The Legal Questions About Don Lemon's Claim of "Journalism" After Arrest, with Jonathan Turley

What this episode is about

The discussion centers on Don Lemon's recent arrest, examining whether his actions constituted journalism or protest, particularly in relation to entering a church without permission. Legal experts highlight the implications of the Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances (FACE) Act and the challenges Lemon may face due to the nature of his conduct, emphasizing the ongoing debate about the evolving role of journalists in society.

Key takeaways

• Don Lemon’s chaotic journalism raises eyebrows: Is he reporting or simply protesting? The line blurs disturbingly.
• Churches may offer sanctuary, but Don Lemon's trespassing saga reveals that rights are contingent on context.
• The Face Act: meant to protect, yet its application creates a tempest of controversial interpretations and inconsistencies.
• Journalism schools champion advocacy over objectivity, gesturing towards a future where protest and reporting are indistinguishable.
• So, can journalists trespass? Don Lemon’s case pinpoints the perilous tightrope between protected speech and private property.

Who speaks in this episode?

• Megyn Kelly (Guest) · 6 min speaking
• Jonathan Turley (Guest) · 7 min speaking

What is discussed, and when

1. 0:00 – 3:00: Don Lemon, Mandy & Ralph Ellison, Rage of the Republic
2. 3:00 – 6:00: Don Lemon
3. 6:00 – 9:00: Don Lemon
4. 9:00 – 12:00: Don Lemon, Rage of the Republic, Birch Gold Group

Notable quotes from "The Legal Questions About Don Lemon's Claim of "Journalism" After Arrest, with Jonathan Turley"

• People's right to observe their faith, is pretty well established. So that's why I think Don Lemon's in a lot of trouble whether they think he was acting as a journalist or not. Do you disagree with me?

  about Don Lemon · at 0:49

• Church. Well, the fascinating thing on that point, which is a an excellent analogy, is that Ellison himself has interpreted the face act when it comes to prolife defendants as…

  about Mandy & Ralph Ellison · at 4:07

• Well, I think that's the sort of fascinating thing for me. you know with rage of the republic and comparing the conditions that exist at our Declaration of Independence with…

  about Rage of the Republic · at 9:35

• There is a never- ending list of reasons that gold has risen over 700% in the last 20 years. And a never- ending list of reasons smart Americans diversify a portion of their…

  about Birch Gold Group · at 11:10

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

• Don Lemon — Person · Referenced subject (legal case defendant) · 8 mentions · first at 0:00
  Central figure in the discussion about whether his conduct in a church was protected journalism or unlawful protest activity under federal civil-rights statutes and trespass principles.
• Mandy & Ralph Ellison — Person · Referenced public official (legal interpreter/criticized authority) · 1 mention · first at 1:02
  Cited as having publicly interpreted the FACE Act narrowly regarding places of worship; the speakers dispute his interpretation and contrast it with his broader approach in pro-life cases.

Books & papers

• Rage of the Republic — Book · Referenced work · 2 mentions · first at 1:44
  Cited as a source discussing the role of the press in mobocracy and historical parallels to current journalistic advocacy.

Sponsors

• Birch Gold Group — Company · Sponsor · 1 mention · first at 11:22
  Promoted as a service for diversifying savings into precious metals, especially gold, during economic uncertainty.

Full transcript with timestamps

0:00 Let's talk about the Don Lemon case. I think you and I may disagree on this one. Um, I believe that they were right to charge him because he did go into a church, he did behave more as protester than journalist, but I think even as a journalist, he is exposed to liability because while he could have gone into some public venue with his microphone, um, he didn't. He went into private property, which a church is. He was told specifically by the pastor to leave, which he then didn't. And unfortunately for Don Lemon, there is a right by churchgoers to be left alone. And so, while this these antics might have flown had he been on truly public property, um they're not going to fly here thanks to the Face Act and the Clan Act, which protects against conspiracies that violate somebody else's rights and people's right to observe their faith, is pretty well established. So that's why I think Don Lemon's in a lot of

0:55 trouble whether they think he was acting as a journalist or not. Do you disagree with me?

