Transcript

News About Guthrie Kidnapping Investigation, & GOP in Hollywood, w Kelsey Grammer, Brian Entin, More

From Megyn Kelly · Episode page · Watch on YouTube

· 3 h 1 min · 34,714 words · 428 timestamped sections

This is the full, timestamped transcript of "News About Guthrie Kidnapping Investigation, & GOP in Hollywood, w Kelsey Grammer, Brian Entin, More", an episode of Megyn Kelly published February 6, 2026 (3 h 1 min, about 34,714 words). It mentions 17 people, works and ideas, including Nancy Guthrie, Megan Kelly, Savannah Guthrie, FBI, Tucson.

What this episode is about

The investigation into the kidnapping of Nancy Guthrie, the 84-year-old mother of NBC News host Savannah Guthrie, intensifies as Savannah and her siblings release a heartfelt video plea for her safe return, addressing the worrying reports of a ransom letter. The emotional weight of their public appeal underscores the family's desperation, as they seek confirmation of Nancy's well-being amid a climate of uncertainty and fear.

Key takeaways

  • Savannah Guthrie's raw appeal marks a stark contrast to her polished anchor persona—grief knows no filters.
  • The siblings' scripted delivery highlights the delicate balance between urgency and discretion in hostage situations.
  • Savannah's visible distress could evoke empathy—or fear. In kidnappings, the human element changes every equation.
  • Deliberate production choices in the plea signal a careful strategy, possibly more effective than television flair.
  • Savannah’s vulnerability serves as a reminder: behind every news anchor is a real family facing unimaginable crisis.

Who speaks in this episode?

What is discussed, and when

  1. – 15:00: Savannah Guthrie, Megan Kelly, Nancy Guthrie, Tucson
  2. – 30:00: Nancy Guthrie, FBI, Simply Safe, COVID-19
  3. – 45:00: Nancy Guthrie, Jonathan Gilliam, Annie Guthrie
  4. – 1:00:00: Nancy Guthrie, Megan Kelly, Annie Guthrie, Jim Fitzgerald
  5. – 1:15:00: Jim Fitzgerald, Nancy Guthrie, FBI, Savannah Guthrie
  6. – 1:30:00: Nancy Guthrie
  7. – 1:45:00: Nancy Guthrie, Tucson, Tomaso Cion, St. Andrews Presbyterian
  8. – 2:00:00: Tucson, Savannah Guthrie
  9. – 2:15:00: Nancy Guthrie, Kelsey Grammar, Megan Kelly, Tucson
  10. – 2:30:00: Kelsey Grammar
  11. – 3:01:03: Kelsey Grammar

Notable quotes from "News About Guthrie Kidnapping Investigation, & GOP in Hollywood, w Kelsey Grammer, Brian Entin, More"

  • Show with actor Kelsey Grammar that you're not going to want to miss. But first, the latest in the search for Nancy Guthrie, the 84year-old mother of NBC News host Savannah…
    about Nancy Guthrie · at
  • Brian, welcome. Thank you for all the great reporting you've been doing on this case. What did you make of that video last night?
    about Megan Kelly · at
  • Days confused but it was the night before the news went public about the ransom letters that the sheriff took the r one of the ransom letters to Savannah Guthrie directly and…
    about Savannah Guthrie · at
  • The house yesterday and we saw Savannah's brother there. They were coming and going. and the FBI was there the day before yesterday and then yesterday the only agents that I…
    about FBI · at
  • So, the church near her house that we went to, the pastor told my producer the same thing that the Daily Mail is reporting that she switched to online after COVID and was didn't come to.
    about St. Andrews Presbyterian · at
  • Enforcement now out and looking in as you know and James would know, we're we're trying to investigate what the police are actually doing.
    about Jonathan Gilliam · at
  • Merely human just normal human people who need our mom. So, am I reading too much into this Jim? Well, as a linguist, forensic linguist who compares language all the time from…
    about Jim Fitzgerald · at
  • P.m. today by which to send the Bitcoin. We know that it named two things. We heard TMZ earlier today say there were things in there that turned out to be true that the writer…
    about TMZ · at

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

  • Nancy Guthrie — Person · Missing person / central subject of news coverage · 22 mentions · first at
    Her disappearance is the core breaking-news story being analyzed; details about her last known movements, health, and possible ransom communications drive the episode.
  • Megan Kelly — Person · Host · 5 mentions · first at
    She anchors the episode, frames the timeline and investigative questions, interviews reporters and former FBI agents, and provides commentary on the family video and law-enforcement actions.
  • Savannah Guthrie — Person · Referenced public figure / family spokesperson in crisis · 8 mentions · first at
    As an NBC News host and daughter of the missing woman, she appears in the family video appeal and is central to the public-facing communications and investigative attention.
  • Annie Guthrie — Person · Referenced family member / on-camera spokesperson · 4 mentions · first at
    She appears in the family appeal video and is discussed in reporting about law-enforcement activity at her home and questions about who last saw Nancy.
    Going to be right here at the sheriff's office. That's why I'm in the car. But, so a few things I noticed. I was outside Annie Guthri's house yesterday when federal agents…
  • Jim Fitzgerald — Person · Guest expert (former FBI) / analyst · 4 mentions · first at
    He analyzes the family video and investigative signaling, discusses negotiation dynamics, and provides behavioral/linguistic framing for interpreting communications.
  • Jonathan Gilliam — Person · Guest expert (former FBI / former Navy SEAL) / analyst · 4 mentions · first at
    He evaluates law-enforcement tactics, discusses abduction/ransom plausibility, and outlines investigative hypotheses and risk factors (e.g., border proximity).
  • Tomaso Cion — Person · Referenced family member by marriage / discussed in reporting · 2 mentions · first at
    He is Annie Guthrie's husband and is repeatedly mentioned in connection with who dropped Nancy off and in disputed reporting about investigative focus.
    That they have I mean I hate to say it this way but I don't know they have like real jobs. Annie is a poet. and Tomas is like in a band and I think was a teacher. I was looking…
  • Cameron Guthrie — Person · Referenced family member / on-camera participant · 3 mentions · first at
    He appears in the family video appeal alongside Savannah and Annie and is described as a retired fighter jet pilot.
    Filmed on a couch seated together, Annie was on screen left, Savannah was in the center, and their brother Cameron, whose I think retired fighter jet pilot was on the right.…
  • Kelsey Grammar — Person · Referenced upcoming guest (teaser) · 5 mentions · first at
    Mentioned briefly as a later interview subject, separate from the Nancy Guthrie case coverage.
    Hey everyone, I'm Megan Kelly. Welcome to the Megan Kelly Show. We've got a great interview coming up later in the show with actor Kelsey Grammar that you're not going to want to miss. But first, the latest in the search for.

Companies & orgs

  • FBI — Company · Law enforcement agency · 3 mentions · first at
    Actively involved in the investigation of Nancy Guthrie's disappearance, providing expertise and resources.
  • TMZ — Company · Media outlet · 3 mentions · first at
    Reported on the ransom letters in the Nancy Guthrie case, providing public updates.
  • Better Business Bureau — Company · Rating agency · 1 mention · first at
    Mentioned in the context of Birch Gold Group's credibility.
    There's no obligation, just useful information with an A+ rating from the Better Business Bureau and tens of thousands of happy customers. Consider letting Birch Gold help you…

Places & events

  • Tucson — Place · Setting · 11 mentions · first at
    The city where Nancy Guthrie disappeared, central to the investigation.
    Show with actor Kelsey Grammar that you're not going to want to miss. But first, the latest in the search for Nancy Guthrie, the 84year-old mother of NBC News host Savannah…
  • St. Andrews Presbyterian — Place · Church · 2 mentions · first at
    The church Nancy Guthrie reportedly attended, mentioned in the context of her disappearance.
  • COVID-19 — Event · Historical context · 2 mentions · first at
    Mentioned in relation to changes in church attendance habits.
    Two other quick questions. The Daily Mail today is reporting that Nancy Guthrie did not attend a church in person and that she hadn't been for years since the COVID pandemic.

Sponsors

  • Simply Safe — Product · Sponsor · 2 mentions · first at
    Advertised as a home security system during the podcast.
    Knowing your family is truly safe no matter what. That's where Simply Safe comes in. It's the security system millions of Americans rely on to protect what matters most.…
  • Birch Gold Group — Company · Sponsor · 1 mention · first at
    Promoted as a service for diversifying savings into precious metals.
    In the last 20 years. And a never- ending list of reasons smart Americans diversify a portion of their savings into precious metals with Birch Gold Group. Gold can thrive…

Full transcript with timestamps

Hey everyone, I'm Megan Kelly. Welcome to the Megan Kelly Show. We've got a great interview coming up later in the show with actor Kelsey Grammar that you're not going to want to miss. But first, the latest in the search for Nancy Guthrie, the 84year-old mother of NBC News host Savannah Guthrie, who has not been seen since Saturday night. As we told you on AM update this morning, if you missed AM update, you should listen to it. Um, we always have a lot of great developments in there. There was a major development last night when we heard from Savannah and her siblings themselves. In a nearly 4minute video filmed on a couch seated together, Annie was on screen left, Savannah was in the center, and their brother Cameron, whose uh I think retired fighter jet pilot was on the right. Savannah pleads for her mother's return and addresses the reports of a ransom letter.

We too have heard the reports about a ransom letter in the media. As a family, we are doing everything that we can. We are ready to talk. However, we live in a world where voices and images are easily manipulated. We need to know without a doubt that she is alive and that you have her. We want to hear from you and we are ready to listen. Please reach out to us. We're going to play a few more of these clips with our law enforcement experts later, but a few observations. Let me just give you this one first. Okay. It was stunning to watch. Stunning.

Because everyone in this country, virtually everyone in this country, has seen Savannah Guthrie on tape countless times looking directly into camera or reading a script in front of her. We've all seen that many times. And this was so different that, you know, of course she looked distraught. I mean, she looked exhausted. Doug and I were talking about this last night. I'll bet she had absolutely no sleep. How would you fall asleep at night without a sleeping pill? When your mother was missing, when you when you didn't know whether your mom was alive or dead, whether she was in the custody of bad guys who wanted to hurt her, when you'd seen what we believe was her blood outside of her home, when you know she's doesn't have access to her medication that she needs. I mean, you could just see you could see that wear and tear on Savannah's face, and you just wanted to reach out and try to make it better for

her. It was very jarring to see her that upset and just distraught is the word. Um, look, the the video itself was also somewhat jarring because it's of course not what you would expect from a top paid news anchor. Clearly, they did not want to make it a slick video. Obviously, she knows how to do that and she would have the full resources of NBC to do it if she wanted to. Clearly, they intentionally went a different way. It It's not even like HD quality video, even just like the quality of the actual filming, the film. Um, the background is as bland as can be. The siblings, they're cramped together to all get into frame, which is also an interesting choice. Um, and they never acknowledge each other. The three siblings never acknowledge each other. They never like really interact.

They also all read from a script. Savannah, um, she adlibs all the time on the Today Show, as you know. But here, she did not she did not want to say one word that wasn't previously written down, which I mean, I think we all know why. I mean, this had to have been coordinated closely with law enforcement and I'm sure some sort of hostage negotiator to make sure no triggers were were activated, you know, in a potential bad guy who's got her mom. And to the contrary, that maybe they could press some button inside this person that might I don't even want to say tug on a heartstring. How do you bank on that even being available in a kidnapping case like this? But they're trying to reach him. So, it's all carefully orchestrated. And as we're going to show you, the first part of the message is dedicated to how wonderful their mom is.

Is there something strategic about that? Um, none of the spouses appear in this video. We're going to see what we can glean from all of this in just a bit with two former FBI agents. But first, we're going to go to someone who's been on the ground in Arizona getting scoop after scoop, and that's News Nation's Brian Enton. Don't miss a moment. Subscribe to this show on YouTube and follow me on Insta, Facebook, and X. International disputes, inflation, rising national debt, digital currency. There is a never- ending list of reasons that gold has risen over 700% in the last 20 years. And a never- ending list of reasons smart Americans diversify a portion of their savings into precious metals with Birch Gold Group. Gold can thrive during uncertainty, which is why it's a crucial part of a balance strategy. It gives you peace of mind given all the events that could impact the US economy. See if

holding gold in a tax sheltered retirement account is right for you. Birch Gold can help you convert an existing IRA or 401k into an IRA in gold. Just text MK to the number 989898 to receive your free info kit on gold. There's no obligation, just useful information with an A+ rating from the Better Business Bureau and tens of thousands of happy customers. Consider letting Birch Gold help you diversify with gold so you too can have peace of mind regardless of the uncertainty. Text MK to the number 989898. Brian, welcome. Thank you for all the great reporting you've been doing on this case. What did you make of that video last night?

Well, a few things that I noticed. I'm sitting in the car, by the way, Megan, outside where the press conference is going to be right here at the sheriff's office. That's why I'm in the car. But, um, so a few things I noticed. I was outside Annie Guthri's house yesterday when federal agents arrived. the IAC agents with which are the internet crimes against children agents, but they specialize in kidnappings and going through electronic devices. And I noticed that they walked in with a ring light and a small tripod for an iPhone, which I thought was strange. Like, why are they going in with a ring light? It all makes sense now. They were the ones who helped coordinate the video. They uh likely are the ones who helped come up with the script. Um and uh yeah, there's the video right there. That was them going in. So, uh, it was just kind of interesting after I saw the video, I thought, "Okay, that makes sense now.

That's why they had the ring light and and the tripod." The other thing that I've learned is it is no coincidence that the video was just posted on Instagram. Uh, I have been told that there is an arrangement that has been made between FBI and Instagram. um where behind the scenes they're now able to monitor messages that are coming in, comments that are coming in um and they can you know work with Instagram to go back and and uh you know trace where these things are coming from in terms of if anyone now tries to reach out to Savannah saying you know I'm the one who sent the note.

Brian, what did you make of her statement there um Savannah's where she said we've heard the reports about a ransom letter. I mean, almost certainly the authorities have shown her the ransom letters that have come in, right? There have been three in total and um you know, we haven't had independent confirmation that they're identical, right? Like there could be we don't know. In my head, I was kind of assuming it was all the same thing, but we actually don't know whether they're identical, but wouldn't you believe that Savannah had seen the ransom letters prior to now?

She has seen the ransom letters. I can confirm that. I I heard that from the sheriff uh and she saw let's see today's Thursday. So we started reporting about the ransom letters um yesterday and it was the night before So I'm getting my days confused but it was the night before the the news went public about the ransom letters that the sheriff took the r one of the ransom letters to Savannah Guthrie directly and showed it to her. Uh when no one even knew the ransom letter existed yet. Remember TMZ? Yeah. No, we didn't know. It was the night before that. Um, so they were very quiet about about it, but they already had the ransom letter and they went and showed Savannah the ransom letter.

Wait, didn't the r I'm trying to remember. I think the ransom letter hit on TMZ on Tuesday, which would mean Monday night Savannah was shown the ransom letter, which which makes this a little bit more interesting because one of the things that seemed sketchy about the ransom letter was it took them a few days to get out their demand for millions of dollars. You know, like you've got a woman in custody and you're kind of sitting around waiting while the whole world is talking about this case. But if they stole her in the wee hours of Sunday morning and the very next day made this demand, maybe it's more credible. And we don't know whether the ransom letters are credible at all. We don't know whether she actually was kidnapped by somebody. We don't know whether she was, forgive me, but possibly killed in the house and they just got rid of the body. We we don't know any of that. But we are keeping an

open mind on the ransom letters because it certainly seems like Savannah and her siblings are.

Yeah, that's right. And you're right, I got my days confused. It was Tuesday that TMZ went public with their ransom letter. It was Monday night, I am told, that the sheriff went to Savannah Guthrie with the ransom letter. And I'm told it's it's the ransom letter that went to the local TV affiliate here in Tucson that was shown to Savannah. I don't know if they're all the same. Um, the other thing that I thought was interesting, Megan, in the video is she talks about, you know, there's ways to manipulate video and audio these days, like with AI, which also makes me wonder, did they send some kind of video um with with a voice with a voice sounding like Nancy and now Savannah saying, "We need more. We need to know that this is actually real."

That's exactly I have the same issue. Exactly. Like why would you talk about how images and voices have been manip or or easy to manipulate unless you'd someone had taken a shot? That's how it seemed to me. You know, I don't know if you've spoken with uh Harvey Leven or any of the folks who have received the ransom notes. But when I hear them talk about them, like I can't tell whether they believe them. You know, it seems that they have some some doubt. Brian, I don't know. There was Mary Coleman. She spoke with CNN yesterday and she seemed like, you know what, keep an open mind on the ransom note. It it really Here's a clip. Um, it's ST 6. Listen here.

A lot of it is information that only someone who is holding her for ransom would know. Some very sensitive information and things that uh people who weren't there when she was taken captive would know. One of the detectives did get back to us and ask us for some more information so that they can start searching for an IP address and things of that nature to try and figure out who or what people are responsible here. You know, it also included a dollar amount, a deadline, and and again other specifics that that only Guthri's abductor might know. So, that definitely raised some red flags.

When we saw some of those details, it um was clear after a couple of sentences that uh you know, this might not be a hoax. So that's that was a much more ringing endorsement of the ransom note being real than I heard from Harvey Leven. He seemed he didn't seem to dismiss it, Brian, but he seemed a little bit more skeptical. Um, so what are you hearing more about what was in the ransom notes that would have led to, for example, this anchor Mary Coleman to say, "No, we believe it was clear a couple from a couple of sentences this this was not this might not be a hoax."

Yeah. I mean, I think they must think they might be real or they wouldn't have had Savannah Guthrie make that video that came out last night. All I know about what is in the ransom notes is that there is specific information about what Nancy Guthrie was wearing. Uh, and also specific information about details from inside the house that apparently only someone would know who was inside the house. What I don't know is if any of that information is correct. Is it even the right outfit that she was wearing? I don't know. Um and and the sheriff look the sheriff

and how would the family know what she was wearing, right? That's a good point. And yeah, unless they just I don't know if they, you know, go in the house when she goes to bed sometimes and they know about her pajamas or Yeah, that that's true. We don't know if that the family would even know.

