Transcript

FURIOUS Sheriff BREAKS SILENCE After Trump’s ICE Murder | On Democracy

From MeidasTouch · Episode page · Watch on YouTube

· 37 min · 8,054 words · 78 timestamped sections

This is the full, timestamped transcript of "FURIOUS Sheriff BREAKS SILENCE After Trump’s ICE Murder | On Democracy", an episode of MeidasTouch published January 31, 2026 (37 min, about 8,054 words). It mentions 9 people, works and ideas, including Chris Swanson, Flint, Michigan, Democratic National Convention, Harvard, Iran.

What this episode is about

The main topic explores the distinction between military operations and law enforcement actions, particularly in the context of a controversial incident involving former President Trump and ICE. Key points include the implications of foreign interventions and the varying interpretations of what constitutes an act of war, highlighting inconsistencies in definitions and the current political climate surrounding law enforcement practices.

Key takeaways

  • In a world where 'law enforcement' meets military operations, definitions blur faster than a politician’s promise.
  • When nations invade, casualties count—unless you're the U.S. debating whether it's just a '4-hour operation'.
  • With oil at stake, is the 'war on drugs' just a misnamed grab for Venezuelan resources?
  • Trust between leaders and citizens dwindles when military actions hinge on vague drug trafficking allegations.
  • If you can declare war over a 'successful operation', does diplomacy become just a glorified law enforcement stunt?

Who speaks in this episode?

What is discussed, and when

  1. – 5:00: Gwen De Marco, Iran, Pete Hegseth, Jeffrey – Pagano, Joe
  2. – 10:00: Chris Swanson, Flint, Michigan, Abu Ghraib, Pete Hegseth
  3. – 20:00: Democratic National Convention
  4. – 25:00: Democratic National Convention, Harvard
  5. – 30:00: Harvard
  6. – 35:00: Chris Swanson
  7. – 37:09: Chris Swanson

Notable quotes from "FURIOUS Sheriff BREAKS SILENCE After Trump’s ICE Murder | On Democracy"

  • It's a perfect military operation. Would that be an act of war? Of course it would be an act of war. I'm probably the most anti-war person in the Senate. And I would vote to declare war if someone invaded our country and took our president.
    about Gwen De Marco · at
  • Is it though? is it Joe? maybe it's something else. What do you think, Satchel? What do you think? Show that video.
    about Jeffrey – Pagano, Joe · at
  • Starting to take the oil. We're going to be heading that with the country and it's worked out really well. We're now sending actually a larger number of ships to Iran.
    about Iran · at
  • Outboard engines to invade the United States of America. My problem with this is simple. is the secretary of defense Pete Hegsath is still ordering our young men and women, our…
    about Pete Hegseth · at
  • So, Chris Swanson is the sheriff of Jese County, Michigan. and even more. He's a candidate for governor of Michigan right now. He's getting a lot of attention as these events unfold in Minnesota. This.
    about Chris Swanson · at
  • Yeah, Jennese County is the home of Flint, Michigan. Anywhere in the country, you mentioned Flint. we've had our struggles. We've had a breakdown in public trust water.
    about Flint, Michigan · at
  • Parties to think, Wait a second, maybe there is a right way to do it. when I was speaking at the DNC and I was asked to do that, they didn't ask me to be in uniform. I said…
    about Democratic National Convention · at
  • It's been modeled in 15 states. Harvard, your alma mater, did a study on it with Brown in Michigan. They studied for 18 months that when you educate people in jail and you give them a pathway, they.
    about Harvard · at

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

  • Chris Swanson — Person · Main guest · 3 mentions · first at
    Interview subject providing a law-enforcement perspective on federal actions, public trust, and how Democrats can criticize misconduct without being 'anti-police'; also discusses his Michigan governor run and policy ideas (e.g., jail education/recidivism reduction).
  • Pete Hegseth — Person · Referenced government official · 2 mentions · first at
    Cited by the host as 'Secretary of Defense' allegedly ordering lethal actions at sea under loose definitions; used to argue lack of transparency and accountability in use-of-force decisions.
  • Gwen De Marco — Person · Referenced politician (likely questioner in clip) · 2 mentions · first at
    Mentioned as having 'a great week' while arguing the operation was 'law enforcement' rather than war; functions as a foil for the host's critique of rhetorical justifications.
  • Jeffrey – Pagano, Joe — Person · Addressed participant / conversational addressee · 1 mention · first at
    Briefly addressed by the host while questioning the stated rationale ('drugs') for Venezuela-related actions; likely a co-host/producer or someone off-camera, but not clearly identified.

Companies & orgs

  • Harvard — Company · Referenced institution · 2 mentions · first at
    Mentioned in the context of a study conducted on the Ignite program in Flint, Michigan.

