Episode 727: Stars over Whitechapel with Special Guest Aliza Kelly

What this episode is about

The discussion centers on the intersection of astrology and historical mysteries, focusing on "Stars Over Whitechapel," a detailed examination of the Jack the Ripper case. Special guest Aliza Kelly joins the hosts to delve into astrological insights that could shed new light on long-standing theories surrounding the infamous case, while also addressing recent claims regarding DNA evidence.

Key takeaways

• Astrology might not solve Jack the Ripper, but it sure adds zest to the skepticism stew.
• DNA evidence is like a clown car: full of surprises, but not all of them are trustworthy.
• Every few years, a 'new' Ripper theory emerges, proving that some mysteries just love a good encore.
• Mitochondrial DNA isn't a silver bullet; it's more like a confetti cannon—lots of possibilities, but no clear target.
• Jack the Ripper's case may be cold, but the debate around it is hotter than a pizza fresh out of the oven.

Who speaks in this episode?

• Elena (Host) · 38 min speaking
• Ash (Host) · 32 min speaking
• Elisa Kelly (Guest) · 51 min speaking

What is discussed, and when

1. 0:00 – 15:00: astrology, Katherine Edetos, Mary Anne Nichols, Aaron Cosminsky
2. 15:00 – 30:00: Neptune, astrology, White Chapel, Mary Jane Kelly
3. 30:00 – 45:00: Jupiter, Scorpio, Annie Chapman, astrology
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00: Jupiter, White Chapel, Neptune, Elizabeth Stride
5. 1:00:00 – 1:15:00: Neptune, White Chapel, Elizabeth Stride, astrology
6. 1:15:00 – 1:30:00: White Chapel, astrology, Mary Jane Kelly, Scorpio
7. 1:30:00 – 1:45:00: Jupiter, astrology, Scorpio, White Chapel
8. 1:45:00 – 2:00:00: Jupiter, Neptune, Scorpio, astrology
9. 2:00:00 – 2:08:13: astrology, Annie Chapman

Notable quotes from "Episode 727: Stars over Whitechapel with Special Guest Aliza Kelly"

• You guys might remember Alisa was on the show we did Stars Over Salem and Alisa gave us all of the insights on everybody's charts that was involved in that whole hysteria. We went deep into it. Go revisit that episode cuz it's.

  about Alisa Kelly · at 0:42

• Recent one where we talked about Skelea, I go on a pretty sizable rant about why they did not figure out who Jack the Ripper is with this quote unquote DNA. So, what we're…

  about DNA · at 1:49

• Buy that. Also, there's the fact that Amos Simpson was a metro cop. He was a Metropolitan Police officer. MITER Square, where Katherine Edos was found, that is London PD…

  about Katherine Edetos · at 4:21

• I don't see it come from this angle a lot. So, I know it has to be honest. If we're gonna pretend mitochondrial DNA is solving this, then why not astrology is more definitive for identifying.

  about astrology · at 12:04

• And the other piece of this is that she was murdered when the sun was in Virgo and the moon was in Gemini.

  about Mary Anne Nichols · at 15:57

• So Annie Chapman was born September 25th and she was killed September 8th.

  about Annie Chapman · at 35:19

• It's taking that energy and at on this day on September 30th, Jupiter was making an exact opposition to Neptune which is locked in with Pluto. It's that Neptune Pluto signature which is in all of these charts you know that was that's.

  about Neptune · at 51:08

• So, this is the chart where this is the only murder that takes place during Scorpio season.

  about Mary Jane Kelly · at 1:20:16

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

• Katherine Edetos — Person · Referenced victim / core case figure · 3 mentions · first at 4:27
  Fourth canonical victim (spelled 'Eddowes' historically); central to the shawl/DNA controversy, kidney removal, graffiti, and From Hell letter discussion.
• Alisa Kelly — Person · Main guest · 2 mentions · first at 0:19
  Provides astrological analysis of victims and timelines, introducing key signatures (Neptune–Pluto conjunction, Jupiter/Mars in Scorpio).
• Mary Jane Kelly — Person · Referenced victim / core case figure · 7 mentions · first at 11:07
  Final canonical victim; discussed as the most extreme escalation (indoor murder, prolonged mutilation) and tied to Scorpio season framing.
• Mary Anne Nichols — Person · Referenced victim / core case figure · 2 mentions · first at 12:24
  Discussed as the first canonical victim; her birth/death astrology is used to frame the 'origin chart' of the murders.
• Annie Chapman — Person · Referenced victim / core case figure · 5 mentions · first at 11:02
  Second canonical victim; her chart is discussed for sun/moon mirroring and escalation (organ removal, display).
• Aaron Cosminsky — Person · Referenced suspect · 2 mentions · first at 2:07
  Named as the suspect promoted by recent DNA/shawl claims; Elena explicitly rejects the conclusion.
  Going to. Mikey's going to insert that clip of me explaining why the DNA is not solving this case. It is not solved. It is not Aaron Cosminsky. Not I don't believe it at least. So, here's the rant just to remind you guys.
• Russell Edwards — Person · Referenced researcher / criticized claimant · 1 mention · first at 6:12
  Identified as the promoter of the shawl/DNA claim; Elena questions his credibility and cites a prior controversial announcement.
  And also just to put a pin on this, the researcher who has put this forward is Russell Edwards. he doesn't have a track record that I'm willing to follow here really. I'm g I…
• Elizabeth Stride — Person · Referenced victim / core case figure · 6 mentions · first at 11:05
  Third canonical victim; discussed as likely interrupted attack and part of the 'double event' night.
  So, in this case, she had her throat cut, but no additional mutilation happened.
• Adolf Ash — Person · Co-host · 1 mention · first at 0:02
  Co-host who reacts, adds prior-episode context, and supports the discussion of Whitechapel conditions and victim narratives.
  Combining the two [ __ ] articles. I like it. So yeah, this is I'm really excited to talk about this. Everybody who listens to Borbid knows how obsessed I am with the Jack the…
• Elisa — Person · Co-host · 2 mentions · first at 0:02
  Co-host present for the episode; participates in reactions and prompts around evidence and victim details.
  Heyo. Well, heyo. We have Alisa Kelly on the podcast again.
• Tobias Forge — Person · Referenced prior guest · 1 mention · first at 1:40
  Referenced as a previous episode where Elena discussed DNA skepticism and Tobias Forge noted practical issues with the 'top hat/cape' myth.
  Insert Elena's rant. And the thing is, I don't if you didn't listen to our episode with Tobias Forge, our f very first one.
• Ian Brady — Person · Referenced criminal case comparator · 1 mention · first at 6:28
  Mentioned in a credibility critique of Russell Edwards, referencing a false claim about locating a victim connected to Ian Brady.
  Provide more evidence, but he also claimed once and so did his team that they found a victim of Ian Brady and Myra Henley that has been missing for decades and decades, Keith…
• Myra Henley — Person · Referenced criminal case comparator · 1 mention · first at 6:28
  Mentioned alongside Ian Brady in the critique of Russell Edwards’s prior false announcement regarding Keith Bennett.
  Provide more evidence, but he also claimed once and so did his team that they found a victim of Ian Brady and Myra Henley that has been missing for decades and decades, Keith…
• Bob Bennett — Person · Referenced missing victim · 1 mention · first at 6:33
  Used as an example of a harmful false claim attributed to Russell Edwards’s team, undermining trust in his Jack the Ripper assertions.
  Myra Henley that has been missing for decades and decades, Keith Bennett. and his family has been looking for his body on those moors forever and hoping to find his body on…

Concepts & topics

• astrology — Concept · Core analytical framework · 20 mentions · first at 1:05
  Primary method proposed to interpret patterns across victims and timelines (e.g., Neptune–Pluto conjunction, sun/moon mirroring).
• DNA — Concept · Debated evidence concept · 1 mention · first at 5:35
  Used to critique modern claims that the case is solved; discussion focuses on mitochondrial DNA limits and chain-of-custody issues.
• Neptune — Concept · Astrological planet used in analysis · 18 mentions · first at 22:55
  Used to explain the case’s enduring mystique (illusion, mist, camera lens) and as part of the Neptune–Pluto conjunction signature.
• Scorpio — Concept · Astrological sign used in analysis · 16 mentions · first at 29:45
  Used to interpret violence/escalation signatures (Mars/Jupiter in Scorpio) and the timing of Mary Jane Kelly during Scorpio season.
  So, this is the chart where this is the only murder that takes place during Scorpio season.
• Pluto — Concept · Astrological planet used in analysis · 3 mentions · first at 22:53
  Key planet in the episode: part of the rare Neptune–Pluto conjunction and used to frame themes of death, power, and legacy.
  From 1888 until the early 1890s, we had a very rare astrological occurrence happening, which is that we had a conjunction between Neptune and Pluto.
• Jupiter — Concept · Astrological planet used in analysis · 23 mentions · first at 29:45
  Discussed as an amplifier of themes (Jupiter in Scorpio; Jupiter switching into Sagittarius) and as a timing marker (Jupiter return).
  So Jupiter was in Scorpio during this time.
• Virgo — Concept · Astrological sign used in analysis · 1 mention · first at 35:40
  Used to interpret victim charts and death-chart mirroring (e.g., Virgo sun at time of murders; Virgo moon for Annie Chapman).
  But I am. I love a birthday. But again, killed under a Virgo sun.

Places & events

• White Chapel — Place · Primary setting · 15 mentions · first at 1:05
  The neighborhood where the murders occurred; discussed for its conditions, policing jurisdiction conflicts, and enduring lore.
  And today we're going to be doing Stars Over White Chapel, which is Elena's Magnum Opus.
• Miter Square — Place · Crime scene location · 2 mentions · first at 4:27
  Discussed as the location of Katherine Eddowes’s murder and as part of jurisdiction/chain-of-custody skepticism about the shawl.
  Buy that. Also, there's the fact that Amos Simpson was a metro cop. He was a Metropolitan Police officer. MITER Square, where Katherine Edos was found, that is London PD…

Media & podcasts

• Borbid — Media · Primary show (as referenced) · 2 mentions · first at 4:04
  Named as the show the audience listens to; frames Elena’s ongoing obsession with the case and continuity with prior coverage.
  Combining the two [ __ ] articles. I like it. So yeah, this is I'm really excited to talk about this. Everybody who listens to Borbid knows how obsessed I am with the Jack the…
• Stars Over Salem — Media · Referenced prior episode/series · 2 mentions · first at 0:42
  Cited as a previous collaboration with Alisa Kelly where she analyzed charts related to Salem; used to establish credibility and format.
  That happened with the Salem witch trials, too.

Full transcript with timestamps

0:00 Hey weirdos. I'm Elena. I'm Ash. I'm Elisa. And this is a very special mob bed.

0:19 Heyo. Well, heyo. We have Alisa Kelly on the podcast again. Yay. Yay. We're so excited for you to be here.

0:27 So excited to be here with you both. It is always a treat when you're here. We always have so much fun. It is always so fascinating.

0:33 We have pizza. We're having a pizza party. We have pizza. We have buffalo dip somewhere that we didn't even take out yet. Yeah, we're going to revisit that after.

0:41 Okay. Okay. You guys might remember Alisa was on the show we did Stars Over Salem and Alisa gave us all of the insights on everybody's charts that was involved in that whole hysteria. We went deep into it. Go revisit that episode cuz it's fascinating. We were just like jaws on the floor the whole time. We just relisted to some of that and I was like, damn, that was a good episode.

1:03 It was so fun. And today we're going to be doing Stars Over White Chapel, which is Elena's Magnum Opus.

1:12 Yes. Yes. Yep. And as I was saying before we started here, I think that this might be the thing that solves it.

1:21 It's not working from all the other systems, right? It's been astrology. It's like 140 years almost, right?

1:30 Exactly. And that's the thing because a lot of people think that they've figured this out. A lot of people think that this has been solved.

1:37 Insert Elena's rant. And the thing is, I don't if you didn't listen to our episode with Tobias Forge,

1:46 our f very first one. Yeah. No, our second one. our most recent one where we talked about Skelea, I go on a pretty sizable rant about why they did not figure out who Jack the Ripper is with this quote unquote DNA. So, what we're going to do right now is I'm going to insert I'm not going to. Mikey's going to insert that clip of me explaining why the DNA is not solving this case. It is not solved. It is not Aaron Cosminsky. Not I don't believe it at least. So, here's the rant just to remind you guys. So, here's the thing. I don't think they have found Jack the Ripper. Not one part of me thinks it. In fact, um there's many reasons for that. The fact that this has been a thing that comes around every few years is a big red flag to me and it's the same person bringing it around every few years and not really updating any of the actual info. Uh that shawl that they're claiming they have this DNA from is a shaw that they're

2:43 claiming is f was found at Katherine Edeto's crime scene. Um one they have no way of knowing that. The only way of knowing that would be if it was among the exhaustive list of her items that were found at um on and around her at the crime scene. That is well documented and it is nowhere. There is nowhere that says there is like an 8- foot long really expensive shawl that might actually even be a table runner found on her person. Nowhere. So, if we don't have that, then how do we know that this thing is hers? And how do we know that it was found at the crime scene? Here's your answer. We don't. So, there's a big giant hole of doubt that has already been thrust through this entire thing.

3:25 Uh, I don't think it was found at the crime scene. I think she would have sold it at one point. I don't think she would have held on to that kind of shaw. I mean, there's all kinds of stories of her selling, you know, shoes earlier in the day and selling anything that was on her. Uh, it just doesn't make sense to me. I don't I don't buy that one at all. Furthermore, the story of this whole thing is that uh Sergeant Amos Simpson was the one who is said to have taken this shaw from the crime scene. A supposed blood soaked shawl he took from the crime scene. One, that would have been a immense risk to do that. And two, I think we all need to remember what I said a thousand times during our Jack the Ripper series. We can't really comprehend how dark these crime scenes were. There was no light.

