Transcript

Episode 753: The “Hitman” Murders

From Morbid | Podcast · Episode page · Watch on YouTube

· 1 h 8 min · 13,966 words · 393 timestamped sections

This is the full, timestamped transcript of "Episode 753: The “Hitman” Murders", an episode of Morbid | Podcast published February 2, 2026 (1 h 8 min, about 13,966 words). It mentions 28 people, works and ideas, including Lawrence Horn, Millie Horn, James Perry, Janice Saunders, Hitman: A Technical Manual for Independent Contractors.

What this episode is about

The main topic revolves around the hosts discussing their recent experiences, including attending a concert and highlighting the importance of finding joy in everyday life amidst challenges. They also touch on personal insights regarding social interactions, memory, and the struggles associated with managing ADHD, emphasizing the need for self-care and connection with others.

Key takeaways

  • Finding joy is essential; even the morbid need their cups filled to battle life's absurdities.
  • Meeting fans at concerts is the ultimate flex; it's like turning your podcast into a ghostly cult.
  • Concerts without phones foster intimacy—witnessing genuine moments beats scrolling through a screen any day.
  • When musicians sweat bullets, you know they're giving it their all; hot venues ignite passionate performances.
  • Winter's chill is a welcome reprieve from summer's sweat—embracing the cold is a valid survival strategy.

Who speaks in this episode?

What is discussed, and when

  1. – 10:00: Fantasma, Ghost, Center Stage, The Butcher and the Ren
  2. – 20:00: Mottown Records, Detroit, Lawrence Horn, Millie Horn
  3. – 30:00: Lawrence Horn, Children's Hospital, Millie Horn, Hot Wax Records
  4. – 40:00: Janice Saunders, Lawrence Horn, Millie Horn, Mottown Records
  5. – 50:00: James Perry, Detroit, Lawrence Horn, Hitman: A Technical Manual for Independent Contractors
  6. – 1:00:00: James Perry, Lawrence Horn, Tiffany Horn, Detroit
  7. – 1:07:30: James Perry, Lawrence Horn, Janice Saunders, Palladen Press

Notable quotes from "Episode 753: The “Hitman” Murders"

  • To be a better parent, of course. so just like try to do that. But yeah, I got to go to the Ghost concert in Connecticut and it was as magical as it always is.
    about Ghost · at
  • You can grab The Butcher and the Ren and the Butcher Game, too, if you want to give it a try. There's audio books for those two. There will be an audio book for the third one.
    about The Butcher and the Ren · at
  • Yeah. So in the 1960s and 70s, Lawrence Horn worked as an audio engineer for some of the music industry's biggest record labels like Mottown Records and Hot Wax Records.
    about Lawrence Horn · at
  • Damn. Now, in ' 72, Lawrence met Millie Marie, who was a flight attendant with American Airlines, and he was immediately infatuated with her.
    about Millie Horn · at
  • Unknown whether or not Janice ever saw her killer. He stood several feet away from her and opened fire, striking her twice in the head and once through her eye socket. God, that bullet penetrated her brain, which killed her instantly.
    about Janice Saunders · at
  • Yeah. So almost immediately, one registration jumped out at him. Around midnight on the night of the murders, a man named James Perry checked into the Days in Rockville…
    about James Perry · at
  • According to the sales rep, the titles were How to Make Disposable Silencers and Hitman: A Technical Manual for Independent Contractors.
    about Hitman: A Technical Manual for Independent Contractors · at
  • Tiffany was more satisfied with the outcome. She said, I'm just glad we got a guilty verdict. Not only were my mother and my brother and Janice killed, but my family was destroyed. I hope when.
    about Tiffany Horn · at

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

  • Lawrence Horn — Person · Primary perpetrator (alleged/convicted) in case narrative · 9 mentions · first at
    Central figure in the 'Hitman murders' story; ex-husband of Millie Horn and convicted of arranging the killings via James Perry.
  • Millie Horn — Person · Primary victim in case narrative · 3 mentions · first at
    Murder victim; ex-wife of Lawrence Horn and mother of Tiffany and twins Trevor/Tamielle; her death is central to motive and investigation.
  • James Perry — Person · Hitman/contract killer (convicted) in case narrative · 11 mentions · first at
    Identified via hotel registration and phone records; convicted of carrying out the murders allegedly commissioned by Lawrence Horn.
  • Janice Saunders — Person · Victim; caregiver/nurse in case narrative · 4 mentions · first at
    Overnight nurse hired to care for Trevor Horn; murdered during the attack and central to the tragedy and later civil suit context.
  • Tiffany Horn — Person · Key witness/family member in case narrative · 1 mention · first at
    Daughter of Lawrence and Millie; provides crucial testimony about Lawrence's questions and statements regarding Trevor.
  • Emily Henry — Person · Referenced expert · 1 mention · first at
    Author mentioned by the hosts.
    I'm reading a lot of Emily Henry. I think she's [ __ ] great.
  • Rodney Smalla — Person · Referenced author/source · 1 mention · first at
    Cited as an author whose book is used as a source for details about Lawrence and Millie's marriage and trial context.
    So, they dated briefly and in 1973, they got married, but according to author Rodney Smalla, whose book we'll link in the show notes, he said, Virtually from the start, the marriage was a roller coaster,.

Books & papers

  • Hitman: A Technical Manual for Independent Contractors — Book · Referenced work · 1 mention · first at
    Key evidence in the case, used by the hitman to commit the murders.
  • The Butcher and the Ren — Book · Primary recommendation · 1 mention · first at
    Book by Elena mentioned in the podcast.
  • How to Make Disposable Silencers — Book · Referenced work · 1 mention · first at
    Another book ordered by James Perry, related to the murders.
    According to the sales rep, the titles were How to Make Disposable Silencers and Hitman: A Technical Manual for Independent Contractors.
  • Fantasma — Book · Primary recommendation · 2 mentions · first at
    Book recommended by the hosts.
    And also, again, I got to shout out [ __ ] Fantasma, the book I'm reading right now. So fun.

Companies & orgs

  • Mottown Records — Company · Business focus · 4 mentions · first at
    Lawrence Horn's former employer, significant in his background.
    Yeah. So in the 1960s and 70s, Lawrence Horn worked as an audio engineer for some of the music industry's biggest record labels like Mottown Records and Hot Wax Records.
  • Ghost — Company · Business focus · 2 mentions · first at
    Band mentioned in the podcast, significant to the hosts.
  • Palladen Press — Company · Case study · 2 mentions · first at
    Publisher of the Hitman manual, involved in legal action post-murders.
    And it took a few tries to finally get a hit. But a company called Palladen Press in Colorado confirmed that James Perry had ordered two books from them in 1992.
  • Children's Hospital — Company · Setting · 3 mentions · first at
    Location where Trevor Horn suffered medical malpractice.
    Just one more incredible strain on the relationship. But in 1985, things turned from bad to worse. During a stay at Children's Hospital in DC that September, Trevor's breathing tube accidentally came out.
  • Hot Wax Records — Company · Business focus · 2 mentions · first at
    Another record label Lawrence Horn worked for.
    Yeah. So in the 1960s and 70s, Lawrence Horn worked as an audio engineer for some of the music industry's biggest record labels like Mottown Records and Hot Wax Records.
  • Martha and the Vandellas — Company · Business focus · 1 mention · first at
    Famous music group Lawrence Horn worked with.
    So during the golden age of like funk and R&B, his name appeared in the credits of some of the era's biggest hits like the Temptations. My girl, my girl, my girl, my girl talking about my girl. My girl.
  • Invictus Records — Company · Business focus · 1 mention · first at
    Subsidiary of Hot Wax Records where Lawrence Horn worked.
    And their own company was going to be Hot Wax Records and then its subsidiary was going to be Invictus Records.
  • Freda Payne — Company · Business focus · 1 mention · first at
    Singer Lawrence Horn worked with at Invictus Records.
    But they did still find success with a string of singles and records by singers like Freda Payne and the legendary funk group Parliament.
  • Parliament — Company · Business focus · 1 mention · first at
    Funk group Lawrence Horn worked with at Invictus Records.
    But they did still find success with a string of singles and records by singers like Freda Payne and the legendary funk group Parliament.
  • Montgomery College — Company · Setting · 1 mention · first at
    Janice Saunders' alma mater, where she earned her nursing degree.
    38-year-old Janice Saunders, and that was to help care for Trevor. Obviously, Janice graduated from Montgomery College with a nursing degree in 1983, and she had been working…

Places & events

  • Detroit — Place · Setting · 7 mentions · first at
    Birthplace of Lawrence Horn and location of Mottown Records.
    So, when he returned home in the early 60s, Detroit had become one of the hottest cities in America. The auto industry provided hundreds of thousands of well-paying jobs, and black workers at this time couldn't really expect a.
  • Connecticut — Place · Setting · 1 mention · first at
    Location of the Ghost concert mentioned.
    To be a better parent, of course. so just like try to do that. But yeah, I got to go to the Ghost concert in Connecticut and it was as magical as it always is.
  • Mohegan Sun — Place · Setting · 1 mention · first at
    Concert venue mentioned in the podcast.
    I saw Stevie Nicks there and I felt like we were best friends because I was so intimate.
  • USS Lake Champlain — Place · Setting · 1 mention · first at
    Ship where Lawrence Horn served in the Navy.
    In 1958, Lawrence did a brief stint in the Navy, and that's where he actually trained in radio communications, and he got experience working as a radio man on the aircraft carrier, the USS Lake Champlain. Yeah.

