Side Stories: CTE Stories w/ Dr. Chris Nowinski

What is discussed, and when

1. 0:00 – 10:00: Concussion, Concussion Legacy Foundation, Harvard University, Aaron Hernandez
2. 10:00 – 20:00: Aaron Hernandez, Harvard University, Mick Foley, Rally House
3. 20:00 – 30:00: Concussion, Dynamite Kid, Harley Race, Hulk Hogan
4. 30:00 – 40:00: Andre Waters, Bank CTE, Chip Collins, Concussion
5. 40:00 – 50:00: Aaron Hernandez, Concussion, Dartmouth, Play flag until 14
6. 50:00 – 1:00:00: Aaron Hernandez, Boston University, Brian Cox, Concussion
7. 1:00:00 – 1:10:00: Concussion, Concussion Legacy Foundation, Boston University, Fred West
8. 1:10:00 – 1:11:58: Concussion, Concussion Legacy Foundation, Holden McNeely, Jake Young

Notable quotes from "Side Stories: CTE Stories w/ Dr. Chris Nowinski"

• I am I've donated my brain to the Concussion Legacy Foundation. So, you just given in installments?

  about Concussion · at 3:43

• Interview him. It was like I was the whole time because he's also he's a he was a football player at Harvard. He was a wrestler in WWE and then he eventually had too many…

  about Harvard University · at 4:30

• You've worked extensively with Dr. Anne McKe at Boston University and the Unite Brain Bank. You've played football at Harvard University, and you were a wrestler at WWE, Chris Harvard, the Ivy League snob. Welcome to Last Podcast on.

  about Boston University · at 6:24

• Wrestling at WWE you got a couple injuries once from Bubba Ray Dudley big mean looking dude actually from big friendly dude looking friendly. He looks friendly. That's what but…

  about Bubba Ray Dudley · at 7:17

• Will say that the only note I'll give to teach about the science is that we think CT is mostly caused by rotational acceleration in the sense that when we see the lesions in the brain at the bottoms your surface of your brain your cortex.

  about Rotational acceleration · at 23:01

• That was before you. But then you went and then you went to see Andre Waters family and well I to get his brain I had to call the medical examiner and then Yeah. then called his mom. Eventually met her.

  about Andre Waters · at 32:57

• We covered it in our episode and I'm I'm sorry. Wyatt Bramwell, 18 years old.

  about Wyatt Bramwell · at 40:06

• Decent for linear. so no, the helmet, the helmet stuff in the guardian cap is all a distraction. And USA Today just exposed that the NFL has been not been fully transparent about how effective Guardian caps are.

  about Guardian Cap · at 59:53

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

• Dr. Chris Nowinski — Person · 8 mentions
• Chris Benoit — Person · 7 mentions
• Aaron Hernandez — Person · 6 mentions · first at 4:15
  But I've So, the interview I'm about to do is with Dr. Chris Noitzky. he is, if you remember from the Aaron Hernandez series, he is the guy who collects the brains. He's the…
• Christopher Nowinski — Person · 6 mentions
• Dr. Ann McKee — Person · 5 mentions
• Andre Waters — Person · 2 mentions · first at 32:59
• Wyatt Bramwell — Person · 2 mentions · first at 40:09
• Dr. Joseph Maroon — Person · 2 mentions
• Dr. Robert Cantu — Person · 2 mentions
• Gary Ridgway — Person · 2 mentions
• Bubba Ray Dudley — Person · 1 mention · first at 7:22
• Mick Foley — Person · 1 mention · first at 16:24
  Just was Mick Foley talking about this at our gala because he spoke for us.
• Dynamite Kid — Person · 1 mention · first at 22:45
  It was Harley Race, the Dynamite Kid, and Bam Bigalow. all yeah mean I know Dynamo kids died young Harley Race I think had dementia when he died so I mean it you know I.
• Harley Race — Person · 1 mention · first at 22:45
  It was Harley Race, the Dynamite Kid, and Bam Bigalow. all yeah mean I know Dynamo kids died young Harley Race I think had dementia when he died so I mean it you know I.
• Nick Dinsmore — Person · 1 mention · first at 24:05
  I didn't have enough interactions to see the change, but I will tell you like I just saw an interview with Nick Dinsmore talking about how he saw the change.
• Hulk Hogan — Person · 1 mention · first at 25:23
  I had a specific question about Hulk Hogan, but you can't answer. But I would think that he changed a lot. I think in my lifetime he's he was a different dude by the end of his life. And so I think.
• Mike Webster — Person · 1 mention · first at 32:52
  Some of the first people involved in this. You were able to get obviously there was Mike Webster and Terry Long were the first two people. and then that was before me. Yeah.
• Terry Long — Person · 1 mention · first at 32:52
  Some of the first people involved in this. You were able to get obviously there was Mike Webster and Terry Long were the first two people. and then that was before me. Yeah.
• Shane Tamura — Person · 1 mention · first at 34:49
  Which is a strange thing to tell the a mother who lost her son, but they had to do it. Did you work on Shane Tamura?
• Chip Collins — Person · 1 mention · first at 36:40
  Diagnose CT through the blood and we're still enrolling for bank CTE if you want to Google it. the he Chip Collins he was his high school captain played eight seasons of…
• Dr. Danny Danley — Person · 1 mention · first at 50:06
  Touched on in the documentary was about gambling addiction and I talked to Dr. Danny Danley. She's a gambling counselor in Reno and she said in her studies though there's no…
• Brian Cox — Person · 1 mention · first at 50:32
  Stuff like that? Football players obviously they have they love gambling. I watched Brian Cox spend a lot of money on a cruise ship once.
• Grant Gordon — Person · 1 mention · first at 51:12
  [ __ ] yes. Yes. Shout out to Grant Gordon. He did a lot of work. He's also a big fan of yours. Oh, my buddy Grant who helped me write the CTE stuff. he wanted me to ask what's your favorite.
• Steve Young — Person · 1 mention · first at 56:37
  Trying to sort of cover up the concussion issue by when Aman and Steve Young had to retire they started a concussion committee and then that committee designed research that I figured out when I wrote my book could only find.
• The Undertaker — Person · 1 mention · first at 1:02:41
  One of the videos I show is Goldberg doing an interview about how this match he had with the Undertaker in Saudi Arabia. He head like to headbutt the locker before he went out to his match.
• Robert Card — Person · 1 mention · first at 1:06:46
  Yes. In fact, a lot of the mass shooters we've reached out to, including like we got Robert Card's brain, who killed 17 in Lewon, Maine, who was a grenade instructor in National Guard.
• Richard Ramirez — Person · 1 mention · first at 1:07:19
  To pass away. They're saying he's like days from death. So that's that's one to keep on the books. But yeah, Richard Ramirez, David Burkowitz, John Wayne Gasey, Martin Bryan…
• Fred West — Person · 1 mention · first at 1:07:22
  To keep on the books. But yeah, Richard Ramirez, David Burkowitz, John Wayne Gasey, Martin Bryan, Fred West, Craft, Rolling Pictton, the Hillside Strangler, Starkweather, these guys.
• Steve James — Person · 1 mention · first at 1:08:22
  Yeah. Steve James. Legend is awesome.
• Holden McNeely — Person · 1 mention · first at 1:11:13
  January 4th, Oxnard, California, Levity Live. It's going to be me, Karolina Hidelgo, Holden McNeely, Jake Young, and Julia Johns. It's going to be a [ __ ] blast. Come hang out with me. Start your new year off right.
• Jake Young — Person · 1 mention · first at 1:11:13
  January 4th, Oxnard, California, Levity Live. It's going to be me, Karolina Hidelgo, Holden McNeely, Jake Young, and Julia Johns. It's going to be a [ __ ] blast. Come hang out with me. Start your new year off right.
• AW Edge — Person · 1 mention
• Bam Bam Bigelow — Person · 1 mention
• Charles Starkweather — Person · 1 mention
• David Berkowitz — Person · 1 mention
• Jim "The Anvil" Neidhart — Person · 1 mention
• Karolina Hidalgo — Person · 1 mention
• Natalya — Person · 1 mention
• Paul Tagliabue — Person · 1 mention
• Robert Pickton — Person · 1 mention

Books & papers

• Head Games — Book · 2 mentions · first at 6:11
  You've had multiple TED talks on the subject. You wrote the book Head Games, which led to the documentary the same title. you've organized and formed the Concussion Legacy Foundation, a brain donation registry with Dr. Cantou.

