Transcript

MATT BARNES & STEPHEN JACKSON on Fatherhood, Growth, and Life After the NBA | IMO

From Michelle Obama · Episode page · Watch on YouTube

· 1 h 18 min · 15,208 words · 135 timestamped sections

This is the full, timestamped transcript of "MATT BARNES & STEPHEN JACKSON on Fatherhood, Growth, and Life After the NBA | IMO", an episode of Michelle Obama published October 15, 2025 (1 h 18 min, about 15,208 words). It mentions 8 people, works and ideas, including NBA, All the Smoke, AAU, Sacramento, Kevin Johnson.

What this episode is about

Matt Barnes and Stephen Jackson discuss their experiences with fatherhood, the importance of parental respect, and their personal growth after retiring from the NBA, sharing insights on family dynamics and the challenges of raising multiple children. The conversation highlights the value of a supportive family environment and the role it plays in shaping their perspectives on parenting.

Key takeaways

  • Dedication thrives in silence; your mom's respect for your father teaches more than words ever could.
  • 14 seasons in the NBA? It's like finding a unicorn; few survive, fewer thrive.
  • AAU basketball: where talented kids go to showcase skills, but team play becomes a distant memory.
  • Rivian's high-tech car wash mode: because even your car deserves a spa day without accidental disasters.
  • In a world of individual stars, team play still wins—just ask any puzzled sports coach today.

Who speaks in this episode?

What is discussed, and when

  1. – 10:00: NBA, All the Smoke, AAU, Golden State Warriors
  2. – 20:00: Sacramento, All the Smoke
  3. – 30:00: Kevin Johnson, Sacramento, Indeed
  4. – 50:00: Acorns
  5. – 1:18:29: All the Smoke

Notable quotes from "MATT BARNES & STEPHEN JACKSON on Fatherhood, Growth, and Life After the NBA | IMO"

  • Most of the folks who are in the MBA are in there for a hot minute and are out.
    about NBA · at
  • Yeah, yeah, it just feels like AAU is just an industry.
    about AAU · at
  • And then we moved to Sacramento at about 1989.
    about Sacramento · at
  • Indeed, Career Scout can help you land your next role fast.
    about Indeed · at
  • Capitol and helped pass police brutality bills and helping. Kevin Johnson was a former NBA player who was the mayor of Sacramento, who kind of inspired me to think about possibly, I gave myself, I think at.
    about Kevin Johnson · at
  • Me from my time on Wall Street to today. And that's why I love Acorns, Acorns is a financial wellness app that makes it easy to start saving and investing for your future.
    about Acorns · at

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

  • Kevin Johnson — Person · Referenced example / inspiration for civic involvement · 2 mentions · first at
    Cited by Matt Barnes as an ex-NBA player turned Sacramento mayor who inspired Barnes’ interest in policy and potential future politics.

Companies & orgs

  • Golden State Warriors — Company · Affiliation · 1 mention · first at
    Mentioned as the team Matt Barnes ended his NBA career with.
    In with the 2017 championship with the Golden State Warriors in his final season.

Products & tech

  • All the Smoke — Product · Product focus · 4 mentions · first at
    Podcast co-hosted by Matt Barnes and Steven Jackson, discussed as their main project post-NBA.
    He is a proud father, the CEO of all the smoke production, the cohost of all the smoke and an investor slash advisor for several companies.

Concepts & topics

  • NBA — Concept · Core topic · 2 mentions · first at
    Central theme of the episode, discussing careers and experiences in the NBA.
  • AAU — Concept · Key argument · 1 mention · first at
    Discussed as a controversial aspect of youth basketball and its impact on players.

Places & events

  • Sacramento — Place · Setting · 5 mentions · first at
    Mentioned as part of Matt Barnes' upbringing and early life experiences.

Sponsors

  • Acorns — Company · Sponsor · 5 mentions · first at
    Featured as a sponsor of the podcast, promoting their financial wellness app.
  • Indeed — Company · Sponsor · 2 mentions · first at
    Featured as a sponsor of the podcast, promoting their job search tools.

Full transcript with timestamps

Your mom go to work at six in the morning, she get off at six and even you don't even see her when you get off from school. So I seen the dedication that she put, but she also never demeaned my father. Yeah, she never demeaning him in no type of way. He never spoke bad of him. So when I start having my own kids, you know, when I even got a lot of them, I got a lot of how many kids you got 17? OK, I don't have no 17 kids. Oh shit. I got five girls alone one out of marriage and I got two boys

This episode is brought to you by Rivian and KolaGuard. Michelle Obama. Hi Craig. How you feeling today? I feel terrific. Is that crochet? Um, do you, you would be better telling than I would. You like that? It's very, it's mesh. It's either mesh or. Very fancy with your little silver buttons. I tell people all the time the hardest part about this job is keeping up with your wardrobe. Well, that just won't happen. You should give up. I know, I know. I should start rerunning my outfits, I should. Oh, you can't do that.

Sorry, I won't allow it. But you look cute today. Thanks. I feel cute. What's new and exciting in the Robinson household? Uh, not much. We just got back from Orlando from a, a you extravaganza into the summer. I couldn't be more happy with the end of the summer, but we had fun. We had fun, the boys played well. Um, and it was extremely hot down there. Did they, did they win? They won enough games to be proud to, they won more than they lost. That's good. Did you rent a car? It wasn't a Rivian though Uh-oh. How's the Rivian?

It's, it's good. It's good our listeners know that we were gifted Rivians to, to test out and talk about, and, uh, it, it going well. You know, I found a new feature. Tell me because there's so many features. I finally took the car to go get washed. Tell me about that. And I was thinking, having the car in the driveway, having the kids wash it, that's all fun. But I was like, yeah, I'm taking it in to the car wash. And it's got so many cameras and sensors. It was going crazy while I was going through it. It was like.

It was like it was one of those you stay in the car. It was one One day you stay in the car and it was, you know, telling me that there were cars coming up behind me and to the right. And so I was going through the screen and I found a spot where you hit it for car wash and it turns off all the cameras, closes the windows. You can't accidentally open them while you're in there, pulls in your mirrors and turns off all of the cameras and sensors. So That's something to keep in mind. They have thought of everything so That's good.

All right. Alright, this is one show we have, I have, you two, we have been waiting for because we have a couple of guests here who are, they're killing it in their own right. Yes, they are. And a couple of basketball legends. And I'm talking about Matt Barnes and Steven Jackson and probably the first guests that I have to look up to. Haha literally huh? Literally. Oh but Matt Barnes spent 14 seasons in the NBA. And for those of you who listen to our show, 14 seasons is in the MBA is an outlier. Most of the folks who are in the MBA are in there for a hot minute and are out.

He excelled as a defensive specialist and enforcer. His basketball career ended. In with the 2017 championship with the Golden State Warriors in his final season. He is a proud father, the CEO of all the smoke production, the cohost of all the smoke and an investor slash advisor for several companies. Steven Jackson also played 14 seasons in the NBA. So no two for it. I mean that. That's a rare thing. Yeah. God, 14 years. He was pivotal in the San Antonio Spurs 2003 championship. He is the co-host of the hit series, All the Smoke, and has emerged as a spokesman for human rights and equality for people all around the world. These guys had me on their show.

