Transcript

What It Takes to Make a Trade

From Game Over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul · Episode page · Watch on YouTube

· 1 h 23 min · 15,406 words · 348 timestamped sections

This is the full, timestamped transcript of "What It Takes to Make a Trade", an episode of Game Over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul published January 7, 2026 (1 h 23 min, about 15,406 words). It mentions 21 people, works and ideas, including Trey Young, Jim Harbaugh, Rich Paul, Austin Reeves, Old Miss.

What is discussed, and when

  1. – 10:00: Jim Harbaugh, Cleveland Browns, FanDuel, Larry Bird
  2. – 20:00: Jim Harbaugh, Trey Young, Andy Reid, Cleveland Browns
  3. – 30:00: Trey Young, Larry Bird, Rich Paul
  4. – 40:00: Trey Young
  5. – 50:00: Austin Reeves, Anthony Davis, CJ McCullum, Cooper Flag
  6. – 1:00:00: DeAndre Aton
  7. – 1:20:00: Old Miss, Trey Young, Austin Reeves, Will and Ariel Durant
  8. – 1:22:56: Max Kellerman, Rich Paul, Old Miss

Notable quotes from "What It Takes to Make a Trade"

  • Max Kellerman, Rich Paul. Game over.
    about Rich Paul · at
  • Reflects a negative reaction to what LeBron said. And if you're if you're LeBron James or Kevin Durant or any number of incredible and great athletes who 99% of what they do is…
    about Will and Ariel Durant · at
  • Larry Bird, who was the reigning MVP, who was winning championships, who's the best player ever.
    about Larry Bird · at
  • Giants are trending in the right direction and they suck the next year again. Now, this is why Harbaugh is so like you want Harbaugh as a coach of the Browns, right? Duh. You're damn right.
    about Jim Harbaugh · at
  • Know Superman's in the division in the conference in the form of Patrick Mahomes and Andy Reid. I'm not saying Harbaugh is the best coach in the NFL, but he's one of the best…
    about Andy Reid · at
  • Well, Trey Young is Yes. Trey Young is what I would call a distressed commodity right now. And the reports are such harsh words.
    about Trey Young · at
  • Rolling as a decision maker. And so impossible. So, so now, and by the way, now if Austin Reeves is healthy, I always think they should move Austin Reeves, but when you put it like that, if Luca and LeBron are in the pick and roll.
    about Austin Reeves · at
  • And Old Miss, the way they played Georgia looked like a team of destiny.
    about Old Miss · at

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

  • Trey Young — Person · 18 mentions · first at
  • Jim Harbaugh — Person · 12 mentions · first at
  • Rich Paul — Person · 4 mentions · first at
  • Austin Reeves — Person · 4 mentions · first at
  • Max Kellerman — Person · 3 mentions · first at
    Max Kellerman, Rich Paul. Game over.
  • Will and Ariel Durant — Person · 2 mentions · first at
  • Larry Bird — Person · 2 mentions · first at
  • Andy Reid — Person · 2 mentions · first at
  • Anthony Davis — Person · 2 mentions · first at
    Anthony Davis when he is on the floor is there has not been any diminishment of his play.
  • DeAndre Aton — Person · 2 mentions · first at
    Pick a pop, pick and roll. Yeah. But remember I said they're going to they're going to have to if DeAndre Aton sets a screen, they're going to blitz Luca and make DeAndre Aton make a decision, right?
  • Jim Haslam — Person · 2 mentions
  • Tam Jackson — Person · 1 mention · first at
    But also there's more and there's more athletes on these plat when I was growing up there was the great Tom Jackson.
  • CJ McCullum — Person · 1 mention · first at
    Who can help you right now in addition to a little draft that you can get you can get CJ McCullum?
  • Luca Donuch — Person · 1 mention · first at
    He not. Again, I like Put it this way. He just got traded for Luca Donuch. If he gets moved again, you are not going to have to give up a Luca Donuch to get him.
  • Cooper Flag — Person · 1 mention · first at
    A championship with Luca. and eight and like the Mavericks if they could just stay healthy like Cooper Flag is already a problem.
  • Frank Isola — Person · 1 mention · first at
    Cooper No, one thing about Cooper, the best I was on the record at Frank Isola's I think SiriusXM show during the draft. The best thing about Cooper is he knows how to play. So in that case is actually you're getting a very.
  • Shawn Payton — Person · 1 mention

Companies & orgs

  • Cleveland Browns — Company · 2 mentions · first at
    But I don't just want John Harbaugh as a coach. He is the perfect fit for my Cleveland Browns. He is the perfect fit next to Andrew Barry and owner Jim Hasslam because that…
  • FanDuel — Company · 1 mention · first at
    Game over is presented by FanDuel.
  • Baltimore Ravens — Company · 1 mention

Places & events

Full transcript with timestamps

Max Kellerman, Rich Paul. Game over. Please subscribe. Please subscribe. Stop begging people to sub. I'm not begging. I'm asking. Subscribe if they like the show.

There's a difference between begging and asking nicely. I probably shouldn't argue with you about how to conduct business actually. But you know what I was thinking?

You know what I was thinking listening to LeBron James last night? Why are we talking about LeBron James? 38.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no. We're not doing this. We're not doing this. We got big news.

Yeah, but yes, but we're in the cold open still, Rich. We haven't even started the show yet. We're going to start with Harball, of course.

Okay. I'm just saying I don't want to. I mean, so he goes So, LeBron drops goes 38 and 8 in a win. He's 41 years old. He comes out after the game, says a thing that's completely reasonable, right? Hey, TBD, I'm 41. We we're going to get into that in the show. But you know what occurred to me?

What? I'm gonna have to bring up something in the show that's not even my opinion, but reflects a negative reaction to what LeBron said. And if you're if you're LeBron James or Kevin Durant or any number of incredible and great athletes who 99% of what they do is positive in their life, in their career, and 1% is like is worthy of real critique. They have to be sitting there going, why does it feel like it's 5050 positive negative coverage of me when it should be 991? Because people have to pay bills.

Bills have to get paid. You mean it's more interesting this way? You know how hard it is for somebody to walk up to you and say, "Max, that is a very nice sweater you have on today."

Well, thank you, Rich. It's nice jacket. Thank you. Yeah. How often do you get that?

I mean, I You mean it's harder for people to show love than it's harder for people to be positive towards anything. That's not what sells. That's not what people even even when you look on if you look at comments on social media

most of them are negative in a lot of ways because that's what fuels those people like you have to you have and it's okay and I think that's right about social media I think in in more traditional media it's a little different I think that we we we tell we explain the world through storytelling and stories have to have characters and like so you know the difference between like uh DC comic books and Marvel comic books like DC is Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, and Marvel's all the interesting comic book characters right?

Well, I would look at it different. I would say DC was more of the foundational comic characters. And then

I once spoke to someone at Marvel about this and they're like DC is your mom, your dad,

and the the identity of the superhero is really who they are. That's really Superman. That's who he is. and he dresses up as Clark Kent. Whereas in Marvel, it's you. So, the real person is Peter Parker. He dresses up as Spider-Man.

But, but you but you also have to look at the landscape today. If you look at today's landscape and you and by the way, you've been in this space how many years?

27 professionally. Okay. And you've seen it grow over time. You've seen it change. You've seen it grow. You've seen it evolve. Today you have more voices than ever before between social media. Everyone has a platform,

but also there's more and there's more athletes on these plat when I was growing up there was the great Tom Jackson.

Right now every now every athlete has but but the point I was making about DC and Marvel is that Marvel was more interesting not only because the kid reading the comic book is identifying with the superhero. That's not something I aspire to be. That's really me.

Okay. But because the because as a kid, as a less mature character, they felt more real because they had flaws. They were more interesting because they had flaws. And and storytelling is not as interesting if the hero is perfect. And the only weakness is this one kryptonite, right? Is the Achilles heel. Much more interesting when they're more when there's humanity is there. There are plenty of weaknesses and flaws, even if they're hidden from people sometimes. And that extends to sports storytelling. It's less interesting if LeBron's always great and da da and more interesting and easier to sell if he has flaws and weaknesses.