Media & podcasts

  • Center Stage — Media · Referenced work · 3 mentions · first at
    Movie mentioned in the podcast.
    Why is Center Stage suddenly It's It's weird when that happens a lot. It like locks up like that.

Sponsors

  • Barnes & Noble — Company · Sponsor · 1 mention · first at
    Retailer mentioned for selling signed copies of Elena's book.
    Barnes & Noble has exclusive signed copies. I'm currently signing a ton of them. So, I saw them at your front door.
  • SiriusXM — Company · Sponsor · 1 mention · first at
    Mentioned in passing in the podcast.
    Ghost, shout out to Jordan nighttime podcast.

Full transcript with timestamps

Hey weirdos. I'm Elena. I'm Ash. And this is Morbid. Morbido in the house. Morbid.

What the [ __ ] is up, Kyle? So much is up. So much is up. In fact, so much is up. Uh, but you know what? There was a brief reprieve of joy.

There you go. Because I got to go to the ghost. Like you said, it's important to experience joy right now.

It is. You need enjoy the things that make you happy. You're allowed to. And it will keep us all

sane so that we can fight fight against the machine. You need it. You need to a little bit of your cup filled or you're going to be running on empty. It's the same as parenting. You need to fill your own cup to be a better parent,

of course. Uh, so just like try to do that. But yeah, I got to go to the Ghost concert in Connecticut and it was as magical as it always is.

I love that. And I got to meet some of you and you were awesome. Shout out to Deb and Bonnie and Chelsea.

Liz, look at you. I I said she's famously bad at remembering names. I will forget some and it has nothing to do with the importance of the person.

Of course not. I am just like my brain doesn't work this way and I will as I'm talking to the person forget the name they just told me

because I'm so I'm so focused on having a conversation for me is like a lot I think you have ADHD.

Yeah. There's a lot happening in here like in this brain. So like I like there's a lot going on that makes it

different. So, I'm so concentrated on like the conversation aspect and like be a normal human,

ask questions, respond correctly that I forget the name. Nobody wants you to be a normal human.

And and that for that I'm grateful because I'm not and it's really hard to be and sometimes I struggle.

So, just be cool. Don't be all uncool. Well, that I was like, you know what? Don't forget the name because you're concentrating on trying to like become a real human. So I said, "Remember these names because they were cool people and they were cool people. You were cool people." And it was really fun to see you. And I love seeing people at ghost concerts that listen to Morbid because it's such like a

little snuggly little family feeling at those concerts that it just like I don't know. It was fun. And I think Deb told me like the Deb that I met.

Oh yeah. Not Debb. Not Dubdub. Although I did bring Debb to her first Ghost concert. It was pretty amazing.

Obviously like I like concerts. I agree. We talked about this where they lock up your phones. It's just nice to not have to see a million phones in here.

But I so wish that you could have gotten a little bit of video at of Deb at the concert. Yes.

Yeah. She loved it. We got a convert. Uh but Deb the not Deb Debb who I met said that she found morbid through ghost.

Wow. So the other way around. Oh [ __ ] which I my biggest flex in life is when somebody says

I heard about Ghost from your podcast like that is becoming a doortodoor missionary for Ghost is really great

now it's going both ways but now that it went the other way I was like whoa we've reached a new apex cuz they said they heard the Tobias episode like one of the interviews and were like I'm going to listen to this

level I was like wow flex okay I like it let's go um it was great though she gave me a bracelet that says rats Oh, it's like the ERA store.

Yep. Era store. Oh, they had a bracelet making station in the VIP area. But like a gothy god bracelet making station.

Did you make a bracelet? I did. And then I broke it accidentally. Uh cuz I'm not that crappy.

It was just so full of joy. It was a exploded. It was honestly it's the most joyful time.

Um they were great. Everybody was great. Shout out to all of them and shout out to their team for always hooking us up with

I know their team is very The seats were [ __ ] amazing. I felt so like grateful. I was like, "Shit, I just get to be here."

So, Moheaggan Sun is the randomst concert venue in my opinion, but it's such a good concert venue. It is.

I saw Stevie Nicks there and I felt like we were best friends because I was so intimate.

It's very intimate no matter where you're sitting. Really? Yeah, it really is. And shout out to everybody there and especially the band because I was like,

it was 400° in that place. It was so [ __ ] hot. Well, cuz it's like all enclosed and then Ghost does like pirate. There was pirate

fire at time, but you could see and he I think Tobias mentioned it like several times like, "Holy [ __ ] I'm hot." Like it

because he also has like all the like prosthetics on his face, too. Well, and he doesn't have prosthetics anymore, but he has that mask. And I think it's

on your face. The costume changes are a lot of clothing. Yeah, I felt like the the Nameless Ghouls are all wearing like full body suits. Oh my god.

And I was like I felt so bad and they're just moving a lot and doing a lot. So yeah, it's exerting like a lot of energy.

I was sweating and I know everybody else was. So I can't imagine how they felt. But they've [ __ ] killed it.

That's one thing I love about winter so much. Every time I complain about being cold, I'm like, "Oh, I'm not sweating though.

I'm not sweating. I'm not sweating. I hate being hot." Oh, it's the worst feeling in the world.

But it was great. It was a great time. Highly recommend it. Hey, if you can get to one, I think they're in like Canada now, though.

So, Canada. I say that like no one's in Canada. Like, I think they're in Canada now, so you can't go.

People in fact are leaving here and going there. So, if you're in Canada, go if you can.

It's a great time. I was trying to think of something Canadian to say about like going to Ghost but

hey, there you go. Always, you know, we love Canada. Go to Ghost. We love Canadians.

Ghost, you know, shout out to Jordan nighttime podcast. Sorry, all the Canadians. We love famous uh famous famous teacher of uh

history at Sunnydale. Yep. We love Johnny and Tyler. That's spooky. Listen to that spooky.

Yeah, Canadians are great. I love that. What else do we have? I thought we had something else to say.

I haven't been doing a lot lately. The only thing that I have to offer you today is that I put my laptop on my lap this morning and I said, "What the [ __ ] is that lump on my leg?" And I promptly flipped over my laptop and found a crushed baby bell cheese wrapper on the bottom of my laptop. And I looked up at Alina and I said, "I'm disgusting." And I said, "I'm a peanut butter baby." It was just I don't have a

How did it like become one with my computer like that? It was nuts. I was like, "You are reckless."

No, it really was. One thing about me, I'm a very like don't don't think I'm gross cuz I don't get it twisted. I'm a very clean person at my house. Like my home is very tidy.

Yeah. Here, not at all. This couch that I'm sitting at. Look at this. There's just [ __ ] everywhere. Like

what is What are these rogue napkins? Why is a phone in the middle of the cushion seats? Chapstick. Just a random package of chapstick.

We all need that right now. And then don't even look in this corner next to me. This empty glass from 3 days ago. Don't worry, it was just filled with water. But what the [ __ ] What is wrong with me?

It's pretty intense. I don't I don't live here. So, yeah. You know, I do, but not in this room.

I don't live in this room. I would respect your space in a home way. It's true. Yeah. You know, we all It's It's just one of those things, you know.

It is. If you're looking for more joy, maybe you could pre-order my book. Oh, more joy. More joy. More literacy. More

more literacy. [ __ ] work. Um, oh, do do it. Butcherleacy.com. Pre-order it. It's coming out August 11th. It's the third one in the series. You can grab The Butcher and the Ren and the Butcher Game, too, if you want to give it a try. There's audio books for those two. There will be an audio book for the third one.

Barnes & Noble has signed versions. Barnes & Noble has exclusive signed copies. I'm currently signing a ton of them. So,

I saw them at your front door. There's big boxes of of sheets to sign. So, I'm I'm

You better start rolling those wrists out. And I'll, you know, I'll sign as many books as I can. So, if you want those signed copy copies, guys, go get them from Barnes & Noble. And if they run out,

she'll probably do more. Maybe I'll sign some more, but you got to get them to run out first.