Places & events

  • Flint, Michigan — Place · Setting · 1 mention · first at
    Mentioned as the hometown of Sheriff Chris Swanson and the location of significant events like the water crisis.
  • Democratic National Convention — Event · Referenced event · 2 mentions · first at
    Mentioned in the context of Sheriff Chris Swanson's speech and his political campaign.
  • Iran — Place · Referenced location · 1 mention · first at
    Mentioned in the context of military and political discussions.
  • Abu Ghraib — Event · Referenced event · 1 mention · first at
    Mentioned in the context of discussing incidents that affect public trust in institutions.
    That's actually a good point because, we've had our incidents with our soldiers. We had, of course, Abu Grae and we had going back to my and there's a lot of things, but you're…

Full transcript with timestamps

So I would ask you if a foreign country bombed our air defense missiles, captured and removed our president and blockaded our country, would that be considered an act of war?

Well, I think your question is about the and I will acknowledge you've been very consistent on all these points the entire career. So um let me let me and no matter who the who's in charge. So I will point to two things. The first is it's hard for us to conceive that an operation that lasted about 4 and a half hours and was a law enforcement operation to capture someone we don't recognize as a head of state indicted in the United States wanted with a $50 million would be if it only took four hours to take our president. It's very short. Nobody dies on the other side.

Nobody dies on our side. It's perfect. Would it be an act of war? We just don't believe that this operation comes anywhere close to the constitutional definition of war.

But would it be an act of war if someone did it to us? Nobody dies. Few casualties. They're in and out. Boom. It's a perfect military operation. Would that be an act of war? Of course it would be an act of war. I'm probably the most anti-war person in the Senate. And I would vote to declare war if someone invaded our country and took our president.

This is Oh, Marco had a great week. Um, stumbling around. You know, look guys, it was a law enforcement operation. Sure. Navy Seals went in and task force 160 and we killed 88 people in Venezuela. Uh but in the end it was a law enforcement operation. That's that's what you want. And if somebody did to us well that would be a war. This is the modern conversation we're having. Okay. As the Secretary of State appears before the Senate. And as I'm opening this and you'll understand why with this is we talk about law enforcement and what is law enforcement in the in the under the Trump administration and what does law enforcement look like because boy there's some weird definitions going on right now. And then this law enforcement operation remember the whole point of this law enforcement operation was to arrest the narot terrorist the narot trafficker the narco state leader of Venezuela Nicholas Murdo. Obviously,

it's all about the drugs, right? It's drugs. Is it though? I mean, is it Joe? I mean, maybe it's something else. What do you think, Satchel? What do you think? Show that video.

Simple yes or no question. Were you with President Trump during any of those conversations he had with with people with oil interests in Venezuela about the possibility of deposing Maduro?

That that's not a simple yes or no question. Did the president as he said publicly informed them about the US operations?

I think those all of those executives learned about this operation the same time everybody else did.

Well, President Trump has said the opposite in public. No, no, no. Yes, he has. I mean, he he said it. I think it was aboard Air Force One or an airplane.

Spoken with the oil companies to Venezuela speech and before the operation took place. Yes, she'll maybe

before and after. So, don't believe your eyes. Trump never Trump never said that. Trump never said he taught the oil companies. It was It's just not It's drugs, right? It's drugs. It's obviously about drugs. Like just today, here's Trump talk about the drugs. Drugs.

We're getting along very, very well. And we're inviting countries of the world very shortly. They're going to be starting to take the oil. We're going to be heading that with the country and it's worked out really well. We're now sending uh actually a larger number of ships to Iran. Drugs. It's oil. No, drugs. It's always about the drugs. Now, it's easy to laugh about this, right? I mean, it's it's just so ply ridiculous. We also know that one of Trump's biggest donors gave him money and then now got $6 million worth of oil from Venezuela immediately.

We know that when Chevron was sold That was just a few weeks before. Oh, what is We decide to take the oil. Okay, oil. But here's the problem I have because you guys know my background. You see it over my shoulder every time I'm on the show. That's a United State that's a UH60 Blackhawk. Why? I flew those in combat. Okay, I did 22 years in the Army. It's It's easy to laugh about these kind of things. It was never about drugs. But here's the problem I have. This is still happening. This is a week ago. satchel.

There's no sound, but you get the picture. We blew up another boat. By the journalist count, that's 126 people have been killed as US military forces blow up boats randomly around the Pacific and the Caribbean because they're narco terrorists is what we're told. Originally, we were told this was the reason we were going into Venezuela because there are Venezuelan boats who are somehow going 2,000 miles with outboard engines to invade the United States of America. My problem with this is simple. is the secretary of defense Pete Hegsath is still ordering our young men and women, our soldiers, our service members, our Navy sailors to kill people in the in the ocean with only the loosest of definitions and no background and no information as why they're doing it except to say we're supposed to trust me, bro. Remember I always say you guys, trust me, bro, isn't the basis for anything in the United States

government. And I don't trust you, bro. I don't trust anyone. But we're asking our sons and daughters to murder people in the open ocean over drug boats, which may or may not be drug boats. And the Trinidad, we just found out this week that some people from Trinidad are suing the United States Department of Defense and others for for killing their family members. No, I did it because they killed their family members. And we don't actually know for sure. There's been no proof given really that these are drug boats or drug dealers or even the actual drug dealers because we also know they hold people hostage or they hire people to run these boats and may not even be anyone associated with the drug cartels but we're killing them anyways.