Thing there's there's nothing wrong with that. It's nothing no one's perfect. That's just Yeah. Right. It's nothing wrong with criticizing someone when it the action causes for the criticism where I think being in my seat now I'm on the other side for this hour and 10 20 30 however long we go sometimes. um is when you start to cross the line and you see a lot of different agendas and and I know it because I was there. I was actually there when it doesn't feel good to be in a club with your people and everybody hanging and kicking it and you know you're the center of attention and then one guy walks in and everybody in your section wants a picture with that one person

and that's LeBron you're saying. So there's it has been him. It's been it's been, you know, the top top guys. It takes a special kind of person to be okay with that

and to embrace that. And so now when you put a microphone in front of that person,

you're saying the proliferation of athletes with pods adds to the negative voices.

Of course it does because because peers don't normally show their peers. Get this guy out of here. Um, now we need a fly swatter on

we do little I don't care if it's a fly [ __ ] it's it's it's very difficult for your peers to embrace you because

they're competitive. But not only that, but they were but they always were comparing. That's why I always say comparisons are the thief of joy. That's why we see these dumb takes on Jason Tatum. If he comes back to the Celtics, he's going to hurt the team. What?

Not hurt the team, but call me the joy thief cuz I absolutely the the when when you were like, "Don't do that to Tatum and Brown. They're both great." No, that's what's interesting. But who's better? It's a hard question to answer

and it's a little uncomfortable, but that's what makes it fun. But here's the thing. This is the problem we have.

I was there, right? These things matter to people. They haven't corrected these things yet. The peers do not give you very few. It takes a special kind of person to be able to compliment you.

By the way, that's why being in the same space. When MJ came into the league, who was the first guy to be like, "He's the best." You know who it was?

Larry Bird, who was the reigning MVP, who was winning championships, who's the best player ever.

And and and LA, but Larry Bird just looks at this dude because he's secure. Everyone else, Larry Bird knows who he is. He looks at MJ and goes, "That's better than me. What can I tell you? He's better than I am. Because he felt secure enough in himself to see it and recognize

he was a champion. Yeah. Right. He had beat BMJ already, right? All of that. All right. Listen,

I'm just saying it's it's a it's a very hard thing for people. Just a simple thing.

That's a nice sweater, nice jacket. It's hard. There it is. It's hard like the hat, too.

When you add the other elements to it, I'm not surprised by anything that happens today.

You ready to do the show? Let's do it. Game over is presented by FanDuel. FanDuel's got it all. Same game parlays, quick bets for jumping in live and your way so you can build the bet that fits your play. Plus, don't miss out on the NFL playoffs all month long. Download the FanDuel app or head to fanduel.com/gameover to get started. 21 and over and present in select states or 18 and over and present in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem, call 1800gambler or visit rg-help.com. Call 1888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org/hat in Connecticut.

John Harbaugh. Yes. Now, you and I are both fans respectively of enemies. Bad franchises right now. I'm not using the word bad as it pertains to my franchise. The

Browns suck and the Giants suck. We're We're trending in the right direction. I'm positive for 2026. I don't know what you're talking about.

The Browns every year. I think the Giants are trending in the right direction and they suck the next year again. Now, this is why Harbaugh is so like you want Harbaugh as a coach of the Browns, right? Duh. You're

damn right. And I want him as the coach of the Giants. And every single fan of every franchise that needs a coach and some that have a decent coach are going to want John Harbaugh.

But I don't just want John Harbaugh as a coach. He is the perfect fit for my Cleveland Browns. He is the perfect fit next to Andrew Barry and owner Jim Hasslam because that just that they all three of those guys are compatible. It makes perfect sense. This is a big opportunity for us and our our culture moving forward. We have some great pieces. This could be the turnaround moment. And you know what? The Ravens took our team in

99 coach back and they won a Super Bowl. This is an opportunity for us to get the coach that was once there, build a team and go and win a Super Bowl.

I was thinking about your Browns. Let's talk about the Giants here. Here's the thing about

they're not compatible because Stfansky was available. It's like, oh, he's this great offensive coach. The thing about Harbaugh and we'll see what happens with Tomlin is Tomlin literally has never had a losing season as a head coach no matter what the circumstances but Harbaugh even in a down year is competitive all through the season. Harbaugh builds a franchise builds everyone's calling it a program fine that competes all the time where you are never out of any season where you go into every season think thinking you have a fighting chance and that is what a bad franchise needs more than anything else more than well Stfansky has a better offensive mind although Harbaugh's been very adaptable offensively you know I saw I saw a stat on ESPN today it must have been Hembo who did this he always comes up with these Harbaugh the two longest streaks of the highest winning percentage with no Super

Bowl like you won all these regular season games but you didn't win are both by Harbaugh eight I think they're eight years a piece something like that and so like that he has won a Super Bowl he's won a ton of games it's not his fault that a couple of those early Lamar Jackson years he wasn't ready yet he was very young

and it's also not his fault that you know Superman's in the division in in the conference in the form of Patrick Mahomes and Andy Reid. I'm not saying Harbaugh is the best coach in the NFL, but he's one of the best coaches in the NFL. And any team who gets him will get the kind of thing that the Broncos got with Shawn Payeyton. You will within a year or two, you will compete all the time. I want him for the Giants.

Of course you do. But he doesn't fit the Giants. Fits the Giants. This Listen, this is bigger than just coaching. when you're getting hard ball, especially for an organization like the Browns. You mentioned Andy Reid. Remember Andy Reid left Philadelphia and went to Kansas City. This is one of those moments. This is one of those moments for us. And Jim Hasslam is a very smart business guy.

He's looking at this. There's no question about it. We We picked great draft picks last year. We got a pretty solid defense. We have some pretty solid offensive pieces. Harbaugh comes in there, adds to our culture.

If you're a head coach, the number one thing, well, maybe it's not number one, but it's a huge thing is who's the quarterback. Shador Sanders or Jackson Dart? If I'm Harball, I want Jackson Dart. And might wind up being okay. We'll see. Jackson Dart has roof talent. It is not just the quarterback. It is not just the quarterback. And I also think for someone who Dion knows Harbaugh w would be exceptionally great for Shadur and his development. It's just a perfect fit all the way around. And someone who can make if I was listen negotiate the deal with Harbaugh. Let's give them a little small piece of ownership.

I mean, the best argument to go to the Browns is you compete against the team that got rid of you.

No, that's surface level stuff. But but if you're talking about think if you're looking at the teams, the Giants have

excellent talent up front defensively. Their offensive line is completely turned around. They have a franchise left tackle and an otherwise much improved offensive line play. They have a through the roof talented quarterback. They got a running back. They got an elite wide out when he's healthy. They have draft capital. Did you see in 2017 2018 he said he grew up him and his brother fans of the Cleveland Browns. Did you see that?

The Har the Harb in what was that? It just makes sense. It makes sense. He's a Cleveland type of guy. Cuz if that's the case, if you're going to play that game, then Harbaugh then Jerry Jones should call Harbaugh. He should go to Dallas. He should go be the Dallas Cowboys coach.

I mean, well, you know, you heard the report was all all No, no, wait. How many vacancies? There are seven vacancies and he got eight calls. I mean, listen, who knows if that's true? But it sounds credible, doesn't it? If Harball's available.

Yes, but the perfect fit. You think the Eagles might want Harbaugh? You think Eagles fans might want Harbaugh?

I think the perfect fit is the Browns. I'm telling you. Yeah, I'm sure you do. Perfect fit. I'm not even just

I don't even know if the perfect fit is the Giants. I just want them. I'm Yes. I'm not just saying it because I'm a Browns fan. I'm saying it for all things align. The perfect fit is the Browns.

Is he the Now, if you are a team looking for a coach, Tomlin still has a job in Pittsburgh. And by the way, of course, the Ravens should have kept Harball. Of course, the Steelers should keep Tomlin. If they get rolled by the Texans, which could happen. I mean, I think the Steelers are going to be very competitive no matter what. But the Texans defense, you know me about the Texans. I love that defense, especially the front. If they get ruled by the Texans and Tomlin is not the Pittsburgh coach next year,

he'll get calls from an expansion team and I don't even think that's in the works.

If it become if it comes down to Tomlin or Harbaugh, who'd you rather have me for my Browns?

Yeah. First of all, I don't I I think it's harder for Tomlin to go from Pittsburgh to Cleveland than it is from Harbaugh to go from Baltimore to Cleveland.

I think it's a little bit because just because Brown Steelers the rivalry. Yeah,

they they have more years of history and rivalry. Yeah, the Ravens are in the division. The Yeah, but the Ravens aren't that old. The Ravens came in 1999.

