Return to Oz

What this episode is about

The discussion centers around the 1985 Disney film "Return to Oz," exploring its status as a lesser-known sequel to "The Wizard of Oz." The hosts dissect the film's combination of bizarre elements, memorable characters like the Tik-Tok robot, and its overall impact, all while celebrating its perceived failures and wondering how such a unique project came to be.

Key takeaways

• Disney's 1985 'Return to Oz' defies childhood nostalgia, diving into themes of trauma and institutionalization.
• Dull colors and dark plots make 'Return to Oz' feel like 'Grapes of Wrath' instead of a family adventure.
• A sequel blurring boundaries: 'Return to Oz' is more a psychological horror than children's fantasy.
• Unlike its predecessor, 'Return to Oz' lacks emotional depth, leaving viewers questioning why Dorothy returns at all.
• Is nostalgia worth the trauma? 'Return to Oz' explores darker narratives that challenge the innocence of children's tales.

Who speaks in this episode?

• Paul Scheer (Host) · 25 min speaking
• Jason Mantzoukas (Host) · 22 min speaking
• June Diane Raphael (Host) · 16 min speaking

What is discussed, and when

1. 0:00 – 10:00: Paul Shear, Return to Oz, June Diane Rafield, Tik Tok
2. 10:00 – 20:00: Fuzza Balk, Walter Merch, Return to Oz, Frank El Bomb
3. 20:00 – 30:00: Tik Tok, Frank El Bomb
4. 30:00 – 40:00: Pan's Labyrinth
5. 40:00 – 50:00: Return to Oz, Hereditary, Sucker Punch
6. 50:00 – 1:00:00: Return to Oz, Tik Tok
7. 1:00:00 – 1:02:00: Paul Shear, Return to Oz, June Diane Rafield

Notable quotes from "Return to Oz"

• Get behind. We saw Return to Oz. So, you know what that means. Now, it's time for this. We're going to have a good time celebrating failure, not just cuz you know you wonder…

  about Return to Oz · at 0:03

• Please welcome Jason Manzukus and June Diane Rafield. How are you both? I traumatized. Yes, truly traumatized. I found this to be Wait, have you guys seen this movie?

  about Jason Manzukas · at 1:01

• Sometimes I will when we watch a movie, especially if it's old, I will check in on where they are now. And Tik Tok the robot is definitely on OMIC.

  about Tik Tok · at 2:17

• I don't feel right. No, I feel there's such The Wizard of Oz is very important to me and it's such a perfect movie that this return to Oz and what they did here is really distressing.

  about June Diane Rafield · at 3:31

• Like it does feel like I mean just I want to put it out there that this is directed by Walter Merch who wrote this as well and Walter Merch if you don't know one of the…

  about Walter Merch · at 12:24

• So grim, but I do think it's it is exactly what those books are. Now, I will say though, this is an example of why it is important sometimes to not at all be faithful to the original source material to really like let go. Well, you know,.

  about Frank El Bomb · at 13:30

• But I do want to call this out. Fuzza Balk, who's in you would say like 98% of the film, right? she was not permitted to work more than 3 and a half hours each day and she…

  about Fuzza Balk · at 19:37

• All right, there you go. And I'll tell people I released this little mini documentary where I talk to Taylor Swift dads. And it's you don't have to be a Taylor Swift fan. You don't have to be a dad. You just have to be a.

  about Paul Shear · at 1:00:54

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

• Paul Shear — Person · Host · 4 mentions · first at 0:27
  Host and primary narrator of the episode; frames the discussion of Disney’s 1985 film 'Return to Oz' and guides co-hosts through analysis and segments (e.g., second opinions).
• June Diane Rafield — Person · Co-host · 4 mentions · first at 1:01
  Co-host focusing on emotional/character continuity with 'The Wizard of Oz' and critique of adaptation choices; contributes key thematic objections and scene reactions.
• Jason Manzukas — Person · Co-host · 1 mention · first at 1:01
  Co-host providing reactions, comedic riffs, and thematic interpretation (e.g., villain analysis, egg allergy joke thread, Wheelers discussion).
• Walter Merch — Person · Referenced filmmaker (director/editor) · 2 mentions · first at 12:29
  Cited as the director and co-writer of 'Return to Oz' and discussed as a legendary editor, used to contextualize the film’s craft and tonal choices.
• Fuzza Balk — Person · Referenced actor (lead performer in film discussed) · 2 mentions · first at 17:11
  Discussed as the child actor carrying most scenes alone in 'Return to Oz'; praised for performance under child labor constraints and heavy practical-effects acting.
• Frank El Bomb — Person · Referenced author (source material) · 2 mentions · first at 13:36
  Named as the author whose Oz books are being adapted; used to contrast fidelity to books vs. the 1939 film’s tone and structure.
• Gendi Tardikovsky — Person · Referenced creator (comparative pop-culture reference) · 1 mention · first at 1:41
  Referenced to compare the 'Tik-Tok' robot design to a similar robot character in 'Unicorn: Warriors Eternal', supporting discussion of recurring visual motifs.
  Looks exactly and I'm sure there's a reason for this, the robot in Gendi Tardikovsky's Unicorn Warriors Eternal has a Tik Tok robot character in it. That's the same.

Books & papers

• Wisconsin Death Trip — Book · Referenced work · 1 mention · first at 13:58
  Book mentioned as inspiration for 'Return to Oz'
  June, I just want to give you one little tip here that he wasn't just faithful to Frank El Bomb's work. Walter Merch says that he used a lot of inspiration from a book called…
• Grapes of Wrath — Book · Comparative reference · 1 mention · first at 6:06
  Compared to the desaturated scenes in 'Return to Oz'
  Color, but it somehow seems like it has less color than black and white. Like it is dull. It looks like Dust Bowl era Grapes of Wrath. Yes. It's like I was like this is we're so smart. Grapes of Wrath.

Media & podcasts

• Return to Oz — Media · Core topic · 9 mentions · first at 0:03
  Main subject of the podcast episode, discussed in depth
• Tik Tok — Media · Referenced character · 9 mentions · first at 1:23
  Robot character in 'Return to Oz' discussed for its design and significance
• Pan's Labyrinth — Media · Comparative reference · 3 mentions · first at 6:47
  Compared to 'Return to Oz' for its dark fantasy elements
  It's so the emotional there's no emotional connective tissue between the two films. this isn't a sequel to The Wizard of Oz, as far as I'm concerned. This is sort of another…
• Hereditary — Media · Comparative reference · 2 mentions · first at 6:47
  Compared to 'Return to Oz' for its horror elements
  To The Wizard of Oz, as far as I'm concerned. This is sort of another telling of the book. This is more of a sequel to Hereditary than it is Wizard of Oz.
• Sucker Punch — Media · Comparative reference · 2 mentions · first at 9:04
  Compared to 'Return to Oz' for its themes of institutionalization and escape
  To be playing. I didn't understand the what or the why. I'll go one step further. This is a sequel to a movie that we've not seen, right? cuz at one point she's flying over a…
• C3PO — Media · Comparative reference · 1 mention · first at 2:31
  Compared to Tik Tok the robot in 'Return to Oz'
  He's so skinny right now. It's crazy. He looks like C3PO.
• James Bond — Media · Referenced work · 1 mention · first at 3:02
  Mentioned in the context of Disney's attempts to capture younger audiences
  Because they kind of lost their younger audiences. And this is the moment where they go, Oh, okay. We'll do Star Wars.
• Lord of the Rings — Media · Comparative reference · 1 mention · first at 8:42
  Compared to 'The Wizard of Oz' for its adventure elements
  It's so clear in the initial movie who wants what, who needs what, and what the journey is. It's a real It's a real fellowship of the ring, Lord of the Rings. we're on an adventure.
• Apocalypse Now — Media · Referenced work · 1 mention · first at 12:41
  Mentioned in the context of Walter Murch's career
  Apocalypse Now the conversation the English patient like the godfather like he's like done it all. you know so like he is wrote a book on editing like definitely gets it and I wouldn't say.

