East Germany, West Germany, Slavic Germany? | The Proposed Sorb State of Lusatia (1945-1949)

What is discussed, and when

1. 0:00 – 3:00: World War II, Berlin, Lucatia, Soviet Union
2. 3:00 – 6:00: Lucatia, Sorbian language, Poland, Sorbs
3. 6:00 – 9:00: Lucatia, Soviet Union, Poland, Potam Conference
4. 9:00 – 12:00: Soviet Union, Poland, Lucatia, Potam Conference
5. 12:00 – 15:00: Lucatia, Soviet Union, Sorbs, Domovina
6. 15:00 – 18:00: Sorbian language, Lucatia, Domovina, Poland

Notable quotes from "East Germany, West Germany, Slavic Germany? | The Proposed Sorb State of Lusatia (1945-1949)"

• Allies invaded Germany from both the west and the east and brought the Second World War to a close. Following the end of World War II, Germany was split into various zones of…

  about World War II · at 0:12

• Germany that haven't immigrated there in more recent times. And these are called the Sorbs or sometimes the Sorbians. And they call their homeland Sorbia or in their own…

  about Sorbs · at 2:59

• Started also writing in their own language in Sorbian and some clamoring for their own state. Now the Sorbian language or I should say language family is still spoken in…

  about Sorbian language · at 3:55

• The Second World War. Of course, that war would start in 1939 with the invasion of Poland just across the border from Lucatia where the Sorbs were living. And in 1945, it would…

  about Poland · at 5:51

• Drastically too, the question was what would happen with Lucatia at this conference. Indeed, the Soviets weren't too keen on having a separate Lucatian nation, particularly…

  about Soviet Union · at 8:49

• Germans who in an overwhelming majority had voted in favor of the Nazis. Many of them had helped the Nazis during the war and so the checks had sent them packing following the…

  about Nazi · at 9:53

• Part of Germany as it was, but not quite Lucatia. They stopped at the line of the Oda and the Nisa and the Sorbs remained on the German side of that border. Now there were some…

  about Lucatia · at 12:16

• Country was made and instead the Sorbs and the Lucatian region in general simply became a part of the deair of the Deutsche Democratic Republic. So the German Democratic…

  about German Democratic Republic · at 13:08

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

• Sorbs — Person · Core topic · 2 mentions · first at 3:03
  The Sorbs are a Slavic minority in Germany, central to the discussion about Lucatia.
• Ivan Kv — Person · Referenced expert · 1 mention · first at 6:41
  Soviet general who supported the Sorbs during post-war transitions.
  Slavic brothers to the Soviets and the Poles. And initially this was something that was reciprocated by the Soviet forces. This is the Soviet general Ivan Kv and he indeed…
• Bismar — Person · Referenced historical figure · 1 mention · first at 5:06
  Mentioned in the context of German unification and Sorbian repression.
  Represents the Sorbian people. Now soon afterwards until the end of World War I, they were increasingly being repressed by the first German Empire or really actually the second…

Companies & orgs

• Soviet Union — Company · Referenced organization · 6 mentions · first at 0:24
  Played a key role in the post-war division of Germany and the fate of Lucatia.
• Nazi — Company · Referenced organization · 1 mention · first at 5:26
  Their policies significantly impacted the Sorbs and the geopolitical landscape of Europe.
• Domovina — Company · Referenced organization · 3 mentions · first at 4:40
  Central organization for Sorbian cultural and political activism.
  Lujitta. In 1912, activists for the Sorbian language and the Sorbian people came together and formed the Domovina, which basically means the homeland. It has a really cool logo…
• German Democratic Republic — Company · Referenced organization · 1 mention · first at 13:13
  East Germany, where Lucatia and the Sorbs were located post-World War II.
• Vermacht — Company · Referenced organization · 2 mentions · first at 5:46
  German armed forces during World War II, which included Sorbian recruits.
  Living. And in 1945, it would be both Soviet and Polish troops that would cross the border and battle with the German army for control of this region and eventually take it…
• Saxons — Company · Referenced organization · 1 mention · first at 3:36
  Historical rulers of the Sorbs before incorporation into Prussia.
  To the kingdom of Poland for a time during the early Middle Ages and later fell under the rule of the Saxon rulers, then being incorporated into Prussia and then into the state…