But you do have the connection as you point out. Yes, that's what I'm saying. So, there's still a little it's it's almost like

All right, fine. So, if you get Harball, I want Tomlin. Great. But as of right now, the guy who's available is Harbaugh. And the problem with the Giants, honestly, like to be real about it, the problem with the Giants is

Mar has already said he's keeping Joe Shane. So, if you're Harbaugh, you want to come in and play for a a a GM who has a short leash, you would think at this point. and a lot of people have made the point is going to be GMing for his job. You know,

come into Cleveland Harball, have a great dinner with Jim and Andrew, talk it out. Matter, as a matter of fact, invite Miles Garrett. He'll show up. He's a professional, so he'll be early. he won't be late to the dinner and really talk about the Browns, its culture, its history, the opportunity, the the the legacy, what's there. And by the way, call Mayor Bib. He'll show up, too. There's a lot of promising things happening in the city of Cleveland. You can be a part of New York,

redeveloping Cleveland. All these things are there. There's a lot more opportunity there. I mean, look, Mara, John, do me a favor. Can Can I call you John?

I'm just telling you. Just Just give Harbaugh what he wants. Forget about what you said about you. Just give Harbaugh what he wants. Whatever he says, you do that. And

now now you want to beg. Huh? You tell me I'm begging. We'll beg what you need to beg for. You know,

you tell me I'm begging to have subscribers subscribe to our our show. Well, this is more important. It's the Giants.

More important are subscribers. Forget I'm a fan. Gotta be crazy here. I'm a professional, but about the Giants, I'm a fan.

No. You know what a fan is short for, Rich? I don't know if you're aware. Fanatic. Let's move on.

All right, Rich. Um, this kind of worked out well the other day. You had certain things to say about a topic and through the magic of editing, we could just snap our fingers and there it was.

You need my whiteboard again? I think we need the whiteboard. I think we need to brand the segment.

Free game. M I don't like free game. What do you like? I don't like anything free. That that that that that bothers me.

Right. I'm a businessman. Yep. So what is it? I can put you on game. Put you on game.

But but but but yeah, I can always put you on game. I We talked about wardrobe the other day. We talked about

Jordan. You want to call the You want You want to call the segment put you on game? Yeah.

Better than free game. I just don't like the word free. All right. Leader in the clubhouse is put you on game.

Yeah. And and let the let the let the the viewers decide. Okay. You want to clap twice or something? We can start there. Whiteboard. But wait a minute. What is What are we talking about?

Well, Trey Young is Yes. Trey Young is what I would call a distressed commodity right now. And uh the reports are

such harsh words that he will be traded. You wanna you want to do this on Trey Young? I mean we could also do this on LeBron James and his comments last night.

No, we can't. Listen, what do you want to do? Enough with the LeBron stuff. Let's focus on So what do you want to know about Trey? But what do you want to know about Trey? You want about the situation?

The whole situation. Take us behind the curtain. You are privy if not to the details of this particular deal. Although you know you understand how this process works. So people watching and listening right now are all they hear is the reports. Oh Trey Young might get traded. I want you to take us behind the curtain the way you did about Jordan brand and how the branding of sneakers works the different colorways and when you get to the second kind of contract the way you do the same thing behind the scenes Trey Young right now.

Can you do that? I could. Yeah. I had a feeling that you were going to ask me about this.

Yeah. All right. Well, I mean like and I I don't necessarily need to make it specifically. Well, I can make it

Let's make it specific on Trey Young. Okay. All right. You want You want me to snap or you

I got it. Okay, Max. Look at that. The magic of editing. Yes. It's called preparation.

All right. So, I put you on the game a little bit. Take you behind behind the scenes.

So, in this case, we're talking about the player Trey Young. Right. Right. So, as you can see here,

got the point. player, the first thing you want to focus on is the mental state of the player.

Okay? Because as you know, as tough as these guys are, our game is 90% mental. No player Well, that's what toughness is.

I know. But there's also build that comes with physique, but no player likes to hear their name in the public in a negative light.

Right. And for some strange reason, although it's a part of our business, guys get traded. It's just a part of the business. No player also likes to be traded.

I unless not for some strange reason, you would never trade Michael Jordan. You would never trade LeBron James.

You would never trade Kobe Bryant. You would never trade Larry Bird, Magic Johnson. If you're like that, you don't get traded.

But but those are franchise players. Yeah you can't you can't but you never trade Steph Curry and Trey Young was trying to be like Steph Curry and he was

another franchise player but you've been unfair in this situation. The second thing is narrative. Now you have to focus on controlling the narrative right

as a player he would want his representation I imagine to control the narrative. No, it's not that I'm not wanted. There's a mutual agreement that the time is up. I understand that and they understand that and we're agreeing together on that.

Can I stop you and ask you a question here? Sure. This is a kind of a meta question

about So a lot of haters will right now as soon as you say that they'll be like controlling the narrative. See Rich Paul controls the narrative. That's what LeBron likes to do. That's what Rich likes to do. Control the narrative. Are you worried at all when you say that or even as you're trying to control the narrative in a process like this that you get blowback about the fact that you're trying to control it or does that not matter?

But that's part of it. See, people take controlling the narrative as you only wanting good things out there about you. That's not what it is. controlling the narrative or just mana not even control just managing the narrative because if you let it just be one-sided

I see the as an agent you have to tell your side of the story and also you have a client your client is calling you and saying hey man this is not how it's supposed to go this is and so you have to do something about that as the player you also want to do whatever you can to try to maintain your value whatever that could be right because Some some guys get traded with equal value. Some guys get traded with lesser value. Some guys get traded with a little bit more value given the other the team on the other side and what they how they value.

All right. I have another question there. Okay. They may give up more, right? So if you're

got five picks, if you're the agent of a player, if you're Trey Young's agent in this case,

do to maintain the value means whoever you get traded to is more weakened as a franchise if they trade more for you. On the other hand, they don't

even if it's draft picks, you're weakened in the future. The point is the point is don't you want them to trade less for you or is that saying it diminishes your client if they trade less for you?

No. Well, it's two things. In this particular case, there's probably only going to be maybe one or two teams maybe. Right.

So, but but let me get through it. I I'll answer your question. The other thing is the play, right? So, this is tough because you still have to go out and play. Now, we saw the team do well, not so well, then do well again. I think it's unfair to blame one person on that, but optics are optics, right? You have to manage the optics in that case. Now, the GM1 is the GM for his current team. That GM has to do one thing mainly and that's okay. If we are moving this player, I have to do a really good job of managing assets because with his player option and I know the contract very well

in Trey Young's case. Yeah. Yes. Who did that contract? Well, Omar Wilson and myself did the contract when he was once a client, but he has a big number. So that number to go out like you're saying getting to your question. Yes. Normally you would have to deplete the team that you're going to to add.

But because they're adding that number to their payroll, they're giving up less. Well, because they're adding that number to a team that probably isn't trying to win, that team can trade back an expiring contract

that is close to that number, but it will not come without an asset being given up by the team that's sending them out. That's where it gets a little conflicting because yes, the team that's taking you in, they want they'll take you in. We've seen it happen. We've seen Charlotte do it this year. We've seen the Brooklyn Nets do it. You saw Sam Pressie did it several several years, but that's how they were accumulating draft capital.

So, this is my question. Going back to before, is it okay? Like, are you interrupting the flow or can No, go ahead. Cuz I think it's good for people to know.

Yeah. So, this is my question. If if Nicola Joic was traded, he has a huge number. Everyone would not only match if they had to an expiring contract to match the number, they would give up a ton of stuff for him because it's Jokic. So as his agent,

but but that's unfair. You you're confusing the people with that comparison because

you're comparing a franchise player. Yes. But that's what I'm saying. So, as his agent, if you're Trey Young's agent, do you want the franchise who's acquiring him to give up more for him because it suggests your client is on a certain level or do you want them to give up less for him because then he goes into more of a winning situation because they didn't have to give up as much?

Naturally, you want them to give up two both things could be right. Okay. naturally you want them to give up more because that will position you stronger with that team because they gave up a lot to get you so on so forth. But this all that is not in play here because again going to the agent what they probably are trying to figure out or to maintain is one the narrative right you got to manage the narrative but the other thing that's why I have this here you want one team cuz often what you're trying to do in this situation is you're trying to move but you want to extend on the move.