Here's the thing. Me and Mikey are always yelling at Alina cuz we're always like, "You put so much on your plate anytime signed editions run out." And they're like, "Do you want to do 2,000 more?" She's like, "Yeah, that's no problem." Like, you have to sign all of those. Yeah,

I respect the game. I respect the always anytime. So, yeah, go do that because it's great and it's fun and it's fictional.

It is fictional. So, lose yourself in a fictional world. And also, again, I got to shout out um [ __ ] Fantasma, the book I'm reading right now. So fun.

Really, I'm telling you guys, read it. It's a fun book. It's getting me into like a new genre. I think

I'm in a place of new genre, but we're in very different places of new genre. Mine's still horror related.

Mine's not at all. I'm fully in a romance era right now. I'm reading a lot of that for you.

I'm reading a lot of Emily Henry. I think she's [ __ ] great. Hey, look at that. Shout out to Emily Henry.

I'm reading Happy Place right now. It's a little spicy. Oh, there you go. I've never been a spicy book reader in my life.

I love that for you. Fantasma is very spicy. So, little dark dark spice. Yeah, it's like dark romanticy horror adjacent. Fun.

Yeah, I like that. Yeah. I'm all over the place in my reading journey, but it's fun.

Um, one more very quick thing before we move on. I need to tell you that you you did something weird when you mentioned Center Stage.

Oh, yeah. Um, on The Pit, I think it's episode 3, which I've been telling Elena to watch The Pit. It's so good, but she has kids, so it's hard to watch shows.

I know. It's just one It's on the list. It's also a very intense show to watch at night, and I understand that you don't you're not like flying into it.

Yeah. Um, one of the actresses from Center Stage was like a side character. What the [ __ ] for literally like the briefest moment.

What? Yeah. Uh I was listening to Se this morning and Carrie was talking about it. Why did Center Stage suddenly become Who is it? Jod in Center Stage.

Jodie. Yeah. She's the main character. Yeah. I haven't seen Center years. So what's the actress? Jod Center Stage. What's her Amanda Schill or Yeah. Sh. She was just randomly in the pit. Holy [ __ ] Like a super quick appearance.

That's so weird. And it was it probably was right around the time that you said you watched it because it was last week's episode.

Oh my god, that's really weird. Isn't that bizarre? Yeah. Yeah. I was when I listened to Sup this morning, I was like, "Oh my god, I have to tell Alena."

Why is Center Stage suddenly It's It's weird when that happens a lot. It like locks up like that.

It makes you feel like life is a simulation. It does feel like that a lot because I'm like, "What the [ __ ] Center Stage."

Yeah. Again, I highly recommend watching those old ass movies from the 90s and early as it early in your mornings. while lighting candles.

I walked in this morning and she was watching Scream. Yeah, I had Scream on while I was like trying to write a write a chapter.

Let's go in something. What? Yeah, that's all she can say. I said elaborate. Except I know you can't.

Um, one more thing before we get into the story. [ __ ] ice. Abolish ice. We hate ice. Thank you so much.

Um, and yeah. Um, stop defending them like you're they're your mom. Yeah, it's weird.

Uh, so so that that's just how we feel. Thank you. And it's our podcast so we can say it. So yeah. So [ __ ] Ice. Let's go.

Let's go. So [ __ ] real ice because it's really icy here as well. I Oh my god. I didn't even tell you. It was so embarrassing. I ate [ __ ] in my driveway the other day. I have a booty bruise. I went down hard on my body. Like cuz it was There was You fall often in the winter,

[ __ ] I feel like every winter you fall. [ __ ] take out in the winter. I fall often. I fall. I fell the other day in my little garden.

I'm always worried for you in the winter. It's okay. I'm going to be one of those old people that they're like, "Yeah, she just fell." Like, she wasn't drunk. She wasn't on a substance.

I'm going to have to keep a close eye on you when you're old. I know. I'm going to get a walker as soon as I turn 60, maybe 50.

We're going to have to watch those hips. Yeah. Well, this one this one was just like it was going to it could have happened to anybody, really.

Cuz there was ice underneath the snow. Oh, that [ __ ] me up every time. I went to walk around the side of the car. That's the other thing. I could have hit my dome on the back of the car, but I was all right.

Oh, I'm glad you lived through it. One thing about me, I [ __ ] love when other people fall, but I also love when I fall, so it works out.

You can appreciate it. So, yes, [ __ ] all kinds of ice, but specifically the organization.

All right, so we're actually This is an interesting case that I hadn't heard of before. It was obviously a Dave suggestion. And

Dave, this is a very devastating case, obviously, cuz it's morbid. Yes. Um, but it's just interesting that I hadn't heard about this before cuz it's kind of like big time a little bit.

Big time. It's like medium time a little bit. Medium time. Okay. It just, you know, we'll get there. So, we're going to be talking about the Hitman murders which involve Lawrence and Millie Horn.

Okay. Who you might not know, but you'll be shocked that you don't know them, maybe.

Yeah. So in the 1960s and 70s, Lawrence Horn worked as an audio engineer for some of the music industry's biggest record labels like Mottown Records and Hot Wax Records.

Wow. Which is like huge. Yeah. Mottown Records was massive. Damn. So during the golden age of like funk and R&B, his name appeared in the credits of some of the era's biggest hits like the Temptations. My girl,

my girl, my girl, my girl talking about my girl. My girl. Oh, we we just paused to sing the entire song. I was just so I was just so tempted to continue on.

It's such a It's such a vibe song. It is. Well, you can thank Lawrence for part of it. He was also um in the credits of Junior Walker in the All-Star Shotgun.

Damn. I'm not familiar with that song. I can't sing that one. Okay. Uh but behind his fame and notoriety, he was hiding a sometimes very volatile personality that few rarely got to see.

Okay, but before we get into that, let's talk about who he was in his earlier life.

Let's go. He was born April 18th, 1940 in Detroit. One of two children born to Pauline Horn. When he was born, his mom was running a modeling school in Detroit, and she worked with a lot of the local performers to develop their musical and dance talents. So, his kind of like like the industry was in his blood. You know what I say this was just like from the jump.

Yeah. Years later, Pauline's daughter, Elaine, would follow in her mother's footsteps, going after a career in dance and eventually traveling with her husband, famous ventriloquist William Tyler, who apparently had a popular act with a dummy named Lester.

I'm interested. Lester the Dummy. Lester the Dummy. Okay. I A ventriloquist act will get me sometimes.

It will get me because it has such a spooky vibe to it. It does. inherently even when it's not spooky.

Yeah. It's just there. Something about it is spooky. And it's also just incredible that people can fully project without moving their mouth.

I don't understand how they do it. I don't either. That's why I think that's what it is. It's like something mysterious and like mystical. Yeah.

And feels like it shouldn't be happening. Yes. All of the above. Correct. Well, after graduating from high school in 1958, Lawrence did a brief stint in the Navy, and that's where he actually trained in radio communications, and he got experience working as a radio man on the aircraft carrier, the USS Lake Champlain. Yeah.

So, when he returned home in the early 60s, Detroit had become one of the hottest cities in America. The auto industry provided hundreds of thousands of well-paying jobs, and black workers at this time couldn't really expect a great wage most places. But in the auto industry, they could expect a nice wage.

Yeah. So, fresh out of the Navy, Lawrence did need a job. But like I said, he came from a family with strong roots in the entertainment industry. So, life on the assembly line and auto plants really wasn't what he was looking for.

Yeah. He was looking to get into the industry. Exactly. But luckily, cars were not the only thing that Detroit had become known for while he was away. as the home of Mottown Records. It had also at this point become a hub for like soul and rhythm and blues singers and for black artists in particular.

So according to Lawrence, he managed to land the job with Mottown Records based on his experience as a DJ on the Champlain where he was known by the moniker LT, the tall cool one, your man with the plan.

That just rolls off the tongue. I said that's suave as [ __ ] That is that is suave as [ __ ]

You got to like tighten it up a little bit, but it's suave. I'll give it. Does it Does it need a little trimming? Maybe. But it honestly sounds great.

You got You kind of have to decide between like the tall cool one and your man with the plan.

Yeah, you can be both those things, but maybe just leave one to the imagination.

Yeah, exactly. What would you What would you pick? Probably you should pick the man with the plan because that's an inner thing that people don't know yet. The tall cool one. I can see that right away.

Yeah, you could give that off. You don't have to tell me that. You give off that energy.

Yeah. If I see a tall cool man, I know that. And as a DJ, the man with the plan, like he's got a plan for this [ __ ] ax that's about to blow your mind apart.

You better get ready. Sit down. So in 1962, Mottown wasn't as huge as it would become in later years. It was actually really just a small recording studio in the garage of company president Barry Gordy.

That's awesome. So Gordy was willing to take a risk on Lawrence at this point. And he also Lawrence got the reference of a friend of his mom. So Gordy hired him as an audio technician at $50 a week, which back then was a good chunk of change.

