Transcript

Michelle Obama on Style & Substance with Farah Jasmine Griffin and Nina Garcia | The Look

From Michelle Obama · Episode page · Watch on YouTube

· 1 h 20 min · 11,648 words · 106 timestamped sections

This is the full, timestamped transcript of "Michelle Obama on Style & Substance with Farah Jasmine Griffin and Nina Garcia | The Look", an episode of Michelle Obama published November 5, 2025 (1 h 20 min, about 11,648 words). It mentions 10 people, works and ideas, including Farah Jasmine Griffin, Nina Garcia, Isabel Toledo, Ruby Bridges, Elizabeth Eckford.

What this episode is about

The discussion centers on Michelle Obama's fashion evolution and its significance beyond mere aesthetics, emphasizing diversity, inclusion, and the broader implications of representation within American culture. Obama, alongside esteemed scholars, reflects on how style can embody empowerment and inspire collective progress as a nation, particularly for Black women.

Key takeaways

  • Fashion transcends fabric; it's a narrative of identity and resilience, redefining who we are as a nation.
  • Michelle Obama's legacy proves clothing can be a powerful language for breaking stereotypes and defining self-identity.
  • Diversity isn't just a checkbox; it's the canvas of our shared humanity, painting a future with fewer enemies.
  • Timing is everything: after establishing her voice, Michelle embraces fashion, flipping the script on how we define her.
  • Black women in leadership face unique scrutiny, yet Michelle turned expectations into empowerment, crafting her own narrative.

Who speaks in this episode?

What is discussed, and when

  1. – 10:00: Nina Garcia, Farah Jasmine Griffin, Alloy Women
  2. – 20:00: Farah Jasmine Griffin, Christy Love
  3. – 40:00: Elizabeth Eckford, Ruby Bridges
  4. – 50:00: Indeed, Alloy Health
  5. – 1:00:00: Isabel Toledo

Notable quotes from "Michelle Obama on Style & Substance with Farah Jasmine Griffin and Nina Garcia | The Look"

  • I'm today's moderator, Nina Garcia, editor-in-chief of Elle, and it is a pleasure to be joined today by Farrah Jasmine Griffin, who is an esteemed professor of.
    about Nina Garcia · at
  • I think it really set the stage and really explained so much, so really, I really enjoyed so much.
    about Farah Jasmine Griffin · at
  • There were adults, there was Diana Ross, there was Christy Love, there were.
    about Christy Love · at
  • Know, what some of the young women wore in the civil rights movement. Or you think of little ruby bridges, those first were one of my images, iconic images that almost mirrors your suit is Elizabeth Eckford.
    about Ruby Bridges · at
  • Indeed Career Scout can help you land your next role fast.
    about Indeed · at
  • This episode of In My Opinion is brought to you by Alloy Health.
    about Alloy Health · at
  • Who is or was the rest in peace, such a good friend, but such an incredible talent that didn't really get the.
    about Isabel Toledo · at
  • But you know what's changed the game for my family is this amazing little machine called Mill.
    about Mill · at

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

  • Farah Jasmine Griffin — Person · Guest / referenced expert (foreword author) · 3 mentions · first at
    Provides historical and cultural analysis framing Michelle Obama’s style as part of Black cultural politics, respectability, representation, and American history.
  • Nina Garcia — Person · Moderator / host (episode moderator) · 2 mentions · first at
    Guides the conversation, asks interpretive questions about fashion symbolism, and connects Michelle Obama’s choices to fashion industry context.
  • Isabel Toledo — Person · Referenced designer (symbolic fashion moment) · 1 mention · first at
    Cited for the iconic inauguration coat moment; discussed as an extraordinary talent who did not receive proportional recognition, highlighting representation and industry gatekeeping.
  • Ruby Bridges — Person · Referenced historical figure (civil rights symbolism) · 1 mention · first at
    Referenced as a civil-rights-era image associated with innocence and courage; supports the discussion of how clothing color (white) carries layered historical meaning.
  • Elizabeth Eckford — Person · Referenced historical figure (civil rights symbolism) · 1 mention · first at
    Cited as an iconic image of dignity under racist hostility; used to interpret the symbolism of wearing white on a political stage.
    Know, what some of the young women wore in the civil rights movement. Or you think of little ruby bridges, those first were one of my images, iconic images that almost mirrors your suit is Elizabeth Eckford.
  • Christy Love — Person · Referenced fictional character (representation touchstone) · 1 mention · first at
    Invoked as a rare Black female image in popular media during Michelle Obama’s youth, illustrating scarcity of relatable fashion/identity models.

Sponsors

  • Indeed — Company · Sponsor · 3 mentions · first at
    Sponsor of the podcast episode, promoting their Career Scout feature
  • Alloy Health — Company · Sponsor · 1 mention · first at
    Sponsor of the podcast episode, promoting their menopause care services
  • Mill — Product · Sponsor · 3 mentions
    Sponsor of the podcast episode, promoting their food scrap recycling machine
  • Alloy Women — Company · Sponsor · 1 mention · first at
    Sponsor of the podcast episode
    This episode is brought to you by Rivian and Alloy Women.

Full transcript with timestamps

This isn't just about dresses and fabrics and designers. It never was. It's about the next chapter of who we are, not just as black people or as black women, but as a nation. We have women in charge, people running offices. Diversity is important. You know, diversity and inclusion, it's not just a catchword. It's not about economics and people getting jobs. It's, about us defining. Creating spaces where we now know one another so we cannot be one another's enemies And I know this is a book about fashion But it I hope it's a reminder of what could what was what was and what do it can be and what can and be what it can be.

This episode is brought to you by Rivian and Alloy Women. Hello and welcome to The Look, a special series on IMO based on Michelle Obama's latest book which is available for purchase now. I'm today's moderator, Nina Garcia, editor-in-chief of Elle, and it is a pleasure to be joined today by Farrah Jasmine Griffin, who is an esteemed professor of English and comparative literature at Columbia University and wrote the foreword for this wonderful book. And of course, the former first lady, Michelle Obama, a dear friend, true inspiration, and the reason we are all here today.

