Transcript

Josh Shapiro on ICE in Minnesota, his personal faith, and winning swing districts in the midterms

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· 41 min · 7,593 words · 102 timestamped sections

This is the full, timestamped transcript of "Josh Shapiro on ICE in Minnesota, his personal faith, and winning swing districts in the midterms", an episode of NPR published January 26, 2026 (41 min, about 7,593 words). It mentions 8 people, works and ideas, including Josh Shapiro, Pennsylvania, Donald Trump, Where We Keep the Light, October 6th.

What this episode is about

Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro discusses the moral imperative to support the marginalized, critique the current administration's actions, and the importance of participating in elections to uphold democracy. He also reflects on his personal faith and its influence on his public service, as well as sharing insights from his memoir, where he recounts a traumatic event impacting his family's life.

Key takeaways

  • Faith isn't just a Sunday affair; it's a daily guide for those in service.
  • When cruelty reigns, compassion must mobilize—voting isn’t just a choice, it’s a powerful statement.
  • Strong leadership blends personal conviction with public service; open faith fosters unity across differences.
  • In a world rife with division, shared humanity is the bridge—love thy neighbor is the ultimate mantra.
  • Anti-Semitism's rise is a reminder: our vulnerabilities demand both courage and a collective moral response.

Who speaks in this episode?

What is discussed, and when

  1. – 5:00: Pennsylvania, Josh Shapiro, Where We Keep the Light, October 6th
  2. – 10:00: Pennsylvania
  3. – 15:00: October 6th, Pennsylvania, Hezbollah
  4. – 20:00: Donald Trump, Pennsylvania, ICE
  5. – 25:00: Pennsylvania, Donald Trump
  6. – 30:00: Pennsylvania
  7. – 35:00: Pennsylvania, Donald Trump, Where We Keep the Light
  8. – 40:00: Pennsylvania, Where We Keep the Light
  9. – 40:55: Josh Shapiro, Pennsylvania

Notable quotes from "Josh Shapiro on ICE in Minnesota, his personal faith, and winning swing districts in the midterms"

  • Message that we do not accept the chaos and the cruelty and the corruption of this administration. Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro was on the vice presidential short list in…
    about Josh Shapiro · at
  • Differently. but in a way perhaps to offer some comfort or some guidance to others. I think it's important that folks know that there's something that grounds the people who…
    about Pennsylvania · at
  • Time supported a two-state solution. It feels like we are far from that now, but I want to remain committed to that. I think that's one piece of it. The second piece of it is…
    about Donald Trump · at
  • Netanyahu government and expressed my views on what needed to happen in Israel, expressing my views on the need to wipe Hamas out and express my views on the need for the…
    about Hamas · at
  • Are being dispatched to a community violating the constitutional rights of individuals. What you see with ICE are people who are harming that trust and making communities less…
    about ICE · at

Who and what is mentioned in this episode?

People

  • Josh Shapiro — Person · Main guest · 3 mentions · first at
    Interview subject discussing his faith, political violence (arson attack), governance in Pennsylvania, and his legal/political response to the Trump administration.
  • Donald Trump — Person · Referenced political figure / subject of criticism · 6 mentions · first at
    Central antagonist in the discussion: Shapiro describes suing the Trump administration, criticizes its policies (ICE actions, alleged cruelty), and discusses election-related litigation and midterm interference concerns.

Books & papers

  • Where We Keep the Light — Book · Primary recommendation · 3 mentions · first at
    Governor Shapiro's memoir, which discusses his faith, the arson attack on his residence, and his views on politics and service.
    The Democrat has a new memoir out called Where We Keep the Light. And in the book, he talks about the arson attack on the Pennsylvania governor's residence that happened just hours after his family's Passover seder. We went to.

Companies & orgs

  • ICE — Company · Case study · 1 mention · first at
    Discussed in the context of federal enforcement actions and their impact on communities, particularly in Minnesota.

Concepts & topics

  • Hamas — Concept · Key argument · 5 mentions
    Mentioned in the context of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and Governor Shapiro's views on foreign policy and anti-semitism.
  • Hezbollah — Concept · Key argument · 1 mention · first at
    Mentioned alongside Hamas in the context of Middle Eastern politics and terrorism.
    Netanyahu government and expressed my views on what needed to happen in Israel, expressing my views on the need to wipe Hamas out and express my views on the need for the…

Places & events

  • Pennsylvania — Place · Setting · 20 mentions · first at
    The primary location discussed in the podcast, where Governor Josh Shapiro serves and where significant events like the arson attack occurred.
  • October 6th — Event · Core topic · 3 mentions · first at
    Referenced as a pivotal moment that influenced Governor Shapiro's openness about his faith and views on anti-semitism.
    In the last several years, particularly in the wake of October 7th, as there are some who are more afraid to have outward expressions of their faith, I have.

