Transcript

Episode 733: Emma Cunningham and the Murder of Harvey Burdell

From Morbid | Podcast · Episode page · Watch on YouTube

· 1 h 10 min · 13,573 words · 396 timestamped sections

This is the full, timestamped transcript of "Episode 733: Emma Cunningham and the Murder of Harvey Burdell", an episode of Morbid | Podcast published December 14, 2025 (1 h 10 min, about 13,573 words). It mentions 20 people, works and ideas, including Harvey Berdell, Emma Cunningham, John Eckle, George Snodgrass, Nespresso.

What is discussed, and when

  1. – 10:00: Nespresso, Benjamin Feldman, Emma Augusta Hemstead, Emma Cunningham
  2. – 20:00: Harvey Berdell, Saratoga Springs
  3. – 30:00: Saratoga Springs
  4. – 40:00: George Snodgrass, John Eckle, Clyde and Black, Harvey Berdell
  5. – 50:00: Emma Cunningham, George Snodgrass, John Eckle, Harvey Berdell
  6. – 1:00:00: Harvey Berdell, Belleview Hospital, Dr. Samuel Catelyn, John Eckle
  7. – 1:09:55: Emma Cunningham, Harvey Berdell, Benjamin Feldman, Greenwood Cemetery

Notable quotes from "Episode 733: Emma Cunningham and the Murder of Harvey Burdell"

  • No espresso. Nespresso for life.
    about Nespresso · at
  • So, this is an old timey case. It's Emma Cunningham and the murder of Harvey Berdell.
    about Harvey Berdell · at
  • Emma Augusta Hemstead was born in Manhattan, New York.
    about Emma Augusta Hemstead · at
  • So, sorry. according to author Benjamin Feldman, who we have linked in the show notes, Emma learned the lessons well, but she fell short in practical application. That's to say basically that she recognized the significance of.
    about Benjamin Feldman · at
  • She was just going to get drunk. So following the marriage, they settled into a rented townhouse on Irving Place in the Union Square neighborhood of Manhattan. and they lived…
    about Irving Place · at
  • Emma finally gave in and in the summer of 1855 agreed to accompany him that summer on a trip to Saratoga Springs, which was a very popular destination for elite travelers because it was the racetracks.
    about Saratoga Springs · at
  • Berdell's told the jury that shortly before he was murdered, Harvey informed him that Emma, her daughter John Eckle, and another border, George Snodgrass.
    about John Eckle · at
  • That's me. She was from Clyde and Black's parasol and cane store.
    about Clyde and Black · at

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

  • Harvey Berdell — Person · 12 mentions · first at
  • Emma Cunningham — Person · 9 mentions · first at
    So, this is an old timey case. It's Emma Cunningham and the murder of Harvey Berdell.
  • John Eckle — Person · 7 mentions · first at
  • George Snodgrass — Person · 6 mentions · first at
    Before he was murdered, Harvey informed him that Emma, her daughter John Eckle, and another border, George Snodgrass.
  • Benjamin Feldman — Person · 2 mentions · first at
  • Emma Augusta Hemstead — Person · 1 mention · first at
  • Isabella Banford — Person · 1 mention · first at
    I love a shop girl. Her name was Isabella Banford.
  • Agnes Smith — Person · 1 mention · first at
    Not is not something I remember. Later that day, the jury also heard from Margaret Alviset and Agnes Smith shop girls as well who work at a nearby competitor of Clyde and Black.
  • Margaret Alviset — Person · 1 mention · first at
    Not is not something I remember. Later that day, the jury also heard from Margaret Alviset and Agnes Smith shop girls as well who work at a nearby competitor of Clyde and Black.
  • Reverend Uriah Marine — Person · 1 mention · first at
    Presented the marriage certificate claiming the two had been married in October 1856 in the rectory of Reverend Uriah Marine. That just sounds like a fake person.
  • Abraham Oakley Hall — Person · 1 mention · first at
    In his opening remarks, prosecutor Abraham Oakley Hall.
  • Dr. Samuel Catelyn — Person · 1 mention · first at
    Locked up in the tombs prior to the her quiddle. According to her affidavit signed by Emma's personal physician, Dr.
  • Adolf Ash — Person · 1 mention
  • Elina — Person · 1 mention

Companies & orgs

Products & tech

Places & events

  • Saratoga Springs — Place · 2 mentions · first at
  • Irving Place — Place · 1 mention · first at
  • Belleview Hospital — Place · 1 mention · first at
    In reality, Hall had simply p procured a baby from the indigent ward at Belleview Hospital. [gasps] Oh, and the indigent means like poor.
  • Greenwood Cemetery — Place · 1 mention · first at
    Death. In 2007, historian and author Benjamin Feldman partnered with the Greenwood Cemetery, where Harvey and Emma are buried, to erect two markers side by side, one representing Harvey and the other Emma.

Full transcript with timestamps

Hey weirdos. I'm Ash. And I'm Elina. And this is Morbid. It's morbid. It's posth holiday morbid.

It is. Are you exhaust? I'm exhaust. Are you exhaust? I am car exhaust is what I am. I'm car exhausted. I feel like car exhausted.

I'm tired, man. Yeah, I can't wake up holidaying, you know. Yeah, but I have a maple pecan latte in front of me. Shout out to Got a cup of

I got a cup of maple pecan. Shout out to uh espresso. No espresso for life. No espresso.

No espresso. Nespresso for life. Honestly, I love espresso. I really like the This isn't an ad. Uh they don't pay us. I We just have one.

They did. I think Here's the thing. I don't know if like one of you knows that we love Nespresso and you sent it to the PO box or if Nespresso sent it

sent us Nespresso with no notes. No notes. So, thanks to you guys or thanks to Nespresso. Nebulous individual

who gave us Nespresso cuz I'm really obsessed with the um pistachio and vanilla double espresso.

Yes, I love that one as well. limited edition. So, I think I'm going to buy stock in it and literally have an entire garage filled with it.

I think I bought 34 of that one. I love that. I think in over there there's like

Yeah, we hidden packages. I will say anytime I want it, Mikey provides it to me. So, I think we have a stockpile somewhere.

Mikey bought some and then they would only allow you to buy a certain amount. So, then I bought more cuz I also really like that flavor. So, we do have a stockpile cuz I have I have yet to find myself wanting it and not being able to find it.

That's one thing about Mikey. If you tell Mikey that you like something, he will buy you 38 million of it. Like, I love Christmas tree cakes. I've loved Christmas tree cakes. The vanilla ones.

Yep. Of course. Since the dawn of time. They're so good. Um, they've been around my entire life.

Since the dawn of time. Since the dawn of time, essentially. And he knows I love them. and he knows that they start getting hard to find very easily.

See, I didn't realize that until last year how sought after they are. They're like those Pillsberry cookies that have like,

you know, different holiday things on them. Like the sugar cookies. Every Halloween the pumpkin ones sell out and you can't find them anywhere for like weeks before Halloween. Christmas too, like they always do. It's the same thing. You just can't find them anywhere. So Mikey bought me like eight boxes of them.

Yeah, he's a [ __ ] dude. There's just a whole bag of these things and he got me the brownies, which I love. The Christmas tree brownies.

He's just He really provides for us. He's not in the office today and I think I miss him.

I miss him a lot. I think I'm I think I miss you, Michael. You're going to edit this, but I just want you to know that

I think I miss you. Don't edit it. Are you guys okay? Leave it in there. Oh, no. I mean, you're going to edit this episode, so like you'll hear that I miss.

Oh, I thought you meant he'll take it out. I was like, he won't take it out. No, don't take out my message of you. No love will be taken out. What do you got for me today, Red?

Well, today I have I haven't done an old timey case in a while. No, actually, it's been a long time.

It's been a minute. Okay. So, this is an old timey case. It's Emma Cunningham and the murder of Harvey Berdell.

Okay. Uh, it's and very interesting one. It takes place in New York. It's in the 1800s.

Sorry, I just cracked all of my I know. Like, why did you I wasn't thinking of the fact that we're recording a live a live pod right now.

It was like crack. It was literally And then my wrist cracked by accident. You're like, tell me about it. Crack crack.