That's the whole point I have. This isn't funny. 88 people supposedly die in Venezuela. Our own service members were injured and taken to uh taken to the hospital back at Fort at Fort Sam Houston. Now we got sa sailors and others out there blowing up people and we know nothing about it. Meanwhile, all Trump talks about is selling oil because that's the real thing. So that takes us the idea, what is law enforcement of the Trump administration, which as you guys know has gotten real freaking blurry in Minneapolis, St. Paul and all of Minnesota and now Maine and other places. So as always, I have the perfect guest because that's what I do. And all times just like this one, they fall into my lap because I am luckiest guy on earth. So, we have got a great conversation to have with a guy who really knows what he's talking about and has stepped forward to take take take a higher step in government and so we're

thrilled to have a great show ahead of you. I am Fred Wellman. This is on democracy FP Wellman every Friday night the touch network. I hope a lot of you are here. I love seeing you guys every Friday night. Let's get on the show. satchel. Hit it.

Uh, welcome bugalog. I am still Fred Wellman as I was 15 20 seconds ago. It is so great to be here on a Friday night with you guys. I appreciate your time. I appreciate listening to me open talk about these things. You can understand my frustration as we see leadership of our country going forward, going publicly and saying that they're conducting law enforcement operations. And what we've seen is some really heinous stuff. I'm not going to show videos of it because you guys have seen me already. I've talked about for a couple weeks now how angry I am, how frustrated I am with the law enforcement operations, allegedly the alleged law enforcement operations being incred. So, I've got the perfect guest as I mentioned and this is where we're lucky.

So, Chris Swanson is the sheriff of Jese County, Michigan. and even more. He's a candidate for governor of Michigan right now. He's getting a lot of attention as these events unfold in Minnesota. This cander and his perspective as a professional law enforcement officer with 30 years of public service. So, let's bring let's bring Chris on the show. Let's talk. Chris, man, good to see you, brother. Welcome.

Good to see you, Ranger. Oh, there you go. Yeah, I I love hearing that. I don't get that much. So, good to see you, sir. Man, welcome to the show. you've had uh you've been out there talk about this and look I I appreciate you doing this and of course

I guess we'll just start with this. I mean you you've been in law enforcement and and you've been an EMT. I mean you've been a public service first responder in every way possible right there in your hometown right there in Jese County for all these years. Are you let's just start I mean are you shocked what you're seeing unfold in Minnesota and across I mean does it shock you as a professional law enforcement officer? Yeah, I mean, you know, Jennese County is the home of Flint, Michigan. Anywhere in the country, you mentioned Flint. You know, we've had our struggles. We we've had uh a breakdown in public trust water crisis and General Motors that fled and we have poverty and brokenness. I've been doing this 33 years. And every day we try to build public trust and faith in law enforcement. And it's the only profession, Fred, that one act of another officer anywhere in the country, within three minutes, it's across the

country. And now we're all painted with that brush. It doesn't matter if it's federal, state, county, and that's what we see right now. It's a blurred line.

Yeah, that really makes a lot of sense. I'm a soldier, right? And so, and as as you were saying that I was like, God, that's actually a good point because, you know, we've had our incidents with our soldiers. We had, of course, Abu Grae and we had going back to my and there's a lot of things, but you're right. It doesn't it doesn't automatically kind of curse all of us. It doesn't make pain all of us, but a lot of it does have that and and it's tough, especially someone who is profession and I I'm very blessed. have a lot of friends in law enforcement.

Heck, my own son was a a military police officer at Fort Bragg, North Carolina where he was on the SWAT team there. It's the closest I got to law enforcement, my family, but nonetheless. And and I'm I have talked to a lot of these guys and a lot of them are kind of they're shocked because it does bother them because they know what I joke a lot. You don't you don't have to watch, you know, Law and Order every week to know how these things should be going. We've all we've all how that's how all of us know about our rights. But what struck me, for example, about the Renee Good shooting. From the very first second, the first time I saw the video, I was shocked, of course, by the shooting, the way he pulled away. And there there's always going to be a blurred line of she running him over, was she not? You did a great video on that, which I saw. I appreciate it. But for me, it's the aftermath. It's it's

when he shoots her car. Of course, why why you guys don't shoot people driving in cars because the car crashes into things, right? He walks walks walks over to the car. He obviously sees her bleeding out because she was shot in the head. He turns around, waves at his fellow agents, and gets in a car and has left the scene within a minute and a half. I mean, that shocked me. Am I crazy to be shocked by that part of it?