Mhm. Um All right. Talk to me about what you saw yesterday because you've been on scene. You're the one the the audience probably knows, but you're the one who found the blood the droplets of blood still left outside of the front door. The one of the news media. Obviously, we believe the cops had this, but they they left they turned the house back over to the family and they left it unguarded and you went on the doorstep like a good old-fashioned suit shoe leather reporter and found the actual evidence, which was shocking to see. And then, Brian, they they reassumed custody of the house yesterday.

Yeah, that was kind of shocking. I was just out there uh you know, I'd been out there for like 36 hours just waiting to see if anything happens. And and the Guthri had hired private security to come out and just sit in the driveway. So, we're used to seeing them, but then all of a sudden around 4:30, uh, all of these deputies drive down the street in unmarked pickup trucks and in like an in a a big evidence van. Uh, and and then they all got out of there were others that got out of a minivan. And at first, I thought they were FBI, but I do think they were local sheriff's deputies. They were in just plain clothing. And all of a sudden, I I got this video. They they start putting the crime scene tape back up. Uh, and they all got out of the car and we put our drone up right away because it's hard to really see what's going on because it's, you know, the house is kind of set back and there's

all the cactuses and we could see that they were searching the area around the house, but then also they were going in and out of the garage uh with evidence bags uh bringing things out and it looked like we were trying to see through the windows. There was one room in the front of the house that they were definitely in the entire time and they were there. Yeah, there's our shot of the

This is your video, by the way, as you're speaking. We're showing of the garage. You got this with your drone. Keep going.

That's the garage. Yeah. And so they were I think they knew what they were after because it it all seemed just so coordinated because they put the tape up, they were there for just 2 hours, then they all packed up very quickly. They took the tape down uh and they were gone.

And what happened um in the back of the property? same like more searching back there because as you know our our mutual friend Ashley Banfield is reporting that a law enforcement source told her a bunch of things including that um the back door was wide open when law enforcement showed up and that the Ring camera the it was a Nest camera um had been destroyed both the one in the front and the one in the back. So there is some question about whether the intruder may have used the back door and what happened back there because they were they were behind the house yesterday.

No, they were Yeah, they were behind the house and they also had a canine uh that they had out there, you know, sniffing around and going around the house. Uh but it seemed like they were more focused inside the house. I mean, at first they did a search around the house, which you can see here, they went out into the brush. Um but then they it seemed like most of the time then they all went into the house.

H um what what was the grid search you reported on yesterday? So, I was going back and forth between NY's house and Annie's house, which is about 10 minutes away, just trying to kind of keep an eye on both places. And when I was driving back to NY's house in her neighborhood, there was another search happening with about uh half a dozen deputies um where they were, you know, lined up doing a grid search in a field near her house. Um, so I don't know if they got

the way you do like forgive me to to find like a a dead body potentially like where where you're sort of shoulderto-shoulder walking together.

Correct. Or or like a little piece of evidence. That way they don't miss anything. They all line up. Uh so they were doing that and then the night before uh right before the sunset there was this helicopter that came out, a sheriff's office helicopter uh that did a pass over the house. So, at first I thought like, oh, maybe they were just coming to check on things, but then they were there for an hour hovering very, very low with two deputies peering out the helicopter, looking down and just circling the house. So, I I think they're probably getting different tips coming in that they have to run out on and check on. Maybe they heard there was something in the field yesterday and that's why they were there. Uh, but they've they've definitely been very active.

We have this online video of uh Nancy Guthy's house and the property around it. And it really does show the backyard. It It's not that big. You can see there's brush. Can we put it on the screen, please? There's brush in the back of the house. Um but it's not it's not like huge. This is just from from Google Maps. So, it's like it wouldn't take that long to search that, Brian. In other words, like it's very manageable to make sure, god forbid, she's not back there or a a weapon wouldn't be back there. It's not it's not a ton to search. Am I wrong?

No, you're not wrong at all. Um and and that area, you know, it like I said, it's it's wooded with cactuses, but it's also kind of open like it it wouldn't be terribly difficult to search. Um and they did a search the first day, too. You know, they had Border Patrol out here. They had the Border Patrol dogs. So, it it seems like they've been pretty thorough in terms of searching the land around the house. Mhm. So now what happened at Annie Guthri's house where by the way

she lives there with her husband Tomaso, right? And is Savannah staying with them?

She is. It's my understanding she is staying there. We haven't seen her come out but it would we heard she was there and it makes perfect sense because when I saw them go in with the ring light and the tripod and then they recorded the video I presume inside that house with Savannah. So I I I'm 99% sure she's there. Um, and

can you describe the house for us? Like what what kind of house is it? Yeah, it's it's kind of a ranch style. I think they bought it a couple years ago for $650,000. It's a nice house. The the neighborhood is similar to NY's h NY's neighborhood where the houses all sit on maybe like an acre of land or a couple of acres. Uh it's not right in town. It's out also in the foothills. Um and it it's just kind of

what do they do for a living? It's kind of like a normal house and and her husband.

Uh uh Annie is a poet. Like I don't know that they have I mean I hate to say it this way but I don't know they have like real jobs. Annie is a poet. Uh and Tomas is like in a band and I think was a was a teacher. I was looking through records yesterday. I know he either worked or still works at a charter school. Um and so they you know they have like normal cars. I think she has a Camry and then there's an SUV. Um and so I saw Tomas and Annie together leaving the house uh the day before yesterday. So that would have been Tuesday. I didn't see Tomas at all yesterday and none of my like friends or colleagues that were out there keeping an eye on the house saw him either, but we did see Annie outside the house yesterday and we saw uh Savannah's brother there. They were coming and going. Um and the FBI was there the day before yesterday and then yesterday the only uh agents that I saw were those IAC agents that were going in

presumably to help make the video. Yeah. the um you know Ashley's reporting that the authorities seized Annie's car the day before yesterday. Did you see two cars on property or do you have any reason to you know believe or disbelieve that particular piece of her reporting?

Yeah, I I don't have any reason to disbelieve it, but I don't I don't know that I saw one car outside and there could be a car in the garage. No one got any video of a car being towed, which I think is kind of interesting just cuz there's, you know how it is at these things, there's like always some camera outside. There's like these paparazzi that show up and freelance people who stay there all night. So, I'm kind of surprised we never saw any video. I mean, that would be kind of a big deal for the car to be towed. You know,

that's a good point. Well, and we don't know whether it's true. Even Ashley doesn't know that it's true. She was told by one single senior law enforcement source that it was and no one else has been able to match the reporting on that or the other piece about Annie's husband Tomas which also remains unconfirmed but we don't know what's happening there. No reporting right at this at this point about any suspects or persons of interest.

Right. That's right. Other than Ashley's right she's she's that that's the only reporting I've heard. The latest from the sheriff is that there's no known suspect and no person of interest which which back to what Ashley has said. I mean, it wouldn't be uncommon for them to be essentially lying to us. I mean, we've seen it happen again and again in other cases. Uh, but but they seem pretty passionate when they say that they don't have a suspect.

The um So, what did they do at Annie's house? Did they search Annie's house or did they just go inside with camera equipment to help presumably film that video?

Yeah, I didn't see them searching at all. I just saw them go in with the um with the camera equipment and then the day before just kind of talking to them in the driveway. And and the thing is if not I I'm pretty sure Savannah is staying there, it would make sense that they would be coming to the house frequently to give them updates, to check on them, to talk to them. So I don't think it's that unusual that the feds are coming in and out.

Yes. And just to be clear, over at the mom's house, NY's house, there were two searches yesterday. One in the afternoon and then another one in the evening that included the garage and the helicopter overhead.

So the one search uh in earlier in the day was not actually at her house. It was close by in in the field. The only search at her house was the one later at 4:30 where it was kind of the big hab where they shut, you know, shut everything down, put the crime scene tape up. Uh, so that was just that was the only search at her actual house.

Two other quick questions. The Daily Mail today is reporting that that Nancy Guthrie did not attend a church in person and that she hadn't been for years since the COVID pandemic. that instead she'd been participating in the live stream into this church. And then they had one source at the church who told them that the church for the record is not saying that on the record. They're not saying anything. They're saying we're not commenting. Um but they're saying there'd be no way for anybody to know who is participating in the live stream. It's not it's not like a thing where you can see who's joining um you know people live stream in or they don't. Now, that would be a material change from the story that the sheriff told, which was that somebody at church noticed Nancy wasn't there. She was a religious churchgoer and um that that person called the family out of concern. Have you heard anything on this

either way? So, the church near her house that we went to, the pastor told uh my producer the same thing that the Daily Mail is reporting that she switched to online after COVID and was didn't come to church on Sundays. I just assumed maybe she also went to a different church. Um that that was just my first assumption that maybe we had the wrong church or that she had switched in the last couple of months or maybe you know sometimes people go to like a couple churches. Maybe she goes online to that one sometimes and likes a different one too some Sundays. Um so I didn't read into it like the sheriff definitely had the wrong story. I just thought gosh maybe there's another church we don't know about.

Yep. That could be was yet another another button we need to close. Last but not least, what are we expecting at the presser that happens today at 1 pm Eastern?

Honestly, I don't know. I mean, it's it's been so unpredictable with this sheriff. You know, the first couple of days, he was very open and every time you would call or interview him, he would kind of give you a new little nugget. Uh, and then once the FBI got involved at the last press conference, he was much much more guarded. Uh, so I'm not sure what to expect. Um, I mean, he's obviously going to have to comment on the search yesterday on Savannah's new video. He the last time we've seen him on camera, he was said that he believed that Nancy Guthrie is alive, which was kind of a big statement to make. So, I'm interested to ask him about that. Um, so honestly, I

know. But then he followed it up with I I have to believe that. I have to say like he says these things and then he says that's and then he'll say, well, that's what my gut tells me. And it's like, okay, so is this based on the investigation or is this based on what your gut is telling you? You know, it's like kind of weird.

Yeah. I feel like we're 321 until the FBI takes over messaging entirely in this case and maybe we'll see some of that today. I don't we're we're tminus half an hour or so until it starts. Brian, you're the best. Love your reporting. Thank you so much for everything.

Thank you so much, Megan. I appreciate that. Brian Anton, everybody check out his YouTube feed because he keeps us on the edge of our seats. He's always walking, always walking. He covered Coleberger like nobody else and he's covered this case great as well. Um, coming up, we've got two former FBI agents to weigh in on that video and the latest developments. Let's talk about something we all want. Real peace of mind. It might start with knowing your family is truly safe no matter what. That's where Simply Safe comes in. It's the security system millions of Americans rely on to protect what matters most. Traditional alarms, they only react after a burglar is already inside. It's too late. Simply Safe's Active Guard Outdoor Protection changes that. AI powered cameras with live professional monitoring agents watch your property 24/7. If someone is lurking or acting suspicious, those agents spot it, speak to them in real

time, blast spotlights, and call police before they ever get near your door. No long-term contracts, no cancellation fees. Monitoring starts at about $1 a day, plus a 60-day money back guarantee. It's been named best home security system by US News, 5 years running and number one in customer service by Newsweek and USA Today. So why wait? Protect your home today and enjoy 50% off a new Simplysafe system with professional monitoring at simplysafe.com/megan. That's sim.commegyn. There's no safe like Simplysafe. We're going to break down the latest now with the search for Nancy Guthrie from a law enforcement perspective with two of the best. Former FBI supervisory special agent Jim Fitzgerald, co-host of the Cold Red podcast, and former Navy Seal and FBI special agent Jonathan Gilliam are with me now. Guys, great to see you.

Jim, welcome back uh to you as well. So, um that video was quite something. I'll kick it off with you, Jim. Um since you you've been our guide through this, what did you make of it? Yeah, it was it was predictable and I don't mean that in a bad way, but we talked in the last few days, Megan, about uh this was going to be done and it was going to be done under advisement of uh of the FBI and the sheriff's department, perhaps even some attorneys uh uh of the Guthrie family. So, uh it was it was it was well facilitated and put together in that regard. The visuals were important and obviously the words were important. Um the the goal was to humanize Mrs.

Guthrie to make sure that she is seen as a human being. Uh I don't think they called her Nancy once if I recall.

One time one time they meant they said her name. Everyone else every other time was mom uh mama mommy. And that's good. That's that's that's healthy. I was glad to see that. I would have advised uh the the victims in this case to do the same thing. uh it was all about uh her fragility both you know uh physically uh you know and her heart certainly in that regard and her overall health and I'm glad they brought that up too. So the important part in that in that presentation was humanize her number one and then say look we're open to talk.

We're open to discuss this matter. Give us some sort of communication. Now what we don't know yet Megan is are one or more of these notes these letters these these communications real or ones we don't even know about that are real? And are there certain words or expressions that the uh kidnappers, again, we're assuming at this point perhaps that's what it is, wanted them to put in there. I know in the DC sniper case, Chief Moots was asked to put the line out there. We have the ducks in a noose. I'm I'm paraphrasing. There was an odd spelling of the word noose. So, there's times that kidnappers, they have the control, they have the power, they want to put people out there uh saying something. I also want to know and I'll leave it at this. Uh I think was that the who was sitting next to Savannah?

I'm not sure who the man was. Her brother. Savannah's brother Cameron, her older brother.

And he said something at the very end. Not much. And he was wearing a a baseball cap, but I couldn't make out what the logo was on the cap. Uh I'm not sure if that's significant or not.

Interesting. Uh it may be nothing. Maybe he always wears a baseball cap wherever he goes. But I would like to know if that is something that the uh you know put a baseball cap on this means you're willing to do this that or the other to try to get mom back. So there are just some very basic

some sort of signal possibly speaking there. There can I ask you about this line? So Savannah I mentioned at the top of the hour it was extraordinary to witness. I mean it was excruciating. Um, but it was also jarring because, you know, Savannah's manner, her everything about her was just so different than what we normally see for obvious reasons. But I also did wonder, you know, there's a reason, Jim, she didn't deviate from that script, right? I mean, like Savannah can absolutely look into camera and speak from the heart, especially on an issue like this, but they they probably did not allow that, right? I mean, they I would imagine the FBI is saying absolutely not.

Yeah. Don't go off script. It may not have been written word for word, but certainly bullet points. I have no doubt they rehearsed it. And this this is all a positive thing. They should have and uh and did a few different versions. And they no doubt, you know, and she it was from the heart. She didn't have to fake that. Of course, we're aware of that. Nor her sister, nor her brother. So, uh but they wanted to make sure the right inonation, the right information was put out there because they know, you know, and I'm still going to assume Mrs.

Guthri is alive and uh and who's ever holding her is in, you know, constant contact with her. And uh I I should add here too, I'm glad that they spoke to her mother. Uh they spoke to their mother directly. You know, mom, if you can hear this, mom, we want you to know we're thinking of you every day. We're praying for you. And uh so that's important, too. So

why why are you glad? Well, uh first of all, if if they allow Mrs. Guthrie to hear or see this, uh that's uh that will be important to her. would give her something to keep on uh keep pushing. And let me then just go right off from that to I'm also glad they said they're willing to talk, but they need some sort of proof. And they even threw out there essentially with AI whose ways of manipulating uh these type of pictures. So, we want something to know our our mother, our mama, you know, different terms is still alive. So, they really covered a lot in that I don't know three minutes or so. And uh and I think they got everything out there of importance. They were obviously guided well. It was clearly from the heart that they put those words together.

So, Jonathan, what did you make of it? Did you like There's a It set off quite a debate on whether they're in negotiations with someone already or they're begging to have a conversation with someone. Um, what what because they said, you know, we're ready to talk, we're ready to listen. And then there was that line about how well images and voices can be manipulated which kind of suggested that they'd already received one an image of their mom from this potential kidnapper. I don't What was your take on all that?

Well, you know, it it's interesting because being on this side of law enforcement now out and looking in as you know and and James would know, we're we're trying to investigate what the police are actually doing. We're not just looking at this and analyzing the crime. We're trying to analyze exactly what is being done and that's a difficult thing. But what I try to do is I look I take all the possibilities I put them on a whiteboard and then I start looking in particular at certain aspects of it and I I try not to narrow it down to one specific thing.

But I think in this case what what we can gleam from this is that first they're taking that uh the possibility that these ransom letters and that uh this communication is real. So they're taking that uh seriously and there there's I think if this was a complete ruse uh they might be able to track this pretty quick or they would get a sense of whether or not it was real or not. But they're taking it seriously and that's good. seriously enough where they make a video with the family and put it out. So that leads me to believe that that there's a potential that this is actually something that has validity.

Um, so then I start looking at statistics of how these things typically work out and who is normally involved and we we don't see a lot of these high-profile uh uh ransoms and kidnappings anymore. Uh that just doesn't happen that often. I think it has a lot to do with cameras and has a lot to do with uh the way that things occur inside the United States. We see these all the time in Mexico. So that's another point of this is that they are right next to the border. They're very close to the border. So if there is any potential that someone along the way identified her for some reason, I don't think if somebody across the border uh was just wandering around in these uh these different communities and and picked one person uh at random to take them back over the border. It would be somebody that had to have met her, had an encounter with her, or studied for whatever reason who she is to go after her because she has or is

connected to somebody that has money. So, these are things that I'm starting to look at. And the potential for a an abduction and a ransom is is higher now than it was before the video. So, I can't look at the video and say that uh it's real, but I can say that that the the deduction is real. But I can look at it and say the potential there because of this video and the way that the uh law enforcement is acting is it it's leading some credibility to that.

Jim, let me play you a sound bite from Savannah's sister Annie. She spoke a little in the video, not as much as Savannah, but th there was this this line kind of jumped out at me as odd. And I to your point about the brother wearing the baseball cap and are there other clues in here? Like are is it possible they're saying things that they've been asked to say? Just tell me what you think of this. Um it's sought too.