Yeah. Back when we were first getting started. And they are killing it on the smoke. They're killing it on all the smoke, uh, Matt and Steven. Come on out. Come on, join us. Hey guys. Hi. What's happening? Welcome. How are you? I'm doing great. What are you talking about? See you, ma'am. Thanks for being here. Thanks for having us. Thank you, you guys. It's so good to see you. Heard your a you Doesn't that take the whole summer? It just takes the whole Summer and it's bad basketball Oh, it's horrible basketball. Are you coached too? Are you the coach? I'm coaching my kids.

Yes, same with me. Just bad. So what makes it bad basketball? Well, you got- What do you mean by bad basketball. Well, we've been- Well, where do we start? Yeah. First of all, he's around it every day. Yeah. He's talking basketball IQs, and these are NBA guys. I just want to get to where not everybody's an independent contractor. Let's just play like a team that you're supposed to play. Play it right. Learn how to play, you'll get seen. Right. But if you keep playing like this guys like me who used to be looking at you guys going to the next guy.

What age group are you coaching? Fifteen years Okay, I'm 16 13 you yeah, I just feel like to your question Michelle It's just this generation of kids are super skilled very skilled and talented because they're they're training but they're trading individual training So it's head down how many times can you put the ball between your legs? It's all the stuff that doesn't really add up to the next level So college is you know, I see spacing and ball movement and playing off the ball and obviously NBA is the ultimate show for that but these kids are just head down and go to the basket and it's very individualized and selfish so the hardest part for me and probably for you is just getting these kids all on the same page because they're all the best team they're, all the best kids on their individual teams and we try to come together for the summer and be a unit And it's difficult sometimes.

Yeah, yeah, it just feels like AAU is just an industry. Oh yeah, it's Money Maker, that's all it is. And I always give him crap about the deep investment in AAU for my nephews because it's like, to me, and this will be controversial, it's like it's not doing anything for these young men and women, you know? I mean, I had always hoped that sports would be that place where kids would learn not just the skills, but they would learn how to be on a team, learn how be social, From team sports, you're right. Have some role models, learn how to listen.

Learn how to lose, learn how to win with grace, and it just feels like this whole league is just all about money and convincing some parents that your child will be the next Mm-hmm whoever they think yeah to me is it like a gift and a curse because a you was a blessing for me I come from a small town where if I didn't have a you nobody would never heard of me So that's why I used it to be to make a name for myself and become a top high school prospect But now it's not even for that, you know It's Lisa is a lot of people are playing the game for the wrong reasons and around these kids for the raw reason Can I just say, just as a point of introduction, is that I am so impressed with the both of you on so many different levels.

That doesn't mean she's through talking basketball. No, I know we Listen now But I, but you know, watching you guys in podcasts, watching you out in the world, watching how you carry yourself, watching how you do talk about more than just basketball and how you are serving as role models for men connecting with something other than sports. I mean, that is one of the reasons why I'm really excited to have you guys on the show. You just don't meet men like you often. That means a lot, especially coming from you guys.

I mean, and that was our thing. You know, we were kind of outcasts or bad guys in the NBA, but it was just what we had to do to survive in the league. And I think our transformation post-NBA has kind of opened a lot of people's eyes. And again, never perfect. We've had a lot mishaps, but I think, you know, genuine and pure hearts and wanting to do the right thing and understanding that. You know, we don't take this microphone for granted. You know being a trusted voice in the black community is something that's, you know, very near and dear to our heart.

And you know it, I mean, we're here now, you know what I mean? So again, it's an honor to be here and we appreciate that. And you talk about a transformation, but was it? I mean, you all came into the league as enforcers or that became your role probably because you're hungry, you need to win, things you learn. But when I hear about your backgrounds, like I see the humanity in you then, it's just sort of like that league plate. You had to play some role that wasn't you because you just don't become this If you weren't.

Already then. And a lot of misunderstanding too, like people will consider you and put you in a certain category but we just love playing basketball and we played it with the ultimate passion. So just because I play the game harder than you, don't mean I'm a thug or I'm bad guy or I am a forster. I just play the games with a passion and want to put my body on the line and you're not willing to do that. And that's why we look that way at times. Me and Matt just love the game and we love our teammates. Everybody didn't love their teammates. Yeah, you know what I mean? We loved our teammates and that's why we so close now because we're very identical.

We don't look I look better than him Ha ha ha ha! But now as people, we are the same, and I think that's a lot of people see that now. And you guys tell me this, when you first got drafted and you were just going in, you weren't going in with the mindset of, I'm gonna be this guy right? Whoever you thought you were going to be. No, we didn't. I want to get in the NBA, make a career, and last, and make some money and change my family's life. I didn't go in there trying to be the best player, because I knew that really wasn't feasible for me.

I got drafted second to the last pick. I went overseas a couple years, so that wasn't my role. I went in to find my role, and it worked out for me I think obviously finding a role is instrumental for anybody because everyone thinks they're going to come in and be the next step for LeBron or Michael Jordan or Kobe or whatever. But those guys are, you know, once in a lifetime type players and then to find your role is what gave us both longevity. We found out, okay, yeah, I'd like to do more of that, but that's not what they're looking for. This is what I'm going to do. But I think back to your point too, and I think we caught the end of social media with our NBA career.

So what you saw is what you get, you know, so you may see. Jack slapped somebody or me cuss out a ref and you think, oh man, there's such, but you know, you saw two hours of a competitive guys that were doing anything they can just to continue to, to, you know, prolong our careers. So I think again, post career was when social media really started hitting and we were able just to show who we were. And again, not perfect, but real. And I think that's been this our secret to success transitioning is We didn't switch up. You know, we both worked for ESPN and Fox and worked on these networks and now have our own thing, but we've, you know, whole, hardly been us the whole time. And it surprised a lot of people thinking that, okay, you can play this way and you can talk this way and still do this.

So where, where did the idea for all the smoke come from? Go ahead, bro. You tell the story better. Man, we were, we we're fellowshipping. Mm-hmm Um yeah that was, you know, we were, we were sitting back after a cold word. That'd be a pro word. We were at my place. I had a place in the Bay still right when I retired from the Golden State and we happened to just, he came in town, we were hanging out watching games and we were both having some success with Fox and ESPN and we kept getting a lot of feedback. You guys need to do something together. You guys are authentic, you guys are real.

I mean, obviously we were brothers, but it's just like we were, he was Fox and I was more ESPN. So we were just kind of, okay, what can we do together? And I was just like, let's do a podcast. And we didn't really know what it was, but I'm just like I think we could more authentically be ourselves. You know, he's like, what's a podcast? I was like, I don't know, but I think that we can, we can smoke and we can drink and we could be ourselves and you know, I'm kind of the one that's in the weeds learning the business and understanding stuff.

And had an opportunity to meet with Brian Daly who was at Showtime at the time. He flew out from New York and we met at a hotel and I pitched him an idea and he liked it. And he had to fight tooth and nail to get it passed because this is showtime, showtime. Like the linear network. So they're just like, you want guys that are smoking weed, talking about sports on our network? They're like, no, that doesn't work. So he had, he put his life and his job on the line for us and fought for us. And, you know, first season and we won sports podcast of the year and kind of just. Flip the whole industry on its back.

I think we were the second, I think Knuckleheads, Quentin Richardson, and Darius Miles were maybe a handful of months behind us. But when we came in, we kind of really feel like we. Kick the door in. And now we're almost kind of like the godfathers of this space because there's so many podcasts out now. But I do want to say with the amount of podcasts out, we don't look at anyone as competition because I feel like we're unique in our own ways and everyone has their own journeys and own stories. And I think a player's perspective is what fans as a whole want to hear. That's what I want to here now.

