Reindeer Games w/ Howard Kremer (HDTGM Matinee)

Who speaks in this episode?

• Howard Kramer (Guest)

What is discussed, and when

1. 0:00 – 10:00: Reindeer Games, Howard Kramer, Seven Days in May, The French Connection
2. 10:00 – 20:00: Reindeer Games
3. 50:00 – 1:00:00: Reindeer Games
4. 1:00:00 – 1:03:02: Reindeer Games

Notable quotes from "Reindeer Games w/ Howard Kremer (HDTGM Matinee)"

• Hey guys, how are you? this is our technically this is our Christmas episode. so we are very excited to bring you man what a treat. Reindeer games the.

  about Reindeer Games · at 0:51

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

• Howard Kramer — Person · Main guest · 1 mention · first at 0:47
  Introduced as the episode’s special guest from the podcast Who Charted; participates in the discussion and jokes about the film.
  Special guest. You know him from the wildly successful, the fantastically funny Who Charted Howard Kramer. Please welcome Howard to the show. Welcome.

Books & papers

• The Iceman Cometh — Book · Referenced work · 2 mentions
  Mentioned as one of John Frankenheimer's great movies in the past.
  Yeah. Iceman Cometh, Grand Prix, Manurion Candidate, Seven Days in May.
• The French Connection — Book · Referenced work · 1 mention · first at 1:23
  Mentioned as one of John Frankenheimer's great movies in the past.
  Oh, I'm sure of it. Yeah. John Frankenheimer, just to give you an idea of what this guy directed, he directed some great movies in the past, like.
• Seven Days in May — Book · Referenced work · 1 mention · first at 1:28
  Mentioned as one of John Frankenheimer's great movies in the past.
  Oh, I'm sure of it. Yeah. John Frankenheimer, just to give you an idea of what this guy directed, he directed some great movies in the past, like French Connection, right?
• The Manchurian Candidate — Book · Referenced work · 1 mention · first at 1:28
  Mentioned as one of John Frankenheimer's great movies in the past.
  Oh, I'm sure of it. Yeah. John Frankenheimer, just to give you an idea of what this guy directed, he directed some great movies in the past, like French Connection, right?

Media & podcasts

• Reindeer Games — Media · Core topic · 6 mentions · first at 0:59
  The main movie discussed in the podcast, analyzed for its plot, characters, and production quality.

Full transcript with timestamps

0:00 Ben Affleck, boobies, cowboy costumes, and a cameo by Ashton Kutcher. We saw reindeer game, so you know what that means.

0:08 Now it's time for this. We're going to have a good time failure, not just a hater, cuz you know you wonder how did this win the mediocrity of some art. Perhaps you'll find the answer to the question, how did this get? Hello people of earth and welcome to our very special Christmas day edition of How Did This Get Made? Um, happy holidays. I am Paul Shear joined as always by Jason Manzukus.

0:37 What's happening? And June Diane Rayfield. How are you June? Good. How are you Paul?

0:41 Very good. Uh, today we have a very special guest. You know him from the wildly successful, the fantastically funny Who Charted Howard Kramer. Please welcome Howard to the show. Welcome.

0:51 Hey guys, how are you? Uh this is our technically this is our Christmas episode. Uh so we are very excited to bring you

0:59 man what a treat. Reindeer games the last John Frankenheimer movie by the way. Not a treat. Not not a treat.

1:10 This is uh a perfect Christmas movie for anyone. Did this come out around the holidays?

1:15 Oh, I'm sure of it. Yeah. Uh John Frankenheimer, just to give you an idea of what this guy directed, uh he directed some great movies in the past, like

1:23 French Connection, right? Yeah. Iceman Cometh, uh Grand Prix, uh Manurion Candidate, Seven Days in May. And it all ended with this Ben Affleck movie with Charlies Throne, Gary Cise, and uh Ashton

1:41 and Ashton Kutcher. Oh, I forgot about Ashton Koocher. Terrible. Oh, and Gary Senise's hair.

1:48 and Donald Log. Donald Log. Oh, guys, by the way, it came out February 25th. It missed the Christmas mark.

1:56 So, that means that this movie was so bad. Like, normally they dump a movie like this at Christmas time. Be like, "Oh, just suck it up. We'll get Christmas money." No, they released it two months after. This is almost in March. You release a Christmas movie.

2:10 That's appalling. This movie, it was done clearly by December. This movie sucked. This movie was awful. I hated watching this. This movie is everything that's bad about the movies that we watched to me. I was like freaking out. I was so angry at how bad the movie was.

2:29 I had I had Look, I had some issues with it. Um but uh I you know, look, I'm a fan of twists and turns and I love uh I love some sexy acting.

2:40 Um, what what I what the first thing that comes to my mind about this movie is the sex scene that is pretty like Charlie Cerrone and Ben Affleck have this like sex scene that is a little like graphic and it's in the sense of like what you're seeing like you don't normally see the part of the man that connects from the waist to the upper butt cheek. It's like a weird area that

3:05 miniature looking Yeah. You don't really WAIT A WAIT A MINUTE. Wait a minute. Yes. Because there was a shot of him. You know what I'm talking about. You're describing it where you couldn't see his legs, but you did see

3:19 sort of right above the ass and it just looked like it didn't look like a full human.

3:25 Looked minur. It was very weird. That sex scene I cuz I was I fully was like, "Oh, they're going to have sex now. ALL RIGHT." WHOA. like and and listen, I'm not going to complain because it was sexy. But then I had a real problem with and maybe I I'm just not having sex correctly. But but does anybody in the room have so much sex in a hotel room or wherever that you're on the bed, you're off the bed, you [ __ ] it on the floor, and then you fall asleep on the floor.

3:56 I just get up and like that's what they do. They [ __ ] so much that they fall asleep on the floor next to the bed. I was like, there is a bed right there. The only thing in this room is a bed.

4:05 It happened in Twilight, too. They [ __ ] so hard they fall asleep on the floor. They are They are exhausted. They are too exhausted.

4:11 There's also in this movie a lot of open-mouthed kissing. That's very disgusting. Like

4:19 it's like super wet kisses. Super wet wide kisses that are not appealing. It's like just two wide mouths going at each Well, I mean, we'll get into a spoiler section, but there is a Gary Citiz and I won't say who the woman is he's kissing who kiss that I was like, "What the [ __ ] is this?" It's just Nobody kisses like that. It's like kids who've seen their parents kiss trying to like open mouth, right? That's how we do it.

4:49 Is that Is that what is that what happened to you? I tried to French kiss my mom when I saw the love boat one time.

4:55 No. Yeah. No, she got really freaked out. I thought that was it. I thought that's how you like that's how adults do it.

5:01 Like I like I saw it on TV and I was like, "Oh, I've been like my mom gave me a kiss like go to bed one time and I was like, "Ah." Like my mom's like, "Whoa, whoa, what are you doing?" She caught me way before I got close. But uh

5:13 that's huge. Hey man, this is a pretty startling revelation. Let's get into it.

5:18 I didn't know you had this whole French kissing your mom thing going on. Yeah, man. I tried to kiss my mom like Gary Sice. Um, uh,

5:25 I gave her the full-blown sen. Also, I mean, I guess this is I mean, this is a dumb thing to like pick on, but you know, Ben Affleck and Shirley Throne, both very attractive people. I know movies are about attractive people and stuff, but I couldn't get a a read on like are these supposed to be ugly people or are they supposed to be like really attractive? really good point because a big part of the movie is that she's set up we we'll find out what her real intentions are later but she's set up as a woman who's writing letters to prisoners and she writes

5:58 she's their own and she surely is their own and so and we learn a little bit more about her that she's in this small town who's had a tough go of it

6:04 if she does to a coastal city she does know she's pretty know she's pretty super model beautiful I mean she is so stunning

6:11 but that's what the thing is he says to her why is such a good-look girl like you doing this [ __ ] Is this what you do? Remember when they've woken up from their slumber on the floor?