Like, let me just make this ASMR. Sorry. Yeah. This is very 1800's New York. There's a lot of twists and turns in this. It's not There's murder. There's a lot of fraud. There's a lot of lies. And there at the end, you're going to be like, "What the fuck?"

It's just It's a crazy one. All right, brother. So, let's start off by talking about who Emma is.

Who's Emma? Cuz she seems to be the the focus here. Uh oh. Emma Augusta Hemstead was born in Manhattan, New York.

Baller name and baller place to be born. She was born on August 15th, 1818. What does that make her? Aaliyah.

Uh she was born to Christopher and Sarah Hempstead. Uh they were devout Methodists who raised their children in a very strictly religious household.

Fun. Um a lot of these stories have that in there. Um, religion was definitely a fundamental part of most families at the time. So, it's not like they were like this unique outlier or anything, but Christopher and Sarah Hemstead were com more committed than most.

Okay. Um, they impressed upon their children the three fundamentals of a morally righteous life, which like righteous,

totally righteous, not like righteous, but like righteous righteous. Um, piety, thrift, and restraint. What's piety again? I think that's like you you're pious.

Not you using the actual word to talk. I did that thing where I'm like it means this piety.

Piety is like purity I think maybe or the quality of being religious or reverent.

There you go. A belief or point of view that is accepted with reverence. Yeah. Is that I couldn't figure out how to explain like I'm like religious like it just means like

Okay. So it means like you pray and you go to church and you you do the things you devote yourself to a higher power. You do all of the actions that are required of your religion.

You're full of religion. So, you need to be pious. You need to be thrifty. Thrifty. Okay. I can thrifty.

And you need restraint. Unfortunately, I don't be having any. I guess I'm out. Like I just said, I will eat 64 Christmas tree brownies. I have a bag of Christmas tree cakes that

Yeah. tell me that I can't go by that one. So, sorry. Um, according to author Benjamin Feldman, who we have linked in the show notes, Emma learned the lessons well, but she fell short in practical application. That's to say basically that she recognized the significance of these like core tenants. Um, if you want to be righteous, righteous,

righteous. But she really wanted a life of comfort. She wanted a life of opulence. And she wanted a life of luxury. Honey, who can blame her? She wasn't looking to be thrifty and restraint at being a part of her life.

Now, Christopher Hemstead earned a modest living as a rope maker, which is like

a rope maker. Never came across that career field yet. No. In all of our cases, rope the box.

Uh he sold his wares to the sailors and dock workers who were found on the shores of the East River.

That's cool. When Emma was still young, her dad moved the family across the river to Brooklyn. Uh it was at that point it was still Brooklyn was like a pretty small village at that point and he found a pretty lucrative business in the trades on Fulton Street. Although the move was

basically intended to improve the lives of the family. You know he thought he could get more work, all that good stuff. Feldman notes that following the move to Brooklyn there is no record of Emma participating in any formal religious activities.

She says [ __ ] a whole bunch of that. Yeah, [ __ ] that. There could be several reasons for this. Like, you know, maybe she was present, but she wasn't documented as being there. Like, that could have been it. It's not like we have like, you know, it was the 1800s. Documentation was a little wy.

Maybe she forgot to sign in. But Feldman suggests as the eldest daughter, quote, "Demands were undoubtedly placed upon Emma to care for her younger brothers and sisters." So, that could be it.

So, it probably made her want to break away from the family sooner as well, cuz she had a lot of responsibility placed on her.

Yeah. In 1837, when Emma was 19 years old, she met and soon married George Cunningham. He was a businessman 22 years older than her.

Christopher and Sarah Hemstead were horrified by their daughter's choice of husband.

Oh no. Not only because he was not Methodist, but also because he made his living manufacturing. Are you ready?

Not ropes. Licker [gasps] was a bootleger. They said that's an evil trade. It's a disgusting

evil trade. Said not the IPAs. That is not righteous. Not the potatoes. They're supposed to be mashed.

Not used for vodka. Well, and to make matters worse, as far as they could tell, George seemed to live his life in complete opposition of the religious values that they were trying to teach.

He was out here hailing Satan, and they were worried that he was going to lure Emma into a lifestyle of just debauchery.

She was just going to get drunk. So following the marriage, they settled into a rented townhouse on Irving Place in the Union Square neighborhood of Manhattan. Uh, and they lived there, you know, a pleasant upper class life together. And just two years later, Emma gave birth to her first child, Margaret Augusta

Mausle, who Mausle, who was followed by Helen in 1842 and Georgina in 1844. Georgina, love that name. So following the birth of Georgina, Emma discovered that although he earned a pretty good income, George wasn't uh great with money.

Oh. And in 19 1846, they could no longer afford their like upper class lifestyle and they were forced to move back to the more modest Brooklyn neighborhood where Emma grew up.

Oh no. Which is not great. And her parents were like, "Told you so." Yeah. Just a few months after moving to Brooklyn, Emma gave birth to the couple's fourth child, George, who was followed in 1847 by their fifth and final child, William.

That's a lot of babies. A lot of babies. The financial downturn they endured in 1846, definitely exacerbated a very clear existing rift between George and Emma. It began a year or so before that when Emma realized George's business success wasn't as guaranteed as she had previously believed. Yeah, sounds like

she had kind of been bamboozled a little bit. Also, George's failures in the distilling business and other ventures led to an early termination of the real estate agreement set up by his father, which was intended to last several decades and provide income for his sisters, which caused additional strife in the family.

Oh, [ __ ] So, all kinds of family shenanigans. They got married and it just everything exploded. It sounds like

it was like he he had like this huge facade up and then when they got married it just all crumbled down and she was like, "Oh, [ __ ] Now I have five kids with you."

Yeah. Attached myself to a sinking ship. Now, out of desperation, George decided to make one last play for fortune in 19 1849, sorry. And he joined the thousands of men venturing out to California in search of gold.

The gold rush. The gold rush. Unfortunately, he returned to Brooklyn less than a year later, broke and having failed at yet another business venture.

When he came back to Brooklyn, his relationship with Emma was really just like barely there.

Yeah. Uh she wasn't actively courting other men. She did have very little love for her husband, though. Like

I mean, at that kind of at that rate, I get it. Things seemed like they were really bad. Things only got worse when George began exhibiting symptoms of a quote tropical disease believed to have been contracted on his return trip from California.

Oh man, the hits just keep coming. Poor guy. They managed to scrape by with what little income they could find until June 1st, 1854 when George finally succumbed to his illness.

He died. Yeah. In an attempt to safeguard his family's well-being though, George Cunningham took out two insurance policies just before leaving for California.

Okay. They totaled $10,000. Good money. But with the money put into a real estate trust managed by George's lawyer, Emma was barely able to support herself and the children with her monthly income from the trust. Also, having become estranged from her own family after her father died several years earlier, Emma had no social safety net that she could turn to for any kind of financial support or emotional support.

Any kind of support. Yeah. Yeah. Cuz regardless of like what their relationship was, like it's her husband dying and the father of her children.

Yeah. Her five children that she's now alone to raise. She was determined though to keep her family from becoming destitute. And she wanted not only that, she didn't want to just keep everything going. She wanted to rejoin the upper class in Manhattan.

She got a taste of that [ __ ] Yeah. She said, "I'mma find a new husband." She said, "It's better up there."

Yep. And she said, "Let me go find a husband that can get me that. Go get him, girl.

Five kids, man. Like, go get go after it. Go get him, Tiger." Now, at 36 years old, Emma was solidly middle-aged. She was middle-aged at this point and knew very well that her best prospects of finding a new husband would be probably among

the widowers of her same age basically. The problem was that in 1854, Brooklyn was still, like I said before, a pretty small village and it was built on marshy wetlands populated by what Feldman describes as quote coarse and uneducated. Oh,

hardly the type that would want to or even be capable of pulling her and her children up to the upper class.

Yeah. Uh instead, she looked across the river, of course, to Manhattan. I was going to say, go to Manhattan.