Yeah. So within 2 years, Mottown Records had become a music industry giant. They moved right out of that garage. They had the Temptations, Martha and the Vandelas, The Supremes, Smoky Robinson.

Jesus. Ever heard of them? A stacked lineup. Truly. And they were all just scoring hit after hit after hit for the label. So, as the label grew, obviously, so did Lawrence Sahorn's bank account and his reputation.

Yeah. In their heyday, there were quote unlimited expense accounts and trips to New York. Barry Gordy, it was the Plaza Hotel, limos, Porsches, Dom Perinan, Perion, I don't know how you say that, and a company card.

Damn, they were living. That sounds lit. They were [ __ ] living. They were filthy rich.

Limos, Porsches, Don Perin. Pinaman. So for Lawrence, who'd grown up the poor son of a modeling instructor and a baker, that success was obviously intoxicating for anybody really.

Anybody could lose themselves in that. Yes. Very much so. So in 1966, this is wild. And I, as soon as I got to this part of the story, I said, I can't wait to see Elena's reaction to this.

So in 1966, he marries Wana Royster, who was a receptionist at Mottown. Cute. In what turned out to be a surprise ceremony, even to the bride, Wana literally had no idea what she had no idea. Lawrence planned the entire ceremony without telling her. And when she came back home and walked into her wreck room, she found herself standing in the middle of her own wedding. Say it. Say it, girl. Now, here I just I'm just thinking of me. Um

I I would not like this. I I'm a control freak. They stress me out in a way I can't describe.

Yeah. Um but I I think a a person with more handle over uh everything about themselves would take this as like a fun this is like his fun personality like doing this.

It's a tossup. And so I'm just not that woman. No, me. I'm not I'm not that woman. But I I wish I was. I wish I could take this. I I wish I was the kind of person that would look at that and be like how fun and fancy free,

but I'm not. No one me. You're a Capricorn. Like on the spectrum. Yeah, very planner.

This would stress me out. Like I'd be like I should have had control of every part of this.

The biggest thing for me would be my outfit because I curate my [ __ ] outfit months ahead of of an event.

She does. And I would not be happy if I just rolled up there in my work wear to my own [ __ ] wedding. Yeah. And like there's certain people that like maybe I wouldn't want to invite that were there or like perhaps the other way around.

I'd like to curate the food. Mhm. I'd like to curate the decor. Basically everything about it should be curated.

Yeah. And I'm a good curator, so I'd be pissed. Yeah, it's true. And And I just like to know what's happening.

Yeah. I don't I don't love a surprise. No. I Well, here I like I can't handle small surprises, but I can't handle a big

surprise wedding. No, that's a big surprise. That's wild. Yeah, a gamble. But it worked out. Talking about Lawrence later, she said he was absolutely fun. Oh, see that she gets it. She gets it. That's what I'm I'm like I that props to her.

Yeah, she said he's a man with a plan. And honestly, she's someone who probably I'm like, good for you because you're probably so much less tightly wound.

Yeah, she's lighter cuz you're just like, let's go. She's breathing as [ __ ] Let life come at you. Let it

Good for her. Although the he might have been fun, that was probably short-lived and it wasn't enough to keep their relationship together because the marriage ended in divorce after just about eight months.

I mean, you it's it's the surprise wedding. Yeah, it's the surprise wedding and probably the volatile personality.

From my point of view, that would not be good. Yeah. No. So two years later in 1968, Lawrence actually left Mottown when it was at its peak and he took a job as an engineer with the legendary Mottown production team Holland Dozier Holland who were splitting with Gordy and starting their own company. A little messy.

Ooh. Um and their own company was going to be Hot Wax Records and then its subsidiary was going to be Invictus Records.

Oh yeah. So, the label was hampered by an ongoing lawsuit between the trio of songwriters and Barry Gordy, who was like, "You can't just leave my [ __ ] [ __ ] and expect that I'm not going to sue you."

Yep. But they did still find uh success with a string of singles and records uh by singers like Freda Payne and the legendary funk group Parliament.

Okay. A lot of that success was due in part at least to the talents of their star engineer Lawrence Horn, who stayed with the record for most of the 70s, actually.

Damn. Now, in ' 72, Lawrence met Millie Marie, who was a flight attendant with American Airlines, and he was immediately infatuated with her.

Oh, yeah. It's the 70s and she's a flight attendant. I mean, what more could you ask for?

That's glam. That's elegana, baby. So, they dated briefly and in 1973, they got married, but according to author Rodney Smalla, whose book we'll link in the show notes, he said, "Virtually from the start, the marriage was a roller coaster,

which is not really what you're looking for in marriage." No, definitely not me. Like a I'd like a steady.

Yeah. I don't like a roller coaster. Steady Eddie. I love a roller coaster. I don't want a marriage roller coaster.

Lawrence recalled the early days of their romance as a freewheel and whirl. Wo.

Which is so that just like it's very 70s. It's so Mottown, too. I'm like, "Wow, write a song about that."

It seemed that even though they had gone through the formality of actually having a wedding and binding themselves together like that, Lawrence did not take their relationship very seriously.

He said it was a lark. It wasn't a love thing. It was more of an arrangement. It was a distraction. It was fun.

Okay. It wasn't a love thing. I was like, marriage should Why'd you bother? Hot take. Marriage should always be a love thing.

Yeah. Like why why did you bother? Like you don't have to get married. You You guys could have had a lark.

You could have You could have had a fun cuz I little arrangement on the side where you just get together when you see each other. That's okay. I mean adults,

right? You don't need to add paperwork into it. That's the thing. I just never understand that.

Don't write up a contract if you're just trying to have an adventure. Like you don't have to get married if you don't want to. That's your prerogative.

Yeah. I just don't I never understand these things. I have no idea. Cuz it seems like a lot of work and paperwork cuz marriage takes a lot of paperwork.

So much paperwork. You have to like your left hand. I don't really take this seriously. It's like then why the [ __ ] did you sign all those papers?

Yeah. You have to You had to go to town hall. Yeah. You had to file like so many more papers. a lot. You have to do admin. It's too much work if you're not totally committed.

Marriage is in fact a lot of admin. Yeah, I never get it. And then if you want to change your name, don't even get me started.

Oh, [ __ ] that. So, regardless of how it all started or why they stayed together in the first place, Millie gave birth to their first daughter, Tiffany, in 1974.

That feels serious. Yeah, it's that's not just a lark. Unfortunately, though, the arrival of a baby didn't do a lot to improve things between them.

Never does. No. In fact, never does. if it's already bad. Yeah, it's going to get worse.

So, with his work also now requiring him to travel more and more often to Los Angeles, Millie was left alone a lot to care for Tiffany. And that can be a lot like in general, but especially as a first time mom. I can't imagine.

Of course, that was obviously a problem in and of itself. But by that time, things had already started to deteriorate between the two of them. And according to Lawrence, they just constantly fought over the least little thing. He said, "Yeah." In 1975, Millie was like, "I am so [ __ ] tired of arguing with you all the time. I'm so tired of you being gone when we're not arguing."

Yeah. So, they separated and she ended up moving to Washington DC to live closer to her sisters. Her she and her sisters were like super super close.

Love that. And when she moved there, Lawrence decided like, I'm going to actually move to LA so I'm not going back and forth all the time. Now, despite the separation, cuz they very much were separated and the distance, Millie and Lawrence, they didn't divorce and they really didn't break up at all. Like, I don't even really know if you would call this a separation or it doesn't look like your typical separ separation, I'll say.

In the 10 years that followed, they got back together, they broke up, they got back together countless times, and they actually even held multiple wedding ceremonies where they renewed their vows.

Oh, man. So like what? This is just a lot. It's messy. It's a lot. So things between them would inevitably fall apart though within a few months or years. They'd separate again for a time, get back together, and the cycle just continued and continued.

Oh, that sounds horrible. It does. Later, Lauren said, "I never knew what to expect from Millie. It was like a roller coaster. It was difficult being in a close personal relationship with her."

You don't have to be. That's the thing. Like that that wasn't required. You did. You guys did bring a child into the world, so you kind of tied yourself together.

Hey, you segueed me perfect to the next part. Oh, hey. In 1984, during one of the periods when they were back together, Millie got pregnant for a second time.

Oh, guys, you got to stop. And in August, she gave birth to twins, Trevor. Twins.

Twins. Holy [ __ ] And it's complicated. She had twins, uh, Trevor and Tamille, 12 weeks premature.

Oh. Tamielle spent a month in the hospital before she was deemed stable enough to come home. But Trevor's condition was a lot more complicated

because he was born premature. His lungs were underdeveloped and that led obviously to chronic respiratory issues.

That was always my fear. Yeah, it's scary. Scary. It is very scary. Eventually, he was allowed to go home with his mom, but in the year that followed, he was in and out of the hospital with breathing problems.