6:20 He says, "Is this what you do? You why you so beautiful?" And she goes, "Well, when you're as beautiful as I am, the guys that want you only want to [ __ ] you. They want to get inside. Get inside.

6:29 They don't want to know about what's they don't want to know what's inside you. They just want to get inside.

6:35 [ __ ] controll alt save." That is a good line. Save it. And Frankenheimer is in um

6:43 I'm not the guy was a line that was in the movie about 30 times. Oh yeah. So yes, basically this whole movie

6:50 I'm not the guy. Basically this whole movie is Ben Affleck is uh is uh in prison. He just steals cars. No big whoop. This is prison mate is a guy who uh who who stabs somebody who was harassing his girlfriend. Um and there is a fight that breaks out in jail. His prison partner is killed and he's sequence is 10 to 15 minutes long and is like an SNL sketch about jail.

7:16 It is so stupid. It's actually really upsetting, too. Like I I I don't know. I watched it and I was I felt sick. I felt really

7:25 What is really upsetting about it? Because the [ __ ] the cockroaches were in the

7:30 Oh, yeah. Disgusting. Yeah, that one. HE SAYS THERE ARE MONSTERS IN THE WHAT WAS ISAAC Hayes doing in this movie? I want to I want to play the part that Harold just talked about. This is a This is uh this is my favorite post scene in the movie. Monsters in the gelatin.

7:47 So, they're eating some like gelatin. What's wrong with you? Monsters. Just a ro.

7:56 Yeah, it's protein. It's good for you. Monsters in the gelatin. Calm down. There are monsters IN THE GELATIN. [ __ ] THAT

8:07 MONSTER. Look at this [ __ ] This starts Jesus. So this starts a full-on prison riot because apparently the cooks and they haven't just had one monster in the gelatin. One roach there. I guess everyone has tons of roaches in their holiday jello

8:28 and this starts a a huge prison. Do you think that it was an unusual day? Like this is a just a strange thing that happened.

8:33 How many roaches must go on there? I don't know. Did they do it to start the riot? Is that

8:38 That's what I don't Was it that elaborate of a plan? No, because at the end when we hear the ying how elaborate this plan could get cuz it it had so many moving parts. It's insane.

8:50 And he Ben Affleck at the end of the movie and says like, "How did you think this would work?" Because at any point something could have gone wrong. Because when you realize at the end of the movie what the plan has been all along, it's impossible to have been executed.

9:04 Impossible. Yeah, it just requires so much acting, so much to go right. Well, let's you know what? I I feel like maybe it will. Yes, it will probably be better and serve everybody better to understand how it plays out. So, um the monsters in gelatin happen. Uh Ben Affleck's uh roommate, his prison roommate gets killed and uh and now like Ben is all bummed and he's like, "Well, I'm getting released from jail tomorrow. My my prison partner was going to get released, too. Um he was going to go meet up with Charize Throne. maybe I'll I'll take over for him. And he decides that he's gonna uh take over the life of his killed prison partner just to get laid by this hot girl.

9:42 Yeah. Because Well, I do think he had some feelings for her just reading the letters and stuff. I don't think entirely about

9:48 He definitely did have some sort of attachment. You don't think you you don't think it was entirely about sex?

9:52 Not entirely. No, I don't. No, I don't. And that's what that's what they were counting on was that it was more than just sex. But he speaks his subtext so much in the movie that I just whatever he says he was thinking I JUST GO WITH THAT.

10:05 It's even he's sitting on the bus thinking about whether or not he should try to go after Charlan and he's like don't do it Nick don't do it. How about how about when he's in the How about when they're in the department store and she brings over some clothes to him and then she walks away and he looks at himself in the mirror in a crowded department store and he goes just get through the holidays. Rudy, just get through the holidays. Don't wreck her holidays.

10:33 Yeah, we'll tell her after. We'll tell her after. Like like like like a like a [ __ ] Superman villain like talking to himself in a mirror in a crowd IN A STORE. BY THE WAY, THIS is the only movie that I can recall that uh that employs both talking to himself in a mirror or a window and also having voice over narration, too. Cuz he there is also a voiceover nar. That's me. Like it's a lot of like it's a lot of like the camera going around. So, he's doing dual narration. Dual narration by one.

11:02 Everybody else really uncomfortable at how a skew the close-ups were. Oh, yeah. every close-up they would cut to was just like a skew and a little off.

11:12 Well, we were talking about this because claustrophobia. We we were saying before we started taping that like this, you had to take into effect when this movie like into, you know, in consideration when this movie was done. So, it was like 2000 and how we're saying that it's it's like quint people were trying to emulate Tarantino right?

11:29 Tarantino had come along and now these older guys are trying to put a little Tarantino in their game.

11:33 Yeah. And it felt like it was really like like the violence was a little bit more bloody. It was like trying to be this

11:41 cool thing. So Ben Affleck takes over the life of his prison partner and he, you know, forges this false relationship with Charize Throne. They're having a great time. They're having sex. They're falling asleep on the floor. They come home and Ben is attacked. Attacked by these burly thug dudes. I do want to talk about this. Um, so he walks in the door and he gets immediately like hit in the gut with like like a baseball bat. Goes down and at which point another guy pops out of the closet.

12:12 Yeah. Why was that guy hiding in the closet? Wait, there were three guys hide. There was one guy, there was a guy in the bathroom and there was a guy in the closet. that many people needed like there was like they again when you understand the plan of this not necessarily to have three guys to attack Ben and he recovers so easily from brutal beatings. He is brutally beaten over and over in this movie and never has a mark on him barely. He has a bloody nose in the diner. That's it.

12:42 And but I mean I I will say that he does limp around from getting those darts thrown into him. He gets two darts. He has a tortured dart scene which is also like a very Quenton Tarant like let's torture him. We'll do it darts man. Yeah, we'll do it darts. And uh he gets like two uh two darts in him and he's like like limping around darts.

13:01 Yeah, pool darts there. I mean I mean like a quarter of an inch in your body, but that's maybe right.

13:08 Uh he's like but um so basically we find out that Chariz has a bad brother. The bad brother wants him to rob a bank. Uh no casino.

13:16 Casino, sorry. casino because he worked in a casino but he didn't actually work in a casino. The guy that he was prison mates worked in a casino and then he finds out

13:26 and he keeps trying to be like when he realizes the guys want him because they think he's Nick. Then they're going to say, "Nick, help us rob the casino." He starts to say, "I'm not Nick. It's not me. I'm impersonating him." And the guy's like, "So you're impersonating a guy to [ __ ] my sister. You think that's going to get you out of this?" And then he has to be like,

13:44 but what he said was he goes, "You're you're acting like you You did all this so you could get down her chimney.

13:50 Yeah. There's a lot of Christmasy Christmasy wording. Yeah, that's right. And he does the reindeer games line, too, when he says, "I read your letters. Don't play no reindeer games with me."

14:03 You know what? I've never heard the expression reindeer games. Yeah. Used just in the song. That's it. I don't care.

14:10 Okay. So, I kept on asking Paul, I mean, I must have asked like every five minutes like, "Is reindeer games a thing?" like our reindeer games.

14:17 And what would Paul say? He said, "Yes, you actually said yes." I said, "Yeah, it's from the song, the Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer."