Companies & orgs

• NFL — Company · 26 mentions
• Concussion Legacy Foundation — Company · 6 mentions · first at 3:48
  I am I've donated my brain to the Concussion Legacy Foundation. So, you just given in installments?
• WWE — Company · 5 mentions
• Harvard University — Company · 3 mentions · first at 4:34
• Boston University — Company · 3 mentions · first at 6:26
• UNITE Brain Bank — Company · 2 mentions · first at 6:26
  You've worked extensively with Dr. Anne McKe at Boston University and the Unite Brain Bank. You've played football at Harvard University, and you were a wrestler at WWE, Chris Harvard, the Ivy League snob. Welcome to Last Podcast on.
• Rally House — Company · 1 mention · first at 11:20
  Beer sales and stuff like that but like sports bars merchandise there's like rally house is like a whole it's a it's a it's across the nation now as a sports or everyone's got jerseys.
• New York City Medical Examiner's Office — Company · 1 mention · first at 35:02
  That was an organization. So that was the New York City Medical Examiner's Office.
• Dartmouth — Company · 1 mention · first at 49:24
  Captain of the heart football team, three years in the NFL, NBA from Dartmouth, investment guy, doing amazing until alcohol took over and within 5 years he was dead and his…
• AEW — Company · 1 mention
• Delta Air Lines — Company · 1 mention
• ECW — Company · 1 mention
• FedEx — Company · 1 mention
• Heartland Wrestling Association — Company · 1 mention
• TED — Company · 1 mention
• UFC — Company · 1 mention
• University of Missouri — Company · 1 mention

Products & tech

• Guardian Cap — Product · 2 mentions · first at 59:57
• Zepbound — Product · 1 mention · first at 47:19
  Losing weight. I've actually I'll tell you I haven't told anybody. I've taken GLPS. I'm taking Zepbound.
• Yeti — Product · 1 mention

Concepts & topics

• CTE (Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy) — Concept · 48 mentions
• Concussion — Concept · 13 mentions · first at 3:48
• Rotational acceleration — Concept · 2 mentions · first at 23:06
• post-concussion syndrome — Concept · 2 mentions
• Royal Rumble — Concept · 1 mention · first at 7:46
  It was Edge fell on you off of the top rope or jumped on you off the top rope during a Royal Rumble and that was a major concussion as well. And now you have permanent postconussion syndrome.
• REM behavior disorder — Concept · 1 mention · first at 9:07
  The sleep disorder is actually finally quite rare. I developed REM behavior disorder which means I acted out my dreams. And at the beginning like it was like I was jumping off of beds and I was detach you know choke you putting people.
• Bank CTE — Concept · 1 mention · first at 36:30
  How biased our sample is. But we also just had our first brain donor die. It was part of the bank CTE study which means he gave blood while he was alive and then he died. so he…
• Stop Hitting Kids in the Head — Concept · 1 mention · first at 41:53
  Oh, I appreciate that. So yeah, the campaign's called Stop Hitting Kids in the Head. So we're trying to very you know very clearly make the case that it is completely abnormal to hit children in the head hundreds of times a year but.
• Play flag until 14 — Concept · 1 mention · first at 45:26
  So, we our campaign's called play flag until 14. for the PE, then when I talk to my buddies who like still, love football and want to protect their kids, I say,.
• MMA — Concept · 1 mention
• PET scan — Concept · 1 mention

Places & events

• Oxnard, California — Place · 1 mention · first at 1:11:09
  Nothing to do, it's it's going to be amazing. That is going to be Sunday, January 4th, Oxnard, California, Levity Live. It's going to be me, Karolina Hidelgo, Holden McNeely…
• Lewiston, Maine — Place · 1 mention
• Reno — Place · 1 mention

Full transcript with timestamps

0:01 There's no place to escape to. This is the last time on the left. Side stories.

0:09 That's when the cannibalism started. Side stories. Yes. All right, we are rolling, boys. Well, it's New Year's Eve, Henry. Wow. You believe that? I got my lingerie on. Yeah, I'm still wearing the same clothes that I wore 3 weeks ago. You believe that?

0:33 Haven't changed once. I I hate it. I like to I've sat in this chair for 3 weeks.

0:39 I haven't moved. Do you have a New Year's resolution? I actually have a real one.

0:43 Okay. I do. My goal for 2026 is to get better at texting friends for friend things.

0:52 Yes, I love this. I I did this two years ago and my life has been way better. In fact, I did phone calls. I do one call a week.

0:59 Yes. I'm going to try to be do more optional communication. Yeah. Because I'm very I get very we talk all the time

1:09 and I forget about the friends that I don't see all the time and I miss them. Oh, no. I love you and I I know we we exchange Christmas gifts, but I did get you a uh a gift to say goodbye to 2025.

1:20 What is it? A revolver? Oh, you [ __ ] piece of [ __ ] It's konchili. Yeah, it's sliced conchk.

1:29 Yeah, I got it for you. It's in a piece of [ __ ] can, dude. That's yours. I [ __ ] hate you.

1:35 I put that I got it. It's been It's why you luck has been so bad cuz it's actually been sitting in the studio for months.

1:40 I hate you. Yeah. Yeah, I got it from Pinocchio's down the street. It's all bro. It's all dented.

1:46 Well, yeah. It's trying to get out. Did you? I used it as a hammer. Oh, did you? Fine. But then we can't eat it.

1:53 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He uses a hammer just now, like a few minutes ago. Great.

1:58 Actually, really, this speaks a lot to Rob. You have multiple computers. You're allowed to buy a hammer.

2:03 No, no, no, no, no. I like the idea that it was cameras. I had to either walk upstairs, multiple televisions. Yeah. It shows the strength of L Monaco's canning industries, and I seem really proud of them.

2:16 Yeah. The It kept this Queen Julian in there. They did. So, what's a prisoner? What is your New Year's resolution?

2:22 My New Year's resolution? Um, let me think about this. Well, I found my cause and I really am going to get behind it.

2:32 Yeah. What is it? My causes I I really like it's weird because like I've been like, you know, doing the show for a little while and I always said that once I found any type of success, I would try to find like something to support and get behind. And I recently found my cause, which is

2:48 breast implants for divorced women. Yes. That's amazing. Yeah. I know. And it's really with $10.99 a month you can help support this.

2:56 And honestly and some of us like listen the panel of husbands get together and what they do is they help shape the perfect breasts for your divorced woman. So the husbands get together we look at your divorced woman. We decide what size she should get.

3:13 Yeah. Sometimes it's a reduction. Yeah. Cuz sometime Well, very rarely. Sometimes we remove the breast completely and put in two little penises.

3:20 Very rarely. Very rarely cuz it's expensive. Very rare. It has been done. No. What is it for real? Welcome to Side Stories. My name is Sus and he's now going to reveal

3:31 his actual secret. Um Yeah. No, I I um I I want to get I'm starting to support I put some I I donated some money. Um this interview that's about to come up is all about it. Um I am I I've donated my my brain um to the Concussion Legacy Foundation. So, you just given in installments?

3:52 Yeah. Yeah. It's really They take it in little pieces. It's really nice. Have you not noticed I've been dumber?

3:57 Yes. Okay. That's why I asked. That's why I've been PP IP my pants. That's why I asked.

4:03 It's so funny when I pee my pants. I know you like it, but the rest of us are getting alarmed by the smell and the color.

4:09 But I've um So, the interview I'm about to do is with Dr. Chris Noitzky. Um he is, if you remember from the Aaron Hernandez series, he is the guy who collects the brains. He's the guy with the cooler. Yes. So when a player dies, he's the one who gets and he goes and he finds the player. And I really wanted to interview him. It was like I was the whole time because he's also he's a he was a football player at Harvard. He was a um a wrestler in in WWE and then he eventually had too many concussions where he had to stop. And so I was really I had our people reach out to his people and then finally like I just jumped in his DMs and he got back to me.

4:51 I really can't say enough how hard Ed worked to ex to secure this interview. It means a lot is actually extremely interesting. A very deep look into this issue.

5:03 Yes. From somebody that is at the very forefront like this isn't just like this. It's really no one's looking into CTE. It's like it's really like a handful of people and Christo Whiskey is one of them.

5:15 Yeah. It's like the people that like just discovered that women get pmenopause. You know what I mean? They like just discovered that like like they're like because you're looking at this women's health thing, you know?

5:27 Well, consider donating to the Concussion Legacy Foundation, whether it's money or your own brain. Um I did both. And uh I I love this man immensely and I can't uh I can't tell you enough. But please listen to the interview. Uh Dr. Chris Noitzky

5:45 live from your grave. All right. Thank you everyone for tuning in to this very important episode of last podcast on the left. I'm sitting here with the man Dr. Chris Noitzky. He's one of the leading authorities on CTE. That's chronic traumatic and sephylopathy. Did I say it right?

6:06 Yes, sir. All right. You're a neuroscientist. You've had multiple TED talks on the subject. You wrote the book Head Games, which led to the documentary the same title. Um, you've organized and formed the Concussion Legacy Foundation, a brain donation registry with Dr. Cantou. You've worked extensively with Dr. Anne McKe at Boston University and the Unite Brain Bank. You've played football at Harvard University, and you were a wrestler at WWE, Chris Harvard, the Ivy League snob. Welcome to Last Podcast on the left. Um, before we get started, I think you're amazing. I I love everything you've done. It means the world to me. Your work has made me cry multiple times. I'm trying to hold it together in this moment. Um, I played football for nine years. Uh it's it was it was a it I didn't realize it was a traumatic experience till decades later when I started to like thinking about it a lot and everything that you have done is a

7:10 beautiful thing and so let's start with how you got into this when you were wrestling at WWE you got a couple injuries once from Bubba Ray Dudley big mean looking dude actually from big friendly dude looking friendly. He looks friendly. That's what but he's but you know I wouldn't fight him. And uh and then he kicked you in the head and and then that led to your retirement. And before that um I believe it was Edge fell on you off of the top rope or jumped on you off the top rope during a Royal Rumble and that was a major uh concussion as well. And now you have permanent postconussion syndrome.

7:53 Correct. Well, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm I'm mostly better, but there's still some things I wish weren't there.

8:00 Yeah. What? So, can you explain like what how does it so permanent like how what happens? What how do you still feel this? How long ago was this?

