those teams out of it, okay?

And let's just talk about what it actually takes. Okay? It don't take one player for anything. It don't matter. It don't take one player. Based upon what you have from a roster perspective, you have to evaluate that roster and you have to build that both on and off the floor.

Rich, talent and character, everything fits. All the pieces fit. But you still The only thing I could think of, I could think of one reason why it wouldn't happen. Like who says no? Maybe Golden State says Jimmy Butler has more left in the tank than LeBron, so we don't want to give that piece up. On the other hand, Rich,

but he he's 36 years old. They're not doing anything this year. Putting LeBron and Steph together would be amazing for the fans, amazing for the league, and I actually think they would complement each other better. But first of all, I've Draymond wrongfully accused me, I believe, wrongfully accused me of stopping something before, which I never did anything like that.

What was it? It was some when it was the whole the trade talks before about between whom?

Between the the people you're talking about right now, LeBron and St. Draymond maybe you're saying, accused you, it

wouldn't the media couple years back. Yeah. I don't get into that. I don't play anything fant. If you ask any of my friends, does Rich do anything fantasy, they'll tell you no.

I was, you know, I wasn't thinking about Draymond watching two point forwards play on the same team with a point guard who's off ball a lot.

This is why, oh my god, it would it's I I need the more I think about it, the more I need to see it. And the more I think about it, the more I think it actually makes basketball sense for both teams.

Why don't we just play duck duck goose? Rich, you have not explained why it's not realistic

because I don't like to get into that. It's like what's it's not going to happen. So why are we talking about things that's not going to happen?

I don't see why not. Okay. Because by the way, that was my when I first saw Bill Simmons bring it up, I'm like, "Yeah, yeah, haha. It's fun." Yeah. Fantasy basketball. after watching the game last night with the Lakers. The Lakers have to understand they're not going anywhere. Lakers aren't going anywhere. Sorry Lakers fans. They're not going anywhere. And it's because in trouble there too.

They have clearly given the franchise to Luca. This is a guy who refuses to pay to play defense. It is so LeBron and Luca aren't working.

They gave the franchise to anybody. You can they acquired a they acquired a very young talented player.

No question that they can build a team around. So build for the future, right? So build one. Start by adding Jimmy Butler to the mix. Jimmy Butler. Lucer.

How do you know Jimmy Butler wants to go somewhere? You can't just make Jimmy Butler wants to go some go somewhere.

Call Jimmy Butler. I don't know if I have Jimmy Butler's correct number. Maybe I do. I don't know. I have to check.

But I'm sure he's I mean, they play Charlotte tonight. I Listen, I'm not doing any of that. You and Bill

can play fantasy basketball. Okay, Bill. Bill, let's play fantasy basketball. In this case, it happens to be a great idea. Would you admit it's a great idea?

We can you can do that about Okay, let me ask let me ask. Does it make basketball sense for both teams?

I believe anytime you're placing LeBron James on any team, it makes basketball sense.

And does it make basketball sense for Jimmy Butler instead of LeBron to play on the Lakers since he brings defense? I think Jimmy Butler plays basketball the right way to where Jimmy Butler fits on any team right now. I like him on the Golden State Warriors,

but particularly well on a team that needs defensive help on the perimeter. I'm not starting my 2026 off in a fantasy world. I wrote down

I'll take that as a check. That's two checks like you said with Ben Simmons. I wrote down what I want my 2026 to be directed towards and it's not anything fantasy. Who says no to that trade, Golden State or or LA?

I don't know. I don't own either team. I would say I would say Golden State says if if either says no, I think it would be Golden State, but because Butler's 5 years younger, but um All right, listen real quick cuz we've been going we've been going today. Um college football tonight. Huh? Well,

and it happens to feature a team that you're fairly interested in. I'm interested in both teams.

Are you? Yeah. But one is my team. One is your team. Yeah. Yeah. Ohio State. Ohio. The Ohio State University wins tonight, right?

The Ohio State Buckeyes. Yeah. Number one. They win tonight. We don't go Listen, you don't go into any game underestimating anybody. First of all, Miami has a great defense. And you saw what happened to Texas A&M.

Ohio State has a lot of talent, man. They got a lot of talent. Yeah, Ohio State has a great defense, too. But yet and still,

if I'm Ohio State's got guys coming out at the draft in the draft at linebacker and at wide out who are going to go high up, who are in who may not be the best player at their position

and would have him at quarterback if he was eligible to come out. They got a lot.

But here's what I'm saying. on the team might not be the best player. If I'm the University of If I'm the University of Miami, I'm putting that tape on from 2002.

Yep. That they all felt like that should have been theirs. I took Ohio State to win that year.

So did I. But I'm putting that tape on for extra extra, you know, just I think they're going to come out well coached. I think it's going to be a good game, but I do think we win the Buckeyes. Don't punish me. Everybody know I'm a Buckeye fan,

but I do like Ohio State I do like Miami's defense though, man. I do like Miami's defense. It's not going to be It's not going to be a cakewalk for sure.

I think Ohio State wins too. Okay. And then I I mean like we we listen, we've been going at it. You have any New Year's resolutions?

I don't know about resolutions, but again, yeah. Well, you you resolve to be more positive and

Well, I didn't I don't resolve that, by the way. Happiness and you're going to get tred by what I say. Apparently, they're all going to associate what I say.