4:12 We're going by candle light. You're telling me that this man plucked a blood soaked shaw from a crime scene and just brought it home for his wife? I don't buy that. Also, there's the fact that Amos Simpson was a metro cop. He was a Metropolitan Police officer. MITER Square, where Katherine Edos was found, that is London PD jurisdiction. He has no business being there. And even if he is there, he has no business at that crime scene. So, that gives me pause. The DNA, the DNA, we don't even know what it is. It might be blood. It might be semen. They have no definitive answer for that. So that 100% match I don't believe. They don't even know what the actual DNA source is for this. And also there is no evidence of him leaving seaman at scenes. Of course he can depart from his pattern. Of course that's happened before. I am fully willing to admit that and I'm willing to accept that if there's other pieces of

5:16 evidence along with it. But the fact that he never did this and there was never evidence of any classic sexual assault or rape at any of these scenes, it was really violence and mutilation, it doesn't really fit with the pattern. And once again, I'm willing to admit that a pattern can be broken if you give me other evidence to tell me that that's so. I just don't see it here. The DNA itself, it's mitochondrial DNA. That's what they're not telling you in any of these things. This is not straight up DNA. This is mitochondrial DNA. It can eliminate a suspect but it cannot identify a suspect. Absolute anyone in the maternal line of this DNA match can also be the person. This is can be thousands of people. Thousands of people in London can match this DNA. So that's not good enough for me. That's not identifying that is you can eliminate.

6:06 And also just to put a pin on this, the researcher who has put this forward is Russell Edwards. uh he doesn't have a track record that I'm willing to follow here really. Um I'm g I will of course give benefit of the doubt if he can provide more evidence, but he also claimed once and so did his team that they found um a victim of Ian Brady and Myra Henley that has been missing for decades and decades, Keith Bennett. Uh and his family has been looking for his body on those moors forever and hoping to find his body on those moors. and it was really [ __ ] up that his team basically announced on social media that they had found Keith Bennett and they hadn't. Uh, so that upsets me. That makes me question it. Of course, one massive monumental mistake doesn't mean that you can never do anything good in your life. So, if he can provide more evidence that says this is a 100% DNA match, which I don't believe he can,

7:03 then I'm willing to listen to it. But no, Aaron Cosminsky is not Jack the Ripper.

7:09 Mic drop. So that's why in conclusion, I I need the copy and paste file of that. I need to also just like insert the rant

7:22 after the various other audio moments. We'll play it for you after this because I I was pretty hyped up during that. So like let me explain why.

7:30 Rightfully so. It makes sense. Everything you said makes sense. Yeah, cuz I think it's recently like surfaced again and re I'm pretty sure like Australia heard about it recently. like this random news station in Australia reported that it's been solved

7:45 and so it's gone around Tik Tok all over the place. I'm getting tagged in it which I appreciate so much that you guys tag me in anything Jack the Ripper related. Keep doing that. Love it.

7:53 Oh yeah. Uh but I figured I should probably let you know that cuz everyone's like, "What do you think about it?" I'm like, "Let me tell you what I think about Well, this is very interesting because I it's reminding me of one of the astrology phenomenons that comes up periodically, which is that there's always, you know, every so often at with some sort of cadence there is some big expose on,

8:16 oh my god, astrology is wrong. Yep. There's the signs have moved. They are not where they were

8:25 1500 years ago. like all of these silly astrologers haven't considered the procession of the equinox and every time I get tagged and there was a big one in the New York Times that came out and people are like what do you think of this and I'm like it's the same piece they tell you they just keep revisiting this

8:42 they do and they keep not talking to any astrologers and they keep sort of like regurgitating it and then the headlines are always breaking news

8:49 and that's exactly what it is and it's like and you get why that like the headline would grabbing like it's just like wow we figured like

8:58 it's clickbait we've we've broken this wide open and it's like whoa. So it's I mean I when I first saw the headlines that were like DNA has solved Jack the Ripper case I was like [ __ ] yeah let's go

9:09 and then I read it and I said I looked up who did it and I said oh wait and then

9:15 this guy again. Yeah this guy seen his name literally. So just so you guys know I don't think it's been solved. I think we I think we can solve it maybe here today or just solve it tonight personally. Yes.

9:27 So stay tuned for this. It's happening. And the next clickbait is get the ripper solves through astrology.

9:36 We just combined the eat your hat New York Times. A new article that can go everywhere. Just combining the two [ __ ] articles. I like it. So yeah, this is I'm really excited to talk about this. Everybody who listens to Borbid knows how obsessed I am with the Jack the Ripper case and that I think I officially became a ripperologist during our research of it. I think actually one of our listeners and I don't know if I've mentioned this sent me a pin that says ripperologist

10:04 and it's on one of your jackets and it's on my favorite leather jacket that I wear all the time. So, thank you for that if you sent it.

10:10 Also made I actually multiple people made you the certificate, right? And emailed them. Yes. I need to I need to print them out and put them up. put them everywhere

10:17 like like Harvard, you know, doctorates and everything. I'll just put Well, next to your letter.

10:23 Yeah, my the from letter. Perfect. We got to display it all. A little spot. Yeah, I love it. That Hey, that'll give me some motivation.

10:31 There you go. Um but yeah, so we love this case is just fascinating. It's the And I'll say it again. It's the number one unsolved case. Unsolved case in the world. I mean, it's it really is. And if with so many there's so many canonical victims for this one. It's so brutal. The I mean the infighting between the police departments. It's got everything in this case.

10:55 You have it all. You really do. Yeah. So I think what we'll do is we'll probably just we're going to start going through um the five canonical victims. Maryanne Paulie Nichols, Annie Chapman, Elizabeth Stride, Katherine Edetos, and Mary Jane Kelly, which is

11:10 the crescendo. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's it's definitely Mary Jane Kelly is considered the last canonical victim. And a lot of people will say like they think that it kept going. I don't think it kept going.

11:21 No. I think we talked about that on our original coverage. Where do you go from there?

11:24 Where do you go from there? That's it. It makes sense that it would end there. Mhm. You know.

11:29 Yes. Yeah. Though depending on who you might have think was Jack the Ripper, that could change.

11:36 Yes. Okay. See, I'm already excited. I'm already excited for this. Maybe you just change your approach.

11:44 Okay. Right. Maybe you switch it up. I like that. Yeah. I like that. You've had enough of that kind of brutality. Now you go into more of a

11:52 psychological Yeah. Okay. Maybe try something new. Dip your toe in a different pond.

11:57 See, maybe this is it. Maybe astrology is going to solve this. I mean, it's a different shot.

12:02 It's a different angle. It's a different angle. I don't see it come from this angle a lot. So, I know it has to be honest. If we're gonna pretend mitochondrial DNA is solving this, then why not

12:13 astrology is more is more definitive for identifying things than mitochondrial DNA is. So, I think so.

12:20 There you go. All right. So, who who are we going to start with? So, let's start with Mary Anne Nichols, Paulie Nichols,

12:28 our first canonical victim. So I should note you know and this is similar to what we had also acknowledged with Salem is that we don't have a lot of times here

12:39 and in astrology the best way to calculate a birth chart is date time and location. So we are missing that very critical time piece which is going to tell us rising sign. It's going to show us which houses um all of these different planets fall in. The houses show us sort of the themes of life. They also can help us understand timing. So, we're missing that piece. So, in a lot of the in the majority of the birth charts that we're going to pull, unless we had a very specific hour for something, we're going to look at the planets and the relationships that the planets are making. We're not going to be able to discern the rising sign from these.

13:18 That makes sense. Yeah. So, Mary Anne Nichols was born August 26, 1845 in London, England. She is, was, is, is I always say is with a chart because

13:33 the chart is still living. I was I just listened to the episode where you went over that and I was like that is I love that concept.

13:40 Like it goes out. And another really interesting thing is that and we'll probably see this in some of our in in some of these characters today is that when somebody comes back into the zeitgeist or the collective psyche, their chart is being activated,

13:57 right? So we'll often see that like even albums that are released after an artist's death or something, you'll look and you'll be like, "Oh, they're having their third or fourth Saturn return at that time." like their chart is still being activated and still experiencing the passage of time and energy to it.

14:13 That's so wild existential. Yeah. Yeah. It's really beautiful. Also, it is really beautiful.

14:19 It's a really cool way of exploring legacy and a lot of these, you know, Maryanne Nichols, Paulie Nichols, as the first person who was murdered in in the canonical 5, the first victim of this. Um there are so many interesting things that I say this thing called tank which means there are no coincidences.

14:41 I like that. I love that. This is this is a case of tank. Okay. So she was is a Virgo sun and a Gemini moon.

14:52 So these are two mercurial ruled placements. Um both Virgo and Gemini report to the planet Mercury which is communication. It's language. It's storytelling. It's our understanding of things. So, you know, not knowing all of her chart without that time of birth, what we can sort of discern here is that she was smart. She was interested in things. She was curious. Um, she was somebody who also was very discerning. She was she had this sort of extrovert, introvert, in-n-out kind of quality to her where she could be sort of like very blabbermouthy, say the wrong thing at the very wrong time, but then also could pull it back and be like, "Wait, but I have to get my life together. I got to get organized." So, there was this sort of like back and forth quality. And it was all very much about her communication and being understood. Now, the reason that this is incredibly fascinating is because number one, she's

15:52 not the only person who is a Virgo sun, Gemini moon here. Interesting. Wow. And the other piece of this is that she was murdered when the sun was in Virgo and the moon was in Gemini.

16:04 Shut up. Whoa. Oh, that's weird. What are the odd? There are no coincidences. Like, it's like what are the odds of that? So

16:12 she truly establishes this story not just in her birth chart and who she is but also in in the chart of her death and the chart of her death is also the chart of the first murder. It's the chart that establishes the Jack the Ripper story.

16:32 Wow. So these two, like it's almost like, you know, and this is obviously a little out there for some people, but it's almost like we don't have

16:40 Jack the Ripper if we didn't have Polly Nichols. And it's almost like perhaps there was something about her

16:48 and their encounter in particular that set off this killing spree that this person went on. Because how else could it be that this per I mean she was murdered just a few days before her or after her birthday. She was murdered on August 31st, 1888. She was born August 26th just a few days after her 43rd birthday

17:11 while she was having her so her solar return, her birthday and her lunar return. The moon was in her sign.

17:16 Wow. So very very interesting to sort of establish and set the scene with this person in this context on this night.

17:28 That's really interesting. That is fascinating. Like again that just the odds of that.

17:33 Yes. Don't compete. Yeah. Like that's astronomical. something you said too like when you first started talking about her that she's a Gemini moon and then a Virgo sun and you were saying like other people in this case are that and how it's like I really have to get my life together and like that kind of thing. Something we talked about when we when we originally covered the Jack the Ripper case was that so many of these women were at a point in their lives where they were really trying to get their lives together and they were like just about to get there. So it is interesting that you brought that up.

18:02 Yeah. And that it's a key theme now in the astrology too, like in their charts,

18:06 right? And if we see astrology, so like what I I love so much about this is that we have her chart and then we have her death chart, but that death chart is also a beginning chart.

18:17 Her death chart is the beginning of the Jack the Ripper murders, right? So it is the end and it's like this pass this passageway, this portal, this threshold happening, an ending and a beginning. Um, and it's almost like the qualities that she had, especially in that essence of like kind of stumbling and then picking herself back up and then stumbling and picking herself back up almost is the story of perhaps even the murderer himself, right? Like maybe there is some mirroring that happen. reflection because if that was her story, she got murdered under a sky that was very similar to the guy she was born under that it's almost like the perfect storm

19:01 of this person sort of being like, you know what, [ __ ] it. Like this, we're doing it. This is what's happening.

19:08 Wow. It gives me like chills. I know. It's really eerie. It's so eerie. Yeah. And it describes Polly as a person. that whole like picking herself up, falling like her whole life, because we went into it a little on our um episode, her whole life was like trying to pick herself back up a hundred different times and like something knocking her back down and it was from like when she was younger, too.

19:31 Yeah. It was just like a child. It was just her story. Yeah. Yeah. Another interesting thing is that she was born with Saturn in Aquarius and on the night of her murder and and during this time throughout the murders actually, Saturn is in Leo. So Aquarius and Leo are opposite signs. So when she was murdered, she was going through her Saturn opposition.

19:52 And so this is sort of like the the flip side of your Saturn return. Okay. This is Saturn represents responsibilities and rules. It's this very sort of like tough daddy energy. So when you go, it is your planet. Yes, it is.

20:09 And when you go through your Saturn return, there's this sort of reckoning of of the rules, right? like growing up and maturing and becoming who you're supposed to be. Your Saturn opposition is kind of when you're also facing similar circumstances, right? You're sort of like looking at your life and looking at your choices. Not to say this should have been how she had to reconcile it by any means, but you know, 140 years after these tragedies occurred, we can also sort of think of of the fact that we're talking about these people

20:40 in a destiny faded, legacied, storied way, which is certainly not the case for so many people who lost their lives in White Chapel at this time. Right? These people have were really important for us continuing to tell their stories as archetypes and as as symbols of what it was like to live in these conditions at this time and be so sort of like beat down by all of the forces that working against you.

21:10 Oh yeah. I mean when you go into this time period in White Chapel in particular,

21:15 it was awful. That's why there were times when we were covering this and Ash was like, "Oh my god, I got to step out of this for a little while. It was so dismal and so dreary and gloomy and there was just like it it felt like there was no end in sight to just like the

21:29 the dreiness of it. You know what I mean? Like everyone was struggling. Everything was dirty and just like dark and

21:36 everybody was trying to make their way but like there was no way out their problems. Yeah, it literally is hell and he feels it feels like he swept in here and just became a personification of it essentially,

21:51 right? Yeah. And also, you know, in in this really weird way, we can talk about that now, you know, from the luxury of these lovely couches, but also recall what it was like to be in those conditions where if there wasn't Polly Nichols getting murdered under the same sun and moon that she was born under,

22:13 then we wouldn't be talking about it. You know, we wouldn't be talking about what it was like to live in that time. No, we wouldn't even probably wouldn't even know what it felt like to live in White Chapel at that time or know any of that.

22:24 Not at all. No. Very So, it's a really interesting start. It is. Um, I also want to call out another signature that we're going to see throughout all of this, which is really profound. And I I have goosebumps looking at this and I hope that I can convey this to you when I share it, which is that during this time 1888, from 1888 until the early 1890s, we had a very rare astrological occurrence happening, which is that we had a conjunction between Neptune and Pluto. So just as a you know ju just to sort of we have not had this since and we will not have it again until almost the year 2400.

23:08 Wow. Until the 2390s. Holy [ __ ] So this does not h this doesn't happen in most people's lifetime.