Full transcript with timestamps

0:01 Finally, a movie villain that Jason can get behind. We saw Return to Oz. So, you know what that means. Now, it's time for this. We're going to have a good time celebrating failure, not just cuz you know you wonder how this wall in the mediocrity of some art. Perhaps we'll find the answer to the question, how did this get made? Hello people of earth and welcome to How Did This Get Made? I am your host Paul Shear and today we are talking about a little known sequel to The Wizard of Oz. Yes, this was a big budget film made by Disney back in 1985.

0:45 The IMDb log line says, "Darothy, saved from a psychiatric experiment by a mysterious girl, is somehow called back to Oz when a vain witch and a gnome king destroy everything that makes the magical land beautiful and wow." Here to discuss it all are my two co-hosts. Please welcome Jason Manzukus and June Diane Rafield. How are you both? I traumatized. Yes, truly traumatized. I found this to be Wait, have you guys seen this movie?

1:13 No, never. Oh, okay. Okay. Okay. I didn't know if this was a popular movie for like a younger generation.

1:23 No, I am very familiar with uh Tik Tok, not the app, but the robot because that uh robot has been in a lot of like whenever they bring around like Star Wars stuff like Tik Tok the robot is out in the about. Tik Tok. The robot also looks exactly like, and I'm sure there's a reason for this, uh, the robot in Gendi Tardikovsky's um, Unicorn Warriors Eternal has a Tik Tok robot character in it. That's the same.

1:52 See, I just thought he looked like Monopoly man. Oh, that too. That too, man. What like a what a pervasive image that is throughout so many like the the upturned mustache, the monle, all of that.

2:06 A potbelly robot is an odd choice. It doesn't seem functional in any way to give your robot girth.

2:14 Well, have you seen, and I don't know if either of you guys do this, cuz sometimes I will when we watch a movie, especially if it's old, I will check in on uh where they are now. And Tik Tok the robot is definitely on OMIC.

2:28 He is so good. Good. He's so skinny right now. It's crazy. He looks like C3PO. Well, now the mustache looks too big on him. It looks way too big.

2:39 So, okay. So, you guys have not seen this, but was this and Paul, maybe this is in your research, so forgive me.

2:45 Was this a popular move? Like, what did this Okay, this isn't a moment, right? just to set the stage. Disney's like, "Uh-oh, what do we do?" Right? And they don't know which direction to go in because they kind of lost their younger audiences. And this is the moment where they go, "Oh, okay. We'll do Star Wars." And they make The Black Hole. And then they go, "Uh, that didn't work. Oh, we'll make uh James Bond." They make this movie called Condor Man. Then they make Escape from Witch Mountain, which is great and scary. I loved

3:17 awesome. And I think this is kind of in that same vein of like we're not the Disney that you know we're the this Disney.

3:24 Here's what's interesting though. I I'm I just finished it. Same. I I don't feel right. No,

3:34 I feel there's such um The Wizard of Oz is very important to me and it's such a perfect movie that this return to Oz and what they did here is really distressing to me cuz I'm like, let's say you are Disney and you're going to go back into the property of Wizard of Oz and the books and all of it. Why would you choose to do this?

4:01 Oh, yeah. I agree. Why? This is not a children's movie. It's not. Well, you know what it is, though? It is a It's a children's movie. When you think about maybe some of the other children's movies that are around at this time, this to me felt like Wizard of Oz meets The Dark Crystal.

4:18 Yes. Like it felt like it was in a darker, scarier world, you know, like. And I don't know if this is in the books and they're just adapting the book, but

4:29 this is two different books they've kind of adapted and put together as one. So it is and I will say that the bomb estate

4:37 says this is my Oz. No, I understand that and I've heard that before. That's I think the one thing I had heard about Return

4:47 to Oz, which is that like it is close to the source material in a way that Wizard of Oz is not her in terms of her age and also the darkness of it.

4:56 Here's what I just want to say and and the reality of it like that's this is my main this is my main issue is that of course in the Wizard of Oz she wakes up at the end

5:06 right in this movie and Oz was a dream and in this movie Oz is not a dream. No. Oddly, the house did fly away. It is in Oz, but yet she also is a child that is going through, at least through her parents' eyes, a psychotic break. She's having like tornado PTSD. She's also institutionalized and on the verge of getting 1930s electroshock treatment. That,

5:35 you know, that was that was the part of the movie that was the movie opens. It's so in, you know, and it parallels uh Wizard of Oz really well in the sense that like the Wizard of Oz starts off black and white and then once you get to Oz, it's color. In this version of it, though, it's all in color, but the the initial scenes are fully desaturated and it looks like they're in like Days of Heaven.

5:59 I I was going to say that it it is in color, but it somehow seems like it has less color than black and white. Like it it is dull. It looks like Dust Bowl era Grapes of Wrath of Wrath. Yes. It's like I was like this is

6:14 we're so smart. Grapes of Wrath. We love it. But when when you see the home life of Darthy,

6:23 not to skip to the end, but why would she ever want to go back? The original Darthy, I get why she wants to go like this. Your parents are putting you in an institution like a scary institution where they're strapping you down to a

6:38 bed thing. But oh my gosh, this is why it's so the emotional there's no emotional connective tissue between the two films. I mean, this isn't a sequel to The Wizard of Oz, as far as I'm concerned. This is sort of another telling of the book. This is more of a sequel to Hereditary than it is Wizard of Oz.

7:00 But like but I guess that's why I'm just so confused because to when in the beginning of this movie Oz is real. That wasn't a dream to her.

7:12 She didn't really but more than that I mean that's distressing. But all of the deeply important lessons that she learned that she taught herself through that dream about about Oz about you know what's import what's important in life about about knowing what you already have and trusting it that it's going to come from you about imagination about all these things are completely like thrown away.

7:43 She seems duller. Oh, like at upon her return significantly younger and and here's here's which I'm okay with because I I like that she is a younger I like that a younger person is being put in this kind of incredibly fantastical world. But what is so difficult to reconcile as I'm watching this is that the events of the Wizard of Oz have already happened to this p to this child

8:12 and that doesn't feel like what's happen. This feels like a prequel in many ways and it is a undeniable sequel. And so what's what I kept having a real trouble figuring out is she's already been through all this. Now obviously Oz is so different and you know everything has changed.

