Honest Convo about Men Regulating their Emotions & Struggles with Loneliness

What this episode is about

The discussion focuses on men's emotional regulation and their experiences with loneliness, exploring how athletes navigate these challenges while reflecting on personal inspirations from sports icons like Lynn Swann, Barry Sanders, and Michael Jordan. The conversation highlights the importance of emotional expression and connection within the sports community, emphasizing the value of supportive relationships among athletes.

Key takeaways

• Athletes juggle performance pressure and personal lives; social media intensifies the scrutiny—trust issues become the game’s hidden opponent.
• In an era of 24/7 coverage, athletes are more than players; they're human beings haunted by family expectations and mental health challenges.
• Dame Lillard's focus on family over championships reveals that even superstars value personal happiness beyond the public eye.
• Five-star athletes are graded from a young age, programming them to equate self-worth with performance—welcome to the pressure cooker!
• Chris Paul's solitude reflects a broader issue: fame and fortune can't shield athletes from the loneliness of their choices.

Who speaks in this episode?

• Jemele Hill (Host) · 31 min speaking
• Jason Wilson (Guest) · 46 min speaking

What is discussed, and when

1. 0:00 – 10:00: Provider Narrative, Damian Lillard, Barry Sanders, Father Wound
2. 10:00 – 20:00: The Man, the Moment Demands, Battlecry, Emotional Incarceration, Cry Like a Man
3. 20:00 – 30:00: Emotional Incarceration, Yeshua
4. 40:00 – 50:00: Cave of Adullam, Chivalry
5. 50:00 – 1:00:00: Emotional Incarceration, The Man, the Moment Demands, Father Wound, Battlecry
6. 1:10:00 – 1:16:42: The Man, the Moment Demands

Notable quotes from "Honest Convo about Men Regulating their Emotions & Struggles with Loneliness"

• Only 15, J. I'm just Whoa. And so here it is. He's already getting locked into this mindset that he is only a provider. And then you got to understand as well these athletes…

  about Provider Narrative · at 3:15

• That is a part of the f fabric of who they are. For women, I think what is similar, especially for black women, is the strong black woman archetype. That is also it's great to…

  about Strong Black Woman Archetype · at 6:08

• So, your current book, The Man, Be the Man the Moment Demands. This is your third book. you I've read all of them now. Cry Like a Man, Battlecry, and there. And by the way, even.

  about The Man, the Moment Demands · at 15:36

• Characteristic, we've been misled to believe that shivery is pander ing to women, but actually it was a code for medieval knights. And then the whole alpha male myth, which has…

  about Chivalry · at 18:01

• You know to be honest I have to say it was it's my relationship with Yeshua. I cuz my wife told me when I cursed him out for him accusing me of stealing money from him and hung up on him. She was you.

  about Yeshua · at 22:04

• Men of all ages have to deal with. right now as we're recording this, you're in the middle of camp at the cave.

  about Cave of Adullam · at 45:41

• They prioritize priorities more than their own health or more than their own emotional wellness and what they need as men. And I forgot one study recently came out that said…

  about Emotional Wellness · at 52:06

• You know once you start breaking free from emotional incarceration, you become more expressive. I have men who were street guys in Detroit will call me once they start breaking free.

  about Emotional Incarceration · at 54:19

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

• Damian Lillard — Person · Referenced athlete example · 3 mentions · first at 2:58
  Used as an example of prioritizing family presence over championship narratives, illustrating mental health tradeoffs for elite athletes.
  Then you have to deal with the family that, constantly is in need. I remember being at Dame Lillard's camp, Formula Zero, and I was had a moment where I had opportunity to talk…
• Yeshua — Person · Referenced spiritual figure · 1 mention · first at 22:08
  Jason attributes his ability to forgive and reconcile with his father to his relationship with Yeshua, grounding the episode's faith-based lens.
• Chris Paul — Person · Referenced athlete example · 1 mention · first at 4:53
  Used to illustrate mental health strain from family separation during late-career team moves; discussed via host's direct conversation with him.
  Along those same lines about what you said about Dame Lillard, as we're recording this, Chris Paul has agreed to a deal, a one-year deal with the Clippers. And I recently was…
• Barry Sanders — Person · Referenced athlete (sports origin story) · 2 mentions · first at 0:47
  Named as an inspirational athlete that helped trigger Jason's love of sports, used in the opening sports-fandom question.
  Gym shoe and the jogging suits and everything. So definitely the Pittsburgh Steelers of the 70s, Barry Sanders, the greatest running back ever, and Michael Jordan, and of…
• Matt Barnes — Person · Referenced interviewer/podcaster · 1 mention · first at 1:59
  Mentioned as one of the hosts of 'All the Smoke' where Jason had a transformational conversation that generated feedback.
  I'm sure you got a lot of feedback from that. You of course were sitting with two friends of mine, Matt Barnes and Steven Jackson, and that was really such a transformational conversation. Now that you have been in this space of being.
• Steven Jackson — Person · Referenced interviewer/podcaster · 1 mention · first at 2:01
  Mentioned alongside Matt Barnes as part of the 'All the Smoke' conversation that amplified Jason's message.
  That. You of course were sitting with two friends of mine, Matt Barnes and Steven Jackson, and that was really such a transformational conversation. Now that you have been in this space of being around athletes who come to you for.
• Lynn Swan — Person · Referenced athlete (fandom origin) · 1 mention · first at 0:34
  Jason names Lynn Swann as his favorite wide receiver and the reason for his childhood jersey number, anchoring the opening sports question.
  It's a tossup between Geez, I don't I would say Barry Well, no, I have to go back. Lynn Swan was my favorite wide receiver. the entire Pittsburgh Steelers team in the 70s I, I was a big fan of.

Books & papers

• The Man, the Moment Demands — Book · Primary referenced book · 6 mentions · first at 15:39
  Jason's current book structures much of the conversation: provider identity, comprehensive manhood, chivalry, friendship, and father/son dynamics.
• Battlecry — Book · Referenced prior book · 4 mentions · first at 15:43
  Positioned as a blueprint for men to win internal battles before they become external conflicts; referenced for concepts like the 'huddle principle.'
  The Man the Moment Demands. This is your third book. you I've read all of them now. Cry Like a Man, Battlecry, and there. And by the way, even though this book is these books…
• Cry Like a Man — Book · Referenced prior book · 2 mentions · first at 15:43
  Described as Jason's message-driven memoir about escaping emotional incarceration; used to normalize men's emotional expression.
  Well, Cry Like a Man was my messagedriven memoir. It was, my journey of my escape or fighting for my escape from emotional incarceration where I help men understand, right, in.

Companies & orgs

• Cave of Adullam — Company · Core organization discussed · 1 mention · first at 45:45
  Jason's mentoring academy is the practical setting for his ideas: trauma-informed mentoring, character development, and a scalable school model for boys.
• ESPN — Company · Distribution platform reference · 1 mention · first at 1:47
  Mentioned as the likely platform (ESPN+) where the 30 for 30 documentary about the Cave of Adullam can be watched.
  Encourage everybody out there to watch it. I think it's probably available on ESPN plus maybe even Netflix but I think ESPN plus for sure. Mhm.

Concepts & topics

• Emotional Incarceration — Concept · Core framework · 6 mentions · first at 13:03
  Jason's key concept describing self-imposed emotional shutdown in men; used to explain loneliness, repression, and downstream harms like addiction and suicide risk.
• Provider Narrative — Concept · Core topic · 4 mentions · first at 3:21
  The provider identity is framed as honorable but harmful when it becomes a man's sole identity, contributing to emotional repression and suicide risk.
• Father Wound — Concept · Core topic · 3 mentions · first at 3:57
  Father wounds are discussed as a major driver of male depression, identity issues, and relational difficulty; Jason shares reconciliation with his own father.
  Pressure of having to always have to perform at a high level when you may be dealing with a father wound or a mother wound or depression or suicidal thoughts. And so these guys…
• Emotional Wellness — Concept · Core outcome/goal · 1 mention · first at 52:12
  Discussed as something men deprioritize due to responsibilities and conditioning; linked to hang time, peace, and self-maintenance practices.
• Chivalry — Concept · Supporting topic · 2 mentions · first at 18:07
  Discussed as misunderstood today (seen as pandering) and reframed as a historical code/character trait within Jason's 'comprehensive man' model.
• Strong Black Woman Archetype — Concept · Comparative framework · 1 mention · first at 6:13
  The host parallels men's provider narrative with the strong Black woman archetype, describing how both can be socially rewarded yet psychologically harmful.