23:16 This is significant. Truly. [clears throat] Yeah. This is a very unique thing to happen and to encounter. If this was happening in our lifetime, astrologers would not even know what to do with themselves. Wow. It's so wild because Neptune has a cycle an orbit of 165 years. Pluto has an orbit of 248 years.

23:35 So for them to link up takes a really really long time because they are such these are the two furthest celestial bodies we track in astrology.

23:43 Yeah, that makes sense. Neptune represents illusion, delusion, fantasy. Um it's it's mystery.

23:51 Oh, it's mist quite literally. It's it's things dissolving. It's things disappearing. And Pluto is the underworld. It is death.

24:03 Yeah. It is big, deep transformation. And Neptune, this misty, elusive, mysterious, eerie, sort of like enchanted supernatural energy combined with Pluto's own darkness and heaviness and supernatural like this is White Chapel.

24:21 It literally set the tone. Yeah, this is actually this is like mindboggling. Especially when you go into like the mystery and the like even just mist

24:30 mist. I was just going to say even more you think of when you think of White Chapel you think of misty hazy like

24:38 dark like full of death and full of pain and full of like mystery. It's like we're still here talking about mystery

24:47 and that's the enduring. Yes. That's the the legacy of it, right? And then Pluto, just death.

24:53 Death. Mystery haze. Death. Yes. Like, holy [ __ ] That's actually That's actually insane.

25:00 It's insane. That's wild. And so like we really need to just point out how insane it is that we'll never experience that. We never have and like most people won't. That That's crazy to me that it's not going to happen again for that long.

25:11 It's not going to happen again, you know, for many many many versions of our grandchildren.

25:17 Like it's such a specific circumstance. And this case has that energy, that one-of-a-kind, yeah, thing to it because it's like we've seen so many awful cases since then, obviously, but this one has stuck in everyone's mind as like the most fascinating one, the most enduring one, the most brutal one, the one that everybody just like upset like it becomes everybody's hyperfixation. It's like, but there's many more that are also brutal cases. Why is this the one?

25:47 You know what it is? I I feel like part of this being the one is that it feels like lore. It feels like legend.

25:53 It does. And I feel like the Neptune role of it all, the Neptune. And there's also something Yeah. There's something paranormal about it.

26:02 That was honestly like one of the things that was one of the theories people had was was this a vampire? Was this a ghost? Was this somebody supernatural? Even Mikey thinks it's a vampire. He thinks I do.

26:14 But it was one of those things people talked about. He has to be a ghost. How can he get in there and get out of there

26:20 so quickly? Like, how is he never seen by anybody? Like, it it has a paranormal aspect to it.

26:25 It absolutely does. Another thing that's interesting about this is that Neptune represents um the camera. It represents the lens.

26:34 And one of the things in my research around this that I kept having to be jump scared by at 2 o'clock in the morning are the photos.

26:43 Oh, yeah. Of of these people. The photos. the autopsy photos, the crime scene photo of Mary Jane Kelly. I saw those in high school for the first time and those will remain in your brain forever once you see them.

26:54 Exactly. And that is Neptune, the camera lens, and then Pluto, the death and the legacy and that sort of joining forces. And I think that is one of the reasons also that this case is is so enduring. Yeah. Is that we have just enough technology and documentation to be able to not just say like and it was brutal, but be like even by our like overexposed video game standards. This is [ __ ] up, right?

27:22 Yeah. Like when you describe the Mary Jane Kelly crime scene, your mind can't even conjure at all what that photo is going to show you. cuz that photo you're like that's a person in that bed like it's and you describe it you know that he disfigured her to the point of not even knowing that that's a person on the bed

27:41 and you can describe it as much as you want but that picture will haunt you for the rest of your life if you look at it and like you said it's just enough technology that we got those photos

27:50 I was just going to say like they're some of the first crime scene photos we have

27:53 Exactly in existence. Exactly. So, this was occurring in the sign of Gemini, which is also very interesting. You're back.

28:02 That happened with the with the Salem witch trials, too. Well, and I think that we might have talked about way back then, a year ago, how Uranus is moving into Gemini.

28:13 We're even closer to that now than we were then. But I think what's interesting about that is, you know, we talk about charts being living and breathing entities. And we have this Neptune Pluto conjunction in early degrees of Gemini which is where Uranus is going. Uranus is often considered the planet Uranus's innovation um breakthroughs discoveries shocking things. It's also often considered the planet of astrology. So I think we are going to solve it through astrology thesis.

28:46 Yes, I'm for this. But even for those who push back and say, "But what about the what about the DNA? What about the science?" Honey,

28:57 some things some things we need the ancient texts for. Yes. And we don't have the right DNA here. No, everybody. We don't have that including babe. We got to move to the adjacent thing here.

29:08 Yes. Yes. We got we got got to keep pivoting. Got to keep pivoting. And hey, if we maybe we can use the astrology to confirm the mitochondrial DNA because that's all it's used for. It's not used to identify. I say it again,

29:22 but maybe this is what it or maybe it's going to it's going to confirm what I say that that's not the killer.

29:29 There's a few more things that I want to just mention um because this chart is again the birth chart of these murders, right? So this is maybe the most important chart that we have in all of them right? um her death chart, our beginning of a story chart.

29:45 So Jupiter was in Scorpio during this time. It was in its final degrees of Scorpio. At this time um of her death, it was at 28°. Mars, the planet that is often considered the most violent planet, is also in Scorpio.

30:00 Mars is like war. I was going to say, doesn't that represent? Yeah, there's Yeah, there's like a also a knife is one of the images associated with Mars. truly it's like a blade, a weapon is is one of its associations.

30:14 Mars and Jupiter conjunct both in Scorpio. Mars at 22 degrees, Jupiter at 28°. Um, also just to sort of like contextualize Jupiter and Scorpio. Um, Jupiter is the planet of expansion. It enhances whatever where wherever it is. And Scorpio is associated with the sort of like our own shadow,

30:40 our own darkness. Yeah. So my working theory, right, is that there's something around Paulie Nichols that triggers this impulse.

30:51 Okay. In in our murderer, right? Okay. And that is triggered by Jupiter in Scorpio conjunct Mars in Scorpio.

31:01 It's this like rage energy. Yes. And she was a real like she stood her ground like she like Paulolly Nichols was like not taking [ __ ]

31:11 So maybe that was one of the things that potentially something that all every single victim has in common is that they all had their throat their throats slashed, right? They all couldn't talk to one of the things that is defining about her as a Virgo sun Gemini moon is her communication. I was just going to say yeah

31:30 and that is also embedded in this chart as a sun in Virgo and a Gemini moon and then also with that Neptune Pluto Gemini signature. So something that I then proceeded to do for the rest of these especially for our suspects is to look to see where is that conjunction activating their chart.

31:52 Okay. Because to me like that's a really interesting piece of information. It's a consistent thing I was and it's and it's something that a lot of people talked about because nobody heard a lot during this and it's, you know, this was in the middle of the night.

32:07 You're going to hear someone scream, you know, like it's pretty quiet out there. No one would hear a lot of things and it's because he would immediately immediately silence them from behind or whatever he would do. So, it's like that really was his first

32:21 priority. And that silencing to me, especially if we think of this triggering him somehow, her triggering him, this energy triggering him is like maybe that's a clue,

32:35 right? Is something about like speech and vocalization. Doesn't want to hear it. Doesn't want to hear it. Doesn't want and maybe he was silenced, right? sort of like a deep psychological trigger that has driven him in one's

32:54 I don't want to hear it. Yeah, I guess that could easily be like and we could go right back to like the trope of the overbearing, you know, mother.

33:01 It was literally right in my head. Maybe he had a mother who, you know, never stopped.

33:06 That's interesting because there are some suspects with big mothers, big mommy issues.

33:11 Big mommy energy. Because you think about like these are like sex motivated crimes. It's like sex workers and I wouldn't be surprised back of it all.

33:21 Exactly. I feel like he could have like an Edge Gene type mom figure that was kind of overbearing. overly possibly over religious, possibly overbearing about like sexuality, shamed about something shaming.

33:34 Like it feels like that's part of or was constantly talking about women such as our canonical five who happened to be sex workers. I guarantee you he heard in part of his life horrible things about these kind of women. Yeah.

33:49 And so he felt some kind of rage against them, you know? Right. and then being like the little [ __ ] he is goes to like the people who are the most helpless, right?

33:58 Yes. And decides to do or I mean maybe his mom was a white. That's kind of what I was thinking and he was getting revenge, you know, because that also just really lends itself to to the theory that he did have a medical background because this is somebody that maybe came from a situation that wasn't so great. You know, like his mom was struggling to get by, maybe they didn't have a good relationship. he got out of there and these women reminded him.

34:23 Yeah. And he wanted to strike back. Yeah. And he hated that. So that's where it came from. Yeah.

34:27 Yeah. It's a possibility. There's There's all of this like I I just I think I spend so much time with this chart cuz I'm like this is it, right? Like if we're going to find something, it's going to be here, right here in how it started and its origin story. And you found a lot.

34:41 The villain origin story literally literally is this chart. This I'm I'll give this to you to add to your collection of things to

34:48 Oh my god. I'll frame it. Yeah. No, it's it is the villain origin story. Fascinating.

34:54 It really is. So then we have victim number two. We have Annie Chapman. Annie Chapman. And this was about a month later or no, this was not a month later. This is another case of his birthday corresponding.

35:09 Yeah, there was a lot of that. Yeah, they were the quick succession. I remember when we were talking about it originally, I was like, "Oh my god, it's always right around their birthdays that they get killed."

35:17 Yeah. Cuz this was right in September. So Annie Chapman was born September 25th and she was killed September 8th.

35:23 Yeah. So this was another situation of this was right after a birthday. This was about to celebrate a birthday. I mean, I don't know who's like actually having like a

35:30 any celebration like who's doing pin the tail on the donkey here, but but I am. I love I love a birthday. But again, killed under a Virgo sun.

35:42 So she is a Libra sun with a Virgo moon and she was killed under the exact flip of it.

35:49 She was killed under a Virgo sun with a Libra moon. Right. So this is another one of those like very tank eerie sort of mirroring things that is happening.

35:58 Complete opposite. What are the odds? Yeah. So Annie um a different energy, a different kind of a character astrologically, a different birth chart profile. I mean, similarities. They're born,

36:10 you know, in the same types of conditions. They're 5 years apart. Um, but with her Libra sun and her Virgo moon, we're seeing someone who is diplomatic. We're seeing someone who is is very actively sort of like trying to, you know, harmonize, make things good, make things better for herself. Mhm.

36:33 I She has a Virgo moon and every Virgo moon I have ever met is so hard on themselves.

36:38 Yeah. Every Virgo moon I have ever met is very and could be very self-deprecating. Um, and when I was reading about sort of her circumstances and what was leading up to this night, uh, September 8th, when she's murdered, it seems like it was just like one of those like she's just like can't get a break. Just can't catch a break, right?

37:01 Which is such a theme. Such a theme. and this feeling of just like I in her case I think that she was a little bit more there was a little more giving up

37:13 in her situation I think so she had she had kind of become her nickname her nickname was dark Annie and it was cuz she drank a lot and she got like pretty gnarly when she drank and I think she tried to get away from that and then it sounds like she just kind of sheed into it a little bit

37:28 she had lost a lot by the time she had lost and she was very like skilled in a lot of ways like she crocheted. I believe she like did a lot of like that kind of stuff and she was able to like sell that stuff for a little while and she tried to lean back on that but it just wouldn't work out for her. Something would happen that would knock her off, you know, the right path or that path

37:48 and then she would just end up back here. So I feel like there it happened so many times that it does feel like she started just leaning into the dark Annie.

37:56 Yeah. Kind of thing. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. it, you know, the these sort of signatures in her chart.

38:02 To me, it's sort of it it's very it's sad because I get the sense that she really wanted to live a different and better life.

38:09 She really did. And she was like, we have some other characters who kind of are just like, "No, this is my this is my vibe. This is my story."

38:17 Honestly, even Polly more, right? Polly is more just like this is here. Here we are. Like, you love me, hate me. It's white. It's white. Yeah. Exactly.

38:25 Exactly. What are you going to do? white housewife reveal. I love that. But with this one, with this person, I think that like she was really sort of at the end of her rope.

38:35 Yeah, absolutely. And she was interestingly at the time of her death um going through her Jupiter return.

38:43 She has Jupiter in Scorpio in her chart. That only happens every 12 years. For our lovely listeners, don't think that when you have your Jupiter return, you're going to end up being slain by

38:52 Yeah. Don't think an unsolved Jack the Ripper. But in her case, you know, again, I'm thinking of it of like why these people, why are these our archetypes? Why are these the people who are telling the story? Why are these the people that we're still telling their stories all of this time later? And for her, like there for all of them, there's a legacy piece in this. And I think part of this legacy piece was for her just like this is the end of the line. Yeah.

39:18 She that she reached the end of the line of many, many decades of of tragedy and suffering.

39:24 Yeah. trying to better it. Yeah. Her Jupiter return being in Scorpio I feel like is so significant because that's a pretty dark placement for Jupiter right?

39:33 It can be. I mean, it's it certainly is. You know, something to as a reference point for our Jupiter and Scorpio is that

39:40 we had Jupiter and Scorpio during most recently during the Me Too era. Mhm. So, it was sort of during this this big reveal of all of the uh abuses and power dynamics and the way that people were abusing um the hierarchy and the systems and taking advantage of women was when the last time that we culturally experienced Jupiter and Scorpio. So, there is a deep correlation to sex and sexuality, to shame, to darkness, to to things that we don't talk about. I mean like Harvey Weinstein is to me like and his that big exposure around him ew is him is Jupiter and Scorpio. He is the essence of Jupiter and Scorpio to me, you know. Okay. [clears throat]

40:26 So that feels so significant that when she died, you know. Absolutely. And her death was

40:32 an intensified version of what we had experienced with Polly, right? Mhm. We she had her throat cut. She had her abdomen opened,

40:41 her uterus removed, intestines placed over her shoulder. Mhm. Um, the removal, what do you think about the removal of the organs? And why couldn't they find them?

40:52 That's the thing. Because do you think he took them? Yeah, I was going to say I think he's got trophies. Yeah, he had them because I that from hell letter

41:00 it, you know, it's it's highly hotly contested of whether that's real or not, but that it did come with a piece of a human kidney and it was tested and it was a human kidney.