Yeah, you got to go to Manhattan. Go to the big city. Yeah. She found herself in the home at one point of Dr. Harvey Berdell, who was a doctor

unmarried dentist. Oh, dentist. You say we got a dentist. According to Feldman, Emma pursued and was pursued by other eligible men before and after moving into Berdell's boarding house at 31 Bond Street. So, he owned the boarding house.

He wrote, among others, Emma exchanged intimate letters for a year and a half with former Aego, New York resident Whitthall C. Hyde, but abandoned that romance once she realized the relationship wasn't probably going to end in marriage.

Can I just say that Whitthall is such a baller name, right? Whitthall. The problem, it seemed, was that while men were attracted to Emma, none of her suitors seemed particularly interested in getting married.

Yeah. Especially to a widow with five children. Yeah. Understandable. Running out of money and facing what she didn't want, poverty. Emma became desperate, which Feldman suggests could be the reason why she quote may well have ignored any unsavory information about the handsome, well-known Dr. Berdell.

I I feel like a a weird emphasis on the well-known. Yeah. So, she pursued that relationship with Gusto.

Okay. Harvard Berdell was born January 8th, 1812. He's Capricorn in Herkimer, New York to John and Paulie Berdell. I love the name Paulie.

It's adorable. Reports of Harvey's earlier life are pretty vague and they kind of like contradict themselves. It's really not something you can kind of put into a good chronological order. But most agree that young Harvey's life was kind of an unfortunate cycle of instability, tragedy, and rejection. Oh,

it wasn't great. Just a few years after he was born, his father either died or divorced his wife. Accounts kind of differ.

Um, leaving Paulie with five children to raise and no income. Damn. Another five children.

I was going to say weird. Yeah, it echoes. When Harvey was 12 years old, his mother married James Layman, an upstate New York farmer with very little interest in the children from Pauliey's previous marriage.

Intending to have children of his own with his new wife, James made it clear that Harvey and his siblings weren't welcome in his home.

The five children, a literal piece of [ __ ] And uh Polly was just like, "Okay, bye kids."

And in 1824, Harvey was forced out of the house and had to take care of himself with no resources and very few skills.

What the [ __ ] Being abandoned by his mother at such an early age set the stage for how Harvey would come to conceive of relationships and attachments.

Oh, good. And serve as the foundation of his pretty low opinion of women that he would develop in later years.

Yeah. Harvey managed to complete a few more years of formal education, which is pretty impressive to be honest. before leaving school and working a series of odd jobs in the years after that around 1829 when he was just 17 years old cuz he was like 12 when he went out.

That's awful. He became the owner of the Auego Advisor, a small upstate newspaper that had started several years earlier. Although the paper folded just a year after that, it led to a job offer from a rival newspaper, which eventually led to Harvey traveling to the Philadelphia area. And when he got there, he started attending lectures at the Jefferson Medical College.

It was here that he received the education to become a dentist. But there's no documented evidence of his having graduated from or even like formally attending the college.

Okay. So Feldman points out it was easy for the creative Dr. Berdell to concoct and pass off as truth his medical training credentials for consumption by patients and professional societies.

That's terrifying. Your dentist is a professional. Yeah. He just like attended a few lectures

giving Dr. Death. Yeah. In 1834, Harvey followed his brother John to New York where the two opened a dental practice and would go on to write a dental textbook.

What the [ __ ] Yeah. Like most professional groups at the time, the New York dental profession was still pretty small. So, the Berdell brothers were able to make a name for themselves pretty quickly and easily.

In a good way. This was particularly easy at the time since there were many fraudulent dentists and surgical con artists working around the country at the time.

Fraudical fraudical surgical notical people. And so to in this case a respectable dentist, even if their credentials were suspect, like one that was at the very least doing things on the up and up at this point,

they could kind of expect a pretty lucrative business cuz they were kind of rare. Damn.

Which is wild. In the years that followed, their relationship, the two brothers, as well as their relationship with other siblings deteriorated. There was like a lot of frivolous lawsuits, romantic affairs, but that like got all intertwined and [ __ ] up. Oh.

But the business they built together remained a success. Okay. Now, by 1854, Harvey was running his own dental practice and seeing no need to live alone in his large home. So, he opened his Bond Street residence to borders, and it didn't take long for Berdell to take a romantic interest in his newest border.

After months of subtle flirting, in which Harvey repeatedly beseeched Emma to throw off her black clothes and embrace life again cuz she was a widow, remember?

Yeah. He said, "Get out of morning, girl." He said, "Girl, get sexy and flirt."

Isn't that the Princess Diaries when Joe is like, "You've been wearing black for too long."

Yeah. I love Joe from the Princess Diaries. I do too. That's what made me think of it. I was like a

and the queen and I love that. So that's essentially what Harvey Berdell did. Okay, don't make me root for this cuz I feel like I'm not supposed to. Emma finally gave in and in the summer of 1855 agreed to accompany him that summer on a trip to Saratoga Springs,

which was a very popular destination for elite travelers because it was the racetracks.

Traveling in the company of Emma's teenage daughter, Helen, the three registered at Saratoga's Congress Hall Hotel and immediately began taking in the sights. So she likes their shop.

Yeah. She's like, "Helen's coming. I need here's a quick little detour. Um cuz here we are.

Where are you going to take us? Helen makes me think. Any of you who have kids, maybe if you don't have kids, maybe you're watching it. Please tell me you've seen the show.

[ __ ] I love Helen. Please tell me you've seen the show KIF. It's great. It is one of the funniest kids shows. We literally request that my kids were like, they're like, "What should we watch?" I'm like, "Kif,

throw on Kiff." Anytime they want to watch TV with me, I'm like, "Can we watch KIF?"

It's got old school vibes of like the things we used to watch when we were younger. And I think the true creators, cuz John looked into them because he was like, "This show's [ __ ] awesome." And all the songs in it are very like pop punky songs. So, we were like, "Who are these people that made this? They've got to be our age. Like, this has to be it." And turns out they are. And I think they're Australian. I'm not positive, but

they just have better humor. They I think one of them, like the guy was in a band, like a pop punk band. So, all those songs are meant to be like that.

That only makes sense. And then he loved that animation style. Like they both love the animation style of like the Ren and Stimpies and all that where they would, you know, in Ren and Stimpy, you guys will know this.

They used to do this thing where they would go like really close up and it would get more detailed and like weird.

Yeah. Like on like on somebody's face or something. They do that in Kif and it gives you such weird nostalgia.

K is so It's so weird, but it's so good. So [ __ ] weird, but it's awesome. And Helen is a character who is a witch.

She's me and her voice. I love her. I want to be Helen for the next listener tales, but I don't know if anyone will get it,

guys. And she's always just like, "Yeah, I'm Helen." That's her voice. I'm Helen.

I'm Oh my god, that is so good. Oh my god. Yeah, it's Please, if your children are not watching K watching

the episode where they're going to make Helen a star, but they're like like they're making her like a fake star like for people to laugh at. That would make

But then Kif and Barry try to Yeah, it doesn't. [clears throat] It's got good little messages into it. So good.

That's my little detour. Every time I hear the name Helen, I can't help but think of Helen.

I love it. Um, but yeah, so Helen went with them. So Emma's intentions had been to secure a husband and in doing that also secure a very stable financial future for herself and her children.

Yeah. Throughout their trip to Saratoga Springs, Harvey lavished Emma with attention, with adoration, indicating that her strategy was working. Hey, that fall, more evidence of success came when uh the three had returned home and Emma began experiencing morning sickness on a regular basis.

Oh, they had a good time in Saratoga. They sure did. Recognizing the pretty unmistakable signs of pregnancy.

Remember five times of doing it. Emma was like, "Success." She said, "Marry me, bitch."

After all, any respectable man in Harvey's position would surely do the right thing and marry the woman who was carrying his child.

Oh, no. Unfortunately, oh no, Emma was wrong. Oh no. Having spent years building a reputation and considerable number of assets, he wasn't going to risk it all for a woman he barely knew.

Oh, he just impregnated. But I said, "Oh, you barely knew. You impregnated her."

Yeah, you knew her enough to do that. I knew her. I impregnated her. Like, what the [ __ ] Now, how or when Harvey became aware of Emma's pregnancy is kind of unknown, but in testimony given at Emma's trial, uh,

witnesses recalled her spending considerable time in bed around mid to late November. Um, and this is sad, recuperating from what they believed was a miscarriage.