I'm a fan now that I'm done so I want to hear what a fan has to say or what a pro has to say so We got a ton of brothers and sisters in this space now, and I think it's great because now, for so many years, it was only the talking figures that had never played that are speaking on who we are, who we think we are instead of us allowing or us talking for ourselves, but also allowing our brothers and sister to give their own truths and painting their own pictures. Well, I'm part of showing that piece is folks understanding and knowing your stories, you know, little Matt and little Steve.

And I'm so moved by what you guys have both been through, but talk a bit about growing up, you know, what your childhoods were like, what home was like, and what it wasn't like. I know you've talked about it before. Our audience is new to you and I want. I want them to know all of you because that's also what makes you special. For me, I grew up by raising my grandmother and grandfather. So I'm a grandma's baby, I'm grandma's baby to this day, I get emotional thinking about it. She had, I have a lot of aunts, I was raised by a lot of women, I grow up in the church, transfer Muslim now, but I grew up in a church, grew up singing in the Church Choir.

Trying to sing. You got a voice? No, he doesn't. I can hold a note. No, he doesn't. Okay, never mind. I will do that to you. I will not do that. Don't gas him up. I will NOT do that! Just real family, it's a small town, eight sets of low income housing, one or two high schools, one grocery store, so I've seen it all. Just thankful that I had a great support system. My city, every time I tried to get in trouble or be something that I wasn't, they protected me and they saw me with the talent to go to the NBA when I didn't see it.

So my city just protected me, small town put out to Texas, Jimmy Johnson, Janice Joplin, they all from there. Jamal Charles, Kendrick Perkins is from 15 minutes away, but I had a great upbringing and I was lucky that I was around a lot of love because I made a lot mistakes. And the people around me showed me that you have a chance to be something in life. So I owe it all to my city, my family. Is your grandmother still alive with us? No, she's in my home. My grandfather won't pass me. Were they able to see? Yes, so the first year I made it to the NBA, my grandfather passed.

So he was able to see me, my grandmother. Yeah yeah yeah. Me man bi-racial child, Italian mom, black father, growing up in the 80s. Yikes. A little different. A little bit different. My parents, my dad would tell me stories of just being in certain areas and getting into fights because he was with a white woman. Um, so... Growing up a biracial kid, the first eight years of my life, I didn't know any different because I was around a lot of kids that were either like me or black, Mexican, Asian, whatever it was. And then we moved to Sacramento at about 1989.

And my parents were both functioning drug users. You know, we never went without, but I knew, and again, growing up in the eighties, I just saw a lot. We had the house that everyone hung out at, so I just a lot growing up. But the oldest of three, And moving at the end of the 80s up to Sacramento, it was kind of a culture shock. Although we found a neighborhood that was similar to my neighborhood, my parents started putting me in predominantly white schools. And although I'm half Italian, I was never really around white kids. And I was always a big old outcast.

Had to fight for friends, fight for the opportunity for sports, faced a ton of racism. Um, but I really think it started shaping me at an early age of just, okay, this is, this is a cold world now. Like I, you know, I had a little, a little bubble in my first nine years, but I'm in this real world now where people dread you based in it. You know, we go home crying at times at eight or nine years old, like why won't the kids let me play? And obviously my mom would console me and hug me and love me. And my dad's like, no, I fight them.

And I'm like, oh, you're giving me a pass to fight. So you know at, at eight, or nine, years old I started fighting for that respect and fighting for. Racism and I didn't really understand why but it just was what it was. So, you know, long story short I gained a lot of acceptance and once they accepted me I was an athlete that played for sports football basketball baseball and track and and really made a lot a lifelong friend that I Still have to this day But I would say the one thing that shaped my entire childhood literally right up until I went to UCLA was just the racism My senior high school in Sacramento Kid was messing with my sister calling her racial slurs and I did what a big brother is supposed to do. I protected her and school didn't believe me. They thought I was some kind of on some bully stuff. I get to spend it for a week and then the school is nearly is vandalized by the KKK.

Burned down bathrooms, mannequins with dye varns, [Unrecognized] here. I mean, there's still swastikas engraved in that. I've been out of high school for almost 30 years now. So it was just really kind of it again. I don't look at it as like poor me. It was just kind of what shaped me. And what gave me a voice before I even had a voice, before I had a platform to share my voice. And that's why I'm so outspoken to this day on racism and in politics and policy and police brutality, because I've just seen a lot as a young child that I knew that, okay, if I'm ever blessed enough to have my own platform, I need to speak up for all the people that don't have an opportunity to speak.

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Have you guys, do you guys go back to your homes, your neighborhoods? Have you spent some time back there reinvesting? My family is still there. I tried to open a school there one time, but as of today, I go home and see family, but I lost a lot of siblings in the last couple of years. It brings back memories, so I just try to stay away. I get back to Sacramento. I mean, I'm very interested in policy. So I've been up to the Capitol and helped pass police brutality bills and helping. Kevin Johnson was a former NBA player who was the mayor of Sacramento, who kind of inspired me to think about possibly, you know, I gave myself, I think at 31 or 32 when I was still in the NBA, I was like, by 50, I want to be the mayor my hometown.

So, I am 45 now. So. I don't know. But I've done a lot of grassroots stuff back there with, you know equal opportunity, cannabis stuff and again walking the state capitals and doing that kind of stuff so not directly in my neighborhood but just more kind of giving back to the city and planting those those seeds in case I do decide to go back one day and you know do something. Do you think you might get into politics? I could. I mean, I love politics. It's something that I really found fascinating. At first, what interested me in politics, it wasn't so much the policies.

It was more, I just saw Kevin Johnson revitalize his neighborhood. He came from one of the worst neighborhoods in Sacramento and he kind of turned it upside down in a good way and provided a lot of job opportunities and just opportunity for people. That's what inspired me. I have a six-year-old and 11-month-old to go with my six- year-old twins. So daddy duty is always first and foremost. Absolutely, politics will suck the life out of that. The life out of that. Right. So, if it ever presents itself once my boys are old enough and it really kind of set, you know, it's something I might take a look at.

Do you consider yourselves outliers in your, I don't even want to say your industry, but in the peer group of athletic men? And I'll say that because I found that, you know, it was always very easy when we would reach out because we would always reach out to top athletes, to top entertainers. WNBA, women always signed up when we all voted, you from college on, it's always hard to get the brothers to you know, to focus. I'm just wondering why, what are we missing, you know, in sports where women athletes are ready to, You know, go, go ho ho.

I want him to answer first because I think he's come a long way, but he has and and you know This is a very interesting question because I was someone who dove in once I started learning about it But he was someone on the other side. He don't he'd only seen and I'll let him speak for herself He'd only seeing the bad side of stuff. So what is my voter? What is my voice? And especially, you know, with, you know, George Floyd was my close friend, like my twin. So seeing that whole situation, you know seeing both sides with people that are there for the right reasons and people that are not, you know, it'll rub you the wrong way because you're dealing with a situation where there's somebody that you love that passed. Yeah.

But now you're using this for a political gain. You know, so I've seen both sides. So for me, I actually start asking them questions because it's a lot I don't understand and don't know. I kind of leave them leaving my heart. And I'm not big on hope dealing. If you want to do something for somebody, do it. If you know what they need, do it. That's just how I look at it. And I know politics is not that clear cut. So I'm open now to listen to him and to learn more about politics because I understand how it affects us.