Full transcript with timestamps

You don't have to practice my faith to know that we as a society should be looking to clothe the naked and feed the hungry and look out for the poor. Instead, this administration's demonstrated cruelty to them. We know that they are going to try and undermine the midterms again with their conspiracy theories and with their bogus lawsuits. We are already seeing them try to undermine the rule of law and undermine our elections. show up and vote in record numbers and that will send a message that we do not accept the chaos and the cruelty and the corruption of this administration. Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro was on the vice presidential short list in 2024 and many expect he'll run for president himself in 2028 and in the meantime he's running for a second term as governor this year.

The Democrat has a new memoir out called Where We Keep the Light. And in the book, he talks about the arson attack on the Pennsylvania governor's residence that happened just hours after his family's Passover seder. We went to Shapiro's hometown, Abington, Pennsylvania to talk about all of it.

Governor Josh Shapiro, thanks for talking to us. Great to be with you. Good to have you back in Pennsylvania.

I'm thrilled to be back here. Um, you read a lot about faith in this book and you've talked a lot about faith over the last few years and

you're thoughtful about it and in the book you admit that at times you've struggled that you've kind of thought a lot about what your role as a public official especially in this moment how that how that affects the way that you personally think about your Judaism. Can can you tell me more about how you've thought about that and how that's maybe changed you in your personal life? You know, my faith is just interwoven in in everything I do. Um, my faith calls me to serve and to try and repair the world. My my parents raised me that way.

It's the way Lori and I are trying to raise our four children. My faith is something that I think about constantly and also never think about. Let me explain what I mean by that. It it's sort of infused in who I am. It it it is just natural to me. My faith is something I draw inspiration from to serve, but it's not something that I think about, reflect on, cite biblical passages for. Yeah.

To make my daily decisions, if that makes sense. In terms of how I've approached my faith, I've always viewed it as a a very personal thing.

Um, and in many ways, a very private thing. Not because I wasn't proud of it, but because I I didn't think it was sort of relevant to speak about or or share. In the last several years, particularly in the wake of October 7th, as there are some who

are more afraid to have outward expressions of their faith, I I have felt a responsibility to be more open about what I believe and why I believe it. Mhm.

Not at the exclusion of anyone else who might think differently or believe differently. Um but in a way perhaps to offer some comfort or some guidance to others. I think it's important that folks know that there's something that grounds the people who serve them and fight for them every day and and work for them every day. And uh I'm proud of who I'm I am. I'm proud of my faith and I'm proud of how it's guided me into this life of service. I want to ask about more ways that that this has kind of come out in your public roles, but I'm also curious like as you found yourself talking about it more, answering questions like this one right now, have you reflected like, okay, do I need to take this more seriously at home? Do I need to think about this differently at home? Has there been any way that you yourself have kind of rethought that in this moment, especially thinking about anti-semitism

and all the other all the other dynamics that we're talking about? You know, it's interesting. I I think in some ways it's been more of an opportunity for me to be introspective.

Yeah. For me to um find a a deeper connection to my faith. Even though, and you might you might find this somewhat uh conflicting.

Even though I I probably spend less time in places of worship today than I did say when I was growing up.

Yeah. To me, faith has become less connected to, say, the dogma of religion and religious practice and more um a connection to not only the way I was raised and and what I was taught, but the shared humanity that I think um all people have. you know, I I I'm very open about who I am and my faith and I go to communities across Pennsylvania, many of which you have visited um from time to time in in your prior life where there aren't a lot of people that pray like me or or um sort of think like me when it comes to religion. And yet being open about my faith has created an even deeper bond with others, allowing us to find that shared humanity, allowing us to find that common purpose. Um, which really when you boil it down is to love thy neighbor. Now, there's lots of different ways to do that and for it to be manifested, but for me, I think being as open about my faith as I have been has in some ways drawn me closer to people,

been more introspective and somewhat less connected to places of worship, if you will.

And at the same time, we have seen a rise in anti-semitism on the right, a rise on the left, a rise in the way that's hard to politically quantify. and the governor's res residence is attacked in an arson an arson attack hours after you've celebrated um a Passover seder. You as a public official had dealt with this a lot, you were attorney general during the horrific tree of life massacre, but I'm wondering did you think about this moment differently in any way once you realized that you and your family had been targeted partially because of the fact that you were Jewish?