41:10 So, who knows? It could. And [clears throat] I think he was probably planning on doing more of that kind of [ __ ] with it, but I think he just ran out of time or he decided it wasn't on the clock. said, you know, like I can't keep doing this or he or he just thought it was a little too close of a call.

41:26 That's what I was thinking like he had gone a step too far and he was risking it.

41:31 Exactly. BTK BTK it. He didn't want to just like give the disc and be like, "No, it's fine.

41:36 Yeah, you can't trace me with this." Right. I think he kept them. I think he kept them as trophies. Interesting that the the intestines were thrown over her shoulder. I always found that really interesting.

41:47 That does feels intentional. Yeah. You don't just whip intestines over someone's shoulder. It's not easy to do. Like that's you unra like intestines aren't just like willy-nilly in you. You got to like take them out and do that.

42:00 Kind of unravel them. Like that's that's not by chance. Was she one of the I remember one of the particular victims really carried like every article of clothing that they had. Was she one of those?

42:12 A lot of them did. I know Katherine Edetos was one of those that had a lot of It almost feels like here, throw this over your shoulder, too, while you're at it. You know what I mean? Like,

42:21 that makes sense. I think um Yeah, I think she I mean they all of them had many layers of clothing

42:27 cuz it's also freezing cuz it was like and they just carried everything on them at all times kind of thing. And they would like, you know, collect things as they went.

42:35 Well, they didn't have a permanent place to stay. So, they just had to sell stuff too. Like if you have a lot of layers, you can sell a layer and get some money.

42:42 Yeah. But yeah, it always seemed to me there was a message there for sure. It was almost like it was definitely taunting.

42:49 Well, I think that that's when for me I started to have that trigger of like the black dollalia

42:55 is the display, right? It's very theatrical, which also happened during Jupiter and Scorpio.

43:02 Really? Yes. Oh, I just got a full w moment. That's That's crazy. What the coincidence? Not only that, but Saturn was in Leo for both of them, too. So, Saturn and Jupiter, which are both considered like the head honchos of astrology, it's like the two daddies. You I say Jupiter is casino daddy.

43:22 It's like you go Yeah. expands. You go into Vegas with him. He's like dripping in gold.

43:30 I love that ladies on either arm. And then I Saturn is the casino owner in the suit walking around capping people out dealing with the mafia with whoever it is teaching a lesson.

43:43 Exactly. Killing people in the back, right? Like so you have sort of the external and the internal parts of this system.

43:50 I love thinking about it like that. That's actually really helpful to learning astrology. It

43:54 really I like that. Yeah. But both of these were in the same placements and what are the odds of that? I mean, there must be a mathematician out there who can quickly generate that for us, but it's very unlikely. It's very rare, right?

44:09 It only happens a few times a century. It feels significant. Yeah, it does. And they're square. Um, that's the aspect they're making. So, Jupiter and Scorpio, as we said, it's like, you know, there's the shame piece, the exposing, the darkness. Saturn and Leo. Leo is the performative, you know, theatrical sort of look at me energy in the spotlight.

44:32 Yeah. To me, at this point, we know that Jack the Ripper wants attention. Oh, yeah.

44:38 That this is not something that he's doing and trying to conceal, right? He's concealing his identity, certainly, but he doesn't want people to catch him in the act. No,

44:48 he has some goals of these encounters. Yeah. He wants to hear about it after he doesn't want to hiding bodies. No,

44:56 he's intestines on display more and more on display as these women are killed. And he's getting bolder and bolder as he goes too.

45:05 Yeah. Yes. Mhm. So, this is an this is an interesting one because this is also the last one that we have with Jupiter in Scorpio. Jupiter is about to switch.

45:28 Okay. Signs. And I think that this and that's my working theory for why things really

45:34 get wild. Oh, okay. Okay. That's interesting. So, next we have Elizabeth Stride. Long Liz. Long Liz.

45:42 Long Liz. They And they they don't know why. Yeah. They don't. Just long Liz. She was tall.

45:49 They also said that she had a long face. Maybe just just something something long.

45:55 The nicknames were wild back then. They were They're They're all like bullies. They were very mean.

46:00 Yeah, they were gross for sure. I don't want to know what my nickname would have been back then. I don't want an 1888 White Chapel nickname.

46:07 I'm sure there's a generator out there somewhere. We know. Go ahead. Wait, there's not. Now there is.

46:12 We do. We need that joke. We do. That's so funny. So, um, Elizabeth was a Sagittarius sun. Um, an Aquarius moon and she had a bunch of planets in Aquarius actually. She had

46:29 fun. She Yes. She was born in She was a Swedish woman. Um, she had Mars in Aquarius. She had Neptune in Aquarius. The moon was in Aquarius. Jupiter was in Aquarius. She had the sun in Sagittarius. She was a talker.

46:46 She was philosophical. She was sort of, you know, she was unconventional. She was weird. She was someone who did things differently, right?

46:55 Um, so it makes sense that she she's one of those that I feel like is in this situation, but is also kind of like,

47:03 where else would I be, you know, like girl? Yeah. Here I have found myself in White Chapel. It is a long way from Kansas, but like

47:12 I'm doing the thing here because she originally in Sweden, I believe, she was the one who registered as a sex worker in Sweden so she could do it legally.

47:20 Oh [ __ ] And she would have to like check in and get checked and stuff. So she did it like

47:24 Yeah. Like this is the job I'm doing. That feels very Aquarius energy like I can do this and like people should be able to do this.

47:30 I'll make it official concerned with like the world at large. So it it does seem like she's just kind of like, "Yeah, this is what I do.

47:36 I'm owning it. Yeah, put me on the list." like I'm going to do this legally. And what I also, you know, going back to that um to the sort of like the communication and the talking and then the silencing thing, like here's another example of

47:51 of another female archetype who has like a very ballsy chart of nature. Yeah. And who is it who stands up for herself and knows how to defend herself and knows how to protect herself. Like sure she is certainly a victim not just of this murder but like of the world and society and the circumstances but she also was tough.

48:14 Yeah. In fact on the on the night she died one of the witnesses heard like one of the witnesses who saw her walking with a man or saw her talking with a man heard this other person say to her, "You would say anything but your prayers."

48:27 And like and she laughed. So I love that. So that's literally her like she just reflected Not to mention she has my mom's birthday. So, November 27th, 1843. My mom's not from 1843.

48:42 You're like, exact date. Exact, time, and location. Yeah. No, but my mom is a November 27 Sagge, so I know the energy. I know the vibe. You know that energy.

48:52 It It is. My grandma used to say that when my mom was a little girl, she would like follow her from room to room talking, like go into the bathroom talking. love. My mom goes, she goes to the basement. Like anywhere my grandma was going, my mom was following talking talking.

49:05 Let me tell you a story. See, so that really fits her. Yeah. You would say anything but your prayers. He's just like, damn, you're just talking about anything and everything.

49:13 Yeah. And she was also when she was found, she had a flower. She had flowers in her hand. She had coins in her hand.

49:21 Yeah. She had a lot of things on her, but she was like in the process. She was like doing things. She was like talking, chatting, doing things. Busy.

49:28 Oh, yeah. She was not just like wandering down the streets. You know, she was in the mix.

49:33 She was in the mix for sure. She And it wasn't even, you know, in for White Chapel. It wasn't even that late.

49:38 No, 1:00 a.m. I think it was she was found. Yeah, I'm pretty sure. Yeah, that's I mean that's just popping up at the beginning of the night. The pregame. That's when she was found. So, this was way before.

49:48 Yeah. So, in this case, she had her throat cut, but no additional mutilation happened.

49:53 I think she it was interrupted, I'm pretty sure. Well, and then you think about the timing. It's like maybe somebody was coming around the corner. You know, it's too early for him to be out doing this

50:02 and he did it in kind of an open space, right? I 100% think that this was interrupted.

50:08 Yeah. Because of what happens with the next one. Y he had a vision. He did. Um and I think he had a story that he wanted to tell with this.

50:18 Oh yeah. And this to me feels sort of like a oh [ __ ] you know, like never I got this didn't work out. This wasn't what I wanted.

50:27 This isn't this isn't the vision I had. I have to keep moving. That's why I think he had a double event next because I think he was wanted to get it done.

50:34 Yes. And this chart is interesting because it's, as I mentioned, it's the first one where Jupiter switches into Sagittarius. Okay. Now, Jupiter is in its doicile in Sagittarius, which means that's where Jupiter loves to be the most.

50:49 Our most recent reference of Jupiter in Sagittarius is when CO started spreading. Oh [ __ ]

50:55 It's I think my Jupiter is in Sagittarius. We'll discuss. Okay. Oh no. Can't wait to get to that.

51:02 It's it's this sort of like it's it's bigger. It's enhancing. It's amplifying. It's taking that energy and at on this day on September 30th, Jupiter was making an exact opposition to Neptune which is locked in with Pluto. It's that Neptune Pluto signature which is in all of these charts you know that was that's a very longlasting signature because those planets move so slowly. So all of these charts all of these death charts have that.

51:33 Okay. And Jupiter, which is the magnifying energy, was magnifying that signature of mystery, of murder, of sort of the intensity and the volume. Like, it literally was turning up the volume on this.

51:50 And I think that, and again, we're back to volume, we're back to speech, we're back to sort of vocalization. I think that Elizabeth's stride was very much sort of I mean they're all very wrong place, wrong time, but this is one where it's like

52:04 maybe we didn't have to have two that night. Yeah. I think that he I think there there could have just been one,

52:09 but we have a a casualty of a casualty. Yeah. Like a missed opportunity in his eyes.

52:14 Yes. Mhm. So yeah, that's that's our scene with with this death chart which is the same death chart because we don't have the exact time to the second or to the fourth victim.

52:26 Okay. Which is Katherine Edos, our girl. Our girl who is of is getting talked about a lot recently.

52:34 Yeah. Supposedly she had a shaw. Supposedly that's her shaw. It wasn't. We don't think so.

52:38 Well, guess who has a Gemini moon? Catherine. Okay. Yeah. So she is part of the signature. She's part of the story that we're telling with the Neptune and the Pluto and Gemini

52:49 because Polly had one too, right? Yes. And that was the death chart, the first chart as a Gemini moon.

52:55 So Katherine also was is a is an Aries. She was born on April 14th, 1842. And she was born under a Pluto sun conjunction. So when she was born, Pluto was in Aries. Her son was in Aries. And we talked about Pluto being death, right? We talked about Pluto being this like mysterious underworld intense force,

53:17 but when I see something like that in a chart, I think that this is a legacy that lives on. To have your son connected with a force like Pluto, of course, you're going to be remembered for how you die. Yeah.

53:30 You know, cuz it's life and death all in one house. Yes. And Aries is a fire sign. We have another firecracker here. We have another feisty

53:41 woman. Not going to put up with your [ __ ] Not going to be silenced unless you do it immediately.

53:45 She also has a temper. Yeah, she does. And the dude, I think she the the guy that she was with at the time or like hanging around with literally told her that night like, "Be careful. Don't become another victim of the White Chapel slasher or whatever they were calling him at that point." And she was like, "Oh, I'm not worried about that." Literally said like, "Fuck that. Not worried about it." Like she was just like, "Nope, don't care."

54:06 That freaks me out. Mhm. Yeah. Because when someone says something like that, you don't want it to be prophetic.

54:11 Yeah. You don't want that to live on. That's the worst prophecy you could give.

54:15 You definitely don't. But yeah, this is this is another strong fiery individual

54:22 who is doing her thing, not taking any [ __ ] knows how to defend herself, knows how to take care of herself.

54:29 Um definitely would know how to stand up for herself. Yeah, that's a trigger for him for sure. The fact that all of the I mean we're on the fourth victim and they all have this in common so far is absolutely a trigger for him.

54:41 Yes. And then this, you know, is is so interesting to me because this is the case where we have her story living on, right? The shawl comes from this.

54:52 Yep. The kidney in what the next sort of incident that we'll talk about is comes from this chronologically. Um, then also this is where there's graffiti on the wall that I think is incredibly compelling.

55:09 And one of our characters, the the captain, Oh, no. Sir Charles Warren. Warren, we're talking about Warren.

55:15 Sir Charles Warren, the head of the London Metropolitan Police, has it scrubbed before any crime scene photos are taken.

55:24 Interesting. So, I don't have that text here, but I maybe you we could also pull it up, but it's anti-Semitic. Surprise.

55:33 Yep. Yep. Surprise. Spoiler alert. Um, but to me, the reason that all of these pieces are so interesting with this person, with this death case, with this death chart, is the legacy bit of it. This is when to me our Jack the Ripper is being like, "Notice me. Right.

55:55 Pay attention to me. Oh yeah. Throat cut, abd abdomen mutilated, left kidney removed.

56:03 Uh parts of the uterus removed. Our first instance of facial mutilation, right?

56:09 And this is someone who's not taking any [ __ ] No. This is also someone who in their chart has that sun Pluto conjunction of I'm going to be remembered for how I die.

56:21 Yeah. and I am going to tell a story that exists long after I am gone. You know what's even weirder is she got arrested that night and when they asked her to write her name down, she wrote nothing.

56:33 Spooky. Isn't that weird? For like somebody who's going to be remembered for how they die, they wrote nothing as their name.

56:40 And just like you're like you're so close to not being nothing but to be being removed from existence physically hate that weird. Yeah, my arms are fully chilling so badly.

56:54 But she's something. She's something. And we're still talking about her and all of I mean so much evidence comes from this particular murder,

57:02 right? Mhm. The alleged murder. But this one, this one's also really intricate, too, like how he removed things. Like he took her kidney and he removed it from the renal capsule, which is like a very thin lining to take. And he did it like very delicately. And again, this is one of those things where she was killed in a place that was darker than dark. Like her particular place that she was killed, I think um was it Miter Square, I believe, or something out in the open.

57:33 She was and she was in an alleyway and it was like dark, dark, dark. And she had just passed a police officer. She said something like like, "Good evening, old cock" or something to him. Like she said something like she's really

57:45 That's my girl. That's my Aries son, Gemini moon girl. And she's just walts past a police officer. And then he does it in an alleyway in the pitch blackness faster than you can imagine. And he's being so delicate to slice through a renal capsule to remove a kidney. Like you have to know about the body.

58:06 You'd have to know that was there. You have to know. You need to be delicate with that.

58:09 You have to. Yeah. And I think she had her uterus move, too. Like there was so many things here that he did so fast.

