Transcript

New Details About Guthrie Ransom Notes as DEADLINE Passes, and Notable Disappearance Timeline Change

From Megyn Kelly · Episode page · Watch on YouTube

· 2 h 20 min · 26,882 words · 294 timestamped sections

This is the full, timestamped transcript of "New Details About Guthrie Ransom Notes as DEADLINE Passes, and Notable Disappearance Timeline Change", an episode of Megyn Kelly published February 6, 2026 (2 h 20 min, about 26,882 words). It mentions 14 people, works and ideas, including Nancy Guthrie, Megan Kelly, Ashley Banfield, Savannah Guthrie, FBI.

What this episode is about

New developments in the case of missing Nancy Guthrie reveal inconsistencies in messaging from law enforcement, raising questions about potential suspects, including her son-in-law. Additionally, an unusual Instagram message from Guthrie's family has sparked speculation regarding its intent and possible ties to her disappearance.

Key takeaways

  • Sheriff's obfuscation raises flags; transparency is crucial in missing person investigations.
  • Savannah Guthrie's family's odd Instagram plea blurs lines between desperation and strategic communication.
  • Cinematic references in real-life distress? Symbolism can be chillingly revealing.
  • When law enforcement and media narratives clash, who's keeping the story straight?
  • Dialing the drama: FBI stats remind us the majority of altercations don’t need guns.

Who speaks in this episode?

What is discussed, and when

  1. – 15:00: Silence of the Lambs, Megan Kelly, Ashley Banfield, Ruth Martin
  2. – 30:00: Ashley Banfield, Tomaso Cion, Nancy Guthrie, FBI
  3. – 45:00: Nancy Guthrie
  4. – 1:00:00: Relief Factor, Drop Dead Serious
  5. – 1:15:00: Nancy Guthrie, Ashley Banfield
  6. – 1:30:00: Nancy Guthrie
  7. – 2:15:00: Nancy Guthrie, Silence of the Lambs, Ruth Martin

Notable quotes from "New Details About Guthrie Ransom Notes as DEADLINE Passes, and Notable Disappearance Timeline Change"

  • Hey everyone, I'm Megan Kelly. Welcome to the Megan Kelly show. There's a lot going on this morning. we my team and I have been really busting my ass for you guys for the past 48 hours.
    about Megan Kelly · at
  • Arizona home on Saturday evening. and we'll get into the change of the timeline as well. Plus, we have the best law enforcement analyst in the world who will be here later in…
    about Ashley Banfield · at
  • On behalf of our family, we want to thank all of you for the prayers for our beloved mom, Nancy.
    about Nancy Guthrie · at
  • Sounds like a phrase we might have heard before. And online sleuths confirm indeed we probably have. They discovered that line is from the 1991 horror crime film Silence of the…
    about Silence of the Lambs · at
  • Familiar calling card. Young Katherine Martin, as we've said, is the only daughter of US Senator Ruth Martin, the Republican junior senator from Tennessee. And while her…
    about Ruth Martin · at
  • Firearm, but in today's America, defending yourself with deadly force can have legal consequences. According to FBI data, 99.9% of all altercations do not require lethal force.…
    about FBI · at
  • There's a note to TMZ, there an email, there's an email to TMZ, there's emails to two television stations that are local in Arizona, and then there's this one that was communicated directly to.
    about TMZ · at
  • What you're doing. You would be doing that even if your law enforcement source had not said that the brother-in-law may be the prime suspect. It's not inappropriate to ask…
    about Tomaso Cion · at

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

  • Nancy Guthrie — Person · Missing person / central subject of investigation · 8 mentions · first at
    The episode centers on the reported disappearance/kidnapping of Nancy Guthrie and analysis of law-enforcement statements, family messaging, and alleged ransom notes.
  • Megan Kelly — Person · Host / main speaker · 3 mentions · first at
    Hosts the episode, frames the timeline and evidentiary questions, and interviews Ashley Banfield while offering analysis of law-enforcement messaging and the alleged ransom notes.
  • Ashley Banfield — Person · Main guest / crime reporter · 6 mentions · first at
    Provides reporting and interpretation of law-enforcement actions and statements; her exclusive reporting about a potential suspect and seized vehicle is debated and referenced by the sheriff.
  • Savannah Guthrie — Person · Referenced public figure / family spokesperson (via posts) · 3 mentions · first at
    Referenced as the NBC News host whose mother is missing; her Instagram post and family video statements are analyzed for wording, tone, and possible law-enforcement guidance.
    Take. But we've got to begin with one of the more bizarre developments in this entire case. We showed you earlier this week the Instagram message that Savannah and her siblings…
  • Tomaso Cion — Person · Referenced individual / alleged investigative focus · 2 mentions · first at
    Discussed as Savannah Guthrie’s brother-in-law and Nancy Guthrie’s son-in-law; Banfield reports law enforcement may view him as a potential prime suspect, which the sheriff disputes publicly while not clearing anyone.
  • Derek Ka Caya — Person · Referenced suspect (separate alleged scammer) · 1 mention · first at
    Named as the person arrested for allegedly sending ransom-demand texts/calls to the family (described as unrelated to the main disappearance), illustrating opportunistic fraud complicating the investigation.
    Message and also made a 9-second phone call to some member of the Guthrie family who was just a fraudster. He had nothing to do with the other ransom notes per law enforcement…
  • Jodie Foster — Person · Referenced actor (film comparison) · 1 mention · first at
    Mentioned as the actor who played Clarice Starling in The Silence of the Lambs, used to contextualize the phrase “Talk to her and you’ll see” appearing in the family’s message.
    Movie's about. Most of but some of our audience is younger and may not. The main character, Clarice Starling, is played by Jodie Foster.
  • Ruth Martin — Person · Referenced fictional character (film comparison) · 4 mentions · first at
    Identified as the fictional U.S. senator and mother in The Silence of the Lambs whose plea includes the line “Talk to her and you’ll see,” paralleling the Guthrie family’s phrasing.

Companies & orgs

  • FBI — Company · Investigating authority · 1 mention · first at
    Central to the investigation of Nancy Guthrie's disappearance, providing guidance and resources.
  • TMZ — Company · Media outlet · 4 mentions
    Received ransom notes related to the Nancy Guthrie case, contributing to the public discourse.

Products & tech

  • Drop Dead Serious — Product · Podcast mentioned · 2 mentions · first at
    Hosted by Ashley Banfield, referenced in the context of crime reporting and analysis.
    On social media today. it is one of many, many, many developments that we need to go through. We're going to try to unpack what this means and more with Drop Deadad Serious…

Media & podcasts

  • Silence of the Lambs — Media · Referenced work · 6 mentions · first at
    Mentioned in the context of the Guthrie family's public message, drawing parallels to a fictional kidnapping scenario.

Sponsors

  • Relief Factor — Product · Sponsor product · 3 mentions · first at
    Advertised as a solution for daily aches and pains during the podcast.
    Relief Factor might help give you your mobility back. Relief Factor is 100% drug-free, and it targets the inflammation that causes pain so you can move better, feel better, and actually enjoy life again. Try the 3-week quick.
  • Burna — Product · Sponsor product · 2 mentions · first at
    Promoted as a less lethal self-defense option during the podcast.
    Have legal consequences. According to FBI data, 99.9% of all altercations do not require lethal force. And that's exactly why so many are turning to Burna. Burna is amazing.…

Full transcript with timestamps

Hey everyone, I'm Megan Kelly. Welcome to the Megan Kelly show. There's a lot going on this morning. I mean, we my team and I have been really busting my ass for you guys for the past 48 hours or 24 hours just to make sure that we have everything lined up for today because there was a lot at that presser. There was a lot at that presser about the missing Nancy Guthrie and it was not consistent with previous messaging from the sheriff's department. Obviously, the sheriff has reason to obfiscate and what he obfiscates on is potentially telling.

Um, he quite clearly was referencing Ashley Banfield's reporting a couple of times in that presser yesterday without naming her. He definitely seemed to attack her. She's here and we will ask her directly whether she continues to stand by her exclusive reporting that police consider Nancy Guthri's son-in-law, Savannah's brother-in-law, the man married to Savannah's bru uh sister, Annie, uh Tomas, as someone who quote may be the prime suspect in this case. She'll update us in 2 minutes when she's here. The 84year-old mother of the NBC News host Savannah Guthrie remains missing. She was last seen at her Arizona home on Saturday evening. Um, and we'll get into the change of the timeline as well. Plus, we have the best law enforcement analyst in the world who will be here later in the hour with his take. But we've got to begin with one of the more bizarre developments in this entire case. We showed you earlier this

week the Instagram message that Savannah and her siblings posted to their mother uh and to her suspected capttors. They dropped it on Wednesday evening and we talked about how it was strange. This is not a judgment of how they handled themselves. This is an observation about the odd messaging and whether it means something, whether it was potentially directed by the kidnapper to be an acknowledgement of of something. It was just so odd in the way it was presented and phrased. And that could have been completely just at law enforcement's direction for reasons we don't understand or it could have been some sort of a signal that was asked for by a kidnapper or it could have just been the family's choices while under duress. We don't know but we're trying to figure out what we can.

This part in particular is coming back to surface and we'll explain why and pay particularly close attention to the ending. Watch. On behalf of our family, we want to thank all of you for the prayers for our beloved mom, Nancy. We feel them and we continue to believe that she feels them, too. Our mom is a kind, faithful, loyal, fiercely loving woman of goodness and light. She's funny, spunky, and clever. She has grandchildren that adore her and crowd around her and cover her with kisses. She loves fun and adventure.

She is a devoted friend. She is full of kindness and knowledge. Talk to her and you'll see. Talk to her and you'll see. It's kind of an interesting phrase. And notice how Savannah's sister Annie seems to take a deep breath at that very moment. It sounds like a phrase we might have heard before. And online sleuths confirm indeed we probably have. They discovered that line is from the 1991 horror crime film Silence of the Lambs. Before we play the clip, let me tell you what the movie's about. Most of you know, but some of our audience is younger and may not. The main character, Clarice Starling, is played by Jodie Foster.

Starling is investigating the kidnapping of Katherine Martin, the 25-year-old daughter of the fictional senator Ruth Martin. Catherine, the daughter, has been kidnapped by Buffalo Bill, a serial killer who skins his female victims. In the scene where the phrase talk to her and you'll see is used, it's the kidnapping victim's mother, Senator Ruth Martin, sending a message to her daughter's captor. Watch

our top story for this morning. Katherine Martin, the 25-year-old daughter of Senator Ruth Martin, listed first as a missing person, is now believed to have been kidnapped by the serial killer known only as Buffalo Bill. Memphis police sources indicate that the missing girl's blouse has been identified, sliced up the back in what has become a kind of grim, all too familiar calling card. Young Katherine Martin, as we've said, is the only daughter of US Senator Ruth Martin, the Republican junior senator from Tennessee. And while her kidnapping is not at this point considered to be politically motivated, nevertheless, it has stirred the government to its highest levels. Reach for comment on the ski slopes of Stow, Vermont, the president himself said to be, and I quote, intensely concerned. Just moments ago, Senator Martin takes this dramatic personal plea.

I'm speaking now to the person who is holding my daughter. Catherine is very gentle and kind. Talk to her and you'll see.

You heard that right at the end. Let's watch him back to back. She is full of kindness and knowledge. Talk to her and you'll see. I'm speaking now to the person who is holding my daughter. Katherine is very gentle and kind. Talk to her and you'll see. Both reference how kind the person is and end with talk to her and you'll see. Now, we're not the only ones who noticed this and it's getting a lot of attention on social media today. Um it is one of many, many, many developments that we need to go through. We're going to try to unpack what this means and more with Drop Deadad Serious podcast host and long-term crime reporter among other kinds of reporting Ashley Banfield.

Don't miss a moment. Subscribe to this show on YouTube and follow me on Insta, Facebook, and X. Let's be honest, America can still be a dangerous place, and you cannot afford to wait for help when you need it. Sure, you could use a firearm, but in today's America, defending yourself with deadly force can have legal consequences. According to FBI data, 99.9% of all altercations do not require lethal force. And that's exactly why so many are turning to Burna. Burna is amazing. It's proudly American. It's hand assembled in Fort Wayne, Indiana. And it's less lethal self-defense launchers. They're trusted by hundreds of government agencies, law enforcement departments, and private security companies. Over 600,000 BurnA pistols have been sold, mostly to private citizens who refuse to be victims. Burner launchers fire rockh hard kinetic rounds and also powerful tear gas and pepper projectiles up to

you. Capable of stopping a threat from up to 60 ft away. No background checks, no waiting periods. And Burna can ship straight to your door. Take responsibility. Protect your future. Visit burna.com right now or your local sportsman's warehouse. By rnna.com or your local sportsman's warehouse. Visit now and be prepared to defend. Ashley, welcome back. It is an eerie similarity and the choice of words could be completely coincidental or it might not be. It could be something the FBI suggested, you know, something much in the way if you ever watched that movie Contagion during the pandemic, uh, starring Matt Damon. It had what the CDC would do in the case of a pandemic so exact. You knew that there was definitely a playbook from which the CDC had behaved and that they had shared that playbook with the filmmakers in this movie that was made long before the COVID pandemic. And it did make me

wonder whether in preparing Silence of the Lambs, the filmmakers consulted with an FBI hostage negotiator, that kind of person who gave them the kind of messaging that they would typically give the the family members of a kidnap victim. And it made its way into the script and it may have made its way into Savannah's script too in quite the similar manner.

Very astute because in fact Jonathan Demi who created Silence of the Lambs did confer with the FBI did have multiple investigators with the FBI and agents with the FBI actually consult on the movie. John Douglas, one of the most famous profilers, worked on Silence of the Lamb. So, it's entirely possible that there is an age-old playbook um with all sorts of options and suggestions for agents to use when trying to make communications like this. And we were told by the FBI that they were working in concert with the Guthrie family, as they should be, um to help guide them through this extraordinary process. They were very careful also to say that in the end, all scripting is up to the final decision of the family. um you know who's going to read it, which is obvious, but the guidance uh was was clearly annotated yesterday. Uh when they said that they were there, we saw them go in with the ring light and the

um Apple tripod uh the iPhone tripod to help set up the actual shoot for them as well. So, it's it's maybe not that surprising that perhaps pieces of a of an FBI playbook were used maybe unknowingly to the agents today that had been used, you know, decades ago in the creation of Silence of the Lambs. H it does make you wonder what else in the messaging that we've heard from the family because of course last night Cameron Guthrie the the brother of Savannah and Andy issuing his own direct to camera statement just him without the sisters and in in both of the video messages and in Savannah's Instagram post that was written which preceded both of these video messages.