I've thought about it differently in so many ways. Um, one, your initial reaction in that split second is make sure my wife and kids are safe.

Follow the directions of the police and the firefighters. And then once you know you're at least in a safe place while watching part of the governor's residence, you know, burn down, you then immediately think, well, what happened? Why did this happen?

Yeah. Were we targeted? And to be honest with you, in the first minutes, we assumed that there was a fire in the kitchen or some accident that led to this. It wasn't until a few moments later where we learned that it was a targeted attack.

And my first reaction was, "How do I explain this to my kids? How do I come from my wife? H how am I just going to be a good father and husband?" And there's no textbook on this. And so Lori and I just decided we were going to answer our kids' questions as forthrightly as we could, tell them everything we knew. One of the questions that I still, frankly, have a hard time answering to this day is when our then 14-year-old son, Ruben, asked me, "Did someone do this to us because we're Jewish?"

Yeah. And I what I found in the days after knowing that we had been targeted at least in part uh you know the attacker said because of our faith. What I found from others was just an extraordinary amount of love and light that came from so many different corners of our commonwealth, our country, actually around the globe. and people from all different faiths, all different walks of life, sharing the most personal and deep and meaningful and sometimes faith-based messages with us.

Mhm. For someone who grew up praying every day and and still to this day do that again, less in places of worship, more in private moments. I never until that moment felt the power of prayer from others. And I know that may sound strange, but when you have people praying for you,

particularly people of different faiths, it really offered Lori and I and our kids just extraordinary strength and comfort. I felt that those prayers helped lift us up and get us through that and allow me to be a better dad, a better husband, and ultimately I think a better governor having come through that process.

You've t you were doing it before, but you've talked even more about anti-semitism and political violence since then. And I want to talk about a tension point with that that a lot of people, I think, have been thinking about and struggling with. You yourself have been pretty critical of the Netanyahu government and how it has carried out aspects of the war in Gaza

for years. for years. And you also um I know this came up when you were dealing with the protests that were happening at the University of Pennsylvania. A lot of people who are critical of the Israeli government feel like at times criticism of the war effort can be conflated with the broader trends of anti-semitism. And I'm wondering how you as a public official, as someone this is personal to, how you separate or don't separate those two, how you think about those two different things.

Yeah. Look, I I'm a proud American Jew. Um, and I also have strong views on Israel and the Middle East.

Um, but you don't have to be Jewish to have strong feelings on that. And I know you weren't asking the question in that way but

to me, I I view this is two very separate things. Um, I view our foreign policy, whether in the Middle East or in Europe or Greenland or anywhere else, through the prism of, you know, what is best for the United States.

Yeah. what's in our national security interest, what's in our economic interest, what advances the cause of freedom.

Yeah. And so for me, having um a strong Israel in the Middle East is essential to that,

but so is having a two-state solution where the Palestinians have a homeland side by side with Israel, where they both recognize the right to exist, where terrorists, terrorism groups, terrorist groups, pardon me, like Hamas and Hezbollah, the Iranian regime are are wiped out and are not in positions of power and authority. I have for a long time supported a two-state solution. It feels like we are far from that now, but I want to remain committed to that. I think that's one piece of it. The second piece of it is anti-semitism and protest for those who want to seek some change in the world. And let me focus specifically on the Middle East because that's that was the heart of your question.

I think what we saw, and I know Penn got most attention, but we had protests on campuses all across Pennsylvania. What we saw by and large were peaceful protests.

People who were upset about what they were seeing in Gaza. I was upset about what we were seeing in Gaza, the loss of life and the the hunger and the lack of humanitarian aid. And by and large, most of those students were peacefully protesting, following the rules of whatever the university or the local jurisdiction were. There were some incidents where Jewish kids were denied access to class or to their dorm room, were assaulted on campus, um had their religious uh you know, garb or necklaces or what have you, jewelry ripped off of them. That's not okay. That's against the law. Yeah. And I was very outspoken about the fact that our universities had not just a moral responsibility but a legal responsibility to protect all students on campus. And when you protect those students on campus, you have to protect those who are protesting peacefully. And you've got to protect those who just simply want to live

openly as American Jews and go to class or go to their dorm or or, you know, go watch a game or whatever the case may be. And so I I think it is possible to carry on two conversations at the same time. Voiced my strong opposition to the Netanyahu government and expressed my views on what needed to happen in Israel, expressing my views on the need to wipe Hamas out and express my views on the need for the Palestinian people to have their own homeland and also be someone who protects first amendment rights and protects people's freedom and safety on campus. So is that to you as a public official, as a governor, when you decide to step in, when you decide to speak out, is is is that the line of is this something that becomes an identity attack, becomes a violent threat as opposed to just a conversation about policy? Like it feels like there's a clear line there.