14:24 Well, I knew that, but I never heard this term or expression. Most people don't mess around at any time.

14:31 That's what I don't think it has any other meaning other than the song. A bunch of reindeers playing around. Like, there's no other context for it.

14:39 You guys have Wait, there aren't specific reindeer games. You guys have egg on your face because I looked today and on urban dictionary it came up. It goes reindeer games refers to any fun activities which are enjoyed only by members of a click. Um that uh which is often purposefully made obvious to anyone existing outside of said click in order to make them feel inadequate and left out.

15:06 So that would line up though. Okay. So but Ben Affleck has no click. He has no click. He's a man by himself.

15:12 Yeah. By the way, so Ben, so he's Rudolph in this scenario. Well, his name is Rudy. [screaming]

15:21 WHAT IS HAPPENING? BOOM. NAILED IT. LOOK AT THAT SYMBOLISM. NO WAY. THE JOKE'S on us.

15:30 The joke IS ON US. This movie just got interesting. That's the reveal. That's the AMAZING MOVIE. HOLY [ __ ] MY MIND JUST IMPLODED.

15:44 Are you kidding? Rudolph. And do you know what his friend's name was? Uh oh. No way. Nick.

15:53 NICK. [screaming] MAN, I I wonder if we can see what was Gary Senise's name. Let's even come

16:01 Gabriel. Gabriel. All right. So, the angel Gabriel Charlie Sar's name Ashley, but her real name was

16:06 Bliten. Um, holy [ __ ] I wonder if there that was the how we just got there was unbelievable. I'm sure the audience was like 10 minutes ago like, "Hey, assholes."

16:25 During the courtship of Ben and Charize when they're out, you know, she's buying them stuff cuz Ben kind of looks like a a villain from Back to the Future one. Like that's how he's dressed. But she goes, "I got a 50% off discount." She was so into that discount. She was crazy about it. She started laughing maniacally. She's like, "50% off."

16:46 But that's a huge DISCOUNT. THAT'S A PRETTY GOOD DISCOUNT. You're giving away the store at 50% off.

16:52 But she was like drunk on, you know, with power that she was going to go get 100 bucks off that coat.

16:57 By the way, she got that coat 50% off with her discount. That silver coat. Yeah. That's what she

17:02 That was a crazy scene where she was right after they got together and they were in the diner. She said first he didn't first he didn't say hello to her and he didn't when he got out of the prison and then he came back and so then you cut to the diner and he's like yeah I'm sorry I just got freaked out. I thought maybe you wouldn't like the way I looked and she's like yeah I mean I thought I thought the same. I thought maybe you'd like see my coat and just

17:25 she's Charliss there on and he just got out of prison for five years. She like I didn't think you'd think I was by that coat was pretty ugly and that's the only way they could ugly her up and make her look pedestrian is put her in ugly winter park cuz it was even that ugly. I mean it was a silver coat. It wasn't like

17:41 they tried like they they give her like a couple things like she wears a baseball cap and sunglasses. Like that's how they ugly her. She had like a winter hat on and then in the diner the winter hat is off and her hair is perfectly styled though. Um, can we talk about the second diner scene where he eats pecan pie?

17:56 Oh yeah. Oh, that was I found that disgusting. I found the choice he made in eating that pecan pie to eat it as if he was like a starving person who'd never eaten food but like an animal consuming pie or or I I was like is this a sexual thing? like what's going on with why he's eating this pie.

18:16 He started chew he started chewing up the scenery literally like he was just going after that pie. It was such a weird uh shift in tone because up until then it's all kind of sinister and then all of a sudden he starts saying, "YOU KNOW WHAT? I WANT SOME HOT CHOCOLATE. I WANT SOME goddamn hot chocolate. Some [ __ ] peac here's the funny thing about that too is like by the time that moment happens, he has been out of jail. He has had sex. He had eaten with Charlies. Like they have like bought a Christmas tree together.

18:45 It's like a lot of cookies together. Like I mean I feel Yeah. They got cookies.

18:49 Oh, that was a great lie. When the guy goes, "This guy's got a shitload of cookies." A shitload of cookies.

18:55 Why did they buy so many cookies? Who [ __ ] knows? This movie is dumb. This movie is gross. There's just a lot of grossness to this movie.

19:02 Why did he But why was he eating it like it was his last meal when he clearly could have had that pecan pie chocolate hot chocolate? He got plenty of time to get that right anyway. But

19:11 well, that was supposed to be his first meal out of prison. But he but he his first meal out of prison was Charize, right?

19:17 Oh [ __ ] Can we just play that? I just wanted just to for you guys to hear the This is the only other clip we have. Here we go.

19:25 Get him up here. NO. NO. [ __ ] THAT. Nick doesn't do anything until Nick gets something for Nick. You got it. I want some hot chocolate. You want to hear about some job of mine? I want to see some goddamn hot chocolate

19:43 and some pecan [ __ ] pie. Is he doing Bernie Mack? Is he doing a Bernie Mack? I feel like that was a cra I mean, you're right. That's where the movie go at that point. The movie is like, "All right, now we're on this whole different track. And it's like a fun romp now

19:57 because basically what we have not told you is uh Gary Cise is Chariz's brother and he's a robber or a wannabe robber and they are using Ben's knowledge but not really his knowledge cuz his his former the person he's impersonating's knowledge on how to rob a casino. So he's being pulled into a casino. He is just a car guy. He just steals cars. So now he's told them numerous times, guys, listen. I'm not this guy. They refuse to listen to that. They keep on going, "No, no, you're the guy. You're the guy." And and the

20:30 Chariss says to him, she's like, "I was gonna tell you about this after new after New Year's." Like the two of them, Charize and Ben's characters are so strangely respectful of the holiday.

20:42 Yeah. I didn't want to ruin your Christmas by telling you my sociopath brother wants you to do a casino heist. He he throws his uh driver's license in the toilet and then it's real weird as after he flushes the toilet, he pats the toilet twice. Like, good toilet. You You did what I wanted YOU TO DO. I OH MY GOD.

21:07 So stupid. AND BY THE WAY, I DIDN'T HAVE to do that. By the way, what a long-term con on his part. He's like, "I'm going to flush my license in the toilet so I have no proof of identification for the rest of my life." I mean, well, he's like, "I got to get laid. I got to get laid. I got to flush."

21:25 I understood him at that point. Hitting that felt like you knew him. Yeah. I I felt like I got him at that point cuz he both was working towards getting laid and not getting found out. And, you know, you wanted to get tell the toilet, "Good job. Thank Thanks, bro." Hey, look. I always pat the toilet just to make sure.

21:43 Good job. You ain't that good. You You did a good job. Should we discuss the um when they go to scout the casino and they get him a disguise?

21:53 Absolutely. Yes. So, they need to scout this casino and they figure the best way to dress him up. By the way, this is the most obvious crew of robbers, right? Cuz even when they go get that pecan pie, it's like basically he is sitting amongst the most thuggiest of thugs. It's like Danny Tjo, Clarence Williams, Donald Log, Gary Snee, and they're all dressed like die hard villains. Like, yeah. And they don't look like if you saw me. Oh, yeah. I saw a [ __ ] bunch of robbers in here. Yeah. They all were sitting around this table with a guy with a bloody nose.

22:26 And a supermodel wearing sunglasses. They were at the robbers table. Yeah, we we had to actually put three tables together to get them all at that robber table.

22:34 How many? There's six of them. Put them at the robbers's table. Um I feel like this is that era of movie making when it literally is like, okay, so we'll get a couple of good like character actors to play the bad guys and then we just need one of the angry Stephen Wolf guys. So either Malovich or Senise. Like Senise is basically doing a Malovich impression for the entirety of this movie. It's he is he's not threatening at all. He's just acting threatening. He is like he's slimmer and slighter and shorter than every single person in the movie. He is not at all scary.