Concepts & topics

• Sorbian language — Concept · Core topic · 5 mentions · first at 3:55
  The language of the Sorbs, discussed in the context of cultural preservation.
• Lower Sorbian — Concept · Referenced concept · 3 mentions · first at 4:07
  One of the two varieties of the Sorbian language, highlighting linguistic diversity.
  Language or I should say language family is still spoken in eastern Germany today. It's spoken in two varieties, upper Sorbian and lower Sorbian, which are mutually…
• Upper Sorbian — Concept · Referenced concept · 2 mentions · first at 4:07
  One of the two varieties of the Sorbian language, highlighting linguistic diversity.
  Language or I should say language family is still spoken in eastern Germany today. It's spoken in two varieties, upper Sorbian and lower Sorbian, which are mutually…
• Catholic faith — Concept · Referenced concept · 1 mention · first at 15:38
  Part of the cultural identity of the Sorbs, affecting their post-war treatment.
  When compared with other religious groups east of the Iron Curtain. And indeed, many members of the Domovina who were communists themselves would regularly attend their church services.
• Linden tree — Concept · Referenced concept · 1 mention · first at 4:50
  Symbolic in the Domovina logo, representing the Sorbian people.
  Slightly Canadian, but it's not got anything to do with Canada. And rather than maple leaves, these are Lynden leaves from a Lynen tree, and this represents the Sorbian people.…

Places & events

• Lucatia — Place · Core topic · 11 mentions · first at 1:09
  Explored as a potential Slavic-speaking state in East Germany post-World War II.
• World War II — Event · Referenced event · 2 mentions · first at 0:14
  Central to the discussion of geopolitical changes in Europe, particularly Germany and Lucatia.
• Poland — Place · Referenced location · 7 mentions · first at 1:59
  Discussed in the context of border changes and its role in World War II.
• Potam Conference — Event · Referenced event · 2 mentions · first at 8:15
  Discussed in the context of post-war territorial decisions affecting Germany and Lucatia.
  Sorbians would be able to become another element of this tapestry even though it wasn't always a happy one. During the potam conference at the end of the second world war the…
• Berlin — Place · Referenced location · 2 mentions · first at 0:54
  Discussed in the context of post-war division and Cold War tensions.
  Germany. Of course, these two would end up in conflict in the Cold War and Berlin, the capital, would be split down the middle with a West Berlin and an East Berlin. If things…
• Sudetenland — Place · Referenced location · 2 mentions · first at 9:45
  Considered as a potential relocation area for the Sorbs post-World War II.
  Territorially or by moving the Sorbian people into Czechoslovakia would have gone ahead. Perhaps then the Sudatan land would now be called Sorbia or the Sorbian Republic…

Full transcript with timestamps

0:00 It's fair to say that Germany's borders have changed quite a lot over the last hund and something years. Not as much as others, but still a lot. Of course, one of these was in 1945 when the successful allies invaded Germany from both the west and the east and brought the Second World War to a close. Following the end of World War II, Germany was split into various zones of control. One of these was from the east where Soviet forces and their allies had pushed the Germans back and the other was from the west where the Americans, the British and Commonwealth forces as well as free European forces had also invaded Germany from the west. Eventually the zones of control by 1949 would split into two blocks. What became West Germany, about 2thirds of the country, and East Germany. Of course, these two would end up in conflict in the Cold War and Berlin, the capital, would be split down the middle with a West Berlin and an

0:58 East Berlin. If things had been slightly different, then Germany might actually have been split into three. And that is with the creation of a Slavicspeaking state in East Germany called Lucatia. To answer this, we need to go back to the past and look at the relationship between on the one hand the Germanic speaking peoples and on the other hand the Slavicspeaking peoples. As even though today Germany is seen of course Germany Germanic as a very Germanicspeaking country, many people don't know that initially a large part of what is today Germany was actually Slavic speaking. And that is because the border between the Germanic speakers and the Slavic speakers has been quite fluid throughout history with many Germanic speakers, particularly German speakers, living far more to the east throughout Eastern Europe pretty much until 1945 and the end of World War II. And actually, some still do in countries uh

1:57 live in countries like Romania, for instance, or in Poland. At the same time though, Slavic speakers lived far more to the west in history, particularly in the early Middle Ages. There's an interesting anecdote which I'm not sure how true it is, but it was told to me that in the early Middle Ages, if an old Fian speaker had climbed to the top of the Martini Torah, the tower of the St. Martini Church in Kronigan. Then from the top of that spire on a clear day, they would be able to see territory where a Slavic language was spoken and that's in the east of the Netherlands.