There's just there are odd phrases that really have us wondering whether they have had more communication with a potential kidnapper than they're letting on, which would be totally appropriate. Obviously, they're not going to tell all of us everything that's happening. But her Instagram post sounded a little unlike Savannah. For for one thing, Ashley, it was not capitalized, which okay, it's it's a social media thing. You could make the case that a lot of people don't capitalize, but Savannah normally does. She does normally capitalize. We went back and checked her Instagram and her Twitter and much like yours truly, and I imagine you too, most journalists would capitalize. We're not 20 and we're just sort of in the business. So, it's like we pay attention to those things.

But on this post of all posts, like the most important post of her life to date, this is the one that came out the night before the video of the three siblings. She posted on Tuesday evening, this is all without caps, even at the beginning of the very first sentence. We believe in prayer. We believe in voices raised in unison, in love, in hope. We believe in goodness. We believe in humanity. Above all, we believe in him. Him is capitalized. Nothing else is. Thank you. Again, the beginning of a sentence not capitalized. Um, for lifting your prayers with ours for our beloved mom, our dearest Nancy. the mentioning of her name. Clearly, that was suggested by law enforcement trying to get her to humanize her. Nancy, Nancy, she has a name. She she has kids. Uh, and goes on and on. And then it ends with a quote, a Bible quote, and then listen to how she cites cites it. She she writes in quotes, "He," that's capitalized, "will

keep in perfect peace those whose hearts are steadfast, trusting in the Lord," Lord is capitalized. End quote. A verse of Isaiah for all time, for all of us. Bring her home. You know Savannah. I know Savannah, too. That doesn't sound like her. A verse of Isaiah for all time, for all of us. I don't know whether this is all coded, Ashley. But the messages are being very carefully coordinated, it seems to me, and may just be what law enforcement is telling them or could be responsive to some sort of a demand. Well, you know, Savannah is actually pretty spiritual. Um, I'm not sure that she would have written the messageual. She's very spiritual. She wrote a whole book about

But but the phrasiology out of the quote, a verse of Isaiah for all time, for all of us,

you know what that also could be is for her mom because um mom is very faithful. Mom goes to church and that might have been something uh again if we are to believe that this ransom effort is even true. I have my serious doubts about it. Yesterday, the FBI uh said something in the press conference that I picked up on very quickly. They were asked about the deadlines, the second deadline, and the FBI agent said in a normal kidnapping case,

there would be contact by now. Um they have to take it seriously and it's why it's prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law and the guy that they pulled in in California is going to have the book thrown at him. I think it's 8 to 10 is the minimum there for prison because it is uh

just FYI for those who who didn't listen to AM update uh there was a separate man who was arrested this morning or yesterday morning for for demanding a ransom of Annie and Tomas via text message and also made a 9-second phone call to some member of the Guthrie family who was just a fraudster. He had nothing to do with the other ransom notes per law enforcement nor with this case at all. We believe he was just trying to glom on to someone's tragedy and torture the family further and he's now under arrest. Keep going.

Yeah, that's Derek Ka Caya, I don't know. C A L L E L L A. Uh allegedly now charged in this and very seriously too. That's interstate commerce when you use the lines like that, using email, using phone lines to cross state lines and also and you know interfering with law enforcement. All sorts of things that could throw the book at him for that. But I would I would without question expect some prison time for this guy if he's guilty of these crimes. But, you know, to hear in the other notes, cuz there it's a little complicated, right?

There's a note to TMZ, there an email, there's an email to TMZ, there's emails to two television uh stations that are local in Arizona, and then there's this one that was communicated directly to the family and cor communicated directly to Savannah's sister Annie and her husband Thomaso. So, um that is fascinating to hear though that they are focusing on the emailed um ransom notes, but they also indicated not very clearly but slightly clearly in the press conference that those three that went to the outlets seem to be from the same person and they noted a couple things.

They did for the first time say that they're identical. For the first time, the FBI confirmed in response to a question that they it is the same note. Um Jim Fitzgerald, who's been on with us every day formerly of the FBI, has said that's the one one thing he really wanted to know was was it exactly the same, you know, or could there have been like some sort of a copycat or did they for some reason the FBI yesterday said all three the same?

I have my questions about the details in them as well because the there were details released yesterday about flood lights, broken flood lights potentially. Um

wait, stand by. I definitely want to get into that. I do. But let me just finish up on the messaging from the family. Then I want to talk about your exclusive reporting and then I definitely want to get into these notes cuz they're they they're very interesting. Um, one other thing on the messaging. We noticed that I mean the family I think is being very disciplined on exactly what it says and how it says it. We we talked yesterday about how very clearly Savannah Guthrie knows how to speak at ease directly to camera unscripted. She chose not to do that. Quite clearly they're being really careful about if somebody's got her, not triggering him, saying what needs to be said to reach him in the best way possible to actually get a response. You know, they they're desperate. You can see in the family's messaging for interaction with this person if he exists and has their mom, you know.

Yeah. Exactly. I want proof of life and they're they're desperate to have a communication because very clearly Harvey Leven made this clear yesterday on on various appearances. The the ransom note said Thursday night is your first deadline and Harvey suggested Monday is your second deadline. And it certainly sounds like if they didn't meet the Thursday night deadline, the price was going up or

by Monday was Yeah. the price or the consequence some sort of negative consequence.

And then and then by Monday they were suggesting without saying it that that's when you know they said that would be the end for her. That was that was the clear implication. Um, but in any event, I just want to show you the messaging that both Savannah and now Cameron have offered in their back-to-back Instagram messages here. And this again was Cameron alone last night.

This is Cameron Guthrie. I'm speaking for the Guthrie family. Whoever is out there holding our mother, we want to hear from you. We haven't heard anything directly. We need you to reach out and we need a way to communicate with you so we can move forward. But first, we have to know that you have our mom. We want to talk to you and we are waiting for contact.

Okay, so that's what we heard from Cameron himself last night. Now listen to the comparison.

As a family, we are doing everything that we can. We are ready to talk. Whoever is out there holding our mother, we want to hear from you. We want to hear from you and we are ready to listen. Please reach out to us.

We haven't heard anything directly. We need you to reach out and we need a way to communicate with you so we can move forward.

We need to know without a doubt that she is alive and that you have her. But first, we have to know that you have our mom. We went to talk to you and we are waiting for contact.

This poor family is desperate for someone if they actually have their mother to to be in touch to

it's abject make it possible for them to interact. It's torture. It's ongoing torture.

This is yet another scammer um or another alleged scammer. Uh it is abject torture. It is why the penalties in the code are so steep for this. Not just because of the interstate commerce, but because of the inter, you know, the the interjection into law enforcement's efforts, but also just the sheer torture that you put these people through.

Yeah, it's so awful. And you and I both have our doubts about whether it's even real. Uh so it does, if I had to put money down, I'd say this is somebody intentionally torturing the family, trying to scam them, trying to get money from them in their most vulnerable, painful moment. And by the way, if that's true, then it means the real kidnapper, murderer, whoever hurt Nancy, however they did it.

Yeah. Perpetrator is out there watching the whole thing, letting them suffer, too. Like, it's not enough that they did something to the mother. They're letting the torture go on day after day after day. When I saw those three people, Ashley, the other night on camera, all I could think was these are torture victims. That's what's happened to them.

Yeah. And so of And we don't often see this, right? because this is a very high-profile case, but in so many of the true crime cases that we covered, this is the reality. This is what people go through when their loved ones go missing. Do they get a high-profile ransom note sent to TMZ? No. But oftentimes, they are left just as terrified and just as traumatized, especially if it's their children, and you don't see as much of it on the media.

Yeah. Okay. So, let's get to your reporting because it was very clearly the gorilla in the room yesterday at that presser where it came up three different times. Four actually, four total with the sheriff saying, "We have no suspects, no persons of interest, and then some broadsides quite clearly I thought at you. I think you agreed. I watched your show this morning without naming you." Um, and some of the media are piling on, oh, if these influencers looking for clicks are reporting, you know, irresponsibly, that's You are not an influencer looking for clicks. I've known you 20 years. That's not who you are. Um, so people are dismissing this at their own peril. It is everyone there, even the sheriff said, "No one's been cleared. Everyone's a suspect. So, it is not inappropriate to start where all law enforcement starts, which is with the family, and work out. That's what you're doing. You would be doing

that even if your law enforcement source had not said that the brother-in-law may be the prime suspect. It's not inappropriate to ask questions about the family. It's actually imperative. So, here's what the sheriff said. Let's listen to SAT 19B.

Nobody's eliminated, but we just really don't have enough to say this is our suspect. This is our guy. We know or our gal. We just don't know that. and and it's really kind of reckless to report that someone is a suspect when when they could very well be a victim. It just I I I bring to you to the media I plead with you to be be careful of what it is we put out there because we don't have anybody here listed as a suspect and you could actually be doing some some damage to the case but you can do some damage to that individual too.

This is social media is kind of a kind of an ugly world sometimes. Okay. So, Ashley, are you standing by your exclusive reporting broken two days ago now that top law enforcement official?

Yeah. Real early on. Three. Okay. Who's an impeccable source told you that Tomaso Cion, who was married to Annie Guthrie, Savannah's sister, may be the prime suspect in this case. that

at this time and that the car that was towed and impounded was Annie Guthy's car.

Yeah. The word that was used was towed and taken into evidence. I noticed that that was actually confirmed yesterday. Car was towed and is being processed as per warrant. That was said by the sheriff

sort of. He he he didn't say it was Annie's and and the way he said it actually raised me a bunch of questions. The car and he made it sound like it was at the crime scene which is odd. I don't know that Annie Guthri's car was at the mother's house at any point, you know. Actually, here we have it. S. Let's let's listen to how he described it.

The car uh the the the car that was at the home uh it's just standard investigative practices. It's part of the search warrant scene court orders. We we pull it out of there and do our scene processing with the vehicle. part of the search warrant at the home. That would speak to it being at NY's.

It just said at the home and they've been at two homes. Law enforcement has been at two homes. And my source said definitively car was towed and is in evidence. That's three days ago.

And that it was Annie's. That it was Annie. That's and said Annie's car. Did not say the car. Said Annie's car. The sister's car was towed and is in evidence. And he only would say the car. He didn't deny it. He didn't deny a lot of stuff yesterday. He took pot shots and I get it.

Okay, but let's get to the big let's get to the big headline about Tomas and what your source cuz I I heard your show. Have you been checking in with your source on that piece of your reporting

multiple times per day and yesterday I was told by the same source still on target. And then he said,

"Let me put it to you this way. If they're taking shots at you, you're standing on the target."

That was his words. So no wiggling, no backing down. No backing down. No, no change.

And let me ask you this. Is he, Even though he's a I'm just saying he, I don't know whether it's he or she, but is this person, you say a top law enforcement source, but is this person in a position to know about what's actually happening in this case?

Yes. And then after the break, um, I was informed on day two that the sheriff's department tightened up like a noose, angry about leaks. And so if my information wasn't uh accurate, why would anybody be worried about leaks?

Who would care? Ashley B, right? It must be just some influencer. So that also strengthened uh this information. I didn't need the strengthening. Thank you. Given the level uh of this source of mine. And by the way, I got asked yesterday, Megan, by somebody in the mainstream media. Well, you're not working for a main network now. Um, so have your standards dropped out, right? Well, I've been at it 38 years. I don't think I'd throw my entire four decades away for one story. You know, I I get it. People have to have their own headlines, too. Um, but I did find that pretty offensive. No. No. My standard.

I've noticed something else. Some people who consider themselves close to Savannah, I've observed, have been particularly dismissive of this report. And I don't know if that's out of loyalty to her, like she wouldn't like this or whether they've actually been in touch with her and she doesn't like this. Either way, with all due respect to Savannah and the family, it's fair reporting. And you can't you certainly could not go by what Savannah wants you to report in covering this case. of course she'd be inclined to defend her family, even her in-law family members, and that there there's no question you wouldn't depend upon one of the victims of the crime to guide your investigation as a reporter of the crime. So, I've just noticed there's a strain of people who I know consider themselves friends of hers who have been particularly disdainful and are trying to move the coverage elsewhere and that

just can't happen. Like, well, that would be that would be how this game integrity of what I do. Would I change the way I work because of who I'm covering? No, unfortunately. And it's been very difficult. We've had to cover I remember one of the first stories that I covered in 1988 was someone I knew uh was nicked by the feds for uh crossber drug dealing and I had to put it on the news. That was one of my very first stories as a cub reporter and it was like well baptism by fire here we go. And so out it went exactly as the police had reported it to to us at CJBN in Canora, Ontario. Um, but yeah, that that would be a questionable move in in, you know, journalistic scruples if I decided to couch the reporting because of who I'm reporting on. And it's hard. It is hard. But I will say this, law enforcement doesn't tell us everything. That's the way it works. In fact, I think that's what the sheriff

actually even said yesterday. I wrote his quote down. Yeah. Yeah. He was asked, "Are you purposely withholding um information because of the active investigation that might be leading you in a particular direction?" And his answer was this. You know, this is no different than any criminal investigation that we conduct here. Went on to say, "Law enforcement's conducted investigations since 1865 in Pima County. We are always mindful of what is in front of us and what we should release and can release. There's legal guidelines that guide us, but there's also strategy to strategy. I'll leave that for you to determine." So that is the way it works. We're not idiots. They don't have to tell us everything. But there is also a balance between the public interest and transparency. And we are always working that balance. In KBER, they flat out lied to us. They flat out lied to us. There's no concern

for the public. There's no This is a targeted attack on these four kids. That was There was an absolute concern to the public. For six weeks, Brian Cobberger, a maniacal quadruple murderer, was out there and maybe eyeballing other friends of his at Washington State University. There's a lawsuit that was going on and we know that on the 19th of December in 2022, they identified his DNA as he is the holder of the DNA from the knife sheath. December 19th, what did they do on December 20th, the next day? They recorded a video. The police chief, James Fry, the Moscow PD recorded a video of himself and posted it on the Moscow police website saying, "We have no suspects." Let me read it for you.