Places & events

• American Black Film Festival — Event · Contextual event reference · 1 mention · first at 5:00
  Serves as the setting where the host spoke with Chris Paul about mental health and family separation.
  Clippers. And I recently was in conversation with Chris at the American Black Film Festival. And one of the things he talked about from a mental health perspective about how…

Full transcript with timestamps

0:00 Uh Jason, I'm going to start the podcast with a question I ask every guest that appears on politics. And given how you have been able to create a pathway or a presence in the sports space, it feels even more perfect for you. Uh name athlete or a moment that made you love sports.

0:20 Wow. Um so many athletes that I admire. Um um it's a tossup between Geez, I don't I would say Barry Well, no, I have to go back. Lynn Swan was my favorite wide receiver. Um, the the entire Pittsburgh Steelers team in the 70s I, you know, I was a big fan of. Even my number was number 88, Lin Swan, and then of course the great Barry Sanders was an inspiration to me as well. And of course, growing up in the city, the Trea named Jaylen and Chris Weber and others. So yeah, it's uh so many uh a lot of memories you've triggered and can't forget Michael Jordan, you know, the first one that really made, you know, like had his own gym shoe and the the jogging suits and everything. So definitely the Pittsburgh Steelers of the 70s, Barry Sanders, the greatest running back ever, and Michael Jordan, and of course, just being around Detroit athletes, it's just uh that's what triggered my love for sports. Now a

1:24 lot of athletes um do hold you in high regard and you've been able to kind of get into that space. I don't know it feels like something that it was kind of organic. Now uh for those who are not familiar you have a 30 for30 documentary on the cave uh cave of Abdullah that is tremendous by the way. So I highly encourage everybody out there to watch it. I think it's probably available on ESPN plus maybe even Netflix but I think ESPN plus for sure. Mhm.

1:51 Um, you know, I saw the the interview that you did on All the Smoke. Um, and I'm sure you got a lot of feedback from that. You of course were sitting with two friends of mine, Matt Barnes and Steven Jackson,

2:02 and that was really such a transformational conversation. Now that you have been in this space of being around athletes who come to you for counsel or you wind up organically counseling, what are some of the things that you notice from a mental health perspective that athletes go through that most people would be unaware of?

2:23 I think one of the main things athletes deal with that many may not be aware is that they constantly have to keep their guard up. They don't know who who they could trust. Um, again, in this age of social media, you know, unlike with Jordan and Isaiah, the Pistons and, uh, teams of that era, even the Steelers, they didn't have to deal with all of their private lives being in public. And so, being an athlete, you not only have to deal with the pressure of playing the sport and then getting the deals and staying out of trouble, but also everyone getting in your business, and then you have to deal with the family that, you know, constantly is in need. I remember uh being at Dame Lillard's camp, Formula Zero, and I was had a moment where I had opportunity to talk to some of the boys and uh one of the kids, he was so stressed out because he felt that he had to put on for his family. And I said, "Man, no, you got it

3:13 wrong. You're the child." This boy was only 15, J. I'm just like, "Whoa." And so here it is. He's already getting locked into this mindset that he is only a provider. And then you got to understand as well these athletes are graded when they get started. So you're graded, you know, what is it? Five star, four star, three star. So now you're being programmed that your worth is based on your performance. And then I guess I would say also, you know, everyone expects them like since they're making a large sum of money that they're not human. You know, that they don't have trauma that time travels even in their sport. um and you know the pressure of having to always have to perform at a high level when you may be dealing with a father wound or a mother wound or depression or suicidal thoughts. And so these guys aren't they're far from being superheroes just like men in society. And um I would just

4:09 like to see one day where athletes are um not just treated as you know humans or just regular people but also understood that hey you know they have lives as well and uh that's why I'm happy for my brother Dame Lillard that he's able to go back to Portland. You know you hear people say well he won't be able to get a ring. Who cares? his goal is to be with his children and that's why I respect them so much because he's a family man and that was really tough for him not being around them as much as he was used to. And so again, these guys are human and I think that's the biggest challenge. So many people put them on a pedestal like they can't make a mistake. So when they do make a mistake, people condemn them.

4:50 Uh along those same lines about what you said about Dame Lillard, as we're recording this, Chris Paul has agreed to a deal, a one-year deal with the Clippers. And I recently was in conversation with Chris uh at the American Black Film Festival. And one of the things he talked about from a mental health perspective about how hard it's been for him these last five, six years of his career because he's been separated from his family. His family is in Los Angeles. And he did not want to burden them with constantly moving. And so they chose to stay in Los Angeles while he is out here obviously playing a sport that he loves, making a living, providing for his family. But he spoke very candidly about how mentally tough it was for him to

5:31 when you know to go home to an empty house. And so when Dame made that decision, I also recognized the same thing. Like for a lot of fans, they think like, "Oh no, you're supposed to be pursuing a championship constantly." And I get it. These guys make a lot of money. So people say, "Well, I would deal with that if it meant I'm on a $80 million contract." I get it.

5:50 But it it's a little bit more complicated than that. But I want to highlight or at least zone in on something that you talked about because it doesn't just apply to professional athletes. You're talking about the provider um the provider narrative that men have been conditioned to accept and believe that is a part of the f fabric of who they are. For women, I think what is similar, especially for black women, is the strong black woman archetype. That is also it's great to be a strong black woman and be known in that. I know people mean it as a compliment, but it's also killing a lot of us at the same time.

6:25 And I think based off what you have talked about and I read your book, The Man, the moment uh demands, you talk so much in this book about how that provider archetype can be very toxic. I hate to use that word given what what you said about the word toxic.

6:43 Yeah. But you just talked so um eloquently and candidly about how this provider narrative can be to the detriment of men. So can you explain and expound more of that about that provider narrative sometimes being a roadblock for men in terms of their overall health and growth?

7:03 Yeah, being a pro provider for one is an honor. It is actually, you know, as a man of faith, you know, a man who doesn't provide is called an unbeliever. So, it's something as men that we have to do and must do. And you know, I consider it an honor to be able to provide the life that I can for my wife and children. However, the issue becomes is when that becomes our sole identity. That that is all we're here to do. Hand over the check, give me a plate of food so I can eat and go to sleep. Um, and what has happened is that men are realizing now that this really isn't living. And then when you look at studies of how uh we die by suicide almost four times as likely as women and what is it nine out of 10 uh people who live to be a hundred are women and 90% of violent crimes in the United States are done by men. And so when you lock a man in this box of what I call um just being in a box of masculinity, meaning

8:00 all you can do is provide, protect, and build. The rest of his life, the rest of his uh I guess attributes are lost. And I compare it to the pitbull terrier. Um you know, when I grew up, this dog was known for being the aggressor and fighter and protector, which you know, if I had a pit bull terrier still, I would want him to have those attributes. But what we missed is that this breed or bully breeds are called nanny dogs. They were also great family companions. But what happened to this dog when it was only locked in protector mode. It became very unstable and was banned throughout you know many cities in the country. And if not for many uh animal rights group we would have never known that this dog was a comprehensive dog. It was a protector but also a nurturer. And so, you know, when you got a man also who is used to just providing for everyone, he doesn't even understand what it means to

8:55 provide for himself. You know, uh I had an interview recently. They asked for pictures of me, my wife, my family, me working with the kids in the cave. And then they asked for a picture of me hanging with my friends.

9:08 J, I couldn't find one. I was searching and it really was sobering because here it is. I provide. I work. I do everything I can. I serve the community, but where is my own social life? You know, for so long, my identity and I' I've broken free from a lot of bad habits, but this would be my last one. And so, as a man, again, if your whole existence is doing, it's hard for you to be. You know, they say you become a human doing instead of being a human being. And so, I I encourage men to, you know, of course, continue to provide for those that we love, but let's not forget that we too are a part of the family.

9:45 So, a a couple of months ago, actually, I don't think it was a couple months, but more a couple of weeks, um, I posted on my Instagram, it was a black woman who was talking about how she was really concerned about the mental health of black men who had done what you were talking about, who had limited their vision of themselves just into their provision and what they could do for other people. And the response that she got from men was really was really quite alarming because many of them were criticizing her. And what do you know about being a man? I understand that.