Welcome ladies. Today's topic is Mrs. Obama's style evolution on the world stage from childhood to where we are now. Thank you so much, Nina. I was going to actually also speak to Farrah and tell you how wonderful your foreword was, how insightful, and how I felt it was so important to put into context Michelle's legacy in her style, not only in American history, but Black culture. I think it really set the stage and really explained so much, so really, I really enjoyed so much. And there was one part that I want to mention because I really love this line, the look like the woman was bold powerful forward-looking visionary and empowering for everyone who dares to believe in the possibility of better tomorrows.

That was beautiful. You're a beautiful writer. Thank you. Beautiful writer. Thank you. Thank you, it was so easy to write about Michelle because she just makes it easy. She's a woman of style and substance. And so the fun part is the style, but the substance is the concrete part that she always gave us as First Lady and since then. So that sentence just came naturally when I thought about her time there at the White but also her legacy. That she stands in a particular culture and moment, but for all of us and for everyone.

Michelle, you have stayed away from the conversation about style and clothing and what that represented. Why now? Yeah, I think it's time. From a sort of strategic standpoint, my thinking when I was First Lady was fashion is the monster that ate up New York. It could be. It's fun. It's interesting. It's something that I value, I cherish, but I also knew that fashion could define me before I defined myself. Um, and as you know, at the outset of me being introduced and introducing myself to the country into the world, there were people who were trying to define me.

You know, I, I felt the danger of um letting other people write the narrative. Once I kind of broke through and entered, I thought, yeah, I've gotta let me lead and I've got to lead with substance. And I know how important fashion is, but if we succumb to that conversation, potentially that's all I'll be, is the woman in the dress. So I thought let's put it on the back burner in terms of daily topics. But we always had a strategy for how I wanted to approach fashion and what fashion could be. But I thought it was much more powerful to wait and let that conversation happen later.

Now I'm almost a decade out of the White House, two books already written. And I feel like now I think the world knows me. They know who I am, they know my heart, they know, my history, they know my purpose, they know my mind. So now it's time to talk about fashion. I like to ask Farah what moved you in those days of the administration? You talk a lot in the foreword about the context of being a black woman, being the first woman to be the first lady and how black women were perceived. Could you expand on that? Because I found that very interesting. And there was a lot of pressure riding on Mrs. Obama, Michelle Obama, to carry that.

And I mean, that must have been, that was a of work and a lot responsibility, but you put it into a context that was very interesting Yes, we wish we lived in a world where Michelle Obama could simply be an individual stepping into that role. That would be ideal, but we live in a role where we have a history and a lot of baggage that comes with that. She stepped into the role as the first black first lady. There were people who were resistant to that concept. There were just people who are unfamiliar with it. And then there were people who were so proud, but they also had a.

Ton of expectations. So there was a kind of weight of the world on her. And everything, every move, every word, every gesture, and yes, everything she wore would be under a kind of scrutiny that all first ladies are under scrutiny. But for an African American woman to occupy that role, who is bringing. With her legacy of stereotypes and stereotypes about what black women are and could be, stereotypes that have come out of the mouths of some of our politicians, that she is resisting that, but not in a way that looks like she's fighting, in a ways that looks she's just casually being who she is.

I think that that's what I had in mind, is how does she navigate that, and she it so well. And style and clothing and fashion was one language that she used to navigate those treacherous territories. I want to go back to the beginning because part of what is wonderful about this book is that you share some images that I had never seen from your childhood, even from your prom. And I know that there are stylists involved, but even back then, she had it. She had the style. How do you feel, Michelle, when you look back?

Picture of you in the prom because that was like such a moment for everyone, right? The prom date. How do you feel about her sense of self? How does that? Well, it's really interesting. That was my senior prom, and I still haven't found my junior prom picture, but both of those dresses, I designed in my head. I knew the material, the fabric I wanted, and for that prom dress is the champagne color. And I think to myself, what did I know about champagne? And my mom made the dress, okay, because my mom, like so many...

Minority women, women of color, black women, I came from a family of seamstresses. My great-grandmother was a seamstress. Most of my clothes as a child were sewn, which was a source of great stress and tension between me and my mother because I always wanted the store bought things. I wanted the Gloria Vanderbilt jeans. I wanted, you know, so I was always a little resentful. But when it came time to prom, I thought, I know we probably can't afford the kind of dress that I would like, but I knew what I wanted. So we went to the fabric store, picked out a couple of buttermilk fabric patterns.

The top was separate from the skirt because I couldn't find, that was a skirt and top set. And this skirt was just a straight pencil skirt. That buttoned all the way up to the side. Yeah, your idea was a little sexy. Right, you could button it so I could leave the house with it, two more buttons, and then when I got in the car, I could unbutton and have it a little more sexy. And then the jacket underneath, I knew I wanted it all to be one color, one fabric. And in my little mind, my young mind, I know that's what I wanted the dresses to be.

Very simple, classic. Timeless. I didn't want to do anything trendy. And I kind of think, I do wonder, how did I know that? My mom said, my mother said, well, you just always had a lot of opinions about who you were and what you wanted to be, and maybe that's it. But I also had an eye for color and fabrics, and I knew what I wanted. But don't you think... Deviating into this conversation about seamstress, because I grew up in Latin America. And for us, you know, a seamstresses was very important. We couldn't travel sometimes and get clothes.

So the seamstresse was a very important part of the dress you were gonna wear or something that you had to fix or hand me down from your older sister that you were going to. I feel makes you creative because you have the opportunity to kind of think about it and dictate instead of buying off the rack, you're really thinking about the process. It gives you the liberty of decision. Absolutely absolutely. And I was tall, I was very thin always. So you needed your clothes to be... Clothes to be fitted. So yeah, the whole notion of tailoring and the importance of, because back then, there weren't tall sizes.

Now designers clothing brands do a much better job of providing options for longer inseams, longer arms, but that wasn't the case when I was growing up. And it was very frustrating to pick up something from the rack and have it just be that inch or half inch too short. I was notorious for rolling up all my sleeves because I wasn't going to have it look short. So the trick of bunching everything up had to work for me. And so I appreciated the notion that, you know, tailoring people with the skills to make things that fit your body were important and valued.

