Transcript

Wide-Open AFC, Holiday Thoughts, and a Surprise Phone Call

From Game Over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul · Episode page · Watch on YouTube

· 57 min · 11,277 words · 270 timestamped sections

This is the full, timestamped transcript of "Wide-Open AFC, Holiday Thoughts, and a Surprise Phone Call", an episode of Game Over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul published December 22, 2025 (57 min, about 11,277 words). It mentions 10 people, works and ideas, including Trevor Lawrence, Rich Paul, FanDuel, Max Kellerman, Cleveland Browns.

What is discussed, and when

  1. – 5:00: FanDuel, Max Kellerman, NBA Cup, Rich Paul
  2. – 10:00: Trevor Lawrence
  3. – 15:00: Trevor Lawrence
  4. – 25:00: FanDuel, Rich Paul
  5. – 30:00: FanDuel, NBA Cup
  6. – 40:00: Max Kellerman, Rich Paul
  7. – 50:00: Houston Texans, Trevor Lawrence
  8. – 57:28: Max Kellerman, Rich Paul

Notable quotes from "Wide-Open AFC, Holiday Thoughts, and a Surprise Phone Call"

  • Yeah, I'm not so positive about your Browns, but I hear you. Trevor Lawrence and the Jaguars, though, that's a big I want I got some stuff to say about that.
    about Trevor Lawrence · at
  • That's very nice. We listen, we got a lot to get into. Let's do it. Let's do it. Game over is presented by FanDuel.
    about FanDuel · at
  • Yeah. But in the new year, I would say this also. In the new year, will the Houston Texans be the Super Bowl champs?
    about Houston Texans · at

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

  • Trevor Lawrence — Person · 10 mentions · first at
  • Rich Paul — Person · 4 mentions · first at
    Yeah, that's right. Max Kellerman, Rich Paul, game over. Subscribe. Listen, Rich AFC is wide open.
  • Max Kellerman — Person · 3 mentions · first at
    Yeah, that's right. Max Kellerman, Rich Paul, game over. Subscribe. Listen, Rich AFC is wide open.
  • Fred VanVleet — Person · 2 mentions

Companies & orgs

Concepts & topics

  • NBA Cup — Concept · 2 mentions · first at
    Use their bonuses from the cuz they made a lot of money. Half a million dollars bonuses from the NBA cup to pay staff that didn't get bonuses.

Full transcript with timestamps

Oh, we're getting ready for Christmas. You I like You're already kind of like dressed for Christmas a little bit.

You think so? Yeah, that's right. Max Kellerman, Rich Paul, game over. Subscribe. Listen, Rich AFC is wide open.

Wide open for me. Not for you. My Browns, man. The thing about it is you did you think they were going to win that game?

We look good. I'm I'm positive about my Browns, but on the Monday after we lose, I'm not I'm not at my best, but I am positive. Go ahead.

Yeah, I'm not so positive about your Browns, but I hear you. Trevor Lawrence and the Jaguars, though, that's a big I want I got some stuff to say about that.

I want to know what you have to say about the reaction to of the fans to LeBron James saying that he would rather not play on Christmas. Well, I would rather not have to sit here and try to find out what am I buying on Christmas for people. It's the worst thing. The pressure

the pressure of finding gifts for rich people. Well, I'm not saying all rich. The pressure of finding gifts period is

but the circles that you travel in ratchets. I'm not buying everybody. I tell people don't buy me a gift cuz I'm not just don't buy me anything. That way I don't feel compelled. Oh, that would be so nice if people didn't have to.

That would be fantastic. Gifts should be for kids. Kids should get the gift. The adults with the gift giving. It's too much.

I do the kids, but we could talk about that. Yeah. Also, you know what I'm into is what the Knicks just did. The players use their bonuses from the cuz they made a lot of money. Half a million dollars bonuses from the from the NBA cup

to pay staff that didn't get bonuses. This is giving time of the year. It is. That's nice.

That's very nice. We listen, we got a lot to get into. Let's do it. Let's do it. Game over is presented by FanDuel. FanDuel's got it all. Same game parlays, quick bets for jumping in live and your way so you can build the bet that fits your play. Plus, don't miss out on holiday offers and surprises all month long. Download the FanDuel app or head to fanduel.com/gameover to get started. 21 and over and present in select states or 18 and over and present in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1800 gambler or visit rg-help.com.

Call 1888789777 or visit ccpg.org/hat in Connecticut. Man, a couple weeks ago, I thought that the AFC was going to boil down to the Bills and the Texans when the dust settled because the way the Texans were playing defense. The Bills had just come back on the Pats. It was their second comeback in two weeks. And I that's probably still my those are my two teams in the AFC. But I gotta say, Rich, the that's a wide openen conference. That is what [clears throat] the Jags just did with the Broncos. The way the Broncos have looked before the Jags game,

the Steelers you cannot count out because you have a championship coach and the way Aaron Rodgers is playing kind of under control game manager, make a few big plays when you need them to

that that that conference is wide open. But for me that it still comes down to when all is said and done like the Texans, I'm not worried about them struggling against the Raiders. That was kind of predictable. It's a trap game this type this time of year. You're of course you're going to look past the Raiders

any given Sunday, right? Get the win, get the win. They got the win. And when I look at them still, the front seven is crazy. And you have a quarterback who makes special plays when you need him to. He did it again yesterday. And Deo Ryan's like, you have the coach, you have the quarterback, you have the defense. So Texans to me are my sleeper pick to win the Super Bowl. And I think that stays that way. And I probably still

at least get there bet on the Bills over anyone in the AFC. I I The thing I like about the Texans is

it's one of those things where I think them just the way they lost last year. Yeah. I think that continuity, the professionalism, like I said before, if they get to a place to where we're familiar with this now, I think they now are understanding how to win games that may not be

Yeah. favored or sloppy or whatever the case. And in the playoffs, that experience even matters

even more. Isn't it amazing how the Chiefs go down, Mahomes goes down, and now for the f Because for years now, everyone's making noise about the Bills, especially because they want Josh Allen to be the guy. You have your eyes on the Chargers, but your eye on the Chargers, but they're going to charge her the way the Clippers Clipper usually, and Justin Herbert just the the results weren't matching the talent. But in the end, for me, it was always, yeah, but I know who's going to be there in the end. the Chiefs will be in the AFC Championship game and they will probably advance to the Super Bowl and that's taken away.