That is so stressful. Yeah. And then you add that very stressful, very real situation into a very complicated marriage. Yeah, that is treated as not very

it's just a lot. It's a lot of just sadness and stress and a lot. Yeah. So, the birth of the twins and the complicated care that they required was just one more incredible strain on the relationship. But in 1985, things turned from bad to worse. During a stay at Children's Hospital in DC that September, Trevor's breathing tube accidentally came out.

Oh my god. And it took the hospital staff almost an hour and a half to get it back in place.

So, what the [ __ ] The prolonged lack of oxygen caused severe brain damage, and it left Trevor a quadripolgic.

Oh, circumstances that would very much require lifetime roundthe-clock care and assistance.

Oh my god. Lawrence said that situation broke the back. The relationship never recovered from that.

Even healthy relationships, that could that could break it. Absolutely. That's like that kind of stuff is horrific.

It is. So, at the end of 1986, Millie finally filed for divorce, which initiated a very long and very messy custody battle.

Oh god. And in the midst of all this, in the midst of all that, in 1987, the divorce was finalized and they were awarded joint custody, but Lawrence was ordered to pay monthly child support.

Yeah. By that time, he had left Invictus and was working as an independent contractor, but he eventually actually went back to Mottown looking for more stability and a reliable paycheck. I'm actually shocked they took him back after leaving to like start an offshoot project.

But unfortunately, trends in the music industry had changed and Mottown wasn't quite the powerhouse that it had been.

And by the mid80s, most of the label's biggest stars weren't very popular anymore. and they were struggling to find new acts to fill in those gaps.

Yeah. In 1988, Mottown ended up being sold to a larger company and Lawrence stayed for a little while as a tape librarian. He got 28,000 per year, which is 76,000 in 2026.

Wow. The salary was a very far cry from what he was used to. The money, the glamour, the Porsches, the donan, all of it.

But it did pay his bills. It allowed him to keep up with his child support payments. So, he was doing all right. But that same year, the Horns filed a malpractice suit against the hospital.

Yeah. And they were awarded nearly $3 million in damages. Oh, wow. Rightfully so.

Yeah. 2.3 million was awarded to Trevor, 322,000 to Mildred, and $125,000 to Lawrence.

Wow. But over the course of that year, Lawrence blew through all of his money that he got from the settlement.

Jesus. Almost all of it went to lawyer fees from the ongoing legal battle with Millie. Then in 1990, he was dealt another blow when he was fired from Mottown Records.

Oh. Neither Lawrence Horn nor Mottown has ever publicly provided a like in-depth reasoning for the firing.

Lawrence just blamed politics. Interesting. So, nobody really knows what happened to her.

I wonder what that was about. I have no idea. But in the three years that followed, his bills started to pile up more and more, and Milliey's child support payments stopped coming. M

by December of 1992, he owed his lawyers more than $65,000 and he had fallen $16,000 behind in his child support payments.

And that same month, a Montgomery County judge ordered him to immediately pay the overdue child support or he was going to be in like some serious [ __ ] trouble.

But the problem was since being fired, he was working as a freelance engineer, but he hadn't found a lot of work. He was broke and now he was facing very serious consequences if he couldn't come up with that payment. Yeah. So, let's move on to the murders that we're going to talk about. Because she was a working single mother with two other children, and the extent of Trevor's needs was so great, Millie ended up hiring a nurse, 38-year-old Janice Saunders, and that was to help care for Trevor. Obviously,

Janice graduated from Montgomery College with a nursing degree in 1983, and she had been working very steadily ever since. In 1993, she lived with her husband, Michael, and their three-year-old son, Colin, in Virginia. And that meant that she commuted an hour and a half each way to Milliey's house and back home.

So she was dedicated to her job. In the early morning hours of March 3rd, 1993, Janice was working overnight in the Horn House and she was staying up while Millie slept. Millie had worked late that night. To pass the time, Janice was working on a cross stitch from a pattern, which was her fifth uh piece in the pattern. It was called The Parade. At around 2:30 in the morning, the phone rang and Millie, still half asleep, answered and her daughter Tiffany was on the other end calling from college. Tiffany was like, "Oh, I'm sorry. I actually I didn't mean to call you. I meant to call somebody else." And they both said, "Good night." And Millie hung up and went back to sleep.

Somewhere in the next two two hours, while Janice was in Trevor's bedroom working on her crossstitch and, you know, listening for any signs of trouble or disturbances in Trevor's breathing,

Yeah. A man entered the house through the garage door, which was the only door in the house that wasn't locked.

The only door in the house that wasn't locked. [ __ ] This man was armed with a silenced AR722 caliber rifle and he crept through the house until he found Trevor's room. It's unknown whether or not Janice ever saw her killer. He stood several feet away from her and opened fire, striking her twice in the head and once through her eye socket. God,

that bullet penetrated her brain, which killed her instantly. Holy [ __ ] This is a lot, just so everybody knows. Obviously, with Janice now killed, the intruder walked over to the hospital bed where little Trevor was sleeping.

No. 8 years old, surrounded by his stuffed animals. The killer easily could have killed him by simply turning off the machines that controlled his breathing while he slept, but either the man didn't know that, or he just wanted to opt for a more brutal death.

Oh my god. He placed one hand over the tracheosttomy opening in Trevor's throat and one hand over his mouth and nose and he smothered Trevor to death. That is [ __ ] evil. It's diabolical. Holy [ __ ] So, the distressed and eventual end of Trevor's breathing set off the alarm on the medical monitor and the noise woke up Millie who jumped out of bed and obviously ran toward her son's room. She made it as far as the vestibule just inside the front door when the killer turned his rifle on her and again shot her twice in the head and once through the eye just like he had with Janice.

Oh my god. So the wounds were instantly fatal, obviously dropping Millie to the floor just inside the doorway. Later that morning, just after 7:00 a.m., Milliey's sister Viven drove over to Milliey's house. The night before, like I said, Millie had worked late.

Yeah. And Vivian agreed to watch Tam yell at her house while Millie was away. So, she was coming back to drop off Tamille.

Oh my goodness. I was wondering about Tamielle. Yeah. So, Janice, meanwhile, stayed at the Horn House, like I just said, to care for Trevor.

When Vivian initially drove up to the house planning to drop off Tamielle, she was surprised to find that the garage door was open. And she could see that the door that led from the garage to the family room was also a jar. This was very unusual because both Millie and Janice were super vigilant about locking doors and making sure everything was closed up. up. One door was unlocked.

And as soon as she got out of the car, Vivien heard the sound of the medical monitors alarm. So, and she'd later told police it only went off when there was no breath sounds transmitted to the machines.

This is horrific. It's awful. So, Vivian didn't need to know the details. The sound of the alarm was enough to know that something like there was an emergency here.

So, she got back into her car and drove home as fast as she could. And when she got there, she instructed Tamille to call 911 and have them meet her at Milliey's house. When Tamille placed the call, Vivian went next door to the home of her neighbor Deborah Falls and asked if she would go back to the house with her and just of her to do

to not go inside. To not go inside, not not touch anything cuz again, she's in charge of this other child right now. So, she's like, I need to

like keep my wits about me. Exactly. So, when they both got back to the horn house a few minutes later, they tried to enter through the front door, but the door seemed to be blocked by something on the other side, and neither of them could get it to budge. Unable to get in that way, Vivien went to a nearby window and peered inside to see what was blocking the door. And that's when she saw her sister lying on the floor, and she said, quote, with half of her face blown off.

Oh my god. The sight of her sister's body was obviously shocking. And once they realized that she had clearly been killed, neither woman went inside, deciding that they just needed to wait in the car for the police to get there.

Yeah. So, police and emergency responders got there a few minutes later, made their way inside, and obviously found all three bodies. The medical examiner also arrived a short time later, and after a cursory examination, he obviously concluded that all three deaths were the result of homicide.

Yeah. The cause of death for Millie and Janice was very obvious, but Trevor's cause of death, while obviously the result of Expixia, was a little less obvious upon first look. At first, the medical examiner assumed that the death had been caused off by the turning off of the medical equipment.

But later, after the investigation was finished and he was able to do a more thorough exam, the cause of death was changed to manual suffocation.

That's so horrific. And it's an eight-year-old little boy who literally is unable to breathe on his own. And you look at these like if you look at pictures of like Millie and Trevor and and Janice, like they all look like sweet such sweet people. I kill beautiful.

Millie was beautiful. Those kids are adorable. And Janice looks like the sweetest woman.

