Authors discuss book on new vision for equality amid Trump’s anti-diversity push

What this episode is about

The discussion revolves around the growing backlash against diversity initiatives amid the Trump administration's efforts to reshape historical narratives and remove symbols of inclusivity, such as the Pride flag at Stonewall National Monument. Kenji Yoshino and David Glasgow, co-authors of "How Equality Wins," propose a new vision for an inclusive America, emphasizing the need to adapt the approach to achieving equality in response to these challenges.

Key takeaways

• Trump's crusade against diversity reveals a stark truth: rewriting history can't erase lived experiences.
• Dissent is not the enemy; it's essential for a genuine dialogue on diversity and equality.
• Ignoring economic benefits, like increased competitiveness from DEI, risks leaving companies in the dark ages.
• The battle over monuments is a microcosm; history's lessons can’t simply be scrubbed away.
• Younger generations are the wildcards; their embrace of diversity could redefine America's values going forward.

Who speaks in this episode?

• Kenji Yoshino (Host) · 4 min speaking
• David Glasgow (Guest) · 4 min speaking

What is discussed, and when

1. 0:00 – 3:00: Kenji Yoshino, How Equality Wins, David Glasgow, NYU School of Law
2. 3:00 – 6:00: David Glasgow, Target
3. 6:00 – 9:00: Heritage Foundation
4. 9:00 – 10:14: How Equality Wins, David Glasgow

Notable quotes from "Authors discuss book on new vision for equality amid Trump’s anti-diversity push"

• America's monuments landmarks and institutions have been targeted or erased altogether right now the trump administration is suing harvard university after the doj said the ivy…

  about Harvard University · at 0:02

• For diversity inclusion and belonging at nyu law guess you guys work together they are co-authors of the new book how equality wins a new vision for an inclusive america…

  about How Equality Wins · at 1:01

• The second one is social, we all saw the Target boycott, you know when Target so walked its DEI policies backwards.

  about Target · at 5:16

• So the part of it that's no is that even conservative think tanks like the Heritage Foundation have done investigations of what's going on within corporate America and within universities.

  about Heritage Foundation · at 6:15

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

• David Glasgow — Person · Main guest · 3 mentions · first at 0:56
  Interviewed as Executive Director of NYU Law’s Meltzer Center, discussing practical/legal strategies for sustaining DEI and shifting from 'lifting' to 'leveling' practices.
  Joining us now, Kenji Yoshino, Professor of Constitutional Law at NYU School of Law and David Glasgow, Executive Director of the Meltzer center for diversity inclusion and…
• Kenji Yoshino — Person · Main guest · 2 mentions · first at 0:51
  Interviewed as an NYU constitutional law professor and co-author of a new book proposing a reframed approach to equality/DEI amid political backlash.
  Joining us now, Kenji Yoshino, Professor of Constitutional Law at NYU School of Law and David Glasgow, Executive Director of the Meltzer center for diversity inclusion and belonging.

Books & papers

• How Equality Wins — Book · Primary recommendation · 2 mentions · first at 1:06
  The book is the main subject of discussion, co-authored by the guests, discussing a new vision for inclusive America.

Companies & orgs

• NYU School of Law — Company · Affiliation · 1 mention · first at 0:53
  The institution is the professional affiliation of the guests, providing context to their expertise.
  Joining us now, Kenji Yoshino, Professor of Constitutional Law at NYU School of Law and David Glasgow, Executive Director of the Meltzer center for diversity inclusion and…
• Harvard University — Company · Case study · 1 mention · first at 0:07
  Harvard is mentioned in the context of a lawsuit regarding affirmative action, illustrating the broader discussion on DEI.
• Target — Company · Case study · 1 mention · first at 5:16
  Target is mentioned as an example of a company facing backlash for its DEI policies.
• Heritage Foundation — Company · Referenced expert · 1 mention · first at 6:17
  The Heritage Foundation is mentioned as a conservative think tank investigating DEI activities in corporate America and universities.

Places & events

• Stonewall National Monument — Place · Setting · 1 mention · first at 0:38
  The monument is mentioned as the birthplace of the modern LGBTQ rights movement and a site of political activism.
  This week, politicians and activists raise the pride flag once again at the historic site.