Farrah, I know from your foreword that your mother was a seamstress. Absolutely. How did that inform your... It informed everything and like Michelle, I come from generations of seamstresses, mother, grandmother, great aunt, they were all seamstress and it absolutely informed my sense of quality of clothing, clothing, self-expression, like getting to pick what you wanted. Although sometimes you prefer the store-bought clothing. Always. You always wanted what you couldn't have. Now we want the opposite. Exactly. That this could be made for you, that if you wanted something, someone would create it just for you according to what you desired.

And that it was also, I think, giving you a sense of self and a sense of style early on. And I think that we all have that, too. You look back and you say, oh, I always liked that cut of dress. You know, something about the way I felt in it or the way looked in it carries all the way through. Was there a... Fashion inspiration for you when I was younger when you were younger that you looked up to you looked Was there someone that you? You know, the images were limited. You know there was never a real direct connection because there were no models in media that looked like me, a young black girl.

There were adults, there was Diana Ross, there was Christy Love, there were. The Diane Carroll, but they were older people. So yeah, this is why representation matters. I mean, I felt it growing up. The teenagers were Marsha Brady, Jan Brady, the Partridge family, those were the after school shows. So when you don't see anybody like you, I can honestly say it was hard for me to sort of look at their their fashion and the way they carried themselves as a direct model. I also think that going to a magnet high school in Chicago, it opened me up to a whole nother part of the city.

It was a school that drew students from all over the city, so it was the first time I ran into kids, not just of all races, but all socioeconomic brackets. There were wealthy black kids at that school who had access to designer clothes and had the best sneakers. So I think when I went to high school, I started seeing my peers and some just a bit older than me who had a different set of resources. It was also interesting that my commute to high School took me from the South side of Chicago through downtown Chicago.

To the west side. So my daily commute often took me through the downtown area. And because of that, our half-day sessions or our lunch breaks happened downtown. So we would go into the higher end malls, Water Tower Place, Bondwood Teller, Marshall Fields. So it those kind of atmospheric kind of experiences those... Chance opportunities, the high school I went to, I think that helped to shape my sense of self and fashion more than any one image that I saw on television. Farrah, I find this so interesting that you write in the forward about black girls.

Black girls are reared to represent the race well, to counter stereotypes, to be respectable. And at the same time, African American culture prices and prioritizes individual creativity. How have black women managed this tension? That's a great question. Yeah. And I'm sure it's the tension that you felt all along, right? Especially those of us who were sent off to the magnet schools, right, represent the race well. And it is a kind of respectability in how you present yourself, how you speak, but certainly how you dress and certain things you don't wear and certain ways of wearing things that you don't do.

And yet we are a culture that prizes innovation and creativity. So I think the tension is, where are you creative? Where are you trendy, but not too trendy, not too faddish, not too over the line. I think that's a tension that many black women in the public eye have to manage, more so entertainers manage it, but certainly no one had to deal with it in the same way that no one had ever occupied the position. But in a way, that creativity that we push back on or you push back in the black culture is also so incredible and has become so important and so defining.

It defines American style. It defines them and it's brought so much to fashion, right? So it's really such a paradox that we want to push back on that when it really is. So important, and you speak so beautifully about growing, what it was growing up in the South Side of Chicago, where it was, I am sure there was so much inspiration in the streets, in the women who go to church, in The Hats, and there is a lot of dignity and poise in how black women put themselves together. Yeah, it's it's actually very, very interested in and very respectful.

But we also counter, we have to counter the pressure, the feeling that we have to explain ourselves, who we are, what we look like, how we're shaped, because the industry puts forward a model of what's ideal. And that model has been consistent throughout American history. It is generally a very thin, blonde pale white woman. I think more recently, in the last decade or so, there's all the conversation about cultural appropriation and now the figure of the typical black girl is now coveted. People are doing butt implants and. They're, you know, they're wearing their hair in braids.

And, you know, and so there's that debate among people that now folks are embracing parts of our culture that made us feel other and owning it as part of their style. It's just interesting. I'm hoping that this younger generation of girls of color feel more empowered, they feel more beautiful because they're seeing other races take on that style. But we didn't grow up that way. We didn't grew up with that at all. We grew up the opposite. Yeah, I think that any kind of standard of, because that standard that you talk about is very confining, not only it was most confining for us as black girls who did not fit it, but it's confining so many women, like black women, Asian women, Latina women, but a lot of white women, it's so confining.

And I think any one standard that says you have to look this way leaves out the vast majority of women. And so what I found so inspiring as I was looking through the years that you were in the White House was that there was this democratization, this kind of opening up of what you could be. It wasn't like you have to be this. It was just bring your best of who you are. Like, you know, just like if Mrs. Obama can embrace who she is and be beautiful. Then you can embrace who you are and be beautiful. That's where I think the hard work is. And especially for girls, you don't have to look this way.

You can look like you. Carl, welcome to the podcast. I'm so happy to have you here. You look so cute. You know I love you dearly. Aw, thanks Michelle. How long have we been working together now? We have been working together, it's been almost 16 years. I'm doing my makeup, making sure that I'm beat, got my lashes intact. It's been a fast 15 years. Really has. And I think I've spent more time with you than most people on the planet. I feel the same way. Yeah, and it's been a good stretch of time, but I wanted you to talk a little bit more about Carl.

I mean, I know your story. We've spent so much time together. I've gotten to know you. You are, besides being an amazing makeup artist, you are just a phenomenal person. And I just want you to share a little about your upbringing, how you got into makeup, all that good stuff. Okay. Well, thanks for having me. Happy to be here. So my first client was my mother. I used to watch her- And Paige. And Paige, I used watch her doing her makeup all the time. And one day I asked her if I could do her makeup because I thought I could do a better job.

She obliged and she started asking me to do it a lot. How old were you? I was around 14, 15 years old. I never really thought that was a job or could even be a career. Until I moved to Washington, D.C. And I got a job working in a store. They sold skin care, hair care, and they had a makeup counter. How were you when you... I think it was in my 20s, and when folks would come up to the makeup counter, I would insert myself to help them with a new lipstick or find a foundation that matched and just even do their makeup.