She's just got that like kind of face. And she dedicated her life to this. She drove an hour and a half each way to just go take care of. and she's a mother and she spent nights there when she needed to. Like

this was a lot horrible. So, according to Vivien, who had been in the home countless times prior to that day, obviously it's her sister. Things did look like they'd been disturbed, she said, but not overly so. Investigators obviously considered the homicides might have been the result of a robbery gone wrong, but they moved on from that theory once they got through their search of the home. According to court records, investigation of the Horn residents disclosed that only a few areas of the home had been disturbed. In the living room, a rug and a side table looked like they had been moved. The couch cushions had been removed and thrown on the floor. And everything inside Milliey's purse had been strewn out, like thrown over all over the living room, but nothing seemed like it was missing. And then elsewhere in the house, other rugs looked like they'd been kicked aside as an intruder walked

by. And a few other pieces of furniture were toppled over. But even though it looked like the house had been ransacked, to the detectives, it was quote in a cursory way that gave the appearance of having been staged.

It's very clear. Yeah. In fact, for all the mess in the house, other than Milliey's missing credit card and her check cashing card, nothing seemed to have been taken.

Huh. And as they walked through the scene, investigators did notice several valuable items just sitting in plain view. There was Milliey's 5 karat diamond bracelet just out. There was a lot of other jewelry, too. Several electronics and Janice Saunders jewelry and purse were also found in the house with all of the contents undisturbed.

Interesting. Yeah. So, based on the brutality of the murders, the absence of uh the evidence of sexual assault and the fact that nothing of value really had been taken, investigators were left with only one theory. Whoever broke into Millie Horn's house obviously did so with the intention of killing everybody in there.

Wow. But who would want to kill two women and a severely disabled child? That's what I'm like, you have to be such a [ __ ] up individual.

Absolutely you do. Like that's beyond. Absolutely you do. So, Detective Chris Wittenberg was put in charge of the case, and his thorough search of the crime scene appeared to support the belief that everything looked like it was staged, but it was not in fact a robbery. And he found some more evidence to that. In the basement, one of the window screens had been pulled away and there were pry marks on the frame, but the killer didn't enter the house that way. It was clear.

Yeah. On the back deck, the weather stripping on the doors leading into the home had been punctured, which would have allowed access to the dead bolts that secured the doors.

And either of these would have been an easy access point to into the house, but neither again was the way that the killer got inside.

And it seemed like they were made to look like they'd been tried and eventually abandoned.

Okay. Unfortunately, beyond the obvious setup, there wasn't much evidence to be found. Later that day, though, some joggers did find Milliey's missing credit cards scattered along the side of the road, not that far from the house,

so nobody even used the I was going to say, so they didn't even take them. So, the fact that they'd been taken and immediately discarded was even more evidence that this was never about robbery.

Other than that, too, a trigger from an AR7 was found in the woods a few weeks later by K9 units, but the serial number had been filed off. which makes you think it's professional.

Absolutely. And then this is crazy. I don't think I've heard of this in a case that we've talked about. Maybe you can remember. Nearby, investigators also also found a rat tail file with traces of gunpowder on it. And detectives thought that it had been used to scour the barrel of the gun to obscure striation patterns, which if you're not familiar, I wasn't. Uh striation patterns are microscopic marks left behind on bullets and cartridge cases cases. fingerprints.

They're literally like fingerprints and it's when they're fired from a gun. But somebody had taken that rat tail file to [ __ ] with them.

That's literally cuz I took a ballistics class like an anthropology class and part of it was ballistics

and that was one of the things we learned about. And to to scour that off is like filing off fingerprints. It's like firing filing off your own fingerprints after you've left them at a scene so they can't trace them to you. It's the same thing which is nuts.

They find those quote unquote fingerprint striations on that bullet. They would be able to match it to that barrel. But if you scour that off,

there's no way to do it. And that's professional [ __ ] Very much so. Like what the [ __ ]

Isn't that crazy? I I feel like we haven't talked about talked a lot about striation patterns, but that's interesting.

Yeah, there's a lot of interesting stuff with ballistics. I That's the You've gotten into it like a few times. I always find that stuff really interesting. That must have been a cool class.

It was a really cool class. Now, so that's [ __ ] crazy. But in the absence of most evidence, Detective Wittenberg and his team decided to focus all their attention at this point on a possible motive because that's going to give you a story at least to follow, a path to follow.

The killer staged the scene to look like robbery. And even though they were pretty sure it wasn't, that didn't mean that the murders weren't about money.

Yeah. You know. Yeah, for sure. So, at that point, they started to consider who would have benefited from the deaths of these three victims. Digging into Millie's background, they discovered that she had come from a large family with 13 brothers and sisters.

Damn. But they were all super close. They all seemed to be upstanding people. And by all appearances, they were still very close with each other. They kept in touch regularly. Like, this wasn't the path they were going down.

Milliey's sister, Elaine, said there are 365 days in a year, and I was at Milliey's house, 360 of them.

Which just made me think of you. Yeah. Like seriously, clearly whoever was responsible for these murders, they weren't going to be found among the family of Millie.

So turning his attention to Milliey's ex-husband Lawrence Detective Wittenberg started to learn the details of the divorce and of Trevor's medical history and the malpractice settlement from Children's Hospital. Even though they were divorced under Maryland law, if Millie and Trevor both were to die, then the multi-million dollar trust fund set up for Trevor's care would go directly to Lawren Horn. Uh, as far as Detective Wittenberg was concerned, that was a very good motive for murder.

Sure is. So, suspicion fell quickly on him, but at the same time, the detective didn't want to rush into things.

So, he started questioning the people around Millie about her relationship with Lawrence. Milliey's sisters all said unanimously that the divorce proceedings were hostile, like particularly hostile. And they also all of them knew Lawrence had fallen well behind on his child support payments in recent months and was facing I don't know exactly what but I know you can face jail time if you don't pay.

Yeah. Or they can start to just take your paycheck directly. Yeah. So they all agreed that if anybody would have wanted Millie dead it would have been Lawrence.

Mhm. But the most interesting piece of information actually came from Millie and Lawrence's daughter Tiffany. The night before the murders occurred. She actually spoke to her dad on the phone. And according to her her quote, her father had been obsessed with questions about where everybody in the family would be the following night, including what she knew about when her mother would be home and whether Tamielle would be sleeping over that night at Elaine's.

Oo, that's so spooky. So, he wanted to make sure that Tamielle wasn't there. At least is what it sounded like.

Damn. So, Tiffany's interview supported the belief that Lawrence was involved in the murder. And 10 days later, he flew to Los Angeles to sit down for an interview with Lawrence. Before he got there though, he arranged with the LAPD to have the home Lauren shared with his girlfriend Sherry to be searched for evidence.

Mhm. So on the evening of March 13th, offer officers arrived at the house with a search warrant and neither Sherry nor Lawrence was home. So it was kind of perfect.

Yeah. When they searched the house, they found, among other things, a video cassette where Lawrence filmed himself driving the route from the days in in Rockville, Maryland to Milliey's neighborhood in Silver Spring, as well as a handdrawn map of Milliey's neighborhood that indicated which house was hers. Huh.

There was also a piece of paper from a Days notepad that had several phone numbers and other pieces of cryptic information.

Ew. So, that's all weird. I don't You don't need a map of anybody's house that you know.

Yeah. I don't like it. A few hours into their search, Sher and Lawrence actually got back home and they both were shocked. They were like, "What the [ __ ] is the police doing here?" And when they gave Lawrence a copy of the warrant and explained why they were there, he immediately protested and he said, "No, no, no. I have an alibi for the night of the murder.

Better than an alibi, even. I have a videotape of me and Sherry in the apartment on the night of the murder." irrefutable proof that he was nowhere near Maryland when Millie, Janice, and Trevor were killed.

Okay. Odd. Very odd. Odd. Very odd. So, the next day, Detective Wittenberg watched the tape. In it, Lawrence and Cherry can just be seen standing in the living room of their apartment as the camera films from a position on a tripod. And at one point, the camera zooms in on the television directly behind them, and the date and time can clearly be seen.

That's convenient. Super. Wow. But it was irrefutable proof that Lawrence couldn't have been in Maryland when the murders were committed. But as far as Detective Whittenberg was concerned, like you just said, it was all a little too convenient and really [ __ ] odd.

Yep. Like why do you just have a videotape of you standing in your living room with your girlfriend that zooms in on the time and date?

Yeah, that's a little weird. I don't know about little weird. It'd be one thing if it was like a birthday party or like

an anniversary or like something, but just for the hell of it. Yeah, like it's just strange.

I don't know about that. So, it proved he wasn't directly the killer, but that didn't mean that he wasn't responsible for the deaths. Now turning to the only evidence of substance gathered from his apartment, Detective Wittenberg directed several members of his team to contact all of the days in locations in the vicinity of Milliey's neighborhood.

And they needed to get access to their registrations in the days leading up to the murder. This great detective work.

Yeah, I was going to say it's one of those situations that you're like, "Good job."