8:09 This is 2003. And so, okay, brain injury is a funny thing. For most most of the time, you have a brain injury, you feel symptoms for a while, and you get better, and you sort of never notice it. Although now we know they sort of add up over time and they can cause long-term problems. For me though with a postconussion syndrome, you basically get a brain injury where you don't recover the same way. And that's partially because when you have a hit to the head, a million things can go wrong. And

8:37 so it could be actual physical structural brain damage to your brain. It could be damage to the nerves that go into your brain, the dura matter around your brain. And we don't have the tools to figure that out. And so some people are just left with permanent symptoms that they slowly might get better over time. They might need rehab. And I I don't know why I developed permanent headaches or I developed a sleep disorder. But um yeah, another

9:03 and you still have those problems. The sleep disorder is actually finally quite rare. I I developed REM behavior disorder which means I acted out my dreams. And at the beginning like it was like I was jumping off of beds and I was detach you know choke you putting people in choke holds and like it was I couldn't differentiate sleep from reality for like a minute like the first minute I woke up.

9:24 Wow. Which was bizarre and scary for me and anyone who's with me. And then um and the headaches like it took me 15 years to get them under control but now they're mostly under control.

9:34 Wow. And do you think that it's obviously you're a neuroscientist so you know how to do this better than anyone else. A lot of people probably go with this like undiagnosed.

9:44 Yeah. I mean, you know, you think back now, you know, cuz now my whole world is people who had years of symptoms after injuries, but you know, in the in the '9s, I don't remember that being a thing. And I honestly like we look back and go, these things were happening, but people didn't have a name for it. And I wonder if these are the people we were used to call like burnouts or people who you know we just figured out like they just disappeared from the world and we thought there was something wrong with them or psychiatric but in reality they developed permanent symptoms and just didn't know it wasn't worth telling anyone about cuz who wants to hear it.

10:15 Yeah. No, of course I've dealt with this just because we just did the um Aaron Hernandez series and I've been deal dealing with this even with my own friends back home. People I I love like they're like, "Oh, you're really talking against football. you're really like bringing up these things. You like people don't like it. It's cuz well not just that not just the fact that everyone gathers for football. It's a family thing. Um including with wrestling, people gather to like watch wrestling together. Um wrestling is a great outlet for people who I don't know in my experience don't have many friendships, you know. It's like it's like a soap opera, you know. So it's a very powerful uh thing for people and it's it's good. It's inherently good to like form is like forming bonds with everyone but we don't realize that the toll that it takes on people and also the amount of money that is based around

11:10 these sports uh if you go just straight I mean forget about ticket sales and and beer sales and stuff like that but like sports bars merchandise there's like rally house is like a whole it's a it's a it's across the nation now as a sports or you know, everyone's got jerseys. It's there's so much money. I don't even know how to calculate it. So, do you get in trouble when you're poking holes into these industries?

11:38 I mean, I wouldn't say in trouble. I mean, I've I've made a lot of enemies and I'm not very popular. And I remember like I've I've been invited to like NFL owner suites as guests and they won't put my name down. They'll put someone else's name down. You know, they still want me to come, but they don't want to be known to be associated with me. Um, so but honestly like being a a heel as a wrestler was like great preparation for like being disliked in this. I'm very comfortable being disliked if I think I'm doing the right thing.

12:06 How many years were you wrestling? I wrestled for three years and I still work for WWE injured when I was injured for four. So I was I was part of the company for a long time. Um, and yeah, and it it's just it was interesting though you what you mentioned about how the the NFL how your friends reacted the NFL did a good job of making this not about player safety but about anti-OOT to talk about the bad parts of football, you know, and and so I what we have spent the last 20 years trying to do is sort of try to make it about, you know, this isn't anti-Out. This is it's all about your your the bonds that you form in football and your teammates and it's about doing the right thing. you know, look at the the the bright side cuz I now I now have two teammates. We've lost to CT and I keep their photos on my desk.

12:52 You know, this this was my starting strong safety. We just released that he died of 45 with CT and um you know, this is me on the cover of the Harvard program and this is our captain. He died in 2001 and had stage 2 CT. And so, um and both died horrible ways that they didn't they weren't they weren't trying to. So, it's um for me it's not anti-Ot, but it's it's it's more about we need to take care of each other.

13:16 Yeah, exactly. There was a lot we were taught I I grew up playing football in the '9s as well. Um we were taught to lead with our heads, you know, that's that's you know, but it was like it was like put your face mask first, you know, and then I was told knock them out, you know, and it was like you were almost rewarded for it, you know. This is, you know, this is and the thing is you maybe it's not like that at the higher level, but these lower levels, no one's monitoring us. No one was anyway in the '9s. We were just we were beating the crap out of each other doing bull in the ring and and uh Oklahoma's and all these crazy drills that are just basically punishing people. Like I remember if someone got in trouble or like had like didn't show up for practice, they'd put them in the middle of the ring and they'd have us all beat the crap out of them, you know? And so it's just it's part it's part of what h stuff that

14:07 happens. And I know this isn't anything that you subscribe to personally. This is just my own personal experience. But I want to get back into wrestling. Um because when this happened, like did you know in this incident like with Dudley, did you know that you were messed up in that moment? I knew that I had for the first time forgotten how the match was supposed to end,

14:27 but I didn't know that that really meant much. And so I remember just telling them like, "Hey guys, I I can't remember what's next. Tell me what, you know, tell me what to do." And so we they just kept telling, you know, you can call matches in the ring. We called the match. My head was throbbing like crazy. The athletic trainer thought something was wrong cuz I was acting funny. And I was like, "Leave me alone. I'm fine." Because I came from the football culture where you don't admit anything's wrong.

14:49 No. Cuz you get they take you out of the game. Yeah. And it's bad for your reputation. And so I uh and I thought I just assumed the headache would go away. And the next day when I woke up and it was still there after I drove three hours to the next show, I was almost going to tell them. And then I walked into the training room and I like saw other guys there like with real injuries and like getting ready with fused necks and like you know what they're you know knee braces for torn ACLs and I'm like I'm not going to tell them my head hurts. And so I wrestled for five more weeks basically lying about how horrible I felt thinking I was doing the right thing. Wow. How bad is a chair hit to the head?

15:26 As bad as you can, as bad as you think it is. I mean, if you put your hand up like we did in the in the 80s, it's nothing cuz it never touches your head. But we forgot that, you know, like and then part of that was, I think, the ECW influence of, you know, like, you know, there became an audience for hardcore and then also people think the internet

15:48 when the wrestlers could read when the fans knew stuff was fake and that that that they felt pressured to make it real.

15:57 And also UFC was coming MMA was coming around then and so there's also that competition. So, there's all these influences that drove us to let's all just hit each other for real. While I was there, it was like the most dangerous time in wrestling.

16:09 I remember when I realized as even as a young man that this was kind of messed up was the halftime show between Rock and Mankind when he hit him in the head with the chair.

16:22 Seven times. Seven times. Just was Mick Foley talking about this at our gala because he spoke for us.

16:28 Really? Yeah. Does he think he has it? I mean, because he put himself out there just as much as anybody, if not more.

16:35 Well, so the the reason he was there and the story he told was in 2013, he was going to make a comeback match, but he was noticing nothing was sticking in his memory anymore. And so he went to the same doctor who retired me. And I said, I said, "Go see Dr. Ku. He's always the best guy to figure this out." And he told this wonderful story on stage about how he, you know, he did all his tests and he came back two weeks later and Dr. Ker said, "You know, you you seem like a bright guy. Um I don't think you should ever wrestle again, and you could probably find someone to clear you, but um but I I will not clear you." And Mick said, "My career ended not with a great match, but with a handshake from a guy who clearly cared about my long-term health." And the night before he spoke at our gala, he did one of his stand-up shows because his brain is still working.

17:23 Yeah. No, he's hitting the road hard. Yeah. I know it's I love going to a club and seeing his face. Yeah.

17:29 Yeah. So he So he saved the, you know, the the next 10 20 years of his life because he convinced him to stop getting hit in the head so much.

17:38 What percentage of wrestlers do you think develop CTE? You know, we only have like there's only like 10 brains in the brain bank. There's a lot of guys who've pledged.

17:49 Okay. And so I think you know so also there Natalia spoke because we diagnosed her dad Jim the Anvil Nightheart with CT.

17:57 Mhm. And she's now talking about that in her book. He got it primarily from football. He played football from like 10 to the NFL.

18:04 So the reality is I you know there's I don't want to speculate because it's I could speculate on some of the sports where you have really good data. It's certainly a good decent percentage of of wrestlers have it. It's not all from wrestling because there's a lot of ex football players that go into it, ex other contact sports, but it's it's a problem like you know started you Chris Benwall was the first sort of window into the fact that we knew like oh gosh like getting you know this wrestling can cause this but if you do it wrong essentially

18:33 so out of the 10 that you got how many had it that you said you've studied 10 wrestlers so far.

18:41 Yeah. Well, I mean, I I can only really speak to the the the public ones because the other thing about wrestling is that it's a it's an industry where a lot of people who've donated the brain, you know, they people stay in that that culture in that business still sometimes make money. So, we I can only So, I it has I think it's been less than half.

18:58 Okay. Okay. That that we've studied have had it, but um it's it's been a handful of folks.