The light is missing from our lives. Nancy is our mother. We are her children. She is our beacon. She holds fast to joy in all of life's circumstances. She chooses joy day after day. Despite having already passed through great trials of pain and grief, we are always going to be merely human. Just normal human people who need our mom. Mama. Mama, if you're listening, we need you to come home. We miss you. Okay. So, that the parts all of that sounded just like strange language to me to be honest. It it sounded just like not the way you're used to hearing people talk and and in particular where she said we are always going to be merely human just normal human people who need our mom. So, am I reading too much into this Jim? Well, as a linguist, forensic linguist who compares language all the time from the manifesto to Ted Kazinski and, you know, a thousand other cases after that, uh, context is

important. How does Annie normally speak or write? Now, of course, it wouldn't be as contrite and as and as serious as we have in this particular message right now, but does she tend to maybe wax poetic sometimes in in certain conversations? I guess she's a poet.

Well, okay, there you go. So, that helps. And and again, if this is from the heart, I genuinely support what she's saying. I I can't imagine, again, there's a lot of supposition here. If there are kidnappers, number one, if they've already reached out, number two, uh if one of these letters is how they reached out that we know about as opposed to a communication we don't know about, number three. So, uh, are there some instructions in there, including what are they wearing and how are they sitting and in the order in which you sit will tell us you mean this or it'll mean Friday instead of Saturday. It'll mean noon instead of midnight. Uh, I'm just throwing out there other cases of which I am familiar over the years in which clues were asked like that. The old days, you put a response in the classified ads of a newspaper. You're probably not going to see that today, but it could be something on Craigslist

or something like that where they have to put a response in there. And then this was the complimentary uh uh advisement to it. But all that aside, kidnap or not, if someone is holding her

for some other reason, and we we don't know what that would be. We talked about revenge motives. Our first day together, Megan, uh uh you know, they'd still want to humanize her, as I said. So, uh, the sister Annie was was very gracious and very loquacious in how she was pronouncing and and saying what she said clearly from the heart. And I don't think anyone in the BAU behavioral analysis would have any problem with th with those putting those words together. In that regard, it seems trying to indict her. I'm I'm more interested in whether she's sending like a code because just the way she talks is, you know, like maybe she's responding to a kidnapper's demand like say it this way or I don't know. I have no idea. It's just she the way she phrases things sounds odd to me, but it could be the poet thing. Jonathan, let me ask you about the police activity back at the house yesterday because that

that took us all by surprise. They they released the house to the family, the police did on Tuesday. Then here we are on Wednesday and the and they're they're putting the crime scene tape back up around it. They searched the outside uh in the the neighborhood like right down the road from where uh this house is. And then they did search Nancy Guthri's house again for another two hours in the garage backyard a little and inside the house for the most part.

You know, there's been this increasing rush by law enforcement to open up these uh scenes in recent years. I I don't understand why that's the case. If you don't know that where the person is, um it could be an abduction or something could have happened. They could have stashed her on the property. Um I don't understand why they do these things. I mean, there's still blood on the ground when Brian was up there and uh and the scene was wide open. So, I I'm not real sure. I look at perhaps they got more information about something and they so they decided to uh to lock it down for a few more minutes and and then they opened it back up. So, I don't know.

These are law enforcement tactics that are were not taught to me and I don't understand from an evidence response uh team going in what type of reasoning they have for shutting down the sheriff.

Yeah. So what what you're saying Jonathan is like if you were controlling this crime scene, you would have said no one's going back into that house until we have Nancy Guthrie or at least until we're much further down on the investigation than we are.

Right. because once they have these letters and they start going down this other path of potential abduction, there may be other clues inside that house that they can gather. And so I just would have I would have held on to that for a little bit longer if I but this sheriff has made a couple of of mistakes. I'm not putting him down, but you know, he said that it was absolutely not an abduction from across the border. Well, he doesn't know that. So you you can't in law enforcement, you can't get ahead of the narrative because the the public the general public's a force multiplier that should be used. And in this case, when they make comments like that, they lose that forward momentum of potential eyes out there looking for things and saying, "Hey, this is this is interesting. I might know this." One other thing about uh Miss Guthrie is that I'd like to know if she took any trips recently. Did she go into Mexico?

Did she go overseas anywhere where somebody could have befriended her? has she met anybody in recent years uh that uh or recent uh months even that um anybody knows about that she talked about meeting somebody? And lastly, is there anybody in that family? I'm still, you know, as a as a hard investigator, uh I don't play the sympathy card. I look at this and I I still look at people sitting next to her uh on the couch. I'm not saying these people, but as an investigator, I'm looking at everyone. And so

you have to the lingo that you're talking about where was it was it uh told to her to say it that way? Is she a poet? From a law enforcement standpoint, I'm going to be looking at that and if if she starts going into poetry, I'm going to start asking the question of why are we having to make this so flowery at this point. This is a a crisis situation. So, as an investigator, uh, I'm going to look at every single person that is anywhere around her, uh, and any signs of oddity from normal behavior, uh, that lead me to, uh, any type of clue that I could that I can find.

Yeah, you get paid in law enforcement to be suspicious of everyone. So that's I mean literally your job Jim on that front. Of course we had Ashley Banfield's reporting not matched by anybody since that one senior law enforcement source who she said is impeccable told her that Annie's husband Tomas may be the prime suspect. The sheriff came out very quickly and dumped all over that report saying it's irresponsible. We do not have a suspect. We do not have a person of interest. for whatever it's worth, he would say that almost certainly, even if her reporting were true. So, we just don't know. But they did change the reporting yesterday per the sheriff on who was the last to see Nancy Guthrie. He had originally said that her kids dropped her off back at her house on Saturday night at 9:45 after a church event. and he made a point of telling the New York Times and then everybody else ran with it that

actually it was Tomas, the husband of Annie Guthrie who dropped her off, which was a change. Seems to me it may have been pointed though with the sheriff. Do we really ever know?

Can we back up a little bit, Megan, and I I'll respond to that. But yesterday, as we ended my appearance on your show, one of the last things we discussed was they better go back. They better make sure they search the house completely, including all the property. We referred to the John Bené Ramsey case where the little girl was down in the basement and Megan about two to three hours later, they're researching the whole property with the crime tapes. Whe they listen to your podcast or not, who knows? But uh it's it's very possible that they just said, "Hey, we had to make sure that Mrs. Guthrie is nowhere there, the uh on the property itself." Uh and it could be for other reasons. And also it's interesting with the sister uh Annie and Savannah sort of the abstract versus the pragmatic with the brothers just chipping in a few words at the end there in terms of the poetry part to the more

more specific uh with uh with Savannah. Uh as far as the wording. Yeah. Now that's very interesting that uh Tomaso is the one now confirmed to have dropped off Mrs. Guthrie at the house that night. I I think we're under the impression that it was the daughter Annie who dropped off the mother. Now it's the son-in-law.

Yes. Now again, uh that doesn't put him in the suspect pool. Lots of husbands drop off their mothers-in-law, uh you know, after different functions or events. Uh but

he had reportedly taken her out for dinner. Annie and he had taken her out for dinner,

which of course happens all the time all around the world. Uh and and that's the person. It's interesting though that the sheriff felt it was important to uh you know add that information to the public and and let everyone know about that. What exactly? I heard a big debate yesterday that it's it's they knew the family someone dropped him off and the family told us they dropped them off and the semantic you know content uh and implications of that only because it's the sheriff who I I have no problem with the sheriff who apparently has 50 years in law enforcement but maybe behind the mic is not his strongest suit in a high-profile case like that like this we saw that quite frankly in Brown University bunch of PhD people also didn't do a very good job uh on on the dis the investigators were doing good work. Very true

with those folks. So it gets tricky sometimes and it's one thing putting a statement out.

In the case of Saturday night, you know, they did report earlier that the pacemaker stopped communicating with her Apple Watch at 200 a.m. which really would seem to put the time of abduction or removal of Nancy Guthrie from that home at 2, not at 9:45. So, it's interesting, and it is important who dropped her off, but it really does appear this crime happened at 2 a.m. And we actually went back and asked a couple of different cardiologists what would happen with the pacemaker. Would it still be communicating with any sort of a central database that her cardiologist could be seeing right now and telling the family she's still alive or not? And the answer is no.

um that normally it communicates with a device like an iPhone or an Apple Watch and that if the person with with the pacemaker is removed out of range from that device then the communication will stop and it doesn't mean the person has died. It means you're out of range. So unfortunately we don't think there's some secret option for them to keep tabs on whether NY's alive or not thanks to that pacemaker. It was just a point that had been bothering me all along and now I think we we've gotten to the bottom of it. Go ahead, Jim. You were going to say something.

No, just adding that those type of connections that interconnectivity with Apple watches and pacemakers can tell a lot. Uh sometimes after a person is recovered, we'll just leave it at that. Uh but in this case, I'm not sure it has the value for the ongoing investigation as you just stated. You know, Megan, one thing one thing real quick is that I think law enforcement needs to start doing this. If we because they this is not a st a typical practice is if we know that she was that that pacemaker uh went off at 2:00 a.m. They need to look at the distance somebody could have traveled from 2:00 a.m. to the time that she was reported missing. And they need to to alert law enforcement in that circle so that they can start searching from that point in because those are finite distances that we know. Instead, everybody rushes to the scene and they search out. If we change these tactics a little bit, I think we might be uh

running into uh people who were doing nefarious things or finding bodies if they've been dumped a little bit easier.

That's a very good point. Um and we we hope that they've done that, though we really we don't know.

It's not typical in law enforcement. There was a different there was a different take on the the the messaging last night from uh Andy McCabe formerly of the he was for FBI deputy director. Um listen to what he told CNN last night. Sven

I feel like this is a fairly strong signal that they do not believe they've had a legitimate ransom demand yet.

Right? Because what you hear the family saying here is we're ready to talk. Reach out to us. We just want to know you have our mother. So, um, that's not something that you would do if you were already in negotiations with someone that you actually thought had the victim.

So, there is McCabe saying he thinks that that those initial ransom notes may be nonsense and that this was just a raw plea for whoever the kidnapper is to communicate with them. I thought that was an interesting take. It could be the case. I mean, I'm sorry to say it, but it could also very much be the case that somebody killed Nancy Guthrie in the home and removed the body. Again, we talked about that yesterday. Jim Jonathan, what do you think of that theory?

Yeah, I Well, first of all, I don't Andy McCabe is totally opposite of what I'm feeling, but you know, as investigator, I would still listen to what he has to say, but uh I I think that if that video is out there, it's probably they're looking at that pretty seriously. Uh but yeah, the a lot of these people uh that uh attack will remove the body, especially if it's a family member, or they'll try to dispose of it and and get rid of it in some way, shape, or form uh so that uh they can destroy any evidence of them being there. And in the case of a lot of these kidnappings, especially the ones that you see in modern time, like down in Mexico for instance, um those people are killed very quickly.

And then but the ransom procedure continues on and that's what we typically find nowadays.

Exactly. So that could be unfortunately one of the things that law enforcement has to consider. We should know more in just a short time. We will have a full report on what they say at this press conference. Gentlemen, thank you both so much. We appreciate it.

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Um, there have been several uh new items released by the police and the FBI there that were not out in the public before. Okay, I'm just going to give you a couple off the top of my head and then we're going to go through them and the sound bites with our panel in one second. Um, he's ch he's offered more details on the timeline. Okay, so for the first time, we heard that the doorbell camera disconnected at 1:47 a.m. We knew that Nancy was dropped back back off at her home around 9:45 p.m. on Saturday night. Now they have it down to 9:48 to 9:50 because they saw that the garage door, there's a timer on it, I guess, was opened at 9:48 and it was closed at 9:50. Um, so that we believe is when she got back home. Then he told us for the first time at 1:47 a.m. the doorbell camera disconnected.

Boom. That's the beginning of the crime. That's obviously what he's trying to tell us. By uh 1212 a.m. the doorbell software, though they have no video, he now confirmed. But the software did detect a person on camera. They have a written notification from we were told that it was a Nest camera by Ashley Banfield. uh that it was a written notification person on camera or person at the door and you'll get that if you have a Ring camera or Nest Cam and um they don't have video of it because it looks like Nancy Guthrie did not have a subscription to the Nest camera which is by Google and in order to get video of any particular moment you have to have a subscription unfortunately she didn't and so all we have now according to the sheriff is a written record that there was a person at the 4 at 12:12 a.m.

detects person on camera. Now, he did say could have been an animal. You know, he's not giving complete credibility to the eye of the Nest camera, but we are getting a timeline here. 1:47 a.m. Doorbell camera disconnects and then 1312 uh let's see 20. Yeah. So, 25 minutes later, um right 13 + 12. Yeah. is 25 minutes later, the software detected a person on camera. So, it's interesting to one to ask yourself what was going on in that time. It was 2:28 a.m. that her pacemaker app showed a disconnection. She got far enough away from it that it stopped communicating with her Apple phone, which was left inside the house.

So by 12:28 a.m., we're guessing she was out of the house. Uh, all right. So that's about a 45minute period, 43 minute period entirely that this whole thing went down. Um, and the the the sheriff walked us all through it. He also appeared to confirm that they did tow Annie Guthri's car. He wasn't as clear as we would like. He he got very sort of jumbly with his words and seemed to just be saying, "Oh, it's just a matter of course. Yeah, we took a car." Well, the only car we know of is Annie Guthri's, at least we think we know of, per the Ashley Banfield reporting yesterday that her source was saying police had towed and impounded Annie's car. He was asked about it. He fudged the answer a little bit. We'll get into it, but that was an interesting thing. Um, he said that they have no one of interest and they do not have he said, "We have no one you would consider a prime suspect. We're just not

there." But he's now shifting his on thereord statements about that that involved Annie Guthri's husband, Tomas. And I don't know why he's doing that. Um, he went on the record with the New York Times yesterday saying it wasn't Annie Guthrie who dropped her mother back off, which they'd originally reported. It was it was Tomas. So, he made that change himself with the New York Times, picked up everywhere, Fox and Hollywood Reporter, you name it. Now today he was asked about it and he wiggled again. Today he shifted to well let's just say it was family. Well why are we just saying it was who was it? Why would you be shifting it and making a point of that? So there's all sorts of interesting things. And then the FBI agent got out there and while they'd been so careful about not not disclosing any information about the ransom note. I think we now know virtually everything.

We know that it set a deadline of 5:00 p.m. today uh by which to send the Bitcoin. We know that um it named two things. We heard TMZ earlier today say there were things in there that turned out to be true that the writer of the ransom note referenced and we believe they were actual true references to the crime scene and therefore we TMZ are taking it cred seriously and we believe that law enforcement is well the FBI agent got up there and told us what they were. Um so we'll play that for you in just a second. Um anyway, we learned a lot. We're going to go through it uh with Jonathan Gilliam. He's formerly of the FBI himself. Also joining me is Chad Ays. He's former SWAT team leader and Jim Fitzgerald is back with me now.

Former FBI himself and uh profiler. Guys, thank you for being here. All right, let's just go down the line on what you thought was most interesting that presser. Chad, let me start with you because we haven't heard from you yet today. Uh what was your biggest takeaway?

Honestly, it's that 5:00 p. p.m. deadline um that that we saw and and Megan, I don't know if you picked up on it. It's almost like the agent went to the the the rack back there and it's almost like that rack had a copy of that ransom note in his because they kept going back and looking at it. So whether those are just notes that he's made or did he actually have the ransom note on his person um you know obviously or a copy of it, who knows? But the the whole idea um that is so confusing to me is why and and again that the other panelists hopefully can you know give their expertise but why the wishy-washiness back and forth. That's that's the frustrating part. Listen, I get it. We live in a time where where viewers, the American people are are heavily invested in this case. It almost takes me back to the Coberger case and the frustrations that the American people had and the you know viewers had

of what's going on? Why are we not getting the answers that we want? But there was we do know that Idaho and that agency had a lot going on behind the scenes. So could that be happening? Yes. But I don't know. I I feel like from from the press or now, sure, we did get a a great deal of information on that timeline, but you know, is there more to it and and they are just for the integrity of the investigation keeping that tight lipped? I don't know.

The Now we're on the subject of the of what was in the ransom note. Let me play for you in part that soundbite. Here's the FBI special agent in charge speaking to what appears to have been in there that may have lended credibility to it or maybe not. S 103.

Why this one? Because this was the ransom that came in and it had facts associated with a deadline with an a monetary value they were asking for. So at that point,

what were some of those facts if you can because there's been a lot of speculation as you know if you could set the record straight. Yeah, the ransom itself, one talked about an Apple Watch and one talked about a flood light. We're not going to go into specifics. It's very important that um we keep this investigation uh moving forward and we don't want to put more facts out there that others then can use to try to profit from this. One talked about a an Apple Watch, one talked about a flood light, but he also said later, Jonathan, that because one of the reporters, I think it was Brian Enton, who was on this show, we were just talking about this issue, raised the issue of, well, when do we think the ransom note was written because we all heard that there was an Apple Watch at this scene very early on in this case, and the agent acknowledged that and even acknowledged whatever's in there about a

flood light. he said could have been seen from the road. So what may have sounded out started out sounding very credible may not be at all. Anyway, what was your biggest takeaway today?

Well, that's right and that was the questions that I was having. Were were those things said? Were they released uh in a press conference? Um and uh and so it kind of degrades the reliability of that information. I was wondering if she had an eyewatch. A lot of people have an iPhone, have an eyewatch, and uh could be synced. Both of those things could be synced to a pacemaker. But I I did take some notes, Megan, if I can go through those real quick about things that I found that were very interesting and very telling. One is that the FBI did not rule out Bitcoin, right? So, they didn't say that Bitcoin was not an issue. So, if that's the case, I'd like to know if any of the relatives have any issue with Bitcoin where they're invested heavily in Bitcoin or they are experts. There's a lot of people that consider themselves experts in Bitcoin.

Um, I'd also like to know at 147 it says the camera went offline, but then it says at 212 the software detected a person on camera. So, I'm not I'm kind of confused on that. Were there two cameras? Because we've been told there were two cameras. What camera did they see uh somebody on online? Did the software detect somebody? uh because the camera going offline perhaps if there was no movement around that area that the camera went offline um and then when somebody moved in front of it it came back online. They're not clear about that. So I would like some clarification.

