Transcript

The Power of Hair: Identity, Legacy & Black Womanhood | The Look

From Michelle Obama · Episode page · Watch on YouTube

· 1 h 19 min · 12,997 words · 119 timestamped sections

This is the full, timestamped transcript of "The Power of Hair: Identity, Legacy & Black Womanhood | The Look", an episode of Michelle Obama published November 12, 2025 (1 h 19 min, about 12,997 words). It mentions 6 people, works and ideas, including The Look, Julie Wilson, Yenne Dimtu, Marseille Martin, Esthetics Salon.

What this episode is about

This discussion focuses on the significance of hair in shaping identity and legacy for Black women, featuring personal hair journeys that highlight the challenges and cultural implications of hair care. Through the experiences of notable figures like Michelle Obama and Yenne Dimtu, the conversation unpacks the emotional connections tied to hair, particularly within the context of Black womanhood and resilience.

Key takeaways

  • Hair care is a comedy of errors for many Black girls, highlighting both cultural and personal struggles.
  • Michelle Obama's journey underscores how societal standards of beauty can feel like a weight, not a freedom.
  • Despite the battle, hair rituals create a sense of community and shared experience among Black women everywhere.
  • Straightening hair often meant limiting fun—no swimming, no sports—highlighting societal pressures on self-presentation.
  • From kitchen sink to salon chair, the evolution of Black hair care reflects broader changes in cultural awareness.

Who speaks in this episode?

What is discussed, and when

  1. – 10:00: The Look, Julie Wilson, Yenne Dimtu, Esthetics Salon
  2. – 20:00: Amazon, Yenne Dimtu, Marseille Martin
  3. – 30:00: Amazon
  4. – 40:00: The Look
  5. – 1:10:00: The Look, Marseille Martin

Notable quotes from "The Power of Hair: Identity, Legacy & Black Womanhood | The Look"

  • The Look is also the name of Michelle Obama's beautiful new book, which is available for purchase now.
    about The Look · at
  • I didn't feel like that really existed. And so when we open up Asthetics, I was very adamant about building a space where women of color can come.
    about Yenne Dimtu · at
  • That can be for my hair, because I think growing up in Dallas, it was really only what I was telling y'all, like the rod set with the curls or, my terrible press,.
    about Marseille Martin · at
  • Hey gang, Craig Robinson here talking about Amazon today has absolutely everything for everyone on your list.
    about Amazon · at

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

  • Julie Wilson — Person · Host / interviewer · 2 mentions · first at
    Introduces the segment and guides the discussion, framing it through beauty journalism and cultural context; identifies herself as Cosmopolitan’s beauty editor at large.
    I'm Julie Wilson, award-winning journalist and beauty editor at large at Cosmopolitan, and it's my pleasure to be here with Yenne Dimtu renowned.
  • Yenne Dimtu — Person · Co-guest / referenced expert (beauty expert & stylist) · 2 mentions · first at
    Provides professional hair-care perspective and salon/community context; described as Michelle Obama’s longtime stylist and founder/owner of Esthetics Salon in Arlington, Virginia.
  • Marseille Martin — Person · Co-guest · 3 mentions · first at
    Shares personal hair experiences as a young Black actor/producer, discusses on-set hair culture (e.g., Black-ish), red-carpet hair storytelling, and navigating public scrutiny.

Books & papers

  • The Look — Book · Primary recommendation · 4 mentions · first at
    Michelle Obama's book mentioned as a central topic of discussion, relating to beauty and personal journey.

Companies & orgs

  • Esthetics Salon — Company · Business focus · 1 mention · first at
    Owned by Yenne Dimtu, discussed as a space for women of color to receive hair care and build community.
    And so, in the DNV, I didn't feel like that really existed. And so when we open up Asthetics, I was very adamant about building a space where women.

Sponsors

  • Amazon — Company · Sponsor · 4 mentions · first at
    Mentioned as a sponsor of the podcast, promoting early holiday deals.

Full transcript with timestamps

Dude, this fashion is counting for at least one percentage approval rating. Right right right. You know, this gown, you know, somebody... Put some respect. On the fact that me coming out here slaying and looking this good is helping our situation, your situation too. You had it, dude. It's only value.

This episode is brought to you by Ripley. Welcome to The Look, a special series on IMO. The Look is also the name of Michelle Obama's beautiful new book, which is available for purchase now. I'm Julie Wilson, award-winning journalist and beauty editor at large at Cosmopolitan, and it's my pleasure to be here with Yenne Dimtu renowned beauty expert, founder, and owner of Esthetics Salon in Arlington, Virginia, and longtime stylist to Mrs. Obama. And Marseille Martin, award-winning actor, producer, and founder of Genius Productions.

And of course, the one, the only, Michelle Obama. Welcome everyone. All right, I need to know what your hair journey was. What was it like growing up in the South Side of Chicago, being a beautiful little black girl? What were some of your earliest hair memories? Sadly, it was combative. My mother admittedly grew up saying that she was not a hair mom. Okay. Yeah, she was one of seven. Kids, two little brothers, a lot of girls, but I don't think my mom wasn't a girly girl in that way, right? So I think she was intimidated by hair and by my hair, right, because I had a lot of it.

It was thick. It was all over the place. And so wash day for her felt like a battle, right. And that's what it was. It was wash day. As I described in the book, it was like. Sundays were over. I felt imprisoned by my hair when I was a little girl because we didn't have the facilities. You got your hair washed on the cold Formica kitchen sink. That was annoying. The back of your head hurt because you're leaning over it and then the water is trickling out of a faucet and sometimes it's hot, sometimes it cold. Uh and...

One thing I never realized back then, we weren't using the right hair care products for us because they were like, you got what you got at the grocery store or at the drug store. There wasn't an abundance. The soft sheen line hadn't really fully come out. So she was using Wella Balsam on my hair. Wow. And as you now knows, I didn't even realize that, that that product stripped all the oils. Out of our hair. It wasn't designed for black hair. So, you know, she'd wash it twice. And then the process of detangling that hair, that without the plunder condition, I wasn't by the time I, you, I couldn't be.

So I think I was pretty good for a kid, but still it, it took, it, took what felt like hours to comb through all my hair and then the process of straightening. You know, it's like the hot comb on the stove, you know, talk about heat on hair with a little oil. It was that the yellow oil, the ultrachine oil, I still remember it because I think maybe those were the only products we had. We had the ultracine yellow. I feel like this is I feel like this is like really like something we all have in common. Like hair is such a shared experience for black girls.

Like do you guys remember like getting your hair pressed? Oh yeah yeah. But that wasn't, it was funny enough, my mom tried to stray away from getting my hair straightened as much as possible because every time I'd get impressed when I was younger, it turned out horribly because I would either go to school and it would look crazy or I would do something. Right right right. Funny story, because I always used to get like curling rods, like she used to just curl my hair. And then I'd wake up and then take the rods out and they'd just be in like a, that was my principal hairstyle.