These are his words. No suspect suspects identified and only vetted information that does not hinder the investigation will be released to the public. We encourage referencing official releases for accurate and updated progress. They were already chasing him across the country at this point. This guy has full access to every state between Washington State and Pennsylvania with his dad as he's crossing the country. But that's what they chose to tell us. So, what is the public's interest in knowing what reporters do and what the police do? We all have a job to do and there is a balance. But there are a lot of people in that neighborhood um where Nancy Guthrie lives who are very, very afraid who said there's never been crime here.

It's a safe place. We're really worried. Well, let me tell you something else. CNN had absolutely no problem. none whatsoever. And going with the flimsiest, I'm mentioning them because there was an anchor over there who was ripping on this, the flimsiest um reporting and sourcing possible when it came to Russia gate. Same conclusion times 100 for MSNBC. Um so if it anything that would reflect negatively on President Trump, they don't need double sourcing. They don't need on there sources at all. Same for the New York Times for that matter. So now suddenly it's just because it's Ashley Banfield and she's in the quote influencer realm that that's not an okay like a top law enforcement official with whom you've had a relationship for years whom you call impeccable now suddenly it's it's suspect for Yeah. for over a decade. So this is

this is fair game. Uh and I'm resent what's being said about you. Yeah, I do too. But okay, I get it. I got big big girl pants on. But I will also say this that things have changed um many times over in the years that I've been doing this. I've gone from broadcast news, local news, cable news, you know, and then I'm now doing podcasting. But um the way it used to be was that if you don't have three sources, you can't take it to air. That has changed. Now it is the caliber of your source. Now it is really who that source is, the trustworthiness of that source that is often times uh completely acceptable to all mainstream outlets.

Right? So I am a little surprised on this one uh that that I'm getting the the flak, but especially especially with the sheriff's answers.

It makes sense when you I I don't believe this person is your source, but I'm just going to do a hypothetical here. Let's say the source is Cash Patel. It's obviously not him because he hasn't been in law enforcement for 10 years. But anyway, let's just say it's Cash Patel. It's the director of the FBI.

Do you need two sources? I think you're good. Right. Let's say the the source is actually this sheriff, Sheriff Nanos, who's saying one thing to the media, but saying something to you behind the You don't need two sources that you're good. So, of course, you're fine. It you're right. It depends on the caliber of the source. You know, there's something else I, you know, that people should know as well, and I don't believe this to be the truth at all, but sometimes,

uh, the media is used as well, and sourcing is dropped to get stuff out there that may agitate or make suspects nervous. That's also a tactic that's used. I don't believe that's the case here. But, you know, people should realize that under the law, I don't think a lot of people do know this, if you're brought in for questioning, the uh law enforcement is allowed to lie to you in order to elicit statements that may be either in congruent or congrent with uh maybe another suspect. That is part of strategy. And listen, I give them big grace for that. It's a hard job. And I have never castigated law enforcement for using that tactic. It is legal. You are allowed to do that in law enforcement. So lying to us and the public, we're that's allowed. But we also have a job to do when we are put under gag orders like happened in the Idaho case for 2 and a half years. Um that's not transparency in American

jurist prudence, right? And so either which way do you want it? Do you want reporters to do their work or do you want them to do their work and then you know take pot shots at them when they do? Again, there is this

down. We're not looking for a pat on the head. Th this is not a this is not an industry you get into to be liked.

Okay. To the contrary. It goes a different way for most of us. I want to play you this soundbag because I thought this was very telling. The sheriff was asked again repeatedly about do you have a suspect? You have a person of interest. No, no, no, no, no. We don't.

No. We haven't identified different we don't have one. No, it's we haven't reporter put it on the line

and said let's talk about the son-in-law. I mean, it was explicitly like, "What about the son-in-law?" Listen to the sheriff's answer here. S 19c.

Are you actively investigating the the son-in-law in this case? You said you haven't eliminated everybody.

Have you eliminated him or come close to it? We're actively looking at everybody we come across in this case. Everybody. It's so cliche, but everybody's still a suspect in our eyes. That's just how we look at things and think as as cops. Does that mean we have a prime suspect? No. and and and the family has been very cooperative. Uh very they've they've they've done everything we've asked of them and and we want that relationship to continue. Um and sometimes people can be mean out there and and and that can really harm us and harm our efforts.

We want that relationship to continue. Yeah. Ashley, there was another piece that I picked up on as well. Uh, another like, by the way, some really good questions from from the reporters in that room. I have to say, as I was listening, I thought, well, they're on their ball today. One reporter asked, "Have you been in communication with anyone you believe to be the kidnapper?" Long pause, then a sigh. You know, it comes back to what we talked about. No one is eliminated, but we really don't have enough to say this is our suspect.

This is our guy. this is our gal. But the long pause in the sigh uh that was telling to me as well.

He was he was getting together his answer because it did seem to me as well like he was thinking well we we might have we we might have spoken to the person who did this. Um but I'm not going to reveal that to you.

Yeah. So you know I give him grace as well Megan because honestly I said this before I'll say it again. It is not easy to do his job. It's not easy in the best of days. Um, it's not easy to stand in front of the national media that is demanding answers, asking for press conferences, peppering you live with questions and live is not easy. You don't get a mulligan and then try to, you know, do your um tap dance uh to to protect your investigation and still be as transparent as you can.

Frankly, the sheriff has been more forthcoming than most law enforcement have been in recent cases of note. No one here is is ripping on the sheriff. He's he's doing the best he can and he's trying to be as transparent as he can without blowing his investigation, which is the most important thing. If they do have a suspect behind the scenes, he's obviously not going to tell us that and we understand that. It makes sense until he's ready. But look, we you and I are in a different business and the public has to understand that, too. We are actually are in the business of figuring out what's real and that's a different business than him trying to actually solve the case and arrest somebody.

No, we listen to nuance. We listen to signs that aren't just words. We listen to everything. thing. And there was something that happened yesterday and I cross referenced it with a report in the New York Times last night and that is he was asked um who dropped the who dropped Nancy off on Saturday night because the sheriff said it three ways. He said first he said I think I might have it out of order, but these three things were said. Annie dropped Nancy off. Then he said Annie and Tomaso dropped Nancy off. Then he said Tomaso dropped Nancy off. So the reporter in the room actually said, "What is it? Which one is it? You've said it three ways." And the answer was, I mean, it was just sort of alarming to me. I just thought, this is so weird. He said, just family, we'll go with family.

But then he did tell the New York Times stop 13. Yeah. Listen to it. It's incredible. It's weird.

You know, there's also conflicting reports about who was the last person to actually see Nancy and drive her home. We know she took an Uber to Annie's house, but can you confirm whether it was Annie or her son-in-law Tomaso who took her home that night? I think uh the the timeline that the sheriff provided was a family member, but just family. We're going to go with family.

I don't know what that means. We're going to go with family. I don't know what that means, but he did confirm

he was on the record with the New York Times the day before saying it was Tomas.

Absolutely. And they printed that last night that he told the New York Times it was uh Tomaso. Yeah. So, I don't know why the re like Look, I have my theories, but why would you withhold that when you said it already three different ways? Why don't just clear it up and not leave this obiscation for people like you and me to talk about saying well that are you trying to deflect from him in some way? Is it is it strategy? Is it kindness? Whatever it is, it's odd.

And just for the listening audience, here it is from the New York Times. The day before he said, "We're going to go with family." Uh Mrs. Guthri's son-in-law, Tomas Oion, dropped her off and ensured she made it inside safely before leaving. The sheriff added he was on the record to the New York Times which was a shift from his earlier messaging. So clearly he wanted it out there that it was Tomas and then by the time they got to yesterday's presser he had shifted back to quote family now

just going to go with family which is weird like we're just going to go with family. It's an odd way to put it.

Yeah. Like what does it mean? Okay. Okay, now here's the other thing that's really bothering me about I agree with you that the reporters, many of them did a good job, but there were some glaring questions that were not asked. The timeline was changed dramatically on Sunday morning. What this sheriff had been saying to us before was that um at 11:00 or just after 11:00 a.m. on Sunday morning, the family was notified by a friend in the church who noticed Nancy didn't attend and they went over to her house and about an hour later they called 911.

That's that was the story this morning. That created a lot of conration. when we got to the

and and many people said why did it take an hour? How how do you like especially seeing blood outside of the house like Brian Engine got on camera who would take an hour? Um now then last night or yesterday at the presser that totally shifted. He said they discovered they got to the house and discovered she was missing at 11:57 a.m.

So we've lost a whole hour now, the controversial hour. and called law enforcement 5 minutes later at 12:03.

Yeah, I think it was 7 minutes later. Sorry, my math is off. My math is off. Okay, seven is lightning fast.

That's fast. Okay, so that it's a dramatic difference. But here, let's just listen. Here is what he had said prior to yesterday. This was the story. Sad 18.

Sometime earlier that morning, they got a call from somebody at the church who said, "Hey, your your mom's not here." Um, the family went to the house. I'm thinking they they spent some time looking for her themselves before they called us. So, I'm guessing maybe they got there around 11. So, they did some searching and realized we need some help and they called 911.

She was dropped off at 9:30 and she was found to be missing at about 11:00 Sunday morning.

I know that when we got there, we got there, the family was already there and they were they had already spent some time looking as you would expect. Um probably we got an hour delay there from them. Uh not anything intentional, just that, you know, they went and looked and made some calls and then they decided we better call 911.

And at 11:56 a.m., uh the family checks on Nancy and discovers her missing. And at 12:03 p.m., 911 has called in to the Picata Sheriff's Department. What? Because just to just to underscore it here, first it's they got a call from a friend at the church around 11:10. Then he says it was at about 11:00. Then he told you that middle clip is on your show. He says they found out about 11 and it was about an hour delay before they called 911. Now, yesterday he says they checked on Nancy and discovered her missing at 11:57, right? Is it I keep 57? That's the right number. I don't have enough number. Yeah, 57.

So, so what do you mean? Because we've also in the midst of all that had both the Daily Mail and Brian Enton yesterday told us as well reporting that Nancy Guthrie wasn't going to church physically anymore and hadn't been since the COVID pandemic. That she'd been joining the live stream the church offers and participating from her home. Moreover, the Daily Mail reports it wasn't a Zoom situation where the congregants could see who was joining virtually. It was just a live stream being blasted out by the church, outgoing only, and therefore no one would be aware of whether Nancy was participating or not. So, how did we go from she talked to a friend who was concerned at the church, which you heard him say on camera there, and they took him an hour, and then they called 911 to now it's they checked on Nancy and discovered her missing and within moments called 911. I think these are all things that lead to an even bigger

mystery and a little confusion. I always give law enforcement grace when there's so much going on and there's an exigent circumstance and now all these ransom notes which have taken law enforcement's direction elsewhere. Let's be honest, this is awful. These ransom notes, especially the one in California, if this guy is guilty of this, it has taken their attention away. But there it's a, you know, fog of war is not easy. I can understand how there'd be communication breakdown. There's other agencies coming in sharing of information. Maybe telephone, you know, the game of telephone makes mistakes, but I do think that it adds to another element of confusion about this.

I think you're being too nice in this situation. With all due respect to the sheriff, you know as well as I do, the time she was discovered missing is very important. It's not fog of war. It is not fog of war. That, you know,

yeah, it shouldn't be. Maybe the dissemination of it was though as the only grace I give is that it is a it is a complicated um task that they're undergoing and we don't make

nobody asked about it. Somebody in that room needed to say you've adjusted the timeline dramatically. Sheriff, why?

Yeah. No, there was lots that I wish they'd followed up on the car being towed and being processed by warrant. I mean, what where was that? Like, hold it.

You and I are going to have to fly out there for the next one. Literally, I think you and I are going to have to fly out there together for the next one. That's at least four questions. Two for you and two for me.

Yeah. Seriously, like I I was very frustrated because it was like that's an obvious one. Ask that. And the the one about the car was the other one. Like he he he just sort of elided around it. It was like

Yeah. car, standard search warrant, court orders, crime scene. Wait, wait, wait.

Yeah. Right. No, I know. NY's house is the crime scene. Was it towed from NY's house or was it towed from Annie's house? Sheriff, and whose car was it? Why? And if it's Annie's, why are you towing Annie's car? I only think that since many of the uh breaking pieces of information that I had were addressed bullet by bullet in that news conference that when he said he did that car being towed I assume that was because I reported that Annie's car has been towed and is now in evidence. I assume that's what he was saying because he said the car towed from the house that's standard uh as per warrant. It's being processed. So he didn't say from NY's house. He didn't say from Annie's house. I'm I'm only I can only go on. He was bulleting my um my reports and trying to knock them down. But, you know, did you hear what he said about the cameras? Something else I I picked up on.

Let's talk about that. Yeah. Big time. Before we talk about the cameras, let me just say quickly, we actually did reach out. We we went um and tried to pull the warrants to see if they were public. They're under seal, so we can't get them right now to see exactly what they got a warrant for. But, let's talk about the cameras because that's another piece of your reporting that has come under fire. First, tell us what your reporting is and then we'll talk about what he said. So, the exact words that were used is that the Nest, and I was told Nest cameras, that was the first time that they'd been named. They weren't Ring cameras. They were Nest cameras, plural, were smashed. That was the wording. Nest cameras were smashed. And when asked about that, the sheriff said, well, first he had reported they were removed uh and in the timeline called them disconnected. But when asked about them being smashed, he said smashed. I don't

know where you got the information about smashed, but we're not confirming that. And then he did confirm it as plural that there were more than one. And that was something that I reported that there wasn't just the one that Brian Anton saw the bracket left behind. By the way, he went further about that and it was interesting. He said, "Regarding the disconnected camera, do you believe that camera was taken?" And the sheriff said, "We do not have it in our possession. We have not located it." So, does that mean that the perpetrator smashed those cameras off the brackets and took them away? Maybe he just doesn't

clearly here. Here he is. Let me play for the audience. It's stop 14. It's a montage.