Oh, no. Yeah. Um, similarly, in a statement given to her lawyers, Emma explained that when she told Harvey about the pregnancy, he insisted on examining her himself. And I was like,

"You're a dentist. The [ __ ] I don't have teeth down there." So, and after confirming the pregnancy, he quote, "Produced an abortion with his own hands."

Oh, yeah. [ __ ] Like, not at her will. No. Oh. Aside from the testimony in Emma's statement, there is no evidence of her pregnancy or her having had an abortion. However, given his medical training and access to medical knowledge, it is entirely possible that he did perform it himself.

Yeah. Now, had Emma not been so eager to find a husband and climb back up the social ladder, it's likely she would have noticed that Harvey wasn't quite the charming and respectable man that she had kind of hoped he would be.

Yeah. In fact, while he may have had a good reputation in some business circles, he also had a reputation as essentially a scoundrel.

He sounds like a scoundrel to me. Yeah. Uh throughout New York, there were several creditors and vendors who Harvey just refused to pay after receiving services or loans.

Giving HH homes. It is hinting at the greed and nonchalants that seem to motive nearly everything he did.

And just like thinking he's better so he doesn't have to. I don't have to do that. The worst of these came in 1835 when on his wedding day, Harvey quote, "Demanded $20,000 from the wealthy father of the bride to be in order to go through with the wedding."

What the [ __ ] Yeah. Just bribed her. Yeah. Just bribed her. Um, disgusted with Harvey's demand, the man refused to pay. And Harvey promptly threw both the father and his betrothed out of the house and called off the wedding.

What the [ __ ] Uh-huh. He said, "If you don't give me $20,000, I will not marry your daughter."

Yeah. And then was like, "Bye. I really won't. You You're all going to leave now."

He said, "Don't [ __ ] around and find out." Now, in time, Emma came to learn that as far as Harvey was concerned, sex and love were two very different matters.

While the couple continued their sexual relationship into 1856, Harvey continued to refuse to marry Emma or even acknowledge their relationship in public spheres.

Oh, he was treating her like she was way less than. Yeah. Fed up with Harvey's disinterest and tired of fighting, Emma made one final attempt to get him to legitimize their relationship. And in October 1856, she filed suit against him in civil court for breach of promise.

Oh, that I love that. Isn't that a wild one? The suit ended with a kind of informal settlement that stated, "In consequence of the settling of the suit now pending between Emma Augusta Cunningham and myself, I agree as follows. One, I extend to herself and family my friendship through life. Two, I agree never to do or act in any manner to the disadvantage of Mrs. Emma A. Cunningham.

It's unknown why that document would satisfy Emma, especially if she intended to get him to commit to marriage with this.

Yeah. But it was what was clear was that Harvey still had no intention of marrying her. He's like, I'll be nice to her. In an interview with a reporter from the Daily Herald in 1857, New York County Deputy Sheriff Hugh Crombi was asked by a reporter, "Do you believe Berdell ever thought of marrying her?" And he replied, "Marry her? Why, he'd sooner have committed suicide."

Oh, [ __ ] That's a quote, by the way. Yeah. And Crombi wasn't the only one who knew of Harvey's deep disinterest in marriage. Shortly before he died, he remarked to a friend that he quote would not marry the best woman living.

Why? Cuz he's a scoundrel. Said you ain't gonna tie me down. No, he is a scoundrel and a forever bachelor.

He wouldn't marry the the best woman living. Wow. It's like damn. Okay. It's giving like southern charm.

Good luck, bro. It wasn't just Emma who struggled with Harvey's coldness. In fact, he seemed almost incapable of maintaining literally any close relationship with anyone, including his family.

Yeah. In the spring of 1856, when Harvey's cousin Deus Hubard came to stay in New York for with him for a short time, Harvey began ignoring Emma altogether and instead lavished his young female cousin with attention and adoration.

I don't want to know anything about that. I don't need you to tell me anything about that.

Yeah. So, she had gone to her cousin seeking shelter after her marriage had fallen apart, and she wasn't interested in romantic or sexual attraction, especially from a family member.

That's good. The girl stayed on at the house for a few weeks until the situation became intolerable.

And she relocated to the home of Harvey's brother, William, cuz she was like, Harvey's [ __ ] gross.

What a freak. For Emma, who had essentially taken on the role of wife without anything that goes along with it,

at least within the walls of the house, too, not in public, that was the final straw. After the incident with his cousin, relations between Harvey and Emma deteriorated to the point that rather than eat dinner at home with her, Harvey began taking his meals to a hotel around the corner.

Yeah. I'd be like, "Okay, you cousin [ __ ] I don't want to eat dinner with you anyway."

"Okay, you cousin [ __ ] Go eat your meal around the corner. Bye." By January, the two were hardly speaking, and Emma strongly suspected that not only was Harvey having an affair with one of his dental patients, but he also intended to sell the house at 31 Bond Street and cut all ties with her.

Oh [ __ ] On the morning morning of January 30th, Harvey was seen by several of the boarding house residents in the company of a woman to whom he was giving a tour.

Uhoh. Seeing the two together, Emma approached one of the maids and asked who the woman was and was informed that she was to be the new owner of the house and would be taking possession on the 1st of May. And Emma said to her, "He better be careful. He may not live to sign the papers."

Oh. And I said, "Oh, skirt." On the morning of January 31st, a little after 7 a.m., Harvey's office assistant, John Burchell, arrived at his house and went down to the cellar to collect coal to light the fire and harvest.

Where is Harvey? Yeah. He's just like, "Oh." As the boy made his way up to the second floor, he stopped to say hello to the landl, who looked particularly depressed that morning.

And this is Emma. Yeah. As he approached the door to the office, John immediately noticed that a key was dangling from the lock on the outside of the door. Cautiously, because he didn't want to disturb whatever whatever business was taking place inside, he nudged the door open quietly and was shocked at what he discovered on the other side. Harvey was lying on his left side, face down in a large pool of his own blood.

Uhoh. Burchchell ran to fetch the police and Dr. JW Francis, a doctor who lived nearby, and all arrived at the house a short time later. Harvey had been stabbed 15 times in the chest and neck.

Holy [ __ ] And there was considerable bruising on his neck from a liature that was discovered near the body.

Damn. According to Dr. Francis, one of the stab wounds had severed Harvey's corateed artery, causing blood to spurt, quote, violently from the victim's chest and neck. Oh my god.

And leaving blood spatter and smears more than five feet up the walls. What the [ __ ]

Oh, the corateed artery is no joke. Evidently. Yeah. There was also a large uh blood trail leading from the dental chair in the center of the room to the door.

Sounds like a horror movie. Yeah. Given the considerable damage done to the body, Dr. Francis couldn't say for certain which of the injuries had been the fatal blow, telling reporters any one of the stab wounds was sufficient to cause death.

Yeah. The wounds appeared to have been delivered in a combination of slashes and stabs.

Oh, varied in their depths and like just everywhere. This person is mad. And it it indicated that whoever did it was in a rage. A

little frenzy. Yeah. The coroner theorized the implement used in the death was about 8 in in length, sharp pointed, and somewhere about 3/4 of an inch wide.

What the [ __ ] Yeah. That's not even Is that like a butcher knife or not even? That's what is 8 in.

That's long. That's long. Yeah, that's like a [ __ ] machete or something. Can you imagine?

Longer. But am I coming at you with a machete? No, I can't picture that. Police officers, with the help of the coroner, checked the three individuals living in the house for evidence of them being part of the murder. But they didn't find anything to indicate the three played a role at all. A search of the premises was pretty unproductive. They didn't really find a whole lot of evidence, but there was a blood trail leading from the office to the top floor, which indicated that the killer was not in a really big hurry to flee the scene.

Okay. Uh, a search of the attic turned up a sheet and several items of clothing smeared with blood, including a shirt with the name Charles J. Ketchum printed on it.

Huh. By 9:00 a.m., the crime scene had attracted a big mob of people, locals, members of the press,

looking for something to do. All were trying to get a look inside the house. Like you said, just looking for something to do, you know.