They always do. You got me. The first ever show we did, you asked me a question. I answered it. I thought I answered it very truthfully. I hope people don't want me to get up here and be just

No, no, you got to be honest. I don't know. I got Yeah, I got to be honest. Got to keep it. People say keep it I keep it 90. 100 is a little much. You got to give yourself a little wiggle room. You keep it 90. As you know, there's certain things I'm gonna say and in most cases I'm gonna give

90. I'm give 90. I'm give 90, but there's going to be some times I can't give give

kids keep it 90. Keep don't keep it a buck. It's too much. Um I want to, you know, happiness, true happiness.

Um got to keep that in the forefront. Um, want to I'm working on my leadership skills thoughtfulness. Um, I wrote them down.

You You more than one. How many? Just do one. Yeah. I mean, no, I'm just saying. Can I tell you my new I do want to I do want to try to travel more for me this year.

You're not going to have time to do that. I know. I mean, I do want to go to at least

I want to take two trips if I can. Mhm. I don't travel that much. Contrary to what people may think, I don't travel that much because I just love to work. I don't I don't really um

but I need but I need to I I've figured out I've broken the code of New Year New Year's resolutions. I like figured it out this year. Finally.

What is it? Well, you know how like people be like, "Oh, I'm going to lose weight this year." And then at the end of the year they didn't do it and then you feel bad.

You told me this already. So, what am I? You're going to tell me I'm not going to lose weight.

No, I want to add to my gut. I'm going to add to my gut. So that way if you see your gut there at the end so at the end of the year my if I'm a little fatter I' I've

But what happen if you lose your little bit of your gut? Okay. So I didn't get my New Year's resolution but I'm in shape. It's win-win

and it's it's hedging a bet. It's smart. I think you're still sick. This is what I This is what I suggest to everybody listening.

You need to get some beekeepers naturals. Hedge your bet with the New Year's resolution.

Fair. See, what are you going to eat? What am I going to eat? Would you like to come over

for New Year's? Yeah. I mean, Ohio State's playing. Get a little Mr. Chow. Yeah, maybe.

Maybe some games on tonight. I was going to I was going to lay low tonight anyway. Yeah.

You drink champagne? I do. Oh, I have some. There it is. Look at that. Yeah, could do that. Easy.

Little little uh little game over game over after game over. Yeah, a little game. You know what we should do?

We should play golf together. I've never played golf in my life. I tell you one thing, that's a game I love.

Mhm. And I'm getting better. Teddy Atlas has a great line about golf. He said where he's from, they swung the golf clubs overhead.

I'll tell you this. If you ever, not that you ever want to. Yeah. If you ever want to buy me anything, don't make it fancy. Golf balls, a a a club cover, towel. It could be just keep it very simple.

Done. Done. It is so hard to get gifts for people who've gotten to the top because they get everything they want themselves. Perfect.

Rich, don't put me in that. Please remember remember to remind me of that. I got a long way to go, brother. I'm not at no top. I got a long way to go Max.

See, Derek Jeter. Derek Jeter. Hey, what do you want, Rich? That you don't already have. You want your sixth ring.

You want your You're focused on the next ring. I want my 10th ring. 10th. Don't believe that time is money. Money is time. You stay focused. You look up and your money is fine. That's why I quote Damian.

Sometimes I send I know Dave is I know I send Dame Bars. Yeah. Because I I respect his craft. Yeah. Yeah.

Does he use it? No, he don't he don't need to use I'm just like I can't put it, you know. I just I you know Yeah.

Yeah. Big fight fan. Dame Lillard, too. Yeah. Yeah. I like Dame Lillard for sure. Game over. Max Kellerman. Rich Paul.

Please. Happy New Year. Happy New Year. Happy New Year. See you guys on Friday.

You want to ask them please to subscribe? I said please. Oh, you did? Yeah. Just now.

Oh, you said please that time. I said please. I was about to say subscribe. I'm proud of you, Max. Already 2026 is going to be a great year.

Look at that. We don't It's coachable. All right. So, I'll see you later on. See you later on. Yeah, let's do it.

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Questions about this episode

What is discussed in "The Nuggets’ Future Without Jokic, Loving the Game, and a LeBron–Jimmy Butler Trade?"?

In order: 0:00 Aaron Gordon, FanDuel; 10:00 Aaron Gordon, Steph Curry; 20:00 Ben Simmons; 30:00 Ben Simmons, Jimmy Butler; 40:00 Jimmy Butler, Ben Simmons, FanDuel; 50:00 Jimmy Butler, Ben Simmons.

What is mentioned in this Game Over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul episode?

10 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Ben Simmons, Aaron Gordon, Jimmy Butler, Michael De Luca, Nikola Jokić, FanDuel. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "The Nuggets’ Future Without Jokic, Loving the Game, and a LeBron–Jimmy Butler Trade?"?

The episode runs 1 h; the transcript is about 11,389 words in 271 timestamped sections.

More from Game Over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul

About this transcript: the episode's spoken words as captioned on YouTube, split into timestamped sections. Reclip.Me locates every person, work and idea in the text, keeps the time it is first named, and quotes the words around it verbatim. Last updated January 24, 2026.