19:03 Now, you mentioned Chris Benois. We um I don't know back in the day before I was a part of last podcast and he left they did an episode on Chris Benwis. So I imagine the listeners are going to want to hear about that. Do you did you ever wrestle with him? Did you know him personally?

19:17 I did. Well, so we we crossed over and the guy the first time I met him the time I got to know him was he just got his neck fused back in 2002 or so. I was in Heartland Wrestling, just had been signed

19:32 and um and so he came in and I remember there's a wrestler named Ray Steel who was tighter with him and and sort of got him back into wrestling shape and he and he invited me to be like the other guy.

19:43 So we took bumps, you know, and I spent like, you know, a few, you know, a few hours with him, just three of us. And I remember at one point he was he started helping me. And so like my most vivid memory of that is that like I I didn't know how to throw form at that and I've been in wrestling for a few months.

19:57 And he's like, "Well," he's like, "Anything I can help you with?" And I'm like, "My forearm sucks." He goes, "Show me." And he dipped his head and I, you know, hit him and I whacked him because I couldn't control it yet.

20:06 And he's like, "All right, that wasn't a good one." You know, and it was like that he was just a very generous guy with his body and his time to me. And so the other part of that was that when when I was injured and I was working on the book, he was the only guy in the locker room who asked me about the book I was writing and all these questions about concussions. And he and that was the first time he gave me a cell phone number was this, you know, it was months or a year before before the murder suicide where he said, "Give me a call.

20:33 I want to talk about concussions cuz I've had more than I can count." And um and then when I called him, he he sounded like he was in the middle of an argument with somebody and he's like, "I'll call you back." And he never did. And I just had no idea like what he you know now I know he was going to be asking for help and he just he didn't and I didn't call him back because I was intimidated by him and and I missed out on probably a chance to intervene on that.

20:55 That's that's very intense. Um yeah but it's been drives why I still do this. I mean, I literally was doing that today with somebody uh you know, an ex-boxer who's a friend of a friend and like you know, wandered out into the snow without his shoes in in a up north and nearly died last night and we're trying to get him care.

21:19 That is that's heartbreaking. I'm Thank you so much for talking to us. I know you're extremely busy and you were just on the phone with this guy and so you definitely could have just said, "Ed, you know, we'll do this another time." Future reference the But um

21:32 we got it done. We got it done. That's amazing. Thank you very much. Now Chris Penois um he was known of course for his move the the crossface crippler um but also the flying headbutt and the flying headbutt. What is from my brief research on it that move people who do that move are linked to trauma and they've known they've all had to retire early. Correct. Or I mean, I haven't done that research. Who Who else has done it?

22:03 Ah, man. You know, I should have wrote it all down, but there was a short list of the flying headbutt and everyone who did it, and they're like, "Yeah, we quit. We had to quit. I had horrible concussions."

22:11 Yeah. Well, I mean, the the the reality is, you know, we forget like you can't cheat physics. And so, if you're going to come off the like I I've come off the top rope like it's horrible. It hurts. And if you actually going to go down with your your arms can't brace or control the energy cuz you'd want to go slap the mat. You can't. All that energy is going in your head. And then the question is, did you really miss him? Because if you do hit if you make contact with your head, you're sending a huge impulse of of energy in your in your brain,

22:43 especially when it's the leading force. Um it was uh Harley Race, the Dynamite Kid, and Bam Bam Bigalow. all uh all

22:51 yeah mean I mean I know Dynamo kids died young Harley Race I think had dementia when he died so I mean it it you know I certain like certainly that that contributed to the whole thing I mean I will say that the only note I'll give to teach about the science is that we think CT is mostly caused by rotational acceleration

23:09 in the sense that uh when we see the lesions in the brain at at the bottoms your surface of your brain your cortex has hills and valleys because basically you've evolved to fold as much cortex You can we see the CT at the bottom of the cortex and it's because when you twist the brain rapidly your axon is creates centrial force axons pull apart you get tiny tears around blood vessels when it's just a linear acceleration your brain compresses a little bit but doesn't really stretch and you don't get that tear but you do get you can get a concussion you do get a brain injury it's not good for you but it's a different mechanism so I don't think the headbutt necessarily would have caused the CT unless they were twisting at the end

23:49 interesting thing. Um, Michael Benois, uh, Chris Benois's father thought that it was a sudden change in his personality. Um, did you did you notice that cuz you said he was a nice guy and he was a lot of fun to be around.

24:01 I didn't have enough interactions to see the change, but I will tell you like I I just saw an interview with Nick Dinsmore talking about how he saw the change. Basically, once we diagnosed him, all the wrestlers started to try to tell me like, "Yeah, in the last year I I found him crying in the hallway on the road. He he stopped calling matches cuz I don't think he could remember them. Like he definitely changed.

24:21 Yeah. And now So whenever a wrestler dies, do you just reach out to the family immediately?

24:28 You know, so for brain donation, you have 48 hours. 48 hours basically to get a hold of them and 72 hours to get the brain taken care of, put in a formulin solution to be studied. So, um, B, I I don't make as many calls anymore because the reality is we've made brain donations so normal. We get more offers of brains than we can afford to study at the brain bank.

24:52 We're studying about 150 brains a year and that's all we have the staff and the and the money to do and and it's one of the most busy brain banks in the world. Um, because each one is so expensive and so timeconuming. So, um, so I I don't I I call cases that are in the public interest. I certainly call when it's people I know or or people I'm one person away from. Like I do but I also don't tell speak about the cases that turn us down. So I'm never that specific because I don't want anyone to feel pressured that they have to do it.

25:20 Oh, I see. I see. But I Yeah, I make a lot of calls. I had a specific question about Hulk Hogan, but you can't answer. But I would think that he changed a lot. I think in my lifetime he's he was a different dude by the end of his life. And so I think that would have been an interesting one to study. um if you if they were um willing, but obviously that's too late at this point. It's been way more than 72 hours.

25:43 Yeah, I got a I got a kayfabe all that stuff. Yeah, the best use of kayfabe there.

25:51 Um so we said a chair hit to the head's really hard, but you also mentioned a soccer ball can be very bad to the head.

25:59 Uh yeah, and so so you've seen a lot of CTE and soccer players as well. Yeah, we've seen some in the US. Where they're seeing a ton of it is in England, in Scotland.

26:10 Really interesting. So that basically there's there's a there's not that many old soccer players in the US because it wasn't cool for Yeah. It wasn't normal mainstream. Um but the uh there's been a few hundred brains donated in the UK

26:26 and they have a ton of guys with CT. Now going back to Chris Benwell for two seconds. Do you think steroids mixed with CTE is an issue?

26:38 Yeah, there's there's no research on it. So, like when it all went down, knowing what he had told me and knowing that the kill the killings were over two days and the Bibles and the weird things like it it didn't speak to steroids.

26:53 Certainly steroids are not going to help. Yeah. Uh but there aren't enough cases with the interaction to know. I don't. And steroids are not going to cause the brain damage. Like the steroids might cause hormonal impulsive behaviors,

27:06 but it's speculation. What about drugs? Just like cocaine, molly, stuff like that.

27:15 Do you think that affects some if someone with CTE takes drugs? Do you think it changes the way they are?

27:20 It can't. Again, it can't help. It's all about um when you have CT, you have frontal lobe brain damage.

27:26 So, you become what they call disinhibited. your your prefrontal cortex is helping you make good decisions and when that starts malfunctioning you start making worse decisions. You want to layer on drugs and alcohol decisions are going to get worse.

27:40 Now I um I know that the why does the brain not heal itself because I know some organs do like over time kind of heal themselves a little bit you know uh but the brain doesn't seem to heal itself. the brain um you you if you kill a neuron like yeah another one doesn't grow in its place

28:02 okay um I don't don't I don't you know we don't exactly know why that is um other than it's not designed to there there's probably a bad side to that um you your recovery if you have physical damage is rerouting around it you can build other connections dendritic connections between you know create new circuits and and and uh work around the injury. But basically, you kill a neuron uh microglade comes in, clears the area, and um you're born with about nearly 100 billion neurons and then they just, you know, you start losing them. You start losing them in your in midlife.

28:40 When it comes to football players in particular, I'm going to focus on football for most of the rest of the interview. Um, how many concussions do you think is okay for a player to have before they're like, like I'm a Miami Dolphins fan. I'm from Boca Raton. Uh, Tua, like do we think he should still be playing?

29:00 So, the interesting thing is that we now have nearly a thousand football players brains.

29:06 Okay. And we have all their, you know, medical records. We we've talked to their families. We know how many concussions they told their family they had. Um, and what we find is there is no conc number of concussions you were diagnosed with or the number of concussions you told your family about or you think you had when you self-report do not predict CTE.

29:27 Okay. What predicts CTE is B what in our models is how many years you played because that is a rough proxy for how many hits you took and and how hard you they were. And we published a study in 2023 that actually laid sensor data from helmets by position by year over the historical careers of everyone in our database. So if you were a a college lineman, offensive lineman, you average 860 hits that 24 G's. And if and in high school, if you were also a linebacker, you took 750 hits that were this. We laid that over and that predicted who got CT.

30:05 Interesting. So it's like a math problem. It's number and strength of head impacts. It's not unlike smoking and lung cancer like how many packs a day for how many years is going to predict your your your lung cancer risk.

30:16 What position not concussions? What positions are most likely to experience the CTE?

30:24 So we don't have in those in those models because there's no difference in part because the the uh linemen take more hits but they're not as hard.