So, what that means is get him to a place to where he can opt into his last year of his contract because I doubt if he opts out unless you have

tear it up because you're going to do a long deal, right? Yeah. But you still wouldn't tear you opt in and then extend probably for lesser money.

So, you only need to find one team in this case because here's the thing. Wait, Rich, they wouldn't tear they wouldn't tear up the deal to do a longer deal because it gives him the extension and factors that in. You know what I You could opt out yes to get a surplus of 50 million.

Right. Right. So now I have 90 million over the next four years. I added a 50 million.

It's just dollars in. You're just adding up the dollars. Yeah. You can do that. Yes. if that's on the table. But you can also do the opp if you go into a a team that's not necessarily in contending form and they can they're not in the apron, they're not in a tax and they can have your salary on the books for this year and then extend you for a lesser number going out for maybe two more years, I imagine, then yes, you can do that. But in this case, it's not like there's teams clamoring, right?

He's a distressed asset. Yeah, I would never use that word for a player, but I'm just I'm just being honest. It's not like his team's clamoring, but it don't matter if his team's clamoring. In our profession, it don't matter. Most players aren't going to get five, six, seven teams. Most players don't have the entire market. There's some guys who make the market, and there's some guys who have to fit within the market. Sure. In this case,

you got to identify a market. You really probably have to build a market for that and you use your relationships. Trey Young has value. Trey Young is a really good basketball player. Just know

this gives you an advantage over a lot of agents, I imagine, because you do know what you're looking at in with basketball. So you are able to construct an argument to a team that may not be on the first thing on their mind as Trey Young, but if you represent Trey Young, you may be able to construct a a persuasive argument for to a team why he would be good for them. And you might be able to construct that argument better than another agent because you know the basketball better.

Well, listen, there's there's I'm not the type of person that will say, "Oh, I'm the best and everybody else suck." I don't do that and I don't do that in meetings. I don't I don't negative recruit. I I I I would never do

my observation what they do to me. But what I will say is what they do to you. Yeah. But what I will say is this

again in this situation that's why I have GM number two. Okay. So if this is the team that you're trying to place them with,

what they're going to focus on more than anything, sure, we'll take the contract, but what's coming with it? What's our asset gain? Is it a first round pick? Is it two first, which probably won't happen, but we have to have some type of asset game. It could be two seconds depending on what they need, right? I'm just giving you

the team to whom he is getting traded to not just doesn't just want Trey Young. He wants some kind of asset back. Yes, he's because where where he's at now.

You have to incentivize. It's not like the phone is ringing the other way and saying we want him. It's a different dynamic. That's why the narrative has to be balanced out a little bit because you have to create some type of market. Then they're going to focus on the production which we know Trey Young every night most nights he's going to be 25 and 10. That you don't have to worry about.

It'll be exciting. That you don't have to worry about. The third thing is does he fit our culture, right? because you have a guy who was once the top player on his team coming into a culture. We didn't draft him. Now, the good thing is the teams that's out there that they're talking about, normally when those teams are out there, someone somewhere once had some type of relationship with the player and they have some familiarity and they're able to talk to their ownership group, talk to the head coach, talk to the GM, and smooth it out if it's but this GM, he didn't draft the player, so it's not his responsibility.

So at that point when the GM doesn't draft you, everything has to be here in order because he's not going to jeopardize his job for someone he didn't draft, right? So he has no ownership there.

But it's and in this case, it's the opposite way. And then the fourth thing is timeline. When I mean timeline is are we trending in a direction where if we plug this person, it fits our timeline in terms of play, also age in the locker room. We got to look at some of our other players and what their age is and figure out if this makes sense. You know, from a leadership perspective, all these different things. when you're bringing somebody else into the locker room of a team that is probably a little on the young side and and and not really has really evolved or matured yet in terms of what their roster looks like.

And so you have to consider all these things. But I say all that to say, I see a lot of takes on shows today and I see a lot of crazy takes like trade Reed Shepard and Jabari Smith for like th those things are really fantasy basketball and it's it don't it doesn't work like that. But I I'm not going to get up here and act as if Trey Young does not have value. I think that's I think that's a little misleading.

Here's the issue for me with Trey Young. Let me give you two sides of it from a fans point of view. Thinking like if I was the GM, if I was GM too, what I'd be thinking. Okay.

On the one hand, I have now seen him. Well, first of all, let me ask your basketball opinion. Is Trey Young as good as he ever was?

Is Trey Young as good as he physically? Is he still in his prime? Yeah, I think so.

Okay. So, as a GM, Mhm. if that's what my people are telling me, right, that the scouts and everything like, "No, he's physically we watching him closely. He's what he ever was." On the one hand, I'm thinking he has now been through stretches, two stretches of injury with this crew in Atlanta where they clearly functioned better without him. And that is very damning. So, I'm not trying to give up real assets to get him. On the other hand, you know a good player and a bad player. He's a good player.

Yeah. And he you can get him for pennies on the dollar. Him and John Mar. It's not really pennies on a dollar

compared to what it would have been three years ago. I'm not sure what it would have been three years ago. Not not not

higher than it is now, my man. Actually, I am sure what it would have been three years ago.

Higher than today. Right. Yeah. Yes. Well, what what's higher is not so much as the assets coming back if there was any. It's the perception is higher

and therefore there are because the perception was higher then there would have been more buyers and if there are more buyers there's more demand the price goes. I always see I always thought what was a good landing spot for him two and a half years ago cuz sometimes you have to get ahead of these things, right? Like

like in a situation with De'Aran, right? I love the fact that you bring up De'Aran Fox. I'm watching him last night and I texted you.

I'm like, he's kind of the secret weapon on the Spurs. They were talking about how clutch he is and as I'm texting you this, he gets his shot blocked. It would have been the game winner, but okay, whatever. You're not going to win them all. But like Dearron Fox is in such a good situation now.

Yes. And he went from starring on a bad franchise and a bad team to playing a complimentary role on a team that has a chance to eventually win a championship.

But let me tell you, by the way, that could happen. I don't think it'll happen this year, but it's like not out of the question.

Here's the thing. He never wanted to leave that team. Never wanted to leave Sacramento.

He did not. No. And when I first signed him, one of the biggest things was because, you know, I get the reputation that, oh, if you sign, then he's gonna try to move you to a better market or bigger team, whatever the case may be. That was one of the things he's like, Rich, you know, I really want to see this thing through here in Sacramento because they drafted me and he like the ownership group, etc. And even the front office,

forget about seeing it through it. I could see through it. No, but that but that wasn't the case. But but it it took some time. But with that being said, he trusted me to be able to present to him places that I thought made a lot of sense for him going forward in the future.

So at a certain point in Sacramento, you're like, "Look, this did he come to you or did you go to him and like, look, this ain't working?"

No. I mean, the writing was on the wall. There's no future in it. And it's but we handled it very professionally as as professionally as you can and you see the disgrunt and things like that but but you still have to go out and play and and and every situation is different. Um but in this case then now you have to have foresight. So my the foresight was let's look at these teams Orlando, San Antonio, teams that really needed a point guard but also had some other key pieces and that he would fit right into and and and be able to catapult. So ultimately we landed on San Antonio and San Antonio saw it as well.

But again when you talk about they still looking at culture timeline. Hey you coming in here next to Wimby. Wim is going to be our franchise guy.

But not only that, like he Fox gets kind of like the in terms of the press that they get or in the imagination of the fans when people talk about the Spurs WBY and then after Webby it's kind of like Harper and Castle

and that's okay and and he becomes No, I'm saying it's really good placement by you and him because he becomes the veteran leader who can take over in crunch time and that's why I say in a weird way he's kind of their secret weapon. But but again, what you're saying goes into why they acquire him because I'm not worried about that. I can have nine points like last night, right? I can have 30 points. At the end of the day, I'm coming in here because I want to win. I want to, you know, I want to play every row. And also, I know my place.

Hard to explain to a guy. I imagine I imagine I don't know Trey Young but like you know I've interviewed him but hard to to imagine talking to a guy like Trey Young and explaining three years ago yes the perception of you as a guy who who got traded know you may not have the exact same role somewhere else but in the long run if you do this it's going to be better for you.