Yeah. From the George Floyd situation. So I've always been one person that I don't know everything and I've been willing to learn. But that situation with me not sleeping some nights, seeing how people really hate other races, like I've never experienced that and been in the middle of it in my life, so to see that, it opened my mind to a lot of things. So I'm willing to understand people and ask questions. And I don't think if I wouldn't went through that situation and seeing all the pain and people hurt and being in 29 states on my own dime, giving this to neighborhoods that I'm not from, and to see how much we need stuff, I'm open to learning any and everything involving politics now.

So I credit that to him and I credit it to the situations that I would experience And I just think this is this is a marathon and not a sprint and you guys know that and I think the reason why I jumped in and obviously that we knew that there was going to be a ton of people who were voiceless, but then also becoming a father you know you always want the best for your kids and at one point I'm not going to be here to guide them and do everything so I wanted to try to be part of something and understanding the power of our platforms.

I mean we have athletes, low key run every aspect of whether it be fashion, you know our opinions are heavy. We got not necessarily arguments, but definitely disagreements because I'm just like, you know, I feel like what he just said, I was just like there's so many people that feel like you. So if you would come out and explain that, I think people will kind of, okay, I get why you don't, but now that he's willing to listen, I think it's huge. So you never do. We disagree. We disagree for about a good week. Yeah. He was mad, to be honest.

But we love it though, so it was a healthy conversation. I would be checking on him just understanding, you know, we're just going through with the George Floyd stuff and just understanding to be able to embrace the opportunity and, you know being a leader on the basketball court is one thing, but you know this guy led the biggest protest the world's ever seen. You know what I mean? So to understand and be able galvanize that and carry that momentum to the next level. What it was, is I'm always, I've always been a team guy, you talk about principles you learned in AAU that you don't learn anymore.

You learned, I think if it's taught the right way, you learn so much stuff from team sports. So I'm always trying to bring people in and understand that, you know, we're the, the fist is stronger than the finger. The most important thing on the court for us at the time is to be able to be focused because of no matter how crazy the world is, we're paid a lot of money to do our jobs and there's no excuse, whether your mom dies, your kid's sick. You know, none of that matters when you're on the basketball court, you know, so.

Again, that's why I respect, I may not like, but I respect everyone's decision whether they wanna use their platform or not because it is, it's a lot, you know what I mean? And I even feel today not playing, I'm just like every day I look on social media like this stuff is heavy. I think growing up, we become numb to so much stuff. So we see family members can't afford medicine and die. We see friends, accidental murders and stuff, so much growing up. So when you get to the point where you're having success and you're able to change your family lives, you kind of come numb to the stuff that you grew up seeing. And that's not right.

You know what I'm saying? You got to go back and try to help somebody else so they won't go through the same situations you've been through growing up so. A lot of kids don't see it because a lot of these kids in the NBA, they didn't struggle. Mm-hmm. You know, a lot of them didn't struggle, so they don't know what it's like. So they don't know what it's like and that's new now, right? Yeah, that's a new way that a little bit more A lot of kids grew up, I grew up on food stamps and drugs and violence, like my kids grew up behind gates and private schools, you know what I mean? So these kids don't have I don't think a lot of them really know their why, you know, because everything has been, these kids now are getting more money in high school and college than some guys are getting in the NBA, so it's just like, where's the grind?

We had to grind to get to a certain level or grind to a get a certain amount money. And now, thanks to, because we've always talked about athletes should be paid, but these kids are getting paid a lot earlier and they're getting a lot of money. So where is that? Where's their mindset at? What is their, again, what is their why? So it's just a different time now and I'm happy for all these kids because we busted our asses to make sure this is the way they got to grow up. You know, I mean, again to his point, we don't want our kids, I don't want my kids to struggle with the racism and the food stamps and living with family and family them with us. Like I worked my butt off so they didn't have to do that.

But at the same time, how do you instill those qualities? In your kids to understand that, hey, this is not the, you know, we're blessed. This is no, we are not the richest family, but we're comfortable enough to know that the rest of the world may not see this or live like this. That's why I give him credit. He's done a great job of changing the trajectory of his kid's life. But you wouldn't know, they're very down-to-earth. They're very humble. They're good boys. So they don't carry themselves like we've been living a great life.

They're a very humble, and when you're a parent that can come from the struggle and change the life, but also instill that into the kids, I think that'd be the best ones to have the best in both worlds. Because you're going to deal with some stuff in life that you don't have the blueprint for, and you're gonna have to figure it out on the fly. So, I mean, that's just life. But... I like the fact that he, what he said, because you want to change your kid's life, but you still want those to have the morals that we grew up with.

We're saying, yes ma'am, open doors. A lot of kids don't do those little things no more, holding doors for the elders and stuff like that. So if you can instill those morals into your kids, but also understand they're still blessed, I think that'd be the best kids. How do you do that? How are you all doing that? I think parenting, I think when we grew up, and I'm 45, it was a dictatorship. I mean, what my parents said went, period. You know what I mean? And if you talk back, you were going to meet the consequences.

I think now it has to be, we have to meet in the middle. I think it's more of a conversation now because of the internet and because they have access to so much stuff at a younger age and they're hearing different voices and different opinions and seeing stuff we may not know they're seeing at a certain age. So. With me, particularly when my twins are 16 and I have a six-year-old and I'm 11-month-old, so it was always for me leaving little breadcrumbs knowing that I'm going to have to cross this bridge eventually.

And then it was just kind of leaving bread crumbs with girlfriends and holding hands and hugging and then kissing and I was thankful. And they're probably going to get mad at me. But when they're, when the boys were about to start having sex with like that, I think it worked close. You know, can we, and so I, I, I knew I did something right to know that my sons felt comfortable enough and I was like, did you tell your mom? They're like, no, we can't tell mom, you know what I mean? So they felt comfortable enough to come to me to ask something that I hit for my parents and I'm sure 90% of the kids would hide from their parents is, you know, we're about to step into a whole new space of girlfriends and sex and that kind of stuff.

So. To answer your question, I just think it's more of bringing our old school morals and discipline and meeting them halfway, understanding with this generation and this culture is like, because the last thing you want to do, and I credit my kids a lot, especially being in this media space, is being old and outdated in your ways, because you get attacked for that these days. That's right. And that kind of thinking doesn't elevate at all. So finding that old school discipline and morals and understanding and meeting with this new generation of just life is at the palm of their hands.

And you can do that way earlier than you think with kids, you know, you can't use big words, you can use examples that don't make sense to them. But if we sort of fully see children as people, and not as our little mini means, or people who are just here for our entertainment and our comfort, but as humans in the room who have real legitimate questions, I mean, I always say our kids have a lot of questions because the only thing they have to do. And life is, watch us. They ain't workin'. They don't have worries. They're watching everything we do, everything we say.

Absolutely. And if we don't explain ourselves to them, if we think, oh, you're too young to understand, you're automatically cutting, you are taking away their credit. I think for me, watching my mom made me a great parent. My dad stayed five minutes away from me. He's gone now, but he never was around. My mom worked from six in the morning. You know, this graveyard shit. Your mom go to work at six in a morning, she get off at six and even you don't even see her when you get off from school. So I seen the dedication that she put, but she also never demeaned my father.