58:16 Yeah. And it's interesting cuz it was a partial removal. So it's like did he not have time to finish it?

58:21 Yeah. I mean he was doing a lot, you know. Yeah. Yeah. And the facial mutilation,

58:26 you know, also we have images of it. Yeah. Also horrifying. Also jump scares for me in my research.

58:33 Yeah. Um it's hardcore. It is. It is really intense. And you wonder too with that one because again he's like escalating and because the other ones didn't have the extensive facial mutilation. It's like we go here and then to go from here we obviously have somebody in between but to go to Mary Kelly it's like he was on that path on that path of just making them not a person anymore.

58:56 And I think that was like the message here was he was slowly making them not a person. Well, maybe that's really where the intestines thrown over the shoulder comes in with the second woman who was killed. It's like that's where he started. Like you're not a person. It's almost like anim animalistic.

59:12 Yeah, cuz he makes it almost like a like you said like he's making it almost like a part of her clothing, you know, like

59:17 right something str like let's just flip them over her shoulder cuz that's and that's not something human

59:23 and then it just continues to escalate. Yeah. That's why I think there is there is some personal vendetta and connection to sex workers. Yeah, because it's a humiliation. This is making them slowly but surely not recognizable as human beings because that's how he saw them.

59:41 But he just did it slowly as he went. Yes. Which is so [ __ ] up. Yes. And so what do you think about the graffiti that was here?

59:50 That alounded me. I feel like it was unrelated. I remember talking about that and that was our consensus was that it was unrelated.

59:57 And I think that's also part of why Charles Warren got rid of it or ordered it to be washed off cuz I think he knew as well that it was unrelated but that it would be connected because it's also like would he really have had the time to do everything he did to mutilate her and then again in the pitch black write that on the wall.

1:00:13 Yeah. My my initial instinct was that it was unrelated. Mhm. But then the letter comes right after.

1:00:23 So if we think of the letter, if if we do say that that was an authentic communication, which I think it is.

1:00:31 I feel like it the from hell letter. Yeah. I think the from hell letter is my favorite part of this whole story. I'm obsessed with the from hell letter.

1:00:40 I mean it's so spooky girl coded a letter from hell. It's terrifying. It's so terrifying. But the reason that I sort of paused on it because because it's anti-Semitic. It's like like what business like why are we throwing this, you know, subplot into the story.

1:00:56 What does this have to do with this? Exactly. But then to have the letter right after to me there is this piece of communication that's happening. And then going back to the astrology that communication signature, right?

1:01:09 That these women aren't talking, but I have something to say and I want to be heard. I want to be seen, not for you to find out who I am. Or maybe he did.

1:01:20 I mean, he really starts to get pretty dicey, no pun intended, right? And then he reaches out to the media. It's like that. I also wonder if that graffiti was there and he saw it and that sparked an idea that became the place. Like that was like, oh,

1:01:35 let's do it here. Cuz then the communication started. So it's like he almost saw that and was like, wait, I can communicate that. interest like I can communicate not just through this and what I'm doing cuz obviously what I'm doing I'm communicating in some way but people aren't getting it like no one

1:01:52 they're not getting it the writing on the wall so maybe I and he literally is like I'm seeing the writing on the wall maybe I should send a letter maybe I should communicate with words cuz this is here you know

1:02:03 yeah and maybe also cuz obviously he was paying attention to how the investigation was going so he saw that the that that scrubbed off.

1:02:13 So, he's also thinking, "Oh, words matter. Yeah, they have meaning. Take them seriously.

1:02:20 Yeah, these are this is something that I can incorporate into into this storytelling

1:02:25 because that's I mean, he's telling some sicko story here in this and that's what he wants to convey,

1:02:32 right? Mhm. So, yeah, this is this one is really um a notable one because of how much evidence both real and alleged evidence and then also missing evidence is coming out of it.

1:02:45 And then the next thing that I have is the from hell letter. Yep. So that's October 16th, 1888. And this is sent to George L.

1:02:56 Yeah. Cuz he was a Yeah. Lusk. That's what it was. I tr I tragically don't have a birthday for him other than that he was born in 1839 was the year he was born. Um so he is the a builder and a decorator. Could you imagine that existing in White Chapel?

1:03:12 Honestly, I'm like he's a designer in the middle. What's going on? Okay. All right, girl. He's got a dreary vibe.

1:03:20 Yeah. You know, Edward Goryesque. Yeah. um the chairman of but he becomes the chairman of the White Chapel

1:03:29 vigilance vigilance committee committee. So he's like you know what I got to take matters into my own hands.

1:03:34 Neighborhood watch. We love a neighborhood watch. We love it. And he receives this letter this package the parcel if you will.

1:03:43 Yeah. Truly. October 16th 1888 um that has the most iconic haunting letter ever.

1:03:52 Mhm. And also a kidney. And also a kidney. Fantastic. Little piece of a kidney.

1:03:57 Fantastic. That's that right there. I'm like I just I don't see how you can't think that's authentic.

1:04:04 Like Yeah. Well, they also tested the kidney and were able to determine it was human and it was female and it was likely from the left side,

1:04:13 which is Katherine Edo's kidney was on the left, which is crazy that they could do that back then. Like, let's take a second for that.

1:04:19 And I know I'm like, keep going, right? Take a second with more of that. You could find this man. Yeah.

1:04:27 You're doing great work. Let's go. Yeah. So, this letter is is everything to me because it also, you know, it we don't have again the exact time, but it arrived in the afternoon. So, we were able to kind of play with the time a little bit, okay, between 3 and 6 PM.

1:04:50 So, with that in mind, it's very possible that that signature, that Neptune Pluto signature in Gemini could have been like distinctly at one of the big angles of this, right? I have it a little bit after 400 p.m. And that puts it at the what's the point is called the IC, which is the base of your chart, which I literally refer to as your villain origin story.

1:05:14 Oh, damn. And that also would mean that the moon in Pisces is right on the ascendant. Pisces is ruled by Neptune. So, it's creating mystery, right? It's it's continuing this Yes. this dreamy puzzle pieces. And it's also adding to the drama. Something that I always think about and that I think often gets overlooked with Pisces and Neptunian placements is that they have this sort of like glamour and mystique to them. So there was an aestheticism to it. There was a lot of intentionality about the presentation, the parcel, the kidney, the kidney being in in a spirit.

1:05:51 And the fact that he was saying he tried to eat some of it, so he was upping that like

1:05:56 omnasty energy like he was like, "Oh, also I'm a cannibal. Right, right right. And unless you didn't think that I was twisted

1:06:05 or were you scared, I'm also a cannibal. So, it's like he's upping it. Yes. Yeah. So, this also, this chart also puts Mars right at the mid heaven. Mars again being violence,

1:06:18 war, war, knives, you know, aggro things. So, this this from hell letter is is truly from hell. Yeah. It is truly truly from the bowels of hell.

1:06:31 Mars is also like determination, right? So he's determined to make a name for himself when he sends this letter.

1:06:37 Yes. Yes. Yeah. And and it makes sense again with the addition recognize me. Oh, in addition with the with the Hannibalesque like I ate it, you know, with a fine cane,

1:06:48 right? Yes. You know, like that's the the vibe. Like he's getting theatrical. He's

1:06:53 upping his auntie. He's trying to be he's in the aesthetic of it all. He's like,

1:06:59 I'm now a cannibal. It's like he's he's laying that out as like it's he's Oh, and I ate it.

1:07:04 Also, I had a fried it up and ate it. Yeah, I fried it up. It was delicious. It was delicious. Here's the rest.

1:07:10 Yeah. For you. Damn. For you. You try. Why do you think that he sent it to this like citizen, this this vigilante citizen?

1:07:21 I think because the police commissioner just wasn't getting it. And the I mean that's like the whole reason that the vigilante came to be is because the police commissioner wasn't really getting it. So he needed to start figuring this out. And I think whoever Jack the Ripper is recognized that and was like, "Oh, well this guy's going to spread the good word that I'm a cannibal that that I have this kidney that

1:07:42 I'm this like deviant man." You know, I think so, too. Yeah. It's It's so interesting to me, you know, the timing of it, too. It's 2 weeks after the last murder and then we still have a ways to go. You know, it's kind of the halfway point between the two most gruesome and final murders.

1:08:03 So, what was going on? What was he doing? He was writing letters. He was eating kidney. He was doing something with these organs. I think

1:08:10 experiments maybe. I you wonder what he cuz I I also wonder I'm like Elizabeth Stride was supposed to be Katherine Edos. Like

1:08:19 that's clear. Yes. So it's like did he always have five in mind? Was there always this, you know, extra four or was it always supposed to be four? Is there some significance to four instead of five since I don't think he intentionally went for five? I think

1:08:35 maybe that's why five went so off the [ __ ] rails. That's why like I think maybe he initially wanted four and because also that makes kind of the most sense with the way he escalates if you take Elizabeth's stride out of it,

1:08:49 right? It kind of a weird pause. There was an interruption. You didn't get to go. It was a mistake. It was it was an oopsies.

1:08:57 Like the the intestines over the shoulder. Like that's that's escalation. And then you go to Katherine Edos and it's way more escalation. There's the facial mutilation. There's the removal of more organs. There's lacerations everywhere. I believe her um I think her genitals were like severely lacerated. He went like really frenzied in that one and then he goes about a hundred steps higher with Mary Jane Kelly.

1:09:25 Yeah. And it's like I do wonder if it was supposed to be four and that they were looking at the significance of the five and everything but there was always a significance of four maybe.

1:09:34 I wonder if he also and like you know if we were to talk about don't let me talk about ghost because I always end up siding with the ghost. Now, Jack the Ripper is is not a ghost.

1:09:45 Not a ghost. So, I'm not siding with him, but I also am wondering if maybe he really wanted to get caught

1:09:52 before this the final one. Mhm. And he was really also being tortured mentally.

1:09:59 Yeah. Because there's enough of a pause and there's enough of an outreach where he could also be just like losing his damn mind. I mean, clearly this is like a very unwell person. Well, there are so many suspects that did end up going into asylums at the time that everything abruptly stopped. So, I think you could be on to something there.

1:10:20 Valid. Yeah. And it's kind of like it's a cry for help. And he's like, I'm a cannibal, too.

1:10:25 Yeah. I'm really really bad. I really need help. Like, I'm eating these organs. Like, someone

1:10:31 come find me. Yeah. It's like I think there was like uh we did a case of like the lipstick

1:10:35 the lipstick killer. Yeah. And he literally wrote on the wall like, "For the love of God, please find me or I won't stop." And it's and it kind of feels similar in a way.

1:10:45 Yeah. It's like you could go either way with it where like he really went to lengths to not be caught,

1:10:51 but then also that pause and then the frenzy at the end, you're like, "What did happen?"

1:10:57 Well, I feel like there is like such a dichomous nature to whoever this is. Absolutely.

1:11:01 Of it's like I want to get caught. Gemini Gemini signature. I want to get caught. No, I don't. The indecisiveness

1:11:08 Gemini probably so many killers are. They are. We'll see. But so many rappers are too. So good things about podcast. So sorry.

1:11:17 Exactly. I love a Gemini. Who doesn't love a Gemini? Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. It's uh you know, it also then makes me think that it's another point for that he could have done the graffiti though of like maybe if I'm anti-Semitic, they'll pay attention.

1:11:32 Yeah. I'll make myself the worst possib. I don't think he views them as people that it's like

1:11:48 as people that he's like look I'm a bad guy. I think he's like I'm not a bad guy. Like I'm taking out the trash. I think that's literally how he views it as like

1:11:55 but maybe he can't. So like why do you all even care? Maybe he can't decide though. Maybe it's yes, they're trash and yes, I'm disposing of them and I'm a great guy because I'm, you know, taking them off the streets. And then on the flip side of that, maybe he's also like, but I'm a killer and I ate these kidneys and I'm doing all these [ __ ] up things and I can't stop myself.

1:12:14 Yeah. Yeah. That letter definitely feels more just like, look how twisted I am, you know kooky.

1:12:19 Yeah. Like and you wonder if like he started this with that like cuz I there's that personal thing that I feel is there that like somebody in his life made him hate

1:12:30 the mother or the mother role. Yeah. Like somebody in his life like a wife, a girlfriend, a mother, like some woman in his life made him hate like in his mind made him hate these women.

1:12:40 And I wonder if he started with Paulie thinking like this is my like journey I'm going to take. I'm going to get this out. I'm going to I'm going to teach these women a lesson kind of thing. And then he saw and I think to him he was like, well, no one will give a [ __ ] because who gives a [ __ ] about these women in his mind.

1:12:58 And then he saw that people did give a [ __ ] about this and that it was causing such a stir and he slowly started falling into that like wait a second like getting that ego and getting that like

1:13:09 people are scared of me. So then now I'm like was he like he was we know he's a little [ __ ] but it's like was he even more of a little [ __ ] than we thought he was? I mean probably

1:13:17 and he was seeing everybody like suddenly fearing him and being like Jack the Ripper and all of a sudden he's like [ __ ] like I have power I didn't have before and that's why it kept escalating.

1:13:28 Well, and you think about the circumstances of of White Chapel and living there at the time and nobody really had power. Nobody

1:13:33 power was hard word or Exactly. So now he finally has it. Yeah. He's like he's got everybody like

1:13:38 but it's in the shadows which is also then going back to that signature of Neptune and Pluto that we have in all of these murders. It's like Pluto is also power, right? It's it is power.

1:13:50 So, yeah, you have power, but nobody knows who the [ __ ] you are and you're a little [ __ ] So, like

1:13:56 So, do you have power? Like, do you even Nobody even knows who you are and you're attacking people in like the dead of night on on dark street corners

1:14:04 and immediately cutting their throat. Immediately cutting their throat. It's like, so you you're a little [ __ ] at the end of the day, LB. It's true.

1:14:11 Jack the Ripper is a little [ __ ] He is a little [ __ ] You heard it here first.

1:14:14 Yeah. I think it is important to to call it like it is because this, you know, he has become so mythological

1:14:22 and like he's gotten like sexy in Oh, yeah. Cuz like people turn him into this like

1:14:28 it's a superal dark figure that's just like looming around with a cape and a top hat.