23:08 Well, how about when he throws those darts at him and he reveals and he's he's hitting darts perfectly around Ben's head like like the kind of the way that they did it like on the Tonight Show like the tomahawk thing and and uh and then he goes, "Hey, I wasn't meaning to miss you." I've been trying to hit you.

23:24 Yeah, I've been trying to hit you, so I'm just bad at this. But yeah, he's not an intimidating.

23:30 No, cuz Ben Affleck cracks wise so many times when he should be threatened. Like he's about to be smashed in the face, but he just is flipping and then Well, the other thing that I can't figure out is like they are murderers, but they've never committed a crime before. And they he is just a truck driver.

23:48 Are they murderers? I guess they do kill people. They kill people without remorse. Well, but not but not before them. Well, she says, I don't know, maybe she's lying, cuz here's the the spoiler alert, is that she's playing a bunch of reindeer.

24:02 Yeah. Is that Charliss Theron is not just double crossing Ben Affleck. She because she is not Gary Senise's sister. She is Gary Cine's girlfriend,

24:13 right? Which Ben Affleck finds out. But guess what? Another [ __ ] twist. Double double cross. Nick, the prisoner who is Ben Affleck's best friend in prison is not dead. He's alive. Charlie Theron is his girlfriend. And the whole thing has been a con on Ben Affleck.

24:34 Yes. So they were and Gary Cenise everybody. They were counting on they were there's a whole scene of dialogue at the end of the movie where this actor has to come out. He hasn't been seen in like an hour and a half and has to explain the entirety of the movie to us. It was awful. Well, but by the way, uh how about the fact that that now makes me question, did she actually have the 50% discount?

25:00 Did she actually did she really work in that store? We don't know. She had the card. I don't know. This con goes deep.

25:07 If anyone in the audience knows cuz 50% sounds like an enormous discount to even people who work in the corporate office don't get paid. I worked like she's put in some years. She said, by the way, cuz what she could do is just buy stuff and then sell it on her own and make some serious cash. I mean, crazy discount.

25:27 Maybe she sold those other guys their clothes, their rough god or their Santa. You think she got the Santa suits from that

25:34 from the clothing store? From that clothing store. Oh, no. I doubt it. So, they go to case the joint and they decide to And by the way, so the entire time of the movie, Ben,

25:44 I hope I didn't spoil the end too early in the podcast. I don't think you did. It's too hard to follow that any

25:48 Well, now we can now we can kind of really uncover it from all angles because let's unpack this

25:52 cuz uh cuz basically Ben is telling Gary Senise the entire time, I'm not this guy. I'm not this guy. Now, by the plan of this movie, Gary Senise knows that he's not this guy, right?

26:05 No. Oh, I thought Gary Senise is also being conned. Yeah. So Gary does not know that he's not that Gary Senise has no way of knowing that a guy named Rudy was reading those letters.

26:19 Yeah, Gary Senise just knows that he's Nick. Gary Senise want needs to believe he's Nick. Even though everything falls going against him, even when at the point in the movie where he realizes this isn't Nick, he still says, "Where's the pow-wow safe?" which is something that he invented.

26:41 Yes. Right. Well, no. Well, now you I think you find out later that that it was mentioned in the letters.

26:47 It was mentioned in the letters. But there is a there's a part where Gary Sus tried to run Ben Affleck over with the car and the snow and then she reaches over to pull the wheel.

26:59 But why would they do any of that if it doesn't make sense when you go back over?

27:04 I think she's trying to she's trying to sell the scam. She knew if if I believe that if if Nick had not killed Gary Senise, then I'm sorry. If Rudy had not killed Gary Cine,

27:18 but Rudy didn't kill Gary Cenise. Charize kills Gary Senise. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Charize kills Gary Senise when it all come next to the truck at the end.

27:27 Yeah. She shoots Gary in the head. Then Right. Right. Right. I'm sorry. Right. So, but she but he had no way of knowing though.

27:38 You guys wait. Hey guys, let her figure this out. Let her figure this out. I'm really caught up in a reindeer game right now.

27:45 I'm really lost. Unravel it. Unravel it. Even the screenwriters didn't bother to figure this out.

27:51 So, your question is, did Gary Senise know that Rudy was not Nick? No. That's what you guys are saying. I'm saying no to that.

28:02 You're saying I'm saying that Gary believed that Nick was Nick. He believed. Yes. Yes, we are.

28:09 That's what we're all saying. Okay. So, we're all saying that. All right. Okay.

28:12 Sorry. All right. But now that was amazing. Sorry, you guys. I got really lost.

28:20 Uh, so still better than the movie hearing you describe. All right. So, I'm still trying to figure out the parental logic of Sleepaway Camp.

28:30 It has been broken down online. You can check out our message board. The movie or

28:34 the movie. Um, all right. So, let's let's get So, they go to case this casino. They decide to dress Ben up in a

28:43 like a c like a cowboy like a comical cowboy outfit like like almost like a fogghorn leg horn had formal wear. This would be what he would be wearing. Like uh

28:53 like when uh when uh um Oh, [ __ ] Sorry. I just killed your whole body. No, don't worry. Now

29:00 when Nor McDonald plays but Bert Reynolds. Yes, that's exactly what he looks like.

29:05 That is perfect. Big old cowboy hat, like crazy mustache, bolo tight. By the way, this casino is so low rent.

29:12 Oh god, it's terrible, man. What is Dennis Fina doing? I mean, poor Dennis Fina. He he literally keeps having he runs the casino and he keeps having the line like, "I shouldn't have left Vegas, you know, cuz he's he's working in this po dunk." He basically he says to these he's having a he's having a um a meeting with these two Native American men. It's a Tomahawk casino. And he goes, "Hey, you guys need to do some sort of rain dance and get it to stop snowing so I can do some business." And then the guys leave angered and he's, "Hey guys, come back.

29:46 We got prime rib at the thing." Like it was like, "Wait, wait, wait. You just insulted these people, their religion, everything." And you're like, "Come on. Hey,

29:54 come on guys. shouldn't have left Vegas. And I felt like every time he was saying that, he was like, I shouldn't be in this movie.

30:00 I feel like everyone did this movie. I mean, Chariss Therone publicly came out and said, "This is a very, very bad movie. This is the worst of my movies. I only did it cuz John Frankenheimer did it and I was kidding myself to do it." Uh, so I I feel like everyone probably got off on that. Like they're like, "Oh, well, John Frankenheimer's directing."

30:19 I agree with that. Like if you told me John Frankenheimer was directing a movie in that era, I would have been like, "Awesome. I'm into that.

30:25 Right. The uh the only person who was not able to cut it was Vin Diesel, who was originally cast in an unspecified role,

30:33 but he made so many demands regarding his character that the director, John Frankenheimer, fired him before production started.

30:39 I bet you it was the Donald Log character. That's my gut. Yeah. Or maybe like a combination of those guys. They were all Vin Diesel. They couldn't get Vin Diesel, so they like broke.

30:49 They had to split it up. Yeah, I don't want to get lost in a twist again, but so

30:56 [ __ ] it's happening again. But if Nick, so if original Nick or original OG Nick,

31:01 okay, knew that Rudy, he was must have been prepping Rudy in prison this whole time and reading those letters and all that stuff,

31:07 right? Why wouldn't he tell him more information about that casino? Like what? Like that it had like just more info? It seemed like it seemed like Rudy Nick when put on the only thing he really knew was the pow-wow save. He didn't know anything else about the casino.