So when I got it pressed with the hot comb and in the kitchen, I used to think I was like the little white girls in my class with her hair straight. And I remember every lunch before recess, they would go into the bathroom and they would get a cup of water and straighten their hair like this. And I'd be like. Not understanding what reversion was. I did it with them, thinking that we kick in like, ha ha yeah yeah. And they're like, we like your hair. I'm like, thank you, thank, and then it's Texas heat too. So I'm talking to one of my other friends, they're like, your hair, I'm on the top of the slide.

I'm, like, what are you talking about? That's like. Oh my god, that's so funny. I got in trouble. I got buried. Yes. It was like. Like bye-bye. I was like, girl, what happened? What were you thinking? And that was the thing about once you got your hair pressed, you were captive. And I think that that goes along. And I was a tomboy. I loved playing sports. I was out there sweating. I used to want to be, and I liked an Afro. One of my favorite, I loved baseball. I played softball when I was little. One of my heroes was Jose Cardinal on the Chicago Cubs. And he was black first baseman, and he had this huge Afro that he would put his cap on and then pick it out.

And so the hair would be framing the hat and that. That's how I love to wear my hair. With the cap on and have it picked out at bat, you know? So I wanted to be active, but when you get your hair pressed, you know, mom's like, don't touch your hair. Don't move. You almost got to like walk around like this, right? Hope it doesn't rain. And it's not just pressed. And don't think about swimming. Even Curls like- Ponytails. Right. On Sundays, I only got my hair pressed for special occasions, but regularly, my mother, Sundays, you lay out, you sit between her legs, you try to touch her head, she hits you with the comb, put your hair in pigtails, and just even braids or two twists.

It was such a thing and it was an all-day experience. Absolutely. And it was one of those things my brother freely could run around. He could play in the neighborhood. He could do whatever it is that he wanted. But on Sundays I had to sit. And get my hair done. And my mom, similar to Mrs. Robinson, my mother only went to this beauty salon. She never took care of her own hair. So trying to do my hair, it wasn't even if I was tender-headed, it just, she wasn't really good at it either. So it was just kind of like, this is painful.

And it doesn't look good at the end, right? But it's just what you do. My father, funny story, my father actually pressed me in my sister's hair. Wow. He grew up with three sisters in North Carolina and had the hot comb on the stove the whole nine yards and just captive audience with his girls pressing our hair, grease on the back of his hand. Oh, man. So interesting. I don't think that's a good idea. I don't think my father ever touched. My hair. I can't think of a moment. It's a very unique experience. And to bond, right?

We bond around here. Sitting in, you know, between the legs, getting your hair braided, that sort of thing. And I feel like we probably all got burnt. On her forehead at some point, right? On the back of my neck. Oh yeah. Trying to get in my kitchen. You're right. It's like the back. It was always the worst when it was on your forehead, because you can't cover that. Or you would get like, I love that picture of you when you're little with your ponytails and that bang, that barrel. That bang. That good from this multitude of burns.

Well, I eventually, because my mother was so bad at doing my hair, I started going to Miss Phillips' little salon in her basement across the alley because my mother gave up so soon. So here I am, six years old probably going across the alley with my little money to Miss Phillips basement, you know, the kind of basement salon that I think is almost in every black neighborhood. Still. Yep. You have a slime. We didn't talk about that. Yeah. And she could press my hair faster, get it straighter. And then she would do this thing where she would make a bang and she put this kind of hair stick that you put on your forehead that would hold the bang on your overhead.

I don't know if you- Like a wax stick? Yeah. That's what I was- Interesting. It wasn't a waxed stick. I remember it, it felt, uh, It felt like a hair glue of some sort, but she just put it on my forehead and pressed it down so that the bang would stick to my head, and I always thought that was kind of cool. Back on meeting about spritz and like pump it up back in the day, so it's probably like a Brana Brothers or Dudley's product. That's cool. What up? Are you like... Yeah, I was like, yeah, she was doing Arthur Krabs.

That's what it is. That's like Oregon. Very innovative. We're so innovative, but I want to talk about the salon of it all, right? Going to the salon, that's such an experience. The other women there, what are they getting their hair done? What are they talking about? You own a salon. Do you have that level of community and a village sense with your customers? Absolutely. You know, when we opened up Esthetics in 2017, one of the things that I realized living in the DMV was that I grew up in Orange County growing to the salon, the salon experience.

Not salon suites, no shade to salon suits, but being in a communal environment. It's a place where we organize. It's place where build community. And so, in the DNV, I didn't feel like that really existed. And so when we open up Asthetics, I was very adamant about building a space where women of color can come. That are in the professional workplace that aren't there all day, but they still get that salon feel. Like you still, it's like, oh, there's, you know, Michelle, she has a standing appointment on Friday or, you're not going to have somebody coming in with the bootlegs or like selling a food plate, but you still are getting that camaraderie and you're still getting hair care.

And I think now more than ever, you don't see hair care take place in the salon because everyone is doing quick trends. You know, people are slapping on a wig. Cool, that's great, that serves a purpose, but how are we treating our hair underneath? And so it was really extremely important to me to build a space in a community where that existed. Were you up in the salon? When you were young? I was. I was up in the salon. And then, of course, I started Black-ish when I was nine, so that was a whole new world. That was kind of my version of the salon, in a sense, you know?

And I was with people that I worked with every day, it'd be, whether it was 7 a.m. Or 7 p.m., like that's where we were, just constantly getting our hair changed for different scenes. And that was my first time really getting to explore the amount of styles. That can be for my hair, you know, because I think growing up in Dallas, it was really only what I was telling y'all, like the rod set with the curls or, you know, my terrible press, you don't get my hair straightened. But working with Aroxy Lindsay, which is absolutely amazing, so talented, and so unique and a perfectionist, and really like.

Transforms your hair into something different that you would have never thought in a million years. Like, oh, I didn't even know it could look like this. So growing up with her, it was really, really special to be able to see that and maybe learn more about it, you know, because both my mom and my little sister have different hair textures that I would always, in a way, feel interesting about myself of like, hmm. There's two different textures, but like theirs is very fine, really thin, can be in a ponytail like in 20 seconds, mine is super thick in the middle, I can't even get it, you know, I have to use a hair clip and it just was really different and especially growing up on Black-ish, you with Yara and Tracy, they have two different hair textures than I do.

So I needed that person to help me. Figure out what was for me to where I constantly didn't have to question, you know, if my hair right even told a story, you But I have to say, watching it, and I'm sure you guys would agree, it was so beautiful, one, seeing a Black family like that, you know? For us to have that storytelling beyond the Cosby's and that sort of thing. But also the hair inspiration, right? Between you, Yara, and Tracy, like, I would just be like, -"Oh, I want to do that." And look at that. Like, as Jis was saying...