10:15 Like I I do. But I thought what she was saying was really helpful. So I just posed the question on my Instagram cuz I was curious is like I wanted to hear specifically from men and definitely from black men is why don't men think about being happy?

10:32 And the responses were really heartbreaking. So many of them kept saying I just want to be at peace. I don't care about being happy. To me, being happy is me being able to provide for my family. I don't have time to think about being happy. And I was like, "Oh my god." Which is totally different than how frankly women are conditioned. We are conditioned maybe too much to think about our own happiness, right? Which is why y'all always like, "Y'all ain't accountable." It's like, I get it.

11:00 It's never enough. Yeah. Like, it's never enough because we're always like, we got to be happy. We got to be happy all the time. So, we're probably overrun with it. Meanwhile, conversely, men are just not conditioned to think that they deserve to be happy. And so many of my black male friends hit me up on the side like, "Sis, I never even thought about that question." So, as someone who operates in this space, can you perhaps provide some

11:23 illumination about like why aren't men conditioned or why do they never think about they their own happiness?

11:31 You know, it's interesting. My wife often says she just wants me happy. And I tell her happiness is like any emotion. It's fleeting. It comes and goes. No emotion is you're never in a constant state of happiness, joy. The only thing that you can possibly maintain is peace. And that becomes possible when you understand that peace is not a place. It has to be within you before it can be around you. And so a lot of men, you know, if you go back again to how we've been conditioned, so from as little boys, we're told big boys don't cry. All right, that right there, when you understand that tears contain stress hormones that get excreted from our bodies when we cry, you've literally told a man to no longer u allow himself to release all that he's dealing with the natural way. So now we have to go to the drugs, the pornography, to the high-risk behavior. And um I mean you I could go on and on. And so happiness

12:31 never became a part of being a man. Then when you become a man, they say no pain no gain and what doesn't kill you can only make you stronger. Where is happiness? Where is expressing any emotion besides being strong, fearless, and bold and a protector? U we've been conditioned that now it's okay to be a stoic emotionless and now to your point about women are now becoming stoics and that's to me you know and and many men agree that's the real danger is when a woman cuts off her heart from the world you know I call it emotional incarceration a self imposed mental imprisonment where a male or boy uh isolates his heart and his cares from the world and because of that no one it feels No one cares. And I tell men, we have to be careful when we say no one because it's not true. Because if I gather a room of 50 men and we all can share transparently about what we dealing with, what we repress, you'll

13:30 see men start opening up. And then you realize, wait a minute, people do care. I'm just around the wrong people. And it's typically you have to be around men. And so to your point, happiness, you know, and matter of fact, when you think of the word, it's all it's attributed to our wives. Happy wife, happy life. And we all know that's a lie. You've been married for how long now?

13:52 It's six years. Yes. Okay. I got 27 in. You you OG in the game. Definitely. So, we already know that's a misleading mantra. So, my wife and I now say happy houses, happy spouses. And so it has to have a um if if we're two halves becoming whole, that means we're one now. So you can't just work on one side of the body. That's like a guy going to the gym only working his upper body and skipping leg day every week. Eventually, if he get in a real fight, I shoot for his legs. I can easily lift him and body slam him. It's the same thing with marriage. You can't neglect the husband always working on the wife and vice versa. You can't neglect the wife always focusing on the husband. And so until we get to the place where we feel valued that it's okay, you know, for us to even, you know, uh, express joy, you know, think about this. You grew up in Detroit. We used to talk about you if you were friendly. We would say, uh, you

14:49 friendly. What you friendly for? You know, so being friendly is meaning I'm happy. So we conditioned. See, if you're happy, that means those emotions are joy and kindness and feeling good. that don't mix well with today's masculinity. And so because of that, we shun those emotions and don't understand like, wait a minute, this is how I can be a comprehensive man. This is how I can tap into the gentleman attribute or characteristic or the nurturing characteristic or truly being a lover outside of sex. But until, you know, as men we we understand and accept that we're more than providers, we're more than just doers, but we're human beings.

15:29 I think it's going to be difficult for all of us to really embrace those moments of happiness and joy when they come.

15:36 So, uh, your current book, The Man, Be the Man the Moment Demands. This is your third book. Uh, you I've read all of them now. Uh, Cry Like a Man, Battlecry, and um, there. And by the way, even though this this this book is these books are designed for men, I think as a woman, it really informs me, especially about how I can be a better partner, a better emotional partner for my husband. So, I would encourage women to read these books as well because I think it's very good information for us. With that being said, how does your current book, Be the Man the Moment Demands, how do you feel like that differs from your previous two?

16:15 Well, um, Cry Like a Man was my messagedriven memoir. It was, uh, my journey of my escape or fighting for my escape from emotional incarceration where I help men understand, right, in my journey. That's why a lot of men love that first book because they see instantly when they read those pages that they're not alone in the way that they feel. Um, battlecry is a introspective blueprint to that teaches men how to wage and win their internal battles before they become external wars. So so often as men we again we're taught to repress our emotions instead of really dealing with them and becoming a verbal process where we can express them and then we wonder why we always lose it you know at the slightest offense or if our wife you know she has we get hit with a barrage of questions and we had a rough day at work we can't pull on the patience or or subduel any emotion that would stop us from meeting

17:11 that moment. So battlecry was that book is teaching men how to wage and win their inner battles. And then the man the moment demands teaches men to how to be the right man in the moment. So many of us have so many regrets because we uh were the wrong man in the moment and it teaches men, you know, that what we've always felt um there was nothing wrong with it, but we didn't know how to truly express it. For instance, like uh being a nurturer for um for instance, if you wanted to be a gardener in my era, you know, you would get clowned in my neighborhood if you in the backyard, you know, I guess um uh pruning some flowers or in the garden like pulling greens or tomatoes, you know, but now if you look at the culinary arts uh profession, it's majority men or even the uh gentleman characteristic, we've been misled to believe that um shivery is pander ing to women, but actually it was a code for

18:09 medieval knights. And then the whole alpha male myth, which has been debunked many times, even by the guy who created it, men find more comfort in hiding behind that facade, because it's harder to deal with the internal struggles that came from being a child, whether it's abuse, the father wound, abandonment, or um being bullied. And so, you know, the man, the moment, the man goes through the 10 characteristics of a comprehensive man and teaches us as men that we're more than providers, but we're also leaders, lovers, we're gentlemen, we're friends. And so many of us, we don't even understand what a friend, a true friend is now. Because what do we say now when someone has a lot of problems or they constantly bothering you? We call them toxic like you said earlier. But we understand that true friends, we don't have to um put a boundary up between one of our friends who are hurting. We make ourselves

19:03 available and tell them the truth. Whatever they're struggling with, we help them push through it. And then of course, the last three characteristics in that book, which are really important, is the husband, the father, and the son. And I close with the son because that's the characteristic that made me a comprehensive man. when I had to learn I was more than masculine when I had to care for my mother who had dementia. Um she didn't need someone who just u would fight bill collectors or you know confront the doctors who just wanted to push psych meds on her. Um she needed a son who would massage her scalp when she was stressed. The son who would foul her nails, who would clean her, who would hug her and caress her. And you know I wasn't that type of guy growing up. I was hyper masculine. But that moment, I refused to allow my mother to leave here without getting the best care that she needed. And the most high made

19:58 it clear until I became a comprehensive man. I couldn't meet that moment or be the man that moment demanded. So it was that chapter, the sun chapter that um all of it, all every chapter you had resonated with me in different ways either when it came to uh allowing me to understand my husband better or thinking about my own emotional incarceration that I have. But the son chapter uh really resonated with me because I was particularly interested in how you repaired or sought to repair the relationship with your father. Um you know I noticed in a lot of interviews that you do they wind up being therapy sessions for the people interviewing you and I came to this like I promise I'm not doing that. I need I need to I need other people to get this information especially men. But I have to say it did make me think about my own very complicated relationship with my father who I have not spoken to in

21:00 probably almost three years for a variety of reasons. And for the first time in that time, it actually made me want to pick up the phone and call him.