Full transcript with timestamps

0:01 as president trump's war on diversity intensifies america's monuments landmarks and institutions have been targeted or erased altogether right now the trump administration is suing harvard university after the doj said the ivy league school refused to provide admissions records to ensure harvard had stopped using affirmative action in admissions. Meanwhile, U.S. monuments from Pennsylvania to Montana are conforming to the president's attempt to rewrite history and remove exhibits that address topics like slavery and racism.

0:33 In light of that, officials in New York City are pushing back against the Trump administration's removal of the Pride flag from Stonewall National Monument, which is the birthplace of the modern LGBTQ rights movement. This week, politicians and activists raise the pride flag once again at the historic site. Joining us now, Kenji Yoshino, Professor of Constitutional Law at NYU School of Law and David Glasgow, Executive Director of the Meltzer center for diversity inclusion and belonging at nyu law guess you guys work together together they are co-authors of the new book how equality wins a new vision for an inclusive america uh gentlemen welcome to the weekend congratulations on the book which comes out on tuesday i want to read a little something from from your book to set up this conversation you write while the field of dei is in crisis too many america too many americans prize the venerable ideal of equality

1:31 for it to disappear the question is what will happen when the irresistible force of the assault on dei meets the immovable object of the collective commitment to equality. Our answer to the riddle is that the work of equality will have to change. Kenji, what does that change? How? Yeah, thanks so much for having us. So I think it has to change in several ways, some of which will be appealing and some of which will not be appealing. Start with the not appealing. The left, yeah. The not appealing stuff is that we need to support more dissent, Right, one of the things that we're seeing this administration do is to really shut down, as you just described, with regard to rewriting history.

2:12 We really need to make sure that we allow individuals into the tent, not create a kind of cancel culture where people feel uncomfortable raising their views for at least a couple of reasons. I mean, one is that it makes preference falsification happen, that people nod along and then vote their real preferences in the voting booth. And then the other one is that it makes even support very fragile. So you might nod along and say trans women are a woman because that's what the nice, kind people are saying, as Natalie Wynn says.

2:44 But when somebody pushes on you, if we've only internalized that as a slogan rather than as a moral argument about equality, then you're not going to be able to push back. When the dissent, though, is about whether or not someone's allowed to exist in this country and live the way that they either want to live or feel they were born to to live that feels like that's when you, when it gets into the sticky stuff, Professor Glasgow, where, where, where, where, you know, I understand what you're saying because when I came out, I told my family, I was like, um, look, the Eugene train is going.

3:17 I I understand that some things have changed, not much. Frankly, it was a glass door. But I was like, the Eugene train is going. We'll pick people up along the way. You can ask questions and get on and off. But that's not how EVERYBODY EXPERIENCES LIFE. I WAS PRIVILEGED TO BE ABLE TO DO THAT AND LIVE IN A FAMILY WHERE THAT WAS OKAY, AND I DIDN'T GET THE DECENT. BUT THERE ARE PEOPLE WHEN THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT TRANS WOMEN OR WOMEN FOR EXAMPLE, OR I WANT TO EXIST IN and what as a black trans woman, then the dissent is, no, you can't.

3:48 And that's a little bit different than just like asking questions. Oh, for sure. And I would encourage people to robustly push back and engage in disagreement with people who express those kind of views. So supporting dissent doesn't mean you have to just listen to whatever anyone says without raising any peep of objection, but we think that creating a culture in which people feel freer to voice genuine doubts concerns in good faith with people is more conducive to actually persuading them in the long term than if you're just kind of shutting them down or condemning them at the first sign of them disagreeing with you.

4:23 I hate to simplify this, but just because we're talking about it in the context of the private sector and the tactical approach that companies can take to implementing successful DEI programs. How much does the economic argument play into your thesis? The fact that a lot of studies show that companies that have a robust diversity and inclusion program have a competitive edge to companies that don't. Yeah, a huge amount because one of the chapters is really about the risks of retreating from DEI. So I think one of the things that this administration has been very successful in doing is scaring people into thinking, if I stay in DEI, then I'm in trouble.

5:00 Whereas there are multiple risks of retreating from DEI. So one is purely legal, ask any general counsel where their discrimination cases are coming from. And they'll tell you the super majority of Title VII cases are still coming from traditional plaintiffs like women, people of color and the like. The second one is social, we all saw the Target boycott, you know when Target so walked its DEI policies backwards. Another one is international, an international organization even as we sort of withdraw from DEI other countries are doubling down and investing in it.