And it's almost like when um Jordan stepped away for those two years. I know he came back and lost to the Magic, but he played 20some games. His legs weren't there. Those two years he really stepped away and you could kind of see a parallel NBA universe. What if there was no Bulls? Who who was who would have been the team of this era? and it was Elijahan and and the Rockets and now it's almost it's not at quite at that level but no Mahomes or Chiefs in the AFC and now we kind of get to see a parallel universe who wants to take that one of the guys who's stepping up right now and it's crazy because we were talking about this the other day uh quarterbacks or athletes who flip the script who write their own script where the media has a narrative about a guy.

And it's not with bad intentions. It's that you're trying to see what's there. You know, you're trying to to to tell the story of what's happening as best you can. I know that's what I do. And you know, like if a guy like James Harden suddenly caught fire in the playoffs and won a championship, that'd be incredible because he hasn't been that guy throughout his career in the playoffs in the in the moments of truth. Steph did that for me in 2022 with the with the Warriors. I mentioned that like end of the series he's the best player on either team wins the championship. He had never done that before. He did it and great you know give him his due when a guy like for example Sam Darnold has the game he did against the Rams the other day. It's like oh look at this. He did everything he oh here it comes.

Darnold's going to turn it over. They're going to lose. The difference on these two teams is one has Stafford, the other has Darnold. No, he flipped it. Trevor Lawrence. Trevor Lawrence, Rich, going into this season, it's not an exaggeration to say he was a bust because

I don't know about a bust. Rich, he came out of college with more hype than anyone since Andrew Luck. Maybe even more than Luck. Well, he played on great Clemson teams, but what I would say is guys like Trevor Lawrence, Sam Darnold, and and really pretty much anybody like anybody, forget the forget the sport of it all. Let's just talk about in life. In life, you have to be able to, and it's one of my favorite songs from New Edition. She got to be able to stand, man. You you do because because the thing I think people don't understand is and I try to for the guys that I represent there's an accountability that comes with you standing the reign and we all have expectations as fans of what a player should be, how fast they should develop, you know, how they should should be able to produce night in and night out.

That's our expectation. But they're the ones obviously under center or under the gun or whatever the case may be. And in and in this case, I look at all these guys and when we talk about guys coming back, guys rewriting their story and things like that, it's literally just standing the ring. I used to go to

Can I say one thing real quick about New Edition? Do you know I remember when they dropped in in uh I was in the fifth grade. I think it was the fifth grade. And you was in the fifth grade when new edition came out.

Maybe fourth grade. Yeah. Damn, you old man. Yeah. Yeah, man. So So you look good though.

Do you know Do you know? Yeah, that's true. And And not only that, but as you age,

I'm going to put you on fifth grade. New edition came out in like 78. No, no, no. Early age. No, I know.

No, no. Early 80. But as you age, the standard goes down. So as long as you don't totally fall apart, you're considered better look. Uh New Edition when they People don't even know why they're called New Edition. They were called New Edition because it was like they were the new addition of the Jackson 5. That was the original idea. I Yeah. Old and

I didn't know that. Yeah. But one of my favorite groups, but yeah, you have to just be able to stand the rain. And I think Trevor Lawrence is an example of that. He should actually play the song in his locker the next game because it's it's one of those things where we're seeing it. He's always had something. You don't draft a guy number one that don't have any.

You know what I what what really what surprised me about how now look I always preach patience with quarterbacks. We want quarterbacks to be great on their first contract because people had the mistaken idea in the NFL. We need to win on the rookie window because we're saving money there when in fact that almost never happens that you win with a with a quarterback in his rookie deal. Um it's usually by the time he gets to his second deal.

Well, if you do that's a big luxury. No question. But the point is, you don't need them to make that happen. Like, you need to draft the right guy, develop him, and hope you have the coach quarterback for the next 10, 12 years. That's really should be the strategy. So, I'm all for patience with the quarterback. In Trevor Lawrence's case, it surprised me because he wins the natty right after uh Deshaawn Watson, and he does it he does it kind of more easily. He had a better team, but he didn't like, you know, they just kind of crushed everybody. And I mean, well,

and he's and he's a freshman, right? Yeah. Then then the next year, he he has a little sophomore slump,

but I remember that game. It was against Georgia Tech. He throws the interception and then chases the dude down in the open field and makes the tackle, preventing the and and to me that's like super Ben Rothllessberger, like the type of stuff that you saw from Ben Rothllessberger in college, but more athletic. So, you're talking about Trevor Lawren. Are you Are you rocking with Jacksonville yet?

I I think I am. I think they're they're real. They replace who? I don't know if they No, I I still Texans Bills for me, but that's why I say the conference is wide open. Jacksonville, Denver, uh New England

because just last week he was on the Bo Knicks train. Yeah. I I still think that that they have something in Bo Knicks. Like I said, the Broncos, it's Trevor Lawrence,

it's Drake May. Yep. It's Josh Allen. Yep. You still believe that the Ravens is going to get into the

CJ Strad? No, I don't know about I don't know about them getting No. Aaron Rogers with Pittsburgh is dangerous.

This is like a six dangerous teams. You're like stocking stuffing. Oh, excuse me.

AFC team. Excuse me. The Chargers with Justin Herbert. But you just said the Chargers was the Clippers.

They're ch That's what I'm saying. In the absence of Momes and the Chiefs, the the script has been flipped. like it's wide open. We're gonna see who was destined in the end, right? Like who we're going to look back on and say, "Oh, when the Chiefs weren't there, this is who it was. This was the guy. This was the team." But I'm saying about Trevor Lawrence, it really could be him.

Because No, but I just want to be clear. You think that the Jacksonville Jaguars could get to what?