I know. I wish I had you when the girls were little because I used to run out of styles. I just creatively, I'm like, okay, one poof, two poofs. But then I'd see your character and I'd be like, ah, I could have tried that. Yes. Such cute stuff. Well, it's just, it is just amazing how we don't see a lot of inspiration for our type of hair on television. And I think that that was a big part of what kind of got me off on the wrong track in terms of loving my hair. Was because when we were growing up, we had no images. There were no images of.

Black hair, black characters, let alone black children. We grew up watching the Brady Bunch. It was Marsha and Jan, and it was the Partridge family, and I think the closest young person that I saw was Janet Jackson, and she was still a baby, so it was a Jackson five, but Janet Jackson wasn't a part of the sort of American zeitgeist in the same way. Um... So the notion that we grow up playing with Malibu Barbie and who wants the Chrissy doll with the curly hair because you're always trying to fix the hair, you want the hair to flow. And I think that a lot of women, white women, don't understand how problematic it is for young black girls not to see themselves in popular culture and not to pay.

Give respect and to show examples of our beauty. And that we are beautiful, right? Absolutely. You have to see it, and for it to be celebrated in the world, to say, wow, yeah, it's being celebrated, of course I'm beautiful, but if you don't see that. So was your mother, who was telling you you were beautiful? You know, we didn't talk about beauty in my household, you know? I mean, it wasn't, you know, my parents were more focused on how smart you were and grades. I don't know whether that was intentional or not, but I don't remember us sitting around focusing on looks, period right?

Yeah. Um, so I, I probably wasn't until I was maybe in high school. That I started thinking about taking control over my look. And I think that had to do with the fact that I went to a neighborhood public school. So from K through eight, I was in the neighborhood. And then I got into a magnet high school. And I drove across the city and it was a school that attracted kids from all over the city. So it was the first time I was around all kinds of kids, all kinds racist, all kinds socioeconomic backgrounds of black people right?

So Joe Dudley was in my high school class, the son of Dudley and they were wealthy people. There were people, young kids like me who were going downtown to get their hair done. They were, we were, we had to commute through downtown Chicago. So I started going into the department stores there and I started to see, oh, like there are black girls that are, that do have a lot of variety. They are doing different things with their hair. I think it was high school when I started discovering the possibility of style in clothing and in hair because I was around a lot more people.

And you got creative, you started doing... And I started exploring, I started looking for my own hairdressers, you know? I started getting recommendations. I would see somebody and go, oh girl, your blowout looks nice. Where do you go? Yeah. And I would take my little babysitting money and I'd go down and that's where I found my first hair salon community was in high school. When you talk about that salon, it was Ronnie Flowers, the salon was Van Cleef. I started going to him in my a senior year in high school and he did my hair from senior year on high school until I went to the White House.

That relationship was that close. That is beautiful. And that's what we're talking about, that salon relationship. Hi, I'm Karl Ray, and I am Michelle Obama's longtime makeup artist. My work has introduced me to so many interesting experiences. I've worked in film, TV, print, fashion, and beauty all around the world. I've also had the pleasure to work with many celebrities and dignitaries along the way, and I love to work you. So the next time you're booking on Airbnb, click on the services tab. You'll find professionals like me and my team.

We can help make your next special occasion even more memorable. Weddings galas birthdays, headshots, or anytime you just want to feel and look your very best. You can find me at airbnb.com slash services. Hey gang, Craig Robinson here talking about Amazon today has absolutely everything for everyone on your list. And with their early holiday deals, you can get a head start no matter who you're shopping for. And let me tell you, I am going to be completely honest with you. I'm the guy who waits until the last minute, but it's because I've been shopping for these people my whole lives, but with Amazon's early holiday DEALS?

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But I love, Michelle, how you were saying, in high school, you kind of realized, like, I always love asking the question, when did you know black was beautiful? And and like you kind of having that realization that what about you, Marseille and Yanay, like when did you know black was beautiful? Ooh, when did I know black was beautiful? I mean, I think just starting in my household. Like I grew up with, of course, my parents were around, but also my great grandma lived with us. So basically like my mom's mom, and then my mom mom's, mom, all lived in the same house.

Wow, just intergenerational. Yeah. Exactly. And then my dad's mom also lived in our house. So it was just full of grandparents that were loving on you. That was just loving on me. And funny enough, we didn't talk about beauty too much either. But it was more like, if I'd come home from school and I'd be like, this person said this to me, my mom would be like f'em, you're gorgeous. And I'd like, oh, okay. Okay, that's cool. But I especially learned from my mom's mom, who I called my booba. She had a range of wigs and a range of nail polish and even my great grandma collected purses and they just always were about self, always first.

And then it would be like, you know, midday, they would cater to everybody, you know, start cooking, playing music, you know, making sure I was okay. And my puppy at the time. And it was really just, it was sweet when I. Just started observing more, you know? And that's where I learned just that black was beautiful and back then and now, and seeing the transition into, you know, when I was young growing up in Dallas with them and then now them being my angels up above and kind of guiding through those situations of like, wow, my booba would have said this at the time, or if someone told me this, I would remember everything that they said to me.

That's definitely the first time I learned absolutely. Yeah. Love that. What about UVNA? High school. I think high school is probably like the pivotal moment. I was a cheerleader, similar to Marseille. All the girls wanted to put water on their hair. And I knew, I knew I was like, my hair can't do that. See, I didn't know. You see, I said, my hair can't be there. You fell for the pinky-dove, right? They said, they laughed, and I want to laugh, too. They were like, we're going to make our hair crinkly. We're just going to put some water on it. And I was like, I can't put water on.

And they're like, why? And I'm like, because my hair won't do what your hair does. And coming home, again, my mother was just kind of like, my parents were very protective. We grew up in Orange County, predominantly white, an Asian neighborhood. I was the only black in a lot of environments. And so my parents were very protective of, like... You are fine, you're worthy. But on the weekends, we spent all of our time in LA. So it was two different worlds that I would see. I would be in Orange County, and I would live in that world.

And then I would go to LA, and I'd be around predominantly black neighborhoods. So it's two different contrasts, and so I got to see both sides and I felt more comfortable when I was around more black folks than I was at school. Because at school, it was just kind of like, the way that I speak and my hair is different and how I present. And then I'm first generation Ethiopian-American, I have a funny name. There was just so many, it was layered for me. So high school is when my parents really started to be like, you're beautiful, you are fine.

Like I was... I was a cheerleader, I ran for homecoming princess. It was then that I was like the self-esteem and the confidence was being instilled in me. And it was like, you're perfectly fine the way that you are. And the pride of being like a black woman in that space. Yes, because in the beginning you're ashamed. You're kind of like, I'm different. You retract, you don't want to say too much. And then you realize like, nope, I gonna say what I want. Michelle, like, going from the south side of Chicago to Princeton, what was that transition like?