30:37 Yeah. Yeah, cuz they're so close, right? But and then we also we don't nobody remembers what special teams they were on

30:45 and kickoff and kickoff return are going to be the worst. The wedge busters and that changes week to week and so it's really hard to build those in the model. Yeah, exactly. The wedge busters are going to be worse, but like how many Yeah, that that it I can't remember how many times I was wedge buster. I was

30:59 but I remember how many which which seasons and how many times I did it. So, so the models don't predict by position. Although I am aware of a study that'll look that looks at death rates and finds that um that the non-line are actually a little worse off.

31:14 Um linebackers and and yeah, it is the extreme hits that are probably causing CT. But one other one other important piece of data I'll give you is that concussions aren't always the hardest hits you take. So if you think about CT is a physics injury, concussions are usually the 90th percentile. And what that means, and they made they put this in a study, for every one concussion a college football player has, they take 341 hits harder than that concussion.

31:43 And that's probably where the CT risk is lies. The asymptomatic, I think I'm fine, but you got crushed. You're creating microscopic brain damage. You can't feel.

31:52 Yeah. Well, because it's basically it's when the brain inside your skull like hits the skull basically.

31:58 No, it's that it's that twisting. Your brain never really hits your skull and we can see contusions when you die. There are some people have contusions, but it's really rare among football players.

32:08 That's that car accident stuff. Um, no, it's the twisting. It's that rotation that's really the culprit. And do you think like as far as like that you mentioned car accidents uh a a one single head injury is that can that cause CTE or is it more of the the repeated over and over and over again?

32:26 In theory like in theory it has to be true. But when you look through brain banks of people who've had one severe brain injury that put them into a hospital we almost never almost never see CTD.

32:38 So it's like your brain is meant to take one hit. It's just not meant to take 100 hits a week.

32:45 And so you studied some of the first um some of the first people involved in this. You were able to get um obviously there was Mike Webster and Terry Long were the first two people. Um and then

32:56 that was before me. Yeah. That was before you. But then you went and then you went to see Andre Waters family and

33:03 well I to get his brain I had to call the medical examiner and then Yeah. then called his mom. Eventually met her.

33:08 Yeah. Do you have like a I don't know lack of a better word spiel like when you call a family like like how do you do that? Like it's such a personal thing.

33:19 Yeah, I do. I do. um cultivated over time. And I was just having that conversation because in 2006 uh I I was just at our annual gal. I was with my boss from 2006 who I was he was in the office next door and I was like and you I just finished the book but there was no foundation and I was like I think I think this Waters thing is is CT and um and the medical examiner just gave me Andre Waters uh mother's phone number and I've got to call her and ask for the brain and what and so we like wrote out a script together

33:51 of like how do you explain to somebody fast enough the relevant information before they hang up on you or think you're an absolutely insane person cuz I'm not a doctor. I'm not This has never been done before.

34:01 Yeah. And it's within two days of them passing away. Well, this one was this one was even worse because I went back and forth the medical examiner for weeks. He was kind enough to entertain the idea that Andre could have had CT. And I I sent him literature. Andre, they they had buried Andre.

34:20 Yeah. But in Florida law, when somebody dies of, you know, unknown suspicious circumstances, like we think it's suicide, but maybe it's something else. Um, they keep brain tissue.

34:31 So, they had kept parts of his brain. And so, I had to also tell her, "By the way, his full brain was not buried with him

34:40 and we can study it. It's just sitting at the medical examiner's office." Wow. Which is a strange thing to tell the a mother who lost her son, but they had to do it. Did you work um on Shane Tamura?

34:53 No. The No. Is that that was a that was someone else who studied him. How many organizations are studying brains? And um

35:01 that was an organization. So that was the New York City Medical Examiner's Office.

35:04 Okay. Which is the busiest medical examiner's office in the country. Yes. And they brought in CT experts from Manhattan. I know I know who did but um and and they were part of the team that developed CT criteria so they know it.

35:17 Okay. And of course, Shane Tomar, for those of you who don't know, was the was the person who recently went into tried to shoot up the NFL, made a mistake, shot some other people, and then claimed he did it because he had CTE from playing high school football. And then he did in fact have it, even though people were very skeptical, including myself.

35:35 Cuz you don't think that someone who just played high school football could have this could happen to them. Um, do you think that it is very personal, do you think that you might have it

35:45 from how much? The odds are I have it. I mean, if you know the two guys who have had it from my team were not the guys we thought would have it. Like I was a guy who led with my head like one of those guys was not

35:54 and I, you know, and I also had the postconussion, you know, brain damage. So, I'm the only thing I have going for me is I waited till 14 to start. But, so I played eight seasons of football, three years of wrestling, headed a lot of soccer balls. Um but but on that high school front which is again it's going to be tough to communicate but the high school rate is actually much higher than people want to imagine.

36:16 Yeah. Like Shane I think is a canary in a coal mine but we we've studied nearly 100 high school players and 30% have had it in our brain bank. We just don't know how biased our sample is. But we also just had our first brain donor die. It was part of the bank CTE study which means he gave blood while he was alive and then he died. Uh so he try to diagnose CT through the blood and we're still enrolling for bank CTE if you want to Google it. Um the uh he Chip Collins he was his high school captain played eight seasons of football never played after high school got dementia in his mid50s. His family went on an odyssey of misdiagnosis for a decade. Finally ran into one of my board members at a an event and started the conversation and and he had he only had CT. That's all he had

37:02 from high school football. you think uh now I know I'm going back into it but now I'm just like now I'm just like thinking about myself um the

37:11 well that's part of the problem like it's we can't like we can't go back and take the hits back and so communicating the fact that there might be you know more than a million former high school players that have this

37:25 um you know if that's true like you know we're trying to sort of figure out how to get get those numbers it's gonna be hard. It's really nice to think about.

37:34 Personally, I worry about it because, you know, I I'm a nice guy, you know, I got a good I got a good head on my shoulders. I'm very, you know, like I'm friendly, but like I randomly flip out sometimes, you know, and so and then I think about I uh I started playing football at 8 years old and and then I played all the way through 16. And I know that's not as long as a lot of other people, but you it's frankly it's it worries me because I was such a big guy that I was the biggest baby born in Florida. Not bragging, just telling you who I am. Oh wow. And and uh

38:07 so they threw me in pads immediately. And so that was like my father, he just saw dollar signs when I was born, you know, and and so and he played football for University of M Missouri. And I'm I'm nothing kicks me harder than not getting his brain studied because he had to quit in the 60s from too many concussions. He had a literal dent in the front of his head, you know, and so I was

38:32 Did you notice any behavioral problems? My whole family hated him. Um, you know, so it wasn't, you know, he he basically excommunicated me from my entire family, you know, and so and then everyone that loved him growing up ended up hating him by the time he died. And so I really do believe uh he he didn't have any good relationships except for the people that you know he married his wife uh young later in life and they he was very peaceful at the end of his life. Uh so that you know I will say that but the but the rest of it

39:02 I did I mean you know who knows but I worry about myself is what I'm saying because do you think that it could be in in you can certain people are more prone to it like you can inherit it in a weird way like some people who smoke like die sooner than other people.

39:16 Yeah. you inherit it culturally, right? In the sense that, you know, if dad played and and is still healthy when when you're when it's up to you, you get it. So, we have a ton of father-sons in the brain bank. It's kind of sad. Um, and but then no, there's I mean, it's not the the what we have shown is that there's no there's no like huge genetic predisposition. So, like when you know, we've looked at 500 NFL players brains and 90% have had it, right? There's no amazing magic genetic protection cuz it's basically almost everybody. Um if you get to 20,000 hits in your life, right? Um but we have shown very clearly that there are a number of genes that are going to modify how bad it hits you.

39:59 Yeah. So there's a lot of people who are completely fine until their 70s. And there is

40:04 um but not not everyone. We covered it in our um in our episode and I'm I'm sorry. Wyatt Bramwell, 18 years old.

40:14 He ended up taking his own life in 2019. And then he had um and he had CTE when you were Did you work on that case?

40:22 That Yeah, I mean that was that was our case. Um he had he was the youngest person that have stage two. So he was 18. We we thought, you know, like we've published that there's an average of 13 years between stages. So you see stage one as late as someone's 40s and then you know earliest stage like Aaron Hernandez was early stage three in his 27. Wyatt's earliest stage two at 18. So he probably got it like 10.

40:49 Yeah. And it had been already progressing in his brain. He had massive mental health problems in high school. He knew he had it. He had asked to donate his brain. I actually met his parents for the first time last month at our at our dinner. They're the sweetest people. Um dad was his coach. like thought, you know, we all thought we were doing the right thing. Um, so it's a very sad case. It

41:10 is a an extremely sad case and it's honestly what worries me immensely about what's happening in society today. Um, right now you're working on something and I do want to get to Aaron Hernandez. Trust me, that's what everyone really wants me to. But I want to talk about one of your what you're doing right now. Um, because I watch your TED talks. Very good. Um the uh stop hitting children. Um so this is Can you just explain this? We have a lot of listeners. We're True Crime podcast. A lot of our listeners are women in their 40s. So make your plea to them to make sure that their children are doing sports the correct way.