Super Bowl. They could potentially win it this year. They're not my pick. I'm saying the but they could wind up in the AFC Championship game. And if you can do that, you have a shot. I'm saying those we just listed seven teams or I did seven teams where it's like that's everyone in the playoffs.

That's good for the NFL. It's good for the NFL. And Lawrence is a guy Rich who to me,

if this is sustainable and he continues to do this has gone for me from a bust. I'm not I understand you have to be patient. I'm making that point. But from a guy was like, "Damn, that's what Trevor Lawrence did this many years in to a guy where it's like, oh, he's doing it now."

You spend a lot of time on Trevor Lawrence. Yeah. This is a lot of time spent on Trevor Lawrence,

dude. So, I just want to make sure. Yeah. Because you're spending a lot of dollars on Trevor Lawrence right now. And I'm a Trevor Lawrence fan. I like Trevor Lawrence.

Yeah. But you're spending a lot of dollars on Trevor Lawrence right now. You didn't even spend this much on Sam Darnold, who had an unbelievable game. Well, because Sam Darnold wasn't out of college with the same level of hype.

Yeah, but once you get Okay. But I do think it's different when a guy comes out like think of the NBA. If a guy comes out with a Weby level hype or LeBron level hype or something like that,

apparently apparently you get no credit for the hype. LeBron surely isn't getting any credit for exceeding the hype. So, I think it's

we can move on from that. Isn't it an interesting story? If a guy comes out with that level of hype, you're almost at the point where it's like, okay, we got to call this what it is. That's a bust compared to the expectations. And number one overall pick, not only that, but the best number one overall pick in at least 10 years, and this is what you get. I'm saying now he's he's rewriting the story right now, it seems to me.

Okay. If what does he have to get to the AFC Championship game for that now? No, I'm just I'm I'm with you. I think it's good for the NFL.

Yeah, I think so, too. Your Browns, we've already like Do you care to say anything about your Browns?

Well, here's the thing. I feel good about the effort that we're we're we're giving. Obviously, we're not in a playoff hunt, which is fine. I think we'll get a good draft pick this year. Um, but you know, I think the NFL is better when the Browns are in the playoffs. See, you don't understand what it's like to be a Browns fan. I don't think you understand. My dad used to sing this song when Bernie Kar was the quarterback. It was on the radio everywhere. We thought we were going to the Super Bowl. It was the we're playing the AFC Championship game. When you get that close, you should know this, it's it just stays with you and everything is being a Browns fan is you're in a totally different universe. It's like being a fan of Star Wars or, you know, one of those legacy

kids watch now like Stranger Things. The reason that the Browns are even in Cleveland is because of the of the dog pound really. Like when those fans, the reason they have a franchise is when the original Browns left, there was such a grassroots.

You saying in 1995? Yeah. There was such a grassroots movement to have a Browns franchise that that actually not an astroturf movement meaning like not a corporate sponsored movement that is made to look grassroots an actual grassroots movement by the ticket holders who were there rain or shine to bring back a franchise. They awarded the expansion franchise to Cleveland. not only gave him the Browns name, but the history, they got to keep the history with the new

course because they to but the championship that the Ravens won. No, I'm just agreeing with you. I think it's the most underrated

fan base in in sports might be the Browns fans. Yeah. And the champion the Super Bowl that was won that was supposed to be

the Browns Super Bowl. And I talked to you for I talked to Azie Newsome a couple weeks ago. unbelievable conversation for me because obviously one of the greatest tight ends in the history of the game

and what a legacy as a GM too. That too, but it was just one of those surreal moments that I'm talking to Azie Newsome who I grew up watching and he made some of the, you know, the tight end when they get that first down. Azie Newsome was, you got to put him up there with who? Winslow and

Yeah. Now, Kelsey and Grank Grank and uh what's my guy from um San Diego? How can I forget?

Because he's really more of a a wide out than a tight end. Antonio Gates Gates Gates is the ultimate like man that looks like a wide out to me. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, yes, but he was a tight end. But there's so many. But Azie Newsome was just and those Browns teams like you talk about the dog pound, you know, our defense that we had. This is This is Clay Matthews. This is Carl Banks. This is Minfield and and and Hamford Dixon. Hardhitting Hanford Dixon. So, you don't know about this. I'm saying I'm saying I agree with you that I'm giving I am giving you

I'm giving the Browns fans their flowers. So you understand the the culture the culture of the Browns fandom is so real that they have given the fans almost nothing to cling to but the fans still support

and watching the game the Browns game you know my dad had the store so the Browns game was on and as they're the game is closer you know he would let people you just kind of just standing around and you get to see everybody's reaction and excitement to win the Browns. It just seemed like when the Browns won, everything was better for me. For someone

like life was better that week. Yeah. Because we didn't have a ton, but for someone who didn't have much in front of you, when the when the Browns won, it just made everything

I wonder for the average fan, I've asked this before, like on radio, uh, what percentage of your quality of life increases when your team wins?

A lot. Like what? But what would you say? It's your whole life is 10% better, 20% better.

This is why it matters so much in small markets. See, I said this to somebody the other day. When you're when you're a big market team, you don't have the pressures that a small market team has. And let me tell you why. in a in in a big market. And this is why like Mark Walters, you really have to tip your hat to him and his staff because he's in a big market and he's still doing the details and the and his, you know, when you talk about the baseball front office and analytics and the performance and using AI and doing all these things and and and being like ultraaggressive going to get show when he signed Muki when he went and got Freddy Freeman and you know signing the other um the pitcher like to be in a big market to have the marquee team and to still do all the necessary

as though you're in a small market as though you're in a small market to be great because the reality of it is this.

I mean, if the Dodgers lose, right? The sun's still shining. Everyone's doing this what they got to do in LA.

And and that's what I'm saying. It's still it's a lot of things going on. People at museums, you're at concerts. You're at the beach. If the Browns lose or the Bills lose or a team like that, the whole town is depressed.