21:11 And something that you said in the book about how sometimes the treatment women receive can make us harden our hearts. and my heart feels very hard toward him now

21:22 and I don't know how to make it unh hard but reading your book um it certainly gave me some things to at least think about so I wanted to ask you a little bit more about what was it that allowed you to maybe see your father in a way you hadn't seen him before as he was dealing with I believe it was prostate cancer correct

21:44 prostate cancer and Parkinson's and Parkinson's yes that is correct And so what was it about it that repairing that that unlocked it for you even though your father had not yet been in the place yet where you could understand why he parented you the way that he did?

22:04 You know to be honest um I have to say it was it's my relationship with Yeshua. I cuz my wife told me when I cursed him out for him accusing me of stealing money from him and hung up on him. She was like, you know, Jay, you know, you know, we often say, what would Jesus do? Like literally in this moment, what would he do? And I know forgiveness is not necessarily for the one who offends you. It's for us, you know, and in my relationship with Yahw the most high. And so I had to forgive him. And when my stepmother made that call and said, "Hey, your father's not doing well."

22:40 you know, it wasn't that much of an offense where I would let him die without seeing me. And even though I didn't I didn't I knew he wasn't dying, but when you tell me that this one of the strongest men I ever knew in my life isn't doing well, I had to go visit him. And so, um, I still was, you know, guarded, but when I saw my father barely could move, it broke me. You know, I I sat next to his bed and cried. And from that moment, I vowed to be in his life. I forgave him. And I'm so glad I did because I learned that he was just a product of how he was raised. He was conditioned to be hard, just like my generation, except worse. They didn't have opportunities to express how they feel like we do today. And so I I I chose not to give the the devil two stones, you know, like you're not going to take me and him out. You know, I'm going to make sure I do my part to make sure I reconcile. And I wanted to get

23:44 some information from him, like, you know, why are you this way? What happened? And I learned that he too, like me, was called to be a servant of the most high, but he ran from his. And what was deep after the many visits to the nursing home where he was, I asked him to make, you know, if if I had to make him a promise, what would it be? And out of anything he could have asked me, he said, I want I want you to preach the gospel and I want to hear you. And he was able to do both. And so I always encourage um you know, children of of parents who they've been wounded by like don't let them die without you trying your best to reconcile it. like that weight. You don't want to be the child at the funeral that jumps at the casket.

24:27 I don't know what you and your father went through. Um, and you know, sometimes it seems like it's you can't go back, but um, the first step is always forgiveness, like, hey, you know, I forgive you. I got to let it go for myself. Once I was able to to let go, I was finally able to learn his side of the story. And then I found that I was interpreting a lot. Like it wasn't it wasn't a lot of truths there because I was young and and if I didn't hear from the horse's mouth, you know, I was just interpreting. But when I finally heard where he got his mindset from, why he was so angry, it seemed like perpetually my father had a chip on his shoulder. We were able to finally laugh. And then Jay at 17, no at 37 years old was the first time I heard him say he loved me. And that all happened because I gave him an olive branch and he took it and we were able to reconcile.

25:25 Well, I would say I thought I'd reached that point with my father many, many years ago, like in my early 20s. Um, you know, we were estranged a little bit when I was coming up. He was sort of in and out. He was dealing with a drug problem, which I understood honestly. like that part I was holding no resentment for because my mother also dealt with a substance abuse problem and they dealt with it at at different times. My father they were never married and my father he got clean before she did and so when he was able to be in my life uh it it was fine but it was still the absence of time just does something.

25:59 It's like we couldn't quite connect in the way we probably should have because of that time lapse. But that was okay. I was I was more than open to it. And I guess the problem that I struggled with um after the forgiveness cuz I again fine, wrote him a letter, got it all out, we were good, it was okay. What I struggled with was what I felt like was a lack of effort on his part as I got much older and was grown. It's like, why am I always the one reaching out? Why is it that I'm the one flying you out to see me? why like continually continually continually and it just felt like um the it was imbalanced which was again something I accepted for a long time and then um when my book came out my memoir came out uh in October of 2022 he went to Facebook to say how he felt about the book the book in which I don't think I aired him out at all like in fact I I felt like I was more than gracious Uh but his issue as we had

27:08 one he took the issue to Facebook which was not going to be you know that was something that was not

27:16 uh not not warranted. I didn't think if he had a problem with the book he has my number. He could have called me and told me

27:21 but his problem with the book as we got into a discussion wasn't what I said about him u because it was all factual and again I didn't disparage my father. Um he said his problem was that he wasn't in it enough. And so

27:36 really, I didn't expect I didn't expect that. I know. I didn't either. And so that did not sit right with me.

27:45 Um and there's, you know, been some other things. Uh and it just didn't. And finally I just decided like what am I doing this for? Like why? Um this is not a relationship that I feel like I need to keep carrying. and I just said like I'm kind of done and I don't, you know, I I I have to say I I haven't really felt bad about it, but I also realize and wonder like am I just masking something? Is this unhealthy for me to feel this way, especially toward your own father? Um, and so your book made me sort of think about that like, okay, if something did happen, and oh by the way, something did happen to my father a few years ago. he had to undergo a triple bypass like liter and I was there like I was there and so um you know and at at my wedding like my father walked me down the aisle he barely could cuz he was suffering from some heart issues that I was unaware of but he was still able to do it and it

28:46 was still a moment but there is a selfishness in my father that it's hard for me to deal with and I don't know where that comes from and um I it's just something that I'm struggling with in terms of trying to reestablish the connection.

29:02 Have you considered having like a therapy session with you, him, and a therapist?

29:07 I have not. And the crazy thing is is that my father is actually a licensed therapist.

29:13 Hey, now you're really messing me up. But hey, like I often say, therapists need therapists as well,

29:21 you know. And so your father has trauma and sometimes it's worse because he knows what he needs to do to resolve it. And you know, like sometimes the people who know it all typically don't do. Like my wife is a registered nurse, but she have us suffering around the house. You don't need to go do this. You can make this work cuz she knows what the worst case scenario looks like.

29:42 And so we're I remember one time we both have food poison. She having us both in the house vomiting like it's going to pass. I'm like, "Look, you stay here. I'm going to the ER." And you know who was right next to me? She was in the ER getting IV, you know? So sometimes, you know, the therapist needs a therapist and, you know, I would truly encourage you to do that. Like if my father was still living, I definitely would take that route because there's so much that I didn't get because I wasn't the man that I am now back uh what is it almost 25 years ago. Wow. 2007, I believe. Yeah, he passed in 2007. But prior to that, in the early 2000s, I missed a lot. Like it's so many questions that didn't get answered and I would hate for him to leave here and you didn't reconcile that. Like you think you may feel a certain way now when he's gone and there's no chance to reconcile or get the answers to the questions and

30:39 and to get clarity on the things you never understood are gone. It it it really makes life a lot he heavier, you know. So I would just encourage you to especially since he's a therapist, he understands the importance of um releasing or not repressing what's going on inside and and say, "Hey, Dad, I would like to know your journey. It may even help you just to hear his story like how was it like growing up with grandma and granddad?" You know, what did you go what was your most traumatic moments in your life? And then you can start seeing like, man, okay, I see why this shaped you. Because real talk, a lot of times, you know, even in the cave of Adullum, you know, some people would get mad when I say that I've never seen a father that didn't want to be with this son. And what I mean by that is when I talk to a father who's absent and not being present in their child's life, it's always, it's never that they don't

31:34 love their son and want to be with them. is how they view themselves as their son's father, meaning a failure. I can't provide. I can't pay for certain things. So, they think the the only option is to not be around. But that makes things worse. But because we've been conditioned to believe we're only providers. This is all we can do. If you don't do this, you're nothing. Providing for a child is more than providing money. And so, I just encourage you, my sister, to, you know, take a deep dive with them. You know, again, that's that's that's your father. He has a story. He has a cause and effect. And I I'm almost certain. How old is your dad in this? What?

32:13 Um, so my dad, I believe, uh, cuz his birthday is actually coming up soon. He's going to be 77.

32:19 Oh, yeah. He he doesn't even though he's a therapist, therapy now versus back then is big difference.