One of the customers was a editor from a magazine, and she asked me if I'd like to help her on her wedding day to do her makeup. Wow. So I said I would love to do that. Thank you. What'd you think? Were you nervous or were you feeling confident by No, I wasn't at all. It's kind of like behind the scenes. That's where I feel very comfortable. So I did her makeup and when the magazine came out, there was a picture of me in it and I ripped it out and I thought, what am I going to do with this? So I went to the Four Seasons at the Five Star Hotel in Georgetown and I asked, are you hiring a makeup artist?

They got the owner of the salon. We met over tea and had a conversation. She asked me if I'd ever worked in a salon. I said no. She said, Are you a prima donna? I said, what is that? She hired me on the spot. Uhhh... I WON- I worked there for 15 years, having the opportunity to work with a lot of dynamic people. That's when I received the email from the White House asking me if I would like to do your makeup. Mm-hmm, because by way of our team, we were looking for a new makeup artist. Your name kept coming up again and again, because, by then, you had become one of the top makeup artists, you might not brag on yourself, in DC.

Because by then you had had all this experience doing celebrity clients, doing other people's weddings. So, your name was at the top of the list. I love it. So I feel like I was sort of like on an audition. They sent three pictures of how you preferred your makeup. So when I went into the White House, I thought it was a hoax at first. But I went to the White house and I was escorted upstairs to the salon where I stood at complete attention from my military background. You were a military kid. I was a military Kid.

So I'm standing at attention, you walk in the room and you asked me how I'm doing. I said, I'm nervous as crap, ma'am. And you laughed. It's like I get you something to drink I said, I can't drink and do your makeup, ma'am. You said, I'm speaking of water. The room laughed. It kind of broke the ice and the next thing I know, I was being invited to go on your first solo tour as first lady to Haiti and Mexico City. Yeah, a baptism by fire, as they'd say, right? I mean, it was like a very solemn experience to where we went to a joyous experience. So it was two big things, two different things at one time. And on the flight home, I was asked if I'd like to complete trifecta.

I said yes on the spot. We got it. Yes, I do. And I tell this story because you don't have to rip out a page out of a magazine or go into a salon and ask if they're hiring. You can simply just list your services on Airbnb. Mm-hmm. And if you want to find me or my team, you can find us on Airbnb. And that is so cool. It is so, so cool! It's one of the new features of Airbnb where you can contract out for a whole range of services in a site. I think it's a clever addition, you know, and it's not just makeup, but you can get a masseuse, a chef.

That's amazing that somebody can access one of top celebrities in the country through Airbnb to do their makeup. Airbnb.com services. You got it. And hey, just putting in a pitch, it's like, Carl, you are so good with all kinds of clients. I mean, people may think, oh, he does make up for Michelle Obama, but the spectrum of your experiences with race and age and class and background, you were able to work with and everyone. So anybody who is smart enough to contact Airbnb. Slash Services. There you go to get Carl way to do their makeup is a lucky duck Thank you Michelle I am so proud of you.

Thank you. Well, we got great. Many more years and excitement together, and I'm happy to have you by my side. I'm happy to be here. I want to transition from your early years in the public eye, one of the first times the country saw you on a national stage was the 2004 Democratic National Convention where you wore an all white, when you were all white. Can you tell us the story behind this look? I found that very interesting and relatable in so many levels. Yeah, I wrote about this in the book. I mean, just giving people a sense of, there was my life before the White House, which was very much the life of a working mother with a partner that traveled often.

I had a full-time big job. I have two little girls. My husband decided that he was going to be a politician, which is like, oh my God, really? Can you Just. One other career. I mean, there's so much you're very talented, you know, you could do almost anything. Are you sure politics is what you want to do? And then he got the opportunity to speak at Kerry's convention. And I literally didn't think about it. I didn't have time to think about the speech. I know he was writing it and I was listening to drafts and I was like, Oh, that sounds good.

It's going to be exciting. But I didn't make the connection. Because I was busy, you know, dropping the girls off at ballet and doing pickup and making dinner and getting to my job. And it was maybe a week before the convention where I realized, oh, I've got to go with him and then I've gotta go on stage with him afterwards and be the wife and wave. I was like, oh my God, I have nothing to wear. You know, I can't just take one of my suits. I think I was working for the university at the time. So, I didn't have my lawsuits.

You know, so I made one of those mad lunch hour dashes to probably Bloomingdale's. And I just happened upon this beautiful taffeta suit that looked white. It was white, but it had a sheen to it. And I thought this could be pretty. You know it could pop on a stage of primarily blue. But this was all done within an hour. So I took it off the rack with a couple of other women, tried it on. The biggest thing was that it fit. I wasn't really thinking color. I wasn't making all the decisions that we would later make as First Lady about colors and background and I just wasn't in that mindset.

The suit fit, I bought it and I took with us to Boston and I write about how crazy choice it was to pick white. Because I didn't come with a backup, which I later learned to always do. It was really instinctively, it was what the cut of it, the color worked with my complexion. It would feel sophisticated, but not too elevated, right? I mean, there were little subtle things in my mind, but there was no strategy. There was no thought about what this meant because I think it needed to mean anything. He was just giving a speech.

We didn't know that it would, that that speech would be the speech that would catapult him to national attention. That was not the assignment. Farrah, you saw a connection obviously and it made me subconsciously believe it was a connection. Can you talk to me about that? Because I think that was very important. Yeah, so, you know, he gives this amazing speech and immediately people are thinking, we think we've seen a future president and then there are those of us who said, well, we think if he's the future president, we've see a future first lady and this is good.

She looks great in white. I mean, the white was beautiful. And, you know, just thinking about what the color white means on the political stage, I think people often think about the democratic women wearing white for the suffragist. But for those of us who come out of kind of black historical tradition, you think about white also being, you know, what some of the young women wore in the civil rights movement. Or you think of little ruby bridges, those first were one of my images, iconic images that almost mirrors your suit is Elizabeth Eckford of the Little Rock Nine.

So elegant in that- So beautiful. Beautiful. In that white short-sleeve waist. You know, waste and just calm and cool as she's surrounded by this crowd. And so we also saw that in the white, you know? Just all of this. Oh, yeah, she can, she can carry this legacy. She can carry the history. So we were, okay, that's our future First Lady, I I think you guys met at that point. No, no, you have parallel. Yeah, but we had not yet met right I like how you write that you had a checklist that day I think he had to buy a present for your daughter You have to get the food.