Exactly. And know what else happens? The economy. Yeah. The economy when when when the Cavs are in the playoffs all those years and then when they go to the playoffs and you go to the finals every year, the economy was going up 20%. You know how everything matters. Just I think about people that are just serving drinks, the tips they get because the team is really

because they're happy, right? All the way up to obviously, you know, the the the season ticket holders that's that's sitting on the floor. They may own a company and because they're they're winning, you know, they people get to go to games and sit on the floor that probably wouldn't ever got there. You know, a good friend of mine, the Lebo family out of Cleveland, they own Majestic Steel. I watched the way my close friend Todd Lebo I watched the way he treats the everyone right they had they had a a box then they had the courtside seats and you know this is a steel company so you know people are making x amount of dollars they can't really afford to go sit on the floor or sit in a box and I watched how he had to to to do

you understand what you said earlier about how it's hard to get people presents on Christmas for you see my good friend who owns the steel company. That's why it's hard for you to get people presence because because your friends the circles you travel in own steel companies.

Yeah. But the thing about it is that's not I when we met I didn't know that. Right.

We met just just just two guys kind of like I'm not saying you're looking to have rich friends. I'm saying that rich's friends are rich

and I've had some friends that are are are and it's easier to get the poor ones.

But here's here's on Christmas. Here's what I'll say to that. It's not about rich or poor monetarily. It's about how rich your character is. And you could be poor monetarily and have rich character. So

So I'm we're just talking about in terms of getting Christmas presents. Yeah. But it's easier to get your broke friends presents than it is your rich friends.

You'd be surprised by that. See, you never been to See, you think you're invited to the cookout, Max, but you never actually been at the cookout.

I've been at the cookout. Okay. Well, you know, if you go to the cookout, if you go if you having a barbecue in the backyard

Yeah. and then you go to the front yard of the cookout, there's people there complaining about is it tilapia or is it orange ruffy?

That's a big deal at a cookout. I can't believe they didn't have no beef ri. You're saying it has to be specific. The gift still.

Well, it don't matter how rich or poor you are. You're going to be talked about if you got top shelf liquor or bottom shelf liquor. What at the cookout? Yeah.

You go and ask for a drink. Oh, I see what you're saying. You're saying because you're rich, not rich Paul because you got money, you will be judged a certain way by everybody you give presents to.

I'm saying yes. It don't matter if someone's understand or whatever the case may be, if they high net worth or not

at the cookout. Yeah. Amongst the whatever class when I was there's nothing you can do about it if you're broke. You got the liquor you got because that's what you can afford.

That don't stop people from complaining. Talk, but that's still I mean my dad on a on a again on a th on a on a from Sunday to Wednesday.

Yeah. My dad drank bunettes. Mhm. On Thursday through Saturday, he would drink Tangare, but he would have it like behind his chair. So if Max comes in and you a high paying customer and you say, "Rich, what you drink?" I'm I'm having a drink. And he would say, "Can I have some?" Depending on who it was, you might get the Tangare or you might get the Bernette.

So much of life is fronting. It's unbelievable. That forever. I remember walking around with a beeper. No battery in the beeper. No service the beeper. But you still weren't on the

Wait a minute. But did you have the Did you have the bottom on because you know the the the bottom of the

Yeah. And no battery in it. So it still looked like it still looked like it was or even if there is a battery in it but the service isn't you know the service isn't paid but you still rock the

Yeah. I mean we we we've all done that Max say that to say to you as far as buying a Christmas gift. It don't matter somebody's stature or whatnot. You could buy the most the wealthiest person a a a gift that you think is nice and they will complain about it.

But you're we're talking about two different things. I'm saying I have rich friends and I have broke friends. If I want to get something from my broke friend, it's easy because there's a lot of stuff that they would like that they don't have. Getting something for your rich friend is hard because anything they have they want.

You This isly logical statement. You're saying it's easy, but you're not there when they open up the gift.

Oh, that's true. When they open up the gift, if it's something they don't like, they're talking about you whether they rich or or poor. You could guarantee that.

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Optin required. Bonus issued as non-withdrawable profit boost tokens. Restrictions apply, including any token expiration and max wager amount. See terms at sportsbook.fanuel.com. Gambling problem, call 1800gambler or visit rg-help.com. Call 188878977777 or visit ccpg.org back in Connecticut. Now, what were we talking about before we got onto this tangent? The Browns fandom. Oh,

no. Yeah, that reminds me. You know what? You know what that reminds me of? The Knicks. Boy, I grew up a Knicks fan. But I heard something, you know, it's been reported that the Knicks that I wanted to ask you about because Knicks fans have to feel good about this, I imagine. right? In one way at least. So, the Knicks players are taking the bonus money, some of the bonus money

that they got from winning the the NBA Cup. Half a million a piece. Little bit over.

A little over. 533 to be exact. 33 G's. Let's not pretend that's 53396. That's right.

I think that was the exact number. You can get all your broke friends Christmas gifts with that money.

Now, you have to pay taxes, even your rich friends. Now, they're taking some of that and they're giving bonuses to staff on the Knicks that don't get bonuses. So, I had two thoughts about that. I want to know because you've seen this from every angle.

On the one hand, I'm thinking James Dolan, whatever bad things I've said about him, he's known as being a generous like uh NBA franchise owner, right? I never heard him I never heard people say, "Oh, Dolan played played us cheap that way." And yet players have to pick up the slack for the fact that there's there's staff that the players feel should be compensated who aren't being compensated a certain way and they're kind of covering for ownership there.

No, they're not. What? That is not true. Why Why don't those people get bonuses?

That is false. You can't put First of all, Mr. Dolan's generous. Just leave it at that.

Dolan. Oh, you doing business with this dude. No, I'm just saying Jim Dolan is generous. Leave it at that. Okay. That has nothing to do with ownership because the here's the thing. There's there's people that work amongst the team. The players to me this is more of a admiration from the players to say, "Hey, these people are here every day with us. We see these people and we won." It also says a lot about the people as well because when you see somebody every single day, they see these people more than they see their family. And so the players are deciding to do this because sometimes whether you're a staff member, you may not have in your contract a certain playoff share, a certain number of tickets you get, bonus, different things like that. So that's on one. I'm Dolan and I hear that the players are paying bonuses to the staff. What I'm doing is that's great. They want to do that. I'm

matching all the bonuses to the staff. He didn't. That's true. I don't know he did, but I have not read that he did.