2:33 So suffice it to say that in history that border was quite a bit different and it changed quite a lot over time. This can still be seen if you look at the names of German cities in the east. Places like Berlin, Kitz, Leipzig, and Triston all go back to Slavic names initially, showing that these had been given by Slavic speakers who lived there. And today, there's only one group of Slavic speakers that remain in Germany that haven't immigrated there in more recent times. And these are called the Sorbs or sometimes the Sorbians. And they call their homeland Sorbia or in their own tongue, Serbia. Now, that's not that Serbia, of course, these are related words, but it's a region close to the border with Poland along the river Spra, which is where these Slavicspeaking Germans still live to this day. They're very interesting because they're basically the remnant of the Slavs who lived in Germany, who for

3:30 a while were independent. They belonged to the kingdom of Poland for a time during the early Middle Ages and later fell under the rule of the Saxon rulers, then being incorporated into Prussia and then into the state of Germany. Now by the middle of the 19th century with national romanticism which you knew I was going to bring up and the revolutions of 1848 they were becoming increasingly nationally conscious and started also writing in their own language in Sorbian and some clamoring for their own state. Now the Sorbian language or I should say language family is still spoken in eastern Germany today. It's spoken in two varieties, upper Sorbian and lower Sorbian, which are mutually intelligible but slightly different to one another. And their name for their homeland is Lucatia. Now, this is an anglicized version of a name. In their own languages, in upper Sorbian and lower Sorbian, it's something like

4:27 Wujitta. In German, it's called Laousitz. In Polish, it's called Wujitsa. And in Czech, it's called Lujitta. In 1912, activists for the Sorbian language and the Sorbian people came together and formed the Domovina, which basically means the homeland. It has a really cool logo that looks slightly Canadian, but it's not got anything to do with Canada. And rather than maple leaves, these are Lynden leaves from a Lynen tree, and this represents the Sorbian people. Now soon afterwards until the end of World War I, they were increasingly being repressed by the first German Empire or really actually the second German Empire. That should be the one after Bismar. And increasingly their names, the place names that had Slavic names were being exchanged for German ones. And there was more of a pressure on them to Germanicize, to become part of this broader German culture that was being established. This only got worse

5:26 following the takeover of the Nazis in 1933. And in 1937, the Domovvena was shut down and made an illegal organization. It also became illegal to speak the language and to carry out activism in favor of the language and the culture as these were seen as strangers, as non-German aliens inside German territory even though their men would be recruited into the Vermacht in the Second World War. Of course, that war would start in 1939 with the invasion of Poland just across the border from Lucatia where the Sorbs were living. And in 1945, it would be both Soviet and Polish troops that would cross the border and battle with the German army for control of this region and eventually take it over. Now when Soviet and Polish troops were marching through the area, they encountered Sorbian farmers with the blue, red and white colors of the national flag of Lucatia, of the Sorbian people. And they dored on their barns and farms, words in

6:28 the cerillic alphabet like friendship uh and that they were on the same side as Slavic brothers to the Soviets and the Poles. And initially this was something that was reciprocated by the Soviet forces. This is the Soviet general Ivan Kv and he indeed believed that

6:56 [clears throat] which means that minorities, smaller people living on the territory of Germany who had suffered so much under fascism deserved to be supported and many Sorbs hoped that this was the start of a new beginning. Indeed, a group of Sorbs who had fled to the Czech capital of Prague were hoping that it might be the start of a new nation or at least the start of a new chapter in their nation's history. They formed an organization called Bjisco Serbski Narod Vubber which is the Lucatian Serbian National Committee in the hope of either creating an independent nation for the Sorbs or joining together with Czechos Slovakia, another nation that had recently been liberated from Nazi control uh following the occupation of the Second World War.