1:14:33 There's like sex worker sex energy. I don't think he was rolling around with like a cape and a top hat. Like I don't think because also he would and I think actually I think on the Tobias episode he pointed this out. He would stick out like a sore thumb in white walking around in a [ __ ] cape and a

1:14:50 that's so funny. They'd be like it's probably that weirdo. Yeah. They'd be like it's probably that weird guy over there in the cape like that.

1:14:57 Who could it be? Maybe this rich guy that's walking in here weirdo moved to town.

1:15:01 Yeah. It's like no I think he probably looked like a grubby little loser dirty like just like everyone else there. So, it's like it's so weird how it's become like this sexualized version of him of like look at this like caped figure and it's like

1:15:17 but that's like the Neptune Scorpio like like somebody sent us this from it's like a little uh like the visitors guide that you get on the tour in White Chapel and even there silhouette hot silhouette and it's like that's not what he looked like. I know it.

1:15:34 I know. We will tiny. We will not see a top hat on that man. If he was to materialize in front of us right now,

1:15:42 no top hat to be seen. Yeah. No cape to be seen. Ew. I hope he does not materialize.

1:15:47 I hope either. You know what? Show yourself. Show yourself. Let's go right now. I'll save him later. You want some more outspoken women? We're right here.

1:15:56 We'll outnumber you. It's not cheap. We have New England and we have a Mikey in here. So, we're going to kick your ass.

1:16:08 I got to go home now. I'm Canadian. I'm not ready for this. That's so funny. I love it.

1:16:18 So, nobody um catches him. No. And unfortunately, all this time, this is just a funny one, but there was a saucy Jack

1:16:28 letter. Do you remember the Saucy Jack? Saucy Jack. And that wasn't real, though. It was an interesting one though cuz I think that one mentioned the double event.

1:16:35 So it was so I remember that one I was a little iffy on on the it wasn't released that there was a double event yet

1:16:41 when it was written. So that's an interesting one. But it also could have just been somebody who like lived in that particular area, you know. But yeah,

1:16:50 or one of these like silly police officers who Yeah, let's send a letter to the police. They were kooky police officers.

1:16:56 And there wasn't a lot going on aside from this, which you would think this would be enough, but

1:17:00 yeah, it was just a bunch of needed some entertainment. It was a lot of the same.

1:17:03 A lot of the same misery. Literally same old, same old. Uhhuh. So, Mary Jane Kelly,

1:17:10 she is the youngest of the victims. She's she was 25 when she died. We know her birth year. She was born in 1863.

1:17:19 Her situation is very different than all the others. She is young. She was murdered indoors. She was murdered in her home.

1:17:28 Very upsetting. Um in the room she was renting. Um she also was completely like

1:17:36 eviscerated. I mean she she evaporated. She wasn't even Yeah. There was nothing holding her make out a human form in the crime scene photo.

1:17:46 Yeah. I mean and like pieces of her were placed in different places in the room.

1:17:50 Yeah. Her face was hacked apart. Like her thighs are You can see just bone. Yeah, he like hacked it right to the bone. Like I can't imagine how long this took.

1:18:01 That's over 2 hours. It had to have taken so long. And how did he not calm in the middle of that? You know what I mean? Like how are you for 2 hours? I think almost I think he was frenzied. How do you not lose steam?

1:18:15 See, I think he was frenzied in the beginning and I think because it it takes a lot to cut into a person like it just does. There's a lot there's a different layers of a human being take a lot.

1:18:27 Layers of skin, muscle, bone, you know, and I think he was frenzied. And I think he was frenzied when he went at her face. I think he was frenzied when he went like at the when he was hacking away and when he killed her. And then I think he had a moment of like stopping for a second, breathing, and then meticulously cutting off her breasts, chopping away at her thighs. Like I think he took a breath and then got meticulous about it.

1:18:54 It's also possible um that he thought he was going to get found. Yeah. In this process,

1:19:00 so he was just doing the most he could. He was literally buying time being like, "Well, I guess I'll just keep going because no one's coming yet." Right.

1:19:07 Yeah. I I wasn't considering that um in the prep in preparing these charts, but as we've talked about it, you know, like I think that it taking this long of time and you could argue well he was indoors so like he had the luxury of time.

1:19:23 Yeah. But there was still like coming and going and this was also happening like you know in the early hours. So there was some movement.

1:19:32 People are going to leave for work and get out to do this. This was happening at like, you know, 5:00 a.m.

1:19:38 Yeah. Sun was starting to come up. You know, it's not the middle of winter yet, right? We still have a sun that rises pretty early. Yeah. Right.

1:19:48 That's true. Yeah. He also I think he I I'm pretty sure there was like a fireplace in the room and I think he like made the fire like blazing too. Like the fire was blazing. So it's like come look in here. So, I almost think he was drawing attention to it, which he could that could be drawing attention to him while he's in there or drawing attention to the scene after the fact. One of the last things he did,

1:20:10 but it's definitely drawing attention cuz that was a blazing fire. Yes. That she definitely didn't set.

1:20:16 So, this is this is the chart where this is the only murder that takes place during Scorpio season.

1:20:21 And Scorpio season is is that veil between worlds season. Um, Halloween occurs during Scorpio season. It's end of October into November. Um, and we've talked about Scorpio energy represented in the other planets, but it's, you know, it's that life and death and power and intensity. So, this Scorpio season sort of backdrop here, I think, gives it this really eerie, dark psychological tone. We also have um the sun in the same place where Jupiter and Mars were when this whole thing started. So there is this sort of like this book. Yeah.

1:21:03 This this conclusion that's happening here too. And I wrote a note. I'm seeing crazy Jupiter. So Jupiter now is, you know, it's at 10° of Sagittarius. And we talked about this sort of, you know, this amplification and this magnification. And I think that that that growth and that dynamism that was happening here in terms of the way that he was doing and the extent of the violence was also him getting crazier. I mean obviously but the reason that I bring that up is because

1:21:34 something is changing in him too. You know what I mean? It's not just like oh I'm learning how to do this and I like what I'm doing so let me like up the ante for the next one. It's also like he is absolutely unraveling.

1:21:49 Yeah. Like where do you go from here? Well, and also Sagittarius is known to like have a sense of escapism, right? And then Jupiter is going to expand that. So maybe he's trying to escape from himself and that's why he wants to get caught here.

1:22:00 He wants to get caught. He 100% I need to get out of his time here. He was not frenzied through this whole thing because he placed like organs under her head.

1:22:11 He like placed some under her legs. So like he was he's just going nuts that scene like he was

1:22:17 and like with this one too which is interesting he took her heart like just her heart

1:22:24 took it found it took it from the scene they never found her heart and for her for the organ to be the heart that he takes this time

1:22:32 that's so significant like that's there's significance what do you think about that

1:22:37 well it's interesting I mean in medical astrology the heart is associated with Leo Um Saturn is in Leo in this chart in all of these. We had Saturn in Leo and there is this very much of you know this energy of ego and sort of making your mark. I mean I think it's very performative. I think it's very much about sort of like and now I take your heart and this is your life force and like this is the testament of like

1:23:08 taking something from you that is like also symbolic of love and symbolic of affection and connection but it's like

1:23:14 I'm taking everything away from you. Yes. Take it to take your heart is to take your ability to be alive.

1:23:20 Yeah. Your vitality makes you everything. Yes. To take what makes you human. And this I suppose could go because I'm thinking about it and I'm like okay if this is like a medical person

1:23:33 which is which I believe it is but I wonder too like at that time what they considered the like the

1:23:41 humanity of you your brain or your heart. Yes. And to me it feels like maybe like I think now they look at it more like your brain is probably what makes you human. When you're brain dead nothing else can really happen. But back then, I wonder if it was a little more like romanticized where it's like the heart is the thing that makes you human. And like in the beginning, we were saying how like he looks at these women, I think, as subterranean and not human. And I think he was making sure that everyone else saw them that way. This is his like magnumopus of like, see, she doesn't even have a heart. She's not even a human.

1:24:16 Like that's what makes you love. That's what makes you kind. That's what makes you a good person. And I took it. She doesn't even have that. Yeah. Like if she's not worth loving, she's not worth remembering in in his mind.

1:24:29 Yeah. It's also very much sort of like I am in charge of you. I own you. I I have this now and I always will.

1:24:35 Yeah. And I wonder if it's like that. And that makes me think too that whoever it was that he was thinking of when he killed these women was in his mind cruel and unloving. which could be a mother, could be a wife, could be a I mean,

1:24:50 it could be a sister. It could be anybody that he saw as this person that was close to

1:24:53 it was a prominent female for sure. For sure. Yeah, I think I think you're definitely on to something with that.

1:24:59 Uh, the moon was also in Capricorn on this on this night. November 9th, 1988. Way harsh. Well, moon in Capricorn and you know I don't want to this for anyone who has a moon in Capricorn who's listening. You are not Jack the Ripper. So don't don't personalize this. This is about him

1:25:19 not you. But the moon is considered to be in a very compromised place in Capricorn. Um, Capricorn, you know, the moon represents the mother,

1:25:30 and the moon is is how we take care of ourselves, how we're taken care of. It's in its doicile. It's in its home base in the sign of cancer. It's very nurturing, loving, maternal, supportive. Capricorn, it's opposite sign, which was also connected to the south node of past lives. So, another indication that this is something historic that he's replaying here. But the moon in Capricorn is like mommy issues 101. Oh. Because that's like this man has mommy issues. He absolutely does.

1:26:00 That's like your mom being your biggest critic. Yes. Yeah. Damn. Yeah. And of course, you know, we still have uh and also you being heartless

1:26:11 literally to about your mom because Capricorn is ruled by Saturn and it is um it it's

1:26:20 it does not have time for emotions. It does not want to be sweet and tender. Mhm.

1:26:26 It wants to It's rules. It's rigid and firm. It does not. Yeah. It's by the book.

1:26:32 It's by the book. So, which is also like maybe that's why his like mom probably was somebody who was against sex work. It was wrong. It was against the book like in in her mind

1:26:42 and maybe that's why he felt I think it could be that or it could be I mean in astrology in all spirituality opposites are the same. You know to be so against sex work is to be a sex worker, right? It's like it it ultimately like sort of It's tale, right?

1:26:57 And I think that a moon in Capricorn, you know, if we were to do the sort of psychological analysis of it, it's it's feeling like you weren't loved.

1:27:07 So to me, this would indicate more of maybe a mother who was out, you know, using her body with a lot of men doing something that, you know, was neglectful to her children to this. It does feel that way

1:27:25 like just not connected and I'm saying using her body kind of almost in a channeling sort of way of as I'm thinking of how he would be perceiving it. Yeah.

1:27:34 Right. So then to mutilate these bodies and to rip them apart and to take apart the bodies of value that you have. It's like I I'm deconstructing this. Who is my mother?

1:27:46 Yeah. Who is the body of my mother? Yeah. I I 100% think that that is what it is that his mother was likely a sex worker

1:27:57 and was not around or something of that cuz I mean you look at a lot of unfortunately the canonical five especially or any of the ones that aren't the canonical five but have been mentioned in the White Chapel murder file they have a sim like there's a sad path of like sounds a lot of them will have kids and they'll do their best to try to be But then they end up on the streets again and having to do this and they end up like not seeing their kids or they do see their kids and they have these like strange relationships but they're always trying to get back to that like mother role of like being there

1:28:33 and it's just not attainable. So it is a thing that happened so often there and so often in white chapel in that time period

1:28:40 and so much so that it be rooted in the history of it. Yeah. Wouldn't be shocking that this could be a younger guy like in his 20s, you know, who had a mother or has a mother who was going through a similar thing

1:28:54 and could still be on the streets right now doing that. Like, who knows? And we haven't brought up the fact that all of these women are also alcoholics, you know,

1:29:03 all of them. And they all have nicknames like associated with their alcoholism sometimes. Even on the nights of their death, you know, many of them are drunk. Many of them were seen drunk or in jail because they were drunk that night.

1:29:16 In in this time and in this place, it's like those lifestyles coexist, right? It's it's difficult to get out of the situation when you also are struggling with addiction

1:29:27 and then you also have to sort of work in a field that allows you to have and enables your addiction and you know to addiction, right? An addiction is going to make you very very difficult for you to be a good mom. It's very hard to be present for your kid. And I'm sure that it's even worse than that. I'm sure that this Jack the Ripper was also probably like sexually abused and could have been sexually abused by his mother, you know. I'm sure it's the darkest and most horrific version of the story because these are the darkest and most horrific ways of

1:30:00 expressing that, you know, and processing that pain. And wasn't the I I think the kidney the from hell kidney

1:30:08 was in some sort of Yeah, it was in it was in a spirit. So it's like was was that

1:30:14 that's true. I mean that's also preserving and you'll always be part of this like alcohol is part of this whole thing.

1:30:21 Yeah. Yeah. Alcohol has to be part of it. Yeah. It really does. I think we're solving it guys.

1:30:27 We are. We're in process. We're figuring this out. So that's our that's that's our last Spitfire lady.

1:30:34 Yes. Um of which they were all we remember them all. We have names for them all which is pretty interesting and

1:30:41 you know cool I guess astrology of it. It is. Yeah. And the astrology just makes so much sense. It really does. And it's it really is that whole like there are no coincidences. The odds of most of this stuff is astronomical.

1:30:56 Mhm. So then we get into um our funny cast of characters. Yeah. Right. Um we have Sir Charles Warren.

1:31:17 Sir Charles Warren, the head of the London Metropolitan Police, came in in that role in 1886. left in 1888.

1:31:29 Yeah. Not long. Not long. Um, so he was a an Aquarius sun and an Aries moon. And the first thing that I jotted down when I was looking at his chart was that, oh, he hates being told what to do.

1:31:48 Yeah. Oh, yeah. and he has a temper and he looks out for himself and he is not an easy person to collaborate with.

1:31:57 Yeah. And you know we have some other placements as well that are interesting here. He was he has a Saturn in um Sagittarius. He has his Jupiter in Scorpio which means his Jupiter return was happening during this time. so much Scorpio energy in this and like coinciding with Jupiter.

1:32:20 Um he also the first murder which is sort of you know the birth chart of these murders coincided with his south node of fate and destiny. So there was this between having a Jupiter return in Scorpio which is um you know it happens every 12 years and it's supposed to be a very auspicious time. we typically consider at this time of like luck and abundance and good things coming in.

1:32:47 There were a lot of things that were happening all at the same time. Bloody Sunday happened just a year before November 13th, 1887, which you know, he was sort of the he called for that police brutality that was taking place then.