No. I mean, the video that I did spoke what the entire American society was watching. You can't tell people what they're not seeing. You know, when I saw that shooting, I'm thinking, "All right." And and trust me, that video and that shooting, it divided law enforcement because it became a partisan issue, not a real true assessment of the shooting. And I talked to people who did not agree with me that wear a badge. And I said, "Okay, you're the sergeant going to a shooting." And your officer, your deputy says, "Hey, I just got into a shooting and we killed somebody." All right, come tell me the details. And they said is a 37year-old unarmed female. She was surrounded by people, blown whistles. She was engaged to one officer this way. I was in front of the car. She turned the wheel to the right and in less than 2 miles an hour we shot her three times twice through the side window. It when you put it in

that perspective, I mean that alone is troubling. And then what you said is key. We are trained. I've been a medic since I was 20. Even after a shooting, you render aid. That's the humane thing to do. That's that's leadership. And none of that happened. In fact, what I heard was somebody got on the phone and says, "Call 911." That's not who we are. No. And that's what that's what shocks me. I mean, it it is not who you are. It's not who any professional law enforcement is. And the same thing with the Alex Patty shooting, of course, right? And things got out of hand quickly. You know, they're going to argue. Now, we got the video of him breaking the tail light. Obviously, vandalism is a a capital crime now. But, you know, it is gotten such a blurred line and the mass spin. I mean, that was the next piece of it. Within seconds of the shooting, we had leadership of that agency, of the TH, even the president

himself and Steven Miller on TV saying he was a domestic terrorist assassin. That was my favorite one that they call him that. And I've been saying a lot. Maybe I'm crazy. You're a sheriff. It's like I said, you know, I'm a professional communications guy. I was I was a I was a comms guy for the army for God's sake in combat. And what I would have said to the media was obviously there's confusing situation on the ground. We're horrified at the loss of any life in America. and we're going to conduct an infir our condolences to the family and we will conduct a full investigation.

That's right. And they immediately went to he was he's the bad guy and it was they they they already clear themselves. Right. I mean it's it's every aspect of this that bothers me.

Yeah. And you bring up a great point about what happened a week before or in the first case what happened six months ago. Law enforcement has to separate and be objective with what's presented right there. That's the force continuum. It didn't matter what happened an hour ago. It didn't have matter what happened 15 seconds ago. The force continuum goes up as the aggression goes up and it goes down as aggression goes down. And we control that. If we shot and killed everybody who put us in a dangerous situation in an entire career, we'd have hundreds of people dead. So you can't say they that person was in danger. If that person was in danger, and we can all see this, the wheels turn to the right. It completely just denies that philosophy. And then two shots through the side window. You're not even the path of the car. Going back to the next one, when you see the immediate response, what you just said is the

appropriate response. There's been a there's been a tragedy. We are getting the details. We will come out with what's right. We will come out with what you can what you can trust. But right now, we're managing the scene. We'll do another update in an hour. But when you completely draw the line and say, "This is what's happening. We've done our investigation the last five minutes." You destroy public trust. That doesn't help keep communities safe. And it certainly doesn't keep people trusting in law enforcement because the badge means the badge of law enforcement, not just oh that's the state or that's the feds. No, it actually has a trickle down effect to everybody who wears the badge and that's the messaging and now we have a division among that.

Yeah. Yeah. And it's it's horrible. I think for me too and I really I was dying to talk to you about this is you know there's been a lot of talk about the 47 days of training for ICE. And by the way, I keep pointing out to folks, ICE was the Renee Good shooting, but it was CBP that killed Alex Prey. I mean, a lot of people want to say ICE, ICE, ICE, but it's a whole DHS and it goes to that allegedly the woman, the gentleman who shot or the man, I'm not going to say gentlemen, that's a completely appropriate ter. The agent that shot Renee Good had 10 years of law enforcement experience plus the army.

We're hearing the guy that shot uh uh Alex Prey had six years of experience in the agency. again, these aren't rookies, right? And for me as a soldier, that tells me there's a cultural problem in the organization, right? That that the senior agents, the guys who train those rookies are acting with impunity. They're acting this way. It feels like we've got a huge cultural problem in these federal agencies that has to be addressed and it's being ignored, isn't it?

Well, I think it's also important to go a little bit deeper than that. What did these individuals do for the last 10 years? What have they been doing in the last six years? Have they been battle tested? Have they been in very high stress situations? I was looking at some of the footage from Saturday and I saw an agent that said Federal Bureau of Prisons. This this individual is going to to guard prisoners. How long has it gone from there to going into a high combat tactical situation? And you know this from being a ranger, you count on the person next to you, the person in front of you, and the person behind you to make a solid decision because one decision has a a a trickle down. as I said before, has a a a pathway that other people are going to respond to.