That's a good point. The re That's a very good point. I hadn't put that together. If the if the doorbell camera was disconnected at 147 a.m. then how was the software detecting a person on camera at 2:12?

Right. So this that to me is I would like to know it because if somebody saw somebody coming from the front or if they were coming from the back. If they came from the back for instance that tells me they're sneaking in. If they came from the front they could still be sneaking in. But it might be the fact that they just walked in the front. So that's see these are details that I really want to know in these press conferences that I don't think go above and beyond giving away uh secrets or or information. Um there's a couple other things. Um the um I want to know what family member checked on her so we know who dropped her off now. Who made the call? Because we've we've seen

on Sunday morning on Sunday morning because we've seen in the past where I don't know if you know this statistic, but 20 of the pe 20% of the people who call in and report a murder are the people who who actually did the murder.

So I what? Yes. And so I would like to know who uh called in because it's often that it could be the person uh that uh had something to do with this because as you said earlier in the show, she doesn't attend church. She attends church virtually. So this whole

we think that's that's based on one report from the Daily Mails, not not yet totally confirmed by all of us.

So where did the concern come from? Did somebody call her earlier? Had they not heard from her? And so where did this this come up? That that was another thing. Um

I would like to know if anybody in the family is under a financial burden. Um I'd like to know uh who benefits from her if she dies. Of course, these are things that are common questions.

Uh and was there any landscaping going on in and around that house? That's how Elizabeth Smart got uh targeted was an individual was doing the landscaping and then came in through a window that was left open. Um, there was no robbery that we know of. So, that tells me that this was either a personal issue with getting rid of her for a benefit or because of anger or it was for a kidnapping and a ransom. But the ransom thing is it just doesn't happen that often anymore. So, um, that would be that's a whole another game to kidnap somebody for a ransom.

That is a huge game and that is something that gets very technical very quick and you have to be a very smart criminal to carry that out. But what we typically see is that people who commit a crime such as a killing or a a a kidnapping or a robbery um will use a ruse uh such as um some type of a uh a ransom. And so that's why I want to know who in that family or who that they know may know about Bitcoin because either they're the ones going to benefit from it or they're the ones using it for a ruse. So these are questions that I had that came through all this stuff.

TMZ did verify that the Bitcoin account that was mentioned in the ransom notes is a legit account, but they're so hard to trace. You were going to say something Chad.

Yeah. Did now was I under the impression that she was and do we know the distance between their residence and and where she went to to her daughter's residence cuz it was

10 minutes according to Brian Enton. Okay. And didn't they mention that there was an Uber driver took her there,

but then an Uber driver took her to the daughter's and son-in-law's house for the for dinner and then we were told by this sheriff in the New York Times yesterday the son-in-law brought her home. And now today he wouldn't go that far. Today he was specifically asked who who brought her home and he wouldn't say it. I It's I don't know why. We'll we'll play it in a second. We're still getting all of our sound bites uh together. He also was asked, as I mentioned, are you specifically looking into the son-in-law? And here's what he said. S 107.

Are you actively investigating the the son-in-law in this case? Are there reports earlier this week and you refuted that? You said you haven't eliminated everybody.

Have you eliminated him or come close to it or are you actively looking at him?

We're actively looking at everybody we come across in this case. Everybody. Uh it it it it we would be irresponsible if we didn't talk to everybody. The the Uber driver, the the the gardener, the pool person, whoever.

Okay. So, he didn't I'm going to bring Jim in in a second, but Chad, he did not he didn't rule him out. He said, "We're talking to everybody."

Yeah. But Megan, what did you make of that? Well, here's here's the thing. He's also said, "We believe." either him or the FBI agent says, "We believe she's still alive." And if he is our prime suspect and he's not acting alone, if we believe he's still she's still alive, well, where is she and who who's got custody of her? You know, that's that if that's the case and you and you're and you're telling the American people, we believe she is still alive, but we know where the son-in-law is. Well, what then they're they're not acting alone, Megan.

Well, I mean, I see what you're saying. If she's Well, I mean, he could have like a worst case scenario, if if it's somebody close to the family or in the family, they could have hidden her someplace.

Sure. And be keeping her in some sort of a, you know, prison, a makeshift prison, which would free him up. But the cops are all over him right now. There's no You're right. I mean, like, if he did this, they're all over him. The the media is all over him. There's no like going and checking on your kidnapped charge. If if he's taking care of her at all in order to get proof of life, this is just a completely imagined scenario. He would need he would need some help. Here is um here is a question to the sheriff about proof of life and whether NY's alive. Here's S 102.

Sheriff over here. Has there been any proof of life and has there been any sign of life? I I I'm going to anything to deal with the ransom notes and that I would defer to the FBI, but no, to my knowledge, we're still looking for Nancy.

Okay. So, Jim, your thoughts on what we witnessed today? Yeah. Uh, not only the profiler, but the forensic linguist and me would really like to see that letter. I think there may be so many clues in that. I don't know if it's five sentences or or 15 or more. Uh there's definitely some information in there that I think someone who knows language could determine a lot from it. I also find it odd that uh there are two deadlines listed like five o'clock today, but then we really mean it by Monday afternoon.

Usually kidnap ransom. Again, there aren't that many of these that are legitimate. They are very demonstrative and deliberate and here's our demands. You will not violate it. There can be, you know, give and take room to go back and forth, the amount, the time frame, whatever. But usually they want to set up, they're in control. Here's exactly what we want and when we want it. Um, interestingly, Megan, uh, about 20 years ago, still in the FBI, I developed an acronym called POMIC. Uh, and it's it stands for a lot of syllables here. Post offense manipulation of investigation communication. You can see why I made it an acronym. And what that basically is, when a crime is committed, uh, to cover it up, to make it stage look like it's going somewhere else, people will write a letter, send it to the police, uh, lawyers, the media, uh, leave it somewhere to be found, and that is designed to misdirect the investigation.

So, I'm not ruling out that this is a legitimate kidnapping, ransom communication. It may be, but it also could be either a BS, someone playing games with it, uh, just for fun, kicks and giggles, or, uh, or or somebody else who was involved in the abduction. And and and Megan, the first couple minutes we spoke, we we we delineated this abduction was for one of two reasons, for profit or for revenge. And if it is a revenge thing and they decide, hey, people are getting close. Let me put this bogus thing out to TMZ and some other news station and make it look like it's a real uh kidnapping when it may not be. But nonetheless, having said that, the FBI has to follow through and and and go every uh method they can to determine the providence of that communication and who wrote it. Mhm. So there there was an interesting comment by TMZ where they said they basically said that the letter told us we don't

want to talk just give us our money. Listen here. This is today from TMZ S 116.

So the final thing about the letter and again we're not going to get into all the details. Um but when the family is reaching out to say we're ready to talk um this letter suggests uh no talk um that

that was made clear right at the beginning. Yeah. And so I I think that the family sitting down and speaking that way that um they are trying to change the minds of the abductors um and hoping that they actually will one provide that that proof of life. Um but also clearly there was an attempt to humanize not just Nancy but also themselves to say look we desperately want our mother back.

All right. So hold on to that in your head and listen to that 108 from the FBI.

Does the ransom note that you're working to establish any communication protocols in it?

Uh no it does not. And that is what I think is important that if someone has Nancy and is demanding the ransom that there is communication with the family. Um we talked about there is has been no proof of life. Um, and there was no other demands within that letter. So, um, they're still waiting for communication.

So, there it is, Jim. There the if this is the actual hostage taker, if if she's being held hostage and the ransom note is from her kidnapper, that person doesn't want to talk. He just wants his Bitcoin.

But I'll play both sides of the coin here, uh, Megan. If it's also someone covering up their revenge abduction of this person, they don't want to talk either because uh it's a better way to identify them and pick up some kind of a motive. So very convenient to put in the letter the communication. I don't want to talk. Again, they can argue in both directions or neither direction. Uh but nonetheless, that's not uncommon uh for people to write. Again, these letters are very rare. These communications kidnap the Lindberg kidnapping had about a half a dozen different communications.

But again, there was no social media back then. even phone telephones were an early days. So now it's a little bit different and uh we'll we'll see if some other communication comes in. If they want the money, they put a lot of effort into this case. This is a high-risk crime. If they want the money, they're not going to harm Mrs. Guthrie and they're going to somehow further communicate with the family. Otherwise, this is all for not all risk with no gain if in fact uh they don't get the money out of this. So they may want to consider talking to uh to the family.

Did you I know you got to leave shortly. Jim, do do you did you take anything away from that presser like they they've got a suspect or a person of interest and they're just not telling us or they're further much further along in this investigation and they're just not telling us.

Well, uh and I'll speak for Chad here. We know there's stuff they're not telling us. Uh no ends if or buts and I don't blame them for that. I respect them for that. Uh, and and we're just we're just working off the the the the crumbs that they're putting out there and what we know from our own experience. Um, I think we can say this pretty uh definitively at this point, Megan, and I may just leave you with this. Um, whoever took Mrs. Guthrie was inside that home or is associated with someone very close to that home who was inside that home. That's why they knew uh uh there was no subscription service on their on their camera system. uh smashing it is one thing that keeps any subsequent uh images coming up perhaps, but uh and maybe just done out of habit, but if they knew there was no subscription service, just walking up to the door, even with a mask on, whatever, it could be risky in that regard. So, I

I think this all goes back to they have the police have a list of all the people, some one of the one of those people or one of those people's associates were somehow involved in this crime. Easier said than done. the proverbial needle in a hay stack. U and you need probable cause to take things to a next step, search warrants and all, but uh they they probably have a pretty viable suspect pool. It's just narrowing it all down. Maybe crossing uh country lines, international lines with Mexico, which makes it of course more difficult in that regard. But uh whether it's a real abduction or it is a real abduction, whether it's for profit or for some kind of revenge motive, uh someone knows uh who did this or at least knows uh or that person who was in the house knows someone who did this and that's where the police have to really focus and it could be hundreds of people.

My goodness, Jim Fitzgerald, thank you. We'll talk to you tomorrow, I'm sure. We appreciate it.

You're welcome. Um Chad, the other the other I mean we you know Jim is saying if somebody kidnapped her it's for hostage it's it's for money or it's for revenge like they hated Savannah and wanted to punish her or they hated Annie or Cameron the brother's sister or they hated Nancy Guthrie for some reason right like the other possibility is that they killed Nancy Guthrie and then they just decided to get rid of the body like they just thought it would be easier to not have a body to just let people wonder, you know, maybe there was a panic thing like, "Oh my god, I got got to get rid of the evidence." You know, maybe the person left DNA on NY's body like with a strangulation or something like possible touch DNA. I'm just thinking about the possible scenarios and then felt, oh my god, I've got to get rid of the evidence here and then just allowed it to play out as a kidnapping and possibly was behind that

ransom note and or possibly wasn't. There could definitely be people taking advantage of this situation. See if they can't get Savannah Guthrie to wire them a few million bucks in Bitcoin.

There's nothing clear about this. And you know, I've the law enforcement community, even here in the upstate of South Carolina, you know, we we've talked about this. We've got group chats going on of everyone's opinion and everyone is under the same impression. We just don't know. Anything could be out there. But Megan, listen, I what I appreciate about you, you you're one that always shoots people straight. You don't hold back. And I think honestly, I mean, it's really hard for me coming from a law enforcement background and someone who has worked homicides who is part of two high-risk hostage rescues, hostage situation, or I'm sorry, kidnappings. Um, like Jim said, they're far few between. This isn't Hollywood.

We don't get these types of calls and and we don't get these types of cases all the time. Very rarely do this happen in the country. Um, I think if I'm being real, I I don't think Nancy Guthrie is still alive.

I don't either. And it breaks and and to hear and and again, I I don't know about the brother. I think it's odd again back to the Uber there. Why did she just Uber back? You know, was he driving her, you know, back just to kind of case it one more time to see if there's any cars parked on the street? I don't know. These are all questions that I have. Um, but what I do know is you saw at least, and again, I I'm not a judgment. I'm not a behavioral analysis, but what we did see last night, Megan, was a broken family. All right. Whether or not the one sister was truly broken, we we we don't know. I don't I don't want to put words, but what we did see is this family that is just broken, and they want answers. And personally though, you know, my frustration, I am so glad that the sheriff has has and and that President Trump and Cash Patel are putting these resources there because personally, I

feel like that sheriff is in over his head just a little bit. Yeah. Yeah, Chad, I totally agree. I'm so sad to believe it, but I don't believe she's still with us. I just I I agree with everything you said. I I think that the kidnapping for ransom it sounds very Hollywood. It's I don't remember it happening anything close to this scale or anything uh in in my lifetime, you know. Um Elizabeth Smart was kidnapped and miraculously was found, but I mean you can name

far and few and kind of like yeah like the number of times that's happened. However, murders especially of family members again I I do not I'm not saying it's the brother-in-law. I don't know who it was, but could be an extended family, could be somebody else, could be could be a worker in the house. She pissed off or didn't pay on time or just crossed in the wrong way, even though she sounds like she was an absolutely lovely woman. Is ideally we're talking present tense. Um, murders happen all the time, unlike kidnappings for money. Well,

all the time. And that and and I can absolutely see how in today's day and age somebody would would then hide the body because like this person definitely didn't want to get caught. They they broke the ring cameras we think before the murder was committed, right? I mean I guess we don't know that for sure, right? Because what we do know on the timeline is 147 doorbell camera disconnects 212 software detects person on camera. So yeah, it's it is confusing. How could the how could the disconnection happen before? Maybe we have those two time are those two times juxtaposed or something?

Do I have my notes wrong? I I wrote it down from the screen. Yeah, I have it here too. 1:47 a.m. Doorbell cam disconnects. 212 software detects a person on camera. How is that possible? Well, in any event, the point is we we have every reason to believe that the crime happened right around 2 a.m. and that the person actively took steps to cover it up. So, it does make it seem like what whoever did it didn't just like panic like they they were like, I've got to do some things to sort of cover up my crime and make sure my story looks clean. So, one thing I do want to bring up that that I was talking to a crime scene investigator and they were analyzing the blood droplets that were seen on the front porch and this is what they said. They said um they sent a picture and they said, "Chad, listen, if anything else, um what I can see from this photo is the blood spatter tells me she was up and walking when it fell. It

hits at a 90 degree angle or close, which means the blood was falling straight down. Uh, which usually you see when someone has blood dripping off of them while they are walking.

Well, that's kind of encouraging, right? I mean, exactly. And listen, with the blood things, we also see elderly people, right? Their skin tears very easily. it's very, you know, easy for them to get a bump or bruise or or, you know, was there an actual struggle inside the house. Um, I don't know. But again, this is a crime scene person that that told me that. Um, so maybe she did walk out on her own. Look, Megan, you and I are both people of faith and and we are I'm not ceasing to stop praying until we come to a conclusion in this.

The um I want to play some of these other sound bites, okay? because there's other sort of like nuggets in here that are kind of interesting to me. We had Ashley report yesterday that her source told her the the nest she said they were Nest cameras and that they were both smashed. She said they were smashed and that then law enforcement we believe removed them. Um the sheriff seemed to deny that here in ST 101.

The doorbell camera um it it was removed. We know that. But we're not confirming that any cameras were smashed or destroyed around the house. I don't know where that came from, but that's something we're not confirming.

So, we're not confirming. Um, why wouldn't he confirm a smashed camera? I have absolutely no idea. That doesn't jeopardize the integrity of the investigation at all. Um, right. Unless, you know,

I mean, he's he's giving us the timeline earlier of doorbell camera disconnects. So, it's like, how did he did they have like a bomb technician in there cutting the red wire but not the green one? It's like obviously somebody did something to it. So, what's that about?

Yeah, that's what I can't figure out. I do find it interesting and and I like that either Jonathan or Jim mentioned was the fact that she didn't have a subscription, right? Very few people would know that. Only close personal and I don't even think workers because at first when I first started diving into this case, first thing that comes to mind is uh home health care workers um people that are in the house a lot of times that see maybe jewelry or anything around there. That's that comes to mind first. But with the subscription aspect, it it gives just another layer of um someone who probably knew. And again, but smashed versus unsmatched, I I have no idea.

Okay. And what about um let me play you the the soundbite about the car because we're back on Ashley's reporting where she said her law enforcement source told her that Annie Guthri's car had been towed and impounded. whatever that means, you know, just like kept at the lot, not returned to her. Brian Enon couldn't confirm that. He said he wasn't sure. Um, having like he could see one car at Annie Guthri's residence, but that didn't mean that the other car wasn't inside the garage. And the issue of a car being towed away did come up today, not as clearly as we would like, but here's how it went down.

The car uh the the the car that was at the home uh it's just standard investigative practices. It's part of the search warrant scene court orders. We we pull it out of there and do our pro scene processing with the vehicle. Okay. I don't do Deb, do we know what the question was leading into that? Because like that's Did somebody say did they tow the car? Yeah, that's right. That's right. My my producer Lawrence reminding me he he he just threw that out there, Chad. It wasn't in response to a question. It was like he was just clarifying a couple things and just says the car. Okay.

Whose car? Where? Well, let's think about what was the key piece of ev evidence in the Alec Murdoch case. The computer in the car,

right? So, if the family is saying, uh, we took her home at 9:48 p.m. I watched her walk inside at 9:50. she put the um uh door or garage door down. At that point, the vehicle, unless they're driving a 1950 vehicle, these these they're going to be able to pull the data. Did that car leave the house again later on in the evening. Um and a full processing of the vehicle as well. But I'm telling you, the day and age of driving your vehicle and committing a crime, that's over with. So, could that be it? Are they searching for DNA? But again, with the DNA aspect, I feel like with the FBI's crime lab, um, since they're already getting pieces of DNA back, if they're sending off samples or, you know, pulling up carpet or maps in the car, that should be back by now.

Yeah, they would they they would possibly know. And the other thing is in in defense of the brother-in-law, and I don't mean to dump on the brother-in-law because this is just one report unconfirmed. I keep Savannah's brother-in-law, NY's son-in-law. Um, but in in his defense, they almost certainly would have said to him on Sunday, maybe Monday at the latest, "Let me see your cell phone." Like, "Let me have it." And I'm sure he would have turned it over. Even if he had done something, it would have been so, you know, make whatever.