31:27 Good point. There's a good point. It was an unanswered point. To what end? Well, to me, the whole movie The whole movie all he needs all he needs is for them to rob the casino.

31:38 Yeah, but he's prepping he's prepping Rudy to know how to do that. But he's not because basically at the end when Ben says to Gary S, he's like, "Wait a second. if I died at any point, could you still have done this? And Gary says he's like, "Yeah,

31:52 we could have." So he said, he doesn't say it to Gary, he says it to Living Nick.

31:56 Oh, yeah. Right here. He says to Living Nick, he's like, "This is so crazy. There's so many moving parts to this. It could have fallen apart in any way." And he was like, "Yeah, it could have fallen apart." Oh, he's like, "How did you know I would go with her? What if I had just gone on the gotten on the bus and left?" And he's like, "If you had, she would have just convinced Gary Senise to do it without you right?

32:13 Like they would have done it anyway." So you didn't even really need the whole protagonist of the movie to be in it. No, by the way.

32:20 And by the way, I would also argue this is one of the first movies where none of the characters are likable. Like Ben, I mean, he's not a likable guy cuz he goes from being like a very put upon like he's like, "Yeah, I just, you know, I robbed cars. I got the bum deal." And then he's like a dick and he's not like he's not he then take, you know, he assumes the life of somebody else. He's feeding toilets.

32:41 Raw dogging Charlies Theon. While she thinks he's some other guy. They're all evil people. None of them is redeeming.

32:47 Not really. Jason, what? She doesn't really think he's an Oh, right, right, right.

32:52 She But he's a bad person cuz he thinks absolutely. But let's talk about OG. Nick really is very comfortable farming his girlfriend out to get plowed by everybody.

33:06 Different men. That is what he's really into. Oh, maybe that just to see that just to set up his girlfriend game.

33:13 All right. So, they send him in Bert Reynolds style to this casino and um and now meanwhile you think, okay, well, this is a chance for Ben to case the casino. No, no, no. All the thug guys also come in fully thugged out. They're not in any sort of costumes. Again, they look like robbers and thugs. They're wearing their one outfits that they have. And then, uh what do they see? Well, oh, he sees this guy across the the casino. Kind of looks like him. He's got a weird mustache and a goatee, too. Oh, who is it? Ashton Kutcher.

33:43 What? Ashton Kutcher. And does Ashton Koocher have any lines in this movie? He's got two lines in the bathroom.

33:51 Yeah. Which in the director's cut are edited out. Really? In the director? The director's cut they edit out. I only can imagine that Ashton Kutcher owed something to the Weinstein Company and they're like, "You have to be in this movie." And he was like, "Okay, I'll do it."

34:05 Is he a star in 2000? Yeah, that 70s show has been on a TV star cuz I was like maybe that's not a that's not a part that you take.

34:16 I don't think how huge could he have been by then. Not that big. I don't I'm going to look right now.

34:21 I'm guessing he wasn't that big by I just assumed this was like one of his early roles, you know.

34:26 Really? I thought it was like Herman in the Blues Brothers. Oh, all right. Cuz I I thought it was much more That was a good pull. I I I thought it was much more like look at this. Let's look at who this character is.

34:37 I don't think he was doing movies then. Okay, we'll see. I'm going to tell you right now. I'm looking as I need to be. Okay. In 2000, he had already done Dude Wears My Car.

34:46 No. Yep. And he was uh he was on Just Shoot Me. So, and then uh Yeah. So, he I mean he had done he was an actor.

34:54 The star of Dude Wears My Car. Yeah. Oh, so this makes no sense. Yeah. Did that come out in 2000 or shot in 2000?

35:01 It came out in 2000. So I guess you know so he was he was the lead in the movie. So at that point he also said oh I'll take this oneline part.

35:09 I mean he was you know he was a star. That came out in Feb. That probably came out in the summer.

35:13 All right. Yeah. That and maybe this maybe this had been shot years earlier. Maybe this sat around. Who knows?

35:20 All right. So you guys are predicting So you guys are predicting that this is something that he that he didn't. All right. So

35:26 I mean I'll we can just ask Cooch. You know we'll get Cooch on the phone. We can we can we can dial up the kuchf

35:32 because by the way that 70s show started in 1998. So he had been on that 70s show for a couple of years.

35:38 Okay. Then then he should not be in a role that has no li that has less than five lines.

35:43 But it's a Frankenheimer. That's probably how they got him. Yeah. He's like, "You want to come in and do a Frank?" So basically Ben just goes, "Take this coat. Here's a hundred bucks." And he's like, "All right." And he puts it on and then he just runs around and he goes, "Uh, he gave me $100." That's basically all of uh the Kooch's lines. and and teenage girls went crazy. Like in my mind, I feel like the wine scenes were like, "This kid's hot. Girls love him. Let's put him in this Frankenheimer movie. This movie will make a lot of money." Like,

36:08 here's my bigger question. In the scene after this, when Charize and Ben run away into like a bank of snow and they try to escape crazy Gary Senise, they fall Chariz.

36:29 It's amazing. And then Ben Affleck jumps in after her. Now they swim away from the hole that they fell into. Well, that happens to people when they fall through the ice is that they cannot find the hole they fell through. That is true.

36:41 The current might drag them or they can't see. Is there a big Okay. Because All right. No, I'm glad to hear this cuz it looked so bright and it looked from where we were standing with them, the shot we were on with them, that you could see that other hole so clearly.

36:56 Yeah, that's a huge thing. That is a real I remember this from as a kid growing up. as a kid growing up like playing hockey on frozen pond like ponds and lakes.

37:05 But also when you were growing up like clowns would chase you onto that ice you

37:10 guys. The clowns. Let's not [ __ ] forget the clowns. Um I got to ask someone. Actually you has been validated on one of the many episodes of a lot of people came to your defense.

37:17 Oh really? Oh good. Oh thank god. All right. Thank you people. Um, but I remember like there was like there was there was the whole threat was that you would fall through the ice and that you would not be because of how when you you get so disoriented that it's very easy to get back up and get you're stuck there and you don't know where the hole is that you came out of. So kids would die underwater not because they couldn't find that little hole they came through.

37:41 Oh wow. All right. So glad to know this. So this part of the movie is 100% factual. Ready to go. Luckily, they did not lose their machine gun and they're able to shoot through that uh ice.

37:51 Yeah. Is that factual? That's what I was wondering. Would a would a machine would a a shotgun fire underwater? I don't know.

37:57 Yeah, it was a it was a fullon machine gun. So, it was it wasn't even like a pump action. It was like like they like they were able to get through there.

38:06 One of the most heartbreaking moments is right after though when this little man who this little local yok

38:12 fishing on the ice fishing kind of like a grumpy old man. He was so in that actor. He I thought he was one of the best actors in the movie. He says so sincerely, "Is everything okay, you guys?" And then realizes that he's dealing with like

38:25 murderous. Yeah. Sociopath carrying guns. Yeah, sure. He starts to run away. And do you think he died in that house?

38:32 Okay. Oh, no. He definitely died CUZ IT'S ON THE NEWSCAST. IT'S the newscast later. They go into a room and the newscast in the background is saying the strange death of a local man on the river. This is still unsolved, but the police suspect foul play.

38:47 Oh, do they suspect foul play? Is that because his little ice house was shot up by a machine gun?