Yeah, I I want to make sure I'm answering your question. I'm not sure I fully follow. I mean, I think I I tried to be very outspoken about my policy views and many ways, Scott, and you pointed this out. you know, my views on the Netanyahu government um were the same pre-occtober 7th and post October 7th in that I thought he's a bad leader. I thought he's taking Israel down a dangerous and isolated path and um I don't get a vote there, but certainly I'd like to see a different government and I I hope the people of Israel do that. I also think he was undermining um US interests at times as well.

I think anti-semitism is a separate conversation in many ways. And you know, for me, post October 7th, seeing the fear in some people's eyes about living openly their faith and practicing openly their faith, the number of people who came over to me um and said how scared they were and how they found comfort in the fact that I could live openly with my faith in the position that I'm in. um put on me a and and I I guess I put this on myself a feeling of responsibility.

Yeah. To be open about who I am um to speak out about anti-semitism and to be purposeful about doing that work. I thought it was interesting, I'm forgetting if this was specifically in the book or when you've been talking about this, that you have said, and I think I think you did write this, that you gave those remarks the day after the fire and you spoke very forcefully about my family's going to have another seder dinner tonight.

And you said that that wasn't really something that was planned. It just kind of came out in the moment that you've like very shortly before the press conference, you realize like, no, this is very important to me. This is something I feel strongly about. After getting my family to safety early in those the early morning hours and getting them back uh to a safe place, I returned to the governor's residence. And when I got there, um I was briefed by law enforcement. Yeah.

On what had transpired. I've been through hundreds of law enforcement briefings as attorney general and as governor. What was so different about this one was while I was being briefed as the governor, I was also the victim here.

And so it was very different. And I I listened to the briefing and then was preparing to make some remarks to the media. And what I would normally do in a situation like that is tell the public everything I know.

Yeah. Because you want to calm nerves and you want folks to know what they need to know to keep themselves safe.

Yeah. this was different. And so I had some prepared remarks and instead just spoke from the heart. And I wanted people to know that I was not afraid. I wanted people to know that nothing was going to deter me from doing my job as governor and nothing would deter me from practicing my faith. It was important for me to say that because political violence while targeted at one particular individual is designed to stoke fear in a broader community. Sometimes that broader community is a particular political party or faith or ideology.

And so I wanted people who I knew were scared to know that I wasn't and that they should go forward. and I wanted them to see that even though we wouldn't be able to return to the governor's residence for that seder, we were still going to do a second seder.

I want to shift gears and talk about uh what you write about about your time as attorney general. You're attorney general, Donald Trump is president, now you're governor, Donald Trump is president. You write a lot about how you thought about when to join lawsuits, when to bring lawsuits, and you didn't join every single one, right? you were you were pretty thoughtful about I think this is a legal issue as opposed to a political issue. You're in a different job now, but I'm wondering are you thinking about your role in responding to the Trump administration in the same way now as governor? Yes.

Has your thinking changed a little bit as President Trump's policies have changed.

I'll speak generally and then you can ask me about any particular case if you'd like.

I view it as my job to be a protector for the people of Pennsylvania. I took an oath of office to do that. I took an oath to uphold the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania and be a protector for all 13 million Pennians.

Yeah. So, if someone's going to mess with a Pennian, they're going to have to go through me. And that includes the president of the United States. So for me, every single time he does something to harm a Pennsylvania, take away funding, undermine our civil liberties, whitewash our history, and there's so many other examples, probably too many for our time here today, where there is a direct nexus to the Commonwealth. I stand up

most of the time in a court of law. Uh, I've filed 19 lawsuits so far. Haven't lost a single one. Returned over $3 billion of taxpayer money to the Commonwealth that the Trump administration has tried to strip away. I think that's one piece of it. The second piece of it is trying to be a voice for freedom, for liberty, for democracy. Something that Donald Trump and his enablers are eroding every single day. I'm sure we'll get a minute to talk about what's happening in Minnesota with ICE and and other issues of the day, but you know, you can't go through a single day without seeing this administration and their enablers. We can't forget the enablers

who are undermining our freedoms and our rights. And as the governor of the place um where our democracy was born, I feel a certain responsibility to stand up and speak up and where necessary go to court to stop them.