5:30 And the final one is generational, which is to say people keep saying the country is divided 50-50 between pro and anti DEI but actually if you look at the younger generations they are wildly way more for DEI than the older generations are. So as Gen Z moves into the workplace then we're going to see a real change. So all of that adds up to the business case. Well, that's great because David I was going to ask you. I'm wondering is there really a retreat from DEI? I mean all of the stories have to do with the administration has done this, there's this executive order, this company has done away with their program, that company has done away with their program and that takes up the news cycle.

6:11 But on the ground for real is there a retreat? Yes and no. So the part of it that's no is that even conservative think tanks like the Heritage Foundation have done investigations of what's going on within corporate America and within universities. And they say that there's a rampant disguised DEI going on, right? Secret DEI activities going on under the scenes. But at the same time, there has certainly been pullbacks. It's often called diversity hushing. A lot of it just means we're not going to talk about DEI publicly.

6:41 We're not going to put anything on social media. We're not going to put anything on our website. But we're still committed to the values of inclusion within our own organization. But is that a commitment? Because if I was like secretly married, I never ever, I didn't wear a ring and I didn't talk to my husband. I hadn't talked about my husband anywhere. THAT'S NOT A COMMITMENT, RIGHT? A COMMITMENT TO ALL THE PRESSURBATION TECHNIQUE. BUT THIS IS THE THING, WHY NOT THROW IT ON THE TABLE BECAUSE THERE IS A BENEFIT IN NUMBERS first of all.

7:12 This administration, even there's like a lot of talk and a lot of pushback on DEI and all the other things that they choose to push back on. But we've seen cases in which people and then they kind of move on. So the idea of like secret DEI, is that true equality? Is that how quality works? Well, I'm grinning just because I want to stand up and applaud innovation for what you just said. You do that in the

8:05 so much fear about I'm going to get, you know, Starbucks by Robbie Starbuck or there's going to be some other social consequence that's going to attach to me. So really what this whole book is about is to say here are the safe ways to do DEI that are both legal and politically wildly popular. So even if we just talk about it as a quality rather than about DEI, you can actually find the strategic path to quieting down those fears. The hope is by giving people that pathway, it will give people more courage to do exactly the kind of activity that you're talking about.

8:34 The key word you just used was legal because the one little error in your example about your marriage, your marriage is legal for now it could be it could be secret or not but at least it's legal and the dynamic here when it comes to dei is that you have an a president and a doj with an executive order that is geared to holding folks accountable not following what they want to do but title seven is still legal in this country oh dei programs are still legal oh absolutely and that's where a lot of the confusion arises is that this administration is muddying the waters, I think deliberately by expanding the conception of what is illegal DEI when the vast majority of DEI activities are perfectly legal.

9:21 So just to give you a clear example. You know, we urge a shift from lifting practices to leveling practices. So affirmative action practices giving people a formal bump or a preference that is legally risky ever since the affirmative action decision that the supreme court handed down but removing bias from systems creating a level playing field in recruitment and promotion and so forth that is perfectly legal to continue doing we'll keep having this conversation david glasgow kenji oshino thank you very much for coming on the show and congrats on the book authors of how equality wins up next trump's latest bogus award why

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "Authors discuss book on new vision for equality amid Trump’s anti-diversity push"?

Kenji Yoshino (Host), David Glasgow (Guest).

What is "Authors discuss book on new vision for equality amid Trump’s anti-diversity push" about?

The discussion revolves around the growing backlash against diversity initiatives amid the Trump administration's efforts to reshape historical narratives and remove symbols of inclusivity, such as the Pride flag at Stonewall National Monument. Kenji Yoshino and David Glasgow, co-authors of "How Equality Wins," propose a new vision for an inclusive America, emphasizing the need to adapt the…

What is mentioned in this MS NOW episode?

8 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including How Equality Wins, David Glasgow, Kenji Yoshino, Stonewall National Monument, NYU School of Law, Harvard University. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "Authors discuss book on new vision for equality amid Trump’s anti-diversity push"?

The episode runs 10 min; the transcript is about 1,744 words in 16 timestamped sections.

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