41:51 Oh, I appreciate that. So yeah, the campaign's called Stop Hitting Kids in the Head. So we're trying to very you know very clearly make the case that it is completely abnormal to hit children in the head hundreds of times a year but some sports are still doing it

42:07 and and try to just make it sort of very clear like you don't hit your own kid in the head because you worry about the consequences. Therefore don't let other kids hit your kid in the head. Just because it's culturally acceptable to do that in youth football does not mean it's right. The brain, the human brain when it's developing, especially young, is going through enormous physical changes every day. And these hits are going to disrupt that development, and they're going to turn your kid into somebody different than they were supposed to be without the head impacts.

42:34 And it does not ever go in a good direction. Brain trauma is never good for you. And so, um, now that we know that there's a straight line with CT, now that we know that concussion, just concussions increase your risk of mental health disorders, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, like don't don't let people hit kids in the head. And so, our our plea to sports is to say just raise the age at which we start saying open season on your brain. So, that's why we we got heading ban till 11 in the US, which is still not young enough. We say at least 14 and go as long as you can without hitting your kid in the head. Um

43:09 Oh, so you can't you can't put on a helmet and play till you're 11. Now you can't head a soccer ball.

43:14 Oh, had a soccer ball. It's illegal in the game. Sorry. Yeah. But the problem is tackle football is the one sport where there's no national governing body and it's a bunch of small capitalist organizations who, you know, just are just trying to compete with each other for kids. So there's no age minimums. The only reason the age minimum is five is because that's how old you have to be to remember where to line up. Like uh and so it's insane that we take a 40 pound kid, put a four pound helmet on their head and ask them to run into people. That's like an NFL NFL player wearing a 30 pound helmet. Like just imagine how stupid that would be and the physics to your brain. And also like your your your ner your axons, your long 120th the width of a human hair axons aren't protected from trauma when you're young. You're you're building a a a type of cell around it that will protect it like wire like coating on a

44:01 wire. And so it's just like the worst idea ever to be whacking these kids. And now that we put sensors on the helmets of youth football players, they actually because they're little human bobbleheads are getting hit as hard as college football players.

44:17 It doesn't look like it's big, but it's be it's not that they're bringing a lot of energy into the hit is they can't slow their head down when they get hit or they can't stop their head from striking the ground when they fall.

44:28 So yeah. So please don't hit your kids in the head or don't let anyone else hit your kids in the head. choose sports that are that just worry about athleticism. They can run into each other once in a while. Again, the body's meant to take that, but this repetition is is insane.

44:41 What sports are good? Basketball. Every like 40 40 sports are good. There's like four sports that are bad, right? Like the tackling sports are terrible. Rugby and and football when you're young. The ones where you hit a projectile with your head, like soccer.

44:55 Ice hockey with checking is insane at a young age. Now it's banned till 13. And then boxing and MMA with head strikes, like terrible ideas. But after that, it's like everything else is pretty good. Lacrosse has been pretty aggressive in trying to reform and be safer, you know? So, I I don't have any problems with it. Every head contact is supposed to be a penalty before 14. My kids are playing basketball. They're playing T-ball. They're, you know, they're doing taekwond do. There's no head strikes. Like, they're young.

45:22 What age should you be allowed to start football in your opinion? So, we our our campaign's called play flag until 14. Um, you know, for the PE, you know, then when I talk to my buddies who like still, you know, love football and want to protect their kids, I say, "All right, well, middle school, 12, 13, it's a gray area, right?" Like, but there's no reason to start before 12.

45:43 Yeah. I mean, I think about it like how scared I was cuz not just I was eight playing with 12-year-olds because of my size

45:51 and then like, you know, it's cuz I was a big boy, but these kids are obviously stronger than me. I'm just fat, you know, and so it's like And so they're beating the crap out of me. I'm the only white kid on the team. They love hitting me. Good for them. I'm glad they had fun. But the uh the

46:06 Did you also have to play both ways? Yeah, man. Yeah. I was center and defensive tackle, you know, and I would because I was so big and like the first year and then I got good by the end of the season and then both ways until 16 and then I eventually quit just because I loved weed and theater too much. Thank God. But um but yeah, man, it was uh it definitely terrifies me that it's it's uh it it comes it's could be a something happened. That's

46:38 the good news is I'll tell you this that what I tell everyone like you know the guys of us who are like midlife like at risk. Yeah. Like notice things that we don't like about our behavior and our ability you know that um you you know treat the symptoms aggressively. You can treat the symptoms, you know, it's not addiction issues are a lot of things that kill people. Like get that you got to have that under control. You're not going to die from this. Like it's all about the behaviors will kill you, not the disease.

47:04 Okay. So So stay under control. Work on your brain health. So one of the things I've done is

47:09 lion's mane. No, the supplements are all garbage. I I I have started losing I' I've started losing weight. I've actually I'll tell you I haven't told anybody. I've taken GLPS. I'm taking Zepbound.

47:21 Oh, I'm on it, baby. Let's rock. Yeah. Yeah. No, I lost 60 lbs. I feel like a new man.

47:26 Oh, great. I'm I'm down 35 and I'm actually like weaning off blood pressure medication because like I'm Yeah, cuz hold on to whatever you can. Heart health is brain health, you know? You we got to eat like champs and and we got we have to be vigilant, but also like I keep telling guys like look, you can develop a cure in 20 years easy if you get things right if we invest in this thing. And so now it's like just trying to build this army of ex- football guys and ex rugby guys and you know people who are at risk going do it for you. Do it for like we can fix this thing before it gets bad but we have to work now.

47:56 Any leads on a cure? Well so we're basically at this point where I think we're on the cusp of diagnosing CT and living people and at that point we can start clinical trials. What we've learned in the last five years is that we've been we've been trying to draft off Alzheimer's disease research because they're both uh the same protein is going wrong in the brain.

48:16 What we have learned though is tow protein, right? To protein. Yes, exactly. But they it misfolds with these injuries. We've learned that the misfolding of CT and misfolding of Alzheimer's is slightly different. And that means that the tests for Alzheimer's don't work for CT to to image it on PET scans and the blood tests. Um, so we have to build our own biomarkers and then we'll probably have to build our own drugs, but we'll we'll we'll use it using Alzheimer's technology and and Alzheimer's technology has made huge leaps. Uh, you know, you there's a drug now for the for the plaque. We just need to get a drug for this protein.

48:49 And you said you mentioned a moment ago about addiction and uh and CTE. Do you think that CTE can lead to people being just more chance of them becoming you dealing with addiction, whether it's alcohol or drugs or gambling?

49:04 It's hard to prove scientifically based on a brain bank sample, but you wouldn't believe the number of brain donors that we have who are uncontrolled alcoholics who died of liver failure.

49:15 Okay? and and including including uh you know my old roommate Chris Iman who was captain of the heart football team, three years in the NFL, NBA from Dartmouth, investment guy, doing amazing until alcohol took over and and and within 5 years he was dead and his frontal lobe was shrunk. And so it's like you cannot battle addiction with a damaged frontal lobe as well as you could with a healthy brain. No, I'm just I'm just saying so like so I Yes, I absolutely think you would not believe that the stories I could tell you about the uncontrolled alcoholics that were the worst alcoholics you ever heard that have died with CT.

49:53 Interesting. That makes a lot of sense to me because you're trying to dumb the pain down as well. Um I did a documentary uh and one of the subjects I touched on in the documentary was about uh gambling addiction and I talked to Dr. Danny Danley. She's a gambling counselor in Reno and she said in her studies though there's no one's funding this research but you know just her as a human being she said that there is a definite link that she could see between head injuries and gambling addiction. Uh and so do you think that this is something that like a lot of people have been in like multiple car accidents and stuff like that? Football players obviously they they have they they love gambling. I watched Brian Cox spend a lot of money on a cruise ship once.

50:38 Yeah. No, it's good. I I I don't doubt that for a second. The traumatic I mean traumatic brain injuries lowers your your makes you more impulsive, you know, it it again that disinhibition. Um so yeah, there's no I mean yeah I don't I don't I haven't looked up specifically the brain injuring gambling stuff, but I don't doubt it for a second.

50:56 Awesome. And um Aaron Hernandez. Yeah. So you listen to the series. Thank you very much. I appreciate you listening.

51:03 It was It was wonderfully entertaining. What' I get wrong? No, you got nothing wrong. I was I was like, "This is really incredibly well researched." I was very impressed.

51:12 [ __ ] yes. Yes. Shout out to Grant Gordon. He did a lot of work. He's also a big fan of yours. Oh, my buddy Grant who helped me write the CTE stuff. Uh he wanted me to ask uh what's your favorite type of cooler?

51:24 My favorite type of what? Cooler. Cooler. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What What kind of cooler do you use? What is it? You got a Yeti? Like when you go get a brain like what you like uh I love a barbecue, you know. I'm always trying to get like the best cooler possible, you know, like what do you

51:38 I got I Yeah, I I mean I I have transported a brain once in a styrofoam cooler like it's it's

51:46 Oh my god. Like Yeah, it's that's insane. Yeah. How do you How does it not like is there But is there like a certain like type of cooler that you're supposed to use?

51:55 No. No, it's Well, you usually trans transmitted Well, there's two ways. There's two ways the brain gets to the brain bank. One is that it's a curry. Like if if you get there within hours of them dying, it's actually a courier that that gets it right to the brain bank in Boston within hours cuz that allows you to flash freeze and do all these amazing genetic tests and things you can't do usually. Um so I don't know what the couriers are using.

52:19 Do they just put it on like a commercial flight or like is this FedEx or like what is it?