It would have made him look guilty to say no. It would have been so incriminating to say no. And so, by now, they would have run that whole thing. Your phone tell they they know when you put it down to go to sleep. They know when it was at rest. They know when it was upright like on you and you're walking around with it. They know everything. That Alex Murdoch case showed us that. Like they can they could tell when he they could tell how fast he was walking around his kitchen. Like if this guy got up in the middle of the night and went over to his mother-in-law's house, if he took his phone, and maybe he was smart enough not to do that. If this is if he was involved, they would know. Now, if he left his phone sitting on his bedside table and never touched it, it's more difficult. But if he took the family car over there, you're exactly right. It's like taking your phone with you because

that thing is recording a bunch of data, too. Yeah, 100%. So, again, there's there's no getting past that. Also, I'm sure when we talk about diving into forensic evidence, it does make it hard to believe. And and and personally, as an investigator, I would take that phone. I would dump it. I'm going to give that phone back and probably wait a few days and then I'm going to take that phone and ask and get a search warrant and ask for it again. What is this? You know, and again, I know we keep going back to the son-in-law just because that's, you know, seems to be a a person that's been mentioned several times. Um, what is that person looking at in the following days afterwards? What are they researching on Google then?

It's true. They do that all the time. They It's amazing. Like if you listen to Dline, uh you know that so often when a crime is committed, whoever is the perpetrator will go online on their phone thinking it's fine to Google, how do I cover up murder? You know, I mean, it's crazy what people will do, but you see it over and over.

Well, do we know who actually went into So, it says 11:56 family checks on Nancy. All right. Did they go

That's a new That's a new time, by the way. We were told before that the family got a call like around 11:10 and that they went right over to check her house for her. And the sheriff even said at his presser the other day, excuse me. Oh, you know, it took him a while. They didn't call us right away because they're looking for her. And I mean to me that made sense. You before you call the police, you're like you're checking everywhere. Like did she trip and fall in the backyard? Did she go for a walk or something? Like I would check everywhere before I involved police. But today it changed to 11:56 a.m. The family

I can't read my own uh writing checks. The family checks on Nancy. She's missing 11:56 a.m. And then he says at 12:03 p.m. So 7 minutes later they call the sheriff. That was a new revision of the timeline. Why?

Exactly. Because those all those calls are date stamped. they he knew the other day. Um that's a like you said, I agree that's a short time frame. I mean, we've got a large home. We've got a backyard. Wouldn't you assume if you come in now, the I guess Megan, the only caveat to this could be when they approached the front door and they saw the the blood droplets spatter. They realize, uh-oh, this isn't normal. So, now we're going to, you know, call. In a normal situation, you would think they'd walk over to the neighbors. Hey, did you see mom call EMS? Hey, did y'all happen to transport anyone? Call the local hospitals.

Okay, but let me just say something, Chad. Let me just say something about that. I'm ve again very open-minded to this is some guy from Mexico. It's a landscaper. I don't It's some rando. It's the guy who trespassed on the 90year-old's lawn a month earlier or sometime within the month of January. I have no idea. But I will say this in the other lane that it's possibly a family member. The original story was definitely that she didn't show up. that the family was told around 11:10 she didn't show up at church and that they spent about an hour looking for her and then called the cops. That's what the sheriff told us. But then what I've seen all over the internet over the past few days is people saying unlike me who I'm like I I would wait before I called the cops. All these other people saying who waits an hour to call the police over their missing elderly mother. And there have been a lot of people online who

found that very suspicious. So, I have to say, you know, I think it's just those two, Annie and Tomas, at this point. Savannah, I presume, was in New York. She was about to go to the Olympics this week. She had a big week in New York. There's I I haven't heard any reports that she was out there already visiting the mom. So, I think it's just Annie and the husband, Tomas, are the ones who come on scene and call the sheriff. Um, are they the ones who changed the timeline? Are they the ones who changed it from we looked for an hour to oh no no no it was 11:57 that we we got to the house and we saw she wasn't there and we called within 7 minutes. I don't know but nobody asked about that change in the timeline.

Yeah. You know and I think it's important too. Did did a um what's the what's the daughter's name? Uh Annie Annie and Tomas did did they have Ring doorbells as well? And do they have young children? Because if they have young children, you know who doesn't know how to lie very well? Young kids. Hey, the other day, did mom or dad leave at a certain time? You know, these are questions that I would want to ask. You know, whenever I would work, you know, roll up to a domestic kind of call, you separate parties. You know who I'd talk to before I talked to the husband or the wife? I'd talk to the kids because kids are usually good at telling the truth in situations like this.

That's so true. Well, and also their phones on Sunday. Now, if they're not if if he's not using his phone and she's not using her phone all Sunday, that's suspicious. I mean, everybody picks up their phone when they get up. You know, it's like sadly it's a it's an appendage now. So, I think those phones will show us. And maybe they've already looked at that and ruled them out. Although, he wouldn't say he'd ruled anybody out. He specifically said they had not ruled anybody out. But you would think that the phone movement on Sunday might show them exactly what the movements were and when this alleged call came in from the person at the church because now there's conflicting information on that. Um, this is another thing nobody asked about today at the presser. The original reporting was that she didn't show up at the church and a concerned churchgoer who knows she's always there called the

family and then the family went to the home at around 11:10. I think there's a um 10:45 mass um went to the home blah blah blah. But now the Daily Mail, it's just just one one source reporting based on one source of theirs. Okay, so one newspaper with one source says that Nancy Guthrie had not been going to church physically since COVID that she'd been live streaming it. um not even like zooming where the churchgoers can see you, but just live like watching the church's live stream on her like home TV or computer. And um that there'd be no way for anybody at the church to know she wasn't participating.

Now, Brian Anton raised a good point today when I discussed that with him, saying, "I just assumed whoever said that like she hasn't been coming since CO did not realize she'd probably moved churches, you know, and I do that. I go to more than one church depending on what my kids schedules are on Sunday and their sports and all that. But like that's another possibility we have to keep in mind. I can't go right to the nefarious place like somebody lied.

But it is an interesting possibility that she was not physically ever at church and nobody noticed that she wasn't at church. And if that's true, Chad, then we really do have some hard questions for Annie and Tomas. Like how did you know something was wrong on Sunday morning?

Exactly. So, what you know, what are y'all's routines on Sunday as a family? You live 10 minutes down the road. You know, do do you typically come over after church and have lunch like I did at my grandmother's house uh growing up? Um but again, if that is the case, 100% tough questions are going to have to be asked. Um, we're looking it up because we actually I had my team go back and check the actual church name that was if it was said by the sheriff initially that she was supposed to be at but didn't show up at on Sunday and and then I believe the Daily Mail mentioned the church that she had not gone to since COVID. So, we're going to do that comparison right now. Uh oh, Mike's just coming in. Hold on a second. Um, all reporting states that Nancy Guthrie attended St. Andrews Presbyterian. Okay.

So, it's right now it's not looking like it's a different church. Correct. The Daily Mail source is from that church and that's the church the sheriff mentioned that she always goes to. Now, just because one person told the Daily Mail Nancy Guthrie stopped going in person and that she was doing live streaming since CO doesn't mean it's true either. I mean, I will say like if my church is any if their church is anything like like mine, you do kind of know who who to expect. see the same faces and if you know them, you would notice if they weren't there. Our priest just the other weekend when we had that big snowstorm was like, "We all went to 5:30 mass the night before, 5:15 mass the night before and he was like, "Oh, I'm seeing all the people. You you guys are from the 9:30, you guys are from the 10:45." You know, like you do kind of know. And when it's an elderly woman,

sure, I think a lot of us keep tabs on them for their families, you know, like just obviously we we uh What' you say, Steve? Okay. Oh, really? Oh. Oh. Oh, that's interesting. My executive producer Steve Crackard just confirming in my ear that now Brian Enton of NewsNation is confirming the Daily Mail report that that Nancy Guthrie had not been attending in person since CO her church and that she was live streaming the church service. So, I mean, honestly, maybe there's some innocent explanation for this that we're not thinking of right now, but that to me is a huge red flag. Chad,

I I agree. I mean, are we was it someone that just misspoke um or someone trying to get their name out there, you know, to get involved in this case? I'm not sure. Um but but certainly, you know, that's going to be able to be deciphered pretty quickly um by law enforcement. I what I haven't seen a lot of

and the church I just I should point out the church is not commenting. The church has been contacted in a few of these reports that I've seen so far and they just keep saying we love Nancy and we're we're not not going to comment. So clearly they've been contacted by law enforcement and they are keeping their mouths shut which is proper but that's also interesting. Sorry, keep going. No, I you you know I as we expand and look at all possibilities here, you've mentioned it. You know, we're we're less than probably an hour from the from the border. We do know that the cartel dabbles uh and and does a lot of transactions via cryptocurrency, but I still go back to why why Nancy, why an an 84 year old woman um in this situation. Um, but I I do, you know, I will say this. I truly believe and we all agree there is more than they are sharing and I I appreciate that. I respect that. Um, but hopefully we get

some solid answers quick. Here's the sound bit I've been waiting for. Um, I mentioned it three times that they originally said that Annie dropped the mom off back at her house on Saturday night and then yesterday the sheriff made a point of telling the New York Times, I want to update my reporting it was actually Tomas and everybody ran with that because that was a material change, especially in the light of Ashley's reporting. It was like, okay, I'm hearing that name for the second time. Then today came up again and the sheriff wiggled on it very interestingly. It's S 112. You know, there's also conflicting reports about who was the last person to actually see Nancy and drive her home. We know we she took an Uber to Annie's house, but can you confirm whether it was Annie or her son-in-law, Tomaso, who took her home that night?

I think uh the the timeline that the sheriff provided was a family member, but just we're going to go with family.

What? We're going to go with Chad. That's very strange. I mean, he said it. He explicitly said it on camera. Uh, I'm going to quote you from the New York Times piece, the headline of which was, "Search for Nancy Guthrie, Savannah Guthri's mother, grows more urgent." And then he wrote, this is the quote. This is an a perfect quote. Miss Guthri's son-in-law, Tomaso Cion, dropped her off and ensured she made it inside safely before leaving. The sheriff added, he was on the record with the New York Times, and that was 100% different. They had said it was Annie earlier. um or in some cases they had said family, but here he's getting specific with the New York Times saying it was Tomas Oion, the son-in-law, and she he made he made sure that she made it inside, ensured she made it inside safely before leaving, the sheriff added. And so now, can we just play it one more time? Why is he doing that at 112? It's not 112.

You know, there's also conflicting reports about who was the last person to actually see Nancy and drive her home. We know she took an Uber to Annie's house, but can you confirm whether it was Annie or her son-in-law Tomas who took her home that night?

I think uh the the timeline that the sheriff provided was a family member, but just we're going to go with family.

I mean, the the use the words we're going to go with, Chad, are doing a lot of work there.

Well, what I want to go with is I want to know who was the last person to see Nancy Guthrie. This is this is criminal investigation 101. Start there. So, why is there so much BS and and changing of stories? Um, that's frustrating and and it's really hard for individuals like myself and, you know, the other guests to to kind of start piecing this thing together when every other presser were getting, you know, different intel or information coming in

diametrically opposed. She was grabbed from her bed. No, she wasn't grabbed from her bed. I like completely reversed himself on that. And there have been quite a few things that the sheriff has he acknowledged making mistakes. I I'll say something in Tomas's defense, though. Maybe the sheriff changed it back to family because he realized there's too much heat coming down on this guy. I don't think he's our guy. I I'm like trying with without ruling anybody out because I can't totally know that he didn't do it at this point. I'm trying to remove him from the front burner in a polite way, but he doesn't he underestimates the media's attention to detail.

Yeah, I I totally agree. It's do we know which which I haven't been able to research. What is what does Tomas or whatever his name is do for a living?

He is last we checked he was um a part-time teacher at in middle school a sixth and eighth grade part-time I believe and then his wife is a poet. They live in I think a $600,000 house that they either they got married in 2006 and or they purchased the house back then. But, you know, the mother's house is worth a million dollars now, but they've been living in it since 1992. By my math, Savannah's dad died in 1989 or 90. So, my guess is, you know, I don't think the mother has any sort of a an income. My guess is she used her husband's insurance money.

Sure. And uh she bought that house, which wasn't a million dollars back in 1991 or two, and she's been living in it ever since. And I'll bet you that the sister's house 10 minutes away wasn't $600,000 when she bought it either. Probably appreciated in value. But this is not a rich couple. And look, I can speak to this. Obviously, I I I'm making a healthy living in my line of work. But my sister, my my dear sister who died a couple of years ago, who is six years older than I am, um she didn't have money. She didn't have a professionally successful life. and I helped support her for all of her adulthood. And so I don't know whether they're in that situation. I I confess to you when I saw the sister I wondered because she she she looked I don't know. She looked they all look rough around the edges right now because they're grieving. But I just I wonder I don't think the sister is a woman of means.

And I just wonder what the real dynamic there is. Savannah is staying with her. We believe and Tomas. So, I mean, I you do have to say like if I were staying with my sister and I thought that her husband may have had something to do with kidnapping or worse with my mom, I'd think of a reason to go to the hotel. So, that's something in their favor, too. And the only reason that they're they're so under the scrutiny right now is that we got nobody else. I mean, we should spend some time on the the weird guy who crossed into the 90year-old's lawn in January because that is disturbing. Not a single person asked about that either today. But but there was a 90-year-old couple doors down from Nancy Guthrie who saw a trespasser come on his lawn and he turned on the flood light. Good for him.

And scared the guy off. He took off. And Tucson notwithstanding last yesterday when I talked to Ashley. She was like, "Oh, Tucson, they don't see a lot of murders. You should see my inbox." All my listeners and viewers in Tucson are like, "Is she kidding me?" Like I really I don't think I've ever been to Tucson, but they were basically like it's a hell hole. You should see the number of crimes we have.

Well, and and and again that takes you back to well what kind of life insurance policy did Nancy have, right? Because I if if that's going to take me back to the family versus a random type of attack, but and again, let's just stay with the family angle. If she does have a life insurance policy, is the ransom note with the Bitcoin just to throw off law enforcement? I don't know. But you're right. One thing we do know is diving in and getting information from these cryptocurrency places is extremely extremely difficult.

Forget it. We we did a whole week on people's fraud stories like people who had been defrauded or almost defrauded and we were on there. We did not get defrauded but they tried to defraud me and my husband and my husband's family. His his mom was the target. But in any event, they wanted Bitcoin from us, which was, you know, one of our first clues that we were like, uhoh.

Um, but that we did take a deep dive into the Bitcoin thing, and it's like you put money in there,

it's gone. You It is not traceable. Like the cops were like, "Never give money via Bitcoin. It's not traceable. You'll never get it back and you'll never figure out who you sent it to." I was like, "How how is this allowed?"

You're right. But what I do know is that in every crime, I would say, uh, the suspect is going to mess up. There's going to be something left. Whether, like we mentioned, touch DNA, you know, I don't care if you wear gloves and a Tyveck suit, something is was left. There is some type of DNA evidence somewhere in that residence. Look, we saw it from the Coleberger case um with the knife sheath and then using the genealogy testing. Look, I hope it's not the family. I truly do. Um, but again, we we no stone was going to go unturned. We heard the sheriff say that.

I am just glad that the FBI is there utilizing their resources. You know, we have the the ability to use cell phone triangularization to see what cell phones were in that area during that time frame. And again, that's not saying someone took a cell phone, but I will I will feel a lot better um once we get the data back from all families vehicles that live in the area. Cell phone, diving into those his um computer, his Chromebook at school. I want I want to dive into that. We we have to eliminate We have to eliminate them as a suspect to begin with. Once we do that, I feel like then we can dive into some deeper waters here.

I agree with that. I agree with that totally. And look, this is what I I'm I'm an addict to Dineine, which is an NBC crime show. And every single Dline will tell you the very first thing you have to do is rule out the immediate family. And I'm sure that's what the sheriff's working on. That's what we're discussing because there is a report by not some nutcase. Ashley Banfield is a very serious crime reporter. Um she I've been following her avidly for 20 years. She's she does not just throw things on the board. this serious understanding what you're potentially doing to this grieving family member if you're wrong without really trusting her source. And she not only did she say extremely auditory things about the source, I then asked her after the sheriff came out and clearly denied your reporting and called it irresponsible,

did you go back to your source? And she said, "Yep, I did." And he stood by his comments and said, "They're all clamming up." So that's where that is. Again, for what it's worth, nobody else has matched it. We don't know. That could be because it's wrong and it could be because they're all clamming up. We just don't know. Um just a couple of other items from the presser. They've offered a $50,000 reward. Now, that was interesting, Chad. Like, why now? It was $2500 bucks as of, you know, two days ago. Why are they what what's going on now? Now it's 50,000. I think they're just they are struggling to get solid evidence and solid intel on this thing and they are hoping Listen, $50,000 is a lot of money to a lot of people. Um it's a lot of money to me. Um and if someone is sitting because personally and I and I know everyone's got their opinion on this, I don't believe this was a oneman show acting completely on their own. I

just don't. Um, and I think that possibly, you know, loose lips sink ships and someone's probably, you know, my expertise also is on the active shooter side. We've talked about that in the past, but a large percent of people who commit acts either say something to someone they trust. Very few people can keep something in. And let me assure you, whoever this is, unless it is some cartel hitman, anybody that has somewhat of a soul, sooner or later finds a breaking point. And having to close your eyes every night and see in certain images comes, you know, it it eats away at you. And sooner or later, you feel like you just got to share in confidence to somebody. And maybe that's what the money is there for is just to try to incite someone to come forward with something more solid so they can, you know, have probable cause to make an arrest on someone.