And that this was the last thing on your list. And so many women can relate to that, right? Your family is first, your work, and you are in that situation where you have an event or a wedding, whatever that is. I think we can all relate to the moment. But you continue to relate to a moment for a long time. You are scrambling to, like, what am I going to wear? There is a beautiful photo on the book. And she tell us about how she came to your house and you pulled something really out of the closet. But if you see it, it is the chicest look.

Oh, you know, one of my, well, the story you talk about is that after this major speech at the Democratic National Convention, Barack did become a national, nationally known name. So much so that the queen of daytime talk called our office and wanted to do an exclusive interview in O Magazine, and she wanted to come to our house. And you can't imagine what that was like. Yeah, I'm thinking, oh my God, Oprah is coming to my house? I was like, first of all, we need to paint. Where do I start? It's like, where do I star?

And you see in the picture, the kids were little. They were little, and she wanted to meet Barack in his element and see his family. And her team said this was a casual interview. We wanted to be a day in the life. You know, this is not a big, we were then later invited to appear on her show and she did an interview with us on the show, but this was just the first meeting. And I thought, well, it's casual. So I have a pencil Capri length pants and a simple crew neck sweater in pink, just something that I would wear on any given weekend.

And the girls had some pinkish, so I sort of tried to coordinate what they were wearing. So we were in the same color scheme. That's all I thought about. But that was thrown on me. And that was the first time I thought, well, this is going to be a hassle. This public image thing, because things come up, and you just never know. I mean, the office calls like this is all that I was doing, like, well on Saturday Oprah's coming to your house and. You know, I'd start to get into arguments with my husband scheduling people and it's like, you've got to give me a little more time than this. I have to get myself ready.

I have two little girls. I'm working. It was just, you know, those early days were just, it would be the hassle that any woman who is working and has children would understand, you know that we as women, we have the burden of doing our work, but then showing up. In a certain way that takes time for us to. And you speak about how your husband only had to come in, change his tie, and he was ready to go. And he brags about, I've worn these same khaki pants for 10 years, and I was like, don't brag about that. Don't say that.

Yes. And are you ready? It's been 10 minutes. Are you ready. It's like, do you know what I'm doing in here? And I'm getting the girls ready. So, you know, those days, that was the beginning of understanding that if this is gonna continue, I've gotta have a plan. I have to have a bigger strategy. And you did have a plans. Tell me about, because you had, you built, it wasn't a uniform, but you knew what shapes fit, what looked good. Tell me how you dealt with those two. So as. After he launched his presidential campaign, and I slowly but surely become an integral part of it, where the campaign has me going out on my own, primarily in Iowa, because that's the first primary state, and it's sort of the bellwether of who's going to be the leading nominee.

So we spent a lot of time the summer before that, the primaries in Iowa, just because no one knew who Barack Obama was. And I was an integral part of that. I would go out for almost three days a week. And so I realized under this kind of schedule, I can't run to Bloomingdale's. I can bit by bit just pick up clothes like a normal person. So I was introduced at the time and I can remember who introduced me to the first designer I really worked with, which was a wonderful woman, Maria Pinto. And she was a Chicago based designer, had her own design studio with seamstresses.

And that got me through the whole campaign season. And it also helped that she had a ready-made set of seamstress. So they could make the pants the right length. They could. Make the hymns, they could take it. So I tell people that the clothes and the designs were beautiful, but the fit was always impeccable. Is a tip. Right? Farah, in those times when you were seeing this what were your thoughts back then about her style and about her representation? I think that you know proud, and really loving the way that she was modernizing the, you know, at that time during the campaign, modernizing, the candidate's wife.

Just as interested in her as a person, you know, that this was somebody who was interesting, who was educated, who had something to say, who was thoughtful and who looked good, but also looked like she was involved and engaged, not like she was, you, know, just this Barbie doll off on the side, but she was on the ground talking to little kids, lifting things up, doing things. And so, you know, there was a sense of style, but it was a style of being active and mobile in the world. And so the style was always a part of this larger story.

It wasn't the only story, it was part of a larger story Okay, by 2008, Farrah, you write, you, Michelle, had been put through the gauntlet, labeled angry, unpatriotic emasculating. In other words, you were smart and educated and very successful career woman. How did you feel to have so many outsized voices defining you? And, and really going after you in such a way. And why? Why was that? Happened. I mean, personally, it was shocking first and foremost, because those depictions were coming from many media writers who were not with me, right?

I mean so it was really interesting. I was a campaigner. I wasn't drawing much media attention, but I was drawing a lot of crowds. I mean, I went from talking to people in their living rooms and backyards to talking to people in a packed high school gym. Authentic. It just sort of grew, you know? And I was doing this for almost a year before the media got hold and started writing about it until Barack's opponents, not just in the general election, but in the primary, right? So fellow Democrats started. You know, saying, okay we're running against a candidate and his spouse who are both very powerful and so we got to cut somebody off at the knees, right?

That's what it felt like. It felt like now people know I'm out there and so then it just becomes a game of this can't be this good. So now let me pick apart every word she says. In a way that I, you know, so you imagine I'm doing this, the crowds are engaged and laughing and enjoying it. It's all these campaign events are upbeat. And then the first story that comes out that says that I'm angry and that I have an ax to grind, it was so counter from what was really happening, that it was a shock that it could happen.

It's like, oh, so people can just write what they want. They don't even have to be there. They don't even have see for themselves. They were looking at the tone. They would take pictures of me making a joke with a face that was a little different and they'd call it a scowl. And I was like, well, I was in the middle of telling a joke at that picture. So it was truly shocking. It made me want to initially just walk away from it because it was the politics that I knew. I mean, I shocked that it was happening so blatantly but I- I was also kind of like, yeah, this is what politics is.

This is why I don't like it. This is what I will never do it. So yeah, it was scary because it's like, wow, if I am not careful, I will be defined in such a way that I won't recognize myself. Um, but fortunately, instead of backing away, I said, I got to get smarter, you know? I mean, it really woke me up to, oh, I've got to really, really I have to figure out how to do this thing in a way that is smart and strategic. And I have think ahead of the critics. It's like, I should have known. I kind of felt to myself, I shouldn't have known that this was going to happen.