Yeah. Just the days the days ahead. Noting that Harvey's wallet and gold watch were still on him when the corner removed the body to the bedroom, investigators quickly ruled out robbery.

Yep. There really wasn't a lot of clues. There really wasn't a lot of theories. So, a corner's inquest was assembled the following day, which took place in the residence. Um, I always love how these like in the 1800s, this is why I love old timey cases, guys.

So fun. They would just do the [ __ ] in the house. Yeah. like a coroner's inquest just in the boarding house.

Lay down the little table. They're like, "Let's do it." I love how just like cobbled together everything.

The first testimony heard in the inquest was that of a local dentist, Alan Smith, who claimed to have seen Harvey about midday on the day uh before, which was January 30th. Smith had been working with Harvey on the manufacturing of dental implants, which wild

crazy. And the two men had seen each other at least once a day for several weeks. Smith testified that he had heard angry arguments between Harvey and Emma in the days leading up to the murder, stemming from Harvey's belief that Emma had stolen the key to his safe.

Oh, the cook, Hannah Conlin, took a game of also, right? It feels like clue, right?

She the uh the cook, Hannah Conlin, also testified that she had heard aggressive arguments between them, including one, quote, in reference to some papers which the deceased accused her of stealing. Oh. Conland's testimony corroborated the difficult and violent relationship between Emmy Emma and Harvey. Um, but the cook was also able to provide more insight into Emma's life in general. According to Conlin, Emma was often seen sitting in the parlor or bedroom with John Eckl, another of the borders in the house. Hannah gave the assembled jury considerable insight into Harvey's relationship with Emma. But the biggest bombshell was when Hannah revealed that Emma had become pregnant with Verdell's child. She told the jury the last Thanksgiving day, Mrs. Cunningham had a miscarriage of a child by Dr. Brell. She also told the jury a doctor was called a few days later to tend to the wound Emma had sustained during one of her

arguments with Harvey. Oh. That caused her to bleed freely from the nose. Oh, okay.

Which to me sounds like he hit her in the face. Yep. 100%. Emma appeared on the witness stand late on the first day of the inquest, but she provided a few details of her life in in relationship with Harvey, which it wasn't a lot. She didn't give a lot, but what she did provide was a certificate of marriage as evidence that she and Harvey were married on October 28th, 1856.

Who knew? Look at that. Who knew? I don't even think Harvey knew. So, who knew?

He was like, I was there. Otherwise, she chose to speak of Harvey's character, telling the jury about an affair that Harvey had with his brother's wife 20 or so years earlier.

Damn, that'll do it. Yeah. As well as the lawsuits and claims of slander that followed. It would seem, sensing that she might come under a suspicion, Emma was trying to establish that he was a man of poor character and his actions and attitude could have earned him any number of enemies who wished to kill him.

Yeah. Which like wasn't wrong. Nope. It's unclear whether her testimony had any effect on the jury, but it won her no friends in the press. They described her as not handsome, rude,

and scarcely good-looking. Oh my. Which is the way they just used to read a [ __ ] to filth back then.

Scarcely. What was it? Don't ever tell me I'm not handsome. Okay. I am so handsome. And then what was it? Scarcely good-looking.

Scarcely goodlook. That's diabolical. It feels like I don't know if I'm like a descendant of Emma's because I feel hurt right now.

Like imagine somebody just being like scarcely good. Good looking. Oh my god. Like damn.

And also what the [ __ ] does that have to do with anything? Yeah. They're ugly so she's a murderer.

They're like I'm hot and and you're not top that dead. In the week that followed, one witness after another testified um as to Harvey's mcurial and peculiar character. Uh but the witness testimony always had a way of making its way back to Emma.

On the sixth day, an acquaintance of Berdell's told the jury that shortly before he was murdered, Harvey informed him that Emma, her daughter John Eckle, and another border, George George Snodgrass.

Shut the [ __ ] up. Sorry, I had to take a minute to go. Snodgrass, [snorts] as you

if you could see, I had to make a point of that. Yep. Uh George Snodgrass obsessed.

He told So he told um Berdell or no, excuse me, sorry, not George, but like somebody told him that those three were

it was an acquaintance of Berdell. He was the one who testified that Berdell had told him before he got murdered. That all those people, Emma, her daughter, John Eckle, and that border, George Snodgrass, course had threatened his life.

Oh, [ __ ] All together now. All together now. All right. All of them standing in ones that we said, "We're going to end your life.

You're going to die." Um, the testimony led the jury to believe the murder was committed from quote deep longmeditated revenge. And it was insisted that all further witnesses be interviewed, quote, with reference to that fact,

which I was like, feels like leading though, a little bit. Uh, but okay. While it was clear that the coroner and the jury were focusing on the deteriorating relationship between them and Harvey as clear motive for murder.

Yeah. There were other witnesses whose testimony kind of undermined that theory.

Okay. During their questioning of Berdell's friend and former partner, Alva Blasell, that's what it is. Bldale, for example, the jury was told while it was true that Harvey complained about Emma regularly, he was known to exaggerate problems and was likely just venting his frustrations. Blas Bler, Dr. Berdell is a peculiar man. He will have a quarrel, say it this hour, and the next hour will be pleasant. So, I think she's just like, I don't know. He's kind of like a flighty [ __ ] Like he's just kind of mad at you one minute and then you're fine the next.

It's kind of Geminises of him. It It kind of is. I know. I'm like I think he's a Capricorn.

He's a Capricorn. Yeah. I don't know his chart though. That's true. Maybe maybe a Gemini rising.

There you go. I was going to say maybe his rising is is more accurate. Look at you.

One of the last people called to testify was a shop girl named I love a shop girl.

I love a shop girl. Her name was Isabella Banford. Pretty Isabella Banford from the shop.

That's me. She was from Clyde and Black's parasol and cane store. Oh, but get your get your parasols. Get your canes.

You need help walking. You hate the sun. Come on down. I love that there's just a store for parasols and canes.

Uh Banford told the jury that on the morning of January 30th, a man and woman, period. A man and woman.

A man and woman asked about purchasing aa aa aa aa aa aa aa aa aa aa a a sword cane.

I need to look it up because I think it is what I think it is. The way that I almost just spit this copy across the [ __ ] universe. A sword cane.

A sword cane, which What is that? Is exactly what you think it is. I don't even know what I think it is.

It's a cane, but if you pull the top, it's a sword. Like, there's a sword in the cane.

That is fun. And I get it. You want a sword cane. Who doesn't wanted a sword cane? I just got so lost.

A man and a woman. Oh, just a man cave woman. Yeah. Or the woman asked about purchasing a sword cane.

Okay. Uh according So she said a request from a woman for such a weapon was rare.

Yeah. I bet. Um according to Banford, which is why it stuck out in her memory, she said that that's rare. So that's why I thought of it. Yeah. But after viewing what the store had available, the woman claimed she quote needed something much shorter and sturdier.

She said, "I don't really care for your sword canes. I don't like your swords. They're not good.

Or your canes. And she said she couldn't wait for the next day's delivery. So, I need it now.

I need it now. Then the couple hurried out of the store. I got to get out of here.

I need to leave. You don't have the sword cane I need. I'm going to the next sword and cane store

and parasol. I'll deal with the next shop girl. She'll throw a parasol for free. Her name's Penelopey, not Isabella. Uh, when Banford was brought up to the cell where Emma was being held, she positively identified her as one half of the couple who inquired about the sword king.

She said, "That [ __ ] really wanted a sword. She wanted a [ __ ] sword. A shot one, though."

When she was taken to see John Snodgrass, on the other hand, that guy, she could not identify him as the man who accompanied Emma that day.

She said, "I don't know. His last name is just simply too cool." She said, "His name, though silly, is not is not something I remember." Later that day, the jury also heard from Margaret Alviset and Agnes Smith shop girls as well who work at a nearby competitor of Clyde and Black. There's a competing parasol in Cane store.

That's where she was going to go. The girls testified that a few days before Berdell was murdered, they waited on a couple who'd come in looking to purchase a sword cane.