8:29 Sure. Yeah. But like it is so um it is so hard to keep track of it's so clear in the initial movie who wants what, who needs what, and what the journey is. It's a real It's a real fellowship of the ring, Lord of the Rings. Like, we're on an adventure. These It's a found family. These are my people. Each of us has these components, and we're going to move forward. In this movie, I didn't know who wanted what. I didn't know what role they were supposed to be uh uh playing. I didn't understand the what or the why. I'll go one step further. This is a sequel to a movie that we've not seen, right? cuz at one point she's flying over a place and she's oh well this is the desert land. I remember I saw this when we were when we were I'm like wait no no no we don't know this.

9:18 And also when they say your shoes your ruby red slippers when the king of gnomes or whatever he is says your ruby red slippers fell off when you were flying back to

9:26 you the did they let's give me give me a little like give me a like a like not a prequel but give me like a last time on like

9:35 listen I felt like that this entire thing I was like we are all being institutionalized. We are all our reality is being questioned just like hers and I don't know what the answer is.

9:47 It's a it's Go ahead, Paul. I was going to tell you the the most disturbing moment and it for me it's right here in this this part and tell me if this hit you in the wrong way that could hit me. Her brushing the hair of a jacko'lantern that has no hair but like her in that that hospital room just pretend brushing. It's a

10:09 I was like this is this is the scariest thing I've ever seen in my life. So for me in that same section what I found absolutely bone chilling was that here is this doctor who is going to give her electroshock treatment and the way he describes it is to make the machine have a face. Oh, this electrical marvel will make it possible for you to sleep again, and it will also get rid of all those bad waking dreams that you've been telling me about. Now, this fella here has a face. You see it? Here are his eyes. And this must be his nose.

10:59 And this must be his mouth. What's this, Dorothy? Why? It's his tongue. Here's this machine that's going to rob you of who you are. That's going to give you this barbaric treatment. Uh, and it and here's its eyes and here's its nose. And he's making it this cute. He's personifying it in a way that is so that has such insidious malice to it. It's like, "Trust this machine that's going to destroy you."

11:35 Yeah. And she sees a face in it. And by the way, I mean, I guess that's supposed to be Tik Tok. Or another question for you both. Is this a dream? It feels like it has elements of a dream and then elements that it's not. Cuz at the end,

11:53 it could have been a dream. She better keep her [ __ ] mouth shut though when she comes back to this one.

11:58 That's the lesson though, Paul. For real. That is the lesson of the movie. Yes. Yeah. Keep it to your keep secrets.

12:04 Keep your dreams and your imagination and your thoughts private. Well, when it's like when it is whatever 1930 whatever, you know, like kids weren't nobody wanted to hear from these dangers.

12:16 No, that's that's the moral of the story. But this is a movie made in 1985 as a children's film. like it's like like it does feel like I mean just I want to put it out there that this is directed by uh Walter Merch who uh wrote this as well and Walter Merch if you don't know one of the legendary um editors of our time. I mean just like

12:41 a true responsible for so many of the movies. Apocalypse Now the conversation the English patient like the godfather like he's like done it all. um you know so like he is wrote a book on editing like definitely gets it and I wouldn't say the movie is poorly edited it just is like it doesn't

13:02 I do think this is a faithful adaptation I think this is a faithful adaptation of whatever they were adapting those two books put together the darkness of it the childhood trauma that her age I think this is all clearly it's faithful there's no songs that was not written as a musical there's no uh joy, there's no it is just a very very dark tale about

13:27 industrialization, I guess. But it it's so grim, but I do think it's it is exactly what those books are. Now, I will say though, this is an example of why it is important sometimes to not at all be faithful to the original source material

13:46 to really like let go. Well, you know, June, I just want to give you one little tip here that he wasn't just faithful to Frank El Bomb's work. Walter Merch says that he used a lot of inspiration from uh from a book called Wisconsin Death Trip, uh a 1973 historical non-fiction book about like Dtheria in uh in Black River Falls between 1885 and 1910. What the?

14:14 So I I mean clear I will say there's this is a movie that has a lot of craft. You know what I mean? Like it there is a lot going into this. It is wellmade. It's it's not like

14:28 I have to say the hallway of heads or whatever that was called. The detachable heads. Yeah.

14:32 The detachable heads I thought was amazing. I thought there's so many scary unbelievable. And once you realize like what's going on with those heads and what she's doing and Princess, I thought it was really really incredible.

14:46 Are those heads that different? I mean, later in the movie, we find out that the gnome uh king had gave her a bunch of heads so she would do his bidding. And I was like, it didn't seem like she was really exploring how many different faces she could possibly have. A lot of those heads seemed very like, you know, let's let's get a shaved head. Let's get a cool, you know, like let me give me a a couple give me a guy's head in there. Say we want a punk rock head.

15:11 Yeah. With a mohawk. Um I I felt like what's so true is I believe Do I believe this? Maybe not. I What I was going to say is this is clearly a sequel to a book. The book was not what The Wizard of Oz was.

15:31 You know what I mean? Like, so what's curious to me is that they a boy do I wish they had started with in 1985. What if we did a faithful to the book adaptation of the Wizard of Oz? No songs, none of that stuff. we're just going to do that in hopes of it working and them getting to then do this book to continue the world of the way that um and and forgive me this is not exactly a onetoone but the Arnold Schwarzenegger running man is barely an adaptation of the Stephen King story wi versus Edgar writes which is a much more faithful adaptation and the movies are quite different as a result in a way that is

16:12 totally give us the darker version of wizard. That's what I'm saying. Give us give us like a an overture. Just even give us a 10-minute thing like, "Okay, we got it." But but what we're even seeing, cuz we're supposed to feel connection when she meets the scarecrow. I'm like, "That's not my scarecrow. That scarecrow is ain't my scarecrow."

16:28 And and by the way, I'm also feeling like, well, my scarecrow is now my pumpkin jack, which by the way, Tim Burton has admitted he has used inspiration for Jack Skellington. Uh, you know, you got I mean,

16:41 by the way, one of the most chilling moments to me, my scariest moment, was when Pumpkin Jack started calling her mom.

16:48 Dorothy, may I call you mom, even if it isn't so. Thank you. Oh, no. That was throughout. Really, really distressing. And then even worse, she started responding to it.

17:09 I couldn't deal with it because because she is I'm going to Oh, this is Fuza Balk uh in this performance. And it is I will say an inc I mean she's got to be like 9 years old. How old is she? 10 years old. Yeah, she's a very young child when she's doing. I think this is a fantastic performance because in every single scene but a handful, she is acting alone against inanimate objects. There is there's it's a pile of rocks. It's a pile. It's like the She's doing a great job in service of scenes where she has no scene partners. It's very weird.