Yeah. So almost immediately, one registration jumped out at him. Around midnight on the night of the murders, a man named James Perry checked into the Days in Rockville, Maryland, and checked out just 6 hours later. Weird. He uh he paid cash for the room, but he used his driver's license when he checked in. So, looking over the phone records for the hotel room, it also appeared that Perry had got a call around 11:50 p.m. from a pay phone that just happened to be located outside of the post office, which was a short distance away from Lawrence Horn's home, all the way in LA.

Wow, that's crazy. That is crazy. Even more damning, phone records also showed an incoming call to Lawrence Horn's apartment from the days in at 5:12 a.m. just after the murders occurred and just before Perry checked out of the hotel.

Huh. Interesting. Very interesting. So, a quick check of James Perry's background revealed that he was a fairly small-time criminal from Detroit. At the time of the murders, he was presenting himself uh professionally as Dr. J. Perry, a self-described spiritual adviser and case buster. Okay. Yeah.

Spiritual adviser and case buster. Two things that don't necessarily go hand in hand, but I feel like they should.

I don't know. Yeah. He also had a criminal record that included arrests for felony assault, armed robbery, and he was known for being a con artist.

Okay. Yeah. Now, digging into those phone records, investigators discovered lots and lots of calls between payoneses in the area of Lawrence Horn's apartment and payoneses in places where Perry was known to spend his time in Detroit. With help from the FBI, Detective Wittenberg had an agent interview James Perry under the guise of just a routine check. The agent told Perry it was just a routine thing. They were checking with everybody who had checked into the days in on that date. And Perry was like, "Yep, I was there. I stopped to get some sleep. I was driving for a while, but I still had several more hours of driving ahead of me. So, it was a quick thing."

Okay. He said once he rested, he got back on the road and he continued home to Detroit. Now, using his credit card as the main reference point, investigators were able to establish that he had made several calls to LA on the trip from Rockville to Detroit.

And between Yeah. between the calls from Detroit to Los Angeles and the calls establishing his trip from Maryland to Detroit, agents were very much able to get a warrant to search his apartment.

Seeming a little sus. Yeah. So, the search of his apartment didn't necessarily turn up much that was incriminating or much that was of evidentiary value, but they did find a large number of books, magazines, and cataloges about crime and weapons.

Okay? And they weren't just the kind of thing that you could buy at any bookstore. The magazines and the cataloges would have had to have been directly ordered from a company.

Huh. So on a hunch, Detective Wittenberg started calling around to some of these publishers to find out whether James Perry had ordered anything from them.

Interesting. And it took a few tries to finally get a hit. But a company called Palladen Press in Colorado confirmed that James Perry had ordered two books from them in 1992.

According to the sales rep, the titles were How to Make Disposable Silencers and Hitman: A Technical Manual for Independent Contractors. What? Yeah,

that second one I mean literally titled second one. Hitman a technical manual. And remember I told you whoever killed them used a silencer

on their automatic rifle. Of course. Yeah. What the that I can't believe that exists. Like what the [ __ ] And imagine if this detective hadn't had the hunch to call those publishing companies. Like that's next level.

This is right in your face. Like he found the smoking gun. Like no pun intended right here.

Very much so. Holy [ __ ] Thank goodness he was thinking outside of the box a little bit.

Yeah, a little bit. Well, you have to think of the time here. It's like the '9s. Like it's it's impressive.

That is out of the box thinking at that point. Yeah. So now sensing that he was becoming the prime suspect or at least one of them in Milliey's murder, Lawrence decided he was going to be proactive in his defense and he started offering interviews with any reporter who would listen.

When asked directly by an Associated Press reporter whether he had anything to do with the deaths, he said, "I couldn't be involved in something like that. I couldn't have done that to Trevor." Okay. According to him, any suspicion that had fallen on him was the result of accusations made by Milliey's sisters. In fact, he told a reporter he had decided to stay away from his own son's funeral due to the quote amount of animosity that they felt towards him.

So, he was making himself a victim in all of this. There's so many layers to that because it's like, wow, you're going to blame her sisters

and you're not going to go son's funeral and you're not going to go to Could you not handle it?

Wild horses shouldn't be able to drag you away from that funeral. Who gives a [ __ ] if people thinks you're I don't I wouldn't care at all.

No. Everybody can think I'm an [ __ ] That's my son's funeral. Yeah, you would go. And it's like, do you think you look better not going to your child's funeral?

That's the thing. Like, what the [ __ ] But it's also like, could you handle it?

Yeah. Maybe knowing what you maybe allegedly, maybe there's a reason you can't.

So, despite his attempts to frame himself as just another victim in the tragedy, statements from Milliey's friends and family that came out in the months that followed really didn't do a lot to support his account. In April, two of Milliey's co-workers came forward with reports that Millie feared Horn might kill her.

Oh, wow. She was literally telling people that and those were followed by reports in the press that he was unemotional when he learned of the murders. In response, he told a reporter that the murders had quote devastated his life and that he had quote nothing whatsoever to do with them.

Okay. What Lawrence didn't know was though, behind the scenes, investigators were very capable of building this case and were building this case against James Perry. And that case involved that trail of telephone conversations that led directly to Lawrence.

Because it always will, babe. It always will. It always will. Finally, in late July 1994, more than a year after the murders had occurred, the Montgomery County States Attorney Andrew Sonner gave the gohead to Detective Wittenberg to arrest both James Perry and Lawrence Horn on charges of first-degree murder. And they were both picked up in Detroit and in Hollywood on July 20th. I I never understand why people think they're going to get away with that. You're never going to get somebody to do your dirty work for you.

It's always going to tie back to you and you're both going to go down. That's the thing.

At a press conference the following day, Sonner praised Whittenberg's team for what he called the most exhaustive and labor intensive investigation in the department's history.

And as for the crime itself, he told reporters, "This is not an ordinary murder case. This was planned long in advance and arranged with a great deal of preparation and evil."

Yeah. This is his own son. This is his own son and the mother of his children. Yeah. And the woman that has taken dedicated to helping your family.

Yep. Like what the [ __ ] So in response to the charges, his lawyer told reporters, "I spoke to Mr. Horn at some length last evening. He continues to maintain his innocence and continues to vehemently deny any involvement in these murders."

Then how is he connected to the hitman? Exactly. Like come on. Yeah. So despite that, law enforcement officials assured the press that they had worked tirelessly over the last year and that they established documentary evidence proving that Lawrence had hired James Perry, communicated with him before and after the murders, and also paid him.

Yeah, babe. You can't get out of it. They literally had evidence of payments. How can you explain that?

You can't. You can't. So, James' trial uh began October 12th, 1995. And by that time, the case had been covered very extensively in the press. And Sonner's decision to ask for the death penalty made it even more sensational for trial watchers. So the biggest challenge for prosecutors Bob Dean and Terresa Whan was the fact that the entire case against Perry was based on circumstantial evidence. They had the phone log showing that contact between the two. They did have the financial transaction and the two books, Hitman and Silencer,

but nothing directly connecting him to the murders from like a legal from a legal standpoint. Exactly.

So rather like like forensics. Exactly. So rather than try to minimize that fact, Terresa Whan actually leaned into it, which was a smart way to go about this.

She told the jury, "James Perry did better than leaving his fingerprint at the scene because James Perry followed a blueprint."

Yeah. And here's the blueprint. Literally, he had followed the instructions in Hitman to the letter, which was the most compelling evidence that he committed those murders.

That is such a smart way to go about that. It is a not we don't need a fingerprint. He has the blueprint.

We have the book that we know he has. Yep. And he followed it to the tea. And not only like has but special ordered.

Yeah. What the [ __ ] And it's like and this blueprint is exactly why we don't have his fingerprint.

Yeah. So ultimately the jury agreed and uh October 12th after deliberating for just uh 4 hours they found him guilty on all three counts of first-degree murder and one count of conspiracy to commit murder. A few days later on October 16th that same jury sentenced him to death by lethal injection for those murders and a life sentence for the conspiracy charge. His sentence was the first time a Maryland jury had returned a death sentence in 15 years in almost 15 years. So, it was a big deal.

Yeah. Which is another reason that I'm just shocked I hadn't heard of this case before.

I know. So, Lawrence's trial followed a few months behind Perry's with Dean and Whan also leading the prosecution and presenting pretty much the same case to a new jury. Rodney Smaller wrote, "In many respects, the Horn trial was a replay of James Perry's case, but the Horn trial was far more emotionally intense. Of course,

the kid's father and like his aranged wife." Yeah. Among other things, the trial featured a lot of lengthy readings from Hitman, including a passage that suggested hitmen should quote, "look for clients in messy divorce cases."

Wow. Spot on. That is such a dis I can't believe that that exists. How disgusting.

Well, I have good news for you. Good. So, the trial also included obviously gripping, heartbreaking testimony from several family members, including Milliey's sister Vivian, who remember found her sister's body and described that to the court. even imagine that.