Because that's got to be a lot. You're now you were in high school. You're learning that black is beautiful, that you're you're experimenting with your hair and doing all the things. So what was the Princeton experience like? Interesting because, and I enjoyed my Princeton experience, I had great education, I made great friends. I think one of the things that saved me was that I wasn't curious about assimilating. What I had learned in high school and growing up on the south side of Chicago and growing up in a big, extended family is that.

I need to go where I'm loved and have community. Yeah absolutely. Now, when it came to hair, well, that was another story because I'm in Princeton, New Jersey. And the first thing you do is you set down foot and you start finding all the black girls where you get your hair done. And there were some girls that were sophisticated enough that by then I had a relaxer way too soon, but I gave up on the pressing comb very early and my mother was happy to see it go. By then, I was in a relaxer. So how do you get your touch-ups?

And for those of you who don't know about relaxers for black people it's a process of chemically straightening your hair. And that means as your hair grows out in its curly style, you need to continue to straighten that new growth that comes in, which is a every six week process. And now here I am a freshman in college. So there was a department store called Bamburgers and a mall near Trenton. There was a hair salon there. I went there for the first year, and it was just another hassle right? Because in addition to going to classes and trying to have a life and go to a party, I had to make my hair appointments and go off campus and get on a bus and go to the mall.

Black hair, really. It just, it's just like, oh, geez. Always a thought. It's always. I discovered I met. My DC friends, a lot of girlfriends from DC. So now I'm out, I'm not just out of my neighborhood and in the city. I'm on the East coast. And I'm finding that there's a whole different attitude about hair for my girlfriends who live in DC because there were a ton of braiders in DC. And that's when I was like, oh, I could be getting my hair braided. So sophomore Every year I visited one of my girlfriends. Got my hair braided, then I went back to my salon, found a braider, and I started wearing my hair, braided in sophomore year.

And a lot of that was because I just needed to be efficient. I needed to focusing on class and having fun and not worrying about getting touch-ups. That was the first time I felt not only beautiful in the braids, but free. Yes. Protective styles will really change your life and allow you to just like live and be... But I wanted to ask you guys too, like once you got that freedom, college or going on to do your career or whatever, did you guys ever do anything that you're like now left to my own devices? Like why did I do that?

Cosmetology school. I did everything under the sun. I had pink hair, I had blue hair. You did the color of it all. I... Like you bleached your hair. Bleached my hair. You lifted your hair, bleached it. And then put color on top of it, and then it fell out. And I used to have really thick hair. And I just blame myself. I know better now. And you're experimenting in cosmetology school and you're just trying different looks and you try to be creative. But again, it's also one of those things where... My counterparts were doing all these different things with their hair.

So I was like, I'm going to do the same thing too. And I'm learning about this. So why not? I'm gonna put the water in my hair too. That was your water moment. But my hair didn't respond the same way. There was a little more care and nourishment, love that my hair needed beyond just using whatever products, doing whatever. And, you know, what we were learning in hair school wasn't for my texture. But I didn't I was just like, well, I'm in an educational institute, so of course they're going to guide me in the right way.

Right. And it wasn't. And afterwards, I was like, okay. So then I was, like, no more color. No more nothing. I'm just going to take a break from it all. But it was definitely an experiment. What about you, Marseille? I'm trying to figure it out. I'll choose you. Thank you so much. Yeah, I think honestly, I've been so secure in the styles that I like since I was little. I really didn't change it too, too much. It's so funny because I learned it. I'm thinking more about the mistakes that happened after transitioning to one style to the next.

So, like, when I get my hair braided... And it's time to take them down. It was just me by myself trying to take my hair down, trying to be grown. Like, okay, I got you, mom, I've got it, mom. I was like, my hair's stayed the same. I cut it up here. You cut it, right? Yeah, I cut in here. Oh, girl. And not here, I didn't know you had to start here. Right, right. I cut up here, you know. It's not that, like. Yeah yeah. And then I take pictures of my little bob, my little braid bob that I made. Like, oh, this is cute.

And then I take it down and then it just looks really bad. It would be like part of it's up here, part of is down here, and it just was yeah. But I'm thinking about those kind of little mishaps that just taught me more about just my hair overall. Like, oh, okay, maybe I just need to take this step before taking this step. And I've dyed my hair before, but... Never pink and blues. It was probably like... Never the pink sort of blues. Yeah. It's currently dyed now, but the first time I dyed it was like a blonde, like it was like a honey blonde.

Yeah, it was a honey blond. And it was 2020. You know? No one would care. We was inside. We was in the house. And yeah, that was like the one time where I really dyed my hair. And it was funny because back then, you know, everything was. Really, really remote, of course, during 2020. So it was the BET Awards, and I had to present in my backyard. And that was the first time people saw the honey blonde. Yes. We gotta pull up that picture. Yeah, y'all can pull it up. Y'all gotta pull it out. But I think that was definitely, that was a time.

Let me just say that. That was a dime. And then there was comments where it was like, why is her hair blonde? Like, is that a wig? And I was like. I don't know what to do, I was like, my hair, I thought I liked it, um, yeah, I was just trying stuff and my mom was like it's okay, look, F'em, you like your hair? So I did, I did a video, um that was just like addressing the haters and that was very, very fun. I love it. I love the humor, but the clap back and all of that. That brings up such a good point about our hair, is people touching it, petting us, right?

And like, how have you guys navigated that? Because I've definitely been on the New York subway and someone's hand is just like in my head. Where I've had superior, like, at jobs, touch my hair. And it's just like... So what did you do in those instances? I mean, when I was on the subway, I was like, no. Mmm please Please don't touch my hair. Actually, hot tip, never touch a black woman's hair, period. You shouldn't touch anyone's hair. But like, Solange wrote a whole song about it. You can go listen to it on, you know what I'm saying on Spotify.

But like don't. Touch my hair, please. When it was in the workplace, it was harder because this is a superior. And so like, and it was a white woman. And it's hard because you're like, in that moment, you just feel like me too. Like you just. Feel like, oh, my God. That was uncomfortable. How do I put that person in their place and keep my job and my livelihood? And so you just internalize it and you go home and cry in your husband's arms. And that's what I did. But, and then custer out like, you know, at home with my friends.

But you know that is a very unique experience. I feel like most black women have encountered where someone wants to touch your hair. How's that? Like I want to feel it. What's the and, like, But I think that's why conversations like this, why I wanted to talk about hair in the look because I think I want us as women of color, all the women of color in the world with all the different textures, I want to us to get comfortable with the subject of hair and owning our beauty and, you know. And being a part of educating in our circle of conversations, welcoming people into these circles of conversation to have questions answered and to help people understand the boundaries that they take for granted or they don't offer us.