38:54 And by the way, suspect foul play. This guy must have been some serious [ __ ] But these guys who are not robbers cuz they've never robbed anything before. They're just truck drivers of the dream um to rob

39:04 who live out of the who live out of their truck. They live out of a truck that is like the Nightrider truck. like it's like full decked out like Motor City truck. Um yeah, he

39:17 but uh Oh my gosh, there's uh this movie sucked. I got so angry. So the scene where Gary Senise is throwing Darth Ben Affleck. Are they in like the wreck room of that hotel?

39:30 Aren't they in the truck? All I know is No, they're not in the truck. They're in the truck. No, no, no. Jason, they're not in the truck cuz there's um pinball machine.

39:37 Pinball machines. They're in the truck. That's No, it's like a shitty motel with like cinder block walls. Yeah, but then they have

39:45 all the rooms have cinder block walls. Yeah. By the way, you guys will be happy to know that.

39:48 I'm pretty sure that took place in the truck. Uh, by the way, wherever it took place, there was a big fog machine. Everywhere in that hotel was foggy. It was like it was everything was defrosting. By the way, you'll be happy to know that Ron Perkins, the actor who was killed in the uh in the Ice House, is alive and kicking. He's he was just on the mentalist and uh he was on VEP and he does he had a very big part on House MD. So check out

40:10 part um he is uh he is Dr. Ron Simpson. Oh um but he he's in a few of John Frankenheimer's movies. Uh but yeah, that everything in that hotel looked like uh that like everything was steamy at all times. But my favorite line in the hotel um was Ben escapes from the hotel. Oh my god.

40:29 In a feudal escape plan cuz he doesn't really get anywhere when he escapes. And he comes back and he's trying to break back into his hotel room and he's like, "Ah, I can hotwire cars. I can hotwire hotel." That's what he says. I can hotwire cars. And all he's doing he has somehow found a knife. How did he get a hold of that knife? I don't know. All he's doing to hotwire the door handle is touching the knife to the door like to the electronic component of the door handle just like tap tap tap tap tap tap tap tap tap green light I'm in it may it was he there was no wires there was no there was nothing it was just touching a metal

41:06 that's how it worked metal to metal Jason when he does escape that hotel for that feudal escape plan which I don't even understand why he escaped um

41:14 yeah he yeah And then he tries to get back in. Yeah. It's like you were you were loose. Like keep running.

41:20 Just keep on running. And by the way, everybody like those four robbers are everywhere in that hotel. Every every which way that he goes, there's another one of the bad guys like, "Hey, I'm down by the vending machine. Hey, I'm out reading my magazine. Hey, I'm over here in the pool." Like they are all over the place.

41:35 Yeah. One guy finds leftovers outside someone. Hey, it's food. These are disgusting robbers. That's a disgusting trait to look through people's used food and eat it. Um,

41:45 that just shows you though how desperate these guys are. But Ben got the one up on them because he was able to order a lot of pay-per-view when these robbers did not want to pay for their pay-per-view.

41:57 Cleared out the mini bar, too. Yeah. Another egregious tone shift where you're scared for this guy's life and then all of a sudden he's just [ __ ] around and and like the toothless villains.

42:07 It was just $1,200. It was a $1,200 bill. No, it was a huge bill. huge like I printed out an old computer printer like you charge us all this money on pay-per-view.

42:20 Yeah. Like one punch that's for the pay-per-view. Another punch that's for the mini bar. It was so like Abbott and Costello.

42:29 Oh my god. And then uh so now we get to the big the big heist. Things are happening. It's exciting. They're finally going to rob this place. And uh man alive to get you to this final scene. Everything goes haywire. They all dress as by the way. The big reveal is that they're going to rob the casino dressed as Santa's.

42:49 It's Christmas Eve cuz it's Christmas Eve. And then they like reveal the suits like we got a plan, man. And they open up a closet full of like neatly hung Santa suits

42:58 in the truck. In the truck. Right. And if you double back, the whole reason the reason he dress what he's No guys.

43:07 We'll find out. The reason they that uh they dressed him as a cowboy earlier is because they said if you go in there regular now, they'll recognize you when the heist goes down.

43:17 Yes. And then they No, no, no. They were going to recognize him from when he used to work there

43:20 as Nick. They were like, "If you walk in now, they're going to recognize you as Nick." So he goes, "That's why I need a disguise." And then they were like, "It's either cowboy or ballerina." By the way, why would it be such a big deal if Nick came in and just he old place he worked there? He wasn't fired for stealing. He could have just, "Hey, I'm here to visit. What's up?"

43:38 Yeah. Yeah. I'm the guy with the problem stealing cars. And it doesn't matter. Anyway, he goes in as the cowboy. Dennis Fina, who runs the mu the museum, the casino, says, "Hey, how'd you how'd you hear about us? How'd you hear about the casino?" And he's just like, "Whatever, whatever." And then the bad guys are like, "You were talking to the guy. Did you tip him off?" Like, a huge part of the movie was contingent on them thinking that he had said something to Dennis Fina, which wasn't true at all. The whole movie is based on lies that no one has enough information like

44:08 and and are low stakes. Very low stakes lies. Very low stakes. Considering they didn't need Ben Affleck at all.

44:15 Yes. And and by the way, the plan is walk in and shoot the place up. Guess who you don't need for that? Ben Affleck.

44:24 By the way, can I just bring out the larger flaw of this plan? The casino is not making any money. It is losing money. It is a not profitable casino. Like we're going to rob it on Christmas Eve. A dead night by the way. Dead. So they're

44:41 usually it's like usually heist movies are like on this particular night there happens to be three times as much money in the vaults because of Betty blah blah like Oceans 11 or whatever. This fight night there is something.

44:51 This literally would be the night when there is the least amount of money in the least successful casino.

44:57 The shittiest casino on the shittiest night of the year. We are standing to make hundreds of dollars.

45:03 It was, but yet when they get in the back room, tons of money. I guess casinos just keep it there just in case they have a rush.

45:11 Just wrapped up in perfect like in perfectly stacked bills. Yeah. I also love that when they arrive at the casino, they cut to Dennis Fino who's just watching the security cams. Yeah. Just watching

45:21 and he's going that Santa's kicking your security guy's ass. Security guy's ass.

45:26 Yes. Danza does not freak out when their full-on fight where they flip tables over happens on the main floor of his casino.

45:32 He's like, "I freaked out on my last movie. I don't need to do it again." Hey guys, just put in Midnight Run. You'll see what I can do. Anyway uh but um but then they somehow Ben needs a weapon. They give him a weapon that that has liquor in it. Uh which is

45:48 a squirt gun. They give him a squirt gun and then they pass around a bottle of rum later which he puts in the squirt gun.

45:54 Yeah. So he's like, that's a comic relief moment. Oh, throughout the whole time, he can give himself a little squirt of rum. But it'll come in handy. Yeah.

46:01 Comes in really handy because when Ben is uh tied up against the wall, when he's when he is stuck in this one moment, he's going to get killed. The guy's like, "I'm going to kill you. But first,

46:10 I'm going to light a smoke." Now, I didn't see this twist coming. I didn't think the squirt gun. I did not think the squirt I mean, in the moment I did, but I didn't see it leading up. The guy's like, "Before I'm gonna kill you, let me take out my cigarette and my Zippo lighter." And he goes to light a cigarette. But Ben, very quick on the draw, shoots some quick rum at him and lights this guy on fire in the most Hollywood I'm on fire. Like special effects are amazing. Like it's like this guy goes up in flames like you like like fire starts. Three squirts from his squirt gun engulfves the man in like in like like insane flame. We

46:52 By the way, when you say squirt, we should be clear. It's like such a tiny small stream. There's no

46:59 Yeah, we should work that out. Like see what would really happen if someone was small.

47:03 We should mythbuster this. Yeah, mythbuster it. You think we should mythbuster this? All right. All right. I like that.