52:24 It's a commercial flight. Like we're literally like our team is literally working with the services who show up to the to the you know somebody gives them the brain and then they bring it to us like

52:33 so you're sitting on a Delta flight with a brain in your lab. I you know I haven't done that role but God bless it there are people who do that for us. Um

52:41 Wow. Yeah. And then there's um and then the other way is that you have to put it in a formalin solution like formaldahhide type of thing

52:49 and um and and it's literally in a a receptacle and it sits it has to harden for weeks because the brain is so soft. Uh so it can be transferred without getting damaged and then and then it gets shipped.

53:01 Wow. So Aaron Hernandez, he takes his own life in prison. How fast are are you with that phone call? Who do you call who would you call his mother? Oh, I you know I don't know I don't know what's public here but that was I I I believe they initiated that the family

53:18 they initiated that you believe. Okay. And um and so how so you get it, you study it, you see it. He had more advanced than anyone in his age at the time. Correct.

53:29 Correct. And uh and so what what do you do with that information? Do you immediately run to the press? Do you like how is like what's the what do you do? Like that's just like such valuable info

53:40 that this man who just killed multiple people, you know, over time, you know, he he suffers from this disease that is a reflection of football. Like that is very valuable information.

53:52 Like uh what what do you do once you find out? Do you guys is it like because I hear it last podcast like crazy news happens you know you start to get like a morbid

54:02 like way of looking at it you know like we're like oh my god there YOU KNOW HIGH FIVE you know like not you know you're not happy it happened but you're like oh we got something to talk about you know and and so like what is this like

54:13 the crazy is that your biggest case like I know what I'm asking that case got more attention than than any other case and so yes I I mean I'll tell you what happened when we got the call we're like, oh gosh, like we're going to find like a couple little spots of disease and it's not going to explain anything. And we thought it was just going to be like a, you know, not not help not help advance our understanding. But then when when Dr. Anne McKe who studied it said, "No, no, this is stage three." It's like, "Oh, now I can understand how somebody who might have had some behavioral issues, might have got in a little bit of trouble, turned into somebody who just signed a $40 million contract, but yet chooses to murder people over small things, right? like that makes no sense. Like stage stage three to me helped make sense of the this bizarre behavior that he exhibited.

55:00 Um and then the question was well this is a public health issue and I'm coming from from the perspective I've already seen this with Chris Benois. We have other murder suicides in the brain bank. Like people need to know what's happening here because this is entirely preventable, entirely optional and we're giving this brain disease to kids like Wyatt Bramwell. So um so we actually had an annual CT conference coming up and I and I suggested to Dr. McKe that she present this as a case study. We actually had we had a few dozen of our brain donor family members in the audience for this event because we had a dinner afterwards. So like she presented at this conference to all these families with a room full of press and and luckily everyone heard about it.

55:40 Wow. That is that is mind-blowing. How um how is the NFL cuz you at one point it was 110 out of 111 NFL players you examined had CTE. Um and I don't know what the numbers are at now because time has happened.

55:56 345 out of 376. 345 out of 376. So that's 90 something%. And so how many players do you think have it that play professional football? Um, uh,

56:11 percentage- wise, percentage- wise. Yeah. Well, we've proven it's at least 10% of all NFL players who've ever played.

56:18 Okay. And I think we're about to update that number. Wow. How is the NFL covered up CTE?

56:26 Yeah. League of Denial uh is probably the best way to get a window into that. So the the at the beginning they were trying to sort of cover up the concussion issue

56:37 by uh when Aman and Steve Young had to retire they started a concussion committee and then that committee designed research that I figured out when I wrote my book could only find negative results like basically like they were tracking people over their careers but if they retired from a concussion in the study they would drop out of the study because they couldn't get in touch with them for follow-up studies. So they would just say, "Oh, it didn't matter." So it was only you could only study the healthy people.

57:03 And so they they concluded from these studies of only healthy people, there were no long-term effects. And then when the CT stuff started to happen, they first tried to get the Benedomalu papers uh you know p pulled out of the journal. They wrote these scathing letters saying this is ridiculous. It's not it's misdiagnosed. It's all this stuff. And then um you know on him Pardon?

57:29 It seemed like it seemed like they did a hit job on him. Uh they tried to discredit all of his research. Well,

57:35 seemed like to me. Yeah, they so they did as from an outsider as an outsider. He also was not um was not a classic researcher.

57:43 Okay. So, there were things to pick apart. Gotcha. And that's in part why I started at an academic started the the Unite Brain Bank at Boston University with the foundation and Dr. McKe cuz this need to be real academics who just did research all day. He was he was a pathologist and a medical examiner and did a great thing by finding these cases but he's he's never been full-time research. So, um, but yeah, they attacked him and then, you know, they kept rolling out, uh, prestigious doctors who would say that we're completely wrong and we're stupid and we're liars and I mean, they said some crazy things over the years to try to discredit us every chance they got.

58:25 And obviously, I think Paul Tagle was was way worse at it than Roger Goodell, but has there been any improvements made in the last couple years? Like, do you feel like they're actually taking it seriously? Uh, so they, you know, they were sort of forced to acknowledge it in front of Congress in 2016, but it's not like they're trying to raise awareness of it. They are making more reforms to the game now, but honest like if you actually look at it, if they've changed the kickoff and they've done all these things, but a lot of that's about keeping players healthy on the field to make a better product. They're still recruiting children to start playing as young as five. Like they've got these ads with Payton Manning and Eli Manning coaching against each other where they're recruiting to tackle football, but they never show the kids colliding.

59:08 They're saying that they're playing at halftime at the stadium. Yeah. And so you can't be serious about preventing CTE if you're also telling everyone to start at 5 years old,

59:17 right? If they use their influence to say there should be an age minimum and therefore if we put the age minimum in and we teach everybody to not tackle and practice at the college and high school level like we're doing then you would actually have future NFL players without CT. But changing the rules for the last two or three years of their career is not going to stop the CT train.

59:40 Yeah. Can helmets be any safer than they are or it just doesn't even matter how if what you do with it

59:46 a little bit. I mean, because the problem is again rotational acceleration. A helmet's not going to do that much for rotational acceleration.

59:52 Yeah, it's really good for linear. They're decent for linear. Um, so no, the helmet, I mean, the helmet stuff in the guardian cap is all a distraction. And USA Today just exposed that the the NFL has been not been fully transparent about how effective Guardian caps are.

1:00:07 And Guardian Cap, that is that the headband? That's that's the padding you put over it that they mandated for the preseason.

1:00:13 Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. They were saying that the Guardian cap was responsible for 50% reduction in concussions. Then they p then they studied it. Then the reviewers told them to isolate only the hits to the helmet, not just the face mask cuz the face mask has a pad on it. It turned out that reduction was no longer statistically significant when you just focused on when the they hit the guardian cap itself. And they never changed their talking points. And USA Today called them out for going, "Listen, your own research debunked your talking point.

1:00:41 Why are you still saying the talking point? Can you watch football? I watch it I watch it

1:00:48 for research. I like I I like to monitor like how they talk about the big hits and all that stuff.

1:00:53 Yeah. I don't watch it for fun. I don't carve out my afternoons anymore. I don't necessar I don't encourage my kids to watch. Um

1:01:00 uh I mean I still can watch it for fun because football has become completely sanitized, you know, from what we played. Like you no longer like they shine up and and and paint everyone's helmets every week now. So, you no longer see the gashes we used to see. There's no longer blood on people.

1:01:16 Yeah. Yeah, I know. I love the gash. Um, you know, the chip face masks and all that stuff. So, everybody looks fine and you It looks like a safe game until you see that big hit. Until you see in the like in the Patriots game Monday night, a guy's helmet chip off.

1:01:32 Yeah. And you realize, oh my god, if you hit someone hard enough to chip the surface of their helmet, like you have destroyed their brain.

1:01:38 Yeah. Yeah. There's no question about it. No, it's not. I mean, I I still love the players. I still support the players and all that stuff, but it's just

1:01:46 it's like you don't support war, but you love the soldiers. It's the same thing, you know? It's it's that's how I look at it's weird because I think about like the I just been so ever since going through this uh series and and studying what you've studied and stuff like that. I think about everything so much and like even down to like celebrating, we would always smash our heads against each other like in a friendly way, you know? It was like it's that was committing it. Like you get those aren't counted. You know, those are hard.

1:02:15 Practice is insane. You know, I most of my what I believe my concussions were happened in practice, you know, and so

1:02:23 Exactly. Why would the hell we hitting in practice at all? Like we can't you teach us how to play football without smashing our brains?

1:02:28 Exactly. W using your head-to-head butt people is interesting in part just because I just did my annual trainings for WWE wrestling and AW wrestling. In one of the videos I show is is Goldberg doing an interview about how this match he had with the Undertaker in Saudi Arabia. He head like to headbutt the locker before he went out to his match. And he did it this time in Saudi Arabia and he had done a while. He concussed himself

1:02:53 and then he went out and did the match gave himself another concussion and nearly killed the kicker by dropping on his head. Yeah. Yeah. The

1:03:01 old football habit he had. Yeah. It's so h it's so What would you do if your son was like, I'm going to play football?