32:25 And and I should add to that that his his um training is in therapy with people suffering through substance abuse. Which not to say that that is not

32:36 you know it's it's similar but it's not like psychotherapy per correct it's not psychopy right yes that's

32:44 take that journey take that journey I can see it in your eyes and especially as a daughter that's the first level of your life you don't you don't want to to live uh with that not being reconciled and then the time is crucial as well the scriptures say don't let the sun go down on your wrath you know literally in one day with my wife and and I if we have a disagreement or we're at odds, one of us has to cross the line. That's our saying in our home. Who's going to cross the line? And so, we can't go to bed angry or upset. Even last night, I had said something that, you know, hurt her feelings. You know, I went to use the restroom and I saw she was up reading.

33:24 It's 3:00 in the morning. I got to be up at 5. I prioritize talking with her and letting her know, hey, I'm sorry. That's not how I meant it. and explaining that because I've learned like life is too short to allow an interpretation to ruin a relationship. And so I want to know exactly why you are the way you are. So at least I can process, you know, how to even, you know, have this relationship with you.

33:50 Yeah. I mean, one thing about my father for my memoir, I did this for both of my parents. I interviewed my mom extensively. I interviewed my father as well and asked him about

33:59 um and I encourage people to do this especially when my memoir came out is that find out about who your parents were before you ever came along. That would be very informative. And so he told me a lot of things that it was like okay I get it but how how do you bridge that relationship when there has not been accountability?

34:22 When you say accountability expand on that. What do you mean? Okay. So, this is what I mean. Um, so to your point about finding out about your parents' journey, I did do that with him and it was very informative finding out like why drugs were attractive. Um, I didn't even know he lived out of I knew he lived out of the state when I was conceived. Him and my mom had moved to the Bay Area, but I didn't know he went out of the state. Um, I believe after that, like I had no idea. So he was just telling me about sort of his path and course in life and and it was very interesting. The hard part for me is that um even with the episode that I said about him going to Facebook talking about what he didn't necessarily like.

35:06 Didn't say anything I said was untrue, but just what he didn't like is he didn't see anything wrong with that. I was like, "Let me tell you why that that was problematic that you did that." But it is kind of a a bit of a pattern um if you will where

35:22 he will do these things and not understand why it is an issue. And so it's hard for me to get to the point of understanding your point of view or maybe and even when it comes to talking about why he wasn't there in my life, which I know why. Like it like yes, drugs, he had a heroin addiction. That's a serious issue, right?

35:43 And so like I I totally and completely get that part of it. But even once he was in my life, he was in my life in a way that was just kind of surface level. And I and as I told you, the part about me that was constantly kind of heartbreaking was that I always felt like I was the one making the effort. Like why am I always the one making the effort

36:08 to see you to do this or whatever? Like why do I have to spend money for you to come see me? M

36:15 and so that's the part that I'm struggling with, you know, or even, you know, growing up knowing like my mother and I, we we faced some very volatile situations because of her substance abuse, but going to him was never an option

36:32 at all. Like from a never offered anything and so I'm just trying to understand like what why were you okay with that? Have did you ask him this?

36:45 So I didn't ask him that last question. I realized that when it came out of out of my mouth um is that I never asked him how there is this it's always an incident right and I write about this in my book. So my mother I had a journal growing up and I wrote in the journal some very I was very angry about my mother's drug use which was unfolding in front of my eyes and what that was happening. So I wrote some very unflattering things about her in my journal. I've kept the journal since I was young. My mother found the journal.

37:14 She read the journal because, you know, black parents don't believe in privacy. You already know that,

37:19 right? So, she read the journal and the frankest way I could say it is my mama whooped my ass. And she felt disrespected

37:28 and she put all my stuff in a garbage bag and she dropped me off at my father's job. He worked um off the cast corridor at the Harbor Light Center. It used to be the Harbor Light Center. It's not there anymore. there was a drug rehabilitation place. My father was completely taken off guard about what had happened. So, he took me to my grandparents house. He's calling my mother like, "When you coming to get her?" Blah blah blah blah blah. And all of that. Um, but at no point, not just with that incident, but when me and my mom got evicted and others, like he he was never in a position to really do anything. And he never like the idea of me ever at any point living with him for a week could never have happened. And I can respect that he had financial limitations. But I got to be honest, I don't I don't really get the sense that he even wanted something like that or even like cared about something like

38:23 that. And so I guess that is and especially later in life when he faced financial difficulties, he could come to me and I have been there for him when he has faced some of these difficulties. And just the lopsidedness of that always struck me. It's like I could never depend on this man for anything. But yet he knows anytime he needs to, he could probably call me and ask me for money and has. So and I've given it to him and it's just like I don't get this um at all. It's like it just it just felt very lopsided like I'm the one reaching out. I'm the one doing this. Like I don't get it.

39:00 Well, first to the accountability piece. You know, parents of our generation, well, their generation, they were taught but speak when speak when spoken to. And so my mother, I remember when I started caring for her, when I got married, she would get upset at me when I would hold her responsible for some of her behavior that was unacceptable. And she all she would always say, "But boy, I'm your mama." I said, "Well, no, right now you're Edarie Crumb and you're wrong." I said, "And let's talk through this." And so I would hold my stance there will make her talk like, "Hey, you're you're doing this wrong. You shouldn't treat this person that way. I don't like the way you did this." And I always was respectful because I have to honor her, but at the same time, you know, love without truth is compromised. So I had to let her know in a way that was respectable. And so, but their generation, they weren't taught to um communicate

39:52 with their children in a way like they're human beings. It was simply almost like we were not pets, but you know how you tell your dog to do this and do this and do that and it's no talk back. But now parents are understand like no, I need you to communicate. I need you to express what you're feeling. You know, you would tell a boy to to shut up or don't cry and then you wonder why when he's in the eighth grade he doesn't talk to you about his problems. And so that generation of parenting, which I often call fear-based parenting, it didn't leave room for us as children to really have a relationship with them.

40:27 So, they don't really know what that's like. I believe our generation is the first like parenting generation where we could actually have that type of relationship with our children where we we would treat them like human beings and once they get to that stage where they can actually comprehend what we're saying, you know, I talked to my son like he was an adult when I think Jason was like 10 years old. I started communicating with him. I didn't really like the whole hard hand type of uh discipline that many fathers have. I'm like, "No, I would I should be able to communicate with my son." And and your father at his age, he my father died at 77. He didn't have that capacity. My sister has some of the same issues you have uh with your father that she has with our dad because men back then didn't tap into the nurturing side. They didn't tap into that being very transparent and openly, lovingly. I

41:26 mean, not a lot of men. Some fathers did. And maybe your father was just wired that way. Um, and so that's why I was saying, did you did you ask him like, why does it seem like I have to always pursue you? Why don't you do this? You got to remember, no one's a mind reader. That's one of the most valuable lessons I learned from my psychotherapy sessions is especially in marriage, say what you need instead of just waiting for someone to respond and then now you holding bitterness or you're angry. He's like, "No, I want you to know this is what I feel and this is what I need from this relationship and I would like to know why aren't you giving this to me and is there something I'm doing that's preventing you?" And so I would say give your father the opportunity to write his wrong. Um, and you know, I was in a situation where I didn't have the opportunity to write my wrong and it hurts because I'm not a

42:19 mind readader. I didn't know my actions offended and hurt my son the way they did. I just would I'm I'm real big on correction. Give me an opportunity to write my wrong. And maybe that's what your father needs. And then, you know, and having a a person in the middle like a psychotherapist, preferably someone who can help him dig a little deeper could help both of you flush this out in a way where there's no condemnation but only compassion and communication. So yeah, I mean getting asking would he be willing to have a session with you and say, "Hey, Dad, I don't want to um let any more time lapse between us. Um I want to see you and would you be open for me and you just to talk in front of a counselor or therapist and see what he says." That is a great suggestion and I will give that some serious thought and uh as I said that is why that chapter in your book really resonated with me because

43:16 um it made me for the first time in three years think about well maybe this probably isn't the healthiest way to deal with it

43:24 it's about being like I'm just never talking to you again right so it it feels safe but you know um but I always you know I guess this is my background in uh the combat out of arts, we're trained to see the outcome before it happens because every time you punch, people don't realize every time you punch at someone, you're open to get hit. And so I'm like, okay, is this the best decision long run for me? And I'm losing so much time. And I can't say this guy's name because you know him, he's really popular. But he and I had talked when I was in LA. And he felt really bad about denying his father an opportunity to see him. And before uh when he was considering going to see his dad, his father died. And I told him, it was we had a really beautiful conversation and I said, you know, you would have been there if he wouldn't have done this. That was liberating to him because he was holding on to

44:24 misplaced guilt. He was just only responding to the way his father had treated him or not treated him. So that's what you're doing. But now that you know that, who's going to cross the line? There's the principle again. I refuse to allow the enemy to win. I want to win, Jay. I don't want to lose. I got so much. If I'm telling you, if I could go back, I would record my father the same way I did my mother. Every conversation we would have, I would record and just hear her heart. And and those things I play to this day. And so, don't deny him. But most importantly, sis, don't deny yourself of the love you you long to receive from your father.