But this is the problem with me that you don't always have to read it. Well, there's people that do Here's the thing. There's people that do

Pablo Tori find out about this one. There's people that do a lot of nice things for other people and you never know about it.

That's true. So, no. No. And I by the way I started this by saying he's known as a generous dude.

Yeah. But then you I'm just saying like I noticed that if that the that the way the reporting rich the reporting is that the players are giving a part of their bonus

to staff that is not getting bonuses. Yes. But everybody's contract doesn't come with the bonus.

And I'm saying maybe they should have owned a company before. Not not like the Knicks. No.

Okay. But what I'm saying is when you own a company, there's contractual agreements. There's language within those agreements.

And the admiration is the players play for what team? The Knicks. And the players decided to do what?

Pay staff that don't get bonuses, part of their own bonuses because ownership isn't given.

That is not true. See, that is not true. It has zero to do with ownership. You're taking it way above through the GM. What are you talking about?

No. No. You're taking it across the bridge. The players decide to do a very generous thing during the Christmas holiday time for people that they felt deserve it, right? They It's still a reflection of the Knicks organization regardless how you look.

It is a reflection of the team that that the front office put together. Because here's the other thing. What you don't hear about is I know for for s for certain there's been times that people probably did deserve this and it didn't happen

and that ownership did give okay but I'm not talking about those I'm talking about this time where it appears that you can't that the that the players are picking up the slack for

that's not true. I disagree. Well, we don't know if that's true or not. We don't know if that's true or not. But I still disagree with that because you can't put everything on ownership all the time in that in that way.

This is Is this Mr. Bias coming out just No, it's not Mr. Bias. Do you have to put Just because you have to do business with all these teams?

No, it don't. I don't have I mean, I have one player, but I'm just being honest, you know, because by the way,

first of all, when you own a company, it used to be this time of year is when bonuses

are given out. Yeah. It's the most difficult thing to deal with because it don't matter what you do. People aren't happy. It don't matter how big the

second time that you've hit this theme on this show. So, in other words, your experience has been at times when you're in a certain position, whatever you do, the expectations, some people, it won't reach certain people's expectations.

No. Right. So, that's that's true. I think we've all experienced that. So, what I'm saying is, and I'm so glad we don't do bonuses around this time anymore because it's it's too much of a fluster and a cluster and people trying to you got the holiday thing like don't even have to worry about it. Let's just let's just punt.

But I'm just disagreeing with the fact that I think we should make it about the Knicks players did a great thing.

Let's talk about that for a second. this this front office has put together a team like the Nova Knicks and everything and you have to do the Devanchenzo and Julius Randall deal for Cat. I get that and that broke up the Nova Knicks a little but still the the the kind of nucleus is there. There's a certain and we see this in the NFL when you know teams started drafting the quarterback's receiver from college because you have already that built-in relationship and chemistry. Saw it in Cincinnati. You've seen it in in a lot of places. Um, but the Knicks kind of take that took that philosophy a bit, it looks like, and it's worked in terms of the cohesiveness of of the team. There's good chemistry and team cohesion. And as a fan who watches that, I think, oh, this bodess well for the Knicks. This is not a, you know, in baseball, they used to have a an expression like 24 different cabs after the game. No one was having dinner

together. They all, you know, on that kind of team. But this Knicks team is like the opposite of that it seems to me. And when I see something like the fact that they're giving part of their bonus from winning the cup to staff, that is like the kind of you my first thing is what we already discussed. And my next thing is that looks like a team that's together because the stars have to come together, the rich ones, and be like, you know, the highest paid dudes and and be cat and Brunson and OG and be like, you know what we should do? So that that idea has to come from somewhere and they have to agree to it and kind of all do it together. Is that a good sign for this team?

Yeah, it's always a good sign when you have continuity and and things of that nature, that don't mean you that don't necessarily mean you're going to win a championship, but yeah, it's it's it to me when that type of stuff happens, the way I look at it is because what we don't know is yeah, it may have came from the top the a top player. Everybody might not agree to it, but when every but you you look like a

you can't be a class clown in that situation when everyone's doing right. So that's one thing. But to answer your question, the answer is yes. And I think what that equates to is when we're on the basketball floor.

Yeah. And I have a swing swing. Do I hesitate or do I just swing that ball? Right.

That matters. And so when you enjoy playing with each other, what's the hesitation about? Like I want to take the shot.

Yeah. The hesitation is equivalent to if you hesitated in terms of giving your your share for the bonus, then that mean you're going to hesitate on the swing swing.

Interesting. Right. Yeah. So there you're saying there is a correlation between that and cohesion and all that.

I believe. Yeah. Of course. But we but there's also teams that have won and players didn't necessarily like each other,

right? There's more than one way to do it, right? Sure. I rather be cohesive and have continuity and collaborate to then bring forth winning the possibility of winning a championship versus the other side of it.

So, let me ask you about another team right now. Not that I'm interviewing you here, but I was curious about your NBA takes about this. The Rockets. We talked la last week or two weeks ago about they can win the championship this year. That's

You said that the Rockets you believe the Rockets can win. They could win the whole thing this year. I believe so. They stay healthy. It's a big if, but you know, like you could say that about any team.

They're not exceptionally deep, but they have a hellified starting five. Okay. So,

missing Fred, but yes. Right. If if if Van Vleet and we don't know if he's going to come back. It doesn't look good right now. If

How do you know if it looks good or not? Because from everything I've read, it seems like he's out for the season.

Did you see any of the guy's workouts? No. Have you talked to him? No. I'm just

You like to talk to him? Van Vleet. Sure. Call him right now. Call Call Van Vleet right now. Let's see.

Let's call is he cuz we we need to we need to like get to the bottom of this cuz this is the second or third time that this topic has come up.

Yeah. I just want to see, you know, from what I have read, it seems that he's out for the season.