So okay so that is the hardest thing for any player. I'm not going to pick on Trey Young. I'm going to say any player, especially when you're drafted high in the draft, right? But one thing about being a lottery pick or a high draft pick, it doesn't entitle you to be in that one place forever,

right? You have to mainstay that. So, in this case, you know, what I foresaw back then was Toronto.

And the reason why I foresaw Toronto is because I'm looking at it holistically, right? Basketball-wise, I thought about ice tray. It's [ __ ] ice cold up there, the kids, the style of play. I thought

you always beat me in the head with Toronto as a market for these guys. You have a whole country behind you.

All of that. But but no, but seriously be because Mighty Mouse 2.0. Yeah. between you know I I think about things that when you go into the organization and you having these conversations with them because what people don't understand is there's a basketball side of an organization but there's also a business side of organization and if you can give that insight and it's a holistic approach then it makes sense because

no Toronto's a great call from both they've won a championship and you and you do have a whole market but this was before the RJ and Quickley

um um trade now that that obviously it it changes things. So, but again, I think that it's the toughest part and it and and the toughest part about our league is everything is public. These guys salaries is public. How somebody feel about you is public. How you feel about them can be public. And so the in this position, so we can move on, the mental piece for the player matters more than anything because no because you still got to go in that locker room. You still have to go to practice and you still have to be able to maintain um a a sense of professionalism, a smile, um be be cordial or with with your teammates and things like that. It's not an easy thing.

Even harder in this case, I think, and let's be specific about Trey Young, because if you're the Hawks, you look at what you have and you go, we're actually really good and we're better without him.

Well, the Hawks the Hawks being led by Jaylen Johnson now, right? They're they're

However, maybe you want a guy in the back court in the playoffs who's really a point guard. I mean, you could, but my point is about the Hawks in this case, the asset that you get back, if I'm the Hawks, I don't want it just to be an expiring contract.

No, you're not. I want I need I need someone to add to the team a little bit right now because they could go on a little run right now.

But this is where media and expertise differentiate. You're media. Sure. I'm expertise. That's not happening. You're not going to get anything. You can't You can't add even if it's a role player, something that makes you improves your team.

Yeah. You can get an expiring contract back that may be a older guy. That's what I'm saying. Yeah.

Who can help you right now in addition to a little draft that you can get you can get CJ McCullum?

Yes. That's what I mean. Yes. Yeah. But you were saying in a different way. No, no, no. What I'm saying is it's already addition by subtraction. If I'm if I'm in the Hawks front office, I'm thinking we're going to get rid of him and we're going to be better as a result, but can we also get a little better than that by who we acquire?

You can do that. Yeah. In other words, not just in the future with draft capital.

In a sense, you hope you're able to get an expiring contract and someone who's coming to your locker room that can still play a little bit and that you may can keep around. in that case too if you if you

and you might want stuff that you can reflip into another deal to bring someone else in.

You could do that too. Yes. All those three things. Yes. But you got two teams that's in different different positions.

I want to talk about I I didn't even realize I was going to do this. I want to talk about another one of your clients, not just LeBron. Anthony Davis when he is on the floor is there has not been any diminishment of his play.

No. Um since any part of his career when he's on the floor, he is an elite player when he's on the floor. But given his age, his contract, and his and his injury history, he's also going to be seen as a distressed asset.

No, no, he not. Again, I like Put it this way. He just got traded for Luca Donuch. If he gets moved again, you are not going to have to give up a Luca Donuch to get him.

No. Well, they didn't Well, I'm not I'm not getting into that. Here's what I'll say. I don't like to use the word distress for no player, whether I represent them or not. So, I I won't be I

You don't have to. It's useful for me. I'll be respectful to the player in that in that regard. What I will say is if you're looking to trade for a player of the magnitude of Anthony Davis, again going back to timeline, what you're saying is this player gives us a shot to either get to or get over.

Oh my god. If you if a team that is poised already adds Anthony freaking Davis right now, especially if that fills a need.

But even some there are even some teams that kind of have someone in that role doing okay. But if you turn that person into AD and AD stays healthy, that's always the caveat with him because he's going to miss 20 to 25 games a year

or or or 20 games a year, something like that. If he could be healthy in the playoffs, you could make a run this year like But you could win the whole thing. He was outstanding last night. He changed everything for that team.

Well, that's the that's the And you say he was outstanding last night. I was at the game last night. I guarantee you if you ask him was he outstanding last night, he'll say, "Man, I missed so many shots."

Yeah. But defensively, he changed everything. Of course. But I could sit there and say he probably

if I asked him, which he would probably say, "What do you have 19 and 15?" Or I don't remember this. I don't remember the stat whatever it was, but he probably could have had or should have had

not to make every shot, but maybe 28 and see if I'm the Mavs and I think Kyrie's ever going to get healthy.

I'm just saying like I know the Luca AD trade was the worst trade ever. Blah blah blah. Luca could be a dead-end player if he if he refuses to ever move his feet on defense. You will never win a championship with Luca. and eight and like the Mavericks if they could just stay healthy like Cooper Flag is already a problem. Yeah, but given Cooper Flag's timeline, it's his he has a steep learning curve. Like I know that has a veteran team but a young guy.

Cooper No, one thing about Cooper, the best I was on the record at Frank Isola's I think SiriusXM show during the draft. The best thing about Cooper is he knows how to play. So in that case is actually you're getting a very young player that can produce and knows how to play. Obviously going to hit his he going to hit his

but the point is as a rookie you would think maybe he's a number three. He is not a number three option. As a rookie he could be your one or two option.

But that's not the point I'm making. The point I'm making is his salary compared to his production.

Yeah. is ridiculous. It's different. It is actually an asset. It's a plus in that in that regard. Normally that player

his salary where he is today that that his production would probably be a 30 to $35 million player on your books.

Absolutely. So that's a luxury. But with that being said, there's some other things that you know all teams have to look at. And this look again

I know like I when you start talking like that I know there are things you can't talk about because you are because you have clients and this involves some of them

but it's not even about the clients. There's things that I mean the math masks look pretty good when they're healthy.

There's things that you want to be respectful to and I will but there's also things I mean I would answer any question that you want me to act that you want to ask

but I'm not gonna I wouldn't put you in that situation. But but again you know AD makes any team bad. I said that last on the last show. He makes any

You are not lying. All right, let's uh let's move on cuz we we should pay some bills

and move the whiteboard. Well, yeah. Well, the magic, you know, like you want to clap again?

Wait. 38 and 8 at the age of 41. It's unbelievable. No wonder he's the second greatest player who

I'm kind of jaded to be honest with you. I'm a little jaded. You're jaded. Why? Yeah, because I

windmill dunks and stuff. I made a comment before I said that obviously the ceiling is who he is or who he who he has been for his career,

but the floor was Carl Malone. Like if LeBron just if LeBron just decided to set screens, pop set if if you if you said like last night, right?

Pick a pop, pick and roll. Yeah. But remember I said they're going to they're going to have to if DeAndre Aton sets a screen, they're going to blitz Luca and make DeAndre Aton make a decision,

right? If LeBron sets the screen, you pretty much have to switch it. You're on the one of the greatest decision makers who ever lived

because if you blitz him now, he's short rolling as a decision maker. And so impossible. So, so now,

and by the way, now if Austin Reeves is healthy, you know, I always think they should move Austin Reeves, but when you put it like that, if Luca and LeBron are are are in the pick and roll

Yes. and Austin Reeves is on the floor, it you you're going to score. But here's the thing.

People say they should move Austin Reeves. And again, I want to make sure people understand

most people say they should move Austin Reeds because they think that it's um a little crowded, right?

Yeah. Then there's another case of well contract you're going to have to pay him,

right? And so and the defense given how LeBron at his age and Luca don't play defense. Austin Reeves is a willing defender but not a talented defender. And so now your three best players, you need a lot of defense.

So there's that with the money. There's no doubt Austin Reeves has to be paid, right?

I don't know how much. A lot. You're going to be paid a lot. A lot. Right. So if you are if you can maintain that while still being able to build is one thing. If you get hamstrung by it and that's your money is tied up in those two guys, it's another thing. Um but yeah, to your point in terms of just from a basketball premise perspective, yes, if you now have Ruie or Austin and LeBron Spray and whomever it is in in in the in the dunker spot. That's more of a from a lob perspective, you're actually pretty good if those guys can if those guys. I wouldn't I mean I totally agree if LeBron is Carl Malone he can play several more years. Why not?