1:03:09 I don't think at this point like I'm just surrounded by football players dying and suffering every day. So I would tell him no. Like there's other ways to have sports and build teams. And you mentioned theater. Like when people say like I learned all my best lessons in football, like I actually think I learned a ton of my lessons in theater too. Like Yeah. Yeah, you know, like I learned a lot in football, but I like, you know, there's

1:03:28 where the checks are too, by the way. Uh, so I was thinking things went through my head. I'm not going to say um the uh Yeah, I mean, it's it's it's just one of those things that like we need to learn how to teach kids all these valuable lessons without giving them brain damage. Like that's my position.

1:03:47 That is very that is very sweet, man. I love it. And so your organization um Concussion Legacy Foundation, you are looking for brains. You at all times. So you you have like a backlog of brains that you guys have to get.

1:04:02 We have a 15,000 person brain donation registry of people who signed up and told their families and so they're they're coming in now on a regular basis and then everyone else calls when their dad's in hospice or something. When when will this air?

1:04:13 Um this is going to air around Christmas. Okay. So we are by then we will have rebranded ourselves. Oh, okay. Please tell me about

1:04:22 on uh we are becoming be because of the advancements that we think are coming next year with CTE. We are becoming the concussion and CT foundation. We're going to give an equal billing to to CT equal billing to concussion and we'll be at concussion and CTTE.org.

1:04:39 Concussion CTE.org. And that's you guys obviously take donations, not just brains, but money. Um, and uh, yeah,

1:04:46 of our 1,700, uh, our families are predicting CT accurately about 60% of the time.

1:04:53 Wow, that's wild. Our NFL families are predicting it 90% of the time, but everyone else is 60. And to put that in perspective, less than 1% of the population has this.

1:05:03 So, do you ever say no if someone's like, I want to donate a brain or I do anything like that? Do you like that?

1:05:08 We have we turn we actually have to turn away more now than we can take because of that limit of doing 150 a year. There's certain criteria you have to meet of exposure. Like we're not we're no longer like interested in like the low exposure cases. Like we we need the CT tissue because we're sending it to researchers around the world trying to figure this thing out.

1:05:24 Oh, okay. So, you know, at risk at risk of making myself look stupid. You want my brain?

1:05:30 Do you need it? Yes, you would qualify. Unfortunately, I would I would qualify.

1:05:33 Dude, I'm signing up. You could totally have my [ __ ] brain. I don't need it. I don't understand why people are so It's trash

1:05:41 and I'm done with it. It's It's just going in the garbage. You might as well. We're not going to feel it when we go in there and get it.

1:05:46 Yeah. No, you lot of people. You really could, right? And a lot of people can a lot of people start playing football at such a young age. I'm definitely going to sign up. I'm putting you on my every at the end of the year. I do lots of donations. You guys are definitely going to be on the list. Make sure that you're donating to them. And before we go, there's one thing. If last podcast on the left, I feel like it would be rude of me to not bring this up. In our studies of doing this, studying evil people alive and dead, it is so often that serial killers and mass shooters have head trauma, have experienced some sort of head injury, were abused by their parents, uh, you know, and stuff like that. Have you ever thought about trying to get serial killers brains and studying them for CTE?

1:06:42 Yes. In fact, a lot of the mass shooters we've reached out to, including like we got Robert Card's brain, who killed 17 in Lewon, Maine,

1:06:50 who was a grenade instructor in National Guard. Yes. Um and he he had a lot of brain damage. Not CT, but a lot of different types of brain damage. So, yes. No, we we we do. And in fact, yeah, I give you my eyes and ears on this. Let's uh we can work together and and grab some.

1:07:06 Gary Ridgeway is about to die. He's uh the the go the Green River killer. He killed uh 50 people on record. Uh up to 80. He's about he's about to he's about to pass away. They're saying he's like days from death. So uh that's that's one to keep on the books. But yeah, Richard Ramirez, David Burkowitz, John Wayne Gasey, Martin Bryan, Fred West, Craft, um Rolling Pictton, the Hillside Strangler, Starkweather, these guys. It's like I went and asked my buddy who works on the show with me. That's like off the top of his head. He was just like boom boom boom boom boom boom boom.

1:07:36 And so it's very prevalent as far as like serial killers and spree shooters. I feel like this is something that

1:07:42 no we should do something with this. I mean it's traumatic brain is well known in the in the criminal you know convict community. You people in prison way overpop populated by uh over more like likely to have brain injury histories

1:07:55 than the population. All right, I'm giving you my brain. We're getting Gary Ridgeway's brain. I'm telling we're starting a new thing here, Chris. Um, Dr. Nitzky, sorry. I I like you a lot. Sorry called you, Chris. Um, but but Dr. Nitzky, thank you so much, guys. Go check out his book, Head Games. There's a documentary about the subject. Um, check that out. It's made by the same It was directed by the same fellow who directed Hoop Dreams, right?

1:08:22 Yeah. Steve James. Legend is awesome. Yeah. Legend. So, it's I haven't seen it myself. I did. I I can't wait to watch it. I just bought your book. I'm gonna So, next time I talk to you because I'm gonna find you and then uh

1:08:34 I'm glad you can still find it. That's great. Um where where can people find it if they want to check out

1:08:40 Oh, I mean, you know, like, you know, nowhere. I mean, you can get the Kindle. Get you can get the Kindle. I um

1:08:46 just read it. It's more important. Just Yeah. I mean, it's it's out of stock. I think my publisher went out of business. There's there's some in my closet. I'll send I'll send you a box.

1:08:53 Oh, wow. Okay. Oh, so that's not a horrible idea. Um, the Concussion Legacy Foundation is being rebranded to what again? How do people find

1:09:00 Concussion and CTE Foundation? Yes. And then you could just go ahead and follow Christopher Nitzky on Instagram. It stays very up to date. I love following your Instagram. All the work you've done with the brain donation registry with Dr. Cantu and Dr. Anne McKe um over at the Boston University has been incredible. I I honestly you're a hero to me and it is an an honor to talk to you for an hour and get to know you and uh keep doing your work, man. And anything you need from me or Last Podcast on the left, you hit me up. I got your back forever. Uh so

1:09:36 yeah, we we got you, man. Well, fundraisers, I'll show up and donate. We'll do a comedy show and raise some money for you. Anything you need, man. I'm [ __ ] all about it.

1:09:45 I'm in for all of it. And hit me up the next time you're back home, Bokeh. like um thrilled, honored to meet you. Appreciate you so much.

1:09:52 Back at you, buddy. Keep up the good work. Live from Northland. That's my man. I love that dude.

1:09:58 That's very interesting, man. Yeah. Yeah. So, please uh if you enjoyed this episode, I'm going to share with my nephew who plays high school football. They have him going both ways because he's really good. Um because he was related to me, so obviously he's going to be a good football player, but uh they So, but they have him going both ways. I'm going to try and talk him out of it. I'm going to make them listen to this episode as a way to like, "Hey man, at least just play one side of football. Um, share it with your families. Um, you know, anyone who has a a young boy who's thinking about getting into football, send them this episode. Uh, stop hitting kids." That is like that is the whole thing with with Chris Noitzky. Uh, thank you so much. Um, go donate to the Concussion Legacy Foundation. Be a part of it. Uh, this is something that is near and dear to my heart. I love you, Mr. Noiski. uh Dr. Noitzky and uh

1:10:48 everyone else who cares about this. Um also just lightly strangle kids. Yes. See, it's that easy.

1:10:56 Comr Simpson. Yeah. Uh this Sunday I'm going to be in Oxnard. Come and see me. If you got nothing to do, uh it's it's going to be amazing. That is going to be Sunday, January 4th, Oxnard, California, Levity Live. It's going to be me, Karolina Hidelgo, Holden McNeely, Jake Young, and Julia Johns. It's going to be a [ __ ] blast. Come hang out with me. Start your new year off right.

1:11:20 Yeah, baby. Happy New Year. All right. See you next year. It see you next year, you idiots.

1:11:26 Unless you already you're listening to this tomorrow. See you in 2026, you [ __ ] morons.

1:11:31 Unless it's already 2026 and you missed it cuz who really listened to a podcast on New Year's Eve?

1:11:35 You're late. I asked to release it on a different day. They're like, "No, we are contractly. We have to do it on the wrong day." Haha. So there you go.

1:11:42 Rock and roll. Hell yeah. Please be good people. Try

Questions about this episode

What is discussed in "Side Stories: CTE Stories w/ Dr. Chris Nowinski"?

In order: 0:00 Concussion, Concussion Legacy Foundation, Harvard University, Aaron Hernandez; 10:00 Aaron Hernandez, Harvard University, Mick Foley, Rally House; 20:00 Concussion, Dynamite Kid, Harley Race, Hulk Hogan; 30:00 Andre Waters, Bank CTE, Chip Collins, Concussion; 40:00 Aaron Hernandez, Concussion, Dartmouth, Play flag until 14; 50:00 Aaron Hernandez, Boston University, Brian Cox, Concussion; 1:00:00 Concussion, Concussion Legacy Foundation, Boston University, Fred West; 1:10:00 Concussion, Concussion Legacy Foundation, Holden McNeely, Jake Young.

What is mentioned in this Last Podcast On The Left episode?

75 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including CTE (Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy), NFL, Concussion, Dr. Chris Nowinski, Chris Benoit, Concussion Legacy Foundation. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "Side Stories: CTE Stories w/ Dr. Chris Nowinski"?

The episode runs 1 h 12 min; the transcript is about 14,785 words in 267 timestamped sections.

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