17:47 I do agree that she's great and the portrayal of Darthothy Gale. Um I mean Judy Garland's performance is one of the the you know one of the best performances ever on film but it's so childlike and it's so um innocent and beautiful and joyful and and

18:10 you mean Judy Garland's Yes. Yes. so buoyant and so I think vulnerable too. I think it's so beautiful and alive. Um, but there's something about Darthothy Gail in the Return to Oz that feels even though she's significantly younger playing an 8-year-old or a 9-year-old, she feels much older.

18:35 It feels like her. Yeah. And Judy Garland's playing like a 12, 13y old. I have nothing to say about the performance. It's it she she is she looks like she got the treatment the shock treatment like she does not look happy. She doesn't like you know what she looks like. She looks like an actual 10year-old from that era. Like Judy Garland skipping around with baskets and Toto and having fun and it that's not her life in like in Dust Bowl era like this little girl is

19:07 she's been hungry before. She's gone to bed hungry many, many nights. And the movie is done a disservice by purporting to be a Wizard of Oz sequel only because don't call it that.

19:21 Call it anything else. And we would have enjoyed it. Looked it has more in common with Pan's Labyrinth

19:26 than it does. Yes. You know, than it does The Wizard of Oz. Now, here's what I will say. just and I don't like to always do this in this show because it's not always about this, but I do want to call this out. Fuzza Balk, who's in you would say like 98% of the film, right? Um, she was not permitted to work more than 3 and a half hours each day and she could only work between 9 and 4:30 and that had to include breaks and education in there. So to think about the production of this movie on top of that, like and you're right, she's in scenes. She's in all of it. It's like,

20:07 what are they getting? Like what are we what are we shooting at? How long did it take? And you know, like and it's not like, oh, well, when she is uh when we when we lose her for the day early, uh at least we can shoot, you know, all like this happens on Percy Jackson because there's all the so many of the kids are young young kids. And you also become a pumpkin. Yes. After what?

20:28 I I am a pumpkin headed man on that as well. Half hours. Yeah. Yeah. But all the kids when they have to leave, we basically then turn around and shoot all the adults coverage once the kids are gone. But there are no adults in this. There are no other people in this. They're not like, "Oh, okay. Now that Dorothy has to go. We're going to just shoot the chicken."

20:49 [ __ ] that chicken, by the way. The worst. The worst. And the you go from Toto to a [ __ ] chicken. Really upset me.

20:58 Does she wipe her eye with that chicken when she's crying? At one point I felt like when she tears up and she lifts the chicken and I'm like, you can't wipe your eye with a chicken.

21:05 You guys a question about the Wizard of Oz. And I'm going to admit something here that is perhaps uh an insane statement. I haven't watched The Wizard of Oz since I was a kid. This is not a movie that I rewatch or that I have any any real like affinity for other than when it was on TV as a kid. I watched it and I watched it a handful of times.

21:28 I don't remember. Toto didn't talk, did he? No. No. Oh, okay. Okay. Okay. Cuz the minute cuz she has a chicken at home and then when she's in Oz with the chicken, the chicken talks.

21:41 There's some place for a chicken. Cool. When did you learn to talk anyway? I thought hence could only cluck and cackle.

21:50 Strange, ain't it? How's my grammar? If we were in the land of Oz, your talking wouldn't be strange at all.

21:58 And she's like, well, we must be in Oz because now you can talk. But I But then I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute. Did Toto talk when they went to Oz? And okay, good. Thank god. Also,

22:07 no, thank God. But but as Paul said, like the downgrade, the [ __ ] downgrade, you the chick. This is a low. I mean, can you imagine being there for the first one and getting the lion, the the to you've got Toto, you've got the the Tin Man, you've got all these great characters. And the B team that shows up in this movie, I was like, aside from Expendable Seven,

22:30 except for Tik Tok, who I wonder if if my character from John Wick 3, uh, the Tik Tok man is in any way related. I feel like they have to be. I do want to talk about Tik Tok because I do think there is something going on about like machinery and I but I couldn't I don't have I don't I didn't really like understand it like I know that the beware of the wheelers and wheels and

22:57 Oh yeah the industrial I liked them as taking over me too butual but then there was Tik Tok

23:04 and I was like steampunky he's Yeah. He's not the tin man. No. You know, who's worried about not feeling who's worried about only being sort of um you know, metal and scraps and not being human? But that's not I couldn't understand like what is Tik Tok? Exactly.

23:25 Well, to me, I think that Tik Tok is like chill the [ __ ] out. You can't be excited. Like Tik Tok is that that machine, right? So, I think it's about controlling her emotions, but then at the end he kind of gets emotions, I guess, right? Like, or I think it's yes, yes to what we're talking about, but the movie is not doing us any favors to foreground it and say this is the search that this that this character is on or this is the, you know, in a in a way that I found just confounding. Um,

23:58 no. like we are the Tik Tok, Pumpkin Man, and the couch to be honest, have all the same emotional like interior. I just I couldn't like and what's such a bummer about that is

24:13 her friends on the Yellow Brick Road and how beautiful, rich, important those performances. My god, like

24:22 to be saddled with not a single one of them has a human face. which felt very pointed. I didn't know if it was like, "Oh, those characters are so iconic, like they're so physical and beautiful from Wizard of Oz that we're not even going to try."

24:43 No, they they went to like a like a carto books, they are they look similar to that. Like the way the Tin Man I was like, "Oo, this doesn't even feel right here." Um, I do want to bring up

24:57 and what we're up against is the the decision to make The Wizard of Oz so much different from the books means that by by participating in any future storytelling based on the books, it almost is unrecognizable to the movie Wizard of Oz.

25:12 And I and I I will tell you one thing. I saw the original Wizard of Oz recently and uh the scarecrow not that handsy with Darthy originally. When he first wakes up, he's like, "Oh, I'm like he's like, "What what's going on here?" I I'll tell you this much uh with

25:26 it's also the same exact beat like when she's stuffing the scarecrow with his hay and like when she's doing the exact same thing with Jack the pumpkin in this.

25:37 Can I The character that bums me out is Gump the the animal who's having this crisis of conscious being like was I alive before this? I remember a life before being a mounted animal. I'm like, "Oh, what what is that?" Like,

25:54 like everybody in the movie like with the exception actually no, including Dorothy are having existential crisis.

26:04 They're all in like deep psychic distress and it's it's very uncomfortable to watch.

26:09 Yes. And there's something about the changes to the wizard. My guess is Well, no. Uh books are Wait, tell me again. 1939 for the movie film is 39. And what were the books?

26:22 The books 18 1890 is where 1890. Okay. So there's something about to me 1939 like the movie being like a postdepression era movie. So to make it as bleak as what these books must have been, this is a bleak movie. You know what I mean? This is not a joyful movie in the middle and it ends in a pretty bleak manner. So, I can see them in the 30s being like, "Okay, we have just come out of one of the most awful periods of time. Let's yes, this source material, but let's plus it up with some songs.

26:57 Yeah. Let's make it fun. Let's make it beautiful." People responded to it. Absolutely.

27:04 Not like let's bum people. It's like I don't see a better version. It's like I don't want to be in Oz. I don't want to be in Kansas. I don't want to be here. I kind of want to go back to that machine. Erase it all. I'll be happier. I Let me just And the girl who's living in mirrors, I'm like, I I don't need any of this.