But being an Iowa, people made me feel like, well, people accept you for who you are. So I had to keep remembering to separate out the media and the politics from how regular people are. That face-to-face, people are accepting. But through the lens of the media, social media, that's where the distortion can happen. If people don't know you, they believe that image. So I knew that I had defined myself before they did. That that was a race. It was a race for me to define myself and that I had to think about every move, every word I said, every shoe I wore, every piece of jewelry I put on, I had to be thoughtful and strategic, which ultimately wound up helping me.

It helped me go into the White House really ready. To take a hold of every aspect of what I was going to do, make decisions for myself and own it throughout the eight years and that included fashion.

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Why do you think the lens on Michelle was sharper than any of the other ladies? Was the first Black woman. I don't want to belittle the fact that other first ladies had sharp lenses. For sure. You know, Hillary Clinton had a really sharp lens on her. Other first ladies, and even Nancy Reagan had a sharp lens. So any woman in that position has a sharp lens, but there was something- But especially women. Yeah, yeah, we're really- I feel like they really go for the women and they go really... And they go mean. They go mean because they could go... And they'd go after how we look. Exactly. Exactly.

They were very mean. And then Michelle's had a particular racial tinge to it. She was a terrorist. She was the angry black woman. Sometimes I'd be like, oh my God, can you at least be original? Do you have to stick into the bag of old stereotypes? Be original. Come up with something new. Doesn't she inspire your creativity? But I think that so there was there was that tendency to just be cruel to women anyway and to put them under the microscope. Yeah, we see it today. We see it all the time. In politics. Yeah. I mean, I'm not in it in a certain way, but the way that some men feel like they can talk about women on either side, you know?

It's unbelievable. One of the things I wrote is if when when. People want to control women. The first thing they do is go after our beauty. Yes. The way we look. The way that we look, and that's true across the board, across the political aisle. Women feeling like they have to show up in this one Barbie doll kind of image to afford being attacked. This happens to young actresses, young women on social media. It is the of the culture of the world to put women in their place. By attacking their physical being and is vicious.

It's absolutely vicious, yeah. And so, I mean, I think, yeah, it's just, it hasn't stopped, unfortunately. It didn't begin with me, and it's not. It's not Indian. So, we're going to go into winning the White House, 2008, you won. Had you, by then you knew that you needed help. I needed to be ready, yeah. And this is the formation of the trifecta. Tell me a little bit about the trifector, I love that. I love having an expression. But I also love for the audience that is watching and that you can say it and I can tell you, all of these women that have to be public out there need help.

It's not possible to do it alone if you have a family, if you have a job, if it's just not possible even for myself. And I am in fashion. And there are moments where I'm like, I don't have the time, I have a family, too. Yes, this looks great on a runway, but in reality, it is a real, you needed the help. Yeah oh yeah. So you found your trifecta. Tell me a little bit about them before. Before we go move into that day. The trifecta, the trifectas, it's hair, makeup, styling, right? And trifectae has looked different throughout this time of me and the public eye, from the White House to today.

I've had a couple of really good makeup artists, some who've lasted, some Mm-hmm. We're in for a year or two hairdressers who were there during the White House, but not with me now. I've mentioned all the amazing stylists in my life from Maria Pinto to Ekram, introduced me to Jason Wu, and introduced me to my ultimate stylist and co-author of this book, Meredith Coop. There's a, the beautiful thing about the look for me is not just telling my fashion story, but it introduces people to some of the members of Trifecta. And you get to hear Meredith's story, how we came to meet her background, because so many people who work with us, you guys, they were young, you know, they were in their twenties when they started, they didn't really know what they were getting into.

A lot of it is described in the book. It's The process is fascinating. Really opening the curtains behind the scenes, what it takes to be that public persona and to have that responsibility that you carried so well. Because I think that really when you look back, and I remember when you were in office, being fascinated by your choices, being, and I wasn't alone. It was the entire country, then it was the entire world, because you were able to take what clothes, and they weren't just about clothes. It was really style with the substance helping you communicate.

And that was all intentional. Yes, communicate not only your husband's vision, right? But your own values. Your own values. I mean, in everything you talk the talk, but you walk the walk right? It helps to I mean, it starts with the vision of the president, right? Everything aligned, but not only the clothes, the art, the home, the music, who was invited into the White House, what designers got pulled, it all had to send a message. The decision of who was going to do my inaugural gown, Jason Wu, that was an affirmative decision.

But the power of this platform in every way, from fashion to food to the events we did, it was about opening up the aperture of opportunity. And I wanted in everything we did especially the fashion to say, who's new? Who hasn't had a chance at this? And Jason Wu, his story, but his clothing, because we weren't doing anybody any favors. If I didn't like- If I didn't feel good in it, it wasn't beautiful. But I love also when you say, when you describe that you would try it, you would kneel, you would spin, you do all of this to make sure that, yes, I can wear this. I can.

This because it was like I was working. Jason Wu, because you wore Jason Wu. And I think it was you who pointed it out, I'm not quite sure. You wore him to the inaugural ball, the second time as well. And then the last time. And it was almost like, it was such a beautiful full circle. You loved his clothes. You connect it to his fashion. It was wonderful, but you connected with so many people. I remember, I remember there, obviously, the red Narciso Rodriguez. Yes. Oh, so beautiful. It was an election night. Yeah. So modern.

Oh my God. It was. That was in a crumb. A crumb helped me find that dress. That was so modern. Narciso was established already. Yes. But then you wore the coat, the Isabel Toledo coat. Yes yes yes. Who is or was the rest in peace, such a good friend, but such an incredible talent that didn't really get the recognition that she deserved. That day, I will never forget it. When I saw that, I... I felt so proud. I felt proud to be Latina, I felt to proud for you, I feel so proud for the Toledos. It was just a moment where I knew this is someone that understands.

This is somebody that understands, this is what it is. No, it was one of those choices I was thinking when you were talking about being proud, and I think about being pride. And those were also about being proud. For our country. Yeah. And you really worked on giving us presenting through fashion. Well, you said fair. Fashion was just one of the many languages. Correct that. But one that is often, as we all know, everybody thinks is so frivolous, everybody thinks it's so, but can communicate so much and that you used it in such a a special way to uplift designers, to connect with, to wear brands that were not necessarily luxury brands that really connected with the everyday woman.