No. Her detailed account of finding her sister's body caused another one of Milliey's sisters to start crying uncontrollably and she actually had to be removed with assistance, which is just

I don't know how you can sit there and not uncontrollably cry. Yeah. The most damning testimony though came from Tiffany who told the court that her father quote told me once that Trevor could never be a real son to him because of his condition. That's [ __ ] disgusting.

Truly that is so shameful. Absolutely. That's [ __ ] disgusting. Absolutely it is.

One to say that at all or to have those feelings to say it to your other child who's disgusting.

That's his older sister. Yeah. That's disgusting. Unreal. So the jury in the Horn trial found the prosecution's case just as compelling as the jury in the Perry case, luckily. And on May 4th, Lawrence Horn was found guilty of three counts of first-degree murder and one count of conspiracy to commit murder. According to the press, he betrayed no emotions as the verdicts were read in a packed courtroom. Stonefaced.

He doesn't give a [ __ ] No. After the verdicts were announced, Jenna Saunders sister, Terry Krebs, told reporters, "There's no joy in this decision because joy was taken from us on March 3rd, 1993."

Tiffany was more satisfied with the outcome. She said, "I'm just glad we got a guilty verdict. Not only were my mother and my brother and Janice killed, but my family was destroyed. I hope when this is over, we'll be able to rebuild it because all we have is family." Oh, that just breaks my heart.

It's like, babe, how does your [ __ ] daughter know that at 20 years old or like a little bit older at this point and you don't?

Yeah. You don't realize that all you have is family and that you don't [ __ ] turn your back and kill your whole family.

And to say that child was not a real son because of what he had gone through. What?

What the [ __ ] What? That's so because he has difficulty breathing and it had like a tragic event take so many things away from him. He's not your real son.

Disgusting. So on May 17th, uh the jury convened and he was sentenced to life in prison with no possibility for parole. Bye. In 2001, of course, there was an appeals, an automatic appeal because James Perry got the death penalty. He argued, among other things, that his constitutional rights have been violated when investigators tapped his phone. It's always the constitutional rights.

The justices ultimately did reverse the lower court's decision, but it was with no enthusiasm. They wrote, "When due process demands the law will reverse a conviction of an an undisputed and cold-blooded killer, even on a technicality because it must. It is not with any sense of satisfaction that a court reverses on a technicality. When it does so, it does so reluctantly and with a heavy heart and only because it must." Damn.

So, they were like, "Our backs are up against a court. We don't want to do this, but we have to." So after the conviction was overturned, the state district attorney consulted with the victim's families on what they would prefer, if they wanted Perry to be tried again or if they wanted him to just get a plea deal. So that

I like when they do this. Yeah, it's cool. They all agreed that he should be retrieded for the murders.

After presenting what was basically the same case against Perry, just without some of the uh phone tapping evidence,

he was found guilty again. However, this time the jury sentenced him to four life sentences without the possibility of

honestly. Let's go. Basically the same. On December 30th, 2009, he died of an undisclosed illness at Maryland's Jessup Correctional Institution. And Lawrence Horn also died in prison of an undisclosed illness on February 11th, 2017. Peace. Bye. Following the conviction of James Perry, Elaine Rice ended up filing a suit against the Palladon Press and its owner, Peter Lond, arguing that their books had contributed to the death of Janice Saunders, Millie, and Trevor Horn.

I'm not usually for this kind of thing. No, me neither. Fully for this in this case.

I am very much not for, you know, banning books, anything like that. This kind of book, absolutely.

If that is a literal manual to murder someone, get it out of here and that's the intention of it. get it. That's [ __ ] up. Like, this isn't like fiction. This isn't like a discussion of this kind of stuff. This is a literal how-to guide. I mean, that's disgusting. That's the line.

I can't believe it ever was even published, to be honest. Wild. Lawyer Howard Seagull said, "It's a murder man. Perry bought the book from Paden. He followed 27 specific instructions in the book and he executed three human beings."

Yeah. I mean, this is to me, maybe somebody else feels differently about this and you absolutely can if you want to.

Yeah, of course. Again, banning books I am 100% not for. Obviously, this one has no place at all. It just doesn't.

It's not a book. It's a murder manual. That's literally what it is. That's not a book.

Precisely. In their defense, London argued, quote, "We didn't have anything to do with inciting Mr. Perry to murder. In how many ways did these particular killings differ from what was written from the killings described in the Hitman manual?"

It's like, they didn't really. He followed it to a te. Followed it. So in February 97, the court ruled that hitman was not protected by the first amendment and both Lond and Palladen Press could be held liable for its role in three murders. So this is a big deal.

Yeah. Two years later in 99 uh Palladon Press did agree to settle out of court with the family, not because they accepted their role in the murders, they said, but because their insurance company refused to continue liability coverage because these costs were insane at this point.

Yeah. In addition to paying for the financial penalties, they did agree to destroy the remaining copies of the book and they surrendered their rights to the work.

Wow. And that is the Hitman murders. The murders of Millie. Wow. Trevor and Janice.

What a horrific case. It really is a horrific and completely senseless case. So senseless. It was all for money.

Yeah. It was all just so that he could live the life that he wanted to live again.

Want to keep having selfishness? Like I'm just that that got me. Yeah, it's a it's a horrible case and it's just surprising.

Like I hadn't heard of that one before. I just I am like an 8-year-old who has already gone through everything that Trevor has gone through.

Laying there surrounded by his stuffed animals, unable to move, unable to move,

unable to protect himself. and his mother who has done everything to try to take care of those kids and work for those kids.

Yeah. She's working her ass off and like working overnight to pay for a nurse. Oh, she was a single mother. Absolutely.

It's so [ __ ] up. And this nurse who has like dedicated her whole life to helping this family. Like [ __ ] you.

You killed some of the best of the best people it seems. It's so sad. Damn. That's That's rough.

It's a rough one. Yeah. I'm so happy that he died in prison. I'm glad justice was served. The hitman died in prison as well. I hope his rema I hope his remaining children and family and like Milliey's family are [ __ ] thriving.

Yeah. Well, and I like what Tiffany said like this destroyed my family, but I hope we can rebuild because that's all you have is family.

Yeah. I hope they did. I hope they're thriving. I hope they're so happy and healthy and

I wish them all the best. Living the best lives. All right. Do you want a fun fact?

I crave a fun fact right now. Oh, this one I found I was just like that really is fun. Many animals are able to predict earthquakes to varying levels of success. But snakes are the most reliable.

They can sense an earthquake from as far as 75 miles away. And they can even sense an earthquake 5 days before it actually occurs.

That is the funnest fact, isn't it? And when they sense an earthquake, they leave their nests even if it's too cold out. They're like, I'm not staying here for this [ __ ]

Yeah. Like this shit's going to collapse. Isn't that fascinating? Wow. Oh, and that was from the fact site.

[ __ ] Yeah. And I wonder if it's just something to do with how grounded to the earth they are all the time. Like their entire lives are grounded to the earth.

Their whole body. They can feel like a shift. That is cool as hell. It is cool. I I snakes creep me out, but I really like them.

I really like snakes. I really like them. I held a giant snake at my youngest birthday party.

That's cool. And I felt like Britney Spears in that. Absolutely. It's Britney. I was like, I love this snake.

You said every time they turn the lights, the snake was so sweet. A She was like a beautiful lady.

I love that. And I felt like we connected. You did. Hell yeah. Snakes. I love it. I'm obsessed.

Damn. All right. Well, think about snakes. Yeah. Think about genuine snakes, not human snakes like Lawrence.

Um and and and James Perry. But yeah, think about snakes. Order Elena's books. Watch Center, watch the pit,

find Joy, and Ice. We hope you keep listening, and we hope you keep it, but not so weird that you say we're virtue signaling by.

Yeah.

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "Episode 753: The “Hitman” Murders"?

Elena (Host), Ash (Host), Lawrence Horn (Guest), Millie Horn (Guest), James Perry (Guest), Tiffany Horn (Guest).

What is "Episode 753: The “Hitman” Murders" about?

The main topic revolves around the hosts discussing their recent experiences, including attending a concert and highlighting the importance of finding joy in everyday life amidst challenges. They also touch on personal insights regarding social interactions, memory, and the struggles associated with managing ADHD, emphasizing the need for self-care and connection with others.

What is mentioned in this Morbid | Podcast episode?

28 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Lawrence Horn, Millie Horn, James Perry, Janice Saunders, Hitman: A Technical Manual for Independent Contractors, Tiffany Horn. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "Episode 753: The “Hitman” Murders"?

The episode runs 1 h 8 min; the transcript is about 13,966 words in 393 timestamped sections.

More from Morbid | Podcast

About this transcript: the episode's spoken words as captioned on YouTube, split into timestamped sections. Reclip.Me locates every person, work and idea in the text, keeps the time it is first named, and quotes the words around it verbatim. Last updated February 3, 2026.