Well, that's the other thing that we haven't discussed. I'm probably avoiding it for a reason. Um, I know for a fact Savannah's got some deranged people who follow her and who have been who have posed a threat to her in the security department. I'm not revealing anything I learned at NBC, by the way. This was given to me recently by a tipster. Um, and that's not unusual. I mean, that's you could probably say that for virtually any major figure on camera, on TV, or, you know, in the news. And so, like, there really is a chance that some nutcase obsessed with her, realizing they couldn't get to her, Chad, because you know, of course, Savannah's got

the proper security precautions in her life. She's got young children. decided to go after her mom. I mean, that that's got to be an angle that the FBI, I guess, I guess, would be pursuing that right now, looking into any threat she'd received. I know that there have been, you know, stalk stalkers and like incarcerations. So, all of that that's got to each one of those has got to be tracked down and followed up on,

I think. And there's there's there's ways and and programs out there. You know, I would dive into her social media. Who's been liking? You know, is there a repeated person that's liking a bunch of photos? Is there a bunch of people flooding her, you know, DMs, you know, those unread messages that go to those folders? But you're right, and that's the sick times that we live in. And and Megan, we were talking right after Charlie was killed. And you know, the the importance of executive protection and you know, that's what I do. And it it's the day and age where unfortunately people go to extremes and it's not just like movie stars and actors. People are so contentious on the political side of things. Um there's so many people that just hate Donald Trump so much and and and listen, I'm not telling you anything that you don't know and your team and and and other podcasters out here and and news

people. Unfortunately, people resort to violence um when they don't get their way and and that very well could be a reason. Um there is a report uh in the Daily Mail actually right now showing a segment that aired on the Today show in November, which really isn't that long ago, showing footage from uh Savannah returning to her hometown of Tucson and being with her mother Nancy. The Daily Mail is reporting that some at NBC are worried about this segment. Um, it was a homecoming special that they aired. I mean, I have to say that's the thing about like these morning shows and having been at the Today Show for a year. They really want you to put your personal life on the air. It they they press hard for you to like reveal very personal details about your your family, your kids, your marriage, your your mom, your all of that. There's zero doubt in my mind Savannah felt that, too. And here's a clip from what aired.

Mom, you guys came here in the 70s and you'd been moving all around. What made you want to stay in Tucson and Net Roots?

It's so wonderful. Just the air, the quality of life is laidback and gentle. I like to watch the Havalina eat my plants.

But the best thing about Tucson is coming home and seeing you guys. Should we raise a glass? Prickly Fair Margarita. Cheers. Cheers. Cheers.

Love you. Love you. Now, what they report in the Daily Mail is that there is, this is a quote, "There's a lot of soularching at NBC about whether their segment made Nancy a target." A Today's Show source told the Mail. The segment did not feature NY's home or disclose details about where she lived. But after this week's events, people around here at NBC, this is a quote, are going to think twice before putting their family on television at all. Man, that's a dark thought. and it and it's awful. But I think that's the important part. If individuals, you know, who are whether you're a high- netw worth family or you're a news personality or an actor, an actress, you know, when I meet with a new client, you know, with executive protection and and we have numerous clients that families that we protect and congressmen that we protect. It's so important. We are so addicted to this and our social media

that, you know, just just be just be aware. or you go on family vacation, talk to your children. Hey guys, don't be taking photos of of us out at dinner because all that can be I can put images in Google and find out where you are. You want to post that. We can post our family photos when we get back, but again, we want to make sure that you know the safety and security of our clients is our highest priority. And so basically putting out where your mother lives um that is a different angle that we need to look at.

I mean, you don't I like I just I I'm sure she wasn't thinking that way. I'm sure Sure.

You think that way about your children, right? But this is yet another another one of those firsts, Chad, where it's like I I'm sorry to raise it, but like the the murder of Charlie, it's like it was a first. It was like a a a pundit like a public figure talking head who who gets murdered in an outdoor amphitheater because he's just going out there to speak to people. Like it was a new in the way Coline introduced this horrible evil new way of ending people's lives into our national consciousness. Then the Charlie thing happened which I do think changes public speaking for most people forever.

And now this. No, I just think as a public figure, you're not thinking upward in terms of protection. You're thinking downward in the generations because you're, you know, you're thinking about your littles and like if somebody gets kidnapped, it's usually a toddler. You know, it's I don't remember an 84 year old ever getting kidnapped before.

No, but it you know this this and this case takes me back to several years ago here in Greenville, South Carolina. There was an elderly couple who was brutally murdered in their home. And I mean an elderly couple um and come to find out it was um a worker that had been working there and saw a large amount of jewelry, credit cards obviously got stolen. I mean, you're going to get caught there. Um but there's just unfortunately, Megan, there's too many potential subjects that could be involved in this and we just don't know right now.

Mhm. That I mean it is disturbing to think that it was just November that she broadcasts that her mother does live in Tucson and I haven't checked but like I'll bet it's fairly easy to find the mom's address. She lives alone. She's elderly and so if you wanted to back to Jim's theory of it's either for money if it's a kidnapping or it's for revenge. You wanted to hurt Savannah Guthrie for some reason. And like yet people have to understand you don't have to be controversial, you know? you don't have to be uh our pal Tucker, who's a lightning rod, um in order to invite this nonsense into your life. Like I I've told the story before, but my very first year at Fox News, I was a a baby in TV. I was a cub reporter. I developed a very serious stalker, a a previously convicted felon who he was convinced that we were in a love relationship.

They call it an erot maniac. I'd never met him. He I'd never seen him. He just saw me on TV. And his mind, which was adultled, convinced him that we were in love and we were having a relationship and that my hand gestures on the air were communicating messages to him. And this is a very dangerous man. He wound up going away for 10 years for this crime. And so my point is simply back then I even I wasn't controversial. I was rather new and kind of sweet and just covering the Supreme Court in very generic terms. So, it can happen to anybody, even somebody who's co-hosting the Today Show, which isn't particularly um controversial. I just there are nut cases in this business. And uh we definitely cannot rule that one out, unfortunately. Although, you tell me, Chad, is there a sophistication to this crime that under undermines the the theory of nutcase?

It's hard to say because of the I don't want to say lack of transparency. I understand why they're doing it. Um but it's hard to say. I I feel like a true nutcase and someone that's, you know, not done a lot of homework or prepared and didn't know the area very well would have slipped up somehow. Um

yes. Does that make sense? You know, yeah, it's they would they would have forgotten to wear gloves.

Something would have slipped up. Pair would have been found. Um, they wouldn't have known about the two Nest cameras. I mean, there were two. The person knew to take them both out,

which is very interesting. So, again, that takes me back to someone personal, and I'm not saying family. I'm just saying someone. I truly believe it is someone who has been in that residence before.

Um, okay. Just one one final look at my notes before I let you go because I want to make sure we we

have it all. Let's see. Um, they did check to see uh with local hospitals if somebody had sought to refill her critical prescriptions. The sheriff did reveal that and they he said we checked virtually every hour in the first day or so. It didn't it could have gone on longer. He he just mentioned that immediate time frame and they did not.

Well, one thing to look at Megan with the pharmacy aspect would be I would like to know when her script for those pills that she needs on a daily basis, when were they filled and how many are left in the bottle that was left at the house. So, did the person who took her throw some cuz they knew she needed them. They're that personal. They want to keep her alive. So, they took a handful of them to give her a daily dose of her pill to keep her alive. There's an avenue as well, an aspect that, you know, could be looked at as well. Okay. The the script, she's supposed to take one a day. You know what I mean?

Yeah. Yeah, if she just got it filled two days earlier and that bottle's missing all the pills, then this was somebody who actually planned a little who like dumped them out in his hand and ran

knew that she needed them. I mean, the the odds of that I just Well, who knows? I mean, if it if it if it was somebody who knew her well and really did have the intention of keeping her alive long enough to get paid, then it it could have happened. We can't rule it out. uh the ransom letter that they confirmed for the first time that the note that was sent to the media is the note that we are working on. And that he did say he believes it was the same note uh the same same note that the two local outlets in Tucson got and that TMZ got.

And that's the only note they know about. They did say that they arrested some other hoax for sending a different ransom demand that we didn't know about before today. that is not related to that note and reminded everybody that if you decide to be such a hostster, you will get arrested, too. They did confirm that the ransom note did not establish a communication method. That dubtales with what we heard from Harvey Leven on TMZ saying that the note basically said there'll be no talking. We we're not interested in talking. We just want to get paid. Um, was the doorbell camera taken? The sheriff, we don't have it.

So, that's kind of an implicit yes. Um, well, I don't know. Oh, that's interesting. Was the doorbell camera taken? Sheriff, we don't have it. What Ashley had reported was that she was told the the doorbell cams had been destroyed by the perpetrator and then she believed removed by the sheriff. So, actually, if he's saying we don't have the doorbell cam, it's possible that the bad guy took the doorbell cam too, like destroyed it and took it. Um, again, disconnected at 147, but the software detected a person on camera at 212.

That's the biggest mystery of the day. None of us has that figured out unless he, the sheriff did say he wasn't sure if it was the front front camera or the back camera, acknowledging that there was one in the front in the back door that caught the image of the person on cam. So, I suppose it's possible that one was destroyed at 147 and the other one detected an image at 212. Remains a mystery. You look like you want to say something. Well, I'm just think I'm try I'm trying to place this out. So, I know we've talked about, well, could this suspect have come through the back? We see the blood spatter on the front porch area coming out of the front door. So, it's almost like she did exit through the front door. So, if you're trying to be discreet, why would you come from the back but then exit from the front?

It makes no sense unless you just you needed to get her into a car and that was the only way.

Sure. Yeah. But you'd have to pull a car up. I mean, I suppose it's possible the guy could have come in the back. He could have dis dismantled or disabled that back camera. He's in the house now. He gets her. He has an accomplice with a car out in the front driveway. He hurts her in order to get her to comply. And on the way out, he takes out that front cam, which possibly possibly explains the difference in dates. I mean, like in times, I don't know. He shouldn't there technically be at 147 one c one doorbell cam was disconnected and then a second time where the second one was disconnected

correct and shouldn't they both follow the software detecting a person on camera? That's they both of those camera destructions or disconnections should follow

the software detecting a person on camera. Correct. Yeah. So we that's that's one of the mysteries from today. Um, there was a question, has the family received an image because of the reference in Savannah's on camera remarks last night? Digital images can be manipulated. You know, we need proof of life. And so that had us too wondering earlier, was she sent something that we don't know about? Like in those emailed ransom messages, was there an image of Nancy? I feel like the guys at TMZ who have lifted the dress up pretty high on what was on the note would have suggested there's something indisputable in there to show that they have Nancy. Um but the question was have they received an image? Has the family received an image of Nancy? And the um answer was we're not going to get into that and then just talked about the dangers of AI. Okay.

Well, that doesn't you know that doesn't tell us much. um actively looking at everyone. The sheriff, the only DNA evidence we've got is from we've gotten back is from the front porch, that blood evidence. Other items could take longer. We did process some others for DNA. So, there might have been something else inside the house. That's good. It's good to hear that they might have something still that could come back. uh the FBI confirming that they were there yesterday in Annie's house to participate in the video, to help with the video, but underscoring that was the family's decision. The family decided that they want they wanted to be contacted. They want to be in touch with the kidnapper.

Um there's been no contact after that note went to the media. We have a hostage negotiator as well as someone from Quantico. So the whoever wrote that ransom note has not contacted anybody to their knowledge since then. So if there was an AI image sent, it was in that note and I'm misreading Harvey Leven.

And the lot and the question is who would who would who would they call, you know, if they've seen this, you know, on Instagram of all places, which I think's very interesting in and of itself that they didn't go on, you know, they didn't choose to go on this show or Fox or CNN, any of these other outlets. They chose one that they know millions and millions and millions of people are going to see. Um, I think that's very interesting. But how, you know, how do they get in touch with with with the family? What would that look like in the future?

I mean, you got to think right now TMZ and these two Tucson outlets are hitting refresh in their email every two seconds, right? Because if this really is a kidnapper who's got Nancy Guthrie and there was a 5:00 deadline today. They didn't say what time. We're I'm assuming Arizona time. Um I mean that's scary. But I mean realistically do we believe the 5:00 deadline? Cuz like the family is saying we want to talk and if you think if you're a real kidnapper and you think you got them on the line and one of them's rich, I don't think you just kill the mother. I mean in this scenario.

No. I'm going to want to work. If this is the case and you really want to do that and you truly want this cryptocurrency, you're going to say, "Okay, I'm ready to talk to you. You put some fake, you know, digital voice on or some computer app and you're talking to them and um you go from there." So, I I I agree with you on that.

Um Okay, let's see. When did uh let's see. Is there any signs that someone tried to clean up the crime scene? Brian Ent asked that. They said, "We can't talk about that right now." Um, then they said the reason that they were back on the property searching again, even though they had already done that and then returned the property over to the family, uh, was that the FBI came to town and they just wanted like their own look. Do you buy that? What do you think actually happened there yesterday when they returned to the crime scene? Did a search down the road from where the house is on foot? Like a grid search on foot and then two hours later went to the actual house of Nancy Guthrie with FBI agents in the garage for quite some time in the backyard for quite some time and in in the house for the main time for about two hours with a helicopter hovering overhead for about one hour and then left and took their crime scene

down again and went home. No, I I honestly I think that and again I don't want to I'm not trying to down the sheriff's office or out there, but the FBI is going to have the best crime scene text technology resources out there. Um, so it doesn't surprise me that they went back and just kind of did a secondary. They probably went and to the sheriff's office, looked at all their video, um, and photographs and and and and really took about a day or two to dive into this case and then realize, okay, let us go now to the scene cuz maybe, you know, another set of eyes, a fresh set of eyes that hasn't been there in that first immediate dramatic time frame. You know, take a step back. It's been a few days, new set of eyes comes in. Hey, I would I would I would I would recommend that. I think that's a smart move on the bureau's part

and and this is definitely not their first rodeo. Like the FBI does deal with these sort of major cases all the time. So, we're glad they that the the locals have their resources and their experience to to work off of. All right. So, between now and tomorrow morning, I my team and I are going to work very hard to get to the bottom of why he said at 1:47 a.m. on Sunday, the doorbell cam was disconnected. And then at 2:12 a.m. the software detected a person on camera. How

how can that be? If the doorbell cam was disconnected, how was software detecting anything? We shall get back to you with the answer to that.

Chad, thank you. Thanks so much for your your commentary, your expertise. Absolutely. Thank you, Megan. This case is disturbing on so many levels. I know you feel it too. Just think like who would hurt an 84 year old woman? You know who who would hurt her? Who would take her? I just none of this makes sense. And um some of these lanes of inquiry also feel personal in a weird way too, maybe to you as well. Uh depending on what your life history is. These are not the meat sticks you grew up with. This is Paleo Valley. Made with 100% grass-fed beef from small-scale regenerative American family farms. Paleo Valley lets you feel good about what you are eating and who you are supporting. In fact, Paleo Valley is one of the few companies that sources 100% of its meat from American farms right here in the US. Real ingredients, real results. No preservatives, no gluten, soy, refined sugar, dairy, or GMOs. Whether you are

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My next guest is known for playing one of the most iconic characters in television history and one of my favorite ever, ever throughout my entire lifetime on any show anywhere. And that is Dr. Frasier Crane.

You're inviting me along to this evening of Devilment. You got a credit card, don't you? There you go.

You know, not so sure if it really fits in with my image. You know, a desperately lonely character on the make.

Well, I guess I'm in here singing and there's no one there. Hey, guess what everybody? Little Frederick beat Clifford dart.

Praise her. Everybody have fun tonight. Everybody Wang Chung tonight. Kelsey Grammer's story goes far beyond however just Cheers and the even superior to Cheers program. Frasier with roles in The Simpsons, X-Men, and on the Broadway stage. He's built a legendary career across TV, film, theater. He's got all the awards. But behind all the success and the smile on the big screen has been devastating loss. What many do not know about Kelsey Grammar is that his sister Karen was brutally murdered when Kelsey was just 20 and she was just 18. A tragedy that shaped his life and led him to write a deeply personal memoir published last year honoring her memory. It's titled Karen a brother remembers. Through the grief, Grammar credits both faith and resilience for carrying him forward. And now the Emmy award-winning actor Kelsey Grammar joins us for his first appearance on the Megan Kelly show. Kelsey Grammer, what a

pleasure. Hey Megan, how are you? Uh, thank you. It's a pleasure to be here as well. Thank you.

So nice to meet you. And so my my producers put together that lovely intro not knowing that I of course I love Cheers, but Frasier is literally my favorite television show to ever have aired on on TV. I have seen every episode multiple times. I'm in love with you and the entire cast. Thank you for that wonderful gift.

God bless you. We are we were very fortunate to do a very nice show and I mean yes we are responsible for it and there were a lot of people that sort of came together to make it what it was but uh it was a breathtaking time in my life and I I love that character. I mean the character is you know he's he's like a a bobble that's just been given to the world he can do anything basically which is really fun.

Well it's so funny. It's one of those things where it's really fun to listen to you talk in your, you know, regular voice because you don't sound like him at all, you know. I mean, it's just a reminder of what what a good job acting you did hitting the hard T's

and consonants as you played the arudite uptight arty. He has good certainly certainly does. Yes. And Niles too was a great for him throughout the years.

Um, so let's go back because I learned a lot about you in preparing for today. born in the in the Virgin Islands, which nobody was. That's you're it. You're the only one ever.

And uh and then raised in New Jersey and Florida. So like, by the way, if that's true, those are the two best news producing states in America. You must have had the most colorful experiences as a kid.

We did have colorful experiences. Listen, Florida for me was an ideal place. It was an ideal fit. I'll I'll I'll regress to Jersey in a second, but um when we moved to Florida, it was a presumptive joy for me and for Karen, for my sister. We loved Florida. We'd been there for Christmas a couple of times previously, and uh the warmth, the sound of the palm trees, the the the humidity, everything just felt like a kind of a a bath of sensual splendor. I mean, we we grew up in a time that was,

you know, a bit repressed and a bit uh sort of, you know, post 50s, post World War II, there was still a bit of that kind of hangover and uh for to go there and to live our lives going in the ocean every day and to go water skiing all the time and stuff like that was just it was a magnificent way to grow up. We just had the best time. And I think that's part of why it took me so long to to write the book about Karen was I mean I waited for almost 50 years to write it. It's a fascinating

u adjustment. But I finally realized I wanted to say something about her and and and ostensibly there's an argument to be made that people might be interested in what the future what the past was that you know brought about this this creation of Frasier and and my career and all that. Mhm.