Sunday morning, early morning at 1:47 a.m. The doorbell doorbell camera disconnects. Uh the doorbell camera um it it was removed. We know that, but we're not confirming that any cameras were smashed or destroyed around the house. I don't know where that came from, but that's something we're not confirming.

Um, when you say the doorbell camera was disconnected, do you believe that that camera was taken?

We do not have it in our possession. We've not located. It's a Yes. Well, I mean, it's off the bracket. How do you get it off the bracket? Do you bring a screwdriver? Uh, or do you smash it? Is this semantics? I don't know. But to me, it was pretty telling that that's that's more of my reporting that has borne out.

And then we were able to get to the bottom of yesterday. We we got very confused as we looked at the timeline that they put up about how he was saying the doorbell cameras were disconnected and then minutes later there was a picture captured of a person.

No, not a picture. They don't have the image because Yeah, it's it's the alert.

No, no, I know. I know. But there there was an alert. The the point is not whether it was a picture or a written text. The point is that

they got a communication from a camera. Yeah. After they said the doorbell cameras were disconnected, which was confusing. And what they said was there were other cameras. That was basically the explanation. We we reached out to the FBI. We reached out to the sheriff's office. We went back and watched the end of the presser where they did reference there being more than just the doorbell cameras. And the sheriff's office too clarified um basically there there were other cameras and it was one of these other cameras that alerted them to the image of a person the sheriff later said could have been an animal too. Um

alerted to activity the house and the and the the the secret is here uh and it's a great message to everybody who's watching and listening. Um, if you have a doorbell service of some kind, whether it's Nest, ring.com, or uh, you know, any of the the services, you pay for a subscription to be able to get your history or for many of them, it's just a live alert. There's someone at your door right now. You can look and you might be buil able to talk to them, but once that's done, it's gone. You don't have an archive of it. So if you come home and you wonder who was skulking around your front door, unfortunately if you don't have the service, the subscription, you can't go back and and look at all the alerts and what they actually recorded. And that was what I think they were trying to tell us. Yeah.

I mean, it's basically Yeah. You you you can alert on in real time and then if you're there and you catch it, you can look, but once it's gone, it's gone. And so I I took that second one. It was weird, right? because it's like, you know, one camera it disconnects at uh it's an earlier time. It's like quite a bit of time to 147. The second camera disconnects 228. It's almost 45 minutes. So, here's what it could be. Because a lot of these cameras are powered by batteries, not because they're plugged in somewhere. It's not because they're plugged in. Um, the first one maybe was smashed and then crimes were committed and NY's being abducted and the second one is smashed and then those cameras are taken, but it's jostling around somewhere and a battery is recording an alert of movement. Doesn't say what the movement is. Doesn't show you what the movement is. It just says movement.

Motion detected. That's what that might be. So, you're thinking it could actually be the dismounted doorbell cameras that produced the alert. We don't know. He's not be specifying just how many cameras were in there and what if anything they were connected to. Um but yeah, that was one of the mysteries of the presser yesterday. We did not understand how there was a doorbell camera disconnecting at 147 and software detecting a person on cam at 212. And now all they're saying is there it was a

I have something to tell you real quickly. Brian Enton had drone video uh looking inside the garage. NY's garage showed NY's car in the garage. So it had clearly not been toted to evidence.

At least one car. very I don't know if she had two, but at least one car was in that garage and had not been towed. If she had two, maybe

there's no way. There's no 84y old woman who has two cars who lives alone. I like that that's not a thing. Um it's Annie's car. I don't like But we we don't know for sure. I we know from your reporting, but like it would have been nice to hear somebody ask that of the sheriff as opposed to just crapping on your reporting. They should follow up on it and ask probitative questions. Some did. wouldn't confirm wouldn't confirm if there was or wasn't forced entry. My source said door in the back wide open and he wouldn't confirm whether or not there was or wasn't. Wouldn't do that.

Ashley, thank you. Thank you so much for your courage and your in-depth reporting. Check her out guys on her podcast Drop Dead Serious. And we are back now with our spectacular legal panel including Jim Fitzgerald, Jonathan Gileiam, and Chad Ayes. You're not going to want to miss this. Ever been in a bad relationship? You know, the kind that just wears you down. You settle in, even though deep down, you know, this is not how it's supposed to be. Well, that's what daily aches and pains can feel like. You stop expecting to feel good. You start thinking, "Maybe this is just my life now." But it doesn't have to be. With Relief Factor, you can break up with pain just like Anthony did. He wrote, quote, "I was dealing with debilitating pain and fatigue, and I've been taking Relief Factor for about two months, and now I'm back to running my business, fishing, gardening, and doing the things that

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dropped her off 9:48 p.m. Saturday night. 9:50 p.m. her NY's garage door closed. So clearly she went in through her garage to her house. So in that 2-minute time frame, it opened, it closed, and we believe she went inside. Then at 1:47 a.m. the police said yesterday her door her doorbell cams were disconnected. Um, so that's when we believe the bad guy, whoever it was, destroyed and took, that's our understanding, these doorbell cams. Um, Ashley's reporting on the front and the back at 1:47 a.m. 2:12 a.m. software detects a person on cam. No videos available. 2:28 a.m. The pacemaker app shows a disconnection from the phone.

So, she's got a pacemaker in her body that communicates with the her phone and an app. And we are told that if it gets some 30 ft away from uh the phone, if she gets some 30 ft away from the phone, you'll get it. It'll disconnect. Now, so clearly she she was being taken out of the house around that time. 2:28. So if you if you go from 1:47 a.m., which is when the doorbell cam got disconnected, to 2:28 a.m., which is when her pacemaker, meaning she, got far enough away from her phone that the app stopped communicating with the pacemaker. That is 41 minutes.

41 minutes. What was a kidnapper doing in Nancy Guthri's home for 41 minutes? How does it take 41 minutes to kidnap an 84 year old woman? I realize they don't move slowly. It certainly appears as though she fought. Something happened to cause her to bleed on her front porch or patio area as it appears she was being taken out of the home. But 41 minutes you got to take off some time to smash the cameras. But that happened, you know, 1:47 the doorbell got disconnected. I don't Was that How long could that possibly take? 10 minutes.

157 now. Now it's 31 minutes to get her and get out of the house. Why? That's too long. Um I don't know whether something else happened inside that house. Was there a struggle? Did someone take her life? Is that what happened? And then in a panic removed her so with her would go the evidence. Um there is a question about what other evidence was inside the house. And I'm going to play you the sound bite and then I'll bring in my panel. Um, let's play the play the sound talking about what went on inside that home. I think it's sot 8B.

In the house, were there any signs that someone tried to clean up or maybe destroy evidence?

I I can't talk about the crime scene, so I'll give you another shot, another question.

Is there any missing bedding uh from from the home? Again, I'm I can't speak to that. There are certain things in that home that we know only the intruder knows about and the things that occurred and we don't want that information out.

So, the sheriff has been meticulous both in an interview with Ashley earlier this week and at the presser yesterday about not revealing what evidence they have inside of the house. But whatever it was it plus we believe in addition to the blood drops out front led them to call in the homicide unit. 41 minutes is a long time. We're going to bring in some guys uh that will give you insight on this you won't get anywhere else. Former FBI supervisory special agent Jim Fitzgerald, co-host of the Cold Cold Red podcast, former Navy Seal and FBI special agent Jonathan Gileiam, and former SWAT assistant team leader Chad Ayes. Gentlemen, welcome. 41 minutes. Think about it. I hadn't really thought of it in those terms up until they laid out the new timeline last night. That's a long time. And the sheriff is saying that there's additional DNA evidence that they're waiting on the results of. So clearly

they did find something else inside that was DNA related. We just don't know what. Jonathan, let me start with you on that. It's a long time. 41.

Yeah, sure. You know what this kind of points me towards, Megan? First of all, we're putting so much attention. Everybody is looking at ransom, ransom, ransom. um that it's easy to overlook the other possibilities and the fact that you honed in on this is really good, the 41 minutes because that could be the time period when somebody was looking for something. So, they go into the house, there was no robbery, but were they looking for something else? Is there paperwork? Is there some something going on that we don't know about uh with Miss Guthrie? and somebody was in there trying to find something in particular because I can't think of any other reason for them to be in there for that long. Uh it's not like they're going to interrogate her uh before they kidnap her. So it would be a quick in and a quick out typically. So it it almost appears just from this timeline that somebody may have been in there and

then perhaps she woke up and there was a scuffle and it took a dark turn. that has happened before. I've I've uh read case studies where that's occurred and then they have to go down a different road and uh in this case it could be a fake ransom. So, I'm not exactly I'm not sure, but I think that this kind of alludes again to the fact that whoever was in that house had had been there before. I I just have this suspicious feeling and that they were doing something other than just setting up to abduct an 80year-old woman. So, I think this is something that is uh causing me to pause for just a moment.

The the reference to some unspecified DNA found inside of the house that's now being tested makes you wonder exactly what was it. You know what? Was it just they swiped the door handles and the windows and maybe NY's bed posts for touch DNA or was it actual bodily fluids? Um, without putting too fine a point on it, it is the case that sometimes when you take someone's life, they they'll relieve themselves. They'll lose whatever urine or feces are in their bodies, but not in not in every situation. But that would certainly if there was any evidence of that, I feel like they'd be treating this case differently, Chad.

I feel like they'd be talking about it differently, but I don't know because his first move was to call in homicide detectives and um there was additional DNA inside that house.

Listen, I'm I'm not one to hold back. And something that we haven't discussed, Megan, is is it possible that a sexual assault also took place? Um and again, I I hate to even breach the topic, but is that a possibility? Listen, two counties over from where I am um two or three years ago had the exact same situation. The only difference was this lady um here was 89 years old, but it was a person on drugs, sexually assaulted her in the middle of the night, brutally murdered her. Now, she was still there, but is that a possibility? 100% that's still a possibility. The thing is that when he says, you know, we are still processing DNA and being so vague, it could make us go down a rabbit hole. Um, there's all sorts of options that we have.

What do you make of it all, Jim? Uh, this was a a clearly successful abdu abduction. It was a uh if it is a kidnapping, it's poorly undertaken. You don't spend 41 minutes as a kidnapper in the place where you're taking your victim. you get in and you get out. And that's why I'm leaning I'm leaning away somewhat and a lot of the questions about this alleged, you know, ransom letter. I know they're finally come back to be identical, but uh uh again, a successful abduction for whatever reason. Is it to hide evidence? 41 minutes. Was there an argument of some sort? And I'm not going to point to family, but is it someone known to this woman? And and they they started having, you know, interaction of some sort and the person snapped out and hit her. Oh my god. Now, if it's a stranger, leave the body there. Get the heck out. If it's someone known to the woman, what do I do now? They better take that body and

put it somewhere else. Or if she's still alive, who knows what condition she's in, but I got to somehow remove her from the scene. So, that 41 minutes does open uh assuming that number is correct, doesn't change on this again, uh Megan, uh you know, that's going to be uh very critical there. So, again, a successful abduction, but a poorly run kidnapping at this point. And I have other examples we could talk about of other kidnappings down the line here today, but it's it's just not being run very efficiently or effectively so far.

If their ultimate goal was to get money out of this case, unless there's a lot of things mitigating circumstance will be things that they we're not learning from law enforcement, but uh successful abduction, not a good

and yet it doesn't it doesn't look like a full lunatic because they did think to get the ring cameras or the nest they were nest cameras and apparently managed to do that without I don't getting caught. I realized that those were not subscription cameras. So maybe the images were on there but just were written over. That's what the sheriff said happens with these cameras when you don't have the subscription service. By the way, get the subscription service. You know, I don't think most of us fully understood, you know, that that was a thing. But you got to get the subscription service because it's useless to you in solving crime if it just rewrites every couple of hours as the sheriff said or writes over itself.

like $100 a year. I do want to talk about I I want to talk about the uh ransom notes in a second, but I I got to be honest. I'm with you guys. I'm I'm not totally intrigued by the ransom notes because I don't I don't believe personally that they're from the real kidnapper. Though, I could totally be wrong because the more I listen to Harvey Levan, the more I I think he's starting to believe that they actually are from the from the hostage taker. Uh but we'll we'll get to those in one second. And I just want to stay on a couple of the items that we discussed with Ashley, too. How about this? The change in the timeline on Sunday morning, guys. I talked about this a bit with Chad yesterday, but I didn't get to talk to you other guys about it. It was, as we played from the sheriff, I don't know if you guys heard this, but the sheriff had been saying all week that it was an hour delay that the family had

been called by a by a constituent at the church. I'm reading here. Pima County Sheriff Chris Nanos has said a congregant called NY's family at 11:00 a.m. on Sunday. This is the Daily Mail reporting. A congregant called NY's family at 11:00 a.m. on Sunday after she failed to arrive at church. And then we played the sheriff on camera this week, repeatedly saying that, putting the time around 11:10 um that the family got notified and got over to and or got over to NY's house. Either notified at 11:10 or there at NY's house. They live only a couple minutes down the road.

And then suddenly yesterday it's completely changed to no, the family um discovered her missing at 11:56 a.m. discovered her missing um and then within 7 minutes called 911. Now, that to me seems like a rather large thing to have wrong, like when the family discovered that she wasn't there. And coupled with the new information that Nancy, now this could turn out to be wrong, too. A lot of things have, but that apparently Nancy was not going physically to church. She wasn't going to church. The Daily Mail spoke with a woman who said, um, hold on, I'm finding my my quote here. Let's see. A fellow congregant in NY's church, reading from the Daily Mail in Tucson, was initially reported to have alerted the her family that she failed to attend the morning service on Sunday. Curiously, however, a source has now told the Daily Mail that the elderly mother of the Today Show host had not been at St. Andrews

Presbyterian Church for years. Ever since the COVID pandemic, she has been worshiping online. It is understood that St. Andrews did not have a large-scale Zoom call for online viewing as some religious organizations do. Instead, the church's 9:00 a.m. and 10:45 a.m. services on Sunday are livereamed, and it is impossible for other participants to know who else is watching. To know who else is watching. Um, now the church responded by saying, "All we can tell you is that Nancy has been a member here for many years. She is part of our community and we love her," said Ed Coats, administrative assistant at St.