45:02 This is that love, you know, would and never give you. I can't give you. Your friends can't give you. That can only come from your father. And so I'm saying, you know, walk through that door and at least exhaust all of your options. So if it doesn't happen, you can say, "Well, I gave it my all."

45:21 I will chew on that. All right, we're done with me. We really are. But but there was a lot of things that you said there that I think tie into many of the things that I want to ask you. Um you do talk a lot about those father and mother wounds that young men men of all ages have to to deal with. Uh right now as we're recording this, you're in the middle of camp at the cave.

45:48 And um for those who are not familiar with the cave, it is a transformational academy where you use sort of mixed martial arts as the hook, so to speak. But it's really much more about character growth, you know, personal growth, character growth, integrity, a lot of those things that young boys, young black boys especially, need. And you had said something earlier about um when you were pointing out the different um the different uh characteristics you lay out in your book, the father, the son, all of those things. One of them that you laid out was about chivalry and about how now that is being positioned in today's age as being, you know, men just pandering or sing for women.

46:29 But it made me wonder about trends overall that you're seeing among our young people. One of them is that is that chivalry. They don't even think about shivery like it's just gone. It's just it's just dead. Um but given that you have such regular interaction with these young boys and men, what are some of the trends you are noticing both positive and negative about how they're dealing with their own mental health

46:52 from this camp? You know, was it was what I love about it? We've gotten boys from the community to come out and the boys that probably wouldn't even get into the cave of adelment. So I get to get, you know, Dexter, Lynwood, all the the boys from around the community and even further out to come in. So I get to see, you know, um, different backgrounds in one facility. So we have 50 boys and one thing I'm noticing that is different is that they're willing to be transparent when there is a safe space. Um, they come, of course, with their guards up and the facade. And I get it.

47:26 You know, you don't know this kid standing next to you. You don't know if he's going to try you. So, you're going to try to act tough the entire time. But when I open up the sessions and at first allow myself to be transparent, showing them my mistakes and the things that happened to me back then is that still time travel and now the boys are really open with their fears. It takes them a moment, but what I'm noticing on the negative side is that they're like hyper anxious and have a like stifling fear of failure. Um, I asked them one class, you know, about the fear of failure piece and, you know, as a parent, it hit me because they said it comes from their parents just constantly yelling at them when they make a mistake. And so it prevents them from even striving or trying to do something that's um a good risk, you know, like trying to uh uh be the best at a certain sport or academically trying to go for that 4.0.

48:23 But if you're constantly getting yelled at for having a 2.5, it's like, man, I know I have to make a mistake to become better, but I don't want to constantly be condemned for trying. And that's what I'm seeing. And then also, not just our boys, I'm starting to see that the majority of their parents are hurting. Like so many parents are not aware or skilled at not only identifying their trauma but going through the process of releasing it. And hence why you know we encourage the parents whose sons are able to get in the cable of vodelum that they go through our trauma informed care training so they can understand how their trauma is being passed down through their children. And so those are the two things I'm seeing. And then again, they're battling a culture that says, you know, again, you know, being shiverous is what you call sing or um that, you know, why are you emotional?

49:20 Why are you crying? Why are you weak? Why are you sad? But I'm noticing that these boys are dealing with great depression when they bottle up their emotions. And when I I showed him a clip um last week of a song Dre Drake has called Fear. It's from an older album. He says, 'I pop bottles because I bottle my emotions. And so when they saw that, they were like, wow. So even in the culture, it's promoted to mask how you feel as a man. But now they're starting to see even in class that like, wow, me sitting at the desk like this, this is sending signals to my brain that I'm tired, I'm lazy, instead of forcing yourself to have correct posture and say, "No, I'mma master this emotion in this moment and lock into my teacher."

50:04 But um overall Jay, the the boys are are are more transparent because they're many of them are at a breaking point. Um but then on the flip side, the fear of failure is really what's concerning me because this is why you have a generation of boys where many are apathetic. uh you know among along those same lines we keep hearing or reading I think Time magazine did a piece about how

50:31 we are in a time where among adult men that this is the loneliest era ever for men

50:38 which is kind of startling to see. Um what have you noticed about or how much do you buy into or the um the male loneliness epidemic? I'm a byproduct of it, you know.

50:54 Okay. I I I help tens of thousands of men and I have a close circle of friends, but all of us uh we're there for each other. We just had to make ourselves two of my friends go get something to eat together. But we think being an individual is isolation and that's the problem. We find strength in camaraderie like the warrior David in the scriptures when he was running from his life from King Saul who was jealous of him. The scriptures say 400 men came to him and he became their leader. These men were in debt, distress and discontented just like many of us today and they came together in this cave which the cave was a place of refuge and they but they exited that cave as mighty men of valor. And so as men when we find ourselves you know you often hear say I I did it on my own. No one does anything on their own, but we've been conditioned to believe that that's how it happens.

51:48 And so, you know, I have to fight. You know, I'm just like a lot of men. You know, I' I'm strong. I know how to provide for myself. And you don't want to be a burden to anyone. And so when you don't when hang time looks like you're a burden or if you have a lot of responsible men like I do in my circle, they prioritize priorities more than their own health or more than their own uh uh emotional wellness and what they need as men. And I forgot one study recently came out that said that men need to increase their hang time at least I think it's twice a week now or something. And that's how bad it is for men. we're we're isolated and when you're isolated with your thoughts and your trauma, no wonder we lead uh in suicide

52:35 as women. Um I think we're complicit in a lot of things that we we didn't create the patriarchy for sure, but we certainly carry the water for it. And

52:47 how uh for you know women be it in relationships with you know husbands, boyfriends or even in dealing with your children or dealing whatever man in your life. How can we be less complicit in the emotional incarceration of men?

53:05 When you say and be emotional incarceration of men, what do you mean by that? Meaning that like you describe emotional convers in incarceration as you know men who feel like they have to suppress everything that they have to be stoic that they have to live up to this sort of superhero perception.

53:20 Women certainly contribute to that because we make you feel Yeah. We contribute because we make men feel like that's the only value that you can provide.

53:29 Uh hence why I hate this 50-50 conversation so much. But that's that's a story for another day.

53:35 Yes. Yes, but like you know a lot of we're not responsible for men's behavior. However,

53:42 men do take their cues from what will attract us. And I I hear not maybe among my own friends, but you see it across social media of women sort of, you know, not making men feel safe about expressing these emotions. So that's why I asked like how can we be more

54:02 less complicit in the emotional incarceration and men feeling like they don't have anywhere to turn to or go.

54:09 Well, one thing I I would advise I guess both men and women I talk to the to men now who are listening or watching your wife is not your counselor or therapist. You know once you start breaking free from emotional incarceration, you become more expressive. Uh, I have men who were street guys in Detroit will call me once they start breaking free and start asking me, you know, they'll say, "Jay, man, you know, after reading your book, I'm finding myself crying a lot more." And I'm like, "What? What do you mean?" He said, "Man, I watch a a movie with my son and I'm tearing up."

54:43 And I just say, "Brother, you just backed up like a damn, you know, and finally you have an opportunity to release and it's going to take you some years." When I first started breaking free from emotional incarceration, I was I had held so much in so much trauma from losing, you know, intergenerational trauma from my grandfather's lynching to losing two brothers to murder to my best friend dropping dead of a heart attack. I held all of that in. And so when I had opportunities to finally express it, it would just flow out of me. And so once I was able to now once I had released enough to where I could become emotionally stable, I had made the mistake early on believing that Nicole, my wife, was my counselor and therapist.