He may be training, but let me see if he answers the phone. Now that you did this, it's kind of a let down if he doesn't answer the phone.

Of course, he's going to answer the phone for me. Are you crazy, Max? Fred. Yo,

you we're live on game over right now with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul and Max Kellerman is sitting here acting as if he knows what your rehab is like.

Hold on. I did not do that. I said it looks like he's out for the season. That's what I'm

You know Max, you know, you know Max know everything. Seeing See, Fred, are you coming back this year or not?

That's not No, no, no. We're not doing that. All I'm saying is Fred Max said it looks like you're out for the season. He said he read it and I said, "Did you see any of his workouts? Have you talked to Fred?" He said, "No." I said, "Okay, well, let's call him." So, we're just going to ask Fred, "How are you feeling? And are we optimistic?" How about that?

Good. I feel great. I'm actually in the middle of rehab right now. I knew that.

I had to pick I had I had to answer the phone for Richie P. But, uh, yeah, I feel great, man. Feeling strong and

we'll just see where things go. My hopes high. Yeah. We see where we at at the end.

That's it. That's all you get, Max. That's it. Good enough. If Fred, thank you.

Okay, Fred, thank you. If Hey yo, listen. I don't know who edit y'all clips on uh Instagram, but they edited me out when y'all was talking about the Rockets. I seen Rich. Rich said they got Fred. They got

We can't edit Fred out on Instagram. A matter of fact, we were Man, that's crazy.

We were saying that you are the key. As a matter of fact, if Van Vleet comes back, I think I might pick the Rockets. [clears throat]

Yeah, I feel the same way. I appreciate y'all. Good job. All right, Fred. All right. [clears throat]

Now, now that he's off the phone, I think I might take I might put bring him off the bench though if he comes back.

I like the way because a six man, that's a killer. There's no Van Fleet six. Here's the thing.

But also, he but he has to get his legs back. You know, I would tell you this, Fred is the type of guy

that's going to do whatever he needs to do to win a championship, right? He is that guy. Like, he is a winner by all winners and even off the floor. So when he sees you, cuz he will see you.

Sure. And you guys can have your own conversation. But I knew that he was in rehab and I also knew he would pick up the phone.

I'm saying it's that that's cool and all, but now let's see him actually come back at the end of the season.

We can't you can't, right? You can't though. If you are saying he will be back and and and Raphael and Eay will get with Fred and if there's they're they're not going to jeopardize him, of course,

they're going to protect them. So, if he's able to come back, he'll come back. We've seen these guys, they're coming back, right? We're seeing these guys really come back

from these injuries. It's not like Adrien Peterson back in the day where he's the only guy to do it.

Speaking of coming back. Yeah. Anthony Joshua. Oh, yeah. I was going to get Yeah. Forget the Rockets. Yeah. Yeah.

But can I before you get to before you get to AJ, can I ask you about because I am curious about your answer about the Rockets.

No, I like the Rockets. But like they've lost three out of four and it seems to me I want schedule right that time of year. Road trip back to three games in four nights.

Yeah. When you're going into these cities, they come off a a big win in Denver.

Yeah. A big win in Denver. Which, by the way, that that makes me think you're playing three games in four nights. You're on a long road trip, but the game you really show up for is against the Nuggets. That tells me good things because it means that they can when they're when they're, you know, they can get that done. And there's certain times you you know where you go into cities and your energy is just low,

right? You know, they they have they on a they on a pretty not gruesome, but three games and four nights is a lot.

And the travel Denver Yeah. sack then I think they come to LA, play the Clippers tomorrow and and play the Lakers on Christmas.

So in other words, you're not worried about the Rockets, it's the schedule. No. And look, it's the NBA. You think that you see the game that those guys had. Russ had a great game. Russ hit a tying three. Uh Schroeder hit the hit the game-winning shot. Dear guys played well. The Kings got, you know, they they played well

and and now maybe Van Vleet comes back at the end of the year. Well, I I I tell you one thing, the if you were to ask the Rockets, would they want Van Fleet to come back?

I'm sure they would be like, absolutely. Yeah. Speaking of comebacks. Yes. The Anthony Joshua Jake. We talked about it.

Yep. Did you watch the fight? Of course you did. I watched the fight, too. I was at dinner while watching the fight.

The ring walks were too early. That's why I didn't call you to come over because I knew you were out and about.

Yeah, but we we were able to watch it. Um, is this a comeback for Do you count like do you even count that?

No. I mean, for an Anthony Joshua, no, the story is not AJ other than he had uh he was maybe going to do a fight before the Tyson Fury fight and that's now I would not recommend he fight anyone before Tyson Fury.

Fights are fixed thing with Jake Paul. It's that's people like the whole thing first of all with Mike Tyson. I see this online. Oh, Mike could have hit him and he didn't throw a punch. Jake boxing fans were appreciative that Jake didn't hurt Mike. It was very clear after the second or third round that Jake could have and he's like, I respect Mike Tyson. I'm not going to do that. Against Anthony Joshua, Jake came out like it's incredible what he did. People are critical of him of Jake because he was tackling his legs. He was trying he was running. He was trying to survive.

Duh. Who do you think Jake Paul is a Disney kid YouTuber who decided as an adult, I want to try boxing. It's not like he had a whole bunch of amateur fights as a kid coming up. As an adult, I want to try boxing. He's fighting other YouTubers. He's fighting retired athletes. He's fighting MMA guys who don't strike. He's fighting MMA guys who do strike, but they're but they're past their prime. You know, he's fighting little boxers. He's fighting ancient boxers. And finally, he was like, "Oh, you guys want to see me fight someone where I'm not

I tell you what, I tip my hat in the ring with a former heavyweight champ. I tip my hat to him because that right, what was it? a right cross.

Yeah. Me or you? He would have knocked us out the ring. He He would have killed us.

Completely out the ring. We would have been sitting in the stands. I don't know if I could. People always say, "Would you take a punch from somebody for x amount of dollars,

man? I've taken a punch for I've taken a punch for free." Yeah, that's the whole thing.