7:46 And this of course this state was a mixture of various ethnic groups. The largest being the checks at around 50% and a much smaller minority particularly in the east of the country of the Slovak hence giving it its name but also containing other minorities like Poles, Ukrainians, Hungarians, Germans and Jews. But it was hoped that perhaps the Sorbians would be able to become another element of this tapestry even though it wasn't always a happy one. During the potam conference at the end of the second world war the allies including both the western allies and the soviets got together and divided up Germany. Now of course Germany was split into various zones of control later to become east and west while many parts of what had been Prussia and the parts of the Germany in the east were divided up between Poland and the Soviet Union. As part of these talks, the checks were interested in having a part of Germany

8:44 too, possibly Lucatia. While the borders of Poland and the Soviet Union shifted drastically too, the question was what would happen with Lucatia at this conference. Indeed, the Soviets weren't too keen on having a separate Lucatian nation, particularly because the Lucatians weren't particularly communist in outlook, were quite Catholic, and of course, the Soviets were very against organized religion, and indeed were quite bourgeois uneducated, which made meant it would be difficult to set up a proper workers party. Instead, many Sorbs hoped either to remain part of Germany in whatever form that would become or to become part of the Czech Republic. And indeed, the National Committee in 1947 appealed to the British at the London Foreign Minister's Conference in an attempt to become part of Czechoslovakia.

9:36 Indeed, by this time there was actually a plan involved that rather than annexing part of Germany to Czechoslovakia, the Sorbs would instead move to the Sudatan land. This being the part of Czechoslovakia that had been inhabited by ethnic Germans. Ethnic Germans who in an overwhelming majority had voted in favor of the Nazis. Many of them had helped the Nazis during the war and so the checks had sent them packing following the end of the conflict in 1945 meaning they had a large area that was now empty of people. So it was suggested that perhaps the Sorbians would be able to fill much of this empty territory and thus be in a quote unquote friendly Slavic nation. Of course there were already Slovaks and already checks represented. So what was a third blue, red and white flag wielding Slavicspeaking nation to add to that mix. However, this plan ultimately fell through as in 1948 Czechoslovakia fell

10:37 to the communists with the aid of the Soviet Union and as mentioned the Soviets weren't in favor of moving the Sorbians around. Now the Poles also had a vested interest in this region. of course it was right on their border and several uh there were also several Polish groups living inside this region. So you had both ethnic Germans, you had Sorbians who were Slavic speakers but not exactly Polish speakers and then you had actual Poles that also lived in this area. Many of them had been killed and deported in the Second World War but the Poles had an interest. During the Second World War, the Polish government in exile had actually opined about what should happen with Lucatia, thinking that perhaps it could become a part of Poland, maybe it should go to Czechoslovakia, or perhaps it could indeed become an independent nation. The problem was, of course, that it wasn't the Polish government in exile that

11:33 would become the new Polish government following the Second World War, as these were seen as nationalists by the Soviet Union who became the big power in Eastern Europe. And so they installed their own communist regime and they fell in line with Soviet wishes. In 1946, following the end of the Potam Conference, of course, Poland's borders were radically changed too and essentially shifted to the west with large parts of eastern Poland being annexed into the Soviet Union and then sort of as compensation, parts of what used to be Poland and some parts that had never really been Polish were added into Poland from the west, gulping up a part of Germany as it was, but not quite Lucatia. They stopped at the line of the Oda and the Nisa and uh the Sorbs remained on the German side of that border. Now there were some parts of Lucatia actually that fell on the other side of the river and the Sorbs just as

12:35 the Germans were sent packing by the Poles. Even though they were Slavic speakers and even though they hadn't really had much choice, they were still sent to the other side of the border. And so there was no Polish part of Lucatia that kept its Sorbian character. Now the Domovina following this point was successfully infiltrated by Sovietbacked communists and was pretty much turned into a a new operating wing of the Communist Party in East Germany. And so following the 1940s, no separate country was made and instead the Sorbs and the Lucatian region in general simply became a part of the deair of the Deutsche Democratic Republic. So the um the German Democratic Republic or East Germany as it's called. There were also some regional uh problems with creating a separate state. One of which is that many of the people living in wider Lucatia weren't Sorbs, weren't Slavic speakers, but were Germans. Another is