And this is completely true when it comes to the workplace. I mean, the notion that there is a right way for hair to look and to feel. Is really a presumptuous kind of, wow, how does anyone get to the point where they think that they can comment on somebody else's hair? And let me tell you, as First Lady, even though I wore my hair braided in college, when it was time for me to walk into that law firm, to start getting jobs, it wasn't even a question in my mind. You just knew. It was just like, it wasn't up for discussion.

There was a standard of hair and it required a lot of care. I mean, it's actually, to get your hair blow-dried, I mean I had a standing, we all know the standing appointment that is weekly. I have a stand every two weeks, but they give. Well, I had one weekly. And it's costly and it's time consuming in ways that a lot people don't understand. Coming into the White House and we were having conversations. I came in with a relaxer. And I knew the importance of making broader statements about hair as the first Black First Lady.

But I will tell you, I consciously understood that at least until people knew me, which took eight years, that I needed to not make hair. A part of the conversation, which is why I'm taking the time to talk about it now, because it always is an important part of a woman and a black woman's journey. Um but I, I couldn't risk. I know, that was such a powerful statement when you came out and said America wasn't ready for that. It wasn't ready, yeah. I mean, they couldn't handle me and my husband giving each other a fist bump on stage.

They couldn't handle your arms out. In your portrait, they were like, what is going on? Could you imagine if you came down with some box braids? They would be like, What is that? Why is she wearing her hair like that? I think that that's so profound that you were able, because too, you could have been like, screw it, say it loud and black and I'm proud, I'm going to do the things. But that could have also overshadowed everything else that you guys were trying to do politically. And there's also, we talk a lot about change and the evolving and the speed of it. And I know that generationally people get impatient and they want change now.

And change is one of those things. It's like you gotta read the room sometimes and feel the time. In my mind, I knew there was going to come a point in time in my public life where I was going to. Get my braids back in, I was gonna reclaim that. But the bigger point of getting the ACA passed and doing work with kids and, you know, military families and all the things that were on my husband's agenda, fashion and hair had to be a back story for the moment. Choose your battles. You know what you had to get done. But I knew that representation is important.

I knew it then, I know it now which is why we're doing this. Because now it's time. We should now be in a point in our nation's history, even though sometimes it feels like we're going backwards, that we have to start accepting. And embracing the differences of all of us. That there isn't a standard of beauty and it doesn't look like what's on the magazine cover. That's taste. Right. You know, that's just sort of what you might happen to like. Right. But it isn't the standard, you know? And we have to start educating people about all kinds of beauty. Yes.

Um, and our beauty is so powerful and so unique. That it is worthy of the conversation and it's worthy of demanding the respect that we're owed for who we are and what we offer to the world. Absolutely absolutely. Marseille and Yanay, I want to know what you guys also think about this now in this day and age, the freedom right? You're styling people's hair and overseeing your salon. You're out here with these amazing braids and I've scrolled through your Instagram so much, seeing all of the hairstyles that you do. It seems like there is this beautiful level of freedom where you're not second guessing whether I want to do this style or not or present myself in this way and not be.

You know, criticized in a huge way. Yeah. I know for me, it's just about, I think in this day and age too, the only thing that I can really focus on is my originality. Just what I bring to the table, you know, such as anybody else. I think that... Lucky enough and beyond blessed to have a family that never told me that I am flawed in any kind of way when it comes to the styles that I want to do and the decisions that I choose to make. And you know, I trusted that. I trusted them. I trusted my family. I trusted the my grandparents and just the people around me that said that it was to do what my heart desires.

And I just kind of wanted to carry that throughout. Regardless of what social media said or anybody that I would approach on the street said, I trusted that statement. I didn't trust, you know, anything else. So for me, that's just kind of what I wanted to do. And I am happy during this time, people have started to tell their own story and have a... You know, having their journey speak for themselves when it comes to their hair, makeup, fashion, or whatever the case may be. So, as a creator at heart, and somebody that just kind of wants to brainstorm and just do whatever, that excited me.

So, you know, I think that's just the energy that I carry in any red carpet and anything. Whether I'm in the house, going out to the grocery store, or I'm going to the next event. That's just what it is. And I've had my braider, Twye, who is absolutely amazing in LA. I've have her since I was 13 maybe. Really when I started little in that whole trajectory of everything, that's really when I starting being like, all right, all hands on deck, who are my people? Who is my team? Who are the people that um, understand me and also would be able to explain the things that I don't understand and have new light and in a new lane that I can create for myself.

I was going to say, do you bring your glam with you? Like on projects, are you very like adamant if someone reaches out to you for a project? You're like, I'm bringing my hair and makeup people because I'm not leaving it to y'all to figure out what this face and this hair gives. It's really interesting. It's funny because I've gotten pickier, but I wasn't like this. I wasn't like this about it. I've got pickier the more stories that I've had throughout my life and different memories. I wasn't as picky, you know, if Roxy wasn't with me or anybody else.

I'm like, all right, let's see who's wrong. New York. I mean, New York got some people, of course. And then there's this lady who came in, didn't know how to lay some edges. She had a wax stick and a straightener to put in a ponytail. It was just it was the craziest thing. I was going to a I was going to Prada fashion show at the time. No, and you're probably like, oh my gosh, I want to slay and then... Yeah, that was crazy. I had to be 14, 15 at the time, and my mom came in and she said, all right, you have a good one.

The lady left and she say, where's my, you know, the pom-pom bun? The pom-pop bun? She put it there. And she popped that bun in. She drew the drawstring. And put some bobby pins in, got a little scarf. She's like, not today, my baby's not gonna be at the Prada, so luckily Prada got a scarf. She said, Prada's got a... Let's go, let's make it Just making nothing out of something. Thanks for watching guys! This episode is brought to you by our friends at Rivian and their fully electric, full-sized SUVs and pickups that are designed for all of life's adventures.

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Well, I, on the other hand, like my people. I mean, she's been with you in the White House, but I want to talk about this level of freedom now because this is, you have been giving us looks. You too have been creating such moments, hair moments. Talk about that freedom and the collaboration you guys have now that you can kind of step away from the whole respectability politics of the White house and you can have fun. How does it like collaborating? Do you guys come to each other with ideas? We do. How does that work?

We do come. Collaborate we need We need all the tea. The main thing for me is making sure that she feels beautiful and she feels empowered. And anything that we do, it's always a conversation. And it's not just a conversation between myself and Michelle, but it's a conversation with the whole Glam team. It's not about owning a part of her. And I think that that's what makes our team so special, is that we collaborate. It's asking Meredith and Carl, like, what are your ideas? Like, what is she wearing? Where is she going?