Let's talk about ICE and what's happening in Minnesota right now. Minnesota, just the latest example of a series of different locations over the last year or so. How do you think about that line? Is this legal versus do I like this or not like this when it comes to what we're seeing play out with ICE and with other federal agents in Minneapolis?

Well, first off, if you want to have safe communities, you've got to build trust between law enforcement and the people that they serve and protect. I made a commitment as governor to hire 2,000 police officers and invest hundreds of millions of dollars in violence prevention initiatives to create more trust between the community and law enforcement. And it's working. We've nearly hired all 2,000. I think we're at,900. We'll surpass that number. Um violent crime is down 12% in Pennsylvania. Fatal gun violence is down 43% in Pennsylvania. What we're doing is working. When Donald Trump deploys, whether it's the National Guard or ICE into a community where a mayor or a governor does not want them there, he immediately erodess the trust that exists in a community. And instead of making communities safer, which is what they claim they want to do, they actually create danger in a community.

You saw that with the loss of life of Renee Good. Yeah. And so to me, this is about community safety, public safety first and foremost. And this president is eroding that trust. From my vantage point as a governor, what can I do? Number one, where they deploy troops against the law. I will take them to court to stop them. I've been very vocal about not letting the president take the Pennsylvania National Guard away from my command and deploy it for other purposes. And so far we've been successful at that.

Second, we have strong law enforcement obviously through Pennsylvania State Police, but also with our municipal police departments that we coordinate closely with. We do not want ICE coming in eroding that trust. I think what you're seeing with ICE um are people who are being dispatched to a community violating the constitutional rights of individuals. What you see with ICE are people who are harming that trust and making communities less safe. Hell, they just used a five-year-old boy, 5-year-old boy Liam, to bait his parent into coming into the arms of ICE. A parent who was here apparently in a legal process, a child who did nothing wrong.

That episode to me demonstrates a cruelty of this administration and understand ICE is carrying out the directions that Donald Trump, JD Vance, Christy Gnome, and the rest of them are giving them.

I should just say that you and I are having this conversation within a few hours of the initial press reports about that. So, we don't know what else is going to come out about that in the coming days, but obviously pretty shocking headlines for a lot of people. and and and I I appreciate that caveat because there may be more information to come out, but here's what I know. It is cruel for an ICE enforcement official to put their hands on a 5-year-old child and use that child to try and bait that parent out of a home.

So if and when we see this kind of federal presence in Pennsylvania, which so far has not happened to the scale that we've seen in Minnesota and California and other states, like what to you are your top priorities? Because can you as the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania stop from happening in the moment? Can you as the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania do anything in terms of tensions with protesters? Like what do you use as your triage list if and when you are dealing with the same thing that Tim Walls is dealing with right now? I'm going to be really forthright with you in this interview to a point in the sense that I'm not going to share with you all of our plans. I'm not going to share with you um how we're tabletop exercising all these different scenarios.

Is that a thing you're doing though? Absolutely. Um and is something we have been doing for months and months both at the state level and coordinating with our local partners and where we can with our federal partners as well. As a former chief law enforcement officer of this Commonwealth, I know how important that coordination is and we are prepared. We're prepared should we need to go to court to stop them by getting a court order and we're prepared um out in the community to be able to uh protect our citizens. My fundamental responsibility is to keep people safe.

The president's fundamental responsibility is to keep the American people safe. And what we're seeing him do in communities across this country, particularly in Minneapolis, is making people less safe. Have you have you had hypothetical conversations about what happens if that leads to federal subpoenas for you and your staff as we've seen in Minnesota?

We we are prepared, I believe, as best as we can. Look, if the president of the United States decides he wants to deploy troops under his command, he's going to have a lot of latitude in that space, but we've got um constitutional rights. We've got judicial orders that I think we would be able to secure. And we also have police departments here in this commonwealth who work closely with the community where the community trusts them who I believe are going to stand up and and protect their communities as well.

You mentioned you mentioned having those kind of tabletop conversations. That reminds me of something that one of your peers uh Governor Gretchen Whitmer told uh one of my colleagues Stevens in a recent interview. She said that government that that Democratic officials are having conversations about this year's midterm elections and that there's real concern based on based on what we've seen in the past, what sort of statements we've seen from the Department of Homeland Security, from the president and others, there's real concerns about election integrity and election interference and intimidation.