But but I tip my hat to Jake Paul. It was it was it was it was Anthony Joshua is 65 250 Olympic gold medalist, former heavyweight champ. And let me tell you something, the punches that Jake was landing weren't doing anything to Anthony Joshua before the knockout. Jake had landed more clean punches to the head than AJ had. Now,

I get what people even judging Jake as though he's a fighter on AJ's level is a win for him. Of course he's not going to like did anyone think he was going to beat Anthony Joshua? But the but the thing about this dude about Jake is he has he had so so I read the best novel I've read in the last five years is a novel called Stoner which is not about a dude who smokes weed. It's about a a college professor who and and the theme is really about how an ordinary person can be a hero. Right. Jake, he's athletic. He played high school football, but he's not like, "Oh my god, an incredible world class athlete. I never seen anything like it. He has a big imagination.

He refuses to let other people put limits on him or even he limit himself." And the fact that he actually went five and a half rounds with AJ, these people who were criticizing him would not go 30 seconds with it. Doesn't matter how you try to survive.

I like that to when you're at a blackjack table and the person sit next to you. I had to learn this early on.

Yeah. And they're just playing any type of way. They're staying on 16. They're they're hitting on

Sometimes you just can you can win in a very unorthodox way or you can win even when you lose, but you really won.

So for him to get in the ring with Anthony Joshua one, and then to actually fight, two, he took a hell of a punch. Three,

and he did not have the Tweety Birds around. the way he was still awake when the fight when the fight ended.

Not only that, he was he was very coherent. You know what he posted on his um handle? Like the picture he used, whatever that's called. What's the social media term for the picture you use on your handle? Is him taking that right hand

on his grid. Yeah. It's him taking the right hand. The handle is your That's your name.

On the grid. Whatever the picture is called that you put on your in what's it called?

On his avatar. Yeah. And then there's the if you wanted to like make a statement or I mean we're not the most techsavvy guys neither one of us.

No got people. We do understand it a little bit. So I want to ask you a guy like Max Kellum.

Yes. How do you go into the new year? Oh I have a I I have a new theory about um I just came up with it the other day about New Year's resolutions.

I think like let's say you're trying to lose your gut, right? You're a middle-aged guy. You want to lose your You should resolve your New Year's resolution would be, "I'm not going to lose my gut. I'm gonna keep it."

Yeah. That way the the next year comes at the end of the year when you're always like, "Damn, I didn't do my New Year's resolution. In fact, you did because you still have your gut."

Now, if you lose the gut, you didn't keep your New Year's resolution, but hey, I lost my gut. See what I mean? I'm I'm I'm about that.

That's called flipping the script. Forget about Trevor Lawrence. Yeah. But but in the new year, I would say this also. In the new year, will the Houston Texans be the Super Bowl champs? I want to say yes so bad. That's a crowded field. They could do it, man. They could do it.

I mean, I wouldn't be mad at them if they did. I would I would love to see it. The Texans could do it for many reasons. I would love to see it. I'm just a big De Mo Ryan's fan. I think he I think he does things the right way as a coach. I think he I think his players actually like him. There's something about too having a linebacker as your coach.

Like Demo Ryan, Vable, some dude like that. There's something about Tomlin. Yeah.

Like even like Joe Burrow's dad was was he was a defensive player. I think he was a linebacker. the like there's something about that mentality that translates to me to the even if they don't win the whole thing. Those linebackers who become coaches a lot of times produce the kind of team that you that's easy to root for going into the new year for myself. You know, it's weird because I won't it's not weird. I take that back. I would say it's challenging because my year is like offcentered

because there's no real calendar year. It's just just keeps going. Yeah, it just keeps going.

But I would say I want to become a little more more present. Present in your relationship, you mean?

No, just well present overall. Okay. in every aspect of being present. You find you're distracted.

Well, I think I've been doing a better job and I want and you know what? I got to tip my hat to my clients.

Okay. Because the the guys I work with for the most part, they kind of hold themselves accountable. I don't have to do a lot of babysitting, handholding, or even like

But that's a credit to you because of the kind of people that you associate with and that you choose to represent.

Yeah. If you take high character people, it's lower maintenance. Yeah. This fake like, oh, I got to be there every four days for whatever reason. Like I don't really have that that issue. Um,

physically present for people or you mean? Yeah. No, all of it. like just be, you know, just I'm saying for myself just be more present um in different people's lives that that I that that

that I should be. And then also that's nice. We're doing a Hallmark thing. No. And then also from a just from a leadership perspect I think anytime you're in a leadership role, you can get better at things. And um so that's something I've been really really thinking about and I've gotten I've gotten a lot better.

I've gotten a lot better. You addicted to your phone? Am I addicted to my phone? It's hard. It's kind of hard not to be.

My daughter calls me a screen a a screenager is what is the term? A screenager.

Yeah. In other words, instead of a teen like you're on your phone too much, but the problem is it's not just your phone. It's your TV. It's your it's your mail. It's your this. It's your that. And so like I'm looking at the game, I'm looking at the score, I'm someone's texting me, I just need to be on it a lot, you know?

Yeah. I think I think just being present. I think there's there's a there's a maturation to it all, too. Like you have to think we just continuously mature, especially as men. I think women mature much faster than we do.

Yeah. Obviously, I'll mature one of these days. I'm only I'm 52. It'll happen any second.

You know what? I've been I have matured a lot. Mhm. I still have a long way to go, but maybe I'll ask Santa.

Mhm. This is this Adele beating you in the head with this. No, no, no. This is separate from that.

No, no, no. I mean, I always want to get better in that area, right? Sure. No, no. I think it's just it's business, is personal, it's everything. Like, you just have to continue to to try to work on yourself in that regard. It's me. Like, I don't need anything. I don't need a gift. I don't need I don't want to this this idea of having more and all that. That's not something that I'm looking for. I just

You know, Rich, you bring up this point and it's almost like you're trying to close the show with it. And it seems to me we haven't discussed one very big topic,

which is we're not getting off this show till we talk about this. What's the topic?