Well listen I listen I know there's less for him to do and so because of that he can also play a little more defense.

Everyone's like you know do the farewell and his last year this and that. Like I don't know what it is but I'm I hope it's not his last year.

The fact that you're talking about this on game over now. I hope it's not his last year. I'm going to talk to him about it. You have not discussed this with LeBron. You never went to LeBron and said, "Why don't you beat Carl Malone?"

Oh, yes. No, no, no. Not beat Carl Malone. No. What you mean? We talked I just told you that the other night. That's what we were talking about. I liked him.

No, but but that's that's that's for this game. And then he made for the Memphis game,

by the way. Okay. All right. All right. This opens up a whole can of worms. People are focusing on him saying, "I can't. I'm TBD. I'm back to backs. I'm 41. And I played the most minutes in NBA history.

That's a given. Obviously, like obvious smart. It would be stupid for him not to be that, right?

I want to focus on something else. Actually, his comment about bending to Luca. He says everyone's got to bend to Luca. Is that starting to hint at what you're talking about him as Carl Malone to Luca's John Stockton? Right. Is he is he talking about although Luca would do more of the scoring, but is he talking about or hinting at doing the thing that you're talking about? You know what? That's actually a very astute, self-aware admirable comment to make because

it is excellent. It is it is totally different from what the narrative was when the trade happened all through the summer,

right? What was being exuded? And that's one of those things where it's like, you know, when someone does something to two wrongs don't make a right. That's one of those two wrongs don't make a right comment.

Okay. Why? Because I think two things could be true. I think that when you have someone that's been around the game at the level that he's been around it and with the production that he has, right, the the the resume that he has and the experience that he has, you appreciate that and you you you try to exude or distract as much as that possible and bottle it for your for your organization.

Okay. So to show that appreciation and then be extremely excited for the new right in terms of like he said a 26 year old player coming in and I think that in in in in LeBron's case however many more years he has to play and we we have had this conversation I think is always important for when the game has given you so much I think is so important for you to spend these years creating moments and memories for young players in your locker room sharing that locker room with you. Give them everything. Give them everything you have because you don't know how much longer you're going to be in those locker rooms. You're not going to get that back. Which is why I felt like when I went to the Spurs facility and their legacy players had lockers,

right, that means a lot. That is a culture thing. That's a building block type of thing, foundational thing. And so in this case, Le what LeBron did last night, it's not so much as what he said. You know, we got the Ben. I think the word Ben could be taken out of context.

No, I think it was good. I think people take that the right way. Hey, we whoever we need to fit in. He's the son and we need to orbit him.

Yes. But but but when when the takes was oh when he comes back he has to fit in. That's what I mean by that.

It's not so much as fit in because again you talking about a guy who arguably was the smartest player to ever play the game in terms of I I mean this is not me saying it.

Well, he's he's right there with magic or anyone. You got this on tape. You got coaches saying it. You got GM saying it. You got teammates saying it. You got opposing players saying it. You watch Jeff Teague. You watch Demar De Roza. Guys who's played against him in the playoffs for several years.

That is all nourishment. Mhm. That is I'm not in a rush for that to go anywhere. Right. And so to me, I think that what he did last night was exactly what I said. And what you're starting to see between he and Luca and also when AR get back is contradiction from what the the the the media spins and and and the the the water cooler conversations were and that's what it's supposed to be. The players leading by example.

Yeah. LeBron's a championship player and he said the right thing last night. That to me that's the news. is not the second of back to backs, but we need to bend around Luca because if the the gravitational force on offense on the team is Luca, he's the sun. He's going to be the guy and the planets that he's the number one option.

And by the way, why is that a bad thing for the bad if when David Robinson did that for Tim Duncan, he got praised. Now, the reason he got praised, of course, is cuz they won a championship together. And here is where I get on Luca. If you are the son, son, you got to play some defense. Like you got to move your feet. You can't be the the is it creates a structural problem.

I'm so bad. That's what happens. That's what happens when you keep going back to the same thing, Max. We get it. We understand. But

but the structural problem is LeBron being 41 is can has to be very selective about defense. AR is not a defender. He's a willing defender, but he's not a great one. Three guys.

Max. But Max, Max, you're putting all the eggs in the basket of Luca playing defense. I wouldn't give a damn if Luca turned into Tony Allen. If Luca can turn into Tony Allen right now,

Luca turned into Tony Allen, they have a chance to win a championship. No, that's not true. If LeBron is doing what you're hold is doing what you're saying, if he plays Carl Malone, Luca's playing defense like he can't, but if he was defensively Tony Allen AR gets healthy, you you still have DeAndre Aton, you have some guys who can compete for a championship. You might win one.

Listen, you have a puncher chance with the talent. Period. When you have that level of talent,

but when you you keep focusing on But they don't have a puncher chance now is my point. Not with not with Luca playing like you. always have a puncher's chance. When you A a puncher's chance is exactly what it is is a puncher's chance.

They got no chance. I'm saying they got no chance. Okay, fair. But I would say you have a puncher's chance. You've seen guys get injured. You see stuff happen. Whatever. You have a puncher chance.

Everyone gets hurt. But that's what a puncher's chance. Everyone's got to get everyone on every other team's got to get punched and knocked out.

Whatever you want, that's what a puncher's chance is. Whatever you want to call it. What I'm The point I'm making is if you This is the point I made the other day. if you can do some surface level things. I'm not saying I'm not saying go out here and um you know pigeon hole your future, right? I'm not saying that. But I'm also not saying, you know, play this game of wait on the biggest name because that to me, and this is me speaking as media, not an agent. This is me speaking as media. That to me is fantasy basketball because the reality of it is every year is different.

Mhm. Every year is different. So you can't just throw a year away. Now I'm not saying

No, but you can look for if you have Luca, he's 26. You don't think you're going to win the title this year. You have AR who's going to you're going to lose for nothing if you don't move him

or resign him and or resign him, right? LeBron is in the last year. Who knows if he's back next year. What if a team like the Knicks wants to say, "Hey, can we fit you in over here?" And you know, who knows, right? Or Cleveland or whoever um on a vet minimum just to try to win a tie. Who knows, right? In so if there is another foundational piece that is in the same peer group as Luca in terms of his age, you might want to pull the trigger now while you have an asset like AR's question. But not even Okay.

Yes. And not lose him for nothing. There could be an opportunity to do that, but you h but that has to come from strictly basketball decision making right there.

But what I'm saying to you is if you're looking at what you have and you're looking at the landscape of the of the league, it used to be that a championship team had at least two or more players that was head and shoulders above the opponents. Things are changing to Right. Yeah. Things are changing. So now doubt about it.

So now this is more of a a a no pun on the Warriors, but this is a more of a strength and numbers era.

Yeah. Because the because the role player, the 3 and D guy, who's now a 3 and D plus guy because he can make decisions, he can put the ball on the floor a little bit, his level is closer to allstar than it used to be.

Yes. So really a lot of that is opportunity. Does he get to star in that role or not? and and a perfect example, male Bridges. It turns out, no, he's not actually the star in that role, but he can do it for a little while. Three and D plus guys are closer to all stars than they used to be. And as a result, you don't need two super duper max players or three max contracts. You need one superstar and like other guys who who can really play. Because here's the thing. When you when you have these super duper max players, right, you have to manage a lot. You're sitting here talking to me about Tatum and Brown and how, you know, this shouldn't work and who's better. This

Phoenix Suns don't have that problem right now. Why do you want to I don't think the Boston Celtics have that problem. I think the people outside of the Boston Celtics try to put that problem on there.

I'm not trying to put a problem. I'm asking a question to fans. Just as a fan, I understand that

when Brown gets back, who's better? Not saying that one has to go, one has. I'm just saying who's back.

When you're inside the culture, you don't want to hear that. But what I'm saying to you is in this case, I'm not even making this about LeBron. This is LeBron.

You're saying inside the sports culture itself. No, I'm talking about inside the culture of an organization.

Yeah. But I'm just saying, by the way, inside the culture of organization, agents, ancillary people, GMs, players, everything is several thousand people. Fans who want to do what I said or millions of people.

The fans is what makes our game. I get it. No question about it. But what I'm saying to you is I'm not even making this about LeBron.