47:09 Get my beret. Somebody I've got the beard. You get the beret. Let's go. I bet you someone online, one of our fans wants to make a YouTube video that I don't think you'll light yourself on. I don't think you'll light yourself on fire.

47:20 All you'll do is put out the cigarette. You'll just put out the cigarette. Also, I will say that in this heist, there are more pointlank misses of any any movie ever cuz there's only like six characters, so they can't kill each other that much. They have to just miss each other nonstop for the entire ending. And then they get a little bit and I'm not even I like this even goes to show you it's not even a fun movie cuz you don't even remember how any of these guys die. Like I don't remember how Treyjo dies. I don't remember how

47:47 you know like everybody gets shot. Well, the problem is that everybody dies in Santa suits. So you can't tell who's being killed.

47:54 Yes. That is so at the end of the movie everybody's indistinguishable from each other except for Ben Affleck. And so you have a lot of trouble figuring out who's who. Like like the guys in when they open up the vault room, one of the sansas gets shot with a shotgun and flies backwards and dies. I'm not sure who that was. Maybe Danny Tjo or Donald Log. Not sure.

48:14 You don't know. And that's what it's like. You You're not tied to any of these deaths because I don't [ __ ] get it. Like who was that? Why did that just happen?

48:21 So if you any movies where the achievement is that you can't tell the difference between Danny Tjo and Donald Log, that's pretty good accomplishment. Uh

48:31 well, but that's a big part of Well, I thought it was going to be a huge part of the ending when Ben Affleck said when when they say to Ben Affleck that five Santaas came into the casino.

48:41 Yeah. So, five Santaas need to be dead, right? But there weren't five Santaas dead there.

48:48 No. Well, what you think what I thought was going to happen was that Ben Affleck was that Ben Affleck was going to once once Nick once OG Nick got killed

48:58 going to put the Santa suit on. Ben Affleck should have put his Santa suit on OG Nick and killed him because then Ben Affleck can walk away unscathed, right?

49:06 Wait, but by the way, they keep on saying that they blow but at the end of the movie they blow up everybody anyway. They're all on fire. They don't need to put the Santa suits on anyone. They're all burnt to a crisp.

49:16 Listen, I don't disagree. There's like And then am I to believe that the end at the end of this movie, he gives all of the money away in people's mailboxes and then goes to his own family's dinner with showed him when they like the movie could have been over so way before that. But they took the time to show you him going to his holiday to watch the ball game with his dad. That was it. Like his whole dream.

49:41 He's still bloodied and in the Santa suit. He's in a bloody Santa suit and he's at home at the head of his kitchen table. This convict

49:48 with a big smile on his face. And what his last line is, I know what the holidays mean now. like he knows

49:57 like you pointed out some mailboxes got two um yeah two chunks of jail like he would take all that money and he would like sometimes he would put like one stack of bills and sometimes two so people should know he walks away with the stolen money right and now in my mind I'm like hey return that money to the casino because that those pe that tribe was struggling you know return that money

50:20 and a lot of casino workers were killed but instead instead he robbed Robin Hoods it and he puts it in just people's mailboxes. He walks down the street.

50:31 They finally make him likable in the last scene. But that wasn't likable. What he should have done, he should have started a fund for all of the families of the casino workers who were killed in that shootout.

50:41 He should have started taking care of them. I think he should have just either left the money there for the and called the police to the scene of the

50:51 Then it's evidence, Jason. They can't do anything with it. Doesn't it get won't evidence get returned to the casino?

50:56 Guys, I can't. Did you get done with the money? He should have made those design changes that he was trying to convince them took place in the casino.

51:05 He should take over the casino. Um, can I Did anyone get catch the real twist ending of the movie?

51:12 So, he gets home to his parents house and the entire thing was orchestrated by his dad to get him home for Christmas. So his dad set up his prison roommate to fake his It was a longterm family con to get him home for Christmas. That's all it was. It's it's a movie about family. Well played Rudolph's dad.

51:36 Rudolph's dad whose name is Santa. And no, the whole idea, the reason why he was called Nick was because that was the whole theme of the movie. Do you believe Do you believe it's Nick? Do you believe in Staint Nick? Yeah.

51:50 Uh, hey, can we talk about uh he dispatches uh Charliss Theo and she's on the hood of the car and she goes over the cliff.

51:58 Yes. And then now it's time to get rid of the real villain, her brother. And it's just the same exact thing. Disney just sends them over the cliff.

52:09 Same two deaths right in a row. Ah, [ __ ] it. We don't care. We just do it again. Let's do it. Exactly.

52:15 Oh, well, but no, the difference is the first thing she went over the cliff on the hood of a car. Yeah.

52:19 And then the next thing it's an 18 wheeler that goes over the car. So it is basically completely different.

52:25 So shame on you. You need a different license to push those up. I did like his one lines.

52:32 You have to be able to double clutch. Wait, what did he go? What did his Oh man, I'm going to mess up the line. But I did like it. He's like one first rule, never trust. Never uh never put a car thief behind the wheel.

52:45 Yeah, that was it. and they was able to just reverse into the brother or reverse into OG Nick get him and drive her off the cliff. Oh, it was an antilimactic ending. Just seeing Cliff fall off a thing exploding. It's like, "All right."

53:00 Yeah. Um the uh is there any Well, what you obviously had an opinion about this movie, but it's time to hear some second opinions. These are reviews cold from Amazon.com. Five star reviews. Um, this is five star

53:18 five star reviews. So here you can agree or disagree with this. But critics or just pedestrians?

53:24 These are pedestrians. These are what what America is thinking. Josh Miller says reindeer games works on so many levels as an action film. It's damn near flawless. In fact, I think it is flawless except for the lame brain twist that was going to thrown in at the end, but that didn't ruin it. So, I stick to my five stars. I'm going to have to start trusting Elmore Leonard a lot more because his mini review on the cover sums up everything well. Reindeer Games rocks.

53:55 Whoa. Really? Jesus. He's more accurate than Stephen King has been about certain movies. So, that's a guy who's trusting many author mini reviews on a DVD box cover.

54:07 That's what makes you start liking all More Leonard. Well, he's a uh this one is a good one, too. Amando Mesa writes, "Even viewers who are not familiar with the previous works of Affleck, Thoron, Arsen will surely change any misconceptions about their underrated acting abilities because I can't figure out how Thoron and Affleck turn on the waterworks. Is it method acting or real emotions? It's incredibly believable." Do they even cry in there?

54:36 I don't remember them crying. Gary Senise can play either good or bad flawlessly. If he's a good character, he's intense. If he's a bad one, he's super intense.

54:48 He turns it up. The only drawback, this is it. The only drawback, this is a fivestar review, is that this is the kind of movie where the twists in the story will be fresh in your mind for the next 3 days, and then afterwards, you're going to want to analyze the whole thing and remember it afterwards. So, that is the drawback. thinking is the drawback on this movie, right? Uh and then uh and this one I just I pulled these two I don't um this one is this one I wouldn't normally read, but it's so it's a fivestar review and I think it's funny.

55:20 Kilmari writes, "Senise is terrific as the deranged wannabe thief once he get past his hideous reptilian looks." How many how many how many how many camera lenses did they go through? Wait, what is the presumption there that his looks are so bad that he would break camera lens?

55:45 Many, but he is terrific. He is terrific. Is a fivestar review. Um, his reptilian reptilian looks.