When you look at people that are in those situations, there's such uh intensity that you need to count on that everybody's been trained and has experience to do what they need to do to keep everybody safe, including the cops. Like, we are in the business of making order out of chaos. So, when I see those protests, I'm like, that's what we do. When I see death and we have to respond, that's what we do. When I see tragedy and brokenness, that's what we do. This is a profession that we have to do the right thing all the time. And when you pull that trigger, what comes out of the pipe better be right. You can't just think that it's right. You better be right. We learned that in 2020 in George Floyd. The expectation of law enforcement accelerated to the highest level since Rodney King. We want more professional policing. Not defund the police. That that was an ignorant statement. We want better police, but we

want police that are trained. And you know what? They want us to train in more deescalation, mental health, how to communicate with the with the uh the the community that you serve. These are things that build public trust. But what we're seeing here now, Fred, is a destruction of that. And I said this in my video. I said this as an op-ed. How for 33 years, I personally worked with FBI, DEA, ATF, Secret Service, going after the worst of the worst. We did warrant sweeps. We did tactical operations. We did longterm investigations. We arrested people. We did it safe. We did it professional.

Nobody protested. They actually thanked taking dangerous people off. How can we do that? But yet this type of policing has got the entire country spun up because it's not the right way. It's not sustainable.

You can't and you can't blame the protesters or the people who are mad as they want to like that. We're causing this. We're not causing this. People are angry and they're scared. They're reasonably scared. I mean, when when ice ages go to a Mexican restaurant, eat lunch, and then come back half an hour and arrest all the staff, at some point, you've got to say, "What are we doing here? Where are the cool or little Liam?" I did a whole I did a whole opening last week on the on Young Liam, Ramos, who's now we've reports that he's he's not eating. He's in a detention center away from his mother. His mother's pregnant. She's in the hospital because she's so stressed out. What does that gain us as a nation? You know, and we could argue all day about what's a misdemeanor or not. Now, another aspect of this thing, and it does transition as us to what you're doing today, too, in addition to being an elected sheriff.

You are running for governor, but you know, Democrats, how do you think Democrats should approach this? I mean, it's clear that these are not actions by professional and I I say that very clearly and I say it a lot, professional law enforcement like my good friends here in St. Louis County police who I'm very blessed to know. These are professional law enforceed as anti- police. Right. Right. Yeah, because you know, so by by our political opponents, you know, where do you think as as person who's kind of straddling both lines right now? Um, where's the path for like a Democrat? How do we how do we point out this is inappropriate without coming across as being anti police in general?

Well, first of all, no party owns law enforcement, but Democrats didn't do a good job by by explaining that. They actually gave it up. And when I saw what happened in 2020, I'm like, Chovin is not who I am. It's not who who I serve with. in in Flint when we walked on May 30th, 2020, I couldn't bring George Floyd back from the dead. I couldn't I couldn't heal race relations that have been broken down since the 60s. But what I could do as the sheriff is say, "Hey, I'm going to listen to you." They said, "Walk with us." I said, "We're going to walk." That was not a political decision. That was a leadership decision. And when you have a an ability in a in a position of influence to show the right way to do things, it starts to get a a conversation going between parties to think, "Wait a second, maybe there is a right way to do it." You know, when I was speaking at the DNC and I was asked to do that, they didn't ask

me to be in uniform. I said, I'm going to do it on one condition that I do it in full uniform. I'm proud to be a police officer. My dad and my grandfather are both Detroit cops. My dad was in the 67 riots. So, when you look at law enforcement, we want professional law enforcement. But here's the trick. People who criticize law enforcement sometimes, especially with people in law enforcement, they will think that you don't support them by being critical. No. No. By being critical in firing people that are not part of our profession, it only makes our profession better. It sharpens the sword. And so it's a it's it can't be a political argument. I've taken a lot of heat with calling out the shootings.

I've done that because somebody has to do that. And there's no better place to do it now than in a political spectrum because it starts to get people to talk that wait a second, they're not the party of anti police because this guy's running as the sheriff and they're not the party of backing everything because even they know that that's wrong. There's a better way to do it. So, I think the time is right. The office of governors, we talked offline, is exactly the same thing as I do as a sheriff of a big county, the fifth largest in the state of Michigan. Yeah. Enforce laws, maintain order. That's what the governor does. And I take a line out of Abraham Lincoln and a fist of iron and a hand of velvet. People respect that. And they're looking for leadership.

Yeah. Yeah. And and and let's turn to that. I mean, you are that's it is a time for that. It is a time for us to understand. I saw your speech at the DNC. I was up in the rafters with the creators there. Yeah, of thin oxygen. It was a great speech. Uh, you know, and and now you're running for governor. I mean, what what drove you to run for governor, right, in this moment? What what got you out of the sheriff's? Like you said, you've been law enforcement for 33 years, a first responder. Why step up for governor?

Well, on top of that, I mean, I think it's fair for your your listeners and your viewers to know that I'm just not onedimensional. Even though I work in a big county, and I'm I'm the only sheriff that's gone from deputy to sheriff since 1836. Everybody came from the outside. So, I I understand culture and because I'm from Flint, you know, and I'm the emergency manager, we dealt with the water crisis. We dealt with COVID. I'm feeding people in the streets through the back of patrol cars, but we've also done some crazy things that have changed the way we've done business through Ignite, inmate growth naturally, intentionally through education. We've broken the breakdown of inmates that are reoffending decades after decades.