0:59 Well, I agree with much of that. I obviously disagree with Attorney General Ellison uh who told the the people of Minnesota that the Face Act doesn't apply to places of worship. They It only applies to abortion clinics, which is just completely untrue. Uh it most certainly does apply in these circumstances. I my only issue with the Don Lemon arrest is I think that courts are very likely to view him as engaged in a protected journalistic exercise. That doesn't necessarily mean it will be a complete defense. We're going to have to see specifically what the conduct alleged would be to support the indictment. Lemon is an example. I actually talk about this in Rage of the Republic. They talk about the press and the the the role of the press in what I call mobocracy. You know that we saw this with the French Revolution. We see it today where you have journalists that blur the line between press and

2:01 advocates. And as you know, Megan, in J schools now around the country, journalism schools, there's a rejection of objectivity and neutrality in these J schools. And so people like Lemon are sort of the face of that movement that uh good journalists are advocates. Well, that makes this a much more difficult question as you pointed out. Was he there as a journalist or as an advocate? And so Lemon is going to force that issue. It's just that most judges will tend to run home on uh this first amendment issue. They will view this as a journalistic exercise. Now on the last point I want to note that you said well he was told to leave and that makes this trespass that is true. Uh there was an important case uh that was handed down by the fourth circuit which um which held exactly that that journalists do not have the right to uh to um to trespass.

3:03 And the problem is that those crimes are large often prosecuted by the state. Uh but it's clear,

3:11 yeah, trespass is a state, right? So it's clear the governor and the attorney general have no interest in prosecuting people on the left like Don Lemon.

3:20 But professor, could could I live with stick with the Face Act for now? Do you really think that I could go in there with a group of protesters who were trying to block women from getting an abortion? They stormed the abortion clinic. They had chains. since they chained themselves in front of the surgical doors so that no woman could cross. And I'm with them and I too am making it difficult just by my mere presence for somebody to walk in and try to get an abortion. Megan Kelly's there. She's got a camera on me. I This is uncomfortable that I would not be charged just because I I'm a journalist and I have a right to report. I My rights don't give me access everywhere.

3:58 I can't go into somebody's surgery or their abortion clinic and that's written right into the face act. And unfortunately for Don Lemon, he did the equivalent of that by going into a church. Well, the the fascinating thing on that point, which is a an excellent analogy, is that Ellison himself has interpreted the face act when it comes to prolife defendants as being unbelievably broad. Uh that he has almost anything to be obstruction. So if you apply the Allison approach then you're absolutely absolutely right. It's a really difficult question for a lot of of courts of when you cross that line as as a journalist. And you know I my only point is that I think in the end he's going to have the advantage uh with these with these courts. But, you know, we haven't even seen this uh unfold in terms of the indicted conduct and what will be presented at trial. I'm just simply saying that I think that the odds

4:58 probably favor him. They do not favor, in my view, the others who have been charged.

5:05 Um, I do think I I do think that he's going to play that card, but I don't think it's going to be upheld unless there's partisanship. Because I'll I'll just play you this one sound. We've been covering it very closely and the indictment does incite a lot of this terrible behavior. But just let me play one sound bite for you, professor, of him at the event in the church and you tell me whether this sounds like journalist or protester. Here it is.

5:28 This is the beginning of what's going to happen here. When you violate people's due process, when you pull people off the street, you start dragging them and hurting them and um and not abiding by the Constitution. When you start doing all of that, people get upset and angry. And if you remember what the civil rights movement was about, the civil rights movement was about these very kinds of protests. And for some reason in our modern era, people think that in order to have protest, you got to be, you know, cordoned off to a certain area and uh, you know, what time you can protest.

6:06 There's nothing in the Constitution that tells you what time you can protest. You can protest at any time. That's the whole point of it is to disrupt, is to make uncomfortable. And that's what they're doing. And that's what I believe when I say everyone has to be willing to sacrifice something, you have to make people uncomfortable in these times. If you see how uncomfortable people uncomfortably harsh people are being treated on the streets, you have to be willing to go into places and disrupt and make people uncomfortable. That is what this country is about.