55:54 He does look a little like a character like from V. Um, and then somebody else just compares uh Alec to uh go. A Fleck is emerging as a star who possesses a commanding screen presence only afforded by older, more distinguished actors such as Shan Connory and Ed Harris. Throne proves to be the theatrical equal of Marina Drich. So those are those are some fivestar reviews. Is there anything that we missed? anything that that anyone had written down that we didn't talk about

56:23 the nobody else may buy into this one but I thought that Nick the uh OG Nick yes

56:30 he remind me of Todd Barry like if if Todd like kind of a little bit of I like that

56:37 a little bit of Todd Barry in him I'll I'll get I'll take that he didn't like I had actually prefer to see that character played by Todd good at it cuz he's a like a mastermind

56:46 yeah I would have liked to see like cuz I think his Todd's energy his look is similar, but Todd's energy would have nailed that part. He would have brought that wrestler magic to

56:55 that guy. I looked that cuz I was like, who is that guy? Yeah. And he's been in like every TV show.

57:01 He's been in everything, but has never had like a big thing. Well, this this could have been it. Uh any anybody else? Anybody else? Anything uh before we wrap it up? Uh just uh if the little drummer boy is constantly getting sung by uh

57:15 Oh, yeah. The Christmas music made me sick in this movie. They ruined the Christmas music and then there's like

57:21 sort of upbeat Christmas chamber music at the end like it just which didn't match any part of the movie at all. It was

57:30 it was like it was like a die hard thing. It was like oh yeah Die Hard. It's like I think it was just like mashing together. They also fired their composer uh in the middle of this movie. So like half of the music is done by Aka or like I I'll find out the two different composers like James.

57:44 You know they had that February 25th deadline. They had to get it out. Guys, they got to get this Christmas movie out by February 25th.

57:51 I thought the pool scene with Charlies and Gary Senise was very gross. Where they are revealed to be lovers. She takes her top off. Great tits on Charlies Theon. I'll say that.

58:02 By the way, she's making it quite a few times. That make out they share is disgusto.

58:09 I thought that was gross. Every make out in this Everything is gross in this movie. I mean, make outwise. I I I was very grossed out by it. I

58:17 was so intrigued by that hotel, too, cuz it looked like a Motel 6, but then it had this like weird indoor pool area.

58:23 Yeah. Like, why do they have that pool? That's too nice. Yeah, that pool is By the way, also when Ben finds out that Shirley's and uh and Gary Sneez are fake dating. Like, the way he finds out about it is he hears like Shirley's yelling like, "Hey, get your hands off me. Get your [ __ ] hands off me." And then he goes in and then he finds out, "Oh, they're going out." But she's like drinking out of a wine glass and it looked like they were having a romantic interlude. So it didn't look like it was they were in the middle of a fight. Like it it seemed like they were just like they were drinking wine. They were clearly over it,

58:53 right? Relaxing. Yeah, they were. But there was some argument. I I don't even remember who it took place, but there was a part where he goes, "You said he was stabbed. He took a shiv." Oh, that's that's I said he died.

59:04 That's how it all becomes real. That's who is it? It's what she says that to be to um to Affleck right?

59:13 And then he's like Affleck's like, "Wait, how do you know he took a shiv? I never told you that."

59:17 Right. And then they just keep repeating that. They keep repeating it back and forth because that's letting Gary Senise know that he's being double crossed and he doesn't he's gets super confused. That's when she shoots him in the head,

59:27 right? And she goes, "Oh, men." Okay. And then she becomes the true cold-hearted [ __ ] that we all knew she was.

59:33 Yeah. Women don't trust women. Even though she hates men, she's from South Africa.

59:39 Um, man, oh man. One, one more thing, please. In the beginning when he's talking to his his cellmate in the cell, his cellmate's like reading the letters from Charize Theon and Ben Affleck is exercising, doing push-ups.

59:52 He's doing push-ups and his wife Peter. And then he turns over and he starts doing like situps, but he's just in full conversation as he's doing these weird It just seems like where does he even get the breath to have that conversation? By the way, I keep on thinking like he must have made that regretted that choice immediately like as he's like take 17 [ __ ] like cuz he has to really do it in those scenes. By the way, that's also like a great part of the movie where there should be some like witty reparte between these two like prisons. Nope.

1:00:20 Nothing. None. Very very stale. Even though Ben Affleck has told us in voice over and that's my best friend Nick.

1:00:27 Yeah, it's ludicrous. And and like there's a moment even in the beginning where he was like, "Hey, maybe uh I should [ __ ] this girl that you want to go fuck." And

1:00:36 that was weird. And he was like And then the guy also a really big coincidence that they're being let out on the same day.

1:00:42 Yeah. Two cellmates. Oh, cuz originally I remember thinking like, "Oh, they must be in for the same crime. They must have been partners." And they weren't. They were just cellmates.

1:00:50 No, one guy that guy killed Oh, original G was stabbed somebody. Ben Affleck just stole some cars. No big deal. But that's the way life treats. The award was like, "We'll put you two guys together cuz you get out on the same day, so there won't be any conflicts yourself."

1:01:03 Well, you know, yeah, it's all about jealous. There won't be any hidden resentment.

1:01:06 Well, you know, it's so tough to get new roommates in there, too. Hey, did you Ron Jeremy's in the credits as prisoner number one? I didn't see him in the in

1:01:15 Oh, I did not see him in there either. I didn't see him. Oh, no. His name is Ron Hyatt. Prisoner number one is what it says. Oh, but it is him. Yeah. Ron Hyatt is Ron Jeremy. That's his AKA.

1:01:27 Yeah. Yeah. What? Did not know that. Wow. Hey, uh I don't know if you guys, you know, the movie Bandits came out around the same time uh with uh Bruce Willis.

1:01:38 Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, no. That's the one where he's like having cancer. Him and uh him and uh Oh, man. The guy from Billy Bill Thorn. Yeah. So, I'm not that familiar with this movie, but this kept reminding me of it cuz it's like just that same era and kind of these sprawling crime trips. I I don't

1:01:56 directed by Barry Levenson, too. Like an older director trying to get in on this new like

1:02:01 Yeah. But I I think that one's terrible, too, but I'm not sure if it's as bad as

1:02:04 All right, we'll have you back for that then. Stay tuned for Bandits. 2001's Bandits. Uh opening weekend, $13 million $80 million budget. Uh so um this movie was uh $40 million and it made $30 million worldwide when all said and done. Wow. And all said and done. Um

1:02:25 did Frankenheimer just pass away or they just said no more for you? That was it. He went to movie jail permanently.

1:02:32 Um that was his last film. Uh well would I recommend that you watch this? I wouldn't think it's a necessity to see it. I think you could pass on it. I think if you want to watch that ice fall scene, it's pretty good. And maybe the end the end is pretty good, too. Um,

1:02:46 yeah, you can watch. This is a watch while fast forwarding. Yes. All right. So, that wraps up Reindeer Games. Merry Christmas to all those who celebrate it and happy holidays to all those who don't. See you in the new year.

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "Reindeer Games w/ Howard Kremer (HDTGM Matinee)"?

Howard Kramer (Guest).

What is discussed in "Reindeer Games w/ Howard Kremer (HDTGM Matinee)"?

In order: 0:00 Reindeer Games, Howard Kramer, Seven Days in May, The French Connection; 10:00 Reindeer Games; 50:00 Reindeer Games; 1:00:00 Reindeer Games.

What is mentioned in this How Did This Get Made? episode?

6 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Reindeer Games, Howard Kramer, The Iceman Cometh, The French Connection, Seven Days in May, The Manchurian Candidate. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "Reindeer Games w/ Howard Kremer (HDTGM Matinee)"?

The episode runs 1 h 3 min; the transcript is about 13,076 words in 317 timestamped sections.

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