Are you part of those conversations? What can you tell us about that? I am. And and without obviously divulging my private communications with other governors, and by the way, I have immense respect for Governor Whitmer. I think she's one of the finest governors in the country and a really good friend. We know that this president has lied about our elections. Um, he took me to court. He and his allies took me to court 43 different times to try and overturn the 2020 election. By the way, I went 43 and0. They went 0 and 43. We had a free and fair, safe and secure election. We've had elections here in Pennsylvania where sometimes Democrats win, sometimes Republicans win.

Sometimes Trump wins and sometimes Trump loses. We know that they are going to try and undermine the midterms again with their conspiracy theories and with their bogus lawsuits. We will be prepared again. We are already seeing them try to undermine the rule of law and undermine our elections. Let me explain. They asked recently, demanded, I should say recently, um, all of the private voter information for Pennians, about 9 million or so registered Pennsylvania voters. And by the way, not just Scott Detro and what party you're registered for and how many times you voted, that's publicly available, but all of Scott's private information that the state has a legal responsibility to protect. We refused to turn that over because I believe they're going to use it for nefarious purposes. And we were sued by the Department of Justice to compel us to provide that information.

We still haven't. We're going to continue to battle in court to protect the private information of the citizens of Pennsylvania. That's just one example of how I believe they're preparing to ramp up to trying to undermine the midterms. And I think these midterms are incredibly important. And and

they're important to you. You're on the ballot. I am on the ballot, but I I think it is broader than me. And I look, I hope the good people of Pennsylvania return me to this position, which I just feel honored to serve them in. But I think right now you you have people who and I'm sure you've heard this too, who who can't I mean this with the most respect, who can't handle the news, who who just want to shut it off and they want to pull the covers over and they want to retreat. And what I would say to them is now is a time to engage, not to retreat. And the best way we can engage is by using our power. Sometimes our power is engaging with people online. But for all of us, the power we have is the power to vote.

And so whether you're privileged to live in a swing state like Pennsylvania or be in one of these swing districts, of which we've got four of them here in our commonwealth, or even if you're in one of these 8020 districts, show up and vote in record numbers. And that will send a message that we do not accept the chaos and the cruelty and the corruption of this administration.

Do you worry at any point, we just hit the one-year mark of this second Trump term and there's been a lot of big picture taking stock stories and and conversations. And one of the themes of the past year for a lot of people has been like the Democratic activism and engagement is just at a lower level than it was the first time around. Do you feel that? Do you worry about that?

I don't. And and I'm not disputing your reporting. I'm just telling you I don't feel that.

You don't see that? No. I in fact there are those who want to retreat, as I said before, who who can't handle the chaos and the cruelty of of this administration. Then when I talk to them and tell them, you know, you can't walk away. Now is a moment to engage. Um I have found them very willing to do that. They just need some direction. What can I do? How can I help? How can my voice matter? And what I let people know is you don't have to have a title next to your name to defend our democracy. our our history over the last 250 years, which we celebrate this year, the the birth of our democracy here in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, has been ordinary Americans, you know, rising up and demanding more and seeking justice and seeking a better life for their kids and their grandkids, standing up for our fundamental freedoms, expanding our freedoms. That is what we are facing again right now. And what I have seen

from activists is extraordinary peaceful protest, a willingness and a desire to do something. And I think the most important thing they can do is turn out in record numbers in this midterm.

I want to spend the rest of the conversation talking about something that's also a theme in this book. At some point in time, the country will do look forward. And I want to talk about the political future and how you think about your specific role in that. your party feels like it's every few years is having this kind of reckoning moment of there's there's this conversation and this tension happening right now of what's the best direction? What do voters want? Do they want do they want a populism? Do they want an anti-establishment um swell like we've seen in maybe New York City and elsewhere? Or do they want compromise?

Do they want common ground? Do they want working together? You've thought a lot about this and I think by and large you are in the we can work together camp. Do you ever worry that there's not as much interest in the working together camp at this moment in American politics that seems so dysfunctional?

Let me let me address both sides of it. The working together, but then also the the kind of broader theme about Democratic leadership in the country. Look, I I'm in, you know, probably the swingiest swing state in the country. Um, you know, our US Senate delegation is divided. Our congressional delegation is pretty divided. Our entire state legislature is divided by three seats.