55:23 And that's not how that works. Meaning, I appreciate her being there for me and supporting me, but I have to always be wise enough to read the room or what I call the huddle principle in my book, Battlecry. Um, if you're a quarterback and you you go to the huddle and you're the leader and you feel like you're going to lose the game, you can't let those in the huddle know that. You got to say, "Hey, this is the play we called now. We going to run it. Let's go. Let's fight." And then let's break. Boom. And you go and you play the game. As a husband, when you come home, you got to evaluate. How is your wife feeling?

55:57 What's the mood of the home? Where are the children at? And you can't share certain things. And that's where the camaraderie of brothers come. Now, far as to the wife, what does she have to bring to the table to help her man become a comprehensive man? The first thing I ask is don't try to be his wife mom. Basically, his wife and his mother. Like, I lost my mom and there's no love ever I would ever receive like the one I love I got from my mother. My wife is a strong second and she still can't touch the love I got for my mother. What I mean is that. So Nicole knows now is that she is to nurture me in the right moments. And that happens when the wife becomes a great listener. Instead of listening to respond, she listens to my heart to say, "Oh, this is heavy for him." And then she'll kindly either tap me on my head, which is a signal for me to lay into her lap. Like we'll see in the black community, you'll see the

56:57 picture of the pharaoh laying in the lap of his queen. It's similar to that. But she never forces the moment. You know, a lot as the mother in you, the nurture in you, if you see your husband is hurting or disappointment or disappointed, you want to step in and be that mom. But you can't. You're his wife. And so when he allows you that space, when he gives you that room, listen, and when you see the sign or the opportunity, take it and comfort him through those uh moments. And that's the most valuable thing I've seen with my wife is that she she knows now not to I guess try to be my coach and say you got you can keep pushing through. She'll say wow Jay that was tough. I don't know how you endured that. See as men we we we're used to the pep talks. We're used to the man up and keep going. It's very rare we get from women or even sometimes our friends that yo man I don't even know how you dealing with that. like

57:55 acknowledge that what I'm carrying is heavy. And that's why men feel so unappreciated by the women in their lives. It's like, yeah, you acknowledge it on holidays, but we don't care about that. We would like the acknowledgement throughout the year. Like, hey, I appreciate you doing what you do. I know it's hard considering the way you treated at your job, the way you're treated in society, the way you got to move past your own father womb because everything that he told you was negative. And so that's what I would tell women. First, listen with intent.

58:26 Don't don't listen to speak. Listen to hear his heart or listen to respond. Second, look for the cues to enter. Look where he's long. Look for what he's longing for. And once you know your husband, you'll be able to identify him and then move there. And then, you know, lastly, don't try to coach him. instead identify what he's dealing with and say, "Wow, it really takes a strong man to do all that you're doing and I truly appreciate it." That affirmation from my wives is what, you know, makes us feel appreciated and keep going. And don't wait till Father's Day or birthday to do that. Do it once a week even, you know, and acknowledge us when it's not a celebration. just say, "Hey, I like how you you know, you you you you fix the garage today, or you constantly you're never late for work. You're constantly providing. The kids need this. I need uh the car fixed or whatever. You're always there." And that's what keeps a man

59:23 encouraged, and that's what helps us feel appreciated. Um, and also I think you said this in in uh be the man the moment demands is that we shouldn't always listen and have a readym made solution.

59:37 Yes. Right. That's what I mean by don't coach them by don't coach them. Okay. All right. Cuz I was like I remember that very much so. And by the way, that works great with women too cuz sometimes we just want to vent. We don't need

59:47 I I made that mistake with Nicole a few times where she's not looking for me to be this teacher. She just needs her husband to hear her heart, you know. And um that's true. I called that concept don't change the weather because a lot of times you care, you say, "Be it's going to be all right. We're going to make it." But it dismisses that right now it's not okay.

1:00:07 And so as men, we're we're fixers. We're strategists. We like the hard work and pushing through. But we don't like our emotions or the situation being lessened than what it really is. If it's raining, let me sit in this for a moment so that I can come out of it. So I can figure out what's going on. Men don't like being pacified, you know. Tell me what it is, let it be what it is so I can figure it out and fight through this.

1:00:33 Um, very good advice. Um, and what would be what would be your advice for men? Uh, because I I have uh I think women, we notice this too sometimes when when y'all get together, we're hearing the sort of report of back or even when I I've seen it among my husband and his friends. um is that there's a lot of surface level. There's a lot of like, you know, they might sit up there and argue about who is the best wide receiver from 1987 for about 30 minutes. Okay? And there's there's a place for that. And that in itself is probably therapy, like being able to

1:01:08 to have those kind of frivolous conversations that just are a sense of relief. but among their own friendship groups, especially seeing how silent and stoic and men don't always tell you, you know, your problems. Cuz sometimes when my my husband will tell me a situation a friend is going through, he's never specific about who it is because he doesn't want to divulge any confidences.

1:01:30 But I'm like, well, did you ask him this and did you ask him how he felt about this? And and he'll be like, no. I'm like, what are we doing? Right.

1:01:36 Yeah. Yes. So, what is your advice to men among their own friendship groups, how they can get uh other men, you know, their friends to open up more?

1:01:48 Well, first you got to, you know, be what they don't see. You know, I'm always the first example whenever there's a a gathering of men and I have to lead the group, you know, um not just, you know, hear what's going on inside of them. Ask them the deeper questions. Ask them what's going on. what's how are you how does this make you feel? Has this ever taken you to a dark place? And give them the floor and don't rush them. Um I think it's good like you were saying to have those surface level conversations. Those are what we call starters. But what men need is actually real introspective work or conversations where they can dive deep and and know that their brothers are truly with them. And um I would tell brothers to you know again be what they didn't get. you know, be quick to listen and slow to speak and understand that, you know, you're not the only one with problems. And that's I had to learn that

1:02:41 early on as a leader. You know, if if a lot of people are looking to you, they're making sure your problems are taken care of. But what about all the other men that you're teamed up with to basically or to accomplish a mission? They get left out. And so, I make sure that if my problems are addressed, I want to address every man that's in my circle. I'm really more intentional now with the young men that I disciple. Ask them about what's going on in their lives. Let them talk and I don't limit the time and then give them sound advice but almost give them the opportunity to figure out the process as well.

1:03:18 So, what does self-care look like for you now? Um, I have a concept I created called the four Rs, which is reflect, release, reset, and rest. Um, this is a process I do every day. Um, I've done it once during this interview. Uh, when I have something to think about, I reflect and release it real quick so I can stay present in this moment. So, I reflect on whatever is troubling troubling me that uh may not have me present and then I release it so that I can reset and then get in a state of rest, not sleep, but in a state where I'm calm throughout my day. And this is how I'm able to maintain a peace or have the peace you could have in the Maldes just riding your bike down Seven Mile. And that's what's what's really crucial for me. And this is why I'm thankful that we piloted the summer camp for the boys because for the first time we get to keep them for eight hours during the time when school

1:04:18 would influence them, their friends. We're there. We're able to check it immediately and then help them understand the moment and how to process their emotions in it and to teach them the four hours like, "Okay, cool. Reflect on what happened. He was trying to bully you. All right, we rec we reconcile now. Let's release it so that we can reset." And now we're in a state of rest where we can move throughout this day in peace. And so that's where I'm at now. That's what uh self-care looks for me or I call self-maintenance in my book because when you say care or self-love as a man we like what is that?

1:04:52 That's like happiness. What are you talking about? We don't know what that feel like. What are you talking about? You say maintenance a man instantly knows what you mean. Take care of something. Stay on top of it. And I tell men, you don't want to die as a work of course. You want to be you want to die and be honored as a waror. A workhorse. That's all he does is work. A waror works, fights, and is maintained because you never know when that battle is coming. And so I encourage men to be war horses and not just workh horses. And the way you can maintain that is by practicing the four hours, not allowing a day to get by where you haven't reflect on either something that's hurting you or something you've done to hurt someone else. And then you may need to practice another R which I call retain because you don't want to release something that may have offended your wife or your children. You want to

1:05:43 retain that and then revisit it which is another R which I didn't plan to say but you want to revisit it and then now once you reconcile which is another R which I'm not trying to do but then you you can you can finally reset and then you can rest. Um, and when men learn that power of being able to practice what I call shellac meditation, which is based in the four Rs in the moment, even in fighting, even in sitting still, even in the boardroom, even during the game, when I work with athletes, stop wearing your headphones. Why you got headphones on in the pregame warm-up? You can't wear them during the game. You're training your brain that this is the only way you can lock in and focus. And in in 20 minutes, you're about to be in a lousy loud environment. And so understanding how to be in a state of rest even when it's chaotic is a great power. And as men, we always desire peace, but we got to do the inner work

1:06:39 to be able to maintain it wherever we are. Uh I know that you see it, but whenever you post a clip for the work that you're doing in the cave or just really anything that you're speaking uh speaking on and especially as it pertains to young boys, always in the comments, man, I wish you had a program like that here. man, I wish they had this in this city or that city or this place. How much thought have you given to expanding what you do in other locations?