Andrew's Presbyterian Church. Quote, "We're praying for her." And that's really all we have to say right now. I'm sure the media will know before we will, you know, how the story unfolds, but we are praying for her safety and praying for her family. So, this was her church, the Daily Mail, and also Brian Enton reporting that she had not been to this church physically for years. So, how could a congregant have noticed she wasn't there and called the family to report it on Sunday morning?

You know, I would I whenever I hear these things, Megan, first of all, this timeline, I'm looking at it as you're talking, I'm going through it, and it's a little odd. The timeline

that we have versus the verbiage of the sheriff before is different. And uh there's some things like the camera detecting or being disconnected and then detecting movement. There are some things there that that don't make sense that could be easily explained, but they don't make sense. But I would like to know who the person is that reported this to the family. Okay.

Who called the family? Right. Because if she's not on known to be there or to be on camera, who was it that suspected? Is it somebody that she usually talks to while she's on there? And they said, "Oh, you know, she and they're just not telling us that." That would that would make sense. And and perhaps it's that simple. But if somebody if the church or somebody's reporting that there's no way to know if she's online, yet somebody comes up with information that she's not there, then who was that person and how did they have that information? So there's

these things and and also the timeline of the family. This reminds me again of Idaho where, you know, they found all this crazy stuff and instead of calling police immediately, they called a bunch of friends over uh to decide what to do next. And so if the family went there and discovered that she wasn't there and it took that long for them to notify police, if the first timeline that the sheriff's went over is correct, that is also very suspicious to me why you would get there and take that long to call police when apparently it was odd enough for you to go over there and check in the first place.

See, I I I have been defending the hour-long delay because I feel like I would be so reluctant to involve law enforcement without knowing for sure this is that level of situation. I'd be like, "She wandered. Let's check on our own first." Or, "She may have been picked up by a friend and gone over to a friend's house. Let's check out that." Now, the blood on the front stoop makes it all less easy to understand the hour. That's that takes it. But that's assuming they saw it. this maybe maybe they too came in through the garage which doesn't take you right over the patio. I don't know. Um and we also don't know what the scene was inside the house. Was it chaotic? Was it obvious that some sort of struggle had happened in there? In which case the hourlong delay would be weird to law enforcement too, right? Like you go to your mom's house and she's not there. That's one thing. You go there and you see like

tables overturned and a blood trail leading up to the bedroom you call within 30 seconds. You know, all that's relevant. I find it very odd. Can I say this one?

He's changed it so dramatically. One one thing real quick is that what I have to guard against as an FBI agent and the other gentleman can can speak to this or as an investigator, I should just say investigator. Um I do not get into the trap of offending people because I assume somebody may have done something. And you know, in the Gonave uh family when uh the Idaho uh murders went down, I I was it wasn't that I was suspicious, but I made the comment that the father, Gonav's father was his behavior was very odd to me. So, I just pointed that out and the the vitriol that I got because I pointed that out was overwhelming. But see, that is what an investigator cannot do. If the family members other family members are saying no no it's not this person or it's not this family member you have to ignore that because the potential there is that you are going to look past somebody who was involved and if you look at anything

you go go and binge watch 48 hours mysteries which has been on for 30 40 years and you will see that the vast majority of these things are done by family members and in a lot of cases the other family members protest about looking at their their uh siblings iblings or spouses and things like that.

And keep in mind, we got Savannah living at staying with her sister right now as well. Isn't that Megan? What we

clearly Savannah believes in her sister and and her brother-in-law. I mean, I I think that's obvious. She wouldn't be staying at that house otherwise. And look, we don't know them at all. They may be completely lovely people. And you know, this is like crazy to be even looked at, but the the reality is if if a loved one dies or is missing under very mysterious circumstances where very clearly a crime has been committed, you're going to you're going to be looked at. That's just the reality of it. That's just like there's nothing wrong with that. That that is crimesolving 101. And more than likely, they understand that. And if they have nothing to hide, I mean, they'd be like, we'd we'd be, which is like, go ahead and look at me. Here's my phone. Here's my car. Here's ask me anything. Like, I I appreciate look at me. Get me off of your radar as soon and as quickly as possible so you can move on to, you

know, whoever really did it. And that that leads me to the car. We discussed it a bit with Ashley, but that car, I did not like that sheriff's answer. It was very ambiguous. He was like ticking off the things that Ashley had reported without naming her. And he's like, "As for the car, um, that's standard procedure. I'll play it again for you guys. It's s listen to this." No one had asked him a question. He was clearly going through Ashley Banfield's exclusive reporting and trying to like dispute her reporting, but he didn't really. He just kind of said, "We're not commenting on that or I don't know where anybody got that." The one thing he really did kind of confirm without confirming was her report that they have seized Annie Guthri's car and that it's been impounded. And here is his comment on that in SAT 16.

The car uh the the the car that was at the home uh it's just standard investigative practices. It's part of the search warrant scene court orders. We we pull it out of there and do our scene processing with the vehicle. Guys, I don't even know what that means because if it was Annie Guthri's car, it was I believe at Annie Guthri's house. Like there I haven't heard any reporting that her car stayed at her mother's home for days until it was allegedly impounded. Um, and I don't know that that would be part of if it was at Annie's house, that would not necessarily be part of the crime scene in a standard search warrant. So, how does that grab you?

Uh, I'll start here, Megan. Just we talked about this the other day. Uh, uh, I mean, I think they would be remiss as investigators to not search that car, impound it, put it in the evidence lot, and bring in a team to go through it. Uh, if if they had found anything of viable evidence there, forensic evidence, hairs, fibers, DNA, of course, anything related to that, um, that's off to the lab right now. They're trying to get their comparisons. Obviously, no arrest made. The messaging is complicated and confusing. I sometimes wonder if they're playing 4D chess or we're back at checkers when we're listening to some of the stuff being said. Uh we're not going to even comment on the sheriff and his his delivery style. I think he's trying his best. I agree with that part. I'm giving them some room, too, like Ashley said. But the car part I think I I'm not going to get too overly concerned about

that. I think that is something they had to do and there's probably other cars they're also looking at. They should be interviewing a lot of other people, too.

Why did they have to do it? Explain explain why they had because they were within that inner concentric circle of family members and that may have been the car that the mother was last driving in dropped off by someone or two people the night before. So that's the the last car she was in. Let's see what we can find in there. If it's in the front seat, hairs and fibers for mom back seat, no big deal. Trunk or rear SUV, then it means something else. So they did it apparently a consensual search, maybe a search warrant, whatever it was. and uh and and so far they're awaiting results or the results were negative and they're moving on in a different direction.

I mean, the one thing I think we can say because I'm just thinking about, you know, we think that the time of kidnapping or, you know, disappearance was around 2:00 a.m., you know, right around there. I mean, her the the the pacemaker stopped communicating at 2:28 a.m. I think it's fair to say if if she was taken or, God forbid, killed prior to that point, we would know thanks to the pacemaker because the pacemaker does communicate with the Apple Watch and the Apple phone. And as I understand it now, it's it's kind of constantly downloading uh information on on there. And if you have like an event, it'll show you. But the it's constantly collecting information the iPhone on on from your pacemaker. So

which they haven't reported an event. If her heart stopped they haven't reported an event,

right? But so it but I'm saying like if if Yeah. So if her heart had stopped beating right

you know, prior to, you know, at any point from 9:45 when she was last seen forward, we'd know that. we'd know if she were no longer alive prior to the moment that her pacemaker stopped communicating with the phone. So, I think we really can in this case, unlike a lot of cases, really put the time of whatever happened to her with removal from the home at 2:20, you know, not not before 2:28 a.m.

And would we assume that the sheriff would come out or the FBI would come out and say, "We believe she is still alive." If they have that cell phone data from the pacemaker and we see that, hey, actually her heart has stopped at x amount of time, would he still be staying standing in front of that podium saying we believe Nancy Guthrie is still alive?

No way. No way. And and like going in so depth into the ransom notes. Go ahead, Jonathan.

Well, you know who else would know this is they have emergency contacts. When you have a pacemaker, you also have emergency contact and the information goes to your doctor. And if that if there is an incident that is reported to the doctor, but it's also reported to the person who is your emergency contact. And they they do these things for a reason because that's why you have a pacemaker. So if it went offline, who was her emergency contact? And did the signal go to the doctor? And why did nobody call 911? And uh

well, cuz I mean they it could that could just be you forgot your phone. I don't think they would alert the doctor in the middle of the night that like you got too far away from your phone and but I mean but that's not the same thing as having an event like a cardiac arrest.

That's the other thing. If she's being abducted and her heart rate spikes in the middle of the night and it doesn't usually spike like that or it stops, that is going to notify your emergency contact and the doctor's office. There'll be a record of that there

that should be on there. I agree. Um, so I just like to me it makes who dropped her off, even though there's been weird messaging around that at 9 uh 48

a little less relevant because I don't think this is a case where whoever dropped her off, you know, took her then or did something to her then because I do think the pacemaker would have recorded something between 9:48 and 2:28 that night. We would have seen an event or something. Um, she was clearly still in the house uh between 9:48 and 2:28. At least her her body in some form was still in the house during that time. She was she had not been taken yet.

They did make a point to say that the son-in-law had made sure that she was safely inside the house. I don't know what that means.

And is that an excuse for his DNA to be around that area? I don't know. Well, they did make a point of that. That's interesting. his DNA should be there anyway. That would not necessarily prove anything. Blood or of course other body fluids would tell us a lot of his or whoever else it is. But these people, if I just add in here, they really have to start reinterviewing. They probably interviewed them at least twice so far separate start offering polygraph examinations to them. Uh you know, polygraphs aren't perfect, but if done right, but the right poligraphist and you know, the the the pre-in, the first interview, uh post interview, you can get a lot of information from people.

So, this concentric circle we're talking Jim, can I ask you a question on that?

You should be done. Can I ask you a follow up on that? Um, isn't that dangerous? You know, you heard the sheriff say the family's been very cooperative so far and we want to keep it that way.

You say then, yo, would you sit for a polygraph? I'm thinking I'm going to lawyer up at this point because I know exactly where you're going. Maybe even if I'm innocent because you never know. You don't want to get in trouble. Well, and that's law enforcement has to put the cards on the table and say, "Look, we have to rule everyone out." They may be telling them in confidence, "This case is going nowhere. We don't have suspects outside. We don't have phone cameras, facial recognition, uh, or or or you know, red light cameras, all that stuff. Uh, phone pinging off towers. So, we just want to go this one more time and then we're basically done with you."

And, you know, I'm from old school. If you say you want a lawyer and you say you want someone to represent you or you're refusing to be inter interviewed or a polygraph, I then want to ask some more questions about you. But I certainly want phone records too from everyone and ask them about all right your phone call to this person to that person and even the person at the church whoever this person was allegedly called. Let's get them interviewed in depth in detail. Maybe a polygraph to them and uh and let's start throwing these things out there. And there should be another team of course working you know the alleged ransom note and email whatever it is and and looking at all those factors too from far away but that concentric circle a team has to be in there saying we're doing this for your sake everyone please and if someone turns down in that family you know that that request the other family members

could wait a minute why don't you want to talk to the investigators and and who knows where that would go from there but it may lead to a break somehow of the family and someone come forth I'm not pointing at the family at this point but do they know someone indirectly even tangentially that somehow thought they were doing the right thing and and abducted the woman whether it's a kidnapping or not we just don't really know that yet for profit that is

go ahead Chad so I know yesterday you know all of us were kind of this timeline and the disconnect that we know that the Ring doorbell I know Jonathan you and I were talking about this the the Ring doorbell was destroyed and then we got that the um then the disconnect so I did a little research and these cameras do oftent times, Megan, operate independent of each other. All right. So, just cuz you messed up the Ring door.

It was Nest, by the way. I don't know if that matters to you, but it was Nest. Well, and and what I read is that you can disable break whatever they want to call the the Ring doorbell. Let's just say on the front door. And this is kind of the theory. Now, I I'm I'm kind of because obviously Ashley talked about the back door there. It appeared that there was some type of entry made to the back door. So is it possible when we look at these two disconnects was they disabled the that you know someone knew how to approach this door to not be viewed or whatever or it did view them and they just didn't capture the image.

They destroy that nest camera. All right. At that point we know that is that is that is going to be the exit or we believe that's the exit. Then at that point they can pull a vehicle to the front door. But the entry whether they're working with one or two entry is made into the back. Now again this doesn't help with the 40 some odd minutes or however they were inside the house. All right. But when they go into the back door to make entry that is that that is that um you know the other picture that we are gaining from. So that's that's one thing that

where we had a disconnection at 1:47 a.m. and we had 212 a.m. software detects person on cam. No video.

They could also be hardwired. Um but they can but they also have batteries. Most people use them for the batteries. batteries last a long time on these these Nest cameras. So, it could be that uh the camera itself was taken offline and moved but somehow was able to report movement uh because it was being moved. The camera itself was being moved.

So, that's a possibility as well. Also, you know, or there could be another camera. There could be a third like that. We went back. We did ask and specifically tried to get clarity on the camera issue and we spoke with law enforcement and they said um there there was more than one camera in the house. That's what they wanted us to know. Like there was that's how they explained the fact that the Nest camera possibly plural were gone and yet they still had this data that at uh 2:12 a.m. software detects a person on camp. They said there was

what we're doing right now, by the way, Megan, is exactly what happens when you're investigating something and you have all these different aspects of known uh known behaviors or known um uh things that have occurred at a at a scene and then but you don't know the total picture. So where you have to guard, this is where conspiracy theories come up, is you have to take what you know and put and and categorize that or catalog it and then not go down the road too far of theories of each one of those things because we're making educated decisions based on what we know.

However, what we know about this may have nothing to do with what actually happened. And that what we're doing right here is really how this works in a lot of ways is we take what information we have and we try to piece it together or find uh evidence of the gaps that exist so we can connect those things. Um and that's where where we're at versus law enforcement. A lot of these things don't make any sense. And I think a lot of this has to do with the sheriff's verbiage.