27:22 Oh, at the beginning I was like, "Oh, thank God she has a friend." And I was like "No no

27:26 nope, nope." Well, this I think the thing that's also just so disappointing about this one is her journey in The Wizard of Oz is so clear and so relatable that that idea that that there's someone's coming to save us. that if we could just get if we could just get this one thing, if we could just figure this out, if we could just get this one job or whatever, that that our lives will be unlocked and things will be so much easier and that someone outside of ourselves is going to make that happen. The moment in the Wizard of Oz when it reveals that there's just no, you know, tiny man behind the curtain is so incredibly powerful.

28:06 Yeah. for her emotional journey and in this movie her her journey I think is to prove first starts off to prove Oz is real but then to restore it but for what I guess

28:22 yeah that's it like for what reason how does that like how is that paying off anything that the movie began with like where like any of the established wants or anything that the movie begins telling us is is is not even part of uh the resolution or or or where where or or her pursuit of a resolution. You know, she is so much more of a passive character inside of this movie. The the movie is happening to her, whereas in the Wizard of Oz,

28:57 Dorothy is inexplicably driving them forward towards the Emerald City. And in this one, she is just reactive. It is just like, "Oh no. Oh, look at that. Oh, look at that." And it actually feels like in a way it's like she's remembering the Wizard of Oz post a traumatic event like like post her mind or because it's like she's not really on a journey here. She's not really like I guess she is trying to find the scarecrow, but she's really just kind of like looking at what happened before, right? I mean, she's also not trying to cuz there's the You could easily say like "Oh

29:36 she's back. Nobody believes her." Yeah. She's older. She's like, "Oh, I need to be able to for my own sake like,

29:46 right, I need to see it for myself again. I need to prove to myself that this is real, if not to the people around me, so as so as to not be perceived of as needing electroshock treatment, you know."

29:56 Well, but of course, that's confusing. It all falls apart when when we like confront the fact that it wasn't real.

30:04 Yeah. Now, I I do I do want to say one thing. I want when our son talked a lot about Pokemon, we did get him electroshock therapy

30:12 cuz he just was talking about this nonsense. We didn't understand it and it was like and we just like get it out. We have to get it out. Um and that, you know, that's fine to do. Uh but I mean, but besides that, I think back then it's far back.

30:26 I mean, that's the thing, right? It's like she only is showing imagination. She's not even depressed about being away from us. She's excited to tell people.

30:34 But Paul, because she's staying up so late and can't sleep, she's not able to wake up early and tend to the farm.

30:40 Yeah. That is how the movie starts off. She's not That's why Anm takes her there.

30:47 She's got to work. She's got to work. She's got to work. Otherwise, she's going to get left at the asylum.

30:53 A thousand%. You can actually in the world of Oz be mentally insane as long as you wake up early and can help Antm out with the farm

31:03 big time. Whoa. Big time. Yeah. No, I think that's it. And again, this exists in a time when children worked when ch there are no child labor laws. There are there is no you get to be a teenager and go to college. Kid, that kid is going to work that farm now, you know, at whatever 10 years old. That's why you have kids.

31:24 That That is why you have kids and that's why you have a lot of them because you got a lot of farm to cover and some of them aren't going to make it.

31:31 And she's doing a damn bad job because you know what she By the way, the mom is threatening Bolina, right? She's like, "If you don't [ __ ] another egg, like you're we're going to eat you." I mean, that's the other thing, too. So, she's

31:42 I would love it if she said if you don't [ __ ] another egg. I mean, that's I mean, basically, that is like what she's worried about. His mom's like, "We're going to eat your pet. The only thing that you have here, your only connection to life, we're gonna eat that thing. And she's like desperately

31:56 Toto. Toto rocking around. Yeah, I guess. Yeah, Toto's still rocking around. But boy, if I'm Toto, I'm like, come. Hey guys, can I get some action? Like, how come she gets to go back and I don't? Like, the movie from Toto's point of view is like, hey, I'd like to go back to Oz as well.

32:13 The Toto that I know would have followed that horse and carriage and jumped in the back and got too. I felt that too.

32:22 Do you guys think and maybe this is for the later in the episode, but if this I can't even if this had no relationship to the movie The Wizard of Oz, but was just a 1980s like like like I'm saying like uh Pan's Labyrinth, Dark Crystal, Labyrin, Regular Labyrinth.

32:42 I might feel different. Would you enjoy a movie in which a little girl descends into a f like an Alice in Wonderland type of a story that's dark and scary? And I mean, I still agree this is so aimless and I don't quite know who wants what and how and I'm not tracking if we're getting closer or further away, but I I liked a lot of the movie if if I'm being honest. Watching the movie, I liked quite a bit of it once I let go of the fact that any of it was going to somehow be related to the movie that I remember as the Wizard of Oz.

33:17 Well, I didn't let go of that and I was simply disturbed like that. Like that was the thing like I was disturbed by

33:25 and but that's what I didn't mind. I was like, "Oh, I don't mind like dark kid kid like dark we this is scary. This is I I didn't mind that as much." I guess if I took it away from the fact, well then this but this isn't Oz. This is you know this I kept kind of bumping out by being like oh this is not the Wizard of Oz. This is like

33:47 right the Dark Crystal, you know. Yeah. I mean I think that it was very hard for me to divorce

33:54 from the Wizard of Oz. I just I I couldn't even though there were things that I really loved too there. I loved that hallway of heads. I loved, you know, her trying to get the the key or whatever it was from the headless from Princess Mumbai. And there were there were moments that were so great, but it also to not have any of the beauty of Oz or even to not have like the beauty of Galinda or this Princess Oz and the mirror. To not have any of like the magical beauty was really hard for me. And even the way Dorothy was dressed. I actually took I I actually need to speak about this for a while.

34:37 Great. Let's go. Yeah. Clear the deck here. Hold on. I will Excuse me. I'm going to mute my

34:44 great Jason's muted. You know, I understand like you're not going to ever just replicate or or reach the height of like what that iconic blue and white gingham dress was. And I get that. So don't even So don't try to do that or a version of that, but to do what they did

35:06 to put her in that white weird white dress which I I can't even track. Did it change from the asylum to Oz exactly the same? And it's like it was so um not that it needs to be flattering on a nine-year-old child, but it was so sort of shapeless and strange, billowy, was all sleeves.

35:30 It wasn't there was nothing about it like if I'm a kid watching this movie, I don't feel connected in any way.

35:36 That's exactly my point. There's nothing for me. And by the way, I think her bows were too big in her hair.

35:42 Her bows were too big, right? It it felt to me like they were trying to be I I wouldn't be surprised if they were like, "Oh, no, no, we did the research. This is what a 10-year-old girl would have worn

35:55 and that's what kills this movie these years." And and so that is the movie we're making is a more grounded, more faithful representation of, you know what I mean? In a

36:05 way. But when I tell you, Jason, when those Ruby Red slippers came out, I I just was like, "Thank you for giving me something to look at."

36:15 Yeah. To feast my weary eyes upon. And I I did love I thought it was like a wonderful little gender bending moment when the king gnome or whoever he was like pulled up his little pulled up his that fabric that he was wearing to reveal those slippers.