Yeah. Put LeBron off to the side. You know why? LeBron has his championships. He has his accolades. He's a first ballot hall of famer. He has all these things.

Luca doesn't. No, he does not. He has the talent, but he hasn't won a championship yet,

right? And if this continues, he never will. This has to change. But there also hasn't been talk of let's help you understand what is like or how to win a championship.

Oh, you mean the influence that LeBron can have on Luca? Of course. That is the money.

Now you're talking. That is the money. That is that is what everything should be about. How are we putting people around this young man in the locker room? attitudes, work ethics, professionalism, play, IQ, all these things. Because I can tell you something, when LeBron was 26 years old, there was no LeBron next to him in a locker room,

right? That's why he went to Miami. The comments that he made yesterday, when he came to Cleveland, there's tape

of players saying, "Oh, he's going to have to just ride our bandwagon and he's you see the difference? What are you talking about? ride your bandwagon. Now, again, I know it could probably be taken out of context, but I'm just saying, don't take no years for granted. Don't pigeon hole the future, but if we're talking about a strength and numbers type of thing, and we're talking about strictly to focus on Luca, not nobody else.

So, to understand what you're saying, let me make sure I understand this. You don't throw a year away. Even if you think that you're not going to win a championship with this crew, even if AR is there or if he's not there, whatever, the value at this moment is that LeBron can impart to Luca the part of the journey that he has been on that Luca has not been on. And that has real value, not only in terms of the kind of run you could make this year, whatever that may be, but going forward for the franchise. It's a great point. Let me ask you a question. And I I I hesitate to ask because I mean part of the intrigue of doing this show with you for me is that we have uh the kind of person who the public normally doesn't have access to to peak behind the curtain.

But on the other hand, I want to be a little sensitive to your actual business. So I'm going to ask you the question, but you obviously don't have to answer it. Um, I'll decide depend.

In your experience, has one, LeBron James approached Luca with that attitude behind the scenes like, "Hey, let me give you this." And two, and this might even be more important, has Luca been receptive to it if LeBron has? I don't know the answer to that per se because honestly, I have not. I've been I have not been in the weeds. I so I don't know the answer to that per se. What I will say is from my experience when you have a guy that's the ultimate professional in terms of habits, discipline, promptness, preparation, all those things. It's one thing to say something. It's another thing to lead by example. Right. And Luca has always said the one player that he admired and and LeBron

was him. So LeBron's trying to give him the it doesn't the what was it? Habits, discipline promptness

and uh what was the other one? Preparation. He's trying to get Let me give you the

But what I'm saying is it's not so much as you know, everyone has pride, right? And we also live in a world where I did it myself. No one does anything by themselves, right? No one has a but you just said it. This is your guy. You were the most precocious player to come around since LeBron. You were the best 21-year-old since LeBron. The best 22y old. Or so it seemed.

You keep dropping the papers, man. This is the only one I need. Let's throw the papers away. But here's what I'm saying.

Well, we have a lot of time. Here's what I'm saying. for a guy with the the the the eyes in the back of their head, see everything vision on the court, you don't have to. You you you see everything, right? And we're seeing a jail. We're seeing a But what I'm saying is when you're talking about building blocks, there's building blocks to get you to where to the promised land. Even if someone is no longer there, the experience that you have during that time carries throughout for the younger person. That's why when you go to granny's house, right? And when you spend at your grandmother's house, there's no getting up at 12:00, 1:00, 2:00. No, you're not doing any of that.

You're getting up at a decent hour. You have to do whatever the chores, whatever. It's it's a it's a very, you know, disciplinary type of thing. As you grow older, some of those things that was instilled in you that you huffed and puffed and blew the house down about that you didn't want to do, when you get your own place, you find yourself doing what? Those exact things.

Habits you're talking about? Yeah. When you have resources in the soil of your organization present right there, you don't extract those things or you don't, you know, put um something over them so it don't shine as much or they're not visible. You actually water that and see it. You try to get as much as that around this young man as you possibly can. I got something to say about Luca.

If I know he's not the athlete LeBron is, very few people have been, but he's achieved kind of on the surface similar offensive results at similar ages to LeBron. Um, LeBron went to Miami and learned what it took to win championships. And primarily, he became an all-time great defender with under Spolstra and Pat Riley. He became an all I forgot if it was 2012 or 2013.

Won defensive player of the year. Yes. He he reminded me I've said this before of Dennis Rodman almost not quite as intense but like he could guard every position. He was everywhere all at once. He was and and to me that's LeBron's actual prime that year where he was both sides of the floor best player in the world.

Well, he's had like four primes but that's okay. Yeah. But no, I think that was that was the LeBron that I would be.

But defense is effort and energy. Okay. Look, I'm not asking Luca to be the best defensive player in the world. He shouldn't be the worst. Luca right now is arguably the worst defensive player in the world. Can't happen. It's never going to happen. I don't care what like he's going to have to do more than this. You're going to have to show a willingness and effort.

But here's what I'm saying. You don't have to dwell on that. We hear you. We I think we do.

We hear you loud and clear on that part. All I'm saying is I'll tell you no wait I'll tell you why we do because it's when you say it's effort it's not just the the kind of specific point of playing defense to win and d it's that what it reflects because we've seen this with James Harden and by the time he started putting effort into defense it was already too late actually yes but we've seen a guy dribble the ball to death do all these incredible things score take his team on some runs but never get to the finals never win a championship and this is James Harden 2.0. It's the same thing.

But everyone keeps saying that. Everyone keeps saying that. But I was I mean I I said all this about Harden at the time and and then then that came to pass. That's a shame. You don't want that for the player. You want the player to shine.

So let me ask you this question. If you're saying this is James Harden 2.0. Yeah.

You know what I would do? I would go back and I would look at how a team was constructed around James Harden and I would look at my current team. I can almost guarantee you there was no LeBron James on that team with with James Hart because if it was he would have three rings.

Yeah, could be. I can guarantee you that. That's number one. Number two, well, if he had LeBron in his prime, they'd win every year. Well, number two, I don't know if there was a player as good as Austin Reeves has become also with James Harden.

CP3. Okay. Yeah. CP was Yeah. Great. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So, you So, you two

I'm saying he had plenty of he had plenty of bites at the apple. He was on plenty of good teams.

You have two of the three. He had a live threat in Clinton Capella. He had a good team, man.

He had he had he had Trevor at that time was still was still strong. Yeah. But then Pat

Bev he had a lot. And by the way, he went far. And if not for the worst shooting performance ever, not just by him, by the whole team, they get to a final win. The only thing he The only thing he didn't have was a bonafide franchise guy that was on an equal playing field as he was, right? But he probably had once he left the Thunder. You saying he had a better You said he had a better just as good cast.

It was a But he also but he also ran up against But when you're that dude, they run up against you. Not vice versa.

You know, you could everyone can cry. Well, oh, this one would have won a championship if not for Jordan. Yeah. You know who doesn't have to say that? Jordan, cuz he's that dude.

So, if if James Harden doesn't like that, then they would have won championship.

Yeah, but he ws against some dudes, too. And And here's another thing I'll tell you.

Not really. Here's another. What? Who you mean? Not really. Bird. MJ. As soon as he had one other

and Isaiah Thomas, as soon as MJ had a single other Allstar, he smoked the league. Every time he smoked the league. There was no there no one in his way. He smoked 1989.

He had no Allar. Oh. Oh. When they played the Pistons. Yeah. Pippen had a migraine game seven. He was pre-prime. He was on the way up. He made an All-Star team, but pre- prime he had a migraine. Scored two points. In other words, Pippen wasn't an all-star in game seven. So, they lost to the backtoback champs. So, what you're saying

and otherwise smoked the league and not we we spent too much time on Michael Jordan. I don't want to make this about Michael Jordan, but you're But being named a Allstar and having allstar play is two different things.

Yes. Okay. So, you can't say that people don't have allstar play just because they wasn't named the All-Star.

Yeah. But he didn't have allar looking at MJ might not be a named Allstar this year. Whoopdedoo.

But but but but just for the record, MJ had no one. You would look and say, "Oh, that's an allar."

No, I'm not. We're all star. I don't want to do any more MJ. Harden did. And the reason he didn't win championships is because of what we're seeing in Luca. The offensive style of play does not get everyone involved, but you can live with it because he's an offensive juggernaut. But when you combine that with no effort on defense, and by the way, I got to say this. Harden put more effort on defense than than Luca does more effort. We have to move on because that's just an unfair take.