She never demeaning him in no type of way, never spoke bad of him. So when I start having my own kids, you know, when I even- You got a lot of them. I got a lotta them. Do you? How many kids do you have? 17 Oh! No, I don't have no 17 kids. Okay, I got it. I got five girls of my own one out of marriage and I got two boys

It's like we're watching a show. Hey, I'm on my best behavior but every once in a while I gotta poke him a little bit. It wouldn't be him, but just learn from her and watching her do the things she did. And as I started having my kids, it's a lot of situations where I could have responded out of emotion. Imagine being at your child's game. The mother poisoned him so much that all his teammates will come and talk to you but your son ignores you. So I'm leaving games crying because I don't know how to respond. But seeing my mom, not demean my daddy, get up every day and do what she had to for us.

That showed me, look, just continue to do your part. It'll work out, you work yourself out, and eventually did. But if I wouldn't have known that, if I would have seen such a strong woman raising us and working hard for us every day. Now you guys, so both of your careers are kind of mirrored, right? You had to really overcome obstacles to get to where you were, then you get to where you are and you got to overcome even more obstacles. And I would be interested in hearing, how are you helping your kids understand those obstacles and then overcoming their own because like you said.

We, we all came up differently than the way we're raising our kids and I hate being the old guy that's saying back in the day, right? You have to though, you have to do it because they'll never have it as worse as we had. And I think that's the only thing like I tell myself your journey is going to be different from mine. But you won't have to work as hard as I had. You have your own journey, you have your ups and downs, your own stuff you're going to go through. But I've paved the way for you where it can be easy.

You know the road, the blueprint, they're basically playing basketball, that's what you want to do. So I've done everything. The good and bad for you to know what not and what to do. So I think that's a blessing to have because we didn't have that. I never had an NBA player come talk to me as a kid and tell me you can make it and not to do this. So just so I have the experience to give him, I think he's ahead of the curve already. And I also think, too, from a different standpoint, and it's unfortunate, but it's the norm now, it's just broken homes.

You know what I mean? I divorced my twin's mom when they were five years old, and we had to learn how to — mom and dad's house this weekend, mom's house next weekend, how can we still bring a village together to let them know we love them and support them, and our love will never waver, although your mom and I aren't together. Our love for you, you guys are still the apple of both of our eyes if we're going to do anything. And then unfortunately with my second situation, I'm in a similar situation with my 11 month old and my, and my six year old now where, you know, their mom and I split up.

So to me, it's really a lot of mental, a whole lot of, we, we talk sports and we talk, but to me it's just making sure they're okay. Because again, although it's the norm, it, it it's still tough on a child. I mean, I think the divorce rate for professional athletes is like in the seventies. You know what I mean? So, again, unfortunately, we fell into that statistic. But at the same time, you know, understanding and as the twin, it's night and day that the twins and other twins completely understand. You know, I get along with my ex and her husband.

And again, it's a village for them, but it's new to my two youngest. So trying to explain to my six year old, like what is going on? Obviously, the baby doesn't know any better. But to explain my six-year-old that. Mommy and daddy don't live together no more, unfortunately, but, you know, you're still we're coming on, we're still doing stuff with the family for birthdays, graduations, holidays. We're going to still make it as comfortable as we can because there is no blueprint for broken families. You just got to hope that, you keep the kids first, and that you can be cordial enough to make sure their childhood is still what it needs to be, although we're not together day to day anymore.

And I think, again, that part of my story isn't unique. I think it's very common. And to be able to Still put the kids first no matter what you're going through with your ex-husband or ex-wife I think is is always the goal and it's not as easy as it sounds I mean, I we had so I had some hard times with my twins with my ex-wife Just trying to get on that page and thankfully we're there now and again You know this newer situation with my younger ones has been easier with her and I still communicate constantly and where we're putting the kids but I know my six-year-old, you know, sometimes has issues with it. You know what I mean? So just making sure that I'm loving on him and communicating with him more as, you're only six, but I'm going to communicate with you as if you're older and because I think you understand what's going on.

So again, there's no blueprint for this. But you know being a father is my greatest accomplishment and thing I love absolute most on this earth. So I got to pour, although the situations didn't work, still pour everything I can into. You're present. You've been present from day one for all your kids, and that's what all fathers need to understand. Just be present. It ain't about money. It's about time. It's the time. Make your presence felt in your child life and match the mask out of it.

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How do you all manage the emotional presence for your children as men? I know, Matt, in an interview, I heard you say that you hadn't cried in 30 years. That's what we did. Yeah, that's what we did. I cried. I was crying a minute ago. I cry. I can't cry yet. I haven't I wanna I want to learn I don't know We had Jason Wilson on the show, I hope we can get some off the camera time with him because he came close today. Yeah, he was special and I mean that interview was so special because we didn't even go off any of the, it was just freestyle.

Once we had it, started having that real conversation and I felt vulnerable and I felt okay with it because I know me sharing my story, there's a ton of people that have similar journeys or have the same issues. Why I can't cry? I don't know. I want to, because I know it would be a great cleansing, but... Again, I've touched on the emotional side and the emotional intelligence of kids. And again, it's just conversating. You know, one of my twins, this is supposed to be a big summer for him. And he went to a top 100 camp and fractured his ankle. So he had to watch the entire summer.

And it's one, you know, you got a twin brother out there doing this thing. And then the other twin is just like, and so one twin, the school, they're starting to talk to one twin. And then he other twins like, what about you know what I mean? So just again, that. Emotional and letting them know we still got them and you still have plenty of time to show the world what you can do And this is you know this is going to build character and Because there's again to jack's point I mean their journeys are different and and and kids run from the grind these days and they transfer And they're jumping all around so I was like this is gonna build I was Like I promise you you're gonna be better Do your do your kids cry?

Do they feel? They do. Yeah, they're definitely comfortable enough to, you know what I mean? But again, they didn't, you know, for us growing up and, you know, it's probably similar like growing up in the age of crying, showing a sign of weaknesses, huh? What? You know, and mental health is what? Like mental health just started becoming a conversation maybe five or six years ago. You know? If you cried, you were soft. If you had like forget your issues, you know, I was someone to the point where. I made it through all the bad stuff I had to go through.

So the mental health, like, what are you talking about? Like, I'm not letting that hold me back. And then when I started getting counseling and realizing like, hey, some of the stuff from your childhood is a reason why you're not empathetic is you need to be your sympathetic or you put up walls. It's just like, OK, now I need to go. You said little Matt, it made me laugh. That's what my counselor says. Like, you know, you got to tap in with little Matt and fix those things that, you know, my parents didn't know that they were doing it wrong, but that sometimes they were doing it wrong and it caused issues as for me as an adult. So again, Being very aware of the surroundings and the environment, I put my kids in considering that I'm into unfortunately failed situations, but I have kids with kids in those situations.

So how do you stay on top of it mentally and then from the loving side of it as well? I mean, failure isn't a bad thing for as long as you learn from it in their parents. I mean that's that's something that Iraq and I try to remember all the time. It's like, you know, seeing the vulnerability seeing the fear. It kind of gives I found them permission to have those same emotions like we think we're being strong for our kids. We think we're shielding them, but. You know, when my girls perk up, it's when we talk about failure right?

And to see two parents who have succeeded at a certain level, you know, we have to make it a point, right, because they weren't around when we were grinding, struggling when we lost congressional bid, when I failed the bar the first time, when we had an or when, you know, they were too young for that. So it becomes even more important for us to take them down those emotional paths, because they, kids like ours, they have so much support, but they have so much pressure. And it's not from the outside world, it's internal, you know?