36:34 Yeah. Yeah, there were moments I liked in here. Oh, yeah. Here's Yeah, I think if you're right, Jason, if you change your point of view on it, there's something very like weird. It's like it is so much of what's weird about it is that it's a Wizard of Oz movie. You know what I mean?

36:47 Now, here, you know, it's like there are these things about it that are very specific. It doesn't feel like what they were trying to do, right? It feels marketed to a kids movie. Here's the thing that upset me, though, which is I'm okay. I'll take the the the the dress. I'll take the the like the less likable characters. I'll take all of that. But when you turn Oz back, like let me see something and it looks like the shittiest wedding venue like like on the outskirts of New Jersey that you could possibly get to. I was like, "This is not Oz. This is

37:26 This is not my Oz. This is not my Not my Oz. Not my Oz. The # notmy Oz. My Oz is Dr. Oz, who's I haven't checked in with in a number of years, but his no align yourself with him.

37:44 You Yeah. You want to get yourself on uh You want to go Dr. Phil. That's the one that you want to align.

37:48 Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Phil, he's the one. Oh, man. Oprah picks terrible doctors. I think is the is the note there.

37:56 I mean, or or the power goes to their head. We already know that doctors have, you know, they already have a god complex. You put them with Oprah, then they got to go to the next level.

38:08 I'm going to be thinking about this movie more than I should because there are images in it and I need to talk about a character that's near and dear to you, Jason, which is the gnome, the rock monster gnome, who does not want chickens in Oz. We don't know why he doesn't want chickens. And at the end of the movie, Yeah. Bolina the chicken shits an egg down his throat and kills him. Yes.

38:32 Oh no, dear. I finally laid my egg. Don't you know that eggs are poison? Poison indeed.

38:49 Poison. poison to Okay, wait a second. Does she know that that's poison? I think the chicken was just as scared.

39:01 And is that how you shoot an egg? Like that's what happens physiologically? Like you get really scared?

39:07 My assumption was that the the chicken knew that the egg would kill him because it's only visible slightly in one scene. He's wearing a medical alert bracelet that says severely allergic to eggs.

39:20 Stop it right now. Well, you should which is a bracelet which is a bracelet that my mother made me wear for my entire childhood.

39:28 Oh man, Jason, but you had to wear it. Oh, no. No. Without a doubt, it was essential. Oh, no. No. Essential. But a me wearing a little a silver bracelet that just said severely allergic to eggs on the back of it engraved.

39:45 Oh my gosh. But you know, it breaks my heart. But I'm also like, yeah. Hey, good. Thank God.

39:51 Good, good, good. Like, you know, I I do I you know, I thought that there was something really uh odd or interesting about the fact that instead of just well, he just wanted chickens gone like he had like a a chicken genocide in Oz uh in a way, you know, it's like he like and only because the fear that that might happen. I mean, and he got it good. He got it.

40:14 Oh my god, did he ever I mean, did that feel healing to you in some ways, Jason? It really Yeah, it it really brought something home for me, you know. It really I felt as though all of my angst and anxieties with my uh allergy really this this was a a a salve a it really helped. Could you have been this person, you know, Jason, could if your mom didn't make you that bracelet, could you have could you have become a gnome knight, you know, gnome king and prison everybody? Oh, if if my parents had simply if my mother had simply said to me chickens are the threat, you know what I mean? Instead of people are the threat, people are going to give you eggs. So that my trust my I I learned to not trust people. But if I had been told don't trust chickens, much different.

41:06 Much different. And maybe we wouldn't have the podcast. Like we can't go through those sliding doors cuz you know everything kind of happened for a reason as well how I think of it.

41:16 Oh yeah. And let's me be very clear. There would be no chickens on earth because the last 45 years of my life would have been spent just murdering chickens.

41:27 Oh god. I mean, yeah, they don't really get into why the chickens are outlawed or how he got rid of the chickens, but I I'm gonna say it definitely was not uh it was not pleasant. I mean, he is a he tortures. I mean, the fact that he does that little game with them.

41:41 Oh, to turn them into ornaments. Yes. To ornaments. Yeah. To ornaments. And by the way, like but then when we see them, they're not ornaments as we know them. Although

41:52 they're just like call them ornaments. To call them ornaments rather than like chachkis.

41:58 Yes. I would have loved it if curios and chachkis. Um but I but I actually I will say um that was one of the things that I actually liked which is when she goes into that room and that room is you know like there are these elements that they're playing with that I thought were fun at times where it's like they're in the stone cave and it's all it looks like a stone cave and he's made of stone he's part of the cave blah blah blah and then when she goes through the thing into like an opulent beautiful sitting like castle level sitting room you know it it has like it there there are visual things that I felt like were like, "Oh, this is cool." And then all the ornaments around that you realize, "Oh, these were people or these are people or things, I guess, that he's changed into these ornaments and and I dug that, you know, there's there was stuff in here that I liked. I just wish I understood the why, you know, right."

42:56 Yeah. in service of what in there about the earth's resources and him feeling like they were stolen.

43:06 But that that sort of fell apart for me too because of her argument which was like well the scarecrow it was already Emerald City.

43:13 Yeah. Right. when he started to reign there, right? So, there's a world in which he was also like the the Wizard of Oz was all powerful, but then the gnome knight was just waiting in the wings. Well, no. What's interesting is the Wizard of Oz was not powerful. He was just revealed to be a man. But what then this movie suggests is but don't worry that lesson don't learn it because there is an all powerful bad guy and that is this guy.

43:44 But what I'm saying is like in the world of Oz people were scared of the wizard because he had portrayed himself as the all powerful but yet and with a big crazy face but yet there was a man with a big crazy face. And that's the thing if you're going to make a sequel to the Wizard of Oz and maybe that's where I'm coming down in this whole movie. It's like, why are we doing the same? Why does she have three companions? Why does she swap out the dog for the chicken? Just do a whole different event. Not every journey to Oz needs to go on a a trek to a place and then a uh you know, a coronation at the end. It it it's so interesting because it's like we have and it's different because it's a retelling, but let's just use as an example The Whiz. I like The Wiz

44:25 as another installment in this story's uh evolution because The Whiz is a riff on The Wizard of Oz the movie obviously not the book. So, so like and that is unquestionably incredibly successful and a an amazing movie, you know. So to me to get from there, I'm like, we've now had multiple generations where we have institutionalized the version of these characters and these stories where they sing and it is colorful. Why make this so drab? Why? And I get it. It's the books and you can say that all you want, but you're really I think

45:06 I'll never say it. I'll never say it. No, no. I mean them. I'm sure that was their thing. you know, the them being like, "Well, no, we're taking it back to the books, you know." Um, but then why if the books are so much less uh visually enjoyable, I guess.

45:22 I mean, look, it's a real bait and switch. That's what we're saying here. It's a real bait and switch. Now, put Tony Colette in there, you know? Give me uh the Again, I do want hereditary. I'm all for it.

45:36 I would love an Ari needs to start making the rest of the Elrank Bomb uh books.