Ignite is the educational model that has completely transformed law enforcement. It's been modeled in 15 states. Harvard, your alma mater, did a study on it with Brown in Michigan. They studied for 18 months that when you educate people in jail and you give them a pathway, they don't reaffend, they don't read. They don't have the uh the generational incarceration. It's modeled in 15 states, 40 sheriff's offices, human trafficking, ghost, which is our global human oppression strike team. We've arrested 250 predators since 2018. We we attack the dragon, but at the same time, we've got a heart. Now, what I said offline to you is preparation and opportunity. When those things s when those things intersect, that's success.

I've been on faculty at the University of Michigan teaching for 28 years in public health. My wife and I have been business owners since she met me and since I bought my first pony when I was nine. When you talk about people that are prepared for political office, I want somebody who's been battle tested. I want somebody who doesn't do this, but you can look and say, "Wait, they they've got results. They've got the stripes. They know what's what they can do. I make order out of chaos." I have no interest in any other political position other than the governor of the state of Michigan. It's an executive role that makes sense for me to use the gifts I've been given to influence 10 million people in a way that will set historic momentum. That's why

Yeah. And it is a tough time. I mean I mean you you as I love I'm so glad you brought up all these other things. It's funny people either say I'm a veteran or podcaster. Well, I've done some other stuff. Uh you know some other stuff. Yeah, I got a couple other things. But having said that, there really are issues beyond our law. This moment is calling for leadership. I mean, we are, as I've a statistic that I'm obsessed with, and I'm sure my my followers are sick of hearing is that 67% of Americans are living paycheck to paycheck right now. That that means that means that's that crosses every of our traditional middle class, upper class, lowerass crap. That that means people in nice neighborhoods like ours are struggling.

They're one paycheck away. They're one cancer diagnosis. They're one you know, they're one divorce away from losing it all. And and and you're right, in a gig economy where you can't get healthcare. I mean, people really are struggle right now and they need help and they need help at the state. They need help at the federal level. I mean, it that's one of your priorities, isn't this this idea that we have to work more than 40 hours a week to make ends meet that we have to, you know, we have to sell our souls almost to make ends meet now, don't we?

You know, and that's everybody's individual stories. When you go home at night, you take off the clown mask and your family's there and then reality hits. You go get the mail, you're like, "Dang." And then all of a sudden you text at 9:00 at night, somebody wants to give you a heads up. Or your kid comes home and says, "Hey, I need this bill paid." That's when you lose sleep at night. And that's when you go to bed at 10, you wake up at 2:35 and you wonder, "Is anybody else feeling this?" That's reality. And so, to your point, people want to believe in a leader that can help them. So, as a governor, this is the thing. I can't control the price of soybeans, but I can try to figure out a way to save you two, threeund, 400 bucks a month. And if we did it over 12 months, that's five, $6,000 a year, perhaps. How do we do that? Reduce cost that the states are pulling from you.

Maybe limit the amount of state income tax that people are paying under $30,000 a year if you're making as a single mom, a student, a widow, a retiree. But how do we give some leverage? And where's that money come from? not raising taxes, but building out an effective, efficient plan of people's tax dollars going to work in Michigan. Fred, it's an 81 billion dollar budget. You got money going everywhere. How how do we pull that? Here's a perfect example. I told you about Ignite, correct?

Your alma moater did one of the studies. It reduces crime. So, in the jail, just in Genese County, this is how we're going to do one of those things. I have a hundred less inmates than I did two years ago. Harvard says it saves $7,200 per inmate because they don't come back to jail. So I just saved Jennese County Flint threequarters of a million. If that reduces crime by 23%, let's just go an even 20 and the MBOC that can that the the budget the state spends to house people is $2.2 billion. If we were to pledge a a real path to reduce that by 20%, you could repurpose that money into things that you're talking about, making people's lives better, cutting down gas tax, paying for things that we have to raise taxes for without raising them.

That's the stuff that makes sense to people and they feel a little relief. They're going to feel a bit more inspired. They're going to feel like they can work more. But right now, everybody's walking in mud,

right? And and they're not getting ahead. It's that and and and the easy and they're not easy answers. I think I think what you said was very key. And what I like here, especially when we talk about Ignite, that you you recognize we you've been in this you've been in law enforcement for 33 years. You've been you've been in business. These aren't they're not clippable solutions per se. It's not the next election solutions. And something I say a lot in my other job is that, you know, we need people to we need to elect people who are willing to do really hard things and may not get reelected for it, right? That that it's it's it's results that'll be four to six years from now and not necessarily

next year's election, right? and and and have the courage to do that uh because it is risky nowadays. You have to show results. So, you do have to have a program where you show immediate impact for folks, but also that you're going to do things that are long-term impact that reduce cost and reduce efficient and and by the way improve I think about crime a lot and going circling back to the initial topic here is it isn't just more police, right? It is it is better trampolines, but it is ignite. It is lifting people out of poverty because the fact is crime is a symptom of poverty. Crime is a symptom of despair.