It's like, my dad is so, so awesome, I don't want to disappoint them. Like they're having those little thoughts in their heads, right? Mm-hmm. And we have to be really, really deliberate about breaking that stuff down for them, giving them permission, making failure like that's part of the journey. Okay, learn from it. So look at us. But also too, I think, you know, when you're young, you think the road to success and whatever success that is for you is like this. That's right. You know, and it's the furthest thing from the truth.

But as you get older, you start to see like, hey, that failure or that mishap is going to help me get back on track. But again, and that's why I said that earlier, like protecting your kids too much to me is you're going to set them up once they're free and have to really fend for this world. Like if they haven't seen anything, they're going have a hard time finding who they are as adults. We had to be so deliberate about that, right, because our girls had secret service agents until Malia went to college, which we were thrilled about in the teen years. Barack was like, I'm going to get reelected just so that my girls have secret service in the team.

You ain't sneaking off and doing that and you ain't supposed to be doing it. Nobody's sneaking, doing anything, but at the same time, I had to give them enough rope to sneak. Because just like you, it's like, you got to learn what trouble is before you run into it. You got to have the baby trouble, the trouble of being at the wrong party at the wrong time. You got learn how to drive. You got get a ticket. You got to get through an airport You have to have the trouble where the ramifications aren't big enough to ruin your life.

Because a lot of people don't get out and make it out of those situations. And also I wanted them to have some of those experiences when they were coming home to me. We could still talk through it and work through it. It right? So you guys have such deep wisdom when it comes to fatherhood. How has that impacted your love lives? What have you, how have you grown? Here you go ego You know, because there's a lot of, you know, there's a lot. With me, Michelle, I'm learning daily. You see, you didn't let me fill in that blank.

I'm learning, I'm learning daily and you know, it's it's, it it's really within myself and, and understanding, because I think we get such a jaded point of view being professional athletes. For our alone year professional athlete, like, and then for us to be professional athletes and then still jump right on big TV and still kind of keep, you know, we were both, I mean, he was a better scorer than me and, and accolades on scoring, but we were both somewhat role players, but we were able to transition into this media space and somewhat be stars and kind of trend setters in this space.

So I think as athletes, you have such a false sense of just reality at times and being able to look yourself in the mirror and like, hey. All this drama here and you want to point the finger to other people, you need to point it to yourself first. You know, look at the mirror and understand like where your faults were and what I could have did better. Even if it wasn't all the way my fault, what could I have did it better? So really just a lot of reflection, I'm at a real reflective point of my life right now. Just kind of understanding, trying to build a better relationship with God because I know all that stuff is going to help me be better in every field I'm in.

So. Again, I'm currently single and again, not necessarily looking for anything because I think right now more is just like, I got to get little Matt all the way together. And that's going to help grown Matt be a better man, father, owner, friend and business partner. What if I tell you if you cried once, you'd find the love of your life? I can't wait to be there because it's going to help me too. I need it. I just need it, you know when it'll come. You know when it'll come when when when your boys it's going to come.

From your boys. It's funny you said that, I'm just thinking they'll be 17 and I only have another year and a half with them and they're gone. When they're done. It's just like that might be the time so my guys in the college Well, we had one of those moments with Barack when we dropped Malia off, because we still did because we tried to do all the normal stuff, even as president, you know, so she had to go a day earlier so that the presidential motorcade, we could go on the campus, do the thing, you take her boxes up, because I was like, we are not farming that out, you know.

Even home, right? So I you know So we're up there, the roommates, parents got to come early. And so we're doing all the college stuff, making her bed, because whenever they went to camp or somewhere, I said, I'll make your bed once and I'll it really neat and nice. And then that's it. Got her room all set up. And you could tell Barack was totally clueless. He didn't know where to be. We gave him a lamp from Ikea and said, put it together. Here, you take this box. Haha There was nothing to put together, but he was over there with his lamp for like two hours.

And then came time we took her to lunch at some restaurant and then we had to leave. We had to get in this motorcade and leave the baby behind, and to watch her standing at that restaurant, waving goodbye. So I'm Yes Brackets in the car, you know, we're driving back to the Air Force One in the motorcade, you know. We're a little quiet and I hear this. That was literally the sign and I had to look over and be like, the agents are like, sir, are you okay? And he's like, it's like just, man, just do it, just cry, let it go, make it happen, you know?

But it was like, you know, there was just a deep kind of, you know. Mm-hmm. Leaving your kids in a place. Mm-hmm. You know and and saying that's it. Yeah. Yeah, I want to I want a ride to you want to ride with me By the way, guys, Michelle's going to be joining us today. I'm here, I'll make you bed. There you go. While your father cries over the lamp. I'm looking forward to it. I don't know what it is. I just feel like, you know, I lost my mom. That's how he and I became close. I lost my mom in 2007 and I had to be the rock for the family.

You know, my dad was miserable. My sorrow, you know, My dad was lost. My sister was hurt. My everyone wasn't. But I had it like I played a game the next day. You know what I mean? I've always kind of had to be like no matter who it was, I had to be The Rock for everyone else. And it's just like there is at times where I'm hurt, but it's Just like it won't release it. So I'm hoping. Have you picked people that you can let go with? I'm getting back to the question of relationships and Steven, you haven't said a word.

I made an answer that I just didn't want to interrupt before. Yeah, go ahead. Well, with me, I just, I've made a lot of mistakes that I've always held myself accountable. That's my biggest thing. But one thing I've I always did, I always kept my heart in the right place and I've always lived my life to show God I deserve everything he blessed me with. So I have a big heart. So even when people do me bad, if I was done bad in relationships, I have always did what I was supposed to do to make sure the other person, you know, was taking care of what was right.

So I don't feel bad about. Any situation I've been in because I've always left that person better leaving me than when they came with me. So, just experiencing me being accountable. I held myself accountable for everything. So I don't regret anything. I've done what I was supposed to do. I been a father, I've a friend, I been the guy when I was treated like crap and still stood up and provided for people when they didn't deserve it. So it's just being able to your stuff in the mirror, you know, good or bad. I've been one of those guys, I came up with a saying, I make love to pressure.

So nothing would make me become a bad person, become a human being. My heart is always in the right place. So I think that's how I handle every situation. You know, this time of year reminds me of growing up on the South Side of Chicago with my sister Michelle and the comfort meals we would eat during the fall. You know when the big fall recipes start coming out, you also have to worry about the mess they make. But you know what's changed the game for my family is this amazing little machine called Mill. You just drop in those apple cores and pumpkin peels, the dinner scraps, and Mill automatically transforms them overnight.

It's completely odorless and no fruit flies. Mill holds weeks of food scraps and turns them into these nutrient-rich grounds. And I love being able to work them right into our soil, knowing... That the food I couldn't eat is now helping our plants grow is such a satisfying feeling, but you have to live with mill to really get it. Good thing is that you can try it risk-free and get $75 off at mill.com slash IMO that's mill. Dot com slash. IMO.

And you both are really powerful examples of building a life beyond a very long, prosperous, successful set of careers. Talk about how you even are able to wrap your heads around the next level of success without holding on too much. To not be able to think, to do the thing that made you, you. You know, that's a whole mental challenge right there. You know? We see it. We see people not being able to walk away from their sport. Not because they haven't achieved everything, but it almost feels like you're scared. You haven't thought as much, as great as you are, it is clear that you haven't thought about anything.