And using American designers, I mean, again, you know, the international designing community fabulous. I love them all, but I felt like in the role of first lady and president that we had a In a very clear way. All of that stuff was intentional and still not without risk, right? Now, not without criticism, because even when I got into the White House, we spent so much time trying to get it right. I talked about the time that I got off of Air Force One wearing shorts and was crucified by- and They were hiking, you know, but this is where we learned that the information we got from the West Wing team about a trip was important because we were told we were going to get off the plane and we're going on a hike.

We're going on a hike in the Grand Canyon and it was a hundred degrees. Barack! Just had to, he was, I was like, well, what are you wearing? He's like, I'm going to throw on some sneakers. I'm gonna take my jacket off and roll my sleeves up because that's what men can do. White shirt, no collar, no tie. That was how he changed. And I was like, but after this, we're supposed to go to somebody's house and there's a tee. I can't wear hiking shorts there. And, I can wear a dress to hike. That would be crazy. No crazy.

And people would call me disconnected and I'm... Un-American. I'm at the Grand Canyon in a tealink dress with flats. I was like, that's not how people go to the Grand canyon. So literally, me and Meredith, we're on the plane going shorts, no shorts, because if you get off the plane in shorts, somebody's going to have something to say about it. I eventually opted for the thing that felt mostly me, and it was the Bermuda shorts. Because if we're going on a hike, this This is how a normal person would go on a hike. Of course, I have lots of clothes in this plane.

I could come off in anything, but I'm told that we were going on a hike. The fact that we had to spend time thinking about that kind of stuff in ways that my husband didn't, it was really infuriating. And then an article, a negative article still happened. And it was like, be original, don't you think I know? It's like, and women aren't given the benefit of the doubt. It's, why didn't you think, you know what? There must have been something going on where she was in shorts. There might be something that I don't know beyond fashion that might have dictated this, but to find people who, and the writer of this article was a black woman.

I felt like. I really feel like, come on girl, I got so much going on. I want to see you liking something else, it's not short. And I've got so many people coming after me, right? I feel like could you not have just given me a brain break sis? I have to tell you, that was a little detail, but all in all, it was really spectacular. And most importantly, I really do, in retrospect, when I look at how fashion has progressed and what happened during that era, you put American fashion back in fashion. American fashion was in fashion.

Because of you. That is a very big deal. It was an incredible moment. All these designers were uplifted. It was just a great moment for American fashion. And it was fun. And it was fun. It was so much fun. The big thing in this book that we wanted to show, because it's a coffee table book with beautiful essays, but the pictures we chose, it was like, okay, it could have been a series of fashion shots, but I was like that eight years was alive. It was alive with fashion. There was always movement. There was me physically moving.

There was movement in the colors and the selections and the choices. There was energy. And so we wanted to make sure that the pictures in this book evoked that kind of energy, that aliveness, that this isn't a fashion book, it's a book with beautiful pictures of the history that fashion happened to be a part of because fashion is so much bigger. It's a statement. The power that we have as people, as women in particular, to say something meaningful with what we have on is real. It was almost like the clothes had to be so good and fit so well that they almost disappeared for me mentally.

Like once I got dressed, as I told the team, I was like, don't touch me, don't fix me, because now I don't wanna think about it. I don't wanna think how I look, I don't wanna worry about it because I wanna be here for that little kid that I'm talking to. I want to be here for the people that are right in front of me and if I'm tugging on a thing or holding a jacket on, if I am worrying about getting smudged, now I've lost the plot. And the plot is the work. Is the people right or if you're or if your outfit is too much is wearing you exactly that's also detracts from exactly you and ultimately your values your message what you want to connect with the people Delicate balance.

I always said, I don't want the button, the pin to walk in before me. I don't want people to say, oh my God, who's that wearing that big flower? Who's that behind the flower? It's like the message, the work. And it didn't have to do with the designer labels. It really wasn't. You were wearing J. Crew, you were wearing Target, you were mixing high and low. It really had nothing to do with designer. It had everything to do with the delivery, with the style, with the message, with connecting, with having that person at home be like, if she's the first lady, that is a dream.

I could be that dream. And that little girl could see. Themselves and you being like I could be that that is a real connection with people. It's not being so Impossible, right to meet in the fashion. It was so real what you wore that it really Means a lot coming from you. No, it was it really impacted us and I think you know in fashion and this in my industry we were fascinated by every move you made and we really followed it very closely.

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Farrah, I'm going to come and completely change tacks here. You said because the term lady has historically been denied black women, some believe that black first lady to be an oxymoron. What do you mean by that? Because I am sure a lot of people felt that way. Thank you. Well, lady was a term that had so much meaning instilled in it. And it was racial meaning. It was a class meaning, right? A certain kind of upper class white woman. And we're not talking about Britain where it's a status, but here, that black women were not ladies.

They were women, but they were not ladies, they were even years before married black women would be called missus. Um, so the idea of a first lady being a black woman or a woman of any color other than a white woman was just an anathema. Like what does that mean? They couldn't even imagine it, right? And so for, um, Mrs. Obama to step into that role, um for many people was just like the sun falling out of the sky. It just, you know, it just did not make sense to them at all. And for some of them, there was a kind of hostility about that. And for others, I think it was just something that they had to get used to, they had to grow into that.

You know, we've adopted the term first lady for the women who are the wives of pastors, like black culture has adopted that term. But for the general culture, I think that for some people, not all, but for some people there was real resistance, because we've got this long history that black women are women, but they are not ladies. I think our gent thankfully Maybe our kids have had more freedom, more opportunities, but they take so much for granted. They do. And it really wasn't that. Long ago. Yeah, that's my mother's generation, my grandmother's.

These are people that this generation of kids, they know, they knew, but that's where history and one of the reasons why Farah is forward, when I did this book, I knew I wanted, and I knew Farah in particular could put the sociological, historical impact context, which I think is so important. Because we are in a battle now of who gets to define history in a way that intentionally keeps a lot of this stuff out. So the next generation of kids don't even know that it exists. I mean, if we don't talk about segregation and slavery, if we don t talk about the suffragist movement, if LGBT community and the history of who we were and why that was problematic.