The the early days. You suffered a lot of tragedy growing up. I didn't realize your dad was murdered.

Um and as was your sister and then you had two stepbros who died in a Right. That was more of a big thing. The the the diving accident with the shark. I mean, they never found any

any remains of Billy. He was he was lost completely and Stevie washed up on the shore. Um,

my god. I mean, that that's an unusually high percentage of tragedy a young man's life. Yeah.

Well, I thought it was interesting. I mean, first of all, it to explain to me all the stories I saw in the '90s of your drinking problem.

And then second of all, it I did think it was interesting. Uh, you could have written about any of those experiences and made it a bestselling book, but you must have been pretty close with your sister Karen to take on that particular tragedy and and really deal with it because I mean that is that that was so brutal and so personal.

It was pretty horrible. I wanted to in writing the book, I wanted to it's it's funny, you know, people people talk about what they've been through and then, you know, they often play like sort of a victim card and I know that, you know, I've certainly been accused of doing that myself, but I've done my best not to. Uh but in in telling the tale about Karen's uh destruction, the the night of her the last last night of her life, I wanted to make sure that there was a an honest uncovering of everything that happened so that people would understand it as a credential of sorts that when I gave out advice about how to survive such a thing, how to endure such a thing that it would be recognized as the same kind of tragedy that others pe others have actually endured. Uh I was trying to extend a hand of comfort to people who've been through similar things. And sadly there's a lot of people who have

been through similar things. Uh somebody told me a long time ago that no matter how how pretty you are, so there's somebody prettier. No matter how how handsome you are, there's somebody more handsome. There's somebody more talented. U there is always a more tragic tale. And so I just needed to let people know that what I was coming from was a a real a real place, a real source. So that the comfort I was hoping to offer would come from a place that seemed authentic and real

and might actually bring It certainly does. Can you tell us uh what happened to Karen?

Karen was abducted uh around 12:30 in the morning um outside of the Red Lobster where she worked. She was waiting for some friends to come out and uh a few hours later she was dead. They they they took her and uh one of the one of the fellas walked up to her and showed her a gun and said, "We're going to you're coming with us." And uh so they put in a back seat. They went back into the Red Lobster after that. And uh we're going to rob the place. And I think something about the the setup of what where they were in their heads, they didn't end up robbing it. They just ended ended up going back out to the car. Then they took Karen to one of their apartments and that's where they raped her and um she pleaded for her life several several times. And uh the the the account we have of what happened to her those last few hours was basically provided by a guy who was arrested in New Orleans several months after her

murder who said, "I know about the girl in in Colorado." And they said, "What are you talking about?" And then that's what then the police flew there and and they finally said to me, they called me a week or so later and said, "We think we have the guys." And uh so it was three of them. And uh they there was one young man there who apparently had not been part of the other killings as much and they thought he should earn his stripes basically. And so he was the one that

put the knife in her several times and they left her to die by this little trailer park where I I visited in the I visited that spot in the book. It's sort of a sad feeling. There's a a home there where I think the the guy who found Karen actually still lives there. I think it's it's got a a tall fence and some barbed wire on top and it's like like he didn't want to be bothered. So, you know, he wasn't bothered. I don't I don't want to hurt anybody or make anybody go back and relive something. Uh but for me, it's been left to relive it all the time because we've had, you know, parole hearings and stuff like that which take me

back to it and that was that's that's difficult. But you know what? You're working to make sure that that

Yeah. that he Yeah. But I just I just think and insult to injury is what that would amount to for me. Well, because I I read that with your dad's murder, he was shot by a man who was convicted, but then it was overturned. Is that correct? It was overturned because of uh he was found insane.

He was found not guilty by reason of insanity. Uh the other the other problem is I don't know all the particulars of it, but the rumor mill, you know, uh apparently there was more of a kind of an assassination thing because uh the tensions were running high in the Virgin Islands. They do that all the time. there's a kind of a an energy there that's sometimes it's like seasonally violent and then it's kind of really placid and wonderful in the paradise you believe it is. But uh when um a few years later after this this man whose last name ironically is Niles nobody nobody understands how that happens. Uh it's just weird. But uh

yeah, apparently he was arrested again in an attempted uh professional hit on a judge. So he went back to jail.

He was he was sent back to jail. Well, because when I saw I was but I was thinking you you must be extra determined to go to those parole hearings for your sister's killer because you've already been burned somewhat by the system.

Yeah. And I to me I don't know Kelsey if you ever thought about this, but it almost seemed like is it ironic or is it actually totally it makes perfect sense that a guy who's been through all of that would choose a career in comedy?

Well, it does seem but I think that's how we do it. You know, laugh. There's a there's a great poem um by a writer named James Merrill who uh I think he taught at Yale for a while but he he taugh he describes at one point um one of the characters in the story but it it's like an epic poem a modern epic poem but he describes the sound of hearing um God's voice God's song God be song so calls him God biology and and the the character says that it it was like listening to a man on a life raft singing to keep up his nerve.

And I think that's what I am. So Well, you were you were on your way toward a career in the arts

when Karen was killed. You were at Giuliard at the time, right? Well, I'd just been kicked out.

And by the way, yeah, you just been kicked out. So what h why did how did you get how did Kelsey Grammar get kicked out of Julia? I I you know I I look back on it and I really think it's because I didn't go to acting class.

Oh well that'll do it. It wasn't deeply personal. I I said I just didn't really like the guy so much and I thought I don't know if I'm learning anything from this guy so I just go take a walk instead. And uh that uh proved out you know proved to be sort of a bad investment of my time. You know, it's funny because uh I was rejected from the Syracuse University.

I can't imagine anyone and uh rejecting you. Well, I was rejected and now I love telling that story, but the uh the the heir to the New House fortune uh sat next to me at an event. It was actually an Oscars party one year and he said, "Please please stop telling people that story."

Okay. Yeah. Just cut it out. So, we got the last laugh. Kelsey, you and I both got the last laugh in the end. So you you you had parents in the business, right? Your mom your mom in particular was a performer,

right? My mom had done some summer stock. She met her mom my she met my dad at at music school. Um that's really all I really know about that particular thing. They don't really discuss they never discussed it with me. I didn't really know my dad very well. But um and then he was in the army for a while and I've been told he blew taps at Arlington. So that's kind of cool. But uh once he got out of the army, he and his friend did that classic thing where you spin the globe and their finger landed on the Virgin Islands. So that's how we ended up there and my mom was pregnant and

wow, I was born. That's how it started. And along came you. All right. So you mentioned New Jersey and Florida. What what were the ages? I'm just curious like when where did you come of age? Florida

3 to 12. Um Florida was 12 to 18. That was you know that's come of age. So that's kind of home.

That's rock and roll. Well, it also kind of explains why a man like you who declares himself openly Republican would choose to live in the People's Republic of California. You you like warm weather.

You were born in the Virgin Islands, you know, all those years in Florida. What else would explain it?

California. I mean, I my family is from California. I am actually from California. All the all the bones are baked here. All the all the the burial plots live here. Um we just ended up on the the east coast after um World War II because my grandfather was in the oil business for Standard Oil of California. So it was he was assigned to go to New York City where he he worked in the Empire State Building for for several years where I would visit him and then uh he was instrumental in moving the company headquarters on the east coast to Perth Amboy in New Jersey where my sister Karen was born. So it all sort of

ties together nicely that way. But I I've I always loved California. My great greatgrandfather brought wagon trains across the country to to California. Uh he met his wife on one of those wagon trains and that was Kora. And you know, I mean I have I do have a lot of information because I did that show to you know um who do you think you are? So

yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I got some some more. That's great. Well, somehow you've made it work. We'll get to that in a bit. Your your politics and your chosen state and your governor, but we'll table it for now until we get there. So you're you're making your way in the acting business. You do some some theater as I understand. You do some Shakespeare which is good training for for Frasier Crane. And was Cheers your big break?

Yeah. I mean I I did some Broadway before that. I did uh I did McBTH at Lincoln Center and uh I was understudying the lead at the time. Uh an actor named Philip Anglam who was a terrific guy and did a did did a pretty nice job as McBTH. McBth is one of those cursed shows, you know, you always you always fail in McBTH. I don't really know why, but so he he didn't really he wasn't really happy about how things were received. So, I went on I I played the role for several weeks and he finally came back and played a few of the final closing performances. It was a great uh role for me to cut my teeth on terms of the classics and understanding what it's like to be the the center of a piece uh in front of a crowd that is that, you know, educated and and um and critical. And so I did pretty well out of that. And then I ended up in um a production of Oll with James O. Jones and Christopher Plameumber. That's where

I became great friends with James Earl Jones. I was recently at his memorial several months ago where they u renamed a theater in his honor. And so it's now the James Jones Theater just off Broadway, which is very, very cool. And it's very cool to have known that he was a

he was a miraculous actor and and an even better person. Uh I have nothing but the highest of praise for him.

Wow. And Christopher Plamer, too. What a gift. And we lost, you know, Chris was so vital. He was an interesting fellow. He and I did not get along so well early on, but I was a young man, you know, and like

you crossed Captain Vonra. What were you thinking? Did it did feel that way for a while, but then we ended up being pretty friendly. It's like we had we were there was like

you move on to Cheers and your career takes off. It's like rocket ship. That show was such a hit and it was back in the days when we were all watching the same program at night. It wasn't as splintered as it is today. So, you become a rocket ship superstar

overnight. And is is that when you would say some of these past traumas started to manifest more in your life as as happens for many people?

Yes. I mean what what happened to me was um I felt guilty. Um yeah, but I also fell in love with the idea that I could actually finally, you know, indulge myself a little bit. I mean, I'd been living on little more than a prayer for almost a decade. Uh where things were very hard. I mean, I didn't buy my first new car till I was 39 years old. I mean, this was this was uh it was time for Kelse to finally explore what it was like to be flush a little bit, to enjoy his life a little bit, to live big. I finally got a sailboat. There was there were several things that came into play that actually made my life quite worth living. But there was a a dark side of it that actually, you know, I was I was sad. I was sad. And I mean somebody said that addiction um the the the major uh cause of addiction is uh unresolved grief. And I think that probably fueled mine. I mean it certainly wasn't trying to kill myself or anything. People have

asked that question. Uh I'm you know I'm writing another book now about myself which is actually

okay. I'm about oh 100 pages into it at this point. But uh how are you liking yourself?

I'm okay. Good. It was it was great to let go of some of the stuff about Karen without, you know, dishonoring her. I I always felt guilty that she didn't have the life I had,

but she was along for the ride in a lot of ways. So, it was great for me to have a chance to introduce her to people in the book. And then and then

are you one of my great friends first one of the first people who read what I had written so far edited since his reading of it, but he said, "I feel like I know your sister now." And that was all I wanted.

That's exactly it. So you've done her a great tribute because you've kept her alive for all of us. Now now I know her and your friend knows her and so many millions of others know her which is you know I think when you lose somebody that's really one of your main worries. You want the world to know them. I I know a lot of dear friends who have who have suffered major loss and and they repeat that. So you did honor her with this with this book about her and and maybe I don't know did it take you to a place where you feel healed or more healed than you were? Um it is I I think I said in the book I will still weep buckets but yes there is a sense of um I can claim my life now without feeling guilty about it

and that was a that was a real blessing for me. The survivor's guilt makes no sense. You know it makes absolutely no sense but it it is a real thing. I've talked to so many people who deal with it.

There you are. And uh yeah, it can drive you to drink. It can drive you to do all sorts of things. A lot of people go to Hollywood and become big stars and do those things just because they want to. Anyway,

well, you had a few good Robin used to say used to say, you know, cocaine is God's way of saying you're making too much money.

So, I mean, it is kind of interesting. This year, I had the pleasure of getting to know and befriend Charlie Sheen. So, I've been spending a lot of time thinking about some of this. Um, how how were you able to function at such a high level while drinking so much and doing so many drugs?

Well, I've got a a good brain and I always knew when to pull it back. I always knew when to stop, honestly. I mean, there were moments when, you know, I looked pretty beat up, but I could always, you know, kind of pull myself together enough to, you know, have a semblance of uh acumen and talent and and uh performance. So, it was never that far out of my reach. So, and I and I it's sort of like I' I've raced cars a little bit, you know, a long time ago. Um,

you have. Yeah. But that the thing that the thing that I didn't do was I didn't go to the place where I knew I wasn't safe.

And I think that was an indication of who I actually Oh. I always knew that I was

okay. Able to put it down. There was a moment when I'd said, "Okay, that's enough now. Go get some rest." Was was there someone like who you worked with either on the Cheers? I think this is mostly during the Cheers years. Um,

well, there was there was a there was a real section during Frraasier when I I needed to take some time off. That was when it kind of really came to a head cuz I mean suddenly I was making an extraordinary amount of money and uh I still felt uh like I needed to apologize for that on some level. Of course, the world around us says you need to apologize for being successful, which seems absolutely ridiculous. This is America for God's sakes. Uh which may may explain point toward some of my politics. Uh we need not be embarrassed by success. We need not be shamed by it.

And it seems that we like winning on the right side. Yeah. Yeah. It seems that that's sort of what's going on. Um

but uh I'm trying to get back to my thread on that. Well, was there some I was going to ask you, was there somebody who

Oh, somebody or somebody who really pushed you to to put it down and Yeah. The folks at your said, you know, look, it's time to kind of, you know, step away from it. I said, okay. I did that for a while and uh had a few good years of clean living. Well, not exactly clean, but you know, cleanish cleanish living and uh

couple of, you know, messed up relationships, but a couple of good ones. So, you know, there were some decent people around. Um I I liked and I still like uh interaction with people and that's the greatest source for me of all experience is just is the fact that you know people and and watch them and

that that's where I did my training. My training actually has just been in you know observing the human condition and the way people behave and that's that's what you

great actors and great writers. Yeah. And great writers. Same thing. Good. Yeah. So, did you ever have a Todd Love affair with uh Shelley Long or Kirsty Alley or um BB Neworth? Come on, spill the tea.

No, you know what? It's it's it's never really a good idea to have Todd Love affairs with people you're working with.

No, it's not a good idea, but that's not a denial. Yeah, it's not a denial. But but no, I never did know. Um it's funny. I I didn't get to know Shelley very well because she left really after I got to the show a couple years later. uh she went off after the fifth season and uh that's when Kirsty came on the show and that's when I realized when when Kirsty made her first appearance in the show and I was watching I thought to myself, boy, this this show is going to be successful for a while. She's great and I got to know her pretty well and I always loved Kirsty. I think she's one of the funniest people that ever lived.

I was devastated by her by her premature demise, you know. I mean, just for her to go the way she went, it just was like, oh, come on. She was such always such a light and you know and she was um she was a kind of ecstatic person. She would live uh in a silliness about her. I mean she she did I don't know if this would ever ever go anywhere anymore but at one point she stood all the men on cheers up against the bar and she said I'm going to guess which of you has the biggest package. She was unflapable. And of course we all you know you know said okay well what the heck it's just but it was a different time though

which either makes you feel really really proud or really nervous depending on what category

that that eye looking sort of a scance at you. Yeah. But she was a riot and she was it was always in good fun. She was celebratory and fun and you know there were she went up and down and you know and was but always funny. It was Kirsty who told me that uh when you go on like a show like Carson or something like that and of course I I I missed Carson Jaylen it was his first year and I thought okay but um uh she said just make up somebody pretend you're somebody else Kirsty

I said that's exhausting I'll never I'll never be able to keep track for one thing. So

I I I think she gave that same advice to Brian Williams of NBC News and that would come back to haunt him, but

no bit him on the Sure did. Um so then you wind up doing the spin-off of Cheers, which is Frasier, which is I mean just as big if not bigger a hit. Ran for the same another decade. And the re one of the reasons why I'm so surprised to learn that you love race cars is because my favorite episode of Frraasier, it is the one I've mentioned it on this show multiple times and my whole family can recite it start to finish

is um you and your brother Niles who are these, you know, very uptight priish socialite men, both psychiatrists, um not men's men at all, much to the chagrin of their man's manfather. decide you have to go to auto mechanic.

I saw that show the other day. It's the greatest. I had my team pull a small clip for the audience that hasn't seen it. Here's just a tad.

No one else wore them in gym class either, but then Tommy Fritz scratched his cornea and then they were mandatory. Give me that. Give me that wrench.

I'm telling you. I'm telling you. I'm too tight. Here, I'll just try to loosen it up. Whoa. Whoa. Remember, uh, spark plugs come out with a simple twist and pull. Twist and pull. Give it a try. Mhm.

Okay. Um, that's called stripping it. Wow. Good job, Frzer. Here, let me strip one.

No. No. Stripping it means breaking it. Uh, watch me. So you twist and then pull. You see, I was twisting and pulling simultaneously as per your instructions. Twist and pull.

In the future, the phrase twist then pull might help. Look fellas, maybe that's enough for one night. But uh why don't you come in a little early next week and I'll try to get you caught up to everyone else. So, I've got a feeling you guys are going to be my special project

and then you realize you were the remedial students. Yeah, that was a nightmare. Unusual for those boys. It was not a good thing to be the remedial students.

I love that guy. So, but that was real acting because Do you know your way around an engine?

Well, actually I do. Um, this was one of my come to Jesus moments in my career when I realized as I was changing my own oil after I was on television, I thought to myself, you know what? There are people who make their living doing this. I'm depriving them of their living while I'm making mine. So, I started thinking, I should get my oil ch my oil changed by a professional. That that is exactly the storyline of the auto uh mechanic episode where

that the two guys eventually realize that that they're stealing jobs from very good auto mechanics and really should leave this class ASAP.

Yeah. I I you know I I really it was a real thing for me because I I always I always I always grow I grew up looking after my mom's cars, my grandmother's cars. I I had to always change the oil, change the plugs, sometimes set the timing, you know, there was different things you set the gap on the plug. There's all sorts of stuff we used to do that you don't have to do anymore. Uh because we had carburetors then, you know, now it's fuel injection. Um I

Yeah, you're not you're speaking Greek to me. I don't even know if the engine of my car is in the front or the back.