What is she doing? And then once we figure that out, then we go, we individually have conversations with her and I'm like, I'm thinking this. So depending on what the neckline is doing. Like earlier, we talked about putting her hair up because she had high shoulders or just being down and playful. And then also having her have the freedom where she doesn't have to depend on us. I think so often black women, we feel like a slave to our hair. And that's something that is embedded in us when we are kids right? We are a slave to the beauty industry.

We have to go to the salon. We have buy these products. We have wrap our hair. We have do this. We can't just jump in the pool. We can just, vacations and freedom isn't really free. And so the main thing is just making sure that she's able to be wherever she wants in the world and not have to feel that she has to have glam with her. And that she can take care of herself. And it goes back to education and making sure that her hair is the healthiest that it needs to be. So our collaboration process. Like she said when she came in, she's just like, you got me out of braids. And I was like, just temporarily, but we're gonna set you up so that when you leave, you're still able to maintain your hair.

Having fun? It looks like you're having so much fun. We've seen the little buns, the two buns. Yeah. It is freedom. I had fun in the White House. Don't get me wrong. And while I have a team, I've had a number of people in and out as part of the team. Johnny Wright, who Yanay, he's moved on. There was my original stylist- Ronnie Flowers, who brought me into the White House, and Jerry, who does braids, because the beauty of Yanay is that she's not wedding me to her. If I want to go into braids and she knows the best braider, she's going to get the best braids in, and I developed that relationship.

So I think, you know, there's a generosity. Yeah. Of spirit that goes into this team. It's like, this isn't my client, my thing, you know. Yenna isn't the celebrity in the celebrity stylist, you know, because we really didn't, as I said, we weren't out front on hair and beauty. So I needed a team that was okay being in the background for eight, 10, 15 years until it's time to talk about it. Yeah. So all of that. Made it always fun. And at the end, you know, all I said to my team, when I went into the White House, I said, I want to walk out here with my sanity, my kids in check, and my hair in my head.

And that's the thing that you have to worry about with different stylists, especially as black women. But I think all women go through this. I mean, I've heard this from. Friends of all nationalities, you get somebody that doesn't know what they're doing to your hair and the color is too harsh, it burns your hair out, your hair dries out, you know, and that's... It is traumatizing to have somebody mess up your hair. Your crown. You know? Yes, it grows back, but it feels like an assault, you know? I mean, it's just sort of like, what did you do?

And why did you this? And if you didn't know what you were doing, why didn't you just say so? Right? I mean all of us have experienced that sort of trauma. I didn't have that because you had your village. And was your village, I know we talked a little bit about this, Yuna, but like, was your Village also supporting your mother and the girls in the White House? Oh, for sure. So you're very intentional about all the ladies here. Because there's also the difference, you know, I will say as Marseille does, when you were in the public eye, you can't have a bad hair day.

And you were getting up at four. 4 o'clock in the morning, 4.30 in the mornings to work out. Oh yeah. I would get up at 4.30 to work out, I'd start hair and makeup, which we got down to an hour and a half process because everybody is efficient too, because I'm working. You can't take, I don't have an hour to give to- But that's a lot of- prodding and heat and that sort of thing. But your hair was able, you talk about having- But this is, we use protective styles. Protective styles. We used wigs, extensions, we used it all.

And something that I wasn't used to coming out of a regular person's life, where you just use your own hair, you know, what was clear in the team is like, there's no way you can get your hair done every day, sometimes two, three times a day, depending upon. Did it rain? Did you swim? Did you? And have it stay in your head. And that's, you know, so what I realize is like, oh, the only way you do that is like you can't use your own hair. I love that you say. In the book, too, that you wanted it to look like your hair.

Well, that was the other thing, because it was about the independence, you know? Because I was like, well, what if you get sick? Right. What if you, you, know, what, if life happens and now I'm in some long weave and I'm like, I don't know how to, I don't know what to do with this. Right. This isn't me. Right. That's also the difference with me. I always had to look like me. Like, that's the other thing, the team was like, I am not a celebrity. I am famous. I'm in the public eye, but I'm not Beyonce, you know, and I don't, you're our political Mama Beyonce, that's what I'm saying.

But to show up with hair down my back, one minute, and a snatched ponytail, that would detract. Not because it's me or because it is black hair, but if like every time I'm showing up, you know, it's the ponytail that's walking into the room and it's not me. And the room shouldn't be looking just at me, it should be looking at the kids that I'm talking to and it should looking at, you now, so there was some level of let's be consistent, you know? I'm not singing on the stage. I'm not whipping my hair back and forth. I am actually in somebody's church or I'm at a cemetery or...

It's like, I have to look good, but like not... I'm in a school. I'm on the ground with four-year-olds. We're just reading. It should have just reading hair. Just reading hair. That's all we're doing, is reading. Nothing to see here. Not a bust down. Not a bus down. Not the hair on the grass. Curious around the maintenance of it all, right? Are there tips and tricks, like even just like beyond the philosophy of keeping our hair obviously looking good, but healthy, like what could, like were there like things y'all were doing?

Some magic going on. I think the biggest thing was transitioning her out of her relaxer. First thing first. And then the use of protective styling. The use of extensions. Just realizing that. Average person doesn't have to go into extensions. And one of the things that I always tell, when people come into the salon and they bring in inspiration of a celebrity, I'm like, you don't have celebrity glam with you. Like, this person can have a wig on today, and then have a different wig on tomorrow, but they have someone else maintaining it.

That's not realistic for you to maintain. And so with Michelle, the thing was making sure that she was able to maintain it, but we were also able to maintained it in a way that if we were sick, if someone wasn't available. She can make herself look decent. So again, it can't be too long. The texture had to match. Understanding can she tie it into a ponytail? So protective styles, using extensions, staying away from chemicals and knowing that less is more. Well, and constant. Conditioning right? I was going to say, if they're crotches. Crotches?

That you loved? Like we- did you deep condition like esteemed every Every appointment. Oh, I love that. Come on with the steam. We had a steam. We had the steamer. Every appointment, every wash day, because you did have a wash day. Every Sunday was wash day in the White House with everyone, mom, the girls. Well, mine very, it wasn't Sunday because whenever I had a down day, the girls because they were in school and Sundays tended to be their days. She was regular. Grandma's want regular hair. But she came with a salon.

She was just like, I could just come to the salon. We have a salon in the White House, which is just a little room. It was like the kitchen of the White house. But still, I love that insult of mine. It was right next to the kitchen too. Oh, grandma. Grandma was getting her nails done and her hair done on a regular basis. But I love this tip, steaming, because I feel like, look, I'm a beauty editor. I get it. Like, I've learned about steaming and how great that is. But it's something that you don't really think about doing at home all the time. You might do it when you're in the salon.