6:41 Yeah, it's an extraordinary I'm so glad you you did show that passage. This is a guy who just last night got a standing ovation uh in an awards ceremony by uh folks in Hollywood. What they don't show, by the way, when he says that this is supposed to make people uncomfortable is the child being cradled by his father because he's terrified uh because he came there to a church service and found himself in the middle of a uh what seemed to be a building riot. And you also do I think that your point is a good one, Megan, that it is hard to see that as journalism. It seems to me to be advocacy, but this is something that the courts are really struggling with in good faith. One of the things we've seen from the left in a lot of these protests has been that Antifa and other groups have dawned press uh um vests and by simply pulling out their phones they say that we're press. Uh you also saw this

7:35 sort of use of legal observer status. You know uh Renee Good said that she was a legal observer before that shooting. I've represented legal observers in courts in protest cases. That was not a legal observer. that was a participant. She was actively blocking ICE. And so we're going to have to to the court's going to have to sort of weed through this to try to draw some lines here. But Don Lemonid may succeed in forcing this issue. As as J schools crank out more uh activist journalists, courts are going to have to make a decision of when you become more of an activist than a journalist.

8:15 I mean, I I think it's interesting because we should just know what he was there doing, but I don't think I my own personal opinion and my legal opinion is it doesn't matter. The Face Act does not have an exception for a journalist. If I, as a journalist, go into an abortion clinic with my mic and my camera, I am 100% going to get arrested under a Democrat administration anyway, for a for a Face Act violation. And same as Don Lemon got arrested for going into that church, he conspired. That's the other thing. He's been charged with conspiracy against rights, which is a separate claim. And he did conspire with them. He knew in advance. He worked with the leader of the whole thing. He kissed her on the cheek. He gave coffee and donuts to the people beforehand to get them psyched up. He knew where they were going. He was there from the beginning.

8:56 He also disrupted the mass, the service. He got in the face of the pastor. The pastor didn't want to be talking to him and told him to leave. He refused. He continued sticking his mic in the faces of the congregants. After the pastor had told him to get out, he knew he wasn't wanted. He stayed anyway. He defended the protest. He watched traumatized children and said trauma is part of it. That's all part of it. And uh to me, there's just no question that just that he had a microphone is not going to save him for that. That's it's a violation against rights and journalists have to obey the law just the same as anybody else does. Um that we don't have some magical shield against the law by the fact that we have press passes.

9:35 Well, I think that's the sort of fascinating thing for me. um you know with rage of the republic and comparing the conditions that exist at our at our uh Declaration of Independence with today. Many of those jackabins, those people that guillotine so many of their fellow citizens were journalists and much like today they decided that they were advocate journalists and eventually they became little tyrants uh because they untethered themselves from uh their professional role. We're seeing that same thing happen today. Uh and it's something that we need to address. You know, where does this take us? Where does all this rage take us? You know, that that's sort of the point of the book. It's very easy to start a revolution. It's harder to end one. And in that sense, you know, the book talks about sort of two figures. You know, Payne, who was the righteous rage of a revolution, he knew what it took to

10:32 bring a people to revolution. and James Madison who was sort of the pious logic of this republic. He knew what it would take to make a revolution into a republic and we that's why a lot of these principles we have to sort of remember where we came from and how we got here because people like Don Lemon are cut from the same bolt as many of these early advocates who themselves became sort of petty tyrants.

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Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "The Legal Questions About Don Lemon's Claim of "Journalism" After Arrest, with Jonathan Turley"?

Megyn Kelly (Guest), Jonathan Turley (Guest).

What is "The Legal Questions About Don Lemon's Claim of "Journalism" After Arrest, with Jonathan Turley" about?

The discussion centers on Don Lemon's recent arrest, examining whether his actions constituted journalism or protest, particularly in relation to entering a church without permission. Legal experts highlight the implications of the Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances (FACE) Act and the challenges Lemon may face due to the nature of his conduct, emphasizing the ongoing debate about the evolving…

What is mentioned in this Megyn Kelly episode?

4 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Don Lemon, Rage of the Republic, Mandy & Ralph Ellison. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "The Legal Questions About Don Lemon's Claim of "Journalism" After Arrest, with Jonathan Turley"?

The episode runs 12 min; the transcript is about 2,214 words in 20 timestamped sections.

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