What? That's just an unfair take. What's unfair? You just said he it was so unfair. I don't even remember what you said. Yeah. Let's just move on.

Miami Old Miss. You asked me to pick tomorrow night. Who you got? Well, I want in this case, I mean, they beat my Buckeyes. I got to roll with Miami.

You know what's crazy about this game for me? Uh, Bill Simmons was talking about he had a really interesting take on Tommy Hearns, the fighter, all-time great fighter who lost to in his two biggest fights, Sugar Ray Leonard and Marvin Haggler. Um, but two of the greatest fights literally of all time and and then he drew with Leonard in a rematch. He should have won it, but he got a draw. Um, he said to Simmons said Tommy Hearns is the other guy in the movie. He's like the best other guy in the movie of all time. And and to me what that means is the other guy the story is only as interesting as the characters are interesting and the hero who in this case let's say is Sugar Ray Leonard is more interesting when the obstacle in front of him is bigger so the other guy has to be like impossible right what's LeBron James's greatest story 2016 because the other guy was the biggest juggernaut ever the 73 win Warriors so

when the hero overcomes that oh my god what a story. And that's why that's what made Tommy Hearns like the greatest other guy ever because oh my god, how do you beat that guy?

Miami and Miss is not like the hero versus the other guy. It's like two other guys.

No, two heroes. They're both the team of destiny. Miami look, the way they played Ohio State looked like a team of destiny to me.

I agree with that. And and Old Miss, the way they played Georgia looked like a team of destiny. Well, the thing that impresses me most about Old Miss is

they're not letting the distraction of losing their head coach be an excuse, right?

They're stepping up, no doubt. And they're playing even better. So, I think they're they're they're using that as fuel. One thing I wanted to make when we were talking about

the Trey Young piece, also something I left out. Also, you got to keep in mind small guards today. We're we're at this space where, you know, you have to be really, and Kevin Durant said this this summer, but it's always been true. There's never been a time really that you ever won with the smallest player being your best player outside of

Steph. Well, that just happened. But also Steph, I'll put it another way. But before that, it was Isaiah Thomas.

Well, you can and he's on a planet of his own as a You could argue Jerry West back in the day, considering where Wilt was in his career and all that, but

What do you mean? How tall is Jerry West? But I'm saying his the best player. Oh. Oh. He's not the smallest, but he's the smallest among the stars.

I'm talking about No, I'm talking about height. Okay. The smallest, right? Jaylen Brunson should not be your best player if you want to win a championship.

It's very different. I would put it a different way. I would say there's a cut off of around 63 at which point if your best player is not at least 63 you could have a problem if you're

the only guy who ever did it you're isa the only one and he did it twice but what I'm saying even if you are 6'2ish then there's a lot you have to be special and and and when I say special is special in a lot different ways. Special in getting guys involved, special in in timely shots, you know, because those guys are going to get put in every ball screen today. Today, those guys are going to get put in every ball screen. So, you know, that's coming, which is fine. And no one's saying that you have to be able to just be a lock down defender at that size. But what we're asking you to do is you got to fight through screens. You just got to make you're not stopping nobody in the NBA anyway.

But you just got to make it stop. Especially if you get the gather step, two more steps, jump back, a hop, a jump.

The other thing is normally you go from getting very few guys get rookie deal max max, right? Getting two, three, four max deals. That is a very very very tough thing to do. But what I will say is when you're landing when you're coming from a max and you still have production value, you land at 3540.

Yeah. Good neighborhood. Unbelievable neighborhood. So if we can if we can help and this and this matters because our industry the the the the the environment around these players. We have to help them help themselves because entitlement and ego sometimes stunts your growth and a lot of times it starts to stunt your um ability to you know to your earning potential

like you you're speaking of Trey Young now. Well, I'm Yeah, I'm speaking of Trey on the Trey Young

using him as an example of this theme. Yeah. Like my thing with Trey is man look put blinders on, bro. Whatever's going to happen is going to happen.

So, you needed to end the show with this message to Trey. Yeah. Put blinders on. Whatever's going to happen is going to happen. You know, you have value on on you know what you were born to do. Play basketball. Can't be distracted by things. But more importantly, when you're in this position, it's called career earnings for a reason. Add it all up at the end. That's how I look at it. You're

saying he'll extend his career as a money maker if he accepts a role as something less than the engine of a team.

Absolutely. The way De'Arren Fox did. Absolutely. And De'Arren happened to get a max right again.

But what I'm saying is going forward everyone will figure it out and they'll have a if everyone stays healthy, they'll have a great time and at the end of the day he'll play forever and make a make tons of money.

Yes. That that should be the holistic focus. Absolutely. Yeah. I think Miami. I didn't make a pick.

Sound like you were going with Old Miss. I'll take Old Miss just to be different.

I just want to say the name Trinidad Chamblas a little more. One of the I think that's the most fun name to say in sports right now.

Yeah. Yeah. It combines Felix Trinidad and Chris Chamblas. If you're a Yankees and a boxing fan, you'll love it.

Trinidad. By the way, K sent me the Yankee Wallab bees. Oh. Oh. Oh, my man Ronnie sent him the Yankees walabes.

They're tough. Like the Yankees. They're tough. Yeah, I can imagine. They're tough. Yeah, I'm going to put them together for you.

Oh, don't worry. Much obliged. Nice sweater though, Max. Thank you. Nice. Look good today.

Yes. Game over. Max Kellerman. Rich Paul. Please subscribe and please give us some insight. Do you like the whiteboard? Do you not like the white board? I know you don't like Max. Keep talking about the Giants, but I'm stuck with that. We're stuck with that.

There's nothing I can help you with there. It's okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then we we'll see. By the way, the whole college football coming up on Friday. We got to we're going to have to go over Old Miss and and Miami

and we got the NFL playoffs, the playoffs start. Lot coming up on Friday's show.

There's no playoff game on Friday though, right? Uh, because I want to be able to do our picks.

Yeah. Okay, good. Yeah. Yeah. Well, no, not before Friday. It's not gonna be before Friday.

That's what I'm saying. I mean, I seen a game on Monday. It's a playoff game on Monday. You don't You You don't know what the NFL is going to do. They own every week. You can't You don't know what they're going to do.

Okay, little bonus topic at the very end. I can't take the way to watch a game. I have I have 11 subscriptions, 15 passwords, different devices. Take it anymore. It's better for you now cuz I don't I I think all these games are on TV all like to get the Lakers. Impossible to get Lakers games

in LA. You need Spectrum because if it's out of market and you have YouTube TV and and this and that and but you need Spectrum TV. I I can't take it.

Max, I think you're fine. Game over. Max Kellerman, Rich Paul. See you on Friday.

See you on Friday, guys. must be 21 and over and present in select states. For Kansas, an in affiliation with the Kansas Star Casino or 18 and over and present in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming gambling problem, call 1800gambler or visit rg-help.com. Call 1888789777 or visit ccpg.org/hat org/hat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinemma.org or or call 800327-50 for 247 support in Massachusetts or call 18778-NY or text hopey in New York.

Questions about this episode

What is discussed in "What It Takes to Make a Trade"?

In order: 0:00 Jim Harbaugh, Cleveland Browns, FanDuel, Larry Bird; 10:00 Jim Harbaugh, Trey Young, Andy Reid, Cleveland Browns; 20:00 Trey Young, Larry Bird, Rich Paul; 30:00 Trey Young; 40:00 Austin Reeves, Anthony Davis, CJ McCullum, Cooper Flag; 50:00 DeAndre Aton; 1:10:00 Old Miss, Trey Young, Austin Reeves, Will and Ariel Durant; 1:20:00 Max Kellerman, Rich Paul, Old Miss.

What is mentioned in this Game Over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul episode?

21 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Trey Young, Jim Harbaugh, Rich Paul, Austin Reeves, Old Miss, Max Kellerman. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "What It Takes to Make a Trade"?

The episode runs 1 h 23 min; the transcript is about 15,406 words in 348 timestamped sections.

More from Game Over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul

About this transcript: the episode's spoken words as captioned on YouTube, split into timestamped sections. Reclip.Me locates every person, work and idea in the text, keeps the time it is first named, and quotes the words around it verbatim. Last updated January 24, 2026.