But I loved the fact that it was something that was non-negotiable in your hair routine. Non-negotiable. Moisture. But wait, can we talk about the girls a little bit? I love how you were talking about how you were always loved on and poured into. We can see that Sasha and Malia were, that was done. At least from the outside looking in and you've talked about it in your books of how much you loved on them And wanted them to have this beautiful childhood even in the public eye. But when it came to hair too, I think it was so interesting that you were dealing with this respectability politics of straightening your hair and having it in a certain way, but also you're raising these two young black girls. And it's almost like a do what I say, not what I do.

How are you pouring into them to say, you have to love your hair the way it is? Grows out of your head, be proud of your blackness, all of that, but like, I've got to do this. Yeah, I mean. They never have had relaxers. I think we did a henna once. We did a keratin for Malia. And that didn't once. And it was like, no, no. Not going back there. And she was in twist until she chose what to do with her hair. I mean, does she and T'Lasha both have different hair textures? Sasha's hair couldn't hold a twist, Malia's hair twisted up so nicely, and she had the cutest twists.

And so she became a teenager and was like, I need something else. But I was fortunate because I had a team with me. So they understood the difference. My hair was work. It was work hair. They didn't conflate that with, oh, mom doesn't love her natural hair and she's doing this. Why doesn't she show her natural to the world? They could understand the nuance that I have to do this for work, but I want you to be able to be free. Buh-bye! You're little girls and you're girls and your hair is beautiful, but because they grew up with almost their own little glam team, but it wasn't really glam, but they saw so many different versions of beautiful.

And Jerry, who had dreads, and Yenne, who changed her hair every other month, it seems. She's a hair girly. They were surrounded by all different types of black women doing different things with their hair, right? And generationally, thank goodness. You know, the Marseilles, you guys are coming up with different messages, you know? They do see social media, they are, they, unlike us, they have, they have Marseille. You know? They have Yara. They have, they have so many, so many real life examples of how different and beautiful we are.

I mean, that's how far we've come. Before we leave the White House and talking about your family, we had to talk about Mr. Obama and how did he ever weigh in on your hair? Was he ever coming into the salon like, oh, that's cute? Or any amazing reactions when you walked out and he was like, dance? Yes. Our favorite times of sort of our rituals were state dinners, right? And I write about sort of that whole, because the state diners were fun, right, because it was the gown and the this and the that and the, you know, everybody would collaborate and, you know, there was just a routine. We'd have champagne and hors d'oeuvres for the team and we'd play music and you just sort of get ready because it's special. It's a and you know, um So we'd be getting ready in the salon, then I'd get hair and makeup done, then I go into my dressing room with Meredith, we'd put on the gown and nobody, he would never see

it right? And he'd be waiting in the cross hall when I came out into the gown right before we were getting on the elevator to go down for the official greet. And that's when he would see the look and everybody would, you know. There's a look. There's just the look. The fact that everybody will come out and wait for him. It's like the first look in, like, a wedding or something. That's how it was. Again and again and again. Would you get butterflies? Like, anticipating how he would see you? What's he gonna say? This is so cute.

He's gonna, you know, and I go like that. We all used to got show friends. They'd all just sit around and watch. And then we run to the TV to watch the actual arrival ceremony take place on TV to see like how does it feel. But he was very much a man. It's like, so what does this mean? If there was a long train or something fashion-y hanging off that he didn't understand, he'd be like, is this supposed to be like this? And it's like dude, it's fashion. It is way above your K grade. Don't worry about it. You don't understand. You don't need to understand it.

Just understand it's fact. Yeah, and he obviously understood the reasons why you were wearing the hair in which you were wearing. It wasn't like he was like, no, Michelle, put the braids in, let the world know. Well, he is always my, you know, he's like, you are beautiful no matter what you do. He's like I don't even, I don't t notice the difference in anything. So he has always been, is always, continues to be completely affirming. But he understands that women are different. That our challenges, our struggles, the things we have to do, he has watched the women in his life and his mother and his sisters.

Yeah, and his mother-in-law, he sees the work that we're required to put in, he respects it, he understands it but sometimes he wonders, do you have to do all that? And it's like, dude, dude this fashion is counting for at least one percentage approval You know, this gown, you know, somebody is... Put some respect on the back. That coming out here slaying and looking this good is helping our situation, your situation too. Your situation, too. It's only value added, dude. It's the only value adding. When you would step out on red carpets, are you like, I don't know, like, it's so interesting being a part of the public eye, like that whole collaboration for you to go out there. How much of it also is like, are your taking your hair into consideration, right? Because I think a lot of people is like it's all about the gown.

You go to the Met Gala, everyone's asking just about the clothing, right, or going to red carpet. Who are you wearing? But like, I always think it's so interesting as a beauty girl. I'm like, who did that hair? Look at those edges. They're like swirled. Like, look at those braids. How much of your hair is like taken into consideration when you're like going out on the red carpet? Completely. I think just like we were talking about, it's the overall look that we break down. I think it just, it only makes sense when if there's a gown or if there is a streetwear kind of whatever, it has to fit.

It has to make sense. It's telling the overall story, not just that. MRSA, do you have? Fun in it? Is it fun for you? I have fun. I have fun. I think that's like the triple Leo in me. Like I have lots. Triple Leo. I'm a triple Leo. Oh my goodness. I have lots of fun. You like to show up and show out. I like to show up and show out, because that's just, I'm a visionary, I'm creator, like that's what I like just to do. And I just go for it. And a story teller right? Like her hair, like I- the history of our hair, and even like braiding, right?

And how we would braid routes to freedom into our hair. They would put rice in our hair so we would have food where we would, like this like ancestral lineage of our hairs is so like deep and like strong and amazing that like the fact that we can tell stories and everything we do. It's beautiful. It tells a beautiful journey. And then I look at not just the pop culture inspirations, but I look like Erykah Badu, I look Jill Scott, I look the women who just exude, Jhene Aiko just exudes a beautiful energy that also just transforms into their hair. And I'm like, wow, I think one pop culture one, even Dochi. Dochi has been killing it recently. Oh my gosh.

Of just the overall look, you know? Remember, was it Saturday Night Live when she did the performance and her and all of her dancers were connected with the parade? I think that was Stephen Colbert, I think it was like a late night show. It was so amazing. They were moving and dancing with their... Her hair connected to each other, dope. And that's what you mean by just the overall story that you're telling. It's not just one part of it. It's everything that pulls it all together. So yeah, I definitely think about it all the time.

From your vantage point, do you see movement when it comes to growth in terms of how first we as women of color view ourselves and how the world sees us? I'm just curious about what you're seeing in the culture. Absolutely. I mean, I think because we live in our phones, because we live in social media, it's it allows us to curate to like what we see and what we're taking in and the inspiration of that all. And we're allowed to I mean I work for a publication, but I really do find inspiration on like following folks.