Not to place blame, not to say that it's your fault today, but it's like, if we don't know our history, we are doomed to repeat it. And so putting even my fashion journey into some kind of important historical context, I think was essential in telling this story. This isn't just about dresses and fabrics and designers, it never was. It's about all the symbolism, it's about the language, it is about the retelling. It's the next chapter of who we are, not just as black people or as black women, but as a nation. I mean, we should all be proud of the growth that we've made, right?

We were this way, but then we learned. And a lot of that learning comes from exposure. You know, people don't know because they don't know. I mean, this is why I don't like labeling people as racist, right? People are uneducated. People are disconnected. People just don't, know. But in their hearts, they don't harbor the kind of ill will that may subconsciously come out, right. I mean I learned as First Lady that I say this all the time, it's hard to hate up close. I mean, and I found that when we were in the White House, we experienced so much love and support from all factions of not just this country, but of the world, because that's who we are. That is fundamentally who we.

Yes, we had some rough times and we need to remember that because that was based on lack of exposure. Races were segregated. They didn't know each other. They weren't allowed to interact with each other. And when you don't interact with people, it's easy for somebody to place a wedge between those relationships, to paint the other group as something different and scary and bad. But over the years, we started breaking down those barriers. We have women in charge, people running offices. Diversity is important. Diversity and inclusion, it is not just a catch word.

It's not about economics and people getting jobs. It's about us defining. Creating spaces where we now know one another. So we cannot be one another's enemies. And that was true in the White House. And sadly, now we're experiencing something completely different. And I know this is a book about fashion, but I hope it's a reminder of what was. What was and what can be and what it can be. And how different it makes us feel when it's good. How proud we felt in proud we felt. We also, I didn't touch on this, but I would love to hear about the 2016 National Convention.

She wore, she made that famous speech, which I use all the time, when they go low, we go high. You noted that she wore a cobalt blue dress during the speech to represent the party and the nation. Can you talk about how you interpreted the dress and the comparison in contrast to the earlier. DNC speeches. Well, I just think that by then, you know, she didn't have to introduce herself to the nation. Like we knew who she was. She didn't' have to be, there was no tentativeness. There was no, like, will the nation accept her?

The nation had accepted her, had accepted and, you know, proudly claimed her as the person, a person that we wanted to represent us at home and abroad. And so there just seemed to be a confidence and a comfort. And a, yeah, confidence in who she was and who we knew her to be. And I think that was a little bit different from that first, where, that very first was in 2008, where, you know, she has to introduce herself to the American public. And it was a slightly different color. It was a teal. Yeah, it was very slight. Teal versus that cobalt blue, which is just powerful.

Powerful exactly exactly. It's just very powerful. Was that intentional? It was pretty full circle. The teal dress of the first convention actually Michael Smith, our designer, labeled it Kailua blue. And we use that. That's the blue in the Obama China, for his set of presidential China, because it... It was that first speech, but it's also the blue of Hawaiian water, which is reminiscent of his upbringing. So again, what would have been the last speech, it wasn't because I ultimately made my, what is my last campaign speech just this past election.

But yes. You know, going back with a different kind of blue. You know, the second term, as we talked about, was completely different. We were no longer, we could experiment more, we could be freer with hair, but we still, I was still the first lady. And so what I did truly post White House in terms of fashion and risk taking, returning to braids like I had in college. That was an evolution, you know? I mean, the Becoming Book Tour was about glam and style. And we knew we wanted to do pantsuits because we were in dresses for, so the tea-linked dresses and the arms out. And it's like, ah, enough of that. You know, I'm gonna be talking to ladies.

And in arenas filled with tens of thousands of people who are gonna be excited. So we knew that it should feel special, you now? There should be a little glitz and. You know, there should be sparkle because it was just fun and invigorating and people needed to feel that energy. So I found the quote. That I think is your final speech, our glorious diversity, our diversity of faith and of colors and creed, that is not a threat to who we are. It makes us who we. That was beautiful. So beautiful. And it really, again, this administration believed it, acted, and that was the embrace, and we all felt it.

And we know it's right. Yep. Yes, of course. We know it is right. And when we second guess it, I guess my message to listeners is do not let any time in history make us second guess the truth of that statement. Diversity matters, it's important. It's important for us to embrace ourselves first and foremost, because we can't. Embrace anyone else if we don't like and love ourselves, if we don't value ourselves, it starts there. But we know better, you know, we know that inclusion, that opening things up, it's not just the right politics, but it's the right spirit.

You know, if any of us believe in a God at all, it is a God who believes in the equality of everyone. That no one owns this earth, no one on this planet. We all share it together. And we are all brothers and sisters. We are. We rise and fall together. Together. Correct. And if we're lucky, we do it in a pretty suit. Thank you. Thank you so much, Vara. Michelle, thank you for this gift. Oh, thank You. It's a beautiful book. Thank You. Your forward is incredible. Thank you for having me here to discuss this very important moment in fashion history and what it did to our country.

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "Michelle Obama on Style & Substance with Farah Jasmine Griffin and Nina Garcia | The Look"?

Nina Garcia (Host), Michelle Obama (Host), Farah Jasmine Griffin (Guest), Carl (Guest).

What is "Michelle Obama on Style & Substance with Farah Jasmine Griffin and Nina Garcia | The Look" about?

The discussion centers on Michelle Obama's fashion evolution and its significance beyond mere aesthetics, emphasizing diversity, inclusion, and the broader implications of representation within American culture. Obama, alongside esteemed scholars, reflects on how style can embody empowerment and inspire collective progress as a nation, particularly for Black women.

What is mentioned in this Michelle Obama episode?

10 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Farah Jasmine Griffin, Nina Garcia, Isabel Toledo, Ruby Bridges, Elizabeth Eckford, Christy Love. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "Michelle Obama on Style & Substance with Farah Jasmine Griffin and Nina Garcia | The Look"?

The episode runs 1 h 20 min; the transcript is about 11,648 words in 106 timestamped sections.

More from Michelle Obama

About this transcript: the episode's spoken words as captioned on YouTube, split into timestamped sections. Reclip.Me locates every person, work and idea in the text, keeps the time it is first named, and quotes the words around it verbatim. Last updated January 24, 2026.