LeBron James. He doesn't want to play. He's the the reaction to him saying he would rather not play on Christmas.

That's not what he said. Oh, that is what he said. Yeah. See how I try to slip I try to with two people I try to slip in is Adele and LeBron.

Yeah. No, but he didn't say it in a way that I see actually I thought that the the reaction to it most people were very like understanding.

The way you look at it is and this is the sacrifices that these guys make. Yeah. First of all to be

and he's been doing it for 20 something years now. 21st Christmas Day game. 21 of them. And again, when you talk about being present, you're taking that away, but is also your job. So, what I also saw him say was, "I'm looking forward to it." People skip over that.

And he also said it's something that he's honored to be able to do, but if you ask me what I would rather do,

rather be with your family. I'd rather be with my family, just like anybody else would rather be with their family. But the problem I got with that is if that was anybody else that said that in that capacity, it would have been you like 10 years from now, you'll play that tape on somebody or you'll see MJ say that to Ahmad Rashad,

right? And people will be like, so and again, I'm not not to make it about LeBron, but just making it about players in general because now we got the NFL on Christmas. There's so many days on Christmas games on Christmas. Yeah. And talk about

captive audience. Everyone sitting at home. Here's what I would say to to the guys out there cuz this is a thing about being present, especially in relationships.

All right. To my guys out there, my fellas, we got a packed day on Christmas Day. There's NFL games and there's NBA games.

True. And we have to watch. Yep. But here's what I would say, and I learned this. incredible way to escape your family.

This is part of my maturation. Yeah, you better not do that. There's a way to do both. And here's what I'm saying. Turn the game on in the room.

What are you, an alchemist? I'm just telling you. You turn the game on in the room where the kitchen is. Right.

Okay. So, if you What do you mean in the room where the kitchen is? You mean in the kitchen?

Not in the Yeah, it could be in the kitchen. Or if you mean the little TV on the kitchen. They don't have who has a TV in the kitchen counter?

No. Or you can have where you can there it could be on there's usually a TV that's visible from the kitchen. Okay, I get you.

So, what I'm saying is in the event there's food being prepared. Okay. Don't be in another room watching the game while your better half or whomever is preparing the food. Go in the room where you can still see the game and ask, "Is there anything I can do? Can I wash off some potatoes? Are you taking the trash?

How could you do that and be on social media while you're watching the game? No, no, no, no. Not me. I'm saying or not.

You shouldn't do that. And they should have the stats all there and everything while you're watching the game.

If you want to have a very positive Christmas. Listen to me, Max. This is what you should do because it's a My dad always used I'm going back to my dad because it's just so much wisdom.

By the way, to be a Jew on Christmas, I just order Chinese food. Yeah, I eat Chinese food every Sunday. But here's what I'm telling you,

by the way. Yeah, but here's what I'm telling you. If you want to have a positive Christmas,

these are some because it's not about your what you're doing. It's about the effort that you're making.

Yes. It's strictly need to see effort from My dad used to always say, at least at least the the the appearance of effort.

I never got in trouble for making an effort. What I did get in trouble for was not making an effort. So if you make the effort and it's simple things, they know we can't cook. We're not you're not

You know what the problem with this is though, Rich? The problem is all of life you can say that effort. Put in effort. And that's a great message actually because life requires a lot of effort and the more you put in the better your life is going to be. But a day like Christmas that like there are certain days that are there so you don't have to put in an effort. So you can relax. Now you got to put in an effort on Christmas.

But it depends on the household. If it's just you and somebody else, then you then it's a different dynamic. If you have

a supporting Yeah. If you have if you have a team to but still even if you have a team, you still should make a lap through the kitchen. Say, "Hey, is there anything going on? Is there anything I could do? Let me grab a potato." It never I'm just telling you

you have more energy than I do. You just got to be smart. Fred Nance, you want to be happy or you want to be right.

Yeah, that's a good qu. That's like the central question of my life. I still haven't resolved that one, but we'll talk about it more uh for Wednesday. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. All right. Max Kellerman, Rich Paul, this is game over. Subscribe. Spotify. Game over. That's right.

We need like a Spotify going. Can we get like a like a theme song? I think we need to come up with like a song.

Who do we get for the theme song? Can we get someone to do a theme song? I'd rather just get something that's already out there.

Just like a beat to play. I may have to call in a favor. Yes. See if Vleet knows someone.

He definitely does, but but I know some people too, you know. Yeah, I'm in the music thing.

I I can see that. Yeah. You know a few people and you have a few numbers in your phone.

I have a few numbers. Yeah. See you Wednesday. See you Wednesday. Must be 21 and over in present select states for Kansas in affiliation with the Kansas Star Casino or 18 and over and present in DC Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling Problem call 1800 gambler or visit rg-help.com. Call 1888789777 or visit ccpg.org/hat org/hat in Connecticut or visit mdgambambamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinemma.org or or call 800327-50 for 247 support in Massachusetts or call 18778-NY or text hopey in New York.

Questions about this episode

What is discussed in "Wide-Open AFC, Holiday Thoughts, and a Surprise Phone Call"?

In order: 0:00 FanDuel, Max Kellerman, NBA Cup, Rich Paul; 5:00 Trevor Lawrence; 10:00 Trevor Lawrence; 20:00 FanDuel, Rich Paul; 25:00 FanDuel, NBA Cup; 35:00 Max Kellerman, Rich Paul; 45:00 Houston Texans, Trevor Lawrence; 55:00 Max Kellerman, Rich Paul.

What is mentioned in this Game Over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul episode?

10 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Trevor Lawrence, Rich Paul, FanDuel, Max Kellerman, Cleveland Browns, New York Knicks. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "Wide-Open AFC, Holiday Thoughts, and a Surprise Phone Call"?

The episode runs 57 min; the transcript is about 11,277 words in 270 timestamped sections.

More from Game Over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul

About this transcript: the episode's spoken words as captioned on YouTube, split into timestamped sections. Reclip.Me locates every person, work and idea in the text, keeps the time it is first named, and quotes the words around it verbatim. Last updated January 24, 2026.