I'm still stuck on 41 minutes. Why? Why is it to take 41 minutes to get an 84y old out of the house? And I also am focused on that there's other DNA that we're having tested right now. You guys know as well as I do, they probably lit that house up in lumininal to see whether anybody had done cleanup to see whether there had been more blood that had been cleaned up in particular on the inside of the house versus the outside. And they know the answer to that right now, like how much blood was spilled and what other bodily fluids may have been uh spilled and is that what they were doing? Were they cleaning up? Were they covering their tracks before they left or did something more nefarious happened during that time? the blood drops out front. You know, we've had some some people who are familiar with crime scenes suggest that the the way the drops hit suggest that they came straight down vertically as if from a

like a bloody nose, that kind of thing. Um, I'm not sure we know that. I think that's just armchair analysis. We haven't heard like a true blood expert opine to that uh effect. So, we just we just don't know. Um, stand by though because we do have to investigate the notes and Harvey Leven really revealed a lot last night about what's in them and they are very clearly being taken very seriously by the Guthrie children. I mean, and they've seen them. So, I think those three absolutely believe that this might be the hostage taker and that they might need to negotiate with this person to save their mother's life. And Harvey Lean really revealed quite a bit about what's in there and why they might believe that. That's next. We'll take a quick break first. Be right back with more. Feeling sluggish, bloated, not quite like yourself? Life constantly bombards us with silent threats.

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We're back now with our panel and more on the disappearance of Nancy Guthrie. And we're going to get into the ransom note. Now, the ransom note, uh, the authorities confirmed yesterday that it was the same note sent to all three media outlets, TMZ and two Tucson local television stations. That was a a question Jim had been asking from the beginning. And we're told by the FBI, same note, uh three different recipients. And now Harvey Levan is offering new details of what was in the letter. Here's a little of what he told Aaron Bernett last night. S five.

The Monday deadline is far more consequential. I will say this that they do mention an Apple Watch as the FBI said, and they do mention the flood light, the damaged flood light. there is something else um and it is the placement of the Apple Watch which has not come out uh and if that placement is accurate um I'm sure that is something that puts this letter on the FBI's radar. Uh they went to great lengths in sending this email to us um in making sure that it stays anonymous. I don't know that the FBI uh is at all close to figuring out where it came from. They began the letter I I I don't think I'm giving anything away here. They began the letter by saying that um that Nancy is uh is okay but scared. So they say she is okay and also that she's aware of the letter and the demands

that Nancy Guthrie herself is aware of it. Yes. So that's very interesting the part about the watch guys because one of the questions at the presser yesterday was okay you know you're saying in this note they referenced the Apple watch and something about the flood lights on her home. Well you can see the flood lights on her home from outside. Like there are pictures right now on Fox News Digital showing them. You know it's not like a big news thing. And the reports about her Apple Watch hit I think on Monday like right after this story first became national news. So, and and the ransom notes, as far as we know, did not go to the to the media outlets until we believe Tuesday. Um, so the question was asked of the FBI like, you know, why do we believe these are real? As opposed to somebody who just heard information in the news and then tried to capitalize on this family's pain. And the FBI director

seemed like he didn't say, "Oh, no, there's other stuff in the note." He was like, "Yeah, that's one of the things we're considering." But now you have Harvey Leven saying, "No, no, no. There was something specifically about the placement of the Apple Watch, which he suggested only the kidnapper could know if the placement of the watch as described in this note were correct." You know, if the person maybe they said she had it right on her bedside table next to a picture of the one grandchild and a notepad, you know, maybe it was something that truly only the kidnapper could know. So, that's one of the reasons why he's taking it very specifically or very very seriously. Um, there's one other thing. There's two other things I want to play, but let's just start there. Does that What do you make of Harvey's take on the specifics of the note? I'd like to know if those if that note is how similar is it to the

one that the guy got arrested for the so that first and foremost um is kind of sparking my interest because I I I need to totally rule that guy out for everything else which law enforcement may have done that already. Um but the specific

they're saying they're not related. Okay. I mean look I think the FBI's doing what they should be doing first and foremost which is taking it seriously. It doesn't mean it's real. it means they're taking it seriously because they don't know if it's not real. And so, uh, you know, how how much do people vary in where they put their watches or did they put the watch in a certain place and then mention that? Um, you know, I don't know that. And so I think speculating on on the reality or the realism of these of these notes, even though they sound very compelling, um it it may just it may not be anything or it may be again, Megan, 41 minutes in a home before you abduct somebody. It it just may be the fact that people who were in there know her and know that house and they're using this as a ruse and they can say these specific things because they were in there for that long whether they meant to to hurt her or not

or wake her up or not. H Wait, are you suggesting like if they if they took her life and now they're just play acting that there's a kidnapping underway?

It very well could be. I mean that that would not be the first time that that has happened and it would not be the first time uh that people have gone into what if it was a sexual assault as we were talking about earlier. I doubt that that individual that would go into the house and do a sexual assault of that nature uh for of an elderly woman is going to go down the the the road of this ruse. So those wouldn't be probably connected. But a family member we have seen in the past where they have tried to send the police down another road either blaming somebody or some type of ruse. So I could see that occurring especially if the death was not intentional.

Let me get to two other sound bites from Harvey describing what's in the note. Um here's ST 6A to Hannity.

I don't know. But the way it's written they say this is it. It's the only communication and the police aren't going to be able to help you. They're that bold saying that there is a phrase in this email that absolutely makes me believe this person who wrote this and if they're telling the truth that Nancy is in with a within a radius of the Tucson area, not in Tucson right now, but in a radius. It could be New Mexico. I don't know how far, but I think at least what the authorities have is they've got a radius. And that's something

there's a little bit more on her allegedly being in the Tucson area where he spoke with Aaron Bernett. Sat 6.

My sense is this is whoever sent this letter is based in the Tucson area. And I say that because of a reference made in the letter, a sentence in the letter. Um, it feels to me reading it that this is Tucsonbased and um and and I think that's a fair analysis based on, you know, my discussions today in the office and just reading this letter. So, this doesn't feel like this is somebody out of state or out of the country who hatched this plan. It feels more localized. Um, and then today on his show, he expanded even further saying uh why he believes she might be held in the Tucson area if this notes real. Quote, "There is a demand of millions in Bitcoin for NY's safe return, and there is a time frame for how long it would take Nancy to be returned to Tucson after getting the money." Now, I disagree with Harvey.

That does not mean that this person is not overseas. He could be overseas and this whole thing is a fraud. He's trying to take advantage of Nancy Guthri's disappearance. He could absolutely be sitting someplace in India doing this whole thing. Harvey's suggesting if it's real then the person's got her near Tucson because obviously he's suggesting Chad that they could have her back very quickly once they get their millions.

Yeah. And I think what it what it really boils down to, I mean, if we're just using common sense here, it's not like they took her to an airport or even or or even an FBO and got her on a private plane, right? You got to have an ID unless you got some, you know, janky airfield behind your house in the middle of the desert and threw her on some prop plane. Probably very highly unlikely. So, we can probably eliminate that aspect. So, where is she? Does this mean she's right in that immediate area? I don't know. It's hard for me to believe that you would risk getting in a car and driving states away with a her in the vehicle, risking getting pulled over, risking getting in an accident, anything like that. I I call

That's a good point. I mean, how seriously should we take these notes, Jim? All right, let's like break it down in the cases I've worked over the years with some similarity to this one or certainly I'm I'm familiar with. Uh it's we'll just focus on the note now. It's either a hoax or it's real. And uh I'm sure investigators are looking at both uh uh possibilities there. If it's a hoax, it could be for three separate reasons. Just an opportunist saying, "Hey, I'm going to make some quick money off this like you just described.

They're in India, Eastern Europe somewhere. They have nothing to do with the case." Um if it's uh uh it just could be harassment, just someone could be some college kids having fun with this. Hey, I know how to, you know, put these emails together. You know, I watched, you know, Criminal Minds back in the day and they put something together or, and this brings us back now to what is the reason for the abduction, for profit or is it for uh a revenge uh taking of this woman and and possibly doing bad things to her? And they put this out, as I described yesterday, a po post offense manipulation of investigation, communication, lots of syllables. I coined that term because I was seeing these things happening in other cases I worked over the years uh certainly back in the ear late 90s and early 2000s and and these are it's a whole sort of separate set of letters that people were putting together. So if

someone sophisticated enough who took Mrs. Guthrie then put her somewhere not still alive and not alive and said, "Hey, I'm going to become a suspect. I better put this uh this fake uh email out to two news stations and TMZ." Why TMZ? I'm not sure. Uh, but that's probably what the person watches and that's a clue too about who this person is. So, but so the investigators have to handle this as being real. I've never said they shouldn't, but they also have to consider other options here. And I'll tell you what, the family uh it's easy for me being objective sitting on this side of the investigation or actually out of it, but knowing enough about it, they should be demanding as as as best they can for a proof of life somehow some way. And if you're a good kidnapper, you're going to provide that because you didn't do this for fun. You didn't do this just for kicks like they did a hundred years ago that the two

college kids kidnapped a young boy in Chicago. But you you did this to make money. So this is a whole failure. If she winds up dead and you wind up getting no money that you're still going to be held liable for it. So they better be some kind of proof of life that they offer and and then the parents, I should say, the family will know she's alive or not. But these are all the options and the different sort of silos that the investigators have to look at of what this letter actually means this email and how and its authenticity.

So do you guys believe if we don't if the family doesn't get proof of life between now and Monday, which is the second deadline in there, which is the more serious deadline according to Harvey. can only guess he's suggesting they're saying that's it for Nancy um on Monday. But something much more serious they he said is going to happen on Monday if they don't get the money. If they don't offer proof of life, which is what Savannah and her siblings asked for that, which is what Cameron and her brother asked for last night, you know, they want to be in communication very very badly and they want proof of life.

And this and you know what? I bet Savannah, if she got proof of life, I bet she'd pay the money. I bet she would pay the millions of dollars. I mean, who wouldn't if you had it? So, if they don't get it and Monday passes, do you feel like we can safely say this was a hoax?

Well, we can say it was a ruse or a hoax. Um, and so the what's the difference there? uh somebody is um like the guy in California is just trying to extort money from somebody basically. Whereas if uh the people who did it uh use this uh as a ruse to get the tension away from them and then they just drop off the radar. I think it's very very telling because a true per listen there's two phases of this crime that happen. One is actually three. Entry to the house and whatever reason they were there for 41 minutes. Removal of the victim or kidnapping or removal if it was a body. And then uh this uh potential um ransom issue and the the ransom part of this is really the most technical aspect of this. So, somebody to do all three of these things for the first time ever is is quite a big deal. Now, they're doing these in Mexico. The cartels are using Bitcoin now a as ways to collect ransom, but there's no evidence that that's

occurred over the border, which is not really far from where she lives. Um, her type of person of person, the persona that she or the person that she is, rich and going, uh, had she traveled to Mexico and been kidnapped there, that would make sense. Um, so I just look at this as uh we're going down a rabbit hole here that um has two different types of phases of this crime. And the second one, which is this uh this ransom issue, it's very hard it's very hard to figure out. And and I'll say I I think because in the if she is there, if the ransom is real, um they said 5:00 p.m.

They didn't say Greenwich Mountain time, right? which I think a professional would probably say that they said local time. So that kind of tells me that the potential is that they

I don't know if they said that. I don't know if they said local time. Can I just ask you can you guys stick around for just another couple minutes? I know you're very busy, but feel like we need to finish this discussion. I won't keep you long. Can you stick stay past the top of the hour for a bit?

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I've seen at least one of her with Savannah. I would get my tech guys and hammer that website. Who's been hitting that website? Can you identify any outofcountry IPs that have been hitting that website? Somebody hitting it continuously recently, stuff like that to try to contextualize this letter to see if it's legit. Because without something that really tells you she was in that house, there's no way you can pay this ransom because there's no way to confirm you're going to get her back.

That's Paul Morrow, former NYPD inspector on Fox News earlier back now with our panel. So, and that's a really good point, you guys. I mean, truly, like if you're in the Guthri's position right now, desperate to have her back, you probably would pay anything if if the kidnapper would just make clear he actually has her. Um, you can't you can't send Bitcoin or anything else right now. How could you possibly do that without proof of life? You I mean, even in your most desperate, you know, that would be absolutely foolhardy, right? Like there's no there's no way the FBI is going to advise them, Jim, to do that.

Yeah. And there's no way a real experienced kidnapper would not be willing to give proof of life. it it's done in in many cases in the past in which I am familiar and there's just no reason for it. Um I think a more logical thing right now for the family to consider and again we don't know all the facts uh and this you know where this watch was placed if it was in a dog bowl hanging from a chandelier and a toilet that could be something significant. Oh yeah I left the watch in the house that's not as much to me important proving what this is and all that really means is the person was inside the house and saw the watch. It doesn't mean this is a for ransom kidnapping. Even if that is the case, what I would consider the family doing right now is um is putting out a million dollar reward.

Uh and they will consider turning that over to the uh the cryptocurrency to the to the address they were given if in fact they get proof of life. And let's see what that generates. $50,000 is nice. The FBI put that up, but I see a million or even more as a reward for the for the location of uh Mrs. Guthrie and then if we get proof of life, we can transfer that to a cryptocurrency account somewhere and let's see what that generates. These people want the money. They didn't do this for fun or an exercise. If the emphasis is on if if it's an actual kidnapping for profit, if it's anything else that changes the entire paradigm and there's other factors in there that we've already discussed. Well, Jim, let me Jim, let me run something by you. Think about this.

Would if because we started off the show again and we heard Ashley talking about the son-in-law. If the son-in-law is involved, is this letter and if it's from him, is that just a a BS letter? Because you would think if if if the son-in-law went in there to, you know, take her life in hopes of getting, you know, insurance money, getting grandma's or mother-in-law's house, would you go to the extent of writing this full letter?

Well, it's an email. Uh, it wouldn't take a whole lot to do it. And apparently, it's a real crypto address. I don't know enough about that or how easy it is to research cryptocurrency accounts. But uh yeah, this happened a lot with other cases I've worked. I had a heart surgeon who was uh accused of of killing his wife, but the police in Pennsylvania couldn't prove it. Next thing you know, these anonymous letters show up to his lawyers. It's different. Not a kidnapping looking for money, but these people put these these letters together. The nurse in uh in Northern New Jersey who killed her husband, chopped him up, put him in the Chesapeake, she put a bunch of letters around North Jersey saying, "Oh, no, the mob did it. Others did it. She got convicted in court. I testified in that case." People do these kind of levers to cover their track. They think they're original and clever.