Because they're allowed to story tell and tell the world that we're beautiful and look at all of the ways in which we're beautiful. We're obviously not a monolith. I have a belief that, you know, there was. A few years back, we were having this whole like, are you natural, are you not? Like that whole like internal beef. And I was like, whatever, we are magical, whether I'm giving you a 23 inch bust down, or if I have a sky high Afro. Like it's so amazing that we can create that narrative without sure there's gonna be input in trolls and that sort of thing, but you can kind of zone it out.

And the fact that I get to be a storyteller and like, put the people in the magazines that you didn't see, Michelle, growing up. Like that is, I know that that is part of my power. I might not have a lot of like money and like fame and all of that, but like I'm very intentional when I'm writing. I mean, I have a column called Yours, Mine, Ours in Cosmo, the biggest young women's media brand in the world, which is an intersection between black culture and beauty. Thank you. And so I get to be very black, black, black, Blackie Black, all the time and tell our stories.

Right? So like that for me is really magical. And I am a half glass full girl. So I do believe we're getting better and we're taking it upon ourselves. I mean, black women, like, come on, we can do anything. And we are the... The creators of our own narrative and story. And so the fact that I get to be a part of that lineage is like amazing, but we're all doing it, which I love. And I just love that our hair gets to be part of that storytelling. Yeah, I just want us to get to the point where it's all right. We're there. We're getting there.

Yeah. The choices that we make for ourselves, whether it's, like you said, natural, extensions, what is it called? The beat down? The bust down. The bust-down. Okay. I just got that. What's that? Yes. She don't do that sound. She doesn't do this sound. Look, straight backs, like whatever we want. You talk about like wearing straight backs and it's like that, all of that is not like, it's professional, it's beautiful, it it's all of the things that the world sometimes wants us to think it's not, and it is. And we get to be the ones to say, quiet that all down, we're beautiful, we are doing it, you eat.

Please eat it up because And then this point in time when it feels like there's potentially an assault on diversity, I think it becomes more important for us to not lose ground on this. And for the listeners of all races out there, what I implore you to do for this generation of girls of all colors is that. That we understand that it's up to all of us to help all of our girls or women feel beautiful just like they are. And that means how they go to school, when you see them on the bus, when they are your co-workers sitting with you.

Just remember the little biases in your head that may make you think that who they are is somehow different or giving off some message that it's not. You know, our hair is really not a message of anything except this is just who we are, maybe just today. Maybe just for this one moment. How much time we had today, we are more likely than not, not trying to tell you anything other than, you know, this is what we could make happen for ourselves at this moment, you know? And we're gonna need in this time. We're going to need a country of fellow women, a world of fellow women who get this, you know, and, and stand with us on this.

Um, and I think that'll help this next generation of little babies coming up. You know. I don't know that we've made that progress. The difference between when I was growing up and when you were growing up, when you were growing and I say it, just listening to you, being in the industry, being in DC it's a little different for me, but listening to you and you're just saying how, well, I just kind of did what I wanted and being under the public eye, you're already seeing how much progress we've made. Although at times I do feel like, it's like, man, we still got to fight this fight. We still like, I have clients that come in the salon and still say like, hmm, I'm going for an interview.

Maybe I should straighten my hair. And I'm like, no, you don't have to straighten your hair. And can you just talk a minute about the Crown Act? Yeah. Crown Act. Just so for people who aren't aware. Crown Act protects women of color with textured hair against hair-based discrimination in the workplace, in the school place locks afros, any type of. Of any sort, and it's passed in only 28 states as of July of this year 2025. And it's extremely important because I don't think people realize how much pressure it is on women of color of how they go into the workplace and how they are perceived.

And you hear stories, even when it comes down into the military of protocols of how military personnel are allowed to wear their hair. And in the workplace how they're allowed to wear their hair. So the Crown Act is really not just talking about hair-based discrimination, but it's also about education. So you were talking about Oroxine, being able to have someone on set that knows your hair texture, that is not the norm today, still in 2025. And so it also is going into teaching texture education in cosmetology schools, which is extremely important.

Absolutely. It's so important. I really hope it gets passed federally because going state by state is one thing, but if we could just make this a sweeping law that you cannot discriminate against textured hair, protective styles. I mean, remember the young boy in Jersey who was a wrestler and he had to cut his locks right there or forfeit his match? Like It's those sorts of things that are... Something we shouldn't have to think about. Again, it goes back to the idea of freedom. And we've talked about that a lot in this. Freedom of our styles, freedom for you to be able to move how you wanna move without your team.

Freedom for our children to grow up and to be be able have whatever hairstyle they want and not feel like they have to conform. Being able to go into an interview and wear your hair a certain way. We shouldn't have to be doing this mental gymnastics around our hair, just to live and thrive. Well, and also the financial and chemical gymnastics. But we're gonna get there, y'all. We're gonna be all together. We're like all doing brain to brain. Brain to brain, twist to twist. Do a little doachy. I love it. Yes! Do a lil' dance and go, canay.

But, like, it just brings you... But like this is a great way to wrap it up. I could talk to you guys for hours and hours about this. I just feel like hair is just such this beautiful connector of all of us. And like you guys wear your crowns so beautifully. Thank you so much for allowing this conversation so that the world can hear like how we... Think about our here and celebrate it and how the world should celebrate it. And we're gonna keep doing our part and like telling the stories and doing the things and there is gonna be real change.

I mean, it's already started. Let's just keep these conversations going on all the kitchen tables, all throughout the land. Thank you all. Thank you guys. You guys are amazing.

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "The Power of Hair: Identity, Legacy & Black Womanhood | The Look"?

Michelle Obama (Host), Julie Wilson (Host), Yenne Dimtu (Guest), Marseille Martin (Guest), Karl Ray (Guest), Craig Robinson (Host).

What is "The Power of Hair: Identity, Legacy & Black Womanhood | The Look" about?

This discussion focuses on the significance of hair in shaping identity and legacy for Black women, featuring personal hair journeys that highlight the challenges and cultural implications of hair care. Through the experiences of notable figures like Michelle Obama and Yenne Dimtu, the conversation unpacks the emotional connections tied to hair, particularly within the context of Black womanhood…

What is mentioned in this Michelle Obama episode?

6 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including The Look, Julie Wilson, Yenne Dimtu, Marseille Martin, Esthetics Salon. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "The Power of Hair: Identity, Legacy & Black Womanhood | The Look"?

The episode runs 1 h 19 min; the transcript is about 12,997 words in 119 timestamped sections.

More from Michelle Obama

About this transcript: the episode's spoken words as captioned on YouTube, split into timestamped sections. Reclip.Me locates every person, work and idea in the text, keeps the time it is first named, and quotes the words around it verbatim. Last updated January 24, 2026.