Um I'm a Democratic statewide elected official. We've got Republican statewide elected officials. You don't get more divided, I think, politically than Pennsylvania. And I work with a divided legislature every day. And we've worked together to make historic reforms. We've worked together to invest historic amounts in public education and public safety and economic development. We've got the only growing economy in the northeastern part of the United States. We've cut taxes seven times. We are proving that you can work together to get stuff done. And

it's not always easy. You've had some long budget impasses, but but at the end of the day, you got to stay at the table to get some. And I've I've gotten a lot more than I've given.

And the reality here is what I see from people on their farms in center city and their sprawling suburban communities. They want elected officials who are going to work their asses off for them to get stuff done. And that is what I do. And that is what we do here in the toughest state in the country to win in and govern in. When I look at the broader Democratic party, one, I'm look, I'm humbled that folks look to Pennsylvania as an example of the kind of leadership that we need to see more of. But I also look, you talk about people sort of on the, you know, on on different sort of ideological parts of the political spectrum. I'm encouraged by their leadership. I'm excited by their leadership. Democratic party doesn't have one leader now. We have a whole host of leaders and to me that's exciting. That's a good thing. That is not something to be fearful of. Our party will go through a process where we

will make a judgment as to ideologically what direction we want to go in and we will pick someone to lead our party forward in the next presidential election. But we can't ignore what is before us. And that is the challenge of showing up in these midterms, winning, sending a clear message to Donald Trump that we don't accept this chaos and this cruelty and this corruption. And we've got to make sure that we are working together to do that. And so I work with anyone uh anyone in my party, anyone in the other party to get stuff done for people, to advance the cause, and to stop the the danger of this administration in Washington.

Two things. first given the regulatory climate of the FCC. I appreciate you saying stuff and not what you often say when it comes to getting things done. So, thanks for that.

That was for the NPR listeners, you know. Um, second, you talk about the process of kind of picking a leader. I will say you're running for governor right now. You're running for reelection. This is the type of book that people write when they're thinking about running for president in two years. How are you thinking about 2028 at this moment in time? I I wrote this book because I think our politics are not meeting the moment or the needs of the people that a whole bunch of politicians represent. What do I mean by that? I I travel across this Commonwealth and and more and more across the country and I just see goodness.

I see people who are bringing light in their communities every single day, solving problems. I write about a number of the people

in this book and I wrote this book which of course was interrupted in many ways by the arson attack where we saw not only extreme darkness but extraordinary light.

Yeah. And I wrote this book to speak to that. Um, and I think it is important, I hope people will read this, to to recognize that um, our politicians need to do a better job of listening to the people and and learning from the great example that the people set in their communities every day. As for the future, you talk about the the the sort of heart and soul of the Democratic party and what's that going to look like? I want to have a voice in shaping that. I want to have a voice in shaping that as governor of Pennsylvania. I'm grateful for the chance to talk to someone like you about that. But I don't think anyone can look past the immediate term here this year.

All of the challenges I have as governor just of Pennsylvania and other leaders have in their jurisdictions, but most importantly these midterm elections. And that's all I'm going to focus on. That's all I think anyone should be focused on.

You talk about goodness. I'm also an optimist, but I see a lot of anger and I see a lot of darkness in our politics right now. And I see a lot of politicians who can't even be in the same room as the other side. And I'm just I'm just wondering like what is your thesis statement

for why everyone is so angry and why so many politicians who lean into division and the personal attacks are so popular and powerful right now.

I think division is popular in part because some of those elected leaders aren't taking cues from the people they represent. The kind of people I write about Yeah. in this book. Two, I think present company excluded. A lot of the media is out there fermenting that division,

encouraging the division to get added clicks or added eyeballs or added ears or however you consume your information.

Take them all right now. We'll take them all. And I think it is incumbent upon elected leaders and those who would be elected leaders not to appeal to the lowest common denominator but to appeal to the highest common denominator and the example being set by the people that they want to represent. To me, we are encouraging and incentivizing division in this country. In addition to traditional media outlets, you can look no further than social media where they literally monetize division where you have people who are not just encouraging that division but making a buck off of it.

I think politicians have to stop feeding into that and instead take their cues from the good people they represent.

On this topic, there was a profile of you in The Atlantic that came out a couple months ago that got a lot of attention. And there was kind of a thesis statement to exactly what we're talking about right now that I'd love to get you a chance to response to. Sure. Uh Tim Alberto, who wrote it, writes, "Shapiro refuses to admit that our politics have changed in ways that might just render his approach obsolete."

What do you make of that? How do you think about that? That's one journalist's opinion. I know what I preach and practice every day in Pennsylvania.