What's next? Mm-hmm. You guys have managed that pretty doggone well. I think for me, I took pride in being a team player while I was playing. So after basketball, you never know what's gonna happen or what's going to go. But I think, for me being a solid guy, being a good friend to a lot of different people, good things happen for you. I had no idea what was gonna happen after basketball to be honest, no idea. But I think, like I said, my relationship with Matt and building just have an opportunity of the podcast has taken us to spaces that I never even believe. So for me, good things always happen to me because I wake up every day to show God I deserve whatever is coming in my life, I'm getting ready for it.

I'm not waiting till my blessing come, I live my life that way. And he'll tell you, I'm the biggest protector out of all our friends. I jump in front of everything for everybody. I'm loyal to a fault. But God continues to bless me because I love hard and I love my people hard. So the only reason I'm in this position is because I'm a good teammate. I have a great team around me. I would never take credit for where I'm at in my life today, and the success we have. And I got a great team and a great group of people that we treat each other like family, we respect each other.

If you can't be a good teammate, if you can learn how to respect people and treat people how you want to be treated, you're not going to have any success, especially as a basketball player. Because after basketball, they're already coming to you with expecting you to know everything and offer your name. Well, a lot of us don't know anything but basketball. Um, I don't know, I could just, my, my journey has been crazy fun. Um, because I mean, I think there was such a, not a misconception, cause I think I have a reputation to earn, whether good or bad.

And I had a borderline reputation. I was a virtual line stepper in the NBA, but I was also at the same time understanding that this isn't going to last forever. I just look at myself as being so lucky that. I played 14 years, got paid for 16 years to put a ball in a hoop. That's a dream, like you wanna call that a job. To me, that's a Dream. And then now I'm getting paid great money to talk and inspire and motivate and educate and talk trash and have fun. So to me, like, I don't feel like I've ever worked a day in my life, you know what I mean?

I love hearing that and, you know, we have a question from our listener, but before we get to the question, I would love it if you would talk to our listeners about what's really good about the NBA, but also what's really hard about it. Cuz I don't think I don't hear people talking about it anything. It sounds like a wonderful fantasy land. It always sounds like a wonderful thing, but having now worked in the front office of a couple of teams, I've seen behind the curtain, and I would love for you to share your thoughts on what's really, really hard about it.

Two, I mean, one, everybody don't know how to be a professional. You have to learn. It's not just about basketball once you get there. I was blessed to have David Robinson, Tim Duncan, Steve Kerr, Steve Smith, all those guys in my early years, because I learned how to a professional, I watched these guys. A lot of these kids have no, there's no vets in the game. So then I taught how to to be professional. For me, that's really it. That's really. As being a professional? On the politics side. On and off the court. You got to learn how to do with the politics too. It's a lot of times I should have made the All-Star games, I didn't make it because of a guy who wasn't in trouble.

He wasn't better than me, but he just wasn't trouble. And he made it. So you got to learn how deal with the politics tool in NBA. That's a big part of it. Just know first and foremost, it's a business and you're very lucky to be a part of that business and you've got to keep the first thing first and I give professional athletes today a lot of credit and not that we're I mean I'm eight years removed But in those eight years the game has changed so much in the world has changed So much like there's so much outside distraction now on the media part of it on top of the money These kids are good. I mean these kids are getting They're making $80 million a year just from this, but on top of all that, you know what I mean?

So it's just like, it's kind of just understanding, keeping the first thing first, knowing that it's a business, knowing that the average MBA career is three and a half years. You know what mean? So what's going to set you apart? And I said earlier, when you get there, it's 10% physical and 90% mental. So how are you carrying yourself and understanding now from the second we had. I couldn't imagine if I had cameras on me at UCLA, I probably wouldn't be here or even early in my career because we were just off the chain. We didn't know until we got around Vets.

And now the game, the NBA desperately, and I'm sure a lot of sports, it's getting younger and younger. So it's not the blind, but almost the blind leading the blind. When we came in the league. There was 38, 39, 40 year olds smoking cigarettes in locker room, but just, Hey, this is, this, let's go buy your first sets of suits. You know, let us stay away from them, those women, you know, that's not waste your money on there's, there's none of that in the game anymore. So, I mean, what there's so much given a lot is, a lot is, is, expected and just, you gotta keep the first thing first in today's because There's just so many people with the money and with the exposure now of athletes. There's so many different distractions and so many people grabbing at you, but when it's gone, it's gone, you know, when it is gone, is gone.

So understand it and to enjoy the journey. I know as athletes, we're always the next guy. We lost last night or I had 30 last night, but tonight we play. Enjoy the ride because the ride goes so fast. And if you don't, if you don't sit back and appreciate the ups and downs, the goods and bads, why are there when you're done, you're going to be like, damn, I wish I would have, I wish, I would've, I wish I wouldn't have. It's a business. Keep the first thing first and enjoy the journey. So we've got a question from Tony.

Tony in New York. Sup Tony. I grew up with humble beginnings in Baltimore, and today I find myself in a very different place. I'm successful, married, and raising a mixed-race child in suburbia. As a black father, I carry the weight of my own lived experiences. I often find myself wrestling with how much of that to pass on to my son. Recently his daycare flagged him for aggressive behavior, and it hit a nerve. I want to raise a strong confident black boy who understands his value, but I also know that the world doesn't always give our children the benefit of the doubt.

I feel a tension between wanting to protect him by teaching him restraint and caution and not wanting to suppress his autonomy or spirit in the process. So my question is, how do you raise a child in a new reality without letting your old reality shape too much of their world. Like, how do you guide them with wisdom born of struggle without projecting your fears that may no longer serve them? Oh, Tony. Great question, Tony, and I can tell by the way that that's my favorite group. I can't tell by the way, that the question, he wrote the question that he is very aware of just what's going on. Both sides.

He's aware of both sides. And I would say it being a biracial man, it was different for me because it was wasn't the norm growing up. But I think now, thankfully, there's the world is becoming more of a melting pot and it's more accepted. And I had the same. Thoughts as the twins were coming up, like my, they, KKA tried to kill me. I mean, I had to move and all this kind of stuff. So do I pour that trauma into my kids? Do I not make them aware of it? Do they learn about it? So luckily we live in a society today where I feel like, you know, what is it, interracial or whatever, bi-racial Children are more more of the norm.

So I just think it's a fine line. And I don't think this is a blanket answer. I think it is a situation by situation circumstance where you have to take individual situations and break them down because you're going to come across racism at some point and you don't want to throw so much fear in them that they start hating other people, but you also want them to be naive and understand like, hey, there are some people that were grown and raised a different way that we don't necessarily agree with and they were taught hate instead of love and keep them in their place.

But... I'm also a firm believer, like, don't put your hands on me or don't put your hand on my children. Mm-hmm You know what I mean? I'm for peace until you cross that line. So you always have to be able to protect yourself and defend yourself. But hopefully, you teach them the right way to have a broader understanding of what this crazy world is about. And they approach those situations with confidence, first and foremost, and an understanding. I started something on the George Floyd time, something that says love for all who have love for and I always put every hand, every color emoji.

But at the same time, you wanna let you, especially a black young man, you want to let him know who he is, but also let him that you don't need to demean the next race to make yourself look better. I think that's what a lot of races feel like and in order to make itself look better, you have to demeanor next. And that's something we don't do on our show. A lot of shows do that. Find something to talk about to me and somebody. And try to go viral, we've never done that. So I've always taught that to my kids, know who you are first, because once you know who you are, can't nobody knock you off your rocker.