Wow. But they're really not. There's actually a formula to how these things are are are written. And just because the person knows where a watch may have been placed, if you're a real kidnapper, you're going to have some real specific information. You're going to have a maybe a lock of hair. The case in 1993, the tuxedo tuxedo CEO in New York City, these guys lowered down, they put them in a hole in the ground by train tracks. They lowered down a tape recorder, had them talk into it, and then they would put that over, you know, an untraceable cell phone. even back then. Um there's a woman in Norway who went missing. I actually know one of the people working on it and uh in 20 uh no it was about four years ago I think and uh and and and there's a note left on the table.

She was missing no one ever saw her again but the note was for a ransom amount. Uh so there are other cases that and phone calls are made in the Exxon executives case and they because they seriously wanted the money. That was the reason for doing this. Um, it doesn't seem these kidnappers are real serious. Now, from what we know, and I want to emphasize, from what we know, and the family has every right to ask these questions. It's not easy when it's your own mother or child, of course, but uh from an objective viewpoint, demand that proof of life, put a reward out at the same time, and you'll transfer to a cyber account once you get that proof of life. That would be my suggestion.

I mean, how difficult? Obviously, it's very I think the answer is obviously very vary. How difficult is it really for the FBI to trace the providence of an email that went to three different news organizations? And also, there's another electronic trail there somewhat in setting up the Bitcoin account, I guess, although I do think they're very we we did look into that a little when we did our fraud week and it's like good luck good luck tracking the Bitcoin unfortunately. But this seems like it should be within the FBI's cap capabilities. Like Jonathan, do you have any thoughts on like

that? How hard can it be? Well, it all depends on the the the person that was sending the email. If they have a system set up like Nigerians do a lot of the times when they do these bank fraud cases where uh they are broadcasting the uh the actual email from a different location or they have a program that that pushes it into a different location. That's where it becomes a little difficult for the bureau. But the but the FBI and their investigators that are specialized in this, they are really good at being able to uh reverse engineer any type of uh tactic that uh somebody using an email would have done. But again, Megan, we look at the Nigerians and these bank frauds. These are people that do tens of thousands of these almost on a daily basis. So, somebody who has never done, you know, a ransom email before, but maybe they know a little bit about Bitcoin, they're more likely to get caught, hence the guy in California.

Yes. Right. So, that makes sense. I want to point this out real quick. Um, like this is kind of a bottom line for me right now about where we are in this investigation

and some things that they could be looking at and they they may very well be, but what were the movements around that house before this? Uh, I'm talking about days before this. We look at Brian Coberger. He, you know, he was around there, they, I think they said over a dozen times around that house. And then the night that uh, he went to the house, he shut his cell phone off on the way there and turned it back on when he was on his way back home. Those are very telling pieces of evidence. And I would be looking at the family members like that. I'd be looking at their cars because nowadays you can the the computers in the cars tell you when it was turned on, when it was turned off, put in park, so on so forth. They can pull that information. And then lastly, that pacemaker could still it could still be broadcasting and because it went offline, it's still a Bluetooth um product. So 10 to 100 ft is the typical

distance that a Bluetooth can be picked up. And we do have technology in the bureau. It has been declassified, but I still don't like to talk about it too much, but they are very effective at picking up cell information. So effective that they can tell you where a person is in a building uh if they need to. So I think if if she is somewhere in the vicinity of that home or somewhere where they kind of get an idea perhaps where an email went back to um they could go with this specific equipment and potentially if they got close enough still find the uh broadcast from that pacemaker but they'd have to be very close.

Amazing. Can you imagine, Jonathan, if they're walking around the Tucson area with her phone, you know, waiting for it like with the Bluetooth on, waiting for it to connect to something, you just walking in front of as many houses as they possibly can in in areas that, you know, look sketchy or like a place you might hide somebody. And if it actually were to connect, that would be absolutely stunning and miraculous. And we we pray we're all praying every day that this is how this ends, that they find her, that this isn't a ruse, that kidnappers really do have her, and that for some purchase price or other pressure point, the Guthies can get her back. I mean, Bitcoin also,

that's what they're praying every morning and every night. If there's a way to have a holding uh account where they could put money into it and say, "We're not going to give you this money until we get proof of life." or if it was the big amount. We're not going to let you make the final transaction until we get her body, but we don't have any. We can't touch it, bring it back, but you can't grab it until we get this. I don't know if that exists in Bitcoin, but if it does, um, that would be something that I would I would be looking into, but again,

well, like an escrow. Sure. Yes. Yeah. Well, I mean, the uh the the the Bitcoin piece of it, I don't I feel like that's it is kind of sophisticated. I feel like, you know, if this were a family member, obviously Savannah's worldly and all that, but like I I don't think her siblings are as worldly. The brother's a fighter jet pilot and doesn't seem to have I don't he he was late to even get out to Tucson. The the sister Annie and her husband, they seem like workingass people, you know, she's she's a poet. The husband's part-time middle school teacher and plays drums in a band. I just unlike the Nigerians, I I don't think that they would necessarily have the sophistication to like craft this the email thing and like hold tough and like do the crypto account that's untraceable and get the email that's untraceable. That guy out in California got got caught because he was, you know, a nimrod. He used some service that will

change your phone number and make it look like you're not calling from your phone and then they they traced the fake phone number back to some account that had his email attached to it. They're like, "Oh, hello. We know exactly who it is." So, he was a dope. He was a stupid criminal. But the people setting up this whole Bitcoin thing don't seem like unsophisticated people. They seem to me more like people who have probably done this before.

So, that could be We did our fraud week. We That could be Nigerian. We learned that these people like they they operate like serious frauds. Like the guy who tried to defraud me and my husband and my husband's mom um they had a cast of characters playing actors like different parts. They had different phone numbers set up to like you can call here or the this is the courthouse. You can verify they're there. This is another number. We spoke to several different people who were involved. There was an actress who had changed her voice to sound like my sister-in-law. It was like crazy how elaborate it was. So this first of all, they have absolutely no feelings and would in a second try to hurt Savannah and her siblings at their lowest and worst moment without even thinking. They would not give a And um second of all, they really are sophisticated and if they think there's a deep pocket and they could get a

couple million bucks quickly, they'd absolutely do it, which makes way more sense to me.

That that's exactly right. That that's the people who could jump in on this and use that is are these professional people. That's where the difficulty in validating this. You pay 25 million, it may be going to some Nigerian group that that does bank and Bitcoin fraud. You know, that could be the case.

Okay. So, wait. So, so let's just follow that down the line for a second. Okay, let's say we're blaming the Nigerians, but let's face it, they deserve it. Um, let's say it's Nigerians, okay, just for short form. That leaves us with Okay, so that the the whole ransom thing is a is a fraud. That's just a that's a regular basic garden variety fraud.

Opportunist people. Many people have been opportunist, right? Thank you. Um, that leaves us with the question of what happened to Nancy, right? Okay. So now under this scenario, she wasn't taken by anybody looking for ransom because there's been no other demand other than this fake guy in California that we know of. Jim would want us to say that that we know of. It's possible they've got something they're not letting out of the bag. Maybe something that somebody showed an AI version of Nancy or a version of Nancy that led the family to say images can be easily manipulated. So can voices, please give us actual proof of life. That could have happened behind the scenes and none of us knows about it. Makes that 41 minutes seem a lot more interesting, doesn't it?

But but the family continues to say, both Cameron and Savannah and Annie the day before,

we need proof of life and we need to hear from you. We need to hear from you. We need a way of contacting you. So, it certainly doesn't sound like there's any person either behind the scenes, unknown to us, or the person behind the Bitcoin demand that's actually willing to engage with the family to talk to them to make clear their needs or to provide the proof of life. So, if there's no proof of life coupled with the ransom demand, I don't think we have a real kidnapper making it. I just like Jim points out, the person if they're doing that is doing it to get to get paid. So, if what you need to get paid and you actually have Nancy, is a picture of Nancy, you're gonna find a way to give it. You found a way to set up the Bitcoin. You found a way way to set up the email that's undetectable. How hard can it be to to set up an undetectable like a Polaroid picture of Nancy and and send it? Um,

so that leaves us with the question of what happened to her? Like, somebody didn't just kidnap her for fun. Like, let's just kidnap Nancy and like never give her back. Like, that'll be a good time. You know, it's not like a baby where like they get kidnapped and and they can get sold, you know, there's a black market for babies or, you know, for young children get sold into sex trafficking. It's horrid, but that that those are things that happen. There's no like market for 84 year old elderly women with heart problems where they're I I don't mean this in the crulest sense that it sounds, but like where they can't do any good for anybody, you know, they can't be used in a way that's sellable.

No value. Yeah. So monetary value then of course. Yeah. So what is her value and who does that value belong to? So that that is the question that you now have to ask. If it's not a ransom, then who has a motive either value in in the way of something they'll inherit or because they have an emotional need to get rid of her through anger or some kind of

So, but just just before we even get to that, Jonathan, what we're saying is if there's no kidnapper, then this is a murder. That's what we're saying. There's no no one's just going to kidnap her,

keep her alive for no reason. No one can think of an Yes. No one here can think of an alternate purpose.

Hence the removal for an 84 year old woman. Hence a removal, not a kidnapping, which would also if she was deceased inside the house and her heart is no longer beating. You may only have droplets of blood, not somebody bleeding. And so that's a big difference as well. There would be blood potentially where the injury occurred or maybe she just died, you know, because of her heart issue. But there could be some blood. Uh but she you would not see blood a long ways on once a heart stops the heart is the the pumping stops.

But wouldn't that be on the pacemaker? The pacemaker was communicating with the phone until 2:28 a.m. So the phone, which they have, they don't have Nancy, but they have the phone and the app's data up till 2:28 a.m. that morning. Wouldn't they see her heart is no longer beating? So, I feel like that's that's the argument against Nancy was murdered in the home. That's that's why I understand 228

that's why understanding what if there was she was alive if there was an issue that that pacemaker was reporting increased heart rate you know something that was an incident that was occurring before it went offline that is an important part of this because then you would see that she was actually assaulted or she was awakened and if that's closer to the beginning of that 41 minutes or at the end of the 41 minutes that may be telling one way or the other of how they reacted um at that point if that makes sense.

Okay. But yes, but I but but back to my point, don't you agree if they had killed Nancy in the home, we would know it thanks to that pacemaker which was communicating with the with the phone up to 2:28 a.m. Go ahead, Jeff. So, Megan, I'm just looking it up and it says for data transmission to a smartphone app, pacemakers generally need to be within uh recommended distance between 1 meter to ensure a

what our information was. It's like 30 feet that that they'll stop. Like if you get out about 30 feet away from your phone, your pacemaker will stop

which isn't very far. But no, but but but my point is like well what's your point? I mean, do you think I I feel like if Nancy had been killed in that house prior to 2:28 a.m., we'd know thanks to the pace.

And that's what I that's what I'm getting at and I agree with that if if if she was murdered in that house and her cell phone is there, that data should if we see a heart stoppage during that 40-minute time frame, I feel like it would be on the phone.

Mhm. And the crime scene would reflect it too. Sure. Yep. That and we don't know whether it does. You know, the the the sheriff is being pretty good about not saying anything about the crime scene, though. We know there's additional DNA and he did call homicide detectives first thing. Um, but I and maybe I'm wrong about maybe I'm not thinking about something with that pacemaker, but I just feel like if they're saying the pacemaker disconnected from the phone at 2:28 a.m., then that means they were still communicating, which means that the app on the phone would show her heart stopped. That's the whole point of having the app is so you can see what's going on with your heart and your doctor could potentially say that's be the first thing they would check. Did was she killed? Did the heart beat all the way up to 228 when the communications stopped? And I'm sure it did. Otherwise, why are we doing all this? Why?

Otherwise, why didn't they say we know she's dead? You know, like that that the sheriff's not in the business of wasting the nation's time. So, it must have been she must have been alive as of 2:28 a.m. Her heart must have still been beating and they and when it stopped commuting communicating, which means she was taken out of that house alive. And so, now that's the next question. If you're not kidnapping her for money, but you are kidnapping her, what the hell? Like, what what then what next in this case? What would be the point of doing that? To move her to another location to to murder?

Well, one thing that comes to mind to me would be if this person is acting alone, it's very hard to move dead weight. I don't care how strong you are. Um, so was that something where they put a gun to her and said, "Get in a car and then they took her away from the residence to kill her." Um, or were they operating in two people um to remove her? So, that's one angle to look at as well.

What were you going to say, Jim? Well, if this is a stranger and was some kind of a burglary or some other reason to go in there, we know we haven't discussed this week yet at all the concept. I'm not going there, but I'll mention it. Murder for hire. Uh it doesn't always have to be someone directly goes and strangles, punches someone like that. Uh but if someone goes there and uh it's a stranger with no other reason but maybe a burglary, something like that, there's no reason to take the body with them exponentially. You increase the odds of getting caught, arrested, all those things down the line. You have the hassle of disposing of a body. If it's someone known to the person, there may be more of a reason, especially if you're scared, maybe you haven't done this before, to get that body out of there. This this body could be just a hundred yards away in a in a in a shallow grave. And I'm assuming they've

done everything they could around the house. I'm hoping the trunk of her car has been open. There's cases I've been familiar with over the years. They search for days and the missing kid is inside the trunk of an old car. I'm sure that's all been examined, but it could be it could be much closer to home than we even know. uh animal activity will reflect some of that. I don't want to get too graphic here. I still want to think she's alive, but it's there's a whole different set of personality issues that come into play. Whether they know the woman, whether they don't know the woman, whether there someone else had them go there to do something to her, perhaps it went wrong. And and then what is the reason that that someone would hire someone to go there to do something bad to this woman? Uh it just it it just boggles the mind. and and I think it was Jonathan talked about puzzle pieces that even law enforcement

uh are dealing with. We have even fewer puzzle pieces out here because we don't have all the facts about this. So I I think it's our best when I've had investigators come into me at Quantico to do a you know put together a profile or behavioral assessment of a crime. I'd say here are the different options that you have to look into and here are the scenarios that have to play out. And I think I think we've done a pretty good job today, Megan, of laying out the different uh options in that regard. And police know more than we do. And uh and and hopefully they're following through every single lead that we've talked about and things we don't even know about in terms of this investigation.