A sword can? Was it the woman? But instead, they purchased a small dagger about 5 in long.

Well, I was just going to say hot. H. When asked if she would recognize the man and woman, Alviset positively identified them as Emma Cunningham and George Snodgrass.

Not Mr. Snodgrass. When asked whether the dagger purchased by Snodgrass would have inflicted the type of wounds discovered on Harvey's body, the corner confirmed it would have.

She killed him with a dagger. A dagger. A dagger is so metal. Yeah, it's true. And it's like

up. She initially wanted a a [ __ ] sword. Sword cane. A sword. Yeah. Well, she wanted a short one. She wanted a [ __ ] sword.

She said, "One thing about Emma, she might be a crazy [ __ ] After two weeks of testimony and six hours of deliberation, the coroner and the jury had put together a theory as to the suspect and the murder of the crime."

Yeah. Unsurprisingly, the cause of death was determined to be murder. And the jury deemed Emma Cunningham and John John Eckle responsible with George Snodgrass as an accessory.

Oh, no. They also, cuz remember, Emma's been spending a lot of time with those two

in the room with John Eckl. That's like a thing that people said. Huh. They also charged Emma, two of Emma's daughters, Augusta and Helen.

Not Helen, with withholding information about the crime, which is like really I'm like, why' you involve her?

Who's their mom? And it's like, don't involve them. Yeah. No. As for the motive, the jury theorized that Emma had conspired with the other men to murder Berdell in order that she, claiming to be his wife, could access his financial assets. After

Emma, John Eckle, and George Snodgrass were taken into custody and immediately transported to the tombs to await an indictment.

Not the tomb. Not the tomb. Now, while Augusta and Helen were taken into custody of the coroner and placed in a cell to be held as material witnesses, the outcome of a grand jury trial.

I'm now just picturing a lot of this as a Kif episode. And that's weird in my head.

It's getting weird. It is. On February 21st, 1857, Emma and John were brought before the Court of General Sessions, and each was formally indicted on one charge of assault and one charge of murder. The grand jury declined to hand down an indictment against George Snodgrass, however, but they did continue to hold him on $2,500 bail as a material witness for the case.

Okay. Later that day, he was bonded out by his father with the understanding that he was going to appear in court when the time came.

Yeah. Um, finally, dad said, "He's good. He'll be there." Yeah. He said, "It's fine." Finally, after reviewing the evidence presented at the inquiry, the jury determined there was no reason to hold Augusta or Ell Helen as witnesses, and they were both released.

That's good. Yeah. Despite having been indicted for Harvey's murder, Emma continued to pursue what she claimed was her right as his wife to access to his estate.

Damn. So, she is indicted for his murder, and she's like, "Yeah, yeah, when do I get to get to the financial,

baby? If you're convicted, you're not going to get it." Uh-uh. On March 3rd, Emma appeared before Alexander Bradford of the surrogate court, now presenting herself as Emma Cunningham Berdell.

Girl, and seeking a determination of validity of her marriage to Harvey. Babe, you're on trial for murder.

Yeah. Of said Harvey. Yeah. Of the man's of the man's whom to state you want. As she had done previously, Emma again presented the marriage certificate claiming the two had been married in October 1856 in the rectory of Reverend Uriah Marine. That just sounds like a fake person.

But this time, Emma's lawyer, Hen Henry Clinton, called Augusta Cunningham to testify on her mother's behalf.

Clinton claimed, and Augusta swore, that the girl had been present for the for the wedding. And when asked to identify, quote, the man she stood beside in the rectory parlor, she positively identified Harvey Berdell as the man who married her mother that day.

Okay. Unfortunately for Emma, although Reverend Marine was able to positively identify Augusta as the girl who accompanied the couple to the rectory that evening, he couldn't recall anything about the groom. In fact, the only things Marvine remembered of that night in 1856, aside from the presence of Emma and Augusta, was that the groom paid the fee with a $10 bank note and that he made the odd request that the news of the marriage not be reported to the press or otherwise made public. I mean, honey, that's Harvey. Sounds like it. A string of witnesses following Marvine further undermined Emma's claim, telling the jury that in the days just before the alleged marriage took place, Harvey was seen in both Herkimer and Saratoga Toga Springs.

H making it impossible for him to have been with Emma in Manhattan. Okay, so who was that? Clinton challenged each of these witnesses, telling the judge that every one of them was either mistaken by a month in their recollections or conspiring with the Berdell family to defeat an Emma Cunningham suit and line their collective pockets with the estate assets. So, it's getting nasty.

Yeah, it's getting hella messy right now. And who the [ __ ] did she marry? Yeah.

Was it Harvey? I kind of feel like yes. Or was it like John Eckle? I don't know.

Who was it? The matter of Harvey's estate was put on hold starting May 4th. That's good.

Yeah. They were like, "Hey, we'll figure that out, but first we got to find out who killed him."

Emma, it's like, "Let's put this on hold to accommodate the murder trial of John and Emma."

Thanks. In his opening remarks, prosecutor Abraham Oakley Hall. All he could be was a prosecutor.

All he could be. And he's wearing a full suit and he's so sweaty and he's always pulling out his handkerchief to just pat down his face. So animated, you know, like don't you just feel that?

Yeah, he does. Of Abraham Oakley Hall. Yeah, he's so sweaty. He told the jury that the evidence would prove that Harvey had been killed by a member of the household and there was only one in the house, quote, who greater than any other in the world had a motive with malice or forethought to perpetrate and accomplish that horrible deed. Also, the state would prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Emma Cunningham had been motivated by quote hate and revenge for some injury unatoned when she murdered Harvey Berdell with a secondary motive of accessing his estate.

Okay. The prosecution's argument unfolded over the course of basically like 10 days and was more or less a repeat of the coroner's inquest. In the absence of evidence t tying Emma to the murder, the prosecutor relied pretty extensively on hearsay, speculation, and vague witness testimony that suggested a connection, but never actually implicated her in the crime.

Huh. Like the inquest, the more damning testimony came from the shop girls are shop girls. shop girls

who told the jury about Emma and Eckle attempting to purchase a cane sword and from Harvey's cook Hannah Conlin who in fact Conlin was one of the several witnesses who testified as like basically saying that they had a pretty acrimonious and often violent relationship together.

She was the one that was like I was in that house like I heard all of it with the prosecutor paying particular attention to Emma's comment of quote he may not live to sign the papers.

That's a biggie. And that was made on the morning of Harvey's murder. Yeah. While Hall had hoped the jury would be swayed by the witness testimony, he also used the press and public opinion to his advantage. He went out of his way to portray Emma as a greedy woman of loose morals.

Not loose morals as a regular presence in the house. Conlin, the cook, was able to provide considerable insight into the daily lives of the defendants, including testimony about Emma's relationship with Harvey, her supposed abortion, her implied sexual relationship with fellow border John Eckle.

What robe? While none of these things were exactly a motive for murder, Paul basically hoped that they would support the prosecution's position that Emma would stop at nothing to get what she wanted.

Yeah, cuz it's taken all together. It's pretty a lot of information. The defense repeatedly lodged their objection to Hall's line of questioning, arguing that the jury could easily be misled by the quote unreliable memories of domestics. But they were overruled every time.

Huh. I love unreliable memories of domestics. Yeah. Like people working in the house. Like wow. When he had concluded his arguments, Hall had painted a picture of Emma as a scheming murderous willing to use anyone and do anything to achieve her own ends, which according to the prosecutor was wealth and status. Testimony from one witness after another depicted life in the Burdell house as one of constant strife, aggression between Harvey and Emma, who they were told were two depraved and sexually abhorent individuals.

Oh, [ __ ] Yeah. They made them out to be like just abhorentt is such a good word. And most importantly, it is a really good word. And most importantly, Emma had a gun and two knives in her possession.

So why did she need a a a cane soul and was the only left-handed person in the house with a man who'd been murdered by a left-handed assassin.

Oh, anytime there's a lefty involved and and you happen to be a lefty, it's not good for you, dog.