1:33:03 So, he had previously been thought of as this sort of like more progressive guy.

1:33:08 Um, he was an archaeologist. He was science. He was Yeah. And then suddenly he becomes this like tough guy,

1:33:17 like military guy. Yeah. And and that's not like what his skills were right? That's not what he was good at. So it's almost like and this happens in astrology. It's like if you're going down the wrong path,

1:33:29 the universe is going to like push you back on the other. He ended up going back into more academic work.

1:33:35 Yeah. And into better suited better suited for him. Yeah. So, I thought that that was so interesting because he was, you know, he's someone who was kind of like he wasn't in he wasn't doing the right kind of work for

1:33:50 being this Aquarius son of like, huh, let's go and explore Palestine and think about like these different regions of the world. The first picture that you see when you Google him is like him,

1:34:02 you know, in some exotic location. It's true, right? With like the colonial hold apparel on. And that's honestly the vibe that he gives anyways. When you look at a picture of him, you're like, "What are you doing?

1:34:13 What are you doing here?" He got a big old mustache. What are you doing? Yeah. Come on.

1:34:18 Yes. Yes. He'll dig up some stuff. Yes. And not this cuz you're not. I mean, it's right the [clears throat] him having that graffiti cleaned off before they could even come and take a picture of it. Right there.

1:34:33 He was like, "Aw, come on. This is like that. Come on. Yeah. You got to keep You got to take a picture of it, my guy. Like, he messed that up.

1:34:42 That's not how a crime scene works. And he didn't even realize that that was going to make him look bad, too. Like, he wasn't even thinking that way cuz he's just not good at it.

1:34:49 Yeah. This was not his skill set. No. So, he resigned um literally on the day of the last murder.

1:34:57 Yep. Wow. Which is another tank, another There are no coincidences. Very interesting.

1:35:03 Yeah. But, you know, with having the head of the police department resigning at this time, I think it also speaks to just like the chaos and the kookiness of the investigation at this time

1:35:14 because he's just like, you know what? It's like you're all the way into anymore. We're so deep,

1:35:19 right? And now somebody else just has to take this on from from this. Yeah. And that also it's like the looking out for yourself thing like my guy like you're really in the thick of like something horrible happening in this community and you you're like you know what I don't want the criticism.

1:35:36 He's like you know what I can't take it. I've had this I've had enough. It's every man for himself.

1:35:40 Every man for himself. That's enough bossing me around. I don't like it. Do it yourself. Figure it out.

1:35:47 I'm going back to digging up bones. Yeah. He said no. I don't want to deal with this anymore.

1:35:51 Yeah. and and ultimately like better for him. But it's interesting that that was his Jupiter return. You know, his Jupiter return was like, I'm in the wrong place. I'm in the wrong field.

1:36:02 And for us, that kind of like sucks. Thanks a lot. Yeah. Because his self-actualization journey means that we don't know who Jack the Ripper is. And probably if we had somebody who was like a little more locked in like some of these some of the people who came in later on,

1:36:17 a little more destined to do this. Exactly. A little more of your passion. Right. right?

1:36:22 A little more of your mission, your dharma, if you will, right? What you're good at, go with your skill set.

1:36:27 And then we have Donald Swanson. Mhm. So, he was in charge of overseeing the Jack Ripper murders. Um, him and Robert Anderson, who is like probably the funniest character here.

1:36:42 Out to lunch. Literally. He was in Switzerland for most of the murders. Yeah. And then he vacation. And then he was like, I have one more family vacation. I have a little more PTO.

1:36:52 I was just gonna say you'll be utilizing that. He was like they said if I don't use it I lose it. So I'm I'm gonna go I'll be in the end of the year. I'll be right back. Like damn.

1:37:03 So the two of them together um I sort of see them like and they work together. They were sort of passing the torch back and forth when when Robert Anderson was out, you know, when he was out of office on,

1:37:15 right? Donald Swanson was coming in. So, Donald Swanson, a Leo sun, a Capricorn moon. So, Robert Anderson, a Gemini sun and a Virgo moon.

1:37:28 We've seen that. So, it's that reverse of something that we've already started to see twice. Yes. Gemini and Virgo.

1:37:36 So, what's kind of interesting because I was musing on this one in particular where I was like, okay, well, we know that this is these are important placements for the murders chart, right? the chart of the murder. Um, Polly Nichols chart, she was the reverse of it. So, what does it mean? He also had Neptune and Pluto directly on his son. So, that signature that we're tracking through all of this, like he was being activated. I'm like, is he the murderer?

1:38:05 God, that's why he keeps dipping to Sweden. Yeah. But he does something interesting in the case which is that he obviously he and Swanson feel ashame for not finding him. So they are the ones who bring in Aaron.

1:38:21 Yeah. They're the ones who start talking about Polish Jews. Well, it must be. Yeah.

1:38:26 Yeah. And that whole narrative really begins under their watch. Y and to me you know when we go back to the story of communication and storytelling which is the signature of this chart and this whole narrative it's like this is how you tell a story right you find a scapegoat

1:38:46 also and this is not to say that you know I I don't want to completely rule out Aaron Kaminsky is that his name

1:38:57 um because there's some really interesting things we have to look at in history

1:39:00 there is for sure and some really like like you're we're our heads are going to explode when we see his chart.

1:39:06 Oh, I bet. I'm scared. Um, and the relationship between Robert Anderson's chart and his chart.

1:39:14 So, a little spoiler, a little tease, if you will, of what could come. But he establishes him and then Swanson doubles down on it and writes in like the margins of like it was him

1:39:27 like like his deathbed like right like he did it he did it and I think it's is it Swanson? Swanson took [clears throat] really like detailed intricate like research notes on this case like

1:39:43 he is a and he is a moon in Capricorn. Oh so he is ridiculous. So that's why a Leo sun Capricorn moon. He was kind of destined for his role

1:39:53 in this all. Yes. He was very serious. He was very serious about his work, his job. He was very serious about picking up the slack, I think, for Robert Anderson.

1:40:03 Um but ultimately was there were details that he got twisted at the end. Yeah. He was story.

1:40:13 Well, he was also the person who I wrote it here in my notes. He believed it to be Cosminsky, but the death details that he has around him don't add up.

1:40:24 He's when he says that it's Cosminsky, he already and he's like, "But Cosminsky died a long time ago." He h he hadn't died yet.

1:40:34 Yeah. So he was conflating him with So he was conflating him with another Polish Jew in the area whose name was Aaron David Cohen potentially. But then Cohen was sort of the anglicized version of a more Polish name.

1:40:48 And at some point their files were actually become one. Yes. Exactly. When Aaron's colli more Gemini energy Gemini is the twins, right?

1:41:00 So there was this sort of like conflating and he's we're we're looking to these two people to sort of be like, well, you have all these notes.

1:41:08 What do you think, guys? Like what's your findings? and they can't even get the names right for these people.

1:41:14 And to me then this also goes back to the undercurrent of and the sort of subplot of the anti-semitism in White Chapel.

1:41:23 And this makes that graffiti to me really important as a detail of just even time and place.

1:41:29 Oh, for sure. Where we have anti-semitism here in this community and it's building and we also we all know where things go in Europe not very long after this, right? So it's an important

1:41:41 the direction things are moving in and then we have a unsolved case and we have

1:41:48 these immigrants in the community who are also going into a sane asylums maybe for good reasons maybe for medium reasons but whatever it is it's very easy to be like

1:41:59 it was them and they're dead and locked up so don't worry it's done talking about it nobody has to talk about it anymore you can all sleep soundly

1:42:08 and that happens now I mean happens now where police will rush and it happens less luckily now, but like these big cases will happen and they'll rush to pin it on someone. West Memphis 3 is a key one.

1:42:21 Yeah. Where he said himself for those, "Oh my god, we should do those stars for sure." Where it was like three eight-year-olds who got murdered. So, of course, the community is up in arms, wants this solved, wants to find out who did it. They found the first three kids they could pin it on and we're like, "So, it's fine. They did it. Don't worry, there's another weirdo.

1:42:41 Is this the Is this the Damian Eckles? Yes, that story is crazy. And the the police chief, they they asked him, he had zero evidence to arrest them. And he they also had a press conference.

1:42:52 Yeah. The satanic and lies and like false testimony. They literally asked him on a scale of 0 to 10, how tight is your case? And he said 11.

1:43:00 And it's like a shred of evidence against these kids. No physical evidence whatsoever. Sometimes police departments feel like they need to put out that like we are so confident about this so everyone else should be.

1:43:13 And it's it's so stop talking about it. Yeah. In fact, we did this. We shouldn't have any more questions.

1:43:17 Richard Spec, we just we just covered that case. They had nothing. They had no leads. Absolutely not a shred of evidence. But they came out to the people in the press and said, "We're super confident that we we have we have so many leads. Leads up the butt. We are we know what we're doing because it's embarrassing for the police. You know, there's a lot of it's your job. It's your job.

1:43:39 Yeah. It's your job. You have and and the public can build to a crescendo of there's not a lot of understanding. There's not a lot of room for that. So, I think that was part of this is they were like,

1:43:50 "It's fine. He's in an asylum. He's who you thought he was. He's an immigrant. Didn't we all know that?" Like that kind of thing. So, it just pleases everybody. Like, shut up. It's fine. We did our job. We figured out who the bad guy was. Like the end.

1:44:04 Yeah. So maybe let's look at at Aaron's chart. We need I'm so excited. Let's have our brain rocked.

1:44:12 Especially because Aaron is a Virgo sun, Gemini moon. And that is what Polly was.

1:44:21 Whoa. And where everything the sun and moon were at the first murder. Whoa. That

1:44:34 hello. Wow. Hello. Wow. That's damn [ __ ] wild. Damn. Okay, tell us more. What else could I say? I mean,

1:44:44 that's it. You're like, that's it. He's closed. You don't need the mito. No, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. Um, so you know, it's interesting because obviously he has a very important he was born September 11th, maybe a tank, I don't know. September 11th, 1865. Um, in somewhere I can't pronounce Poland.

1:45:06 Clawa, Poland. There you go. Bear with me. Um, and he I I wrote it basically I just wrote all over this has the same sun and moon as Molly Nichols and the same sun and moon as the birth chart for her death and for the first murder.

1:45:22 That's so weird. So what? Yeah. Like what does that mean? What does it mean again? That's crazy coincidental. He also had Jupiter in Sagittarius. And Jupiter at the last murder when we said that Jupiter in Sagittarius was that big crazy energy. It was exact

1:45:42 to his the exact degree. Exact degree. Damn. And there's 30 degrees in each. Yeah. 0 to 29.

1:45:51 That That's weird. I'm just like that. That's weird. And not only that, but remember a Gemini moon and especially his is at 8°. It was exactly conjunct the Neptune Pluto signature.

1:46:05 Y that is this distinctive signature of these. So he is fully like it's like yeah those puzzle pieces that just Yeah. He just locks in.

1:46:14 He locks in. Um, and the person who the ripper Aaron the person who Aaron I know I the person who accused him Anderson right

1:46:26 Anderson was the one who first I think came up with it and then Swanson kind of outed him for

1:46:31 Yeah. Swanson wrote it in the margins. Yeah. He was like it was him. He's like hell yeah.

1:46:34 Yeah. Cuz brother. So he remember he is the reverse of that, right? So he also it's like there are these mirror images. So they're sort of circling each other

1:46:46 like so entwined in this. So entwined. That's pretty wild. So it's really interesting to me because so he's a very easy scapegoat, right? Let's let's hold the chart shows up as something significant that we can't ignore and then also recognize that he was nonviolent. He matches the description of somebody who could do this because he was a mentally ill local man, but he did not have a history of any, you know, he does not have a history of violence towards women. He doesn't have a history of violence in general. Um, he

1:47:24 was very frail. One of the issues that one of his mental illness expressions was he refused to eat.

1:47:32 So, there's reports of him weighing like 98 lbs. Yeah. He's not going to be frenzied for two hours in a room.

1:47:38 He couldn't do it. There's no way. And he was I think he was a barber at one point, which back then barbers did have anatomical knowledge. But

1:47:45 to that degree though, to that degree and when you add the frail frailty in it,

1:47:49 he also I Well, here's another piece of the communication is that he basically only spoke Yiddish.

1:47:56 Oh. He did not speak English. So he would not be able to write letters. Yeah. And

1:48:02 or the communication from them these ladies to go into dark alleys with him, right? That's true.

1:48:08 But that's another communication narrative of this story, which is Gemini. Yes.

1:48:14 So, it's interesting because we have this person who, you know, is kind of a a perfect storm for someone that we can pin it on, right? But then we also have this shawl that keeps coming back. Like the New York Times article about astrology not being real keeps coming back. this shawl and this evidence which I know we we put your insert in here already.

1:48:38 Yeah. But the fact that like this we can't seem to divorce we can't get away from it

1:48:46 this suspect from the from this murder and but my in my heart like it's not him.

1:48:53 Yeah. It just doesn't make sense. I think it's because he's the one I think Swanson putting that little footnote in there and it being such like a weird little like it was him,

1:49:03 right? I think that was the thing that just like you can like hang a hat on that really easily. You know what I mean? Cuz that's the one that like

1:49:12 endorses as the name. Yeah. But the fact that it was conflated with another name, first of all, they didn't even know who they were talking about there. So, we don't even know if he meant this Cosminsky.

1:49:22 He could have meant the other guy in town. and they were like really old and like writing memoirs and they were like, "Oh, we'll give you the the big the big ending by the book."

1:49:31 There's a couple errands in there. Why not? Well, maybe the whole him fitting so perfectly into the puzzle piece is just you're going to be a part of this forever. Even if you're not the

1:49:43 person who is going to be associated, that is your destiny. Yeah. Part of it. Your destiny is to be another piece of the story. Yeah,

1:49:52 he is part of the story whether or not he is Jack the Ripper. Exactly. And I think that when we look at him in this story and him and Paulie Nichols, you know, having the same sun and moon,

1:50:08 the the the the suspect, the alleged murderer and the first victim, and then the sun and the moon being in those same points on the first murder, it's like, of course, he would get swept up in the energy of this. Yeah, he's part of the energy right?