I will say at the local level, as you know, coming from the local sheriff's office and investigating home invasions, whenever I hear home invasions, personally, I don't see home invasions in the middle of the night on 84 year old women. When I see home invasions at the local level that we work, you're involved in gambling, dope, prostitution, something like that. U for just a random home invasion. Look, it's 2026 and again, yes, we know that the the doorbells were disabled or things like that. A normal, you know, just criminal, let's just call it a crackhead that's just trying to break in and try to steal some money. Uh usually though they don't have the whereithal to do what at least some of the things that that are in this timeline I don't believe.

Megan well and as far as we know nothing was stolen. Yeah. And and so it's incredible what Chad was just pointing out there and also when James was pointing his things out earlier is that in all of these different aspects of criminality there are typical behaviors and statistics that go along with that. A crackhead going in and sexually assaulting somebody is most likely not going to try to bring the person out and they're certainly not going to try to extort them to this level. Um, somebody who is going to try to extort for ransom money and that is their objective, they are probably not going to be this vague and uh they're probably not going to linger in the house for 41 minutes. And so you have to look at at each one of these potential avenues and look at what is the typical behavior because it's all been done before. What is the statistics say that they will probably do when this crime occurs and then we need to start

looking the investigators will look at all of those things. And so as we go through these these scenarios it's uh this is how this whole system works. But uh when you don't have all the pieces of the puzzle, it becomes very chaotic. And especially for press when they're doing this, dealing with a sheriff who may be great at his job, but even Moses in the Bible asked God if his brother Aaron could go and speak for him because he wasn't eloquent. This sheriff would be very good to hand off the uh the speaking uh part of this to someone else because he's very confusing for the public.

H it is confusing. I do want to mention the van. The New York Post reporting that Nancy Guthri's neighbor Brett McIntyre told the Post on Thursday that he reported seeing an unmarked van to the police who asked him basic questions about what he observed in the days leading up to the disappearance of her dis of of Nancy Guthrie. Quote, "It was somewhere on that street, I think he means NY's. It was a white van full-sized with no printing on the sides. It was parked on the street. The McIntyre couldn't recall the exact day they spotted the van, but Brett said he did report it to the police. Now, when they say unmarked van, I think they just mean there was nothing on the sides, I don't think he means there wasn't a license plate. Maybe we're too tough on unmarked or on white vans. I have to say, as a woman, I don't go anywhere near them. You know, if I pull into a parking lot and there's a white van

there, I there's zero chance on parking my car next to like I grew up in the 70s. That's is exactly who's gonna grab you, you know, like you know this. Um,

we were the same way the rider impugn the white van. Yeah. Right. I don't know. It's like this is this is shoe leather reporting and potentially police work. Go ahead.

DC sniper white van. That's all that they were looking for. And of course, it was not a white van. A blue caprice or something. Yeah. You know, something I just want to throw out here. Uh, I've interviewed uh serial offenders in prison long after they've been sentenced and convicted. And you you'd want to know about how they chose certain victims and how they they're ingress or egress. And there's been at least a few of these guys that told me uh sometimes even just taking a confession across the table. You know, why did it take you so long to do whatever you're doing? And and it could be something as simple as a uh oh, I saw a police car go down the street. Now, it would be interesting to get the patrol uh logs of the officers on duty that night. Did by chance anyone go down the an officer go down the street? And that scared the be Jesus out of the people in there. And that's why they spent the extra 40 some minutes,

you know, in the house laying low. Uh, and I'm not saying it was actually a police car. It could have been some other factor, some other car even that went down the street and that scared them and they said, "We better lay low for course. The lights are out and whatever." White van, some other kind of a vehicle. No doubt a vehicle took her away from the scene and they said, "Let's lay low and make sure they're clear." So, I know we kind of kind of move past the the missing 40 plus minutes, but there could be a very logical reason when they finally identify these people and and they would say, "Well, that's why we did it. That's why we hung around longer."

There has to be video I want to ask you of the car going in and going out at that point in time of the night. There has to be video footage just of a clip of a car so they could even identify the shape of the car. But she, you know, she's 5'5. She wasn't slender built. So to carry somebody, you're not going to carry her down the block. You know, they drove there. So that vehicle had to have come there and left and and I just at 2 in the morning, almost 3:00 in the morning, that vehicle is going to be on a camera somewhere.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you'd like to think, but what one of the problems with this neighborhood is each lot is about an acre, two acres, and they're they're spread out and they're remote, like they're set back. And so, it's not like a normal neighborhood, you know, where like you have neighbors, I can see my neighbors, you know, like my neighbors can see me. it I think it is possible in this particular neighborhood to sort maybe get in and get out without anybody's nest camera or ring camera detecting you because the all the houses are set back.

It could be a bank down the road though or grocery store. I mean just any cars in the vicinity of that area, you know, I'm in Arizona and it is a dead it's a desert at night. There's there's hardly anybody moving at night and so especially in that type of location. If there's any store that has any video at all within I would even say 10 miles, I would try to pull some camera at that time to see any cars that that might have been heading to or from at that at those particular times. I would suggest that if they haven't done it, they should do it. And and Megan, you know, I was I didn't work this when it happened, but I was later inherited the case of the 2008 bombing uh pipe bombing of the recruiting state uh the military recruiting depot in Time Square. a guy rode up on a bicycle at three o'clock in the morning, put a bike bomb on, rode all the way back over to like 32nd Street, and we've never identified that

guy, and that's the most filmed place in the world, but we know a guy in a bicycle rode up at that time, and that I think would help in this in this scenario.

Um, I would be remiss if I didn't run the latest like silence of the lambs thing by you guys. Did you hear that? Um, it's it is interesting that it turns out Savannah used the exact same messaging in her video with her siblings that we saw in Silence of the Lambs. We talked about it in the top of our first hour. I'm just going to play the juxaposition for you guys here in Saut 0 C.

She is full of kindness and knowledge. Talk to her and you'll see. I'm speaking now to the person who is holding my daughter. Catherine is very gentle and kind. Talk to her and you'll see.

Jim, you're the linguist. Is that a coincidence? Life imitates art, huh? Uh, ironically, in a way, in the uh in a fake kidnapping case, the John Bené Ramsey case, because she was never left the house, found dead in the basement six hours later. In that ransom note, there were three separate movie references. One from Dirty Harry, one from the movie Speed, and a strong reference to the movie from The Usual Suspects with the whole foreign faction thing. So, uh, now this is different. That's the criminal, you know, whoever wrote that letter. That's for another episode, but, you know, they borrowed from from that. So, here are the family members of uh of the kidnapped or missing victim, uh, Mrs. Guthrie, using words from a movie. Is that subconscious? is that conscious. There's no doubt the FBI and the BAU went over their uh their their script and it it would have been their words, but they

they they certainly wanted to, you know, uh maybe suppress some items and and emphasize others and somehow I would like to think someone would have recognized those lines from the movie. Um, and again, I don't want to give too much sophistication to whoever the ransom note writer is or the team behind the if it is a for-profit kidnapping, but I'm not sure that would even make any difference to them. I give credit I didn't pick up on that line. I give credit to whoever did do their research. Uh,

somebody on the internet. Yeah, good good for the internet. Uh but uh I I don't maybe someday Samantha when all this is over and done with with a happy ending. Uh um Savannah I'm sorry Savannah she could tell us who in fact you know came up with those lines. So uh coincidence maybe again life imitating art subconscious out there. It's it's it's not untrue what she's saying. I'm sure her mother is a very nice person Savannah's mother. And hey talk to her. Again it comes down to uh Megan what we said a few days ago. Humanize Mrs.

Guthrie. give her core name, core mom, mommy. And that's part of what they said there. Um I guess it worked with Buffalo Bill. I believe the senator's daughter was rescued eventually. Uh and and let's hope as bizarre as the extrapolation is here. Let's hope it works out the same way.

And it's not so odd a phrase that it couldn't have just come come up again, you know, talk to her. You'll see that it's not such such an odd phrase. It couldn't have just been uttered spontaneously. Although nothing was spontaneous in the video. I'm sure it was all scripted. Can I ask you guys about the Cameron video last night? Because I do think it's interesting. Now it's just him. Now the sisters are not there. Now just the brother who said almost nothing in the first video has the whole show to himself. They shot the um video like basically almost neck up, little little lower than neck up, but not like a more of a body shot. And that's interesting because it cut off his script, which he was very clearly reading. In the first video with the three siblings, you could see their script. They weren't trying to hide that they were reading a script. But in this one, they they they shot it such that

you couldn't see the script, but you could very clearly tell he was reading, but he seemed to not necessarily want you to know he was reading. Like he was here, we'll play it.

Stand by. This is Cameron Guthrie. I'm speaking for the Guthrie family. Whoever is out there holding our mother, we want to hear from you. We haven't heard anything directly. We need you to reach out and we need a way to communicate with you so we can move forward. But first, we have to know that you have our mom. We want to talk to you and we are waiting for contact.

Any thoughts on why he played such a bit role in the first video but was the sole player in the in the second one?

My take on this is, and I may be totally wrong, but he, you know, he's a military man. He's a fighter pilot, I think, is what you were saying earlier. I mean, that's an that's aggressive personality.

Uh I I don't think he was happy with that first video. I think he it was a it was kind of a long video and uh they looked like they were being held captive reading it and I think that he uh or somebody or group of the family members wanted to do a different one. That's what that that appears to me. Um and the the flowery language and the things in the first one, I don't know what the relationship is between these siblings. I don't I you know it's hard to tell but uh you know that appears to me as though that was done with a cell phone as opposed to a camera with a script in front of you and a little bit more

of he wanted to do that. That's what it appears to me. And and Megan, I brought up the other day the first video. Um

I'm not questioning the brother at all, but interestingly he wore a baseball type cap that I couldn't make out what it said. He wore it again last night, the same cap whenever this was released and done. And here I did get it blown up and a friend of mine helped me. Saguarro National Park, which is a national park near Tucson, not too far from where they live. Could just be the hat he wears every day, or does it have some kind of meaning? It's actually a physical geographical location not far from there. Uh he and he wore it both times in both videos. I'm not putting a whole lot of stock into it. He could easily say, "Hey, I go I go everywhere with that hat." All right, that's it. But for some reason, a geographic location uh was represented on his hat in the two different uh family and pleading to be kidnappers, whoever they may be, uh videos, for what it's worth.

And that and now he's actually if if we think about it, we heard really Savannah and her sister talk, but think thinking about it, he's now the patriarch of that family, right? Dad's not around. All right. Mom and and and he's the only son. He's the patriarch. And maybe they're saying, "Hey, listen. You're you're the you're the strong patriarch of this family. You didn't say anything. We want, you know, let's put a video out from you."

I felt like he looked aggated. I think he is the oldest. Yeah. I think he looked aggravated in that first video myself. Um

Well, I think I my We were just wondering behind the scenes on the first video. Maybe they didn't have the man speak too much because, you know, men can be more aggressive. They're more threatening. Maybe it's better to have the softer women, the tearful, soft women say, "Please, please, please, please. Our mom, she's a grandma. We love her. Maybe that works better." And then not having gotten a result, they tried a different tactic, you know, like sort of manto man. I'm here. I'm I am the patriarch and I'm I'm subjugating myself to you. I'm I'm begging you to to be in communication. Like we're all here on bended knee. Maybe they intentionally lined it up that way. So they had like a third a third in reserve, you know, who could come forward and do his own video.

And I don't know what they do over the next few days. I'm sure they're getting increasingly desperate. if they have reason to believe that that Monday scary deadline is real. I mean, I can only pray that this is all that he was told to wear the hat. That Savannah was told to use no caps in her Instagram post. That Savannah's language and the way she and her sister were talking were somehow codes for some other kidnapper ransom note that we have no idea about from somebody who has actual proof of life or something that could become like that's I just feel like short of that I I feel I don't feel hopeful you guys. I don't I mean does anyone feel hopeful at this point? It's pretty shocking how a lot of these cases end up being just simply a bad family member or a bad encounter with somebody.

We still we haven't even talked anymore about the person that called in uh saying that they were worried about the church issue. I mean, it it's astounding how many of these cases end up being where we go down all these roads and it just ends up being somebody who's a real dirt bag that did something in some cockamin scheme that they thought they could get away with and they they just didn't plan their, you know, through it and so they end up killing the person. And if that's the case, I think

99.99%, right? Wouldn't you say a lot an accurate stat off the top of it's like the vast majority are exactly that. This one's just so bizarre in so many ways. You know, we're we're hoping for a better outcome than some nutcase got in there and hurt her or took her life and now we've been led falsely down this kidnapping lane. You guys, you've been like doing yman's work on this. We're so grateful to all three of you and I'm sure more to come. So, thank you.

Thank you, Megan. Thank you, Megan. We're going to be following any and all developments in this case. If there is anything significant, we will come live to you over the weekend. Uh, and at a minimum, we'll be bringing you the very latest on Monday. Thanks to all of you for listening. Have a great weekend. Hug your loved ones.

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "New Details About Guthrie Ransom Notes as DEADLINE Passes, and Notable Disappearance Timeline Change"?

Megan Kelly (Guest), Ashley Banfield (Guest), Cameron Guthrie (Guest).

What is "New Details About Guthrie Ransom Notes as DEADLINE Passes, and Notable Disappearance Timeline Change" about?

New developments in the case of missing Nancy Guthrie reveal inconsistencies in messaging from law enforcement, raising questions about potential suspects, including her son-in-law. Additionally, an unusual Instagram message from Guthrie's family has sparked speculation regarding its intent and possible ties to her disappearance.

What is mentioned in this Megyn Kelly episode?

14 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Nancy Guthrie, Megan Kelly, Ashley Banfield, Savannah Guthrie, FBI, Tomaso Cion. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "New Details About Guthrie Ransom Notes as DEADLINE Passes, and Notable Disappearance Timeline Change"?

The episode runs 2 h 20 min; the transcript is about 26,882 words in 294 timestamped sections.

More from Megyn Kelly

About this transcript: the episode's spoken words as captioned on YouTube, split into timestamped sections. Reclip.Me locates every person, work and idea in the text, keeps the time it is first named, and quotes the words around it verbatim. Last updated February 7, 2026.