You follow the politics here. I think it seems to be working. Mhm. Uh I never take anything for granted, but we are um I think in a strong position to not only win elections, but most importantly get stuff done for people

because the kind of politics we practice does work and it's working in the toughest state in the country to win it.

Last question. And I'm wondering what your biggest concern is in the political moment right now and what gives you the most um what gives you most calm like what what what you feel is working well right now and but but but let me start with this. What to you is your number one concern? We've talked about we've talked about ICE. We've talked about the future of elections. We've talked about a very dark and violent political moment right now. like what to you is your top of mind of like when we're talking about democracy and the state of affairs in the United States, I'm most constant worried about X.

I I write in the book about our founders and the work they did not just at Independence Hall in Philadelphia. I'm pointing there because it's down the road that way. Um but the work they did before they got to Independence Hall in our taverns in our town squares building this democracy and ultimately writing the words on the parchment that have guided us forward over the last you know two two and a half centuries. The brilliance of their work is that they left a lot of the work to all of us, to the next generation to fill in those gaps, to make the changes, to do the hard work necessary to perfect our our union. That work falls to us now. And I believe that the people who are in charge in this administration in Washington and those who enable them are very quickly undermining that sacred pack that we have had as Americans to pick up the baton from those who came before us, carry it forward, and leave

this place a little bit better. Their self-interest and their selfdeing, their lack of respect for the rule of law is undermining our personal freedoms. and dare I say also um putting our democracy on the brink and that is why I think people not only need to take their cues from the community around them and our those who came before us who did this work to stand up rise up speak up do more because if we don't stand up right now and do this work if we don't save ourselves from the excesses and the danger of this administration then I fear that we will have failed to not only meet this moment we have failed our system and failed our democracy.

So given all that there's a book called where we keep the light where to you is the light in this moment politically speaking

and the people I visit with every day who even if they voted for the president they don't like the direction we're going in. They don't like the cruelty of taking food away from kids, snatching kids out of their parents' arms because their parents have a pending asylum application and they've broken no laws. They don't like the the cruelty that we are exhibiting to our fellow Americans, to our fellow neighbors. I talk in this book a lot about our shared faith. You don't have to practice my faith to know that we as a society should be looking to clothe the naked and feed the hungry and look out for the poor. Instead, this administration's demonstrated cruelty to them. I think what we're seeing domestically is an agenda of cruelty. And internationally, what we're seeing is a president that wants to isolate this country and make us less safe, I believe, at home. And so to me, if we are to feel optimistic

about this moment we're in, we should be taking our cues from the people I feel privileged to visit with every day. The people who have stood up to corporate greed and excess, the people who have stood up uh in in election time to say no to this. Looking back a little bit, it's the people who sat down at a lunch counter so the next generation could stand taller. the people who bravely put on a uniform and went overseas and landed on beaches in order to protect our freedom here at home. We need to listen to the people in the community.

We need to take our cues from those who came before us. And this is a moment where we all need to stand up and and stop what we're seeing. And so to me, even in this moment of darkness, darkness that you cover every day on this wonderful channel, I don't want us to see only darkness. I want us to see the light. And the light that I see comes from the people that I feel privileged to represent and be with every day.

Josh Shapiro, Governor of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. Thank you so much for talking to us.

Good to be with you. Thank you.

Questions about this episode

Who speaks in "Josh Shapiro on ICE in Minnesota, his personal faith, and winning swing districts in the midterms"?

Josh Shapiro (Guest).

What is "Josh Shapiro on ICE in Minnesota, his personal faith, and winning swing districts in the midterms" about?

Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro discusses the moral imperative to support the marginalized, critique the current administration's actions, and the importance of participating in elections to uphold democracy. He also reflects on his personal faith and its influence on his public service, as well as sharing insights from his memoir, where he recounts a traumatic event impacting his family's…

What is mentioned in this NPR episode?

8 people, works and ideas are mentioned, including Josh Shapiro, Pennsylvania, Donald Trump, Where We Keep the Light, October 6th, ICE. Each one on this page links to its own page with every episode that mentions it.

How long is "Josh Shapiro on ICE in Minnesota, his personal faith, and winning swing districts in the midterms"?

The episode runs 41 min; the transcript is about 7,593 words in 102 timestamped sections.

More from NPR

About this transcript: the episode's spoken words as captioned on YouTube, split into timestamped sections. Reclip.Me locates every person, work and idea in the text, keeps the time it is first named, and quotes the words around it verbatim. Last updated January 26, 2026.