All right. I love that you mentioned briefly a mental health care for our police officer, but mental health care for all Americans. Despair leads to crime. Despair leads to violence. Um, those are the kind of things you have to do as a governor, aren't they?

Yeah. And I'm going to tell you this, too. I I'm a different cat. That's why I'm a different

I don't get that at all. Really? That's what people That's what people are looking for. So, here's a quick example. I got appointed to sheriff a year before I was elected. I took the last year of my predecessor. So the whole George Floyd protest and launching Ignite, I wasn't even elected sheriff. COVID wasn't even elected sheriff because I do things that make sense and as long as 51% of the people like it, then I'm going to be reelected or I'm going to be elected in the first place. I don't let that be my driving force because then your heart's not pure, your intentions are not pure, and people can see right through it. And then what you did, just like policing, you just cast another dark brush over all the politicians. What I did do was the right thing. So in my first election in 2020, a 30% crossover vote in 2024, a 30% crossover where Republicans and independents are going, I may not like

their party because they got 26% favorability, but I like what Swanson's doing. I'm going to vote for him. That's how you start building trust back to the people is they want to see actions. They don't want to just hear what you're going to do. And if you make a mistake, own up to it, move on, and learn from it. That's restoring faith and trust in politics.

Yeah, that has been. And going back to the very beginning of this conversation, talking about Alex Prey, talking about Renee Good and and I learned this working in Republican politics for a while. Well, I should say people who are Republicans who were in politics. I worked for some folks, famous people. And the frustration I always had was there's this mindset for so many in especially in the Republican side. Never admit you're wrong. Never make you made a mistake. Never apologize. Ever ever ever attack. And that's not one. I think people like us who serve the country in a different way or serve our community, we recognize that we're going to make mistakes, especially in a business as deadly as serving as military with guns or police with guns. I mean, we're in a business where, like you said, a split second makes you just it is it is good to have people who are willing to say, "Look, I

screwed that up. I'm willing to fix that. I let's move forward. Here's here's the corrections I made." But you come in with a plan to fix it, isn't it? It's like we don't hear that enough in politics, do we, Chris? We don't hear it enough from even any parties. a politician want to say, "You know what? Yeah, that was bad. I screwed that up."

Yeah. Let me just say this, that that's not weakness, that's strength. Look at something. I can tell you this. Every big mass shooting, any event that we have, we go back and do a critical incident stress briefing. We do it after action. We just had this with the LDS church shooting on this September 28th. We had right in my backyard. I I grew up right down the road. The shooter I'd known since he was a baby, killed four people, shot nine others. I was right there with all the others with the FBI, state police. After all that, we had a natural action plan. Do you know what?

We found a lot of things we could have done different. And you know why we do that? To make it better for the next time. So when it comes into politics, I don't agree with that strategy. Deny, deny, deny, attack, attack, attack. That may work in a UFC ring, but it's not going to work trying to gain in people's hearts. You have to understand that you we don't know everything and nobody has it figured out on either side. But together, if if you can come together, find some common sense, some common ground, that's what the majority of America is looking for. You know, I mean, I understand holding your position, but you also got to have perspective. Perspective is saying, "Hey, Fred, tell me tell me about how you see this, not talking and listening.

That's what people respect." And and that's what allows me to connect to, you know, millions of people a month on my social media.

Yeah. Well, I love it. So the most important question I gota ask you since you're running for Congress. Where do people or sorry running for governor slipped

I will buy this you could you'll never have to ask that question about when you run for Congress you know.

Yeah. Here we go. Not going to do it. Yeah. So tell us where can they find where would the Midas might love to support our candidates that join us. Uh tell where can they find you brother. Where can they find? I think we've run some screens. Tell us where to find throw a couple bucks too.

Yeah I appreciate that. Swanson from Michigan.com and all my social media. you're going to be inspired by it. And like I said, if you like one moment that I've created some momentum, then that will be the movement. If you want to invest in the movement, this is the movement to invest in. And and I tell you, I always tell people, bet on this horse. You know, you have you have you have low risk and high reward. So that's where you can find and and and I I love the word inspiration because as a medic, when I could breathe for somebody, I could see life come back. and you know the policies that I have and the plan to make order out of chaos. You know on on podcasts like this it's hard to to lay out all the policies especially you know when you got sassel in California. But let me just tell you this we as a nation are looking for political leaders from the school boards to the county boards to the state level to the federal level.

The next pool of leadership is coming up the ranks. We've got to be able to find people that can settle this and and and have a direction that people can get behind. If we just want to win by 51% and call it a victory, that's not a victory. We've got to win for the American people and bring up a new generation of political leaders that are inspiring and that people look after and want to model. That's where I'm at.