1:50:23 Yes, he is. Whether he wants and he's also part of the zeitgeist of that moment,

1:50:27 right? Mhm. And him having a Jupiter return um at the, you know, at the moment of this final most brutal and horrific murder. Is that a tank? You know, is there no coincidences about that? And then suddenly it's like, well, we're going to direct the attention over here. But also in his life, he was falling apart, too. Yeah.

1:50:49 Right. In his own a different potentially separate life. His mental illness was getting worse. He wasn't eating. He had to move back in with his family. Yeah.

1:50:59 He was put in an asylum. Mhm. So, it's to me it's just it's like sliding doors, you know.

1:51:06 He was put into an asylum in 1891. Um, and he was listed as a suspect in 1894. So, he wasn't even initially listed as a suspect. So to me what I think is also interesting it's like these years go by. We have you know five plus years now and we have

1:51:28 a person and I don't think that they had an astrologer working with them at this time. They probably should have.

1:51:35 But they have a person who is the chart for the murder. So it's like well here it is.

1:51:41 Yeah. Throw it all on him. This is this is the same. And again, it's so easy to do with someone who's been put in an asylum to just be like, "Well, he did it.

1:51:48 Yes, that's why it stopped and it's over." And everyone, you can go back to your normal lives.

1:51:55 And it seemed and it's like that narrative fits to a degree where you're just like, well, of course, nothing else happened after this. He's in an asylum. It stopped. But it's like, babe, I don't think he would have kept going anyway. I don't think he needed the finale. That was the crescendo. That was the apex. That was the finale. that was Elfine and he was going to be done with it.

1:52:15 Yeah. It's like so I don't think the people will say like that's well obviously he was in an asylum that's why he couldn't do anything else and it's like he wasn't going to

1:52:22 No, that wasn't the plan. Like that was it. He he had done his master plan. Who knows if he started a whole different series of something

1:52:29 somewhere else later or if that was it, right? And he either killed himself, he got caught doing something else like whatever. But I don't think he was going to keep going the same way.

1:52:38 Well, he also didn't get put into an asylum for another three years. Yeah. So, so it didn't stop him because he he was doing these quick succession

1:52:46 and he would have had to have been completely mad at that point at the end of the Mary Jane Kelly murder. So, it wouldn't have taken 3 years for him to end up

1:52:54 I think that it could have been someone who had a similar profile to him. You know, it could have been another local lunatic obviously, but like it's not

1:53:04 I don't think that it's based on even just the physical description and what the manifestations of his mental illness were. I don't think it could have physically been him. You need to

1:53:14 have the strength, stamina to do this, all of the above. And again, the knowledge, the patience, a steady hand. Yeah.

1:53:22 They had all these things. Yeah. But now my favorite um person on the case comes in. So my favorite is Aberlene.

1:53:32 Yes. Do you like Aberene, too? I do. I love I remember we talked a whole bunch about him.

1:53:37 Yeah. So Aberlin comes in and is like, "Step aside. I got this. I got this." Hell yeah.

1:53:43 So, um, you know why you love Aberly? He's a Capricorn. Of course he's got this.

1:53:49 And of course he says, "Step aside." He said, "Shut the hell up, everybody. Solo investigation now."

1:53:54 So, he's a Capricorn. Solo investigation. He's a Capricorn son and he's an Aries moon.

1:54:02 Oh, but this rocked me. So his moon and Pluto which you know we've talked about Pluto are conjunct in his chart. So moon in Aries Pluto and Aries in his chart and when I was jotting down you know when I was just sort of musing on this I wrote very strong connection to women

1:54:22 and he it this energy could almost express itself as wanting to be like an Avenger for women. And then as I was, you know, pulling up his bio and understanding his role, I found that he was raised by a single mom.

1:54:36 Yep. Wow. Yeah. And I remember talking about that. I got goosebumps because I was like, "Oh my gosh, he understood the humanity of this case

1:54:44 in a way that some of these other guys just like they were thinking about their own ego. They were thinking about their

1:54:52 vacation days. They were just not locked in. They weren't locked in. But he was locked in." And something that also was an interesting testament to that was the fact that he would patrol the streets himself and also with his, you know, with other police officers that he would sort of put in charge of that. And they would give women money to go into shelters for the night and to have beds so that while they didn't know what was going on that they could be safe in the middle of the night. So he was like actively trying to protect

1:55:25 an avenger for women like literally. Yeah. So, if I were to like cast this, we would make this sort of the uh the hero sort of mirror image to the Jack the Ripper who hates women, right? Who is the antithesis of that,

1:55:41 who hates women. So, it's to me like seeing that moon Pluto in Aries signature and then uh he also has the sun conjunct Saturn both in Capricorn in his chart. Very serious, very committed. Also, you know, if I were to see this in a chart of just anybody now, I would say like, oh, you were the you had to be the parent of your household. You know, you were probably very you had to grow up really fast and take on a lot of responsibilities. That obviously checks out for his upbringing. You know, his dad died when he was young

1:56:11 and his he was raised by his single mom, right? So, he had to figure out how to take matters into his own hands,

1:56:18 take on his father's role, take on the father's role. and he kind of, you know, in this story of all of these different inspectors sort of became the only one who who really I feel like was sensitive to the conditions and he believed that George Chapman

1:56:34 was Jack the Ripper. Okay. And George Chapman, who we have his chart, okay, who is a serial who is a serial killer,

1:56:45 hates women. Ding, ding, ding. Boom. And like you said, that was his finale, but maybe he started doing stuff else.

1:56:52 He could have done something else. That was because I don't think after that you're going to stop killing entirely. Like you clearly have fun with that, you know?

1:57:00 There's definitely something something there. But yeah, I think I think he maybe switched to a different place or he switched to a different method [clears throat] mo,

1:57:10 you know. So, George Chapman um who was who was executed for the murders that he ended up being convicted for

1:57:19 um which was three women who were his mistresses and he basically you know he would poison them to death.

1:57:26 Yeah. Um but he was also very very violent and he was very physically abusive to all of the women but he was a womanizer. He had lots of relationships and women around him and he was jumping from one marriage to the next and making women call themselves his wife and then he was bringing other women home and it's like basically he was trying to have a herum right um

1:57:45 and he was a serial killer right so he was born on December 14th 1865 making him a Sagittarius and also meaning that he was connected to as well that Jupiter and Sagittarius energy that we saw building right? That crescendo of energy. This his sun in Sagittarius is going to be amplified by Jupiter and Sagittarius is the opposite of Gemini and we had that Neptune Pluto Gemini signature. So, he's also directly locked in too. So, to me, I think that he fits in

1:58:21 to this puzzle as well. Yeah, definitely. And he has a moon in Scorpio and a Saturn conjunction to his moon in Scorpio. My note here is he hates women because just in the way that we talked about the moon in Capricorn being really harsh and sort of like having no emotions. The moon in Scorpio is also it's considered to be in its fall in this placement. It is like a dark energy. Uh yeah, there's shame, there's weird sex stuff, there's weird power stuff, there's weird probably Edipus things of wanting to have sex with your own mother things, you know, like there's very a very dark and complicated relationship with women to any of our moon and Scorpio people listening. I'm not talking about you. I'm talking about a serial killer,

1:59:12 right? Um perfect set of circumstances. Also, not to mention that there's a meme that lists the the astrological signs of like all of the most iconic serial killers and they're all mutable signs.

1:59:26 They're all viros, Gemini, Sagittarius or Pisces. Oh, damn. Because you have to have that sort of like changeability,

1:59:32 duality. Yes. Of course, we also have Aaron who is a Virgo son. So, he would also fit that bill as well, even though he's not the killer. It's interesting because like one of the things that I that I remember being like against him that people were like no it's not him is they were like he's not going to do these brutal eviscerations and then switch to poisoning his wives like those are two different MOS and it's like maybe he is or because he was done here.

1:59:57 Well and also or he looked at those other the canonical five those aren't his wives.

2:00:02 Those aren't his wives. That's what I was think those are sex workers so he's going to rip them apart and make them not human anymore. his wives. He treats them horribly, but they get a step up and they get associated with him.

2:00:15 They get the more like, you know, higher class way of dying. And he also gets to watch them die slowly.

2:00:21 Yes. And even more to your point, there are the sex workers who he just totally brutalizes. There are the mistresses that he poisons and brutalizes. And then there are his wives that he just

2:00:35 physically abuses. So there's there is a hierarchy. There is a hierarchy. He is literally how he kills these people.

2:00:43 Which even like lends itself too to the the fact that he went into this with a plan and that's why maybe there really was just supposed to be four and he's methodical in the way that he planned this whole thing out.

2:00:53 Yeah. I can't believe he went in thinking he was going to get four. It's almost like different projects for him.

2:00:59 Mhm. Yeah. And I think that once I mean where do you go after that last murder? Yeah,

2:01:06 that's the thing. You're not just going to go do that again. And there is sort of there is the same sort of like precise sort of um you know he's dosing them.

2:01:18 There is this obsession with detail and the anatomy in the body. There's a clinical nature to it.

2:01:26 He was a barber. I think at one point I think he was also a barber which back then barbers did have anatomical knowledge. That was a

2:01:34 Yeah. It It's like barber surgeon. Yeah. Literally like a barber surgeon. Barber surgeon.

2:01:39 Like the barber pole. That's like the red pole and white pole. The red is because they used to hang bloody rags outside and it looked like that pole. So that's a repres of that.

2:01:51 Yeah. Like it was like an artery in a vein, I think, is also what Exactly. Cuz it's like blue and red. Yeah, that makes perfect sense.

2:01:58 Yeah. So, so I mean, maybe maybe I would say that of all of these suspects, the strongest.

2:02:06 Yes. And also because we have Aberlene, Frederick Aberlin, who is like the women avenger. And he's the one who says, "I know someone who hates women."

2:02:17 Yeah. And I know someone like as someone who loves women, I I've decided that he loves women. But I feel it in a single mom who works too hard,

2:02:26 right? And he like re and he's giving money to the women. We don't hear about any other character doing that.

2:02:31 You have to be a [clears throat] lovely person to and think about the time period back then of like those women were not respected by many people at all.

2:02:40 Exactly. This is a high standing man in society like helping, you know. Did we just

2:02:45 wait not to mention that his last name Why didn't I notice this? His Chapman. Annie Chapman.

2:02:53 That's his um anglicized name. His real last name is Klosski, which is pretty close to Cosminski. Real close to Cosminski.

2:03:06 Yeah. So, could these have just been like Could there be a lot of like clar which would be so Mercury Gemini Virgo coded of that moment

2:03:16 of that moment? And that happens all the time in cases like this, especially the ones that we talk about that take forever to get solved. Nine out of 10 times there's a clerical error involved. [ __ ] everything up and how did they figure it out?

2:03:27 Yeah. Wow. That's really fascinating. Actually, I got to look even further into George Chapman and we got to like

2:03:34 Guys, we're about to do eight. When when he died, he had no remorse. Yeah, he had a complete dick.

2:03:42 He never he he was like he didn't say any last words. That's why and it had to have been someone like that.

2:03:48 And also think of that he didn't say any last words. And we have storytelling in words as like a piece here. So, the only thing I mean there's a lot of things that would weaken this case, but one of them is that I do feel like in those murders

2:04:03 in 1888 in those five like there was just such a desire to be caught. I can't shake that feeling.

2:04:09 Yeah. That whoever which would make me feel like whoever it was could have just like off themselves right after, you know, and the reason we don't know who it is

2:04:18 Yeah. is is just somebody who just like couldn't deal with the insanity that they were going through, which obviously they had to be.

2:04:26 Yeah. Wow. Because why did it stop? You could say it stopped cuz it switched. Yeah. Cuz then he went to poisoning. Right. Right. Well, they could have

2:04:35 just try a little bit of everything. See what See what poison. It's like, like I said, little projects.

2:04:40 Little projects. Wow. Might be George Chapman, guys. I mean, I think it could be.

2:04:46 That was fascinating. You're so good. You are so You are like my astrology idol. I'm sitting here like, I got to get this good like godamn wild.

2:04:55 Well, I mean, this is it's a real treat to solve a a 150year-old murder on on this beautiful couch with you both.

2:05:06 That's what we're doing here today. That was so cool, Elisa. That was insane. Thank you so much for that. I think we just solved it. Now I need to look into George Chapman and I need to make a we got to make a real case

2:05:17 for this. We got to get on the Australian wire. So we got to get our clickbait.

2:05:22 We figured it out. Contact them over. Forget the shaw. Look at the charts. The shaw doesn't exist. What are you talking about? It's a table runner. I'm pretty sure. Stop.

2:05:33 Well, weirdos, we have more stuff upcoming with Elisa. We're actually about to record something entirely different, but it's going to be a little while before that comes out. So keep your eyes peeled.

2:05:43 So before we let you go, is there anything you want to plug? I would love for you all to listen to my podcast horoscope weekly. Uh episodes come out every Monday and every Wednesday. Our Monday episodes are horoscopes for every single sign and they also talk about the astrology weather of the week ahead and there's a theme of the week that we work with. And then the Wednesday episodes are where we learn astrology. We talk about how astrology impacts our lives. We go into things like moon signs and the houses and Saturn and you know you can you could do all of this. You can solve cases too.

2:06:19 That's the plug. Listen to Horoscope Weekly and solve murders. Period. Let's go honeys. We leave you with that.

2:06:28 So we hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it weird. But not so weird that you're Jack the Ripper.

2:06:36 Yeah. Not that weird. Yeah. Don't ever keep it that weird. Don't be that weird.

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "Episode 727: Stars over Whitechapel with Special Guest Aliza Kelly"?

Elena (Host), Ash (Host), Elisa Kelly (Guest).

What is "Episode 727: Stars over Whitechapel with Special Guest Aliza Kelly" about?

The discussion centers on the intersection of astrology and historical mysteries, focusing on "Stars Over Whitechapel," a detailed examination of the Jack the Ripper case. Special guest Aliza Kelly joins the hosts to delve into astrological insights that could shed new light on long-standing theories surrounding the infamous case, while also addressing recent claims regarding DNA evidence.

What is mentioned in this Morbid | Podcast episode?

25 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including astrology, Katherine Edetos, Alisa Kelly, White Chapel, Mary Jane Kelly, Mary Anne Nichols. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "Episode 727: Stars over Whitechapel with Special Guest Aliza Kelly"?

The episode runs 2 h 8 min; the transcript is about 24,241 words in 645 timestamped sections.

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