Can't nobody make you say something or do something that you'll regret because you know who are first. Mm-hmm. Second, understand that people are going to say things, but you never have to demean someone to make yourself look better. I think the world is real caught up in that. I'm going to make him look bad so I can look better, no. I've always taught it to my kids, so I've been grateful to them. My kids have been growing up a lot around different races, so they understand. I grew up a little around the Mexicans.

My best friend is Jewish. So Josh Passen was a coach at UNLV. So I think just the way I live my life. That kind of knocked that stigma off my kids, but at the same time I let them know who they are because when you are a young black man, things, whether you understand it or not. Mm-hmm You're going to be treated differently, you're going be looked at differently, and a lot is going to harder for you than the next. That's just how it is as a black man. That's how it just is. And once they understand that, then they'll be willing to embrace it and don't look at it as starting behind.

That's a great point. I mean, so I've got a son who's fully black, older, 33, and then I've got two younger sons who are biracial. And I've always thought, and even with my daughter, who's black, talking about communicating about race early, helping them understand that it's just life's not fair right now. Wasn't fair when we were coming up and it's not fair now. It's better now, but it's not fair. You're going to be looked upon a certain way because you're black. I think having that discussion early helped them prepare for things as they come in, and we just try and talk about it.

We try and talk our way through. And to Tony's point, I was always worried about my kids being mislabeled as over aggressive because they were black. And so we talked about when you're in a, so you go into a situation, you have to be aware that some people may think you're over aggressive. That doesn't mean change who you are, but just be aware. Read the room, read the room. That's a great way to read the room, because there are going to be times, because my mom always talked about this. She always feels like she made me too non-aggressive and made her over aggressive.

And that was the times back in the sixties and seventies. So I don't want them to lose their ability to have a little edge about them. But I also want them to be aware that if you show that edge, you're going to get. I just feel, again, I feel like it's an unfortunate situation, but black and brown parents have different conversations than the rest of the world, because again, as I mentioned, like race is just a part of, hey, this is how you're splitting. This is just another hurdle we're going to have to hop. You know, this not a conversation that, you know, unfortunately white families have to worry about.

Police discrimination and people looking at them a certain way, because it's just not. So again, that's why when I initially asked the question that you take this in stride as well, this is just another teaching point. And again, it's something that they're going to face at some point and just make sure they're prepared and ready for it. One other thing I would just add to Tony is, how old was his son, or is his son did he say? But when it comes to school, because that's something we've talked about, schools are, the curriculum hasn't been thoughtful in about 100,000 years right?

It's not keeping up with the modern child and is definitely not thinking about who boys are. So a lot of the curriculum, how the day is structured, doesn't work. For boys. Boys need to be moving, thinking, girls are different, right? But everybody is taught the same. And I'm sure that aggressive label at school, which you hear that a lot among schools labeling black kids, kids of color early, that is a dilemma. Because once you get tracked or marked then so I would say to Tony, then that means that As a parent, you gotta be involved in school. You know, because you can talk to your kid till they're blue in the face, that that's important.

But it is important, especially if you have a black son, for them to know you and to know that I will come up there and I will. Come up there in a proper way. But this black boy, mixed boy has someone looking out for him. And I think that that becomes even more critical Mm-hmm. For boys. For mixed race boys, for black boys, that parents, you can love your son, but especially when they're young and they haven't developed their own voice, that's what being an involved parent is. And for a father to be involved, that's a big deal.

So that may mean go to some of these field trips, make sure you go to all, because Barack went to every parent teacher conference their entire life, in the White House, you name it. He was going to go. Um motorcade motorcycles swap men, everybody, we were there shutting down mass Avenue, getting to this. That means a lot. It meant a lot to the girls, but it said something to the school. It's like it's not just me, but their father knows what's going on. So you guys are engaged fathers, which is beautiful, being engaged in that school structure, just knowing.

That didn't mean you wanna have to go up to the school and tear stuff up. And it's just like- but I will. But I will if I need to. I will! I will, and that's implied in my presence. You know, one thing I will say, I know exactly what you mean. My daughter's going to sixth grade. But since she's been in kindergarten, I've been going to her school. I put us on Instagram. Don't let daddy come. Yeah yeah yeah. But I'm not going there to tell somebody, but I'm letting you know. This child here is love. That's right. And my daddy's going be here, you know what I mean?

And also to one more thing, I think I'm okay with aggression because I think you can learn to tone that back, but I would rather be aggressive than have my child be walked over and disrespected and made fun of. Like I said, we can tune like aggressiveness in sports. We can tune that back. But if you don't have that in you, that's hard to teach. So I'm OK with aggressiveness as long as it's following the rules because that's something you can form and structure and pull back if you need to. But on the flip side, if you're someone that just gets walked over, that is going make me go crazy.

Yeah yeah. And that makes me want to address some part of the question that Tony said that he was he was worried that he he was imposing his lived experience on the kid. And what I would say to Tony, embrace your lived experience, because that's going to help little Tony later in life, because it is it is powerful to know your parent has gone through something similar and made it out. Experience is the best teaching. That's right. It's absolutely, absolutely. And so. Good question. Yeah. Shout out to Tony, man. Yeah, yeah, thank you for that.

Good luck to you and your son, man. Yeah. And the fact that he's asking the question means he's involved. He cares, yeah. We need more fathers like that. And I think that's, you know, you guys are modeling that. I mean, I love the way you talk about your kids, how you are, you're not bystander parents, that you are actively thinking about how to raise them. And that's not the mother's job exclusively. It really matters. And you've seen it in a broken home or not divorced or whatever. Kids can understand that, it didn't work out, right?

Things don't work, people don't get along sometimes, but that doesn't mean that you're not present. That doesn't, that doesn' mean you get scared away and money shouldn't dictate that. Kids do not care about how much money you have. I don't care if you are unemployed, whether you were in jail once before, whether you are on crack at some point. Kids still want to see you in their lives, just trying, and I think that you guys model that in the way that you are actively trying to think about the words you say, how you show up in your kids' lives.

And I think it's important for our listeners to see that up close from some all-the-smoke athlete, folks who could tell like it is still be engaged in sports. Still know a lot about a lot of things and still show up as good men and good fathers. So we are grateful. Thank you very much. Keep doing what you're doing, guys. You got a couple fans here. Thank you for taking the time. Yeah yeah.

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "MATT BARNES & STEPHEN JACKSON on Fatherhood, Growth, and Life After the NBA | IMO"?

Michelle Obama (Host), Matt Barnes (Guest), Stephen Jackson (Guest).

What is "MATT BARNES & STEPHEN JACKSON on Fatherhood, Growth, and Life After the NBA | IMO" about?

Matt Barnes and Stephen Jackson discuss their experiences with fatherhood, the importance of parental respect, and their personal growth after retiring from the NBA, sharing insights on family dynamics and the challenges of raising multiple children. The conversation highlights the value of a supportive family environment and the role it plays in shaping their perspectives on parenting.

What is mentioned in this Michelle Obama episode?

8 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including NBA, All the Smoke, AAU, Sacramento, Kevin Johnson, Golden State Warriors. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "MATT BARNES & STEPHEN JACKSON on Fatherhood, Growth, and Life After the NBA | IMO"?

The episode runs 1 h 18 min; the transcript is about 15,208 words in 135 timestamped sections.

More from Michelle Obama

About this transcript: the episode's spoken words as captioned on YouTube, split into timestamped sections. Reclip.Me locates every person, work and idea in the text, keeps the time it is first named, and quotes the words around it verbatim. Last updated February 2, 2026.