I love it. Get to work. Get back to work. Got a lot of your time. I appreciate you, brother. Man, it was great hanging out with you. Thanks so much. I I obviously will be harassing you some more this this campaign. Keep an eye on you. Keep keep us informed and we'll definitely tell our followers how you

Thank you for your service to our country, my brother. 22 years is brother. Thanks, man. I appreciate that. I got I got the fake knees and everything. So,

all right, Brad. Good to thanks for joining us. Good luck, brother. You cheers. Man, I love these conversations. Uh yeah, you I was actually in the crowd at the DNC and I didn't mention the opening. I should have. That's a failure on my part. Once again, you know me, I'm always rushing around. Chris did a great job. Look up his speech at the DNC. It was really inspiring. I remember seeing him on the stage and uh looking sharp and and bringing the heat. And that's the thing. We need we inspiration. You know, it's funny. I I tell people when I run when people are running for office, I always tell them the same thing. Look, people aren't going to remember your words. probably they're not going to remember your 10 policy. This is the the bane of the existence of our Democratic politicians. You guys, the bane of Democratic politicians is here's my 10 policy points and everybody's asleep by the time you get done. Remember there we

need inspiration. We need leaders going to lead us because in the end that's the issue, isn't it? We want to look we want people are going to say, "All right, I got this. You follow me. There's a whole ass statue of Fort Benning, Georgia that says follow me." And and it means something. It means getting up. You've all watch people have watched Bander Burrs. You've seen you've seen the scene out after Baston when when he he comes in, he takes over the he takes over the company. He takes over easy company and says, "All right, let's go. Follow me."

And he runs through the fire. It's time for us to elect people are going to do that because we're in a moment in our country where people are being killed in the street by mass agents of the government. If you've ever need somebody who's not going to try and go at their position, who's not going to look for the the the poll tested answer, who's not going to say, "Well, I don't want to offend these people." Look, there's black and white in the world, folks, and it's okay to be black and white. And you might offend some people, but at least they'll respect you for telling the damn truth.

That's me. You guys know, if you watch my show, if you follow my other work, I tell it like it is. It makes some people uncomfortable, but we need leaders going to say, "No, this is what I stand for. These are the values that I was raised on. These are the values that I was trained on as a soldier, as a as a law enforcement professional. And I will not waver for those values for a political moment. And that means masked men covering their faces, uh, randomly spraying. Did you see the video of the guy macing people as they drove away?

Ming people standing on the side of the road as they drove away. You can't make believe that that's okay. So don't be a leader. Step up. Say, "No, this is wrong and they should be punished for that." The military has the UCMJ. Police law law enforcement has their regulations. That's what people are aching for. No, that's wrong. You will be punished for this behavior instead of covering up for it. So, it's a pleasure to hang out with Chris Swanson. It's a pleasure to hang out with people who have a like mine like my own of what is black and white and clear. And that's who you want to vote for, folks. And don't do this.

Well, there's these 19 issues I care about. He he only checks 15 and 19. Spare me that crap, okay? Let's start electing people who are going to listen and lead and actually hear what you need. So that's my my my saliloquy for the night. You heard that number, folks. 67% of Americans are living paycheck to paycheck. The people in your neighborhood, if not you, are living paycheck to paycheck. Let's focus on that. Let's get that done. Let's get people elected to care about us and not the billionaires because I don't know if you saw the headline. Bezos and Musk have increased their net worth by $250 billion this year while Americans are living paycheck to paycheck. So, let's let people like Chris Wson and others to these races.

With that, it's Friday night. I'm not going to take more of your time. Thanks for joining us. As you know, we're here every Friday night on Democracy FP Wellman at 7 p.m. Eastern right here in the Myorg. Find out where all of our stuff is and all the projects I'm doing at fpwwellman.substack.com. I'd love you to subscribe. It's completely free. You can't beat the price. It's completely free. I mean, that's that's a deal. As a deal, we give you a coupon. Get it for free. So, just go fpw.substack.com. It's a great way to keep track of everything we're doing both online and offline as well as all of our social media channels. Look folks, we are in a very critical moment in this country. It is the election year. If you're not getting in the fight now, you are messing up. You are messing up. So, with that, I'll see you next week. Thanks for joining us here on Democracy.

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "FURIOUS Sheriff BREAKS SILENCE After Trump’s ICE Murder | On Democracy"?

Fred Wellman (Host), Chris Swanson (Guest).

What is "FURIOUS Sheriff BREAKS SILENCE After Trump’s ICE Murder | On Democracy" about?

The main topic explores the distinction between military operations and law enforcement actions, particularly in the context of a controversial incident involving former President Trump and ICE. Key points include the implications of foreign interventions and the varying interpretations of what constitutes an act of war, highlighting inconsistencies in definitions and the current political…

What is mentioned in this MeidasTouch episode?

9 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Chris Swanson, Flint, Michigan, Democratic National Convention, Harvard, Iran, Abu Ghraib. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "FURIOUS Sheriff BREAKS SILENCE After Trump’s ICE Murder | On Democracy"?

The episode runs 37 min; the transcript is about 8,054 words in 78 timestamped sections.

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About this transcript: the episode's spoken words as captioned on YouTube, split into timestamped sections. Reclip.Me locates every person, work and idea in the text, keeps the time it is first named, and quotes the words around it verbatim. Last updated January 31, 2026.