13:38 exemplified in this article from 1975. In lower lucatia, Germanization had had much greater success than in upper Lucatia. Moreover, some kind of rivalry between lower and upper Sorbs played its part. And here, neither party can escape blame. Even today the lower lucatian sorbs prefer to be called wen or wendish the German name for the lucatian Slavs instead of sorb or sorbian. And in 1950 the sorbs of lower lucataceia established a separate do the moina directorate for Brandenborg. The contact between the two tribes has never been very close. But here also natural topographical factors have to be taken into consideration. Now as I said this was written in 1975. So at the time before Germany had been reunified but it is true that generally there are a lot more Sorbs uh in upper Sorbia than in lower Sorbia and indeed more speakers in the upper region to the lower region and they are divided. There

14:42 isn't a a continuum. Uh these are two separate areas. This was also something that the East German government was aware of. And while the communist regimes in a similar way to what Stalin was doing in the Soviet Union were very much in favor of culturally promoting minority groups, politically they weren't to be given much power. So there was lots of folk dancing and sort of folk handiccrafts and even support for the Sorbian language. Politically they didn't really get any control. There was an effort in 1952 to move the lower Sorbian community and resettle them in an area to be contiguous with the upper Sorbian community. But when they tried this, riots broke out and it simply didn't work. So that attempt was uh stopped.

15:34 What is interesting though is that in general the Sorbs were allowed to continue practicing their Catholic faith relatively uninterrupted, particularly when compared with other religious groups east of the Iron Curtain. And indeed, many members of the Domovina who were communists themselves would regularly attend their church services. And this was almost an extended arm to the Sian community to try and fully integrate them into this communist system. Now, of course, this divide in Germany would stop in 1990 with the reunification of Germany east and west coming together. And now this area, Lucatia, even though it had been split with part going to Poland following Potam and the larger part with its Sorbian speaking minority remaining on the uh side of Germany is now a part of the German state. In 1992 as well, Czecha Slovakia split into Slovakia and the Czech Republic, also Czecha. So, it's interesting to wonder what would

16:37 have happened if a separate lucatian state had been created or if the plan to integrate it somehow either territorially or by moving the Sorbian people into Czechoslovakia would have gone ahead. Perhaps then the Sudatan land would now be called Sorbia or the Sorbian Republic alongside the Czech Republic and Slovakia. Perhaps they would have remained. Perhaps they would have integrated into Czech society. It's it's hard to tell, but it's certainly very interesting. And the Sorbs are still around today. They are still speaking their Sorbian language, and they are receiving more recognition from the German government, even if a lot more can be done. So, let me know in the comments below. had you heard about Lucatia and the possible plan? Again, I say possible, it more than likely would not have happened, but there were people agitating for it. So, I think that's an interesting video to make. In any case,

17:32 let me know. Did you know about the Sorbians? If you are Sorbian, would love to hear from you in the comments below. And if you were interested about this, then perhaps I can make another video more in depth about the Sorbian people, about the Sorbs, the Sorbian language, and maybe showcase some of it, too. So yeah, just let me know in the comments below and uh it would be great to to get your views on that in general as well. I always like to get a bit of feedback. So what did you enjoy about the video? What would you have differently uh if you could? And what kind of thing would you like to see in the future? I'm going to be trying to upload a little bit more regularly and have some exciting changes coming to the Patreon as well. So more about that in future videos. If you want to check out the Patreon, it is in the description below. And my patrons make it possible for me to make the videos. So, huge

18:21 thank you to them. Until the next time, I will see

Questions about this episode

What is discussed in "East Germany, West Germany, Slavic Germany? | The Proposed Sorb State of Lusatia (1945-1949)"?

In order: 0:00 World War II, Berlin, Lucatia, Soviet Union; 3:00 Lucatia, Sorbian language, Poland, Sorbs; 6:00 Lucatia, Soviet Union, Poland, Potam Conference; 9:00 Soviet Union, Poland, Lucatia, Potam Conference; 12:00 Lucatia, Soviet Union, Sorbs, Domovina; 15:00 Sorbian language, Lucatia, Domovina, Poland.

What is mentioned in this History With Hilbert episode?

20 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Lucatia, Sorbs, Soviet Union, Sorbian language, World War II, Nazi. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "East Germany, West Germany, Slavic Germany? | The Proposed Sorb State of Lusatia (1945-1949)"?

The episode runs 18 min; the transcript is about 2,987 words in 21 timestamped sections.

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