1:07:06 Um, it's always on my heart. Um, we, again, we I think we have about 820 boys on the wait list right now. Um, which is actually, you know, grieves my spirit because by the time we can get to the majority of them, they aged out of the right of passage. So this is why we started the cave camp or the cave summer camp this year as a pilot for a school. That's why I call it an academy. It was something that I had the foresight to see like, wait a minute, if we could actually become the culture, the school culture. Now the parents have to be in touch with us. Now we can deal with bullying. We can deal with fear. We can deal with everything as they go through their lives. Now we can truly train change the boys. And so this is a pilot for a school we hope to launch soon um where we'll start um I think it's grades we say yes sixth through 8th grade start at the sixth grade maybe with 30 students and then build on to the next

1:08:03 grades. Um, and so that's the only scalable model I could see where because you can do just the cave alone and it works, but what we've discovered over 20 years doing it now is that if we're not involved in the area where they spend the most time, it's very hard to really help them transform their or renew their minds to how they see life. And so that's our desire is to take this pilot and then to create a middle school for boys, a cave of adelum academy where instead of physical education they'll do the cave of adelum training and they will have their core subjects as well as well as um after school programming like dining etiquette, grooming etiquette, workforce development, financial literacy and other uh life skills or workforce development.

1:08:51 And I was very happy that in your book you covered the etiquette the etiquette part. Uh, yeah, that is important. Um, and especially as it relates to encouraging the young men to to stop wearing their hoodies like everywhere,

1:09:07 especially when it's 90 degree weather. What are you guys doing? And and the key thing again tying to the principle of why. We talked about it this morning. I call it the hood mentality because

1:09:17 boys had their hoods on. Of course, we tell them to take them off, but I ask them why and what the hood represents. So I call it a portable cave

1:09:25 because when a kid puts a hood on inside, he just doesn't want to be bothered. You know, you never know what a child has dealt with in the car ride just going to school. And so we give him that space, but we always make him dig deep to why are you doing what you do? When you teach the kid why why he won't he won't fail in life as often because then he start being a principle-based man. Uh, and finally, I want to ask you on a serious note before we get to the messy question that ends every podcast is there has been um there's been a lot of conversation around black male mentorship and what that looks like in today's time and there have been some concerns that there is a lack of black male mentorship from maybe I guess I would say our generation um and maybe the a little bit older from where you are. What do you see from that perspective? Like do you feel like there is a lack? Do you do you

1:10:24 sense any reluctance among the men of you know maybe your generation before or beneath that to get involved in mentoring young black boys?

1:10:34 I would say yes that I I I don't see as many men volunteering to be mentors as um it was when we first started our nonprofit in 2003. And I think that's because um more men now I believe men we always have been uh experts at repressing or suppressing how we feel just to to keep things going like you know uh uh what's the saying they say uh uh I can't even think of but basically you you just continue to push through no matter what's going on. We've reached a place now where men are struggling to push through. And as a result of that, um it's hard for you to pour out of a not just an empty cup, but a cup that's empty and cracked. And so so many good men, good men with jobs have a lot to pour out. Their cups are empty because their entire lives is pouring. And so they have really not they have something to give, but they have nothing to give. And so until we can get to the place where these men are

1:11:41 being poured back into and their cup isn't always like this, we're going to constantly see the lack of mentors in our community. And you know, Frederick Douglas said, "It's easier to raise children than it is to repair broken men." It's true, but we should never leave men broken. And that's where I feel that we're failing uh the village or the tribe is that, you know, now that we're all awakening to the importance of our identity is not in what we do. Our identity as black people is not in our trauma. What we've been through is but where we're going. And for me is me being a servant of the most high. Who I am in his son.

1:12:18 We have to find and seek the healing that we need so that the next generation coming behind us won't be the same. is it's almost like in construction when I used to lay tile. What good is it to tear up a rotted subfloor if you're not going to put a new one down? And that's what's happening. We've opened the wounds. We see what's happening. But now, who's going to help bring the healing and actually cover this area in our community? You know, we have more resources than ever, but why don't we see a lot of transformation? Because we're planting seeds on ground that's not fertile. the hearts and the minds have been wounded and traumati traumatized so much that it's hard to receive the seed and so the seed never grows

1:13:03 and that's where I believe that we are in as a community which is why I'm often asked by the fathers in the cave and men that see me when I'm out and about they said when can you do the cave of adullum for men because we need it and that's my next like step in my calling is to create a gathering space for men where they get the same opportunities as their son did on those mats where they can have moments where they're transparent, emotionally open, and deal with their fears and anxieties and their trauma and then break free and become comprehensive men of the most high.

1:13:40 All right. Well, Jason, I want to thank you for spending some time with me uh because I know your time is extremely valuable. You have a lot going on, especially this summer. Uh but before we end the podcast, I will ask what is the messy question? This is where we make some headlines for no reason at all. Uh but uh it's actually not as messy as I normally try to take it. But I'll ask you this. Between the three books uh you have written um you have you know each of them have had a different thing. I I read this so you can you know clarify whether or not this is true.

1:14:16 Is be the man the moment demands your last book of this series? Yes. As far as manhood, far as if they don't, if they don't have it by now, they never will get it. Like I gave y'all all the principles. I've

1:14:29 exhausted it, you know. But I still teach on it. Yes. My next book will actually be for about boys, raising boys in this generation.

1:14:39 Okay. And it'll be written for parents, teachers caregivers anyone that works with boys or have sons that uh want to know the way that has worked for us in the cave of adullum. I'm I will empty my cup in that book and make sure. Now that may be my last book all together. I don't know. Writing Jay is no joke.

1:15:02 Oh, I know. Writing a book is draining is especially if you with a a one of the top publishers. You know how it is with the copy edit phases and all that. It's it's it's a lot and writing the man the moment demands was draining. But I'm finished with the manhood series. They got three books to really unpack what they're dealing with. But now let's teach men how to be fathers and help moms become the mothers that they truly desire to be. You know, and so many mothers are um I had one mother recently in a counseling session with her son and she just wept in the office because she had to become both dad and mom and she can't be dad. She just can't. And to give a mother an opportunity to just be mom is liberating for them. And so the cave we operate as that father figure.

1:15:54 And then what's beautiful is when the son's father comes, we can actually work with him.

1:16:01 And um it's just truly a powerful um I guess uh moment in time that I'm thankful that I'm a part of.

1:16:09 So maybe one more book. Yes. One more. It's going to be one more. My publisher like, "Oh, you got one more." And but this one here, I wish I could share the title. I can't. But it's really powerful. So imagine me taking you into the world of a boy,

1:16:25 what he deals with, what he faces, so that your heart will become tender and then give you the tools needed to help him transform from where he is into becoming a comprehensive man.

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "Honest Convo about Men Regulating their Emotions & Struggles with Loneliness"?

Jemele Hill (Host), Jason Wilson (Guest).

What is "Honest Convo about Men Regulating their Emotions & Struggles with Loneliness" about?

The discussion focuses on men's emotional regulation and their experiences with loneliness, exploring how athletes navigate these challenges while reflecting on personal inspirations from sports icons like Lynn Swann, Barry Sanders, and Michael Jordan. The conversation highlights the importance of emotional expression and connection within the sports community, emphasizing the value of…

What is mentioned in this Jemele Hill episode?

19 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Cave of Adullam, Emotional Incarceration, The Man, the Moment Demands, Provider Narrative, Father Wound, Battlecry. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "Honest Convo about Men Regulating their Emotions & Struggles with Loneliness"?

The episode runs 1 h 17 min; the transcript is about 14,558 words in 148 timestamped sections.

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