Smoking hand. Legit. Yeah. While the prosecution had taken more than a week to present their case to the jury, Clinton and the defense only required two days to present their rebuttal. Using the rumors and innuendo to their advantage, they counted that Emma wasn't a cold-blooded killer, just a woman who'd found herself in an abusive relationship with a man known for his peculiarities, mood swings, and unsavory behaviors. Although Emma never took the stand in her own defense, her lawyers managed to undo some of the damage to her reputation done by the prosecutor.

specifically by portraying her as a committed mother and a spiritual woman who worked hard to provide a good life to her kids and a private Christian school education for her oldest daughters.

Wow. That was all true. All right. Cuz one thing she did do is work really hard for her children.

Yeah. Most important to the defense was to refute the already questionable physical evidence in the case that supposedly implicated Emma and John Eckle. During cross-examination of the coroner, Clinton went out of his way to point out that the coroner lacked credible medical training. We got one.

Oh, as I was saying, it was rare to find someone that actually had the good. Yeah. And he also lacked experience. And they called their own medical expert, Dr. John Carne, a professor of surgery at the New York Medical College.

I feel like I believe him. I believe him. Unlike the coroner who admitted on the stand that he knew little about surgery. Carnean had extensive extensive experience with the types of wounds sustained by Berdell during the attack and he told the jury that not only would Harvey's killer have needed considerable strength, but Carnean also believed based on his observation of the blood spatter at the crime scene that the killer was right-handed.

Yeah. So, I wonder when that came up too. On May 9th, the judge and this was later like this was during the rebuttal phase. So, this was way later. No, I mean I wonder when it came up that like the killer was left-handed after they found out that Emma was a lefty or

Oh, yeah. You know what I mean? Like on May 9th, the judge allotted 4 hours for the prosecution and the defense to make their closing arguments and both sides used about like half their time before excusing the jury to deliberate. Most in the courtroom expected a long wait before the verdict was returned because it's pretty messy.

Yeah. But the jury returned just 30 minutes later and they delivered a verdict of not guilty.

[ __ ] In the end, the lack of evidence and heavy reliance on vague witness testimony along with the considerable rumors of Berdell's cruelty and amorality.

Yeah. Proved too much for the jury to overlook and they simply couldn't find Emma guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

I feel like the biggest thing would be that medical expert completely refuting everything that the other ones said. That would lead like so much room for

and there's no real evidence tying her directly to it. Yeah. No, not at all. So, with Emma acquitted of the murder, she and her daughters were now free to return to 31 Bond Street pending the pending the outcome of the matter of Berdell's estate

before the surrogate court. And also, Emma's a quiddle automatically resulted in the charges against John Eckl being dropped. And so, he too was free to go.

Nice. Now, Emma's a quiddle resolved the criminal charges against her, but there was still the unresolved matter of, like you just said, Harvey's estate,

right? And she maintained that as his wife, she was entitled. At the time, marriages were documented by the church. And although Emma had a document signed by Reverend Marine, the Berdell family argued that the document was a forgery and Harvey would have never married Emma.

Rude. Further complicating matters for Emma was the existence of minor children in the Berdell family, giving the court an additional reason to sympathize with the Bells.

In light of her acquitt, her defense team did their best to portray her in the most sympathetic way they could, painting a picture of a woman now twice widowed whose reputation had been dragged through the mud by a vindictive prosecutor. This, they hope, was going to win them sympathy for the surrogate court and give them cause to overlook the contradictions in Emma's timeline of events. Okay. But never one to pin all her hopes on one strategy, Emma began concocting a new scheme while still locked up in the tombs prior to the her quiddle. According to her affidavit signed by Emma's personal physician, Dr.

Samuel Catelyn, quote, whilst in prison, she told me that she was with child. I have no recollection of any positive statement from her that she was with child by the late Harvey Berdell, but that was my inference from our conversation.

So, she's Pger's. sheers or that's what she's saying. I was going to say maybe closing arguments in the estate case were given at the end of June and the surrogate um was scheduled to deliver his decision in August. So in the meantime, Emma played up the pregnancy charade.

Mhm. Claiming she was due to deliver Harvey's baby in early August. Okay. Given that she hadn't mentioned the pregnancy before, everyone involved in the case immediately was like, "Excuse me?" like immediate suspicion when Emma did indeed produce a baby in early August, claiming he was the heir to the Berdell estate.

Where the [ __ ] did she find a baby if it wasn't hers? As Harvey Berdell's widow, Emma would have been entitled to a portion of the estate. However, as the mother of Harvey's only heir, she would have access to the entire thing.

Oh my god, where did she find this baby child? The suspicious claims of a newly produced heir were themselves a reason to suspect fraud. But for Oki Hall, our guy over there with the sweat guy,

so sweaty, who had been receiving intense criticism for handling his handling of the murder trial, the claim was a new opportunity to salvage his reputation.

Oh, in fact, when Hall learned that Emma had approached Dr. David Ool, one of the doctors who testified for the defense in the criminal trial and asked for help in procuring a suitable heir. He saw the perfect opportunity to lay a trap for Emma.

Oh my god. Cuz he was like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. You went trying to find a baby to pass offices."

Paul told the doctor to return to Emma and agree to help get a baby in exchange for $1,000.

Hello. Get a baby. and to tell Emma that he had located a baby whose mother had been quote summoned west by her newly rich husband and she couldn't take the child with her.

Okay. In reality, Hall had simply p procured a baby from the indigent ward at Belleview Hospital. [gasps]

Oh, and the indigent means like poor. Yeah. Like without a momy, like an orphanage.

And this Belleview Hospital is obviously like a mental health facility. Um, with the help of his longtime friend and hospital staff member, Dr. Montagy.

Uhhuh. Emma's attempts to use pregnancy to fraudulently access Harvey's estate.

Emma's attempt to procure a baby to procure a fake required a little bit of theater, but they were nothing compared to the scheme Hall concocted to catch her in that lie.

This is so fun. On August 3rd, Dr. went to the house on Bond Street and was followed by a set of monogrammed uh luggage made specifically for the roose in order to convince Emma the baby had come from a wellto-do family.

He got luggage for this show. So, he had super fancy luggage with him. He goes there, he's like, "Look, this is a fancy a fancy baby that borrow."

Uh later that evening, officers waited outside the residence on Bond Street. And when Emma emerged carrying what they believed to be the baby, they followed her to a residence in the Bowery.

Huh. I stayed there. Where they waited outside and listened as Emma moaned in a theatrical rec uh recreation of Giving birth.

My jaws on the floor. Yeah. When she emerged. Giving birth at the bowy. Yeah. Just giving birth at the bowy. When she emerged, she was again carrying the baby. This time in a basket the officers recognized as the one created for the scheme by the prosecutor's office. it right now.

Then they followed her back to the house on Bond Street and waited for further instructions. Inside the house, Dr. had helped Emma set the scene to look as though it was the home of somebody who just given birth.

What? Including the creation of fake afterbirth prepared with lamb's blood. Blink blink.

I told you this gets [ __ ] crazy. Fake afterbirth. Yeah. Okay. lamb's blood. I'm not following any of that up with any kind of

They also covered a set of sheets with some of the blood and got a placenta. These [ __ ] not only procured a baby, but they procured a placenta.

Yeah. Where the [ __ ] did they get a Was it a human placenta? That I don't know, but they got a placenta.

Hello. Which which they put in the cupboard for safekeeping. Why? Oh, yeah. I just keep my placenta in the cupboard. [snorts] Oh, sure. Let me just go grab some placenta out of my placenta cupboard. What? [snorts] Basically, if anyone had been suspicious of the pregnancy story, it seemed like Emma had thought of everything she could to convince placenta. The only way me and Drew call placenta placenta. So, whenever we have palenta in the fridge, I'm like, "Oh, there's placenta in the fridge. Placenta in the fridge.

I guess I should put it in the cabinet." Well, what's funny is like Emma thought of everything that she could to convince somebody she had given birth. But what she didn't plan on was how Oki Hall, our guy over there, Abraham Oki Hall, Sweaty McGee,

was ready for [ __ ] revenge. Like, she did not plan on how far he would go. He said, "Don't [ __ ] with my name."