45:42 Oh yeah, let's get it. Let's start from the beginning. I want to see it from his perspective the whole way through. But cuz I do think this is a horror movie. It's about a girl who is about to go through very traumatic electroshock therapy. She escapes through her imagination, but which is not actually her imagination. I mean, I think the ending of this movie, and I think that they pulled away from it, is she wakes up and you see the doctor pulling the the the two things away from her head and and she's like she's like, "Where am I?" And he's like, "You're home."

46:14 Yeah. And then they wheel her back out. That's it. That That would be great. That would be great. And what if he was like,

46:22 you know, he said something to the effect of like like, "Do what what do you think about Oz?" And she was like, "What's that?"

46:29 You know what I mean? Because isn't that what they say in the beginning is you won't remember it

46:33 or like they go here's your key back. She's like what is this? Yeah. And then she just starts blood just comes out of her nostril. This one kn Yeah. And she starts to float in the air.

46:44 Okay. But in this movie Return to Oz is the woman is the woman who uh like the head nurse at the institution is she in jail at the end? She in a jail horse carriage

46:59 apparently. So apparently there's a lot of deleted scenes that did not make it into this film. There's like a work print that people have seen and so much so that I I I found them to be like there's a through J of deleted scenes here. Uh but the idea being that she basically was uh there are other prisoners, not prisoners, patients that were like abused and mistreated and kept in the basement.

47:21 You know what this is like? Sucker punch. Oh yeah. Oh interesting. memory of it because there is a world in which the first Oz is she's in a coma from you know the tornado and there's a world in which this one is the entirety of Oz is during her electroshock treatment like it is always a trip inside the mind rather than a real trip into a different world um there's a Jacob's ladder scenario potentially happening here you know like there's just ah Ah boy, I just wish the movie

47:58 H because that would be a fun scary movie, little kid scary movie, you know, um to descend into a world that isn't joyous and full of song, but is nonetheless full of characters that you need to befriend and help them on their journeys. And and you know, Jason, I I you know, and and June, I apologize for saying this right now. I I don't like to get into politics, but I did not like the fact that they elected the Scarecrow as the King of Oz. I felt like where how did we decide that? How did like he was a weak he was a straw man literally literally straw man,

48:34 you know, and we see what happens. We we we got a scarecrow in power and the entire he he he spent all of the emeralds and and the the country fell all of us fell into complete disarray. The infrastructure is out of control. The yellow brick road is all torn up. The There's no infrastructure going on. There's no health wheelers out there to clean it up. You know, this is what I'm saying. Uh

49:00 oh, God. The Wheelers are unchecked. They don't have badges. Oh, the Wheelers. I thought the design of and the execution of those wheelers was cool as hell.

49:12 Very cool. I like that. Those wheelers were incredibly unsettling in a great way in a in a very compelling way.

49:21 Uh they were I think scarier than the monkeys cuz I think that's what they were supposed to be. Now, I will say this monkeys, but they were scarier because they were human

49:30 and they were scarier because they were chaotic in a way that the monkeys seemed ruled by something like the Wheelers had an energy to them that was just so um like just they they seemed completely out of control and

49:46 well, their movements are so foreign. You know, those big long front arms ending in wheels like monkeys flying are just monkeys flying. Everything in the Wizard of Oz kind of went normalish. These guys looked like it it felt like like body horror, you know.

50:04 Yes, exactly. This felt like David Croninberg's return to Oz. Crash. I would like to see Crash with the Wheelers. Now, here's the thing. Um, when Oz turns back, the Wheelers are still Wheelers. I thought the Wheelers would be like normal people, but they are just still Wheelers. They're just nicer Wheelers.

50:22 Because here's the thing. They weren't the Wheel I actually I don't remember where even the Wheelers came from, but I didn't get they had been What do you mean?

50:30 What do you mean? Oh. Oh, the like if we're trying to find like the connection of like the Wheelers are the guys pushing the Gurnie when she's strapped down to the gurnie in the real world.

50:40 Okay. But it didn't seem like they were like the people who were transformed into stone like other members of Emerald City like they had been different things before. The ornaments had all been different thing like the Wheelers just seemed to exist there as Wheelers. Agree.

50:56 Yes. They seemed like a gang, you know, and they and not for nothing they did and I and I know this is go I said they were cool and I really liked them, but they also had a bit of a Starlight Express element to them.

51:07 Oh, big. I mean that felt like they just grabbed them off the set. This was shot in the UK. I bet you they just say, "Guys, can come over here for?"

51:12 Yeah. Yeah. You got You guys can come do this. Too rough. Andrew will give you the day off.

51:18 This is I I mean so much here. Obviously, we have opinions about this movie, but you'd be surprised to find out that there

51:25 Okay. I'm not surprised. I am sure when I was watching this, I was like, I bet there's actually a lot of people

51:31 that I I This is going back many years. Yes. Yes. Going back many years, I dated a woman who this was one of her favorite I'm not surprised from from her childhood like from her era of

51:44 Well, I know why she dated you now because you reminded her of her favorite villain of all the movie.

51:50 Yeah, she was she kept calling me her rock king. No, but she and she did travel with uh skates on her hands and feet.

51:59 And feet. Yeah. Not skates, single wheels. By the way, I will say this. Um you didn't know this. Uh

52:04 I'm sorry. This movie being your favorite movie is a red flag for me. Yeah, that's a red flag.

52:09 All right. Uh, but you know, it's also like that peanut butter solution movie. Sometimes when you get traumatized by a movie very young, it can like seep in because it's like it's almost like a a right of passage, you know, a badge of honor.

52:21 I think and I would wonder and if you're listening to this and you are that generation for whom this movie was right in your sweet spot, I bet this was a good good in quotes

52:33 scary movie for kids that wasn't so scary. You know what I mean? I really wanted to show it to our kids. I was going to suggest that to you tonight, June, but I

52:41 No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Okay. So, now I will say this. Obviously, there are people out there with a different opinion. Is now time for second opinions.

52:56 The movie was a piece of [ __ ] yet this person recommends it. Tell me what is the message. Maybe that art is subjective. I need a second opinion.

53:16 Now, hopefully one of these uh is written by your ex-girlfriend, Jason. Oh, that would be great.

53:22 Uh but I will tell you this much. There are 5,634 reviews for Return to Oz. Wow. And 80% are fivestar reviews.

53:35 Holy [ __ ] Okay, 80%. Now, some of these are written uh by the Wheelers, I think, cuz it's just a lot of a lot of skid marks around here. Um it says this, Sean Perty uh says, "Make your kids watch this. It gave my daughter nightmares. 10 out of 10 approved. Five stars." We got to check on Sean Ply, please. I don't think that that's the way to to parent. Um, this one uh is uh this one is an interesting one because all of these are odd. KLW's title is I enjoy being able to share childhood memories with my children.

54:17 Okay, great. I bought the digital copy instead of the actual DVD only because I didn't want to wait the two days for shipping and I love that it is on our TV, computer, tablets, and phones. We can watch it no matter where we are. Now, I do remember being a little creeped out by some of these characters. That hasn't changed. Luckily, my children aren't creeped out. They can watch this movie multiple times a day. The Wheelers and the Headless Queen are disturbing to me, but it's still a great movie. Just don't overthink it. It doesn't add up. Just go along with it.