I was very proud to do them and look after things in the house. It was my job. I was the I was the man of the family, you know, and so it just carried on into my life a bit longer than maybe most

So did you maintain a friendship with David Hyde Pierce who played Niles or Were you still friends? Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's a it's it's a good relationship. Uh uh David's in New York. He's he's sort of become the maven of, you know, uh Broadway theater.

Yeah. I've seen him. I've I've stayed over here on the West Coast. Uh but I, you know, back gone over to New York once in a while. And I did a I did a movie with Charles Durning several years back, couple of decades now, I guess. But, um and I said, "What do you what do you like to do to keep, you know, things sharp, keep things focused?" He said, "Well, I try to do a play every year for at least 6 weeks. You know, it's like a you do a an out of town play somewhere. You'd probably take off a month or two to to keep the engine running, you know, to keep the keep the the senses uh honed." And I thought, well, every year is going to be too hard to manage for me. Um, too many responsibilities. But I I did try to do every five years. And I think I've kind of stuck with that. It's a It's I'm I'm a little late right now, this little phase in my life. I think I it's about time for me to go do a play again, but

we'll we'll see. I don't know what it's going to be. It always seems exciting. I mean, I can't imagine standing up there and just hearing those applause with from a live audience night after night after night. But on the other hand, at what point do you get sick of doing the exact same routine night, right? Does that ever seep in, especially as somebody who doesn't normally spend his acting career doing that?

Yeah, it it there was an actor named Michael Goff. I think he was the I think he played Alfred in the first in the in the um the first Batman with the with which Jack Nicholson was in. I think he played the butler, you know, and he was a wonderful guy. And at one point he was in a conversation with me. I maybe were we were at Charlie's or something, you know, um having an after theater drink and he said, "Oh, don't you love long runs?" And I thought to myself, well, not really. But it was it was his insistence that a long run was a glorious thing to be involved in that I started to I started to try to dissect what he was thinking about and to appreciate it. And so the next time I was in a long run was actually doing um Oll. And so that was we ran for a year doing that. I was in it for a year and I started to allow myself to understand what that meant. It has to be a great play like a Shakespeare play.

That language is is just so much more um excellent than most others. Most other plays really do not match up. I mean, you can try to do Eugene O'Neal for, you know, six months and you're just going to drive yourself into the ground with it. um he's a lovely writer. It's just a it's just not the same kind of experience. There's a there's a connection to life, a sort of a a universal life that Shakespeare just is. I I believe there was a book written about him called the u invention of the human which is basically lays at Shakespeare's feet the creation of all our language of how we communicate with one another. And yeah, it's only four almost 500 years ago, but um that language when you're on stage, you'll be in the midst of a scene you've done a a dozen times or a hundred times and suddenly hear something you've never heard before. And that's the beauty of the long run.

I can see it. Yeah. Now that you walk me through it, poor Eugene O'Neal took a beating there, but I didn't mean to beat him. Lovely in a way. It's just it's a bit self-conscious, isn't it? Yes. Well, now the thing I mean I go to Broadway all the time. We love Broadway. We're we're constantly there. But it's gotten very woke. Yeah.

And you know, we went to see um we we saw McBTH and it was starring Daniel Craig

and Kelsey. They had the king's son was played by a girl, a woman who was had a blue mohawk. Okay. So, we're trying to buy this like okay 14th or 15th century Scotland character with a blue mohawk and it's supposed to be a man but it's being played by a woman. There has there was a character it was a minor minority majority cast which is not at all representative of this time in Scotland either. There was a guy in a wheelchair playing a part. It was like okay I appreciate the handicap getting roles but like that doesn't work for this time frame either. And no one wore a costume like like the king's son was wearing a t-shirt like a like a stones a Rolling Stones t-shirt. I'm like what is this?

You tell me. What is that? The good news is uh that Shakespeare can survive all of that. He his language is is that good that you can actually try to put as many overlays on it and the play is still going to work. That's extraordinary. Somebody somebody that's good advice. A very wise person once told me, they said, uh, I've seen good actors enhance a poor play, but I've never seen bad actors ruin Shakespeare.

Oh. So maybe these maybe some of these productions are oh, misguided or way too informed with our with current trends. The good news is that it's a play. It doesn't last forever. No one, thank God, is going to film it. and uh you will not end up you know printing that impression of McBTH on

too many people although it's clearly caused you some strife but uh have you a had to act across my fellow team from one of these super woke people like honestly like I highly recommend you not take a role across from Patty Lupone I beg

you know Patty did my show years ago she's just gotten she's gone down that that that lane and you know I think it's But how how do you explain it? It's um I love people of great passion and uh shortsightedness. Uh there there's, you know, this it's myopia if you want or or myopic in its way, nearsighted shortsightedness. There's no real long game in it because it doesn't really have human value. It has um exaggerated value. It's it's like you you know in in Alcoholics Anonymous they talk about how you can raise your bottom uh meaning the you don't have to completely bottom out. You don't have to end up you know sleeping on the street to realize oh this is now a problem.

Well in in this case they've raised um a level of a perceived injustice or a perceived need in their society to a place where it actually is discordant. It doesn't necessarily equate to human necessity or human value. It doesn't necessarily make the world better. It makes us more strident and and less tolerant. And certainly, if we believe in tolerance, then you don't need to be yelling and screaming about whether or not a person with a a mohawk deserves the same degree of um attention or or to be taken as seriously as someone who is wearing a suit. I mean you you can you can elevate so many things to a pinnacle of meaning that are pretty much not

very important. So this is your diagnosis of wokeness of what the woke do. U the woke thing is really it's a manufactured outrage that has been used as a a lever for political change when

it's probably not it probably doesn't have the the teeth for that. it probably doesn't have the chops to make it all the way to, oh, we have to define our lives by this. For instance, we have a lot of people in theater now who say if you're not gay or or trans or whatever, you can never play a a gay person. Well, that would be like

how many times do we have to play uh how many how many how many straight men do we have to have in the theater to allow us to have like straight relationships? Certainly, uh at least in the play itself, in the world of the play, a man and a woman are married. a lot of a lot of people doing those roles that's not the case. But it is acting.

Yeah. And we we've now we've now entered a world where people say you have to be the person in order to play the person. So unfortunately there will be no no more acting careers because you'll just

play there was a there was a I'm not going to do that. There was a movie coming out I don't eight years ago about a trans person and Scarlett Johansson was supposed to star and it got killed because she's not trans.

It's ridiculous to think that a person can't play a trans person. Surely we could understand actors. Maybe we don't maybe we don't place the same value on it as as having you know your mother uh u marry your your father's brother or something like that. That's that's Hamlet. I mean we don't I thought we were talking about great poem by Carl. I was like you're close. You're you're you almost have.

Yeah. Who and he says they yet they all want to play Hamlet. Um they haven't exactly seen their mothers you know messing around with their father with their father's brother. They haven't actually seen their fathers murdered. They had haven't exactly, you know, gone to gone to the place where you try to stab your best friend with a with a with a a sword. Um, and yet they all want to play Hamlet. Our creative imagination is what draws us into being actors. It's not the fact that we are actually gay or straight or anything else or married or or Harvard educated psychiatrist.

We can play anything that's part of the human experience because that's what we're good at.

It's okay to be that. So, I think everybody agrees with that. They just pretend not to uh to get themselves some sort of social clicks. But you've been kind of outspoken. My team found a clip of you speaking of you going on Leno from 2012 talking about being an out Republican.

Um now that's that's bold. 2012 like wow. You came out with it pretty early. You were already a big star.

But why why be so open about it? Because virtually every Republican Ian I know in Hollywood just calls themselves an independent.

Yeah. That's why it's so popular now. There's a lot of people who are popularly, oh, I'm an independent. Well, okay. Well, fine. So, thank God you make some sense once in a while. Um, I'm I'm a little more outspoken about it. I just think it's sort of exhausting to be so up in arms about every single issue that comes down the pike. uh it is it is not wise I think to take uh anything but a more long view a longer view of things to have a little bit of perspective and to stand back from issues that seem important in that day or in that moment and realize that yeah that's the that's the currency of of political discourse I guess and and of trying to win elections or or not win elections or destroy your opponents. I mean, we live in America.

We're all Americans. We need to remember that. And uh at least I believe we need to remember that. And that my fellow American is not my enemy. No, that goes back to my Christian lens that I put on things, which is, you know, love thy enemy enemy as thyself. Do unto others as you would have others do unto you. These are things that still are important to me. And so that's why I think I probably outed myself a long time ago. Uh, in retrospect, and this is a a current um topic, it did relegate me to uh the fringes of society in Hollywood. And so I may have had my my my pecadillos as they say, but I was never part of the dungeon crowd, the stuff I've heard about. I'm not in that world. And so the world that

How did it relegate you to the fringes? Oh, well, I wasn't invited to those parties.

Oh, I'm glad I wasn't. Yeah, exactly. Speaking of raising the bottom, you don't want to go to those You don't want to go to those parties at all. I've heard about what goes on there.

Well, that's what I I heard about it a few years ago. I was on a flight with a fairly famous actor who shared some stuff with me that I thought, "Holy moly, this actually goes on in Hollywood." And uh he was a participant and a and a fairly knowledgeable fellow. And I thought, "My goodness, I really dodged a bullet there."

Are we talking about sex stuff or drug stuff? Sex slash just all of it. All the stuff you see sort of public.

Let me tell you something. News too. News too. I could tell you some stories not involving yours truly,

but with some people in news that would make your eyes roll in the back of your head. People who are on the air right now

posing as very severe news anchors have a whole different side. Well, I I do love that you have that information.

But I like you, I don't go to those parties. I stay home with my husband. Yeah, I do. Speaking of the spouse,

why did I watch you for a good year, maybe more on The Real Housewives of Beverly Hills. There you were.

I, you know, I don't really talk about that part of my life very much anymore. I do. There's a couple of wonderful children I have as a result. Um, I don't throw any daggers or knives or anything else. U, that's a part of my past and, uh, I was not going to survive. So, I'm glad I I'm glad we went to a different place.

You found you found a way out of that. But it was fascinating to watch. It was a window into your beautiful home and your your life.

It was well it wasn't it was a window through some but it wasn't a clear glass, let's say.

But that's the nature of those shows, you know. You know they're not real. So, you kind of you kind of accept that this is just all, you know, high duden.

Yeah, that's right. So, but you now have eight children, right? Eight kids. And are any of them in the business or have the taste for it or not?

Well, they're all sort of business adjacent. My my eldest daughter, Spencer, uh is an actress and uh does um has had, you know, a substantial career. She's done really well and she's she's currently on um uh Rick and Morty. So, she's one of the voices in Rick and Morty, and she does really well. And that's been over a decade, I think, that she's been on that. and that's that's given her some independence and some some wealth, you know, certainly enough to manage having a home and stuff like that. She has a wonderful son. So, I have a grandson named EMTT who's a a terrific kid and uh we don't see each other as much as I'd like to, but I I do see them out to, you know, to to know there's a relationship there. Um my next daughter, Greer, is uh um she's doing pretty well. She's an actress. She's very interested in it. We spend quite a bit of time together and then we'll spend, you know, a year without seeing

each other at all. But there is still a real love there and uh and a love that actually, you know, took us a little time to figure out to to get uh

to identify because it wasn't in her life really when she was younger. U then there's Mason and Jude.

That's from the the previous um show just just identified as the real housewife.

Yes. So she's but I see them quite a bit. Jude's off in school and Mason's now living in California. She's got a boyfriend and she tends to live with her mom most of the time, but I don't really ask any questions.

Okay, that's probably that's the safest way sometimes. Exactly. The new It's not part of my life. So I mean I'm actually gracious very great gratefully removed from it. Um the uh the life I live now with Kate is a magnificent life and uh we just had a baby. She's um an extraordinary mom. Our our little boy just turned 4 months old uh yesterday uh on her mom. It was Kate's birthday yesterday.

And uh we need How long have you and Kate been together? We've been together uh 16 years.

Wow. It doesn't it doesn't seem possible, does it? It's like you go, "Wow." No, I feel like I was watching you on that show 5 years ago, but I guess it was a long

anniversary time then. Now, is she a Republican? Uh, she's English, so she's not particularly anything.

Okay. She's more she's sort of a-political. She doesn't really care for it. That's good.

She's very funny about uh California. I mean, you know, we have, you know, we have there's people who wear their views on their sleeve here that just it is kind of just tiresome after a while

or on their mask. I can't be assaulted by some human being who doesn't seem to have any real deep thought going on. They're just paring things and you think I don't.

But you're in trouble now. You're in trouble because it's one thing to be a Republican in 2012, but it's quite another to be a Trump supporter, which you've outed yourself.

Maybe the most dangerous thing you've done in your life. Well, I you know what? It's never cost me um it's never cost me opportunity. It has probably cost me some jobs, but uh

has it cost you any friends? One one that I know of. It was more of a recent friend who who who looks through the darkness of well whatever assumptions are made.

Is it Brian Cranston? No, it's not. No. Okay. Um I know he's abandoning everybody who's right of center. Well, you know, I've I've heard that from some people, too. But, you know, I like to live where I can live, you know, and I I I would not actually be able to tolerate living on that on that side of the line. So, it's okay. We all have our, you know, our own um

Well, how do you think Trump's doing? I think he's doing really well. I think he's, you know, it's annoying to a lot of people. I think he's doing a wonderful job. He is uh uh there's a phrase in Shakespeare, he's he puts transgression to it. Um, it's not popular sometimes, but the man speaks his mind and you know where he stands. And I've never seen a more transparent presidency in my life. I mean, he talks every day to the press. Some people don't like it. I don't know why they don't like it because we spent years, you know, hearing from the previous guy two or three times and that was always just like, yeah, if you don't like gun rights being taken away from you, go find an F-15 and see if you can beat us.

You know, it's like a a belligerance that was seemed to come from a a very weak position.

Mhm. So, you're feeling good. You're And how how are you thinking about the next election if at all like in 2018? Is there somebody you like right now?

I don't Well, I mean the House may change but the presidency won't and senate won't. So, you know, it might change, it might not. Who knows? We'll just

Well, I meant the presidential election. you like a favorite. JD Vance, Marco Rubio.

Well, I like I actually like both of them. I think there's a pretty deep bench. I think there's a lot of people who actually would be pretty extraordinary on that side. There's a couple of people on the left that are are fairly interesting. I think they have to abandon this idea of like supporting criminals and and saying you have to that I was really surprised that Kamala Harris supported the idea of bailing out people who were uh clearly rioting. I thought that was a little odd.

I I don't think that holds up. Yeah. I mean, it's we're doing the same thing, you know, now, but political seasons political seasons are like this. You go back to um Mitt Romney and Barack Obama. I mean, but they were we're staging stuff outside of Wall Street. Remember that? There was like, you know, and I mean, you're you're from California, though, so like now it's kind of shaping up to be possibly Gavin Newsome versus maybe a JD Vance. I mean, is there any world in which you could get behind your current governor?

No. No. Gavin News, like, as I said, I'm I'm from California. I mean, I really I'm from California. My grandfather told me stories of fighting fires uh in outside of Fresno where he was born. Uh Black Mountain Ranch is where he was born. Um in the Kettleman Hills. And when he was 14, he was part of a volunteer group that fought fires. He said it was the only thing that really scared him. And he served in Guala Canal for two years. Um, this was a man of incredible courage. But you live in California, you know, there were fires here. The the abject failure of Gavin Newsome in his role as a governor indictes him to the point where there's no way he can be ser taken seriously as a candidate. I don't think I don't think even most Democrats take him seriously as the next possible presidential VP. He can, you know, he can lob grenades and he's great at doing that. He's very good at talking for about four hours and s

still saying nothing. I mean, you know, politicians have a certain gift that way. I call it the balancing subtrafuge of political double speak.

Um, he's really good at it because I mean, honestly, I've I've heard that guy talk for over four or five years and I still don't know what he says.

I just know that he's garbage and uh I have no particular state. He doesn't actually sit still. He's got very weird jerky

soothing issue in there. You know, when he was rocking back and forth LA 2.0 know or whatever. It just it was a monumental uh masterpiece of malfeasants.

Yeah. And people are still not recovered from it. I think Kelsey, I'd love to continue this when when the race is on. Please come back and we will analyze all aspects of Gavin versus or Kamla uh both California people versus anybody on the right because it's going to be a fun contest to watch. Thanks so much for coming with you. Thank you so much. And I'm a

The pleasure was all mine. Thank you. Thank you so much. Kelsey Grammar. Check out his book about his sister Karen. It really is powerful and very open. I mean, not not every star as big as Kelsey Grammar will share uh with you this kind of story. And it's called Karen, a brother remembers. And it's a deeply personal memoir of what happened uh to his sister. And you learn a lot about him. And what a charmer, right? And what a brave guy to come out with all that in today's day and age in Hollywood. We need millions more just like him. Okay. Uh we will be back tomorrow. Thank you for listening.

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "News About Guthrie Kidnapping Investigation, & GOP in Hollywood, w Kelsey Grammer, Brian Entin, More"?

Megyn Kelly (Guest), Kelsey Grammer (Guest), Brian Enton (Guest).

What is "News About Guthrie Kidnapping Investigation, & GOP in Hollywood, w Kelsey Grammer, Brian Entin, More" about?

The investigation into the kidnapping of Nancy Guthrie, the 84-year-old mother of NBC News host Savannah Guthrie, intensifies as Savannah and her siblings release a heartfelt video plea for her safe return, addressing the worrying reports of a ransom letter. The emotional weight of their public appeal underscores the family's desperation, as they seek confirmation of Nancy's well-being amid a…

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17 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Nancy Guthrie, Megan Kelly, Savannah Guthrie, FBI, Tucson, Annie Guthrie. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "News About Guthrie Kidnapping Investigation, & GOP in Hollywood, w Kelsey Grammer, Brian Entin, More"?

The episode runs 3 h 1 min; the transcript is about 34,714 words in 428 timestamped sections.

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