He said no. Later that evening, officers raided the house on Bond Street and found the baby lying beside Emma, who appeared to be genuinely quite ill, in her bed. At first, she protested, telling the officers that the baby was hers and showing them the the evidence of its birth. But the story quickly fell apart when Emma was informed that the baby had been marked with lunar costic under its arms and and behind its ears.

Uh that's like silver nitrate. And its navl had been tied with a particular string, meaning it could be easily identified as the baby taken from Belleview the previous day.

They just like tied a string around its belly. Yeah. Like cuz when you cut the umbilical cord

Yeah. There's like now they put a little like clamp thing on it. The that part of the belly button falls off.

Yeah. Yeah. Eventually they tied that with a string like a particular string so they would know.

[ __ ] That's cool. Yeah. They made sure like they weren't going to [ __ ] this up that it couldn't be

nothing would slip through as like no this is my baby and you can't prove it. They were like oh no we can prove it in several ways.

I didn't know that that was a clamp. I thought that was a piece of the umbilical cord.

Yeah, it Well, it is. Oh, but it like there's a little like they I didn't know they

holding it there. Then it falls off. And that's why like cuz they basically like, you know,

your belly button like closes up. Cuts the umbilical cord and there's a little bit sticking out, they clamp it

and then that part that's sticking out will fall off. That's your belly button.

I didn't even know they clamped it. Yeah. It's like a little uh I don't know how to describe it. I feel like it's a little plastic clamp kind of thing.

That's crazy. Baby belly buttons are so gross. It's crazy. Um, but they identified it as the baby that was taken from Belleview.

Paul even went so far as to produce the baby's real mother, who just a few months later would capitalize on her child's notoriety by cutting a deal to exhibit the child at PT Barnum's Museum in Manhattan.

Guys, we have to stop doing this to babies. We do have to stop putting them in exhibits in exhibits 2025. I mean, that's something that's been a real problem is babies being exhibited in circus museums.

Something I'll always stand out against. Like, we have to stop. We have to stop this. It's a real problem to this.

The [ __ ] It's an epidemic. It is. The amount of circus museums that are popping up.

That's what my next babies. That's what my next charity dinner will be for. That's how I'm going to get on the Real Housewives. My cause that I'm against is mothers putting babies in museums.

Not just museums, circus museums. Stop putting your babies in circus museum. This is serious.

Dig into your wallets. Don't you want this to I just create like a Ponzi scheme?

This is so serious. Donate today. Donate today. Only you can stop babies from being exhibited in PTO Museum.

I just send people random pictures throughout the year. I'm like, donate again to stop the babies. This is

This is the baby you saved from being in a circus museum. He's now eight and out of the circus museums for six years. Oh,

what the [ __ ] are we even talking about? Was taken into custody and she was charged with fraud.

Like, I'll be if I do that fraudulence. But Henry Clinton quickly got the charges dismissed when he pointed out the lengths that the prosecutor's office had gone to like your client went to.

It's pretty bad on both sides. People tighten her cabinet. Nevertheless, Emma's scheme had been exposed and her reputation completely ruined.

Yeah. Tagged. Both of which had a seriously negative effect on the surrogate court's decision in the estate case.

Yeah. Clinton did his best to salvage what he could, arguing that the pregnancy and the baby shouldn't influence the claim of widows benefits being considered by a court. But like it should because she was trying to fake an heir to get the entire thing. It's also like if it shouldn't matter, then why the [ __ ] did she go to all that trouble? like she's the one that kind of made this a thing.

And on August 24th, Surrogate Bradford delivered his decision, ruling against Emma Cunningham.

That's probably good. Although she managed to avoid prosecution for the baby scheme, Emma's reputation was completely [ __ ]

Yeah, she stole a baby. Shortly after the cases had been resolved, Henry Clinton gave an interview to the press in which he said, "The public career of Mrs. Cunningham Berdell began with the most startling and thrilling tragedy. It ended in thoroughly disgusting low comedy.

Yeah, pretty much. Out of money and thoroughly disgraced, Emma left New York and headed to California where she eventually remarried. Emma did return to New York in 1887 and lived with a cousin before dying a year later.

Emma, the murder of Harvey Berdell remains unsolved. Does it? And given the number of people with ill will towards him, the pool of suspects could have been quite large. That's

that's true. She is very a good suspect, but that doesn't mean that there's not others

they did say. I mean, I'm not saying she I don't know whether she was like known as being having like considerable strength or not.

Yeah. Because the doctor did say it would take a considerably strong person. I also know that rage and pent up aggression can make you strong in the moment.

Yeah. Like adrenaline. She's also a left-handed person and the doctor said it was right-handed, but the other doctor said left-handed. So, it's all too much confusion here.

Wishwashy. Uh but the prosecutor's office chose to follow the press and public in their pursuit against Emma Cunningham and that's why she was the number one suspect.

Right. And basically they kind of just went with the narrative of she's a greedy woman scorned by her equally amoral lover.

Yeah. Which is true. Yeah. You know, like that is the way it is, but doesn't make you a murderer. It's true that Emma had hoped that the whole thing with Harvey was going to return her to a life of wealth and status, but she also just like wanted his love and attention. She was just looking to have a husband. Yeah.

Fortunately for Emma, while she may not have been successful at getting either of those things, but others helped her achieve one small part of her goal in death. In 2007, historian and author Benjamin Feldman partnered with the Greenwood Cemetery, where Harvey and Emma are buried, to erect two markers side by side, one representing Harvey and the other Emma.

Do you think either of them would have wanted that? That's what I wonder. Probably not.

I wonder if Emma would have liked the the facade of it cuz she liked the idea that she was a wife,

right? Didn't necessarily like, you know, he wasn't great. Yeah. I don't think he would have wanted that. I think he would have as much of a scoundrel as he was. Like

that's kind of shitty. Did you do that? You know, just because his family probably didn't want that.

No, it's interesting though. Yeah. What an ending. I know. So now they just have sidebyside markers.

Damn, that's real weird. Emma Cunningham and the murder of Harvey Berdell. You delivered on the twists and the turns.

I told you it's a crazy one. That was something. People were so scandalous in the 1800s. They were scoundrely and scandaly and

yell about the the validity of old timey cases, my friend. Yeah, as you should.

And I'll keep proving that they're good time and time again and that they have cane sold.

Yeah, can parasol parasol stores and placenta cabinets. Yeah, placenta cabinets.

Where else are you going to find a placenta cabinet? Exactly. And babies being exhibited in PT Barnum Circus Museum.

You won't find that around here. We'll find that because we're going to start a petition against it.

Stopping it. Yeah. Well, with all that being said, we hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it weird, but not so weird that you keep putting the babies in the circus museums and you don't donate to help. Stop it. Stop the madness. Stop those babies from being exhibited in PT Bonham Circus Museum.

Please. This is the foundation against babies being exhibited in PT Barnum Circus Museum. We're workshopping today.

It'll get snappier.

Questions about this episode

What is discussed in "Episode 733: Emma Cunningham and the Murder of Harvey Burdell"?

In order: 0:00 Nespresso, Benjamin Feldman, Emma Augusta Hemstead, Emma Cunningham; 10:00 Harvey Berdell, Saratoga Springs; 20:00 Saratoga Springs; 30:00 George Snodgrass, John Eckle, Clyde and Black, Harvey Berdell; 40:00 Emma Cunningham, George Snodgrass, John Eckle, Harvey Berdell; 50:00 Harvey Berdell, Belleview Hospital, Dr. Samuel Catelyn, John Eckle; 1:00:00 Emma Cunningham, Harvey Berdell, Benjamin Feldman, Greenwood Cemetery.

What is mentioned in this Morbid | Podcast episode?

20 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Harvey Berdell, Emma Cunningham, John Eckle, George Snodgrass, Nespresso, Benjamin Feldman. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "Episode 733: Emma Cunningham and the Murder of Harvey Burdell"?

The episode runs 1 h 10 min; the transcript is about 13,573 words in 396 timestamped sections.

More from Morbid | Podcast

About this transcript: the episode's spoken words as captioned on YouTube, split into timestamped sections. Reclip.Me locates every person, work and idea in the text, keeps the time it is first named, and quotes the words around it verbatim. Last updated January 24, 2026.