54:53 Five stars. I I don't disagree with some of those sentiments. Not five stars, but like um just go along with it is a good because there is stuff in here that's interesting to watch. Just don't if you're trying to find story in here, it's just not there. Um I want to say that, you know, while we have pointed out that there's not much here, a viewer um uh who titled their review most underrated major studio film from 1950. I don't know if that is right writes it. It is about this movie says a strong statement on modern commodification, social alienation and the ethical courage to pierce through it which may appear tantamount to insanity.

55:39 A truly underappreciated classic. Five stars. So saying in in a world in a world where insanity is being creative

55:48 Yeah. which I don't get cuz at the end she's not creative. She's I bet she's just going to work on that [ __ ] farm again. Oh yeah, she can't do and it's I mean it would be so hard the the the gravitational pull for somebody on a farm in Kansas to get away from that in 1930 whatever. I mean impossible.

56:04 It's now I'll tell you this much. The final scene of the film that was cut out is a a minute and a half long scene of Darthy and Toto playing in a field.

56:12 Wow. And then here's my final review uh because I know we have to wrap it up. My final review is simply this from V title. You know, review, you know, if you like it or you don't. So, I don't know why you're reading a review. Maybe you'll like it, maybe you won't. Five stars.

56:29 Wow, that's great. So, there we go. I mean, I guess that's true. It is. Uh, would you I mean, I guess I mean I don't know how it would feel. Would you recommend it? I kind of for just jump in first. Say yes because it's so odd. It's so weird. It's worth a watch. I don't think it flies quickly by, but it is odd. hours as well.

56:51 It's long. It's long. It's long. And A throughJ is cut out, by the way. You should see the amount of scenes that are cut out of this thing.

56:57 That's an editor. That's an editor's movie. He's willing to cut out all those scenes.

57:02 Well, I guess he at a certain point he's he's going to be making like a 4-hour opus over here. But I mean,

57:07 I think that if you can like really go into it putting the Wizard of Oz aside, right? I mean, an almost impossible ask, but I think that there was a lot of parts of this movie that I had fun just watching just because it was Gonzo Nutoo stuff, you know, big and lots of what we haven't talked about obviously is this is an era where 1985 all of these fantastical elements um the pumpkin guy, the Tik Tok, all the these are practical elements. These are puppets. These are there is a lot of cool stuff here to look at and be inside of. Is it a good story? Does it make sense? No. But is it like boring or uninteresting? No, I don't think so. I just think it doesn't hold together as a movie and it really doesn't feel like it's any kind of continuation of what I understand to be the Oz saga, even though I know it is.

58:09 But um so yeah, I would say watch it. But if you can, I think you'll enjoy it more if you just are like, "Oh, I wonder if I can watch a 10-year-old girl be surrounded by horrors for two hours and still keep going."

58:22 Yeah. I bet there's like there's not really an overlap between people who love The Wizard of Oz, and I consider myself one of those people, love the movie, and who love this movie. I think there's probably a lot of people who love the books deeply and like are f huge fans of the series and then love this movie Return to Oz and didn't had issues with Wizard of Oz because it's not really faithful.

58:52 Well, I I bet that's true. And I bet the other thing that's true is I bet there's a lot of people for whom this was a movie that was constantly available to them to watch all the time, anytime, like uh on cable or on Disney Channel or whatever. Like I bet

59:11 was it I mean I have never seen any of these images before. I have seen these characters. I definitely have seen but maybe but that's because I trolled video stores as a kid. Like it was like one of those this was one of those things that like people saw more of this because it was more available and the Wizard of Oz felt like well that's so old that's from olden days you know this is

59:33 and yet this looked so much older to me. Oh yeah. I don't know. I'd be curious to hear from

59:38 Oh actually I'm not Yeah. Yeah. I was going to say I'm not curious to hear from fans and I don't want to hear from fans. So, you know, uh, Scott, you can cut that straight out of the podcast.

59:51 All right. Uh, Jason June. Wow. I I almost just made a huge Yeah, you really opened yourself up to a lot of conversations.

59:58 Wow. I I I stopped myself midway through to be like, "What are you doing? Don't be soious." This is the invitation they've been waiting for.

1:00:05 Oh, I've already said it. People who love this movie, that's a red flag for black.

1:00:10 Yes. You know, and you know, the uh this all I'm going to say is that I hope that this brings you back together with your ex, Jason, that she finally understands that you have some appreciation for what she liked.

1:00:20 Oh, I did. Don't worry. I did text her to say we are doing Return to Oz on the podcast.

1:00:28 Uh Jason June, do you want to promote anything? Let anybody know what is out there, what they should be, uh looking for.

1:00:35 Um uh sure. Percy Jackson uh season 2 is going on right now. Um, a man on the inside. Um, and if you're hearing this and you're in the New York area, I will be on Broadway in the show All Out at the Netherlander Theater. You can get tickets now. Oo, exciting. Exciting. June.

1:00:52 Nothing from me. All right, there you go. And I'll tell people uh I released this little mini documentary where I talk to uh Taylor Swift dads. And it's uh you don't have to be a Taylor Swift fan. You don't have to be a dad. You just have to be a human. If you're a child, you have a child. You've ever been to a concert? I think you might like it. It's 15 minutes. Can check it out. And just to be clear, you mean dads of Taylor Swift fans, not Taylor Swift's dads.

1:01:17 Yes, that is. Yeah, I not I did not get to talk to all of her dads. That is another documentary I'm working on. Uh, and a lot of people say, "Well, you're you're digging. There's only one that we know of." I know there's more. I know there's more.

1:01:28 I'll get to the bottom of it to be done. I will get to the bottom of it. Uh, all right. That's it. If you listen to us on Apple Podcast or Spotify, please rate and review us. Also, make sure you're following us and have automatic downloads turned on. It helps the show and we appreciate it. And a big thank you to our producer Scott Sunonny, Molly Reynolds, and our engineer Casey Holford, as well as our social media manager, Zoe Applebomb. And of course, we'll forever be grateful to the one and only Averil Halley. Thank you everybody for listening. Uh we'll see you next time. Remember, give us your corrections and omissions, but not your opinions.

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "Return to Oz"?

Paul Scheer (Host), Jason Mantzoukas (Host), June Diane Raphael (Host).

What is "Return to Oz" about?

The discussion centers around the 1985 Disney film "Return to Oz," exploring its status as a lesser-known sequel to "The Wizard of Oz." The hosts dissect the film's combination of bizarre elements, memorable characters like the Tik-Tok robot, and its overall impact, all while celebrating its perceived failures and wondering how such a unique project came to be.

What is mentioned in this How Did This Get Made? episode?

18 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Return to Oz, Paul Shear, June Diane Rafield, Jason Manzukas, Walter Merch, Fuzza Balk. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "Return to Oz"?

The episode runs 1 h 2 min; the transcript is about